Leah Remini: Scientology and the Aftermath (2016–…): Season 3, Episode 7 - The Collection Agency - full transcript
Mike, what church
has a book on finances?
- Right.
- This is how to extract money.
You have the area cashier. You
have department of income.
"Freeloaders".
"Collection from SPs".
This is what the IRS
accepts as non-commercial.
This is a church.
What they need to say
is "we are a business".
Actually, they need to
go one step further.
We're not just a business. We're
like a collection agency.
They come to your
house unannounced.
They tell you
mankind is at stake
if you don't give up this,
if you don't give up that,
and they pound you and pound...
"Why don't you kick
them out of your house?
Because you're like, "Well,
then they're gonna tell my kid"
"not to talk to me, or my
mom not to talk to me,
"or Scientologists,
"so I have to let
them in my house.
I have to let them in my job".
We talked to people before
about policies and practices
of Scientology in getting money.
It's so cutthroat,
- you... you would not believe it.
- But this is a church.
- It's a machine.
- It's a machine,
and it's all set up
to get maximum money out
of you, in and out.
But never really heard so
much of the personal stories
- of how this impacts people.
- Yeah.
And the people that we're
gonna talk to today
are just a small sample of
the thousands and thousands
who've given millions and
millions of dollars,
often money they didn't have,
to Scientology.
This is insane.
Tonight, we're talking to
Mark and Stephanie Fladd,
who were Scientologists
for a very short amount of time,
but Scientology,
in usual fashion,
extracted a large chunk
of money from you
to do Scientology.
I feel that the
Church of Scientology
took advantage of me,
and they are
financial predators.
I don't believe Scientology
is an honest organization.
Heather Ruggeri, who was a
Sea Organization member,
and so was her mother,
and her mother ended
up being taken
for $80,000 of inheritance...
They are only about
accomplishing
what they want to accomplish,
taking the money that they
need to take from people
so that they can get
their next venture done.
And Carol Nyburg, who...
You were... are what's called
a registrar for Scientology,
and so that was your job,
- to extract the money...
- Right.
From people, whether
they had it or not.
- Right.
- Yeah, got it.
There are a lot of promises made
by Scientologists...
You're gonna
constantly get better
and make more money...
And that doesn't happen.
And Tyler Adams, who was
also a Sea Org member,
who, in fact, lost his eye
as a Sea Org member
and left the Sea Organization
was handed a freeloader bill
to add, literally,
insult to injury.
The Church of Scientology
cares more about money
than... any kind
of enlightenment.
Welcome, everyone.
We appreciate you
joining us today.
- Thank you.
- Thank you.
We covered the subject
of Scientology and money
in our specials and in our show,
you know, very kind
of clinically,
like how Scientology is set up,
how there's this bridge,
how you have to pay in advance,
and it's not... negotiable...
And the fact that there's,
you know, a
department of income,
which also differs
from a real religion
in that they have
volumes of books
on how to extract money
from the very rich to
the average person.
It doesn't matter.
And people often ask us,
"How do people
afford Scientology?"
How do they afford
Scientology, Mike Rinder?
Um, by either joining the
Sea Org and not paying
or by living a life
that is really below
what their normal
means would be,
sacrificing a lot of what is,
to normal people in the...
in the normal world,
the normal things
that you do in life,
uh, for the sake
of participating in Scientology.
Right. So let's start
with Mark and Stephanie.
You guys... you were totally
sold on Scientology,
totally on board?
Totally on board
with Scientology.
And you were told
you need to buy
a certain amount of
Scientology pre-paid.
They sell these
things in packages,
which is from the bottom,
which is called the
Purification Rundown,
to Clear.
The Clear package was about
$35,000 for my package,
was what I was sold on.
- In advance, right?
- Right.
That's the first kind of chunk
that a registrar
would what... what's
called "reg" you for.
And are you millionaires?
- No.
- Not at all, no.
I didn't even have a credit card
that had a high limit on it.
You know, in my case,
the registrars
actually helped me
sign up for credit
cards to pay for it.
And what do they tell
you you're gonna get?
Yeah, yeah. Like,
paint the pic...
You know, 'cause you
make it sound nice.
You don't have the money.
You... I'm sure you told them
you didn't have the money,
- right?
- Yeah.
So they didn't "help" you
to get a credit card.
It started out...
Yeah, let your wife speak.
She... maybe you're too nice.
Uh, it started out
he went into the
Orange County Org,
he was there most of the night,
he brought two other
people back home with him
at 10:00 at night
to try and convince me
to be on board with buying
this Clear package.
I was like, "No, we need
to think about it".
"We don't have $35,000
just to hand over.
This is a big decision".
So they basically came to me
and to him daily.
They went to his work.
They would come to our house.
- Unannounced?
- Unannounced.
And I told them it's not okay
to show up at my
work unannounced.
There was three of
them that showed up.
They said, "Well, you know",
can we come over to your house?"
I'm like, "Yeah,
fine, whatever".
"You can... you can come over,
'cause I just don't want
you guys at my work".
They would make it all
sound all pretty.
"You're gonna be so
much better off,
you're gonna end up making
so much more money".
They always use that
as, like, saying,
"We just know, in
our experience,
"any time people give us money,
they get it back in the world".
Give us money. You'll get money,
and it's... it's a
complete disconnect.
Oh, yeah. You'll have
enough to buy a house,
but you will never do that,
because you're gonna
give us more money.
- Yeah.
- Yes.
Because even if you
make the more money,
or do get that more money,
that's only so that
we can take it.
Right, right.
So you know that you
don't have the money.
Yeah. Being a supportive wife,
I was like, "If he
wants to do it",
then we can pay
course by course,"
and the director, she was like,
"Oh, it's gonna be
so much more money".
I was like, "I understand that",
but I'm not forking out
$35,000 all at once".
And the "so much more money"
is because of the discounts
that are offered for buying...
- More, yeah.
- A pack... more.
"The more you buy,
the cheaper it is,"
- quote unquote.
- Yeah.
They would take him
to the org
and they would leave
me at the house,
and they would talk
to me at the house
and they would talk
to him at the org
and they did their best
to keep us separated
so we didn't have
to talk about it,
and we didn't discuss it
and decide not to do it.
They would tell me,
"He's so ready to do it.
He wants to do it.
"I know you're such
a supportive wife.
He just needs your okay".
They would tell him,
I really thought it
was a great idea
for him to go, and I think
it would be so great
for him to do it,
so they were playing us
- by keeping us so separated...
- Sure.
That we didn't even have
time to discuss it,
so we finally just
couldn't handle
the pressure anymore
and we okayed it,
and they were the ones
that signed us up
- for the credit cards.
- And you're...
You're nodding yes.
Is this usual, to take people
who don't have the
money for Scientology
and sign up for... Them
up for a credit card?
Yeah. A whole list of...
cards to call that
are easy to get.
It's, like, quite common
for... a public Scientologist,
such as they were, to give over,
to turn over the
mother's maiden name,
last four of your Social,
and all these kind of things
so that they can call
up and get more.
Uh, it's... basically, any
way you can get the money
is... is... is fair play,
but I thought the worst was
going to people's homes
unannounced, anytime.
It was your duty to
invade people's privacy.
So you give them the money,
- the $35,000.
- We finally give them
the $35,000.
I look straight at the
executive director
and I'm like, "Okay, this is
all we can do right now".
"Until he has gone to Clear,
I can't afford anything else,"
and she was like, "Okay,
you will not be asked
to pay for anything else".
We turn around, and
one week later,
they have him sign up as a
lifetime Scientologist,
which is, like, $5,000.
- The membership fee.
- Yes.
And then he comes
to me and says,
"You need to life repair".
So this is another
Scientology processing.
Yes.
And how much... How
much more money
are we talking now?
That was another
$7,500, I think.
So it was $35,000,
the $5,000 for the
IES membership,
and now this.
$7,500 for that.
And you gave it,
even if you didn't
have the money.
He said, "You're gonna
be a suppressive person"
if I reach Clear and you
haven't done anything.
And who told you that?
The executive director
was coaching me
on what to say to my wife
in order to convince her
to agree to life repair.
I see. So basically,
he was saying
"If you, Mark, reach Clear,
"and your wife's
down here still,
she's gonna hurt your life".
- Yeah.
- Exactly.
We would be too... distant,
uh, on the bridge.
You'd be so far superior
to her, spiritually,
you'll be so enlightened
and so amazing,
and your wife would just
be the dumb schmuck,
just being unknowing, right?
- Right.
- Yeah, okay.
So we had to get her life
repaired for that reason.
Gotta get her moving.
Gotta get her moving.
So you... you agree
to life repair.
- Yeah.
- Agree to life repair.
The only reason I agreed is
because he basically said,
"If you don't do life repair,
we're gonna have
to get a divorce".
He basically said,
"If you don't do life repair,
we're gonna have to
get a divorce..."
Which means separating
us and our kids.
How old were your
kids at this point?
At this point, they
were eight and four.
Basically, after he told
me I had to, we went in.
They do all those
questions and stuff.
I couldn't do it. It was...
I was crying leaving,
because I felt like
I was being forced
to do this
so that I could keep
my family together,
and I just never went back.
We've all been there.
There's no judgment here.
Okay.
Mark, you were still
on the bridge.
Yes, so I got through the
Purification Rundown.
I... I did complete that,
and I got onto the...
What's called the
Survival Rundown,
which is the next
step on the bridge,
and I was on that
for a few months.
"I was told," Oh, it's
only gonna take six months
"to... to go to Clear,
starting on the
Purification Rundown".
I was maybe four months into it
and I'm not even halfway
through the Survival Rundown.
I just realized it's not going
the way that they told
me it was gonna go.
I ended up going off
the Survival Rundown.
And you decide, "That's it.
We're done".
We don't want to be part
of this organization"?
- Yeah.
- Okay.
And then try to get
your money back, right?
'Cause you're not
gonna do it, right?
Um, I actually sent a letter
to the executive director,
um, asking for a refund.
Actually, we didn't get a
response to that letter,
and so we went in to the org
and tried to get a refund.
Well... well, technically,
in Scientology,
it's called a repayment,
and I know that this
is an odd distinction,
but you are actually
asking for money
to be returned to you
for things that you
have not done...
- Yeah.
- Like, that you have paid
- in advance for...
- As opposed to a refund...
Which is different than
asking for money back
for something that
you already did.
Right, and I was fine, you know,
for the courses I had taken.
- I was fine paying for that.
- You were fine
- paying for that, of course.
- I just wanted
a... a repayment on what
I had not taken yet,
which was, you know, the
majority of that money.
- We went in...
- You did more than just
write a letter, I assume.
We went in, we tried
to get our money back,
and they said as
soon as we leave,
we wouldn't be able to
ever get our money back.
And as a result?
And as a result, we left,
and we've never gotten
our money back.
I was told, though, as
I was leaving the org,
by the registrar that, you know,
I can use the money
in my next lifetime.
Shut...
Oh. I ca...
That's ridiculous.
I want you to just seriously...
Okay, ser... it's just
me and you talking now.
Yeah.
A person looked at you
and said, literally,
"You can use this money
in your next lifetime"?
- Yes.
- And your reaction?
You know, I had not been
through any of those courses
that taught that issue,
or that... that... topic.
You hadn't gained that...
- That...
- Certainty.
That... that ability yet
to return with your name
and... report back
to Scientology?
Right, right, I... I hadn't had
that in phenomena,
uh, so... I thought
it was a little nuts
that she said that, but that
was kind of her justification
that we're not getting
our money back.
"Well, you know, in
your next lifetime,
"you can come back
and use that money.
It'll still be there for you".
- You know, Mike...
- That is actually
the most bizarre one I've heard.
But Mike, here's the thing.
I mean, we do know that
they do have a policy.
- I mean, L. Ron Hubbard wrote...
- Sure.
- Yeah.
- On the clear cognition,
or whatever, there's
a policy that says,
you know, you should be
able to have the ability
to walk in, say the
person's name,
go find their folder
from another lifetime.
They've put out issues
about Sea Org members
that say they have a 21-year
leave of absence...
When they die. 21-year
leave of absence.
And that their folders
are to be stored
and kept in safekeeping
for their return.
So we... I mean,
we've read that.
Uh, I mean, I don't...
I just never heard
anybody actually say it.
Well, I've never heard
anybody justify it
as to "We're not giving
your money back"
"We're gon... doing you a favor
so you can save it up
for next lifetime".
That is... wow.
Okay, so all joking aside,
you guys had to sell your house.
This wasn't something
that was like,
"Oh, we just had
$50,000 laying around.
It's cool that we lost it".
Right, yeah. So I have
a house, a mortgage,
bills, and on top of that,
I'm trying to pay off
these high-interest
credit cards,
which are the debt from the org,
and that just kind of snowballed
uh, into a situation
where I did have
to sell my house
so that I... I could get
the money out of the house
to pay off the credit cards.
And then you guys had to move
to a different state
altogether, right?
- Because of the cost of living.
- Yes.
I mean, I wanted
to try to recoup
some of the financial losses,
but I also wanted to get my
children out of the area
where they could be
brought into Scientology
when they become of age.
I didn't want them
to be around that
and have to go through
what I went through.
Amazing.
I think it's... really
quite a loving gesture
towards your children
to think about not
wanting your kids
to be in an environment
where they could be found
by Scientology, or even other
Scientologists' children,
and then get indoctrinated
somehow that way.
And I can assure you
that everything that you
have explained to us
and Carol and Heather...
These guys will all confirm
that this is standard
operating procedure,
dictated by policy of L.
Ron Hubbard.
This goes on with...
With people like you,
it goes on with people
like her and the Sea Org,
people like... it doesn't
matter, because you learn.
You go, "Well, I
can't afford it.
Why would I be in debt to my...
religion?"
You think you're gonna
buy spiritual freedom.
- Right.
- But you're not.
In my opinion, the
Church of Scientology
is a real estate con
masquerading as a religion.
It proposes to be
about spirituality,
but it's not.
They focus more on
getting the money
out of their parishioners
than they do actually
helping them.
Now, Heather, tell us a
little bit about your story.
You and your mom
were in the Sea Org.
Yes, we were in the Sea Org.
I was in 24,5 years.
My mom was in for 25 years.
So while your mom
was in the Sea Org,
- she got an inheritance.
- Yes.
And... and just to set this up,
Sea Org members don't
usually have any money.
- Correct.
- Right?
- I mean, is that true?
- Yeah, yeah,
not even a little bit.
I think it paid
for eight months at one point,
just at all. It just... nothing.
And then, when you do
get paid, it's what?
- It can be nothing...
- $50 a week at best.
Or up to $50 a week.
Tax is taken out of that.
But don't forget, also,
that as a Sea Org member,
you have no IRA.
Your Social Security payments
that are deducted
from your check
is like 30˘ a week,
and it's why so
many elderly people
remain in the Sea Org...
Because now they can't work,
they're too old to get a job,
they don't have any money
that they have accumulated,
and they don't even have
any retirement income
or anything there
for the 50 years of work
that they've been doing.
- Right.
- So the only money
that your mother ever really saw
was this inheritance from
her non-Scientology mother?
- Correct, yes.
- So this amount
gets given to your mom while
she's in the Sea Org.
This must feel like...
I mean, you could eat,
you could maybe buy s...
A towel or soap.
Yeah, I mean, no. I mean it...
Listen, when I was
in the Sea Org
for the short amount of
time that I was there,
I mean, I was stealing
things like food.
Right.
I was stealing things
like a bar of soap,
you know, because
these things were not
- really allocated to us.
- You don't have them
- readily there.
- Yeah, these are luxuries.
- These are luxuries.
- So how did they
get the money from her?
So they basically coerced her
and told her
that if she did not
give this money,
about $77,000,
then you're going against
what's the greatest good.
So they told your mom
"If you don't give
us this $77,000,
you'll be hurting mankind"?
Where was that money going to
that... that Scientology
wanted it so bad?
At that time, it was
going towards projects,
I believe, they were doing
around the eastern United States
with organizations they
were trying to purchase.
And they needed
your mother's money
- to do so?
- Yes.
- Yes, it was...
- A billion-dollar organization
needs your... your Sea Org
member mother's money?
Yeah, I mean, and she was told
that you don't really
need this money.
- Put it towards...
- Something good.
What we're doing, yes.
Towards what we're doing here
in the Sea Organization.
But the way that it was done
was insane.
She had that money
in an annuity,
and she had to
withdraw it early.
But that also comes
with tax implications.
- Wow.
- Yes, so then
the IRS was sending notices
that she had to pay this money
and her wa... or her wages
were gonna be garnished
for the taxes,
and those notices
never arrived to her.
So after 25 years, she leaves
the Sea Organization...
Not with me, just on her own...
She gets a job,
and then suddenly, she's told
that her wages are
gonna be garnished
because she didn't get
these notices earlier
from the IRS,
so the little money that
she started making...
Yeah, was being taken
away from her.
Was being taken away from her.
At that point, I was
very riddled with, like,
"Do I stay or do I go with her,
"because she's my mom
and I need to be with her?"
so I made the decision
myself to escape as well,
and she is basically
now faced with...
She has to work the
rest of her life,
and now she's 71, still working.
Did she try to get
her money back?
We have sent letters. She was...
It was responded
to once, in 2012,
said, "Thank you
for your letter".
"As your... per your request,
"your membership to the
IAS has been canceled,
"but we are not gonna
refund your money,
because it's a donation".
Because she's still
trying to get that money,
that's why I'm here.
I'm representing her.
Your mother's not here
because she believes
that her only hope
is not appearing
on a show like this?
- To get her money back?
- Not the...
Just that it would mess up
the chances of her
getting it back.
Does she think she
has a chance now?
I don't know.
- She's hopeful.
- Yeah.
- You know?
- That's what's so sad.
- Yeah, right.
- I... I mean, it really is.
Is that your mother
still believes
- in some process, yeah.
- It's sad that... that...
That in this circumstance,
that your mother
is still looking
for the good. Leah and I...
we have people
contact us all the time
with these sort
of circumstances,
and they're afraid
to say anything,
because they think that
if they say something,
it is gonna be the straw that
breaks the camel's back,
that will forever prevent them
from getting their family back,
or their money
back, or whatever.
- Yes.
- I wish there was some reason
for her to have hope about this.
- Right.
- There isn't.
To me, it's completely criminal
that she has to be
going through this.
- You know?
- Yes, after she served
Scientology for so many years,
- received nothing for it.
- Right.
You've received nothing for it.
I mean, it's... It's my
burden now, that I...
'cause I'm her
daughter, and I am...
I should be helping
to take care of her.
My burden is with my no
high school education,
get somewhere in life
to make enough money
so I can help her
so she can retire,
because I don't
want to see that.
It's not right.
No husband anymore, 'cause
he stayed, you know?
No daughter... my sister.
- She stayed?
- She stayed, you know, so...
- And you have no connection?
- No.
The Church of Scientology
will go to great lengths
to get you to pay up.
There's practically no limits.
They don't care about whether
the person has the money or not.
Your situation is
used against you
for paying more money.
They took our money
and made it out
that they were going
to be helping us,
and really, they just...
threw us aside.
Looking back on it, isn't it...
It's... we're still
going through this,
where we go, "I cannot believe"
"this is something
I gave my life to,
and look how the
destruction of..."
not just financially, right,
but it's like your whole...
Your mom's life was taken...
- Right, right.
- By this thing.
And now your whole family's
destroyed over it.
- Yeah.
- You're a mom.
Could you imagine doing
this to your daughter?
No. I mean...
My daughter means
the world to me,
and my family
that I've gained now
through my husband
ha-has been a support system
that's unbelievable.
To look back at that,
I don't understand it.
It makes no sense to me,
and it's just pure insanity.
That's why I have
done everything
to make sure I'm there for her
and I raise her right
- She deserves that.
- Of course,
- but that's not Scientology.
- No, it is not.
It is so far removed.
Okay, so let's talk about
when you... you were
in the Sea Org.
Yeah, yeah, I joined
straight from 18
uh, after being educated
in Scientology schools.
How did you lose your eye?
Demolitions,
within the first month
of being in the Sea Org.
Uh, we were building
new living spaces
in the big blue building on...
Fountain, on...
- In Hollywood.
- In Hollywood.
Um, it was on the sixth floor.
It was the main section
of the building
where the elevators are.
We got a couple of crates
of hammers and gloves
for 200 people,
dim string lights
to light the area
as, you know, the electrical
was disconnected.
We're not just, like,
chipping away at things.
No, we're throwing
ourselves into the walls,
ripping out the
ceilings by hand.
We did not have the tools.
We were yanking
everything apart by hand,
- 'cause we gotta get it done.
- Right.
So... some of my
friends at the time
yanking apart a
track-and-stud wall
that had some copper pipe in it.
You know, happened like that.
It was just wrong
place, wrong time.
Screamed really loud.
Um...
I... so it... yeah, sorry.
I got kind of lost
- in the moment, but...
- No, it's all right.
It wasn't... It's
not just the eye.
I went to the doctor
or the hospital
for stitches or
something or another
every six months.
Um, I tore open my hand,
I got a nice scar along my leg
from a saw that
was dropped on me
by... by another worker.
So, like, you're saying
all these injuries...
How did these injuries happen?
I mean, were you...
You don't know how to
work a saw, do you?
Did you go to school for that?
Safety?
I didn't go to
school for that, no.
I... I was given a manual
- and I... yeah.
- But you're... you're told
from a... right
from the beginning
that you've done
everything already,
- sometime on your time track.
- Before, in another lifetime.
- Yes, another lifetime.
- Yeah, you just gotta remember
- how to do it.
- You know how to do it.
- You've run planets before.
- Right.
Yeah, yeah. Or blown them up.
- Whatever the case may be.
- Yeah, sure, sure.
- So you're... you're...
- So you can really do it.
- You just...
- Yeah, yeah.
- You just need to remember.
- Yeah.
And, you know, we should
set out for people
- that these are children...
- Oh, yeah.
- These are people like you.
- Anybody.
You guys work, you know,
8:00 in the morning
till midnight, sometimes
all-nighters...
You know, on top of just sort of
the general lack of
reasonable training,
you know, there's no
real safety equipment.
The safety glasses
that were available
were all scratched up,
unable to be seen
through in low light,
you know, dust everywhere.
If I was wearing safety glasses,
we might be having a
different conversation
- right now.
- Right, and that...
That, by the way...
That was happening
- when Mike was in the Sea Org...
- Yep.
As a child. It would happen
when I was in the Sea Org.
I mean, all of us kids
were... had no gloves,
no nothing. Nothing, nothing.
He represents, and they
represent, thousands.
- Yeah, absolutely.
- I mean, they represent...
And... and current children
in the Sea Org, and not just children.
Adults.
I just want to comment
about, you know,
you'd think, in any
situation like that,
or anything close,
we would call 911.
We wouldn't even think about it.
Somebody... probably,
we'd all take our phones
and start calling 911.
But nobody in that
situation would,
because we would think,
"Oh, we'd have to... We
have to get permission".
So again, nobody called...
so after getting bandaged up,
I was, you know, taken
to the emergency room.
I got a security guard.
I got three people
in black-and-gray uniforms.
I'm wearing black and gray.
"What were you doing
demolishing a building
at 9:30 at night?"
Did they prep you
before you left?
Before the interview,
I was just told,
"Yeah, don't... Don't
cause a flap".
I've seen this many times.
The person who was
actually being admitted
just sits there and the handlers
take care of everything
to avoid...
creating the idea
that there was
some irresponsible
or inappropriate
activity happening
on behalf of the organization.
It was the person who was doing
something that was
inappropriate or wrong.
Yeah, so, I mean, I
didn't even have
a conversation with a
medical professional
until, like, I'm on the
table, or the next day.
But after this eye accident...
Let me just be clear,
you went back on
this labor camp?
Yeah, as soon as I
wasn't actively needing
to irrigate my eye every day,
actively needing
to wear a bandage,
I was back to work, you know,
rewiring the building.
- Back in the Sea Org?
- Yeah, you know,
raised to be a true believer,
you keep going.
And what about your...
Your mom and your da...
Like, where are you
parents at this point?
- Are they, like...
- My mom is a big part
of the reason why I
ended up getting out,
as she ended up being
diagnosed with cancer,
uh, after I lost my eye.
Uh, long story short, I
had to ask permission
to go visit her, and I
was able to do that
with... with a handler.
Then... later, as time went on,
um, she had to start an
experimental treatment,
so I wrote up another request.
"I'd like to see my
mom again, you know?
"I might not be able
to see her again
for too much longer,"
and that request was denied,
so...
one day, I just left
out one of the...
The, uh back doors of
the parking structure
opposite of the...
The blue building.
I just left and beelined
for the train station
and then, from there, I was
able to contact my mom,
uh, and arrange a meeting
and even then,
just hanging out, having
some quality family time,
security rolls up, and
it's like, "Hey",
it's time to come back".
I was... I was threatened
with... being kicked out,
and I called them on it.
It's like, I'm... I'm not
having a good time here.
Look, I... I want to go.
I'm out.
And then were you handed a
freeloader's debt from this?
Yep, yeah.
It was because of the
coursework I'd done
as a regular Sea Org member
that they then bill for.
The stuff that I needed to
do in order to do my job
that they were assigning me,
so they were charging
me for the training
that they gave me that
was job-specific.
After all this on routing out,
I have to sign a
stack of affidavits
about how... I acknowledge
that everything that
happened that was bad to me
- was not...
- Was your fault.
Was... was my fault, ex...
more or less.
- Right.
- And then a bill, first thing,
pay off this freeloader debt,
and it was about $40,000.
Oh, my gosh.
So you gave them your life,
you gave them your eye,
- you couldn't see your mom...
- They took my eye.
And they go, "Hey",
"okay, get out, but by the way,
"before you go, we have a gift,
- and that's a bill for $40,000".
- Yeah.
Oh, and I'm not allowed
to stay in Los Angeles.
I had to go to Boston.
You're not allowed to
live in Los Angeles?
- Yeah.
- 'Cause you... you would
- infect the group?
- I would infect the group...
- With truth.
- Or get close to my mom,
or whatever the case may be,
so I had to go stay
with my dad at first.
I made a couple payments
of, like, 100 bucks
here and there,
but it... after that,
um, it got to the point
where I just stopped
taking calls.
And is this usual? I
mean, is this usual
for registrars to
be calling people
trying to get this...
Extract this freeloader's debt?
- I mean...
- Oh, absolutely. Yeah.
And what is the purpose
of their paying it?
And you can be in good standing
and you can come onto the base.
You could talk to your
family and friend?
That... that feeds into it.
But the field staff
member who was...
Tried to get the money...
Him to pay it gets
a commission...
On that money.
- Yeah.
- So again,
I don't know what organization
calling itself a church
has departments
of sales teams...
Most businesses don't have that.
You worked in a sales department
even going every...
- Every day on the base.
- Every day you woke up,
- that was your job, right?
- That's right. Yeah.
- Oh, yeah.
- You worked with the...
The kings and queens
of extracting money
- from Scientologists.
- And what was
your understanding
about how to extract
money from parishioners?
Well, for one thing, you
definitely are taught
not to take no for an answer.
I would call people
and call people
and call people over and
over and over again,
and the other thing was
you were taught they
have the money.
They have the money.
Don't let them tell you
that they don't. They have it,
and you have to go and get it.
It was your duty to
invade somebody's privacy
- for their own good.
- There is a policy letter
that specifically
says that registrars
must be people that
can control people.
They will get in their face
and you hear lots of stories
about these registrars
that do outrageous things
and say outrageous
things to people,
and that comes from
that fundamental belief
that this is the right
way of going about it.
Yeah, the key word is "ruthless"
and "never give up". I
mean, they don't care
what duress they're
putting you under.
What happens i...
You know, the regs
will go to your house
unannounced, you know,
as you have experienced,
and they d... they don't leave.
It's not like, "Oh, it's 11:00.
"Boy, we really overstayed.
"I'm really sorry.
I gotta go now.
- Sorry!"
- Yeah, but for people at home,
why don't people kick you out?
Well, fear is one of
the biggest reasons.
If they start
complaining about you,
then they're routed
to Ethics right away.
So basically, what
you're saying is
the parishioner gets in trouble
if they complain
about you showing up
- to their house.
- Right.
They don't want to get a
report written on them.
They're getting
reported to the...
The department of Scientology
that is, like, for bad people.
That's called Ethics.
Like, people have
written reports
on me, even, saying
Leah's not giving
a certain amount
more... more money when
she could give the money.
- Yeah.
- So now,
you're in Ethics trouble,
so you get... go to
the Ethics officer,
and guess how you can
get out of there quick?
By buying a book package.
By paying, yes.
Right, by paying some money
to Scientology.
They don't say, "Go volunteer",
go do something good
for the environment".
- No, it's "buy more books".
- They say,
"Buy another book package".
And also, what we're not saying
is that all registrars...
There's a "Thursday
before 2:00" statistic...
- Oh, yes.
- And so you're...
Every Scientology organization
is run on "get money
before Thursday"
before 2:00". That's
what you will find in...
Is rooms of literally salesmen.
That's all they do,
all day, all night.
Every Wednesday, it was a given,
you knew that you would
not sleep that night.
And then, average,
as a registrar,
what are their quotas? Like...
- $200,000? Yeah.
- Well, they're like
- $250,000 a week.
- Yeah, a week.
- A week.
- For a person.
- Yes.
- One.
- And how many regs are...
- And they've got a dozen
sitting there with
support staff...
Oh, yeah. They
have support staff
- that go get the people...
- Running around
grabbing people or
finding phone numbers
or tracking people down for them
to come in for the close.
This is high-pressure,
high-intensity sales.
There were things
that I would do
that I never thought
in my wildest dreams
I would ever do
because reprimands
were not pleasant.
How much money do you think
you made for Scientology?
Well, I know I was...
It was, like, $2 million
or $3 million a year.
So over how many years?
Well, I was a reg for 12 years.
- $20 million?
- Has to be.
Easily.
- Easily 20...
- To be honest, I never thought
about it, but yeah,
I'm sure it was
- at least that.
- And ultimately,
you reached the point
where you just couldn't
- carry on.
- Yeah.
Well, it was...
after the basics.
I was a registrar.
I was pretty good at what I did.
I did it consistently
and my... my stats
were normally up,
so I had it down, you know?
Um, and then they said,
"No, you have to have
a quota for books".
That's what they were
doing to everybody.
- They were doing it to every...
- Yes!
You know, people who
were counseling me
were... were selling me
- ten books packages I bought.
- Even people
that were in the management,
- which was where I was at.
- Yeah, everybody.
After, you know, 11:00 at night,
then I'd start on my basics,
because I couldn't really
do it during the day,
and I'd have a... a senior
person sitting there,
watching me call over the...
All over the world
till 4:00 in the morning,
and this was pretty much
the whole last year I was there.
Right.
The whole thing was so...
Too much.
I just said one day...
And I had just turned
61 years old...
And I said, "If I
don't do it now,
I'll never leave,"
so I came up with a plan.
I came in early on a bus
and I walked up to
Enterprise Rent-A-Car.
I rented a car,
I got the Scientology discount,
'cause we had an account there,
hid it in a garage downtown,
went about my business
the rest of the day.
Then the next two, three days,
I took the bus in
with a tote bag
and put as much stuff into
it as I could each day,
threw it into the trunk,
and made a decision
to leave that Thursday,
and at the end of the day,
'cause our week ends at 2:00,
you know, as we've
already talked about,
got in the car,
and I made a U-turn
and headed north
and the first thing I did...
and I always cry
when I tell this story...
But I just went to a restaurant
to say whatever I wanted.
- Yeah.
- And that's what I did.
And then...
Then I went to a
Holiday Inn Express
a couple towns up
and I just, you know,
slept, and then my mom helped me
take a Greyhound
bus cross-country.
So I got to my mom's house,
and... she was amazing.
All I did was sleep,
turn on the television,
sleep, turn on the television.
I was... 'cause, you know,
you didn't watch television
all those years.
26 years I was there,
no television,
and, I mean, it was like
coming out of a time warp.
By the time I was
all routed out,
it was November, so
December, Christmas,
I said, "I want to
have Christmas"
"with my kids," who
grew up in Scientology.
Let me just get this straight.
Because even though
you left the Sea Org,
- you had gone back...
- Back... I went back.
Because if you wanted a
connection to your family,
your Scientology family,
you had to do it the way
Scientology wants you
to do it, which is
called "routing out".
And I went back and
routed out standardly,
so I wouldn't be declared,
and they wanted me
to buy basic book packages,
and I said, "Well, I
don't have any money".
They said, "Call all
your credit cards
and get your limits raised,"
and... and I ended up
spending about $10,000...
Money I did not have.
Which, when I finally
got home, I ended up
going bankrupt, because
how could I not?
You know, I was trying
to get a job...
And also, you're trying to
stay connected to your family.
Yeah. My daughter...
She and my son came to
visit me for Christmas,
and my daughter and I
kind of made a plan.
I said, "Why don't you move
out here to California?"
"We'll live together.
We'll create a life.
We'll figure something out. Let's...
we'll do something".
She goes back to Florida
after Christmas,
and she met the guy she married
that had been a
lifetime Scientologist
- like her.
- But they wanted you
back in, paying for
Scientology...
- Right.
- And you basically
just said, "I want nothing
to do with this".
But my daughter and I had
an agreement, at least,
that we were... you know, she
was "I don't really care, Mom".
You know, I just... we're close.
We talked on the
phone every day,
and then I was talking to
her on the phone one day,
and she said, "Hold on, Mom,"
and somebody came up to her
while I was on the phone,
and she came back and said,
"Oh, they want me to go
to the Ethics office
tonight at 8:00".
"Oh, okay".
Well, what they did
is they pulled her in
to tell her that I
had been declared.
So why had you been declared
- an enemy?
- I never found out.
- Still, this day...
- So to this day,
you still do not
know what you did.
No. I ca... I called
to go "Hello?"
"I mean, I never found
out what's going on.
Could you tell me?" and the
more and more and more
I tried to handle this,
I got so violently ill,
and I said, "You
know, I'm trying
"to hook back up
with a serpent here,
I'm trying to...
With the devil".
I said, "I can't do this".
I don't want to be back
in good standing".
I mean, I wanted my daughter,
but why did I want to do that?
I was killing me. I...
really felt
- like it was killing me.
- I understand.
And my daughter... I
thought that she might
come to her senses, but
she basically did not.
And since then, you've
had a granddaughter?
- A grandchild?
- Two.
I don't know them,
and I... I'm just gonna
say it right here.
I refuse to look at
her Facebook page,
'cause it's just too painful.
I understand.
I do want to say
that I have a son...
- Yeah.
- And his father told him
not to talk to me anymore,
and he told him,
"That's not gonna happen,
'cause she's my mom".
- Thank God for him.
- Yeah.
We can only hope
that your daughter
will come around.
I can't... I have to hope that,
but I got married
uh, about a year and a half ago.
My husband has
five grandchildren
and I get to enjoy
them all the time.
It's really wonderful.
It's okay. It's okay.
Thank you.
I'm sorry.
I'm sorry.
- Thank you.
- I know it's hard.
Thank you. Ow.
Thank you. Yeah.
- No, I know it's...
- So much.
- Yeah.
- Really, give my love
to your mom. Give
my love to her.
I hope your daughter
comes around.
I hope so.
- Okay.
- Okay.
- Thank you guys.
- Bye.
- Thank you.
- Bye, you guys.
has a book on finances?
- Right.
- This is how to extract money.
You have the area cashier. You
have department of income.
"Freeloaders".
"Collection from SPs".
This is what the IRS
accepts as non-commercial.
This is a church.
What they need to say
is "we are a business".
Actually, they need to
go one step further.
We're not just a business. We're
like a collection agency.
They come to your
house unannounced.
They tell you
mankind is at stake
if you don't give up this,
if you don't give up that,
and they pound you and pound...
"Why don't you kick
them out of your house?
Because you're like, "Well,
then they're gonna tell my kid"
"not to talk to me, or my
mom not to talk to me,
"or Scientologists,
"so I have to let
them in my house.
I have to let them in my job".
We talked to people before
about policies and practices
of Scientology in getting money.
It's so cutthroat,
- you... you would not believe it.
- But this is a church.
- It's a machine.
- It's a machine,
and it's all set up
to get maximum money out
of you, in and out.
But never really heard so
much of the personal stories
- of how this impacts people.
- Yeah.
And the people that we're
gonna talk to today
are just a small sample of
the thousands and thousands
who've given millions and
millions of dollars,
often money they didn't have,
to Scientology.
This is insane.
Tonight, we're talking to
Mark and Stephanie Fladd,
who were Scientologists
for a very short amount of time,
but Scientology,
in usual fashion,
extracted a large chunk
of money from you
to do Scientology.
I feel that the
Church of Scientology
took advantage of me,
and they are
financial predators.
I don't believe Scientology
is an honest organization.
Heather Ruggeri, who was a
Sea Organization member,
and so was her mother,
and her mother ended
up being taken
for $80,000 of inheritance...
They are only about
accomplishing
what they want to accomplish,
taking the money that they
need to take from people
so that they can get
their next venture done.
And Carol Nyburg, who...
You were... are what's called
a registrar for Scientology,
and so that was your job,
- to extract the money...
- Right.
From people, whether
they had it or not.
- Right.
- Yeah, got it.
There are a lot of promises made
by Scientologists...
You're gonna
constantly get better
and make more money...
And that doesn't happen.
And Tyler Adams, who was
also a Sea Org member,
who, in fact, lost his eye
as a Sea Org member
and left the Sea Organization
was handed a freeloader bill
to add, literally,
insult to injury.
The Church of Scientology
cares more about money
than... any kind
of enlightenment.
Welcome, everyone.
We appreciate you
joining us today.
- Thank you.
- Thank you.
We covered the subject
of Scientology and money
in our specials and in our show,
you know, very kind
of clinically,
like how Scientology is set up,
how there's this bridge,
how you have to pay in advance,
and it's not... negotiable...
And the fact that there's,
you know, a
department of income,
which also differs
from a real religion
in that they have
volumes of books
on how to extract money
from the very rich to
the average person.
It doesn't matter.
And people often ask us,
"How do people
afford Scientology?"
How do they afford
Scientology, Mike Rinder?
Um, by either joining the
Sea Org and not paying
or by living a life
that is really below
what their normal
means would be,
sacrificing a lot of what is,
to normal people in the...
in the normal world,
the normal things
that you do in life,
uh, for the sake
of participating in Scientology.
Right. So let's start
with Mark and Stephanie.
You guys... you were totally
sold on Scientology,
totally on board?
Totally on board
with Scientology.
And you were told
you need to buy
a certain amount of
Scientology pre-paid.
They sell these
things in packages,
which is from the bottom,
which is called the
Purification Rundown,
to Clear.
The Clear package was about
$35,000 for my package,
was what I was sold on.
- In advance, right?
- Right.
That's the first kind of chunk
that a registrar
would what... what's
called "reg" you for.
And are you millionaires?
- No.
- Not at all, no.
I didn't even have a credit card
that had a high limit on it.
You know, in my case,
the registrars
actually helped me
sign up for credit
cards to pay for it.
And what do they tell
you you're gonna get?
Yeah, yeah. Like,
paint the pic...
You know, 'cause you
make it sound nice.
You don't have the money.
You... I'm sure you told them
you didn't have the money,
- right?
- Yeah.
So they didn't "help" you
to get a credit card.
It started out...
Yeah, let your wife speak.
She... maybe you're too nice.
Uh, it started out
he went into the
Orange County Org,
he was there most of the night,
he brought two other
people back home with him
at 10:00 at night
to try and convince me
to be on board with buying
this Clear package.
I was like, "No, we need
to think about it".
"We don't have $35,000
just to hand over.
This is a big decision".
So they basically came to me
and to him daily.
They went to his work.
They would come to our house.
- Unannounced?
- Unannounced.
And I told them it's not okay
to show up at my
work unannounced.
There was three of
them that showed up.
They said, "Well, you know",
can we come over to your house?"
I'm like, "Yeah,
fine, whatever".
"You can... you can come over,
'cause I just don't want
you guys at my work".
They would make it all
sound all pretty.
"You're gonna be so
much better off,
you're gonna end up making
so much more money".
They always use that
as, like, saying,
"We just know, in
our experience,
"any time people give us money,
they get it back in the world".
Give us money. You'll get money,
and it's... it's a
complete disconnect.
Oh, yeah. You'll have
enough to buy a house,
but you will never do that,
because you're gonna
give us more money.
- Yeah.
- Yes.
Because even if you
make the more money,
or do get that more money,
that's only so that
we can take it.
Right, right.
So you know that you
don't have the money.
Yeah. Being a supportive wife,
I was like, "If he
wants to do it",
then we can pay
course by course,"
and the director, she was like,
"Oh, it's gonna be
so much more money".
I was like, "I understand that",
but I'm not forking out
$35,000 all at once".
And the "so much more money"
is because of the discounts
that are offered for buying...
- More, yeah.
- A pack... more.
"The more you buy,
the cheaper it is,"
- quote unquote.
- Yeah.
They would take him
to the org
and they would leave
me at the house,
and they would talk
to me at the house
and they would talk
to him at the org
and they did their best
to keep us separated
so we didn't have
to talk about it,
and we didn't discuss it
and decide not to do it.
They would tell me,
"He's so ready to do it.
He wants to do it.
"I know you're such
a supportive wife.
He just needs your okay".
They would tell him,
I really thought it
was a great idea
for him to go, and I think
it would be so great
for him to do it,
so they were playing us
- by keeping us so separated...
- Sure.
That we didn't even have
time to discuss it,
so we finally just
couldn't handle
the pressure anymore
and we okayed it,
and they were the ones
that signed us up
- for the credit cards.
- And you're...
You're nodding yes.
Is this usual, to take people
who don't have the
money for Scientology
and sign up for... Them
up for a credit card?
Yeah. A whole list of...
cards to call that
are easy to get.
It's, like, quite common
for... a public Scientologist,
such as they were, to give over,
to turn over the
mother's maiden name,
last four of your Social,
and all these kind of things
so that they can call
up and get more.
Uh, it's... basically, any
way you can get the money
is... is... is fair play,
but I thought the worst was
going to people's homes
unannounced, anytime.
It was your duty to
invade people's privacy.
So you give them the money,
- the $35,000.
- We finally give them
the $35,000.
I look straight at the
executive director
and I'm like, "Okay, this is
all we can do right now".
"Until he has gone to Clear,
I can't afford anything else,"
and she was like, "Okay,
you will not be asked
to pay for anything else".
We turn around, and
one week later,
they have him sign up as a
lifetime Scientologist,
which is, like, $5,000.
- The membership fee.
- Yes.
And then he comes
to me and says,
"You need to life repair".
So this is another
Scientology processing.
Yes.
And how much... How
much more money
are we talking now?
That was another
$7,500, I think.
So it was $35,000,
the $5,000 for the
IES membership,
and now this.
$7,500 for that.
And you gave it,
even if you didn't
have the money.
He said, "You're gonna
be a suppressive person"
if I reach Clear and you
haven't done anything.
And who told you that?
The executive director
was coaching me
on what to say to my wife
in order to convince her
to agree to life repair.
I see. So basically,
he was saying
"If you, Mark, reach Clear,
"and your wife's
down here still,
she's gonna hurt your life".
- Yeah.
- Exactly.
We would be too... distant,
uh, on the bridge.
You'd be so far superior
to her, spiritually,
you'll be so enlightened
and so amazing,
and your wife would just
be the dumb schmuck,
just being unknowing, right?
- Right.
- Yeah, okay.
So we had to get her life
repaired for that reason.
Gotta get her moving.
Gotta get her moving.
So you... you agree
to life repair.
- Yeah.
- Agree to life repair.
The only reason I agreed is
because he basically said,
"If you don't do life repair,
we're gonna have
to get a divorce".
He basically said,
"If you don't do life repair,
we're gonna have to
get a divorce..."
Which means separating
us and our kids.
How old were your
kids at this point?
At this point, they
were eight and four.
Basically, after he told
me I had to, we went in.
They do all those
questions and stuff.
I couldn't do it. It was...
I was crying leaving,
because I felt like
I was being forced
to do this
so that I could keep
my family together,
and I just never went back.
We've all been there.
There's no judgment here.
Okay.
Mark, you were still
on the bridge.
Yes, so I got through the
Purification Rundown.
I... I did complete that,
and I got onto the...
What's called the
Survival Rundown,
which is the next
step on the bridge,
and I was on that
for a few months.
"I was told," Oh, it's
only gonna take six months
"to... to go to Clear,
starting on the
Purification Rundown".
I was maybe four months into it
and I'm not even halfway
through the Survival Rundown.
I just realized it's not going
the way that they told
me it was gonna go.
I ended up going off
the Survival Rundown.
And you decide, "That's it.
We're done".
We don't want to be part
of this organization"?
- Yeah.
- Okay.
And then try to get
your money back, right?
'Cause you're not
gonna do it, right?
Um, I actually sent a letter
to the executive director,
um, asking for a refund.
Actually, we didn't get a
response to that letter,
and so we went in to the org
and tried to get a refund.
Well... well, technically,
in Scientology,
it's called a repayment,
and I know that this
is an odd distinction,
but you are actually
asking for money
to be returned to you
for things that you
have not done...
- Yeah.
- Like, that you have paid
- in advance for...
- As opposed to a refund...
Which is different than
asking for money back
for something that
you already did.
Right, and I was fine, you know,
for the courses I had taken.
- I was fine paying for that.
- You were fine
- paying for that, of course.
- I just wanted
a... a repayment on what
I had not taken yet,
which was, you know, the
majority of that money.
- We went in...
- You did more than just
write a letter, I assume.
We went in, we tried
to get our money back,
and they said as
soon as we leave,
we wouldn't be able to
ever get our money back.
And as a result?
And as a result, we left,
and we've never gotten
our money back.
I was told, though, as
I was leaving the org,
by the registrar that, you know,
I can use the money
in my next lifetime.
Shut...
Oh. I ca...
That's ridiculous.
I want you to just seriously...
Okay, ser... it's just
me and you talking now.
Yeah.
A person looked at you
and said, literally,
"You can use this money
in your next lifetime"?
- Yes.
- And your reaction?
You know, I had not been
through any of those courses
that taught that issue,
or that... that... topic.
You hadn't gained that...
- That...
- Certainty.
That... that ability yet
to return with your name
and... report back
to Scientology?
Right, right, I... I hadn't had
that in phenomena,
uh, so... I thought
it was a little nuts
that she said that, but that
was kind of her justification
that we're not getting
our money back.
"Well, you know, in
your next lifetime,
"you can come back
and use that money.
It'll still be there for you".
- You know, Mike...
- That is actually
the most bizarre one I've heard.
But Mike, here's the thing.
I mean, we do know that
they do have a policy.
- I mean, L. Ron Hubbard wrote...
- Sure.
- Yeah.
- On the clear cognition,
or whatever, there's
a policy that says,
you know, you should be
able to have the ability
to walk in, say the
person's name,
go find their folder
from another lifetime.
They've put out issues
about Sea Org members
that say they have a 21-year
leave of absence...
When they die. 21-year
leave of absence.
And that their folders
are to be stored
and kept in safekeeping
for their return.
So we... I mean,
we've read that.
Uh, I mean, I don't...
I just never heard
anybody actually say it.
Well, I've never heard
anybody justify it
as to "We're not giving
your money back"
"We're gon... doing you a favor
so you can save it up
for next lifetime".
That is... wow.
Okay, so all joking aside,
you guys had to sell your house.
This wasn't something
that was like,
"Oh, we just had
$50,000 laying around.
It's cool that we lost it".
Right, yeah. So I have
a house, a mortgage,
bills, and on top of that,
I'm trying to pay off
these high-interest
credit cards,
which are the debt from the org,
and that just kind of snowballed
uh, into a situation
where I did have
to sell my house
so that I... I could get
the money out of the house
to pay off the credit cards.
And then you guys had to move
to a different state
altogether, right?
- Because of the cost of living.
- Yes.
I mean, I wanted
to try to recoup
some of the financial losses,
but I also wanted to get my
children out of the area
where they could be
brought into Scientology
when they become of age.
I didn't want them
to be around that
and have to go through
what I went through.
Amazing.
I think it's... really
quite a loving gesture
towards your children
to think about not
wanting your kids
to be in an environment
where they could be found
by Scientology, or even other
Scientologists' children,
and then get indoctrinated
somehow that way.
And I can assure you
that everything that you
have explained to us
and Carol and Heather...
These guys will all confirm
that this is standard
operating procedure,
dictated by policy of L.
Ron Hubbard.
This goes on with...
With people like you,
it goes on with people
like her and the Sea Org,
people like... it doesn't
matter, because you learn.
You go, "Well, I
can't afford it.
Why would I be in debt to my...
religion?"
You think you're gonna
buy spiritual freedom.
- Right.
- But you're not.
In my opinion, the
Church of Scientology
is a real estate con
masquerading as a religion.
It proposes to be
about spirituality,
but it's not.
They focus more on
getting the money
out of their parishioners
than they do actually
helping them.
Now, Heather, tell us a
little bit about your story.
You and your mom
were in the Sea Org.
Yes, we were in the Sea Org.
I was in 24,5 years.
My mom was in for 25 years.
So while your mom
was in the Sea Org,
- she got an inheritance.
- Yes.
And... and just to set this up,
Sea Org members don't
usually have any money.
- Correct.
- Right?
- I mean, is that true?
- Yeah, yeah,
not even a little bit.
I think it paid
for eight months at one point,
just at all. It just... nothing.
And then, when you do
get paid, it's what?
- It can be nothing...
- $50 a week at best.
Or up to $50 a week.
Tax is taken out of that.
But don't forget, also,
that as a Sea Org member,
you have no IRA.
Your Social Security payments
that are deducted
from your check
is like 30˘ a week,
and it's why so
many elderly people
remain in the Sea Org...
Because now they can't work,
they're too old to get a job,
they don't have any money
that they have accumulated,
and they don't even have
any retirement income
or anything there
for the 50 years of work
that they've been doing.
- Right.
- So the only money
that your mother ever really saw
was this inheritance from
her non-Scientology mother?
- Correct, yes.
- So this amount
gets given to your mom while
she's in the Sea Org.
This must feel like...
I mean, you could eat,
you could maybe buy s...
A towel or soap.
Yeah, I mean, no. I mean it...
Listen, when I was
in the Sea Org
for the short amount of
time that I was there,
I mean, I was stealing
things like food.
Right.
I was stealing things
like a bar of soap,
you know, because
these things were not
- really allocated to us.
- You don't have them
- readily there.
- Yeah, these are luxuries.
- These are luxuries.
- So how did they
get the money from her?
So they basically coerced her
and told her
that if she did not
give this money,
about $77,000,
then you're going against
what's the greatest good.
So they told your mom
"If you don't give
us this $77,000,
you'll be hurting mankind"?
Where was that money going to
that... that Scientology
wanted it so bad?
At that time, it was
going towards projects,
I believe, they were doing
around the eastern United States
with organizations they
were trying to purchase.
And they needed
your mother's money
- to do so?
- Yes.
- Yes, it was...
- A billion-dollar organization
needs your... your Sea Org
member mother's money?
Yeah, I mean, and she was told
that you don't really
need this money.
- Put it towards...
- Something good.
What we're doing, yes.
Towards what we're doing here
in the Sea Organization.
But the way that it was done
was insane.
She had that money
in an annuity,
and she had to
withdraw it early.
But that also comes
with tax implications.
- Wow.
- Yes, so then
the IRS was sending notices
that she had to pay this money
and her wa... or her wages
were gonna be garnished
for the taxes,
and those notices
never arrived to her.
So after 25 years, she leaves
the Sea Organization...
Not with me, just on her own...
She gets a job,
and then suddenly, she's told
that her wages are
gonna be garnished
because she didn't get
these notices earlier
from the IRS,
so the little money that
she started making...
Yeah, was being taken
away from her.
Was being taken away from her.
At that point, I was
very riddled with, like,
"Do I stay or do I go with her,
"because she's my mom
and I need to be with her?"
so I made the decision
myself to escape as well,
and she is basically
now faced with...
She has to work the
rest of her life,
and now she's 71, still working.
Did she try to get
her money back?
We have sent letters. She was...
It was responded
to once, in 2012,
said, "Thank you
for your letter".
"As your... per your request,
"your membership to the
IAS has been canceled,
"but we are not gonna
refund your money,
because it's a donation".
Because she's still
trying to get that money,
that's why I'm here.
I'm representing her.
Your mother's not here
because she believes
that her only hope
is not appearing
on a show like this?
- To get her money back?
- Not the...
Just that it would mess up
the chances of her
getting it back.
Does she think she
has a chance now?
I don't know.
- She's hopeful.
- Yeah.
- You know?
- That's what's so sad.
- Yeah, right.
- I... I mean, it really is.
Is that your mother
still believes
- in some process, yeah.
- It's sad that... that...
That in this circumstance,
that your mother
is still looking
for the good. Leah and I...
we have people
contact us all the time
with these sort
of circumstances,
and they're afraid
to say anything,
because they think that
if they say something,
it is gonna be the straw that
breaks the camel's back,
that will forever prevent them
from getting their family back,
or their money
back, or whatever.
- Yes.
- I wish there was some reason
for her to have hope about this.
- Right.
- There isn't.
To me, it's completely criminal
that she has to be
going through this.
- You know?
- Yes, after she served
Scientology for so many years,
- received nothing for it.
- Right.
You've received nothing for it.
I mean, it's... It's my
burden now, that I...
'cause I'm her
daughter, and I am...
I should be helping
to take care of her.
My burden is with my no
high school education,
get somewhere in life
to make enough money
so I can help her
so she can retire,
because I don't
want to see that.
It's not right.
No husband anymore, 'cause
he stayed, you know?
No daughter... my sister.
- She stayed?
- She stayed, you know, so...
- And you have no connection?
- No.
The Church of Scientology
will go to great lengths
to get you to pay up.
There's practically no limits.
They don't care about whether
the person has the money or not.
Your situation is
used against you
for paying more money.
They took our money
and made it out
that they were going
to be helping us,
and really, they just...
threw us aside.
Looking back on it, isn't it...
It's... we're still
going through this,
where we go, "I cannot believe"
"this is something
I gave my life to,
and look how the
destruction of..."
not just financially, right,
but it's like your whole...
Your mom's life was taken...
- Right, right.
- By this thing.
And now your whole family's
destroyed over it.
- Yeah.
- You're a mom.
Could you imagine doing
this to your daughter?
No. I mean...
My daughter means
the world to me,
and my family
that I've gained now
through my husband
ha-has been a support system
that's unbelievable.
To look back at that,
I don't understand it.
It makes no sense to me,
and it's just pure insanity.
That's why I have
done everything
to make sure I'm there for her
and I raise her right
- She deserves that.
- Of course,
- but that's not Scientology.
- No, it is not.
It is so far removed.
Okay, so let's talk about
when you... you were
in the Sea Org.
Yeah, yeah, I joined
straight from 18
uh, after being educated
in Scientology schools.
How did you lose your eye?
Demolitions,
within the first month
of being in the Sea Org.
Uh, we were building
new living spaces
in the big blue building on...
Fountain, on...
- In Hollywood.
- In Hollywood.
Um, it was on the sixth floor.
It was the main section
of the building
where the elevators are.
We got a couple of crates
of hammers and gloves
for 200 people,
dim string lights
to light the area
as, you know, the electrical
was disconnected.
We're not just, like,
chipping away at things.
No, we're throwing
ourselves into the walls,
ripping out the
ceilings by hand.
We did not have the tools.
We were yanking
everything apart by hand,
- 'cause we gotta get it done.
- Right.
So... some of my
friends at the time
yanking apart a
track-and-stud wall
that had some copper pipe in it.
You know, happened like that.
It was just wrong
place, wrong time.
Screamed really loud.
Um...
I... so it... yeah, sorry.
I got kind of lost
- in the moment, but...
- No, it's all right.
It wasn't... It's
not just the eye.
I went to the doctor
or the hospital
for stitches or
something or another
every six months.
Um, I tore open my hand,
I got a nice scar along my leg
from a saw that
was dropped on me
by... by another worker.
So, like, you're saying
all these injuries...
How did these injuries happen?
I mean, were you...
You don't know how to
work a saw, do you?
Did you go to school for that?
Safety?
I didn't go to
school for that, no.
I... I was given a manual
- and I... yeah.
- But you're... you're told
from a... right
from the beginning
that you've done
everything already,
- sometime on your time track.
- Before, in another lifetime.
- Yes, another lifetime.
- Yeah, you just gotta remember
- how to do it.
- You know how to do it.
- You've run planets before.
- Right.
Yeah, yeah. Or blown them up.
- Whatever the case may be.
- Yeah, sure, sure.
- So you're... you're...
- So you can really do it.
- You just...
- Yeah, yeah.
- You just need to remember.
- Yeah.
And, you know, we should
set out for people
- that these are children...
- Oh, yeah.
- These are people like you.
- Anybody.
You guys work, you know,
8:00 in the morning
till midnight, sometimes
all-nighters...
You know, on top of just sort of
the general lack of
reasonable training,
you know, there's no
real safety equipment.
The safety glasses
that were available
were all scratched up,
unable to be seen
through in low light,
you know, dust everywhere.
If I was wearing safety glasses,
we might be having a
different conversation
- right now.
- Right, and that...
That, by the way...
That was happening
- when Mike was in the Sea Org...
- Yep.
As a child. It would happen
when I was in the Sea Org.
I mean, all of us kids
were... had no gloves,
no nothing. Nothing, nothing.
He represents, and they
represent, thousands.
- Yeah, absolutely.
- I mean, they represent...
And... and current children
in the Sea Org, and not just children.
Adults.
I just want to comment
about, you know,
you'd think, in any
situation like that,
or anything close,
we would call 911.
We wouldn't even think about it.
Somebody... probably,
we'd all take our phones
and start calling 911.
But nobody in that
situation would,
because we would think,
"Oh, we'd have to... We
have to get permission".
So again, nobody called...
so after getting bandaged up,
I was, you know, taken
to the emergency room.
I got a security guard.
I got three people
in black-and-gray uniforms.
I'm wearing black and gray.
"What were you doing
demolishing a building
at 9:30 at night?"
Did they prep you
before you left?
Before the interview,
I was just told,
"Yeah, don't... Don't
cause a flap".
I've seen this many times.
The person who was
actually being admitted
just sits there and the handlers
take care of everything
to avoid...
creating the idea
that there was
some irresponsible
or inappropriate
activity happening
on behalf of the organization.
It was the person who was doing
something that was
inappropriate or wrong.
Yeah, so, I mean, I
didn't even have
a conversation with a
medical professional
until, like, I'm on the
table, or the next day.
But after this eye accident...
Let me just be clear,
you went back on
this labor camp?
Yeah, as soon as I
wasn't actively needing
to irrigate my eye every day,
actively needing
to wear a bandage,
I was back to work, you know,
rewiring the building.
- Back in the Sea Org?
- Yeah, you know,
raised to be a true believer,
you keep going.
And what about your...
Your mom and your da...
Like, where are you
parents at this point?
- Are they, like...
- My mom is a big part
of the reason why I
ended up getting out,
as she ended up being
diagnosed with cancer,
uh, after I lost my eye.
Uh, long story short, I
had to ask permission
to go visit her, and I
was able to do that
with... with a handler.
Then... later, as time went on,
um, she had to start an
experimental treatment,
so I wrote up another request.
"I'd like to see my
mom again, you know?
"I might not be able
to see her again
for too much longer,"
and that request was denied,
so...
one day, I just left
out one of the...
The, uh back doors of
the parking structure
opposite of the...
The blue building.
I just left and beelined
for the train station
and then, from there, I was
able to contact my mom,
uh, and arrange a meeting
and even then,
just hanging out, having
some quality family time,
security rolls up, and
it's like, "Hey",
it's time to come back".
I was... I was threatened
with... being kicked out,
and I called them on it.
It's like, I'm... I'm not
having a good time here.
Look, I... I want to go.
I'm out.
And then were you handed a
freeloader's debt from this?
Yep, yeah.
It was because of the
coursework I'd done
as a regular Sea Org member
that they then bill for.
The stuff that I needed to
do in order to do my job
that they were assigning me,
so they were charging
me for the training
that they gave me that
was job-specific.
After all this on routing out,
I have to sign a
stack of affidavits
about how... I acknowledge
that everything that
happened that was bad to me
- was not...
- Was your fault.
Was... was my fault, ex...
more or less.
- Right.
- And then a bill, first thing,
pay off this freeloader debt,
and it was about $40,000.
Oh, my gosh.
So you gave them your life,
you gave them your eye,
- you couldn't see your mom...
- They took my eye.
And they go, "Hey",
"okay, get out, but by the way,
"before you go, we have a gift,
- and that's a bill for $40,000".
- Yeah.
Oh, and I'm not allowed
to stay in Los Angeles.
I had to go to Boston.
You're not allowed to
live in Los Angeles?
- Yeah.
- 'Cause you... you would
- infect the group?
- I would infect the group...
- With truth.
- Or get close to my mom,
or whatever the case may be,
so I had to go stay
with my dad at first.
I made a couple payments
of, like, 100 bucks
here and there,
but it... after that,
um, it got to the point
where I just stopped
taking calls.
And is this usual? I
mean, is this usual
for registrars to
be calling people
trying to get this...
Extract this freeloader's debt?
- I mean...
- Oh, absolutely. Yeah.
And what is the purpose
of their paying it?
And you can be in good standing
and you can come onto the base.
You could talk to your
family and friend?
That... that feeds into it.
But the field staff
member who was...
Tried to get the money...
Him to pay it gets
a commission...
On that money.
- Yeah.
- So again,
I don't know what organization
calling itself a church
has departments
of sales teams...
Most businesses don't have that.
You worked in a sales department
even going every...
- Every day on the base.
- Every day you woke up,
- that was your job, right?
- That's right. Yeah.
- Oh, yeah.
- You worked with the...
The kings and queens
of extracting money
- from Scientologists.
- And what was
your understanding
about how to extract
money from parishioners?
Well, for one thing, you
definitely are taught
not to take no for an answer.
I would call people
and call people
and call people over and
over and over again,
and the other thing was
you were taught they
have the money.
They have the money.
Don't let them tell you
that they don't. They have it,
and you have to go and get it.
It was your duty to
invade somebody's privacy
- for their own good.
- There is a policy letter
that specifically
says that registrars
must be people that
can control people.
They will get in their face
and you hear lots of stories
about these registrars
that do outrageous things
and say outrageous
things to people,
and that comes from
that fundamental belief
that this is the right
way of going about it.
Yeah, the key word is "ruthless"
and "never give up". I
mean, they don't care
what duress they're
putting you under.
What happens i...
You know, the regs
will go to your house
unannounced, you know,
as you have experienced,
and they d... they don't leave.
It's not like, "Oh, it's 11:00.
"Boy, we really overstayed.
"I'm really sorry.
I gotta go now.
- Sorry!"
- Yeah, but for people at home,
why don't people kick you out?
Well, fear is one of
the biggest reasons.
If they start
complaining about you,
then they're routed
to Ethics right away.
So basically, what
you're saying is
the parishioner gets in trouble
if they complain
about you showing up
- to their house.
- Right.
They don't want to get a
report written on them.
They're getting
reported to the...
The department of Scientology
that is, like, for bad people.
That's called Ethics.
Like, people have
written reports
on me, even, saying
Leah's not giving
a certain amount
more... more money when
she could give the money.
- Yeah.
- So now,
you're in Ethics trouble,
so you get... go to
the Ethics officer,
and guess how you can
get out of there quick?
By buying a book package.
By paying, yes.
Right, by paying some money
to Scientology.
They don't say, "Go volunteer",
go do something good
for the environment".
- No, it's "buy more books".
- They say,
"Buy another book package".
And also, what we're not saying
is that all registrars...
There's a "Thursday
before 2:00" statistic...
- Oh, yes.
- And so you're...
Every Scientology organization
is run on "get money
before Thursday"
before 2:00". That's
what you will find in...
Is rooms of literally salesmen.
That's all they do,
all day, all night.
Every Wednesday, it was a given,
you knew that you would
not sleep that night.
And then, average,
as a registrar,
what are their quotas? Like...
- $200,000? Yeah.
- Well, they're like
- $250,000 a week.
- Yeah, a week.
- A week.
- For a person.
- Yes.
- One.
- And how many regs are...
- And they've got a dozen
sitting there with
support staff...
Oh, yeah. They
have support staff
- that go get the people...
- Running around
grabbing people or
finding phone numbers
or tracking people down for them
to come in for the close.
This is high-pressure,
high-intensity sales.
There were things
that I would do
that I never thought
in my wildest dreams
I would ever do
because reprimands
were not pleasant.
How much money do you think
you made for Scientology?
Well, I know I was...
It was, like, $2 million
or $3 million a year.
So over how many years?
Well, I was a reg for 12 years.
- $20 million?
- Has to be.
Easily.
- Easily 20...
- To be honest, I never thought
about it, but yeah,
I'm sure it was
- at least that.
- And ultimately,
you reached the point
where you just couldn't
- carry on.
- Yeah.
Well, it was...
after the basics.
I was a registrar.
I was pretty good at what I did.
I did it consistently
and my... my stats
were normally up,
so I had it down, you know?
Um, and then they said,
"No, you have to have
a quota for books".
That's what they were
doing to everybody.
- They were doing it to every...
- Yes!
You know, people who
were counseling me
were... were selling me
- ten books packages I bought.
- Even people
that were in the management,
- which was where I was at.
- Yeah, everybody.
After, you know, 11:00 at night,
then I'd start on my basics,
because I couldn't really
do it during the day,
and I'd have a... a senior
person sitting there,
watching me call over the...
All over the world
till 4:00 in the morning,
and this was pretty much
the whole last year I was there.
Right.
The whole thing was so...
Too much.
I just said one day...
And I had just turned
61 years old...
And I said, "If I
don't do it now,
I'll never leave,"
so I came up with a plan.
I came in early on a bus
and I walked up to
Enterprise Rent-A-Car.
I rented a car,
I got the Scientology discount,
'cause we had an account there,
hid it in a garage downtown,
went about my business
the rest of the day.
Then the next two, three days,
I took the bus in
with a tote bag
and put as much stuff into
it as I could each day,
threw it into the trunk,
and made a decision
to leave that Thursday,
and at the end of the day,
'cause our week ends at 2:00,
you know, as we've
already talked about,
got in the car,
and I made a U-turn
and headed north
and the first thing I did...
and I always cry
when I tell this story...
But I just went to a restaurant
to say whatever I wanted.
- Yeah.
- And that's what I did.
And then...
Then I went to a
Holiday Inn Express
a couple towns up
and I just, you know,
slept, and then my mom helped me
take a Greyhound
bus cross-country.
So I got to my mom's house,
and... she was amazing.
All I did was sleep,
turn on the television,
sleep, turn on the television.
I was... 'cause, you know,
you didn't watch television
all those years.
26 years I was there,
no television,
and, I mean, it was like
coming out of a time warp.
By the time I was
all routed out,
it was November, so
December, Christmas,
I said, "I want to
have Christmas"
"with my kids," who
grew up in Scientology.
Let me just get this straight.
Because even though
you left the Sea Org,
- you had gone back...
- Back... I went back.
Because if you wanted a
connection to your family,
your Scientology family,
you had to do it the way
Scientology wants you
to do it, which is
called "routing out".
And I went back and
routed out standardly,
so I wouldn't be declared,
and they wanted me
to buy basic book packages,
and I said, "Well, I
don't have any money".
They said, "Call all
your credit cards
and get your limits raised,"
and... and I ended up
spending about $10,000...
Money I did not have.
Which, when I finally
got home, I ended up
going bankrupt, because
how could I not?
You know, I was trying
to get a job...
And also, you're trying to
stay connected to your family.
Yeah. My daughter...
She and my son came to
visit me for Christmas,
and my daughter and I
kind of made a plan.
I said, "Why don't you move
out here to California?"
"We'll live together.
We'll create a life.
We'll figure something out. Let's...
we'll do something".
She goes back to Florida
after Christmas,
and she met the guy she married
that had been a
lifetime Scientologist
- like her.
- But they wanted you
back in, paying for
Scientology...
- Right.
- And you basically
just said, "I want nothing
to do with this".
But my daughter and I had
an agreement, at least,
that we were... you know, she
was "I don't really care, Mom".
You know, I just... we're close.
We talked on the
phone every day,
and then I was talking to
her on the phone one day,
and she said, "Hold on, Mom,"
and somebody came up to her
while I was on the phone,
and she came back and said,
"Oh, they want me to go
to the Ethics office
tonight at 8:00".
"Oh, okay".
Well, what they did
is they pulled her in
to tell her that I
had been declared.
So why had you been declared
- an enemy?
- I never found out.
- Still, this day...
- So to this day,
you still do not
know what you did.
No. I ca... I called
to go "Hello?"
"I mean, I never found
out what's going on.
Could you tell me?" and the
more and more and more
I tried to handle this,
I got so violently ill,
and I said, "You
know, I'm trying
"to hook back up
with a serpent here,
I'm trying to...
With the devil".
I said, "I can't do this".
I don't want to be back
in good standing".
I mean, I wanted my daughter,
but why did I want to do that?
I was killing me. I...
really felt
- like it was killing me.
- I understand.
And my daughter... I
thought that she might
come to her senses, but
she basically did not.
And since then, you've
had a granddaughter?
- A grandchild?
- Two.
I don't know them,
and I... I'm just gonna
say it right here.
I refuse to look at
her Facebook page,
'cause it's just too painful.
I understand.
I do want to say
that I have a son...
- Yeah.
- And his father told him
not to talk to me anymore,
and he told him,
"That's not gonna happen,
'cause she's my mom".
- Thank God for him.
- Yeah.
We can only hope
that your daughter
will come around.
I can't... I have to hope that,
but I got married
uh, about a year and a half ago.
My husband has
five grandchildren
and I get to enjoy
them all the time.
It's really wonderful.
It's okay. It's okay.
Thank you.
I'm sorry.
I'm sorry.
- Thank you.
- I know it's hard.
Thank you. Ow.
Thank you. Yeah.
- No, I know it's...
- So much.
- Yeah.
- Really, give my love
to your mom. Give
my love to her.
I hope your daughter
comes around.
I hope so.
- Okay.
- Okay.
- Thank you guys.
- Bye.
- Thank you.
- Bye, you guys.