Leah Remini: Scientology and the Aftermath (2016–…): Season 3, Episode 6 - Ideal Orgs - full transcript

Churches of Scientology
around the world are called

Orgs... Organizations.

There are two types of Orgs.

The original, normal Org,

and now this new thing
called an Ideal Org.

The Ideal Org program
began in the early 2000s

and, A, it's a way
of demonstrating

or proving to
Scientologists in the world

that Scientology is expanding

because it's opening
new buildings.

It is also a way of collecting
money from Scientologists



who are told that they
need to be donating funds

to build these Ideal Orgs,

and it is a way of
preventing a problem

with the IRS of excessive
accumulation of funds

by investing it in real estate

rather than just
holding it as cash.

I am the writer of the
textbooks of Scientology.

The aim and goal is to put
man in a mental condition,

uh, where he him... Can
solve his own problems.

Without any Scientology
organization,

things are not gonna
change on this planet.

After years of slowly
questioning Scientology...

Leah Remini and her
very public break

with Scientology...



Scientology... what they do,
trying to destroy people,

trying to destroy their
families when they leave,

they create a lot of people

who are willing to
fight against them.

Scientology takes
tax free dollars

and ruins people's lives.

This is not the life
that I wanna live.

I wanted to end my life.

Some people it takes a year,
some people it takes ten years,

of just peeling that onion
of how you were manipulated

and made to think.

This season we really needed
to focus on the reason why

Scientology is able to do
the things that they do,

is because they have
tax exempt status.

People who have bravely come on

and told their stories

have not told those
stories in vain.

They are having an impact.

We're presenting our
case to the world,

to the FBI, to the IRS.

The most important thing
that has to be done

is the persistent telling

of the truth, and that's
what you're doing.

You have to continue to fight.

You have to continue to
fight for what's right.

Wow.

No...

Oh, we don't need an escort.
We're okay.

Okay, great.

Thank you.

- All right, that's fine...
- Let's go, yeah.

Let's go. Let's go quickly.

You see him?

Our theme for this evening
is relentless expansion.

Last year I told you
our Ideal Org rollout

was best compared to
a massive snowball

tumbling down a mountainside.

Well, that snowball has
now become an avalanche.

Scientology is now irresistible,

which means our destiny
is finally inevitable.

So, David Miscavige creates
this illusion that we have

all these buildings so that
means that we're expanding.

All these buildings

mean there's thousands
and thousands of people

going in to these buildings.
That's the myth.

That's the myth that he sells
to every Scientologist,

including me, who believed it.

And that concept that we're
growing and expanding

is used to justify
extracting more money.

So Scientologists not only have
to pay hundreds of thousands

of dollars for their
Scientology counseling,

then they're told, "Look,
it is your responsibility"

to help us... Scientology...

To buy these big,
fancy buildings.

So a big production
is made, right?

They fly in people from
other Scientology churches,

and most of these
people are staff.

So there's a big production,
and they show this video

of thousands of people
in the parking lot,

and the audience... this
big ribbon cutting thing.

And then when that's done,

those people go back to
where they came from

and nobody is there.

Right after Buffalo, Miscavige
went to Clear Water.

He saw that the Tampa Ideal
Org was in a strip mall.

This was a light bulb
moment for Miscavige.

He realized that he could now
insist that all other Orgs

become "like Buffalo".

And also that he could
demand that Scientologists

pay for the Org.

Bert, how are you?

- I'm good, good.
- Thanks for being here.

Hello, my friend. Nice
to see you again.

Good to see you, too.

Thanks for talking to us.

I know you had a little bit
of a concern in doing so

because you feel like,
looking back on it now,

like, "What was wrong with me?
Why did I do all of this?"

Why was I in it for so long?
Why was I that dumb?"

- Stupid, yeah.
- Yes.

Yes, it's true.

You and... and every one
of us feel the same way.

Even the other day I
was talking to my mom

who's been in it her whole
life and she's like,

"I don't... I feel like I
wasted my whole life".

You know? And it was,
like, really sad.

It was like a sad moment
because you have such a sense

of purpose when you're
a Scientologist.

- Right, right.
- You have such a sense of

this false kind of,

you know, you're... you're
doing something for the world.

- And you're...
- Saving the planet.

Yeah, you're saving the planet.

And it's such a little trap

because we... we weren't
doing any such thing.

It depends how you really
measure your success.

You know, for so long,
our measurement has been

our contribution to Scientology.

Financially, emotionally, and...

you know, we just have to
change the way we look at

- our success in life.
- True, true.

- Yes.
- You know?

It's really hard to swallow
because you have spent

your whole life in Scientology,

and all it took was one
click on a computer,

and your whole world
is shattered.

And all the money
that you spent,

all the time that you spent,

you didn't do any of those
things you believed

you were doing,

and the kid that you
didn't put through college

because you gave it
to Dave Miscavige...

To Scientology because you
were told your... that money

was needed to open up
an Ideal Org, you...

I mean, it's... it's a
hard place to... to be.

I was a Scientologist
for 23 years.

My then wife and I were one
of the top five active

contributing Scientologists
in the field.

What does that mean? You
were one of the top five...

We were giving money.

- Number one.
- Okay.

We were giving lots of money.

We were active on the Bridge,
which means we were doing

Scientology training and we
were receiving the counseling.

Started going up the...
the bridge

to total spiritual freedom, as...
as they call it.

- And how far did you make it?
- I made it to OT IV.

It took me 15, 17
years to get to OT IV

It took a lot of money.

It took... I'm gonna guesstimate
just for the going up

the Bridge part, about $750,000.

Might be a little more.

It's kind of horrible to think
about all that, actually.

All the time I spent on that
instead of just enjoying life.

I understand.

I understand.

I mean, I still feel stupid.

I still feel totally
taken advantage of.

Yes, we did it to help.

But, I mean, many times I
hated donating the money

because we were
borrowing it, usually.

Here's Bert. He's, you know,

somebody who's doing
well in life, right?

And he's giving to his church
on top of paying for all

of his services and
his family's services

in Scientology.

And even he had to
borrow the money

to give to Scientology for
these big, fancy buildings

that are servicing no one.

Scientology is amazing
at love bombing you.

Like, they love bomb you
with all these certificates

through your life, and it's
written in calligraphy

and it's, you know, sealed
and it's gold sealed.

Like, you start to feel
important and you're getting

all these accolades,
and so you really,

truly believe, like, this is...
This all means something.

I'm really doing
something with my life.

There's a Patron Meritorious.
How much did this cost?

$250,000.

This is on top of the
$750,000 you spent

on getting your
Scientology services.

- Yes.
- Okay.

"Highly commended,
highly commended".

This one you were very
highly commended for.

This is from CCHR.

"Well, I just want you to
know that you are loved

"by every staff member and
Executive for all you've done

"to continue to keep us here
doing what LRH instructed us

"to do, even though
the enemy would love

for us to just go away
and leave them alone".

What would you say?

How many of these does this
man and his wife have?

- I mean, this is...
- 100?

This just basically reflects

how much money you and your wife

contributed to the
propaganda groups

of Scientology that claim

they are doing the good works

- in the world.
- Correct.

Okay. This is from Super Power,

the expansion project.

How much was this?

That one we only
contributed about $70,000.

- That's all you contributed?
- Yeah.

- $70,000?
- Somewhere around there.

What a piece of crap, Bert.

You're a special guy.

The Silver Humanitarian Award.

- Yes.
- That's worth...

$250,000.

This was the drive to get
Seattle its own building.

However the drive to purchase
a building for Seattle

started in 2001. They
came up with the idea.

"Hey, let's buy a building".

And they actually looked
for and found a building

that was only $1.1 million.
It was very close by.

And long story short, the...
the seller agreed

to sell it to the church.

So we were excited and we got
on board and because we were

one of the very
first contributors,

Lynne and I donated $5,000 each

to start the fundraising
drive for that.

We thought, "Well, if 200
people donated $5,000",

we'd be pretty much there".

And... it seemed very doable.

Upper management got
word, and they said,

"No, you can't buy
that building.

It's... it's too small".

Then the whole shift occurred
and fundraising started

and they started looking
for a bigger building,

which they found a
year or two later.

That building was 30,000
or so square feet,

$3.7 million, and now suddenly,

holy shit, $3.7 million?

Where are we gonna
get this money?

And you, the parishioners,
are being made responsible

- for the fundraising of this?
- Yes.

Yes, 100%.

They would have
fundraisers every week.

And we were on board with that.

We were frustrated that it was
such a high amount of money

and... but we were
still supporters.

So, in the end, we... Over
that eight-year period,

we donated a total of $300,250

specifically for the Seattle
Ideal Org building.

Now, here's another Ideal
Org fundraiser here.

"Be one of 100 people
to newly donate $25,000

to get the building
project done!"

I mean, it just goes on.

"History's made in Seattle".

"We Own the Building!"

"The Next Phase - Renovations".

By the way, how much did
they say was spent?

Because they collect a lot more
often than they actually spend.

Well, the building
cost $3.7 million.

And what they were raising
for renovations was 3.5.

- So, minimum, you know...
- $7.... something million.

- Minimum.
- This goes on and on and on.

This was why you're
giving the money.

Right, the pressure is so great

that often you give the money

to have it stop.

We were written up for not
giving a huge amount of money

that... a Sea Org
member asked for.

She wrote a KR on us for not
giving, like... she wanted,

I don't know,
$70,000 right then.

And... and we said no.

So, here you have a
parishioner, right?

Bert and Lynne who were
not only contributing

in Scientology by doing
their Scientology services,

but they're also contributing

to this Ideal Org
in Seattle, right?

They've already given
$300,000 for a building,

and then Scientology
says, "Hey, bullshit.

"You don't say no to us.
We need more money.

So make it happen," and
they actually write

what's called a
Knowledge Report,

which is an internal
report in Scientology

that gets you into trouble.

Like, somebody writes
a report like this,

they call you in, and they go,

"We need to talk to
you, Bert and Lynne.

"We have a report written
on you by a Sea Org member,

and this is what it says".

"My reason for writing

"this report is
that my last visit

"with them they told me
that they were not gonna"

"donate anything else
to the building cycle"

"as it would have put
them further into debt".

So, that's a problem that they're...
that... okay.

"The fact that it
would only take them

"a year and a half

"to handle their debts
if they donated

"this amount to the
building tells me

"that they can"...

Underline "can"...

"do more if they
were willing to".

This is a Sea Org member
from the "Landlord's Office"

of Scientology, okay?

Who wrote a report
on the parishioners,

who is offended... she's offended
that they weren't willing

to go into further
debt for Scientology

because Scientology needs
parishioners monies.

And if you don't wanna give
it, there's something wrong

with you, and we
will handle you.

So, Bert, you were
promised that you would be

prominently displayed

as a founding
contributor or whatever

- for this building, right?
- Yes.

From the very beginning,
anybody who donated $5,000

or more was promised to
be on the award plaque

to be displayed in
the new building.

We were, I believe, the
number five contributor.

We are absent from that plaque.
We donated $300,000.

We didn't even get our name
on the plaque as promised.

- So, why?
- A couple of friends of mine,

Tony and Mary Jo
DePhillips, became unhappy

with the church,
and they resigned.

They sent a letter to the
church saying, "We resign".

And... and they kinda
wanted to go away quietly.

And... the church doesn't
really let people do that.

And they were declared
as Suppressive Persons.

They were considered enemies
now of Scientology.

- Yes, yeah.
- Okay, and that means

when you're declared
a Suppressive Person

that you no longer

can stay connected to
any family members

who wanna remain in Scientology.

- Family members, et cetera.
- Correct.

And they're my best friends.

And... so of course I wasn't
gonna disconnect from them.

Well, it's not "of
course" 'cause it's not

a Scientological frame of mind.

That's not very
Scientology of you.

So I don't know, like, where did

- the humanity come from?
- That is correct.

Just... It must have been
inside of you still available.

I need to back up a little bit.

- Yep.
- 'Cause my own disaffections,

so to speak, started a
little bit before then.

In what year did this start?

In 2008, I achieved OT IV.

That whole process
was one of the most

degrading experiences
of my life,

and when I was done with
OT IV, I said to myself,

"No more. I'm going home.

And I'm never going to
get auditing again".

But I only said that to myself.

Because to say it to somebody
else would be disaffection.

Right, you couldn't even
say it to your own wife.

Correct, and so I pretended

to be a good
Scientologist still,

and embarrassingly I... we still
donated money to Ideal Org

and other groups.

I was just gonna not go
back for services anymore.

And... then "The Truth
Rundown" came out.

In 2009, the "St. Pete Times"
published an extensive series

of articles called
"The Truth Rundown".

And it was the first major
exposure of the abuses...

The physical abuses
and the mental abuses

that had gone on at Gold.
I participated in it.

Amy Scobee... Marty Rathbun,

Tom DeVocht... a lot
of people spoke to

the newspaper for that series.

Tony and Mary Jo were
exposed to that.

They read that and we were all
shocked by the allegations.

And we started looking
at that information

and discussing things
and at some point,

it became safe to tell my
wife that I was no longer

going to go back for
services in the church.

'Cause you believed
what you read?

- What you saw?
- When I first read it,

I didn't believe it at first

because I thought, "How could...
How could a leader"

"of an 'ethical' church..."

The most ethical
organization on the planet.

- Correct, correct.
- Yeah.

How could the
leader beat people?

So I was kinda iffy on it.

But then my wife
Lynne, she decided

to look at what the
church's response was

- to that.
- What was the response?

Wow, the yelling... yelling
and screaming and she looked

at that stuff and she
was like, "Holy shit".

If that is the
church's response,

there's something to this.

But he's the one who's
saying that David Miscavige

beat these people and he's
saying that David Miscavige

beat the exact same
people that he beat,

and that's what pisses me off.

Because this guy's a
fuckfing lunatic.

And I don't have to explain
how or why he became one

or how it was allowable.

The fact is, is he's
saying David Miscavige

did what he did.

Not once, not twice, but
50 times to 22 people

where the people
are still around,

and they can attest to it, and
there are witnesses to it.

And the instances that you're
saying that Mr. Miscavige

engaged in aren't that way.

It was... It was nuts,

and so that kinda opened
the door for her.

It was like, "Wow.
Something is wrong here".

- Right.
- And then we just started

the process of peeling
back the truth.

It was difficult to go through
'cause starting to learn

this truth about this
organization that you're in,

and it's not that you
necessarily believed

everything that you're reading,
but so many of the things

matched your own experiences and...
and how you were treated

in different ways and different
things that had gone on.

You can start piecing
this shit together of...

"Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

We've been... we've been duped".

It was difficult to go through.

I was extremely,
extremely angry.

But at the same time, we
had to be careful, too,

because we were still
"in" the church.

We were still kinda
going to events.

Why? What did you fear
losing at that point?

I don't think we
wanted to be declared.

We knew that could happen and...
And then everybody would

disconnect from us and,

you know, we had a customer or
two that were Scientologists.

We have employees that were
Scientologists and family.

My stepson at the
time and his wife,

they were ex-Sea Org members,
and they were working

at our company and we did try
to tell them what was going on.

Now, your stepson and his wife,

they had left the
Sea Org, right?

Which means that they just
left working for Scientology

but they were still
Scientologists.

And my understanding is
that for them to get back

into the good graces
of Scientology,

which is called, "In
Good Standing,"

they had to pay off what's
called a Freeloaders' Debt.

Did you pay their
Freeloaders' Debt for them?

We did.

Danar's wife was about $104,000

and Danar's was about $53,000.

We wanted them to be
part of the family.

So Bert and Lynne,

on top of paying for their
Scientology counseling,

on top of giving $300,000

for their church's building,
the good people that they are,

then they're paying
for his stepson's

and his daughter-in-law's
Freeloaders' Debt.

So they go, "We don't want
you to not be part of us".

"And even though we don't
really wanna be part

of Scientology, we don't want
our family to be broken up".

And so, basically,
it's more blackmail,

and they pay that.

They were both working for us,

and we exposed them to
what we had discovered.

They rejected that.

They told on us to the
executives at the church.

They started trying to come
around and meet with us

to handle us. We refused.

And then we didn't
hear much anymore

except that the building
was nearing completion,

meaning the grand opening
of the Seattle Ideal Org

was looming close, and this
is around the time when Tony

and Mary Jo... our friends...
Left the church.

And then they began
to communicate to me.

"Hey, the grand opening
is coming soon.

We need to talk to you".

And... and they wanted me to

verbally and probably in writing

agree that I had... cut ties,
that I had disconnected

- from my friends.
- From your best friends?

- Yes.
- Right.

They being the people at the...

- At the Seattle church?
- Yes.

So, you're getting all
of this pressure.

You're not acting
like a Scientologist

by exerting... any integrity
and loyalty towards

your best friends. And
what happens after that?

So, the day of the
grand opening arrives,

and I go.

Three...

Two, one.

I went with a friend
and, uh, you know,

they... they had
security and I was...

I wasn't allowed in.

But you had not been declared
a Suppressive Person.

- Correct.
- And you had given

$300,000 for that building,

and you had been promised your
name would be in the door.

- Yep.
- And you showed up

to go to the grand opening

and they told you,
"Not you, pal.

That-a-way. Take a step back".

When they betray you like that,

they create an enemy.

So, when did you get
declared officially?

June of 2011.

And how did you find out that
you were officially declared

a Suppressive Person?

Somebody under the
radar got a copy of it

and... sent it to me.

So, you paid $150,000

for your stepson and his wife

to get back in good
standing with Scientology.

- Yeah.
- And then you then

step out of line in the eyes

of Scientology, so they then

- disconnect from you.
- Correct.

They didn't give you
the 150 grand back,

- though, right?
- No, no.

They had been making
some payments on it.

But that stopped once the
disconnection occurred.

Interestingly, a
few years later,

I was in a Home Depot and ran...
Ran across Danar.

Danar was there, too,
and, you know, I told him

he needs to get into
communication with his mom.

And I said, "Your
mom loves you".

All the while he was doing
his best to ignore me

and had a look on his face of,

"I can't talk to him. I
gotta get out of here".

And he bought his stuff and
left as quickly as he could

- and it was sad.
- Yeah.

So he hasn't spoken
to his mother?

For six years.

That's one of the reasons why

I'm here talking to you.

If we can help other people not
get involved or help others

get out and end disconnection,

end that practice,
that'd be great.

- We're trying.
- Yeah.

So now you have your declare.
And now what happens?

And life goes on without being
molested by the church.

No E-mails, no phone
calls, no visits, nothing.

Now you don't have
to judge everybody

- you've ever met in your life.
- Right.

And now you can be part of life

as opposed to
completely segregated

- from the rest of the world.
- Yeah.

And shut off and being dictated

- to how to live your life.
- Yeah.

As a matter of fact, one of
the things that I experienced

was I found myself
having affinity for...

- Mankind?
- People.

For mankind. For
everybody out there.

Like I hadn't before.

Like, "Hey, I'm...
I'm one of you now".

I'm not a member of this
cult that looked down on you

because you weren't a member...
As nutty as that sounds...

I'm... I'm now, "Wow, okay",

I can like you all.
I do like you all".

And it was like becoming a
member of the human race again

in a... in a weird way, and
it was just so freeing

and so wonderful 'cause when
you are a church member,

you are in this meat grinder.

Well, I'm glad you got out,
and I'm glad you decided

to look and I'm glad
that you're happy.

- Thank you, thank you.
- Yeah.

I'm happy, too.

Thank you, sweetheart.

Really, thank you
for doing this.

- Oh, you're welcome.
- I really appreciate it.

Really, really, really, really.

Thank you.

There are so many people
who have stories to tell

but are afraid for whatever
reason to tell them

or to make waves

or that I'm sort of out
of the firing line,

so I'm happy to stay out
of the firing line.

I appreciate it because you
come out of retirement

to tell your story and it...
That's very admirable.

- Hi, Paul.
- Hey.

- How are you?
- Very good.

- Good.
- Hey, Paul.

Very good. Mike.

- Nice to see you, buddy.
- Oh, yeah.

- Nice to see you, too.
- Long time.

Thank you for joining us today.

I'm so happy to be here.

First we want to
know who you are

and how long you were in
the Sea Organization for.

I was in the Sea Organization for...
about three decades.

I actually got in to renovate,

so that was one of my big
buttons for getting in.

I was a Scientologist already.
Had been for about four years.

Um, but, you know, the Orgs
back then were not really nice.

And then it wasn't way
up until in the 2000s

when the Ideal Org program
really became the thing.

Right, now, so, you're a
full-on Scientologist,

dedicated Sea Org member
being tasked with,

"We want you to build
these Ideal Orgs for us".

Yes, my job was to do
what's called a space plan.

These space plans often took
months and months and months

to get approved by
David Miscavige.

They were gone over
with a fine tooth comb.

- By him?
- By him personally.

Mr. Miscavige saw to
the establishment

of the International
Landlord Office

and personally supervises
the development

of each new Ideal Org.

Overseeing building selection,

design,

space planning, staff training,

and all the myriad details
that make a Scientology church

ideal.

You're talking about, what,
like, a couple thousand

for this one? A couple of...

We're talking about
couple hundred thousand

to $300,000 just
for the planning.

Overall between the
building purchase,

all the construction, the
uniforms for the staff,

anywhere from, I would say,

$8 to $30 million
for some of them.

Like some of the big...
like Rome.

Sometimes the
building would cost

$25 million alone.

There was... over 100
different Orgs we were trying

to do... make into Ideal Orgs.

And who's paying for that?

- So, it varied on each Org.
- Sure.

Sometimes the local Org
would do everything.

A few like Seattle.

They did it,
fundraised every penny

and they were, like,
held up as a, you know,

every Org should be
doing this and...

Paul, tell us a bit about
these fundraising practices.

I was in the fundraising
office quite often.

And I would see all the
different types of books

that they would study
on how to fundraise.

So they knew all the
standard techniques.

And what seemed to work the best

for Scientology fundraising was
these crazy themed events.

You know, where it's pirate week

or whatever they
could come up with.

So people are already in kind
of a wild and crazy mood

when they go in.

They put on all these shows.

We're doing a pirate theme,
and then we're doing

a Star Wars theme, and
then we're gonna do

a "Wizard of Oz" theme.
Like, and all these things.

It's all supposed to be like,
"We're making it a game.

"And yes, sell your house.
And yay, yeah, mortgage it.

"And, hey, go broke," and,
like, it's all this craziness.

And then on top of all of this,

they have the audacity
to use children.

Like, they know no bounds.

I gotta read you
something, okay?

This is an actual,
like, directive

of how to fundraise
for Scientology.

"Occasionally children in
the audience will want to

"participate and donate their
piggy banks or allowance.

People love this so back
it up whole-heartedly".

So, the church of Scientology

needs children's money
from their piggy banks

to open these Ideal
Orgs for Scientology.

After some different games and
getting everybody excited...

The usual kind of
fundraising stuff...

They would also have shills
in the audience that would

say, "Okay, I'm gonna
make this huge donation".

It's much bigger than
anybody thought it would,

but of course it was all
arranged ahead of time.

And they would have
targeted people who

they knew had money
and used various ways

to pressure that person
too, 'cause they thought,

"Well, maybe we can get $50,000
out of this guy," or...

It became a vicious cycle when
we started opening the Orgs.

The pressure on people
to give intensified.

When you gotta raise $10 million

out of a small field,
it never ends.

It... These people would

sell the family, you know,
jewels that have been

with the family forever. They
would sell anything that...

- Remortgage their house.
- Yes.

Give up their kids'...
whatever... savings.

Yeah, for school, the
savings for the kids

to go to college, I mean,
because they thought,

you know, "If I"... you
know, they're told,

they somehow believed
that this was gonna

save the world if they
just make an Ideal Org.

One of my last meetings
with Dave Miscavige

before I actually left the
church, I said, "Dave",

"why don't you, at the
next event, ask,"

'Who is going broke

"because of their religion?'"

Who... why don't
you just ask that

Dave, just ask that question.

And he goes... "Okay, anyway",

"let me just show you
the plans that we have

"for another Ideal Org," and
he laid out these huge plans.

Beautiful books with these
beautiful pictures.

"And he's saying," Look, this
is what we're doing next.

This is what we're doing next".

And I go, "That's
beautiful, Dave.

But my stepfather's
going broke".

- Yeah.
- And, again, it was,

"Yeah, but isn't this great?"

These big, huge,
beautiful pictures.

And all I kept seeing
was people like my mom,

people like my stepdad.

I was like, "This
is their money".

Their money is going into
this elaborate lobby

It's going into this very
specific light fixture.

That turned me, if anything. It didn't...
it didn't sell me.

But what's sad is that
it works on people.

It works on other parishioners.
Why does it work?

Because it implies that
Scientology's in such demand

that these buildings
are required.

- Exactly.
- And it's a lie.

This is a book that was made for...
fundraising purposes,

and it just shows all
of the Orgs that

were renovated for that year.

And they were opened
as Ideal Orgs,

and it shows the grand openings.

Shows lots of people in there.

Filled up course rooms.
Grand auditorium.

And you realize the day after
those pictures were taken,

- there was nobody.
- It was empty.

How many of these
"Ideal Organizations"

have you actually been to, Paul?

Uh, probably 15 or 20.

Tell me exactly
what did you see.

Yeah, like Pasadena I went
in quite a number of times

after it opened, and
there would be one,

two people in a
course room at most.

And most of the course rooms
would actually be empty.

Every Org was like that. I
mean, they're all empty.

And none of them... there isn't
a single Org that deserve

a building of that size.

The Valley Ideal Org is
literally two blocks

from where I live right now.

And I drive by it all the time.

And I've never seen a person...
Like, not one person.

Not a person walking
in, walking out,

standing in front, nothing.

And I have driven
by Tampa Ideal Org.

I've driven by
Pasadena, San Diego,

Orange County, Inglewood,

I've been past all of these,
and I've never seen anybody.

There's no new churches and no
new reach into different areas

of the world, but that's
what the PR line is

that keeps being pushed.

"We're expanding because we
have all these buildings".

The implication is, "Look,
nobody's gonna build buildings"

"if they... if there's
nobody in them.

"Nobody's gonna
spend that amount

of money if there's
nobody in them".

Ah, unless it's just
a way of protecting

against the IRS
coming in and saying,

"You are accumulating

"too much money and
you're not spending it,

"so therefore
you're in violation

of the fundamental principles
of tax exemption".

And, you know, I believed it,
which is why I handed over

a nice chunk of change.

And, you know, this is why
parishioners continue to do so,

because they think
they're helping.

You believe it when
you're in the bubble.

Yeah, you do believe it.

Scientology has emerged
into the 21st century

as the fastest growing
religious movement on Earth.

With more than 11,000 churches,

missions, and groups
around the world,

Scientology is expanding
more rapidly today

than at any time in its history.

Over the last decade, the
Church of Scientology

opened dozens of new
churches in major cities

across the globe.

What was the thing

that made you finally,
after 28 years...

Almost three decades of being
in the Sea Organization...

- What was the thing?
- It was two things, really.

It was the fact that
it wasn't working.

The Ideal Org ground plan was...
Obviously wasn't working.

We were making empty buildings,

and also I had a cell phone
with Internet access

that I wasn't supposed to have.
So I started looking.

I started reading other things.

And then I eventually went
to the personnel department

and told them, "Hey,
this is a dead end".

"This whole church just
isn't going anywhere.

"It just is gonna
become a kooky,

crazy, almost evil cult".

That's what it developed into.

So, I bailed.

Tammy Lundeen came down
from Int to interview me,

and she asked me
about Leah leaving

'cause your thing was
going public at the time,

and, like, was I leaving
because you were leaving,

or something like that?

- Uh, wha... that's weird.
- Yeah, it was really weird.

She kinda brought
it up kinda subtly.

You know, "Have you... did
you hear about this?"

And, "Was this"... you know...
"She's being handled".

Or something like that.

- "She's being handled?"
- Yeah.

They did a good job. Handled
the hell out of you.

They made me realize
that I actually do have

the fucking rank to be
asking about Scientology.

- You do, too, Mike.
- You have the fucking rank.

- And so do you, Paul.
- Yes.

You have the fucking rank.

And so does everybody at home.

Have you ever heard
of a church...

A place calling
itself a church...

That is saying to
the parishioners,

"You need to live
below your means

"because that's
really not important.

"But what's important is
that you not only pay

"for your services but then
we need you to go into debt

for our fancy buildings".

Insanity.