Killing Richard Glossip (2017–…): Season 1, Episode 2 - An Obvious Homicide - full transcript
YOU KNOW, WE WATCHED
YOUR INTERROGATION TAPE.
I MEAN, WHAT WAS IT LIKE TO BE
BROUGHT INTO THAT ROOM
AND JUST BE CONFRONTED
WITH SOMETHING LIKE THAT?
HE THINKS THAT'S GONNA WORK,
THAT HE'S NOT INVOLVED,
JUST BECAUSE HE DIDN'T
ACTUALLY DO THE KILLIN'.
BUT WHEN YOU PLAN
SOMETHING LIKE THIS,
YOU'RE MORE INVOLVED
THAN THE ACTUAL KILLER.
THE STUFF HE'S SAYIN'
IS JUST --
THAT GUY IS SUCH A LIAR.
JUST --
HE WOULDN'T KNOW THE TRUTH
IF IT HIT HIM
RIGHT BETWEEN THE EYES.
**
IN OKLAHOMA,
DEATH ROW INMATE RICHARD GLOSSIP
IS LIVING ON BORROWED TIME.
ALREADY, HE'S BEEN
ON THE BRINK OF EXECUTION
ON THREE SEPARATE OCCASIONS.
NOW, ONCE AGAIN, THE STATE IS
PREPARING TO PUT HIM TO DEATH,
ON CHARGES OF HIRING ANOTHER MAN
TO COMMIT MURDER.
BUT FAR TOO MANY TROUBLING
QUESTIONS SWIRL AROUND HIS CASE.
I'M NOT IN THIS THING, MAN!
I'M REALLY NOT.
I'M JOE BERLINGER.
AS A DOCUMENTARY FILMMAKER,
I'VE SPENT MY CAREER SHINING
A LIGHT ON STORIES OF INJUSTICE.
WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THAT?
THEY'RE READY TO KILL THIS GUY.
I THINK IT'S
A REAL BAD DEAL.
AS GLOSSIP'S LAWYERS SEARCH
FOR NEW EVIDENCE...
EVERYTHING PRETTY MUCH
HAPPENED RIGHT HERE.
...TIME IS RUNNING OUT.
DID THE SYSTEM GET IT WRONG
WITH RICHARD GLOSSIP?
IT'S AN INNOCENT MAN
WHO'S GONNA EXECUTED
IF WE DON'T DO
SOMETHING ABOUT IT NOW.
WE ARE THE LAST, BEST
CHANCE THAT RICH HAS,
AND WE HAVE TO SUCCEED
BECAUSE, IF WE FAIL,
HE DIES.
WHY IS OKLAHOMA SO HELLBENT
ON KILLING RICHARD GLOSSIP?
IN SEPTEMBER OF 2015,
RICHARD GLOSSIP RECEIVED
HIS THIRD STAY OF EXECUTION.
NOW, HE IS POTENTIALLY
JUST MONTHS AWAY
FROM YET ANOTHER EXECUTION DATE.
HIS ONLY REAL HOPE
OF GETTING BACK INTO COURT
IS FOR HIS LAWYERS TO FIND
HARD PROOF OF HIS INNOCENCE.
YOU KNOW, WHENEVER I'M DOING
AN INVESTIGATION,
REALLY, ONE OF THE MOST
IMPORTANT THINGS FOR ME TO DO
IS TO GO AND SEE
WHERE IT HAPPENED.
BUT PROVING A MAN'S INNOCENCE
20 YEARS AFTER THE FACT
IS A NEARLY IMPOSSIBLE MISSION,
ESPECIALLY IN A CASE THAT LACKS
SIGNIFICANT FORENSIC EVIDENCE,
SO GLOSSIP'S LEGAL TEAM
HAS TRAVELED TO OKLAHOMA
TO SEE WHAT EVIDENCE
THEY CAN UNCOVER.
HOW ARE YOU?
THANK YOU FOR
LETTING US GO AHEAD
AND TAKE A LOOK AT THIS.
WE'RE LOOKIN' TO SEE
ROOM 102, IF WE CAN.
- OKAY.
**
GOSH, THIS IS NOT
A VERY BIG SPACE
FOR WHAT HAPPENED.
IT ISN'T, IS IT?
IT'S UNSETTLING THAT,
I MEAN,
THIS IS EXACT SPOT
A MAN WAS KILLED.
THAT'S HORRIBLE.
IN A HORRIBLE WAY.
- IT'S SAD.
- YES, IT IS.
WE REALLY CAN'T LOSE
PERSPECTIVE ON THAT.
THE THING THAT'S EVEN SADDER
THAN THAT IS TRYING TO THINK OF
THE STATE KILLING ANOTHER
INNOCENT MAN BECAUSE OF IT.
THE JOB OF A POLICE
INVESTIGATOR,
THE JOB OF A DETECTIVE,
IS TO FIND OUT WHAT HAPPENED.
SO, IN ORDER TO BE EFFECTIVE,
YOU HAVE TO ACTUALLY
DO INVESTIGATION.
YOU HAVE TO ACTUALLY GO
DO THE WORK.
BUT THAT'S NOT
WHAT HAPPENED HERE.
THERE ARE A LOT OF THINGS,
EVEN IN THE REPORTS,
THAT HAPPENED BACK THEN
THAT DIDN'T MATCH UP.
THE GLOSSIP CASE WAS REALLY,
REALLY BIZARRE TO ME
BECAUSE, AS A REPORTER,
YOU GET WHAT THE POLICE SAY,
BUT THEN YOU START
HAVIN' SOME QUESTIONS.
YOU'RE LOOKIN' FOR DETAILS
AND AFFIDAVITS
AND ARREST WARRANTS.
DETAILS THAT THE POLICE
PROVIDE, THAT SAY,
"THIS GUY DID IT.
HERE'S THE EVIDENCE,"
AND THAT WASN'T HERE.
AND THEN YOU FIND OUT
HOW MANIPULATIVE
THAT THE DETECTIVES WERE.
MY REACTION TO THOSE PEOPLE
THAT ARE DEFENDING
RICHARD GLOSSIP
AS BEING INNOCENT,
THEY DIDN'T SEE
WHAT HE CAUSED TO HAPPEN
TO THE VICTIM,
BARRY VAN TREESE.
IF THEY ONLY KNEW THE BRUTALITY
THAT WAS INVOLVED
IN THIS HOMICIDE,
IF THEY ONLY UNDERSTOOD
ALL THE FACTORS
THAT WERE INVOLVED,
I WONDER IF THEY WOULD
STILL STAND UP FOR HIM.
I WAS A DETECTIVE
IN THE OKLAHOMA CITY POLICE
DEPARTMENT'S HOMICIDE UNIT,
SO I WAS AN INSPECTOR
AND MY PARTNER ALSO,
BILL COOK, WAS AN INSPECTOR.
WE WORKED TOGETHER
FOR QUITE SOME TIME
AND I THINK WE RESOLVED
SOMEWHERE CLOSE
TO 95% OF OUR CASELOAD.
OUR LIEUTENANT HAD
CALLED ME AND ADVISED
THAT WE HAD A CRIME SCENE
AT THE BEST BUDGET INN,
THAT WAS LOCATED
OUT ON COUNCIL ROAD.
****
MR. VAN TREESE WAS LAYING
NEXT TO THE BED.
YOU COULD SEE WHERE THE SHADES
HAD BEEN RUFFLED A LITTLE BIT
AND THE GLASS HAD BEEN
BROKEN OUT IN THE WINDOW
AND IT WAS JUST TYPICAL
OF A SCUFFLE IN THERE.
BEMO INTERVIEWED A FEW MOTEL
EMPLOYEES AND GUESTS
AT THE SCENE.
JUSTIN SNEED'S NAME CAME UP,
BUT HE WAS NOWHERE TO BE FOUND.
SO BEMO TURNED HIS ATTENTION
TO RICHARD GLOSSIP.
HE'S THE MANAGER OF THE MOTEL
AND HE'S THE ONE
THAT'S SUPPOSED TO KNOW
WHAT'S GOIN' ON OUT THERE
AND HE KNOWS BARRY VAN TREESE.
THIS IS THE PERSON
THAT YOU JUST WANNA TALK TO
AND SEE WHAT HE'S GOT TO SAY.
AT THE SCENE,
BEMO GREW INCREASINGLY
SUSPICIOUS OF GLOSSIP.
GLOSSIP HAD MADE SEVERAL
INCONSISTENT STATEMENTS
TO BRING SUSPICION ON HIMSELF.
HE'D GET DATES WRONG.
HE APPEARED TO BE NERVOUS
AND, AS WE TALKED TO HIM,
I JUST FELT LIKE HE KNEW A LOT
MORE THAN WHAT HE WAS SAYING
BECAUSE OF THE WAY
HE WAS ACTING.
ACCORDING TO POLICE REPORTS,
GLOSSIP TOLD MOTEL
SECURITY MAN CLIFF EVERHART
AND PATROL OFFICER TIM BROWN
DIFFERENT STORIES
ABOUT WHEN HE HAD
LAST SEEN BARRY.
SO THE POLICE SAY YOU GAVE
CONFLICTING STATEMENTS.
YOU TOLD TIM BROWN YOU SAW BARRY
WALKING THROUGH THE PARKING LOT
AT 7:00 THAT MORNING.
YOU TOLD CLIFF EVERHART THAT YOU
SAW BARRY RETURN TO THE HOTEL.
I MEAN --
- NO, EVERYBODY ASKED ME
WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME
I SEEN BARRY.
WHEN THEY ASKED ME
WHEN I'D SEEN BARRY,
7:30 THE NIGHT BEFORE.
THAT'S EXACTLY
WHAT I TOLD THEM.
THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT I TOLD
BEMO AND TIM BROWN.
THEY DECIDED I WAS MAKING
CONFLICTING STATEMENTS.
I NEVER SAID I SEEN HIM
THAT MORNING,
AND I'VE ALWAYS SAID,
FROM DAY ONE,
THAT IT WAS 7:30
THE NIGHT BEFORE.
YOU SEE THEM COMING AFTER
RICHARD RIGHT AWAY, HARD,
BUT YOU CAN KIND OF SEE
A THREAD,
A TRAIN OF THOUGHT
THAT THEY'RE ALREADY HAVING.
AND THEN AS IT PROGRESSES,
THAT TRAIN OF THOUGHT
BECOMES THE NARRATIVE.
IN OTHER WORDS, YOU KIND OF GET
A TUNNEL VISION GOING ON.
THE THING ABOUT IT IS, IS THAT
YOU DON'T WANT TO GIVE HIM
A CHANCE TO CONCOCT A STORY.
YOU WANT TO KNOW WHAT HIS STORY
IS RIGHT OFF THE BAT,
AND THAT'S WHY
WE HAVE HIM DOWN THERE.
THEY KEEP SAYING,
"WE'RE GONNA FIND JUSTIN."
AND THEY KEEP ASKING HIM,
"DO YOU KNOW WHERE HE IS?"
HE SAYS,
"NO, BUT I WISH I DID.
HE'S YOUR GUY."
BUT IT SEEMS LIKE THEY JUST
REALLY COULD NOT STOP
LOOKING AT GLOSSIP.
LIKE I SAID, HE'S VERY
ARROGANT AND VERY COCKY.
HE WAS ONE OF THOSE KIND OF GUYS
THAT REALLY IRRITATES YOU,
YOU KNOW, WITH HIS COMEBACKS
AND WITH WHAT HE WAS SAYIN',
AND THAT'S WHY I WOULD GET
IN FACE SOMETIMES,
"WELL, I'LL TELL YOU
WHAT, BUDDY,"
OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT,
YOU KNOW,
'CAUSE HE IRRITATED ME
A LITTLE BIT.
IT'S ALMOST AS IF
THEY'RE NOT REALLY EVEN
LISTENING TO WHAT
HE'S SAYING NECESSARILY...
WHICH SUGGESTS TO ME
A LEVEL OF TUNNEL VISION
AND FOCUS ON RICHARD GLOSSIP
THAT IT WOULD BE
RELATIVELY IMPOSSIBLE
FOR RICHARD TO OVERCOME.
I WANT TO GET REAL SPECIFIC
ON THE DAY AND WHAT HAPPENED.
JUSTIN SAYS, YOU KNOW,
YOU CAME INTO HIS ROOM,
TOLD HIM TO GO KILL BARRY
WITH A BASEBALL BAT.
WELL, THAT'S NOT TRUE.
JUSTIN KNOWS
THAT'S NOT TRUE.
SO WHAT WERE YOU ACTUALLY
DOING DURING THIS TIME PERIOD?
WERE YOU ASLEEP,
OR WHAT WAS GOING ON?
D'ANNA AND I WENT
TO BED AROUND MIDNIGHT.
AND, THE NEXT THING I KNOW,
SHE WOKE ME UP
AND TOLD ME SOMEBODY
WAS BEATING ON THE DOOR,
SO I GOT UP TO SEE WHO IT WAS
AND IT WAS JUSTIN.
AND D'ANNA EVEN TOLD DETECTIVES
THIS AND EVEN TESTIFIED TO THAT,
AND THEY JUST WASN'T
GONNA LISTEN.
D'ANNA, IN HER STATEMENT,
BASICALLY ALIBIED FOR RICH,
WHERE HE WAS,
WHEN HE WAS WITH HER,
AND YET THE POLICE CHOSE
TO IGNORE THAT.
WHEN WE FIRST COME
ACROSS D'ANNA WOOD,
WE ASKED GLOSSIP WHO SHE WAS
AND HE SAID THAT SHE WAS
HIS GIRLFRIEND
THAT SHE LIVED WITH HIM
AND SHE HELPED HIM
RUN THE MOTEL.
I DO BELIEVE GLOSSIP
KEPT HER OUT OF THIS.
I WAS CONVINCED, YOU KNOW,
HE WASN'T TELLING US THE TRUTH.
JUST COULDN'T PROVE IT,
YOU KNOW.
AT THAT MOMENT, ANYWAY.
AND SO, BY AND LARGE,
ONCE WE FINISHED THIS INTERVIEW,
WE LET HIM GO AND THOUGHT,
"WELL, THERE'LL BE ANOTHER DAY."
**
WHEN I GOT BACK THAT NIGHT
FROM MY INTERVIEW,
THERE WAS A LADY
SITTING AT THE DESK
AND I DON'T KNOW
IF SHE WAS A FRIEND
OR A FAMILY MEMBER
OF THE VAN TREESES,
AND SHE PULLS ME ASIDE
AND SHE SAYS,
"ARE YOU SUPPOSED
TO TALK TO THEM AGAIN?"
AND I SAID, "YES," AND SHE GOES,
"DON'T TALK TO THEM
WITHOUT AN ATTORNEY.
YOU DON'T KNOW HOW THINGS
CAN GET TWISTED,"
IS WHAT SHE TOLD ME.
AND WHEN SHE SAID THAT,
THAT'S WHEN I STARTED THINKIN',
"MAYBE I SHOULD TALK
TO AN ATTORNEY."
WE HAD HEARD THAT RICHARD WAS
TRYING TO GET RID OF HIS STUFF
SO HE COULD LEAVE TOWN,
SO WE ASKED A COUPLE OF GUYS
FROM SPECIAL PROJECTS
TO WATCH HIM.
BUT WHILE THE COPS BELIEVED
GLOSSIP WAS SELLING
HIS POSSESSIONS
IN ORDER TO FLEE,
HE TELLS A DIFFERENT STORY.
YES, I STARTED
SELLING EVERYTHING,
BUT THE ONLY REASON I DID THAT
WAS TO GET THAT ATTORNEY,
DAVID McKENZIE.
I WAS THE FIRST LAWYER
THAT RICHARD GLOSSIP SPOKE WITH.
I TELL EVERYBODY
THAT COMES UNDER MY CHARGE
THAT THEY SHOULD NOT TALK
TO THE POLICE.
AND SO I CALLED THE POLICE
AND SAID,
"HE'S NOT GOING TO COOPERATE
WITH YOU ANY FURTHER."
HE WALKED OUT OF MY OFFICE,
GOT IN THE ELEVATOR,
WENT DOWNSTAIRS.
WHEN HE OPENED THE FRONT DOOR,
GUNS WERE DRAWN
AND HE WAS PLACED UNDER ARREST.
FOR THE SECOND TIME,
GLOSSIP AGREES TO TALK TO THE
POLICE WITHOUT LEGAL COUNSEL.
OKAY, RICHARD.
GLOSSIP TELLS BEMO
HIS VERSION OF EVENTS AGAIN.
HOWEVER, GLOSSIP'S ACCOUNT
OF WHAT TOOK PLACE THAT NIGHT
HAS ONE, SIGNIFICANT CHANGE.
TELL ME AGAIN WHAT JUSTIN SAID.
WITH A SMILE ON HIS FACE,
HE SAID,
"I KILLED BARRY."
AND HE ALWAYS MADE JOKES
OF ONE TYPE OR ANOTHER,
SO, WHEN I LOOKED AT HIM,
THE EXPRESSION ON HIS FACE
AND STUFF,
I JUST DIDN'T BELIEVE HIM.
- SO YOU THOUGHT HE WAS JOKING.
- EXACTLY, LIKE HE ALWAYS DID.
BUT ONCE YOU'RE
IN THE INTERROGATION ROOM,
IT WAS A MISTAKE NOT TO TALK
ABOUT WHAT JUSTIN HAD SAID.
SO TAKE ME THROUGH YOUR THINKING
ABOUT WHY YOU DECIDED
TO WITHHOLD THAT INFORMATION,
'CAUSE THAT'S A BIG ONE,
YOU KNOW?
THAT'S A BIG --
- NO, IT REALLY IS.
I WAS GONNA TELL THEM,
UNTIL DETECTIVE BEMO STARTED
ACCUSIN' ME OF THINGS, BUT,
WHEN I GOT TO THAT POINT,
I'M SITTING THERE, GOING,
"SOMETHING'S REALLY WRONG HERE,"
AND IT MADE ME NERVOUS
TO SAY ANYTHING,
AT THAT POINT, TO THEM.
- RIGHT.
I JUST STARTED
NOT TRUSTING THEM.
- YEAH.
- IT'S PROBABLY NOT
THE SMARTEST DECISION I MADE.
I'M NOT SAYING I'M NOT.
AND I'VE SAID IT BEFORE
AND I'LL SAY IT AGAIN,
"IF STUPID IS A CRIME,
THEN I'M GUILTY."
YEAH, THAT'S BAD. BUT,
I DON'T THINK THAT MAKES HIM
A CAPITAL-MURDER DEFENDANT.
I THINK THAT MIGHT MAKE HIM
AN ACCESSORY AFTER THE FACT.
THAT'S WHAT THEY CAN PROVE.
THAT'S WHAT HE'S ADMITTED TO.
THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO
FORENSIC EVIDENCE, WHATSOEVER,
THAT WOULD PUT RICHARD GLOSSIP
INSIDE ROOM 102
AT ANY POINT DURING THIS PERIOD.
NOT ANY SIGN OF HIM.
BUT THERE'S DNA FROM
JUSTIN SNEED ALL OVER THE ROOM.
TO OFFICIALLY CHARGE GLOSSIP,
THE POLICE WOULD NEED
MORE EVIDENCE.
THEY WOULD NEED
TO FIND JUSTIN SNEED.
PROBABLE CAUSE WAS ENOUGH
THAT WE COULD HOLD GLOSSIP
FOR THAT MURDER,
AND, OF COURSE,
YOU HAVE A FEW DAYS
BEFORE YOU FILE YOUR CHARGES.
FORTUNATELY, WE WERE ABLE
TO LOCATE JUSTIN SNEED
AND HE WAS ABLE TO TELL US
THE STORY AS IT HAPPENED
AND THAT'S WHAT HE DID.
**
WITH NO FORENSIC EVIDENCE
THAT SHOWS GLOSSIP WAS PRESENT
INSIDE ROOM 102
ON THE NIGHT OF THE MURDER,
POLICE WOULD RELY HEAVILY
ON JUSTIN SNEED'S TESTIMONY
TO BUILD THEIR CASE
AGAINST GLOSSIP.
IT'S ONE MAN'S WORD
AGAINST ANOTHER,
AND THE WHOLE CASE PIVOTS
ON WHETHER OR NOT SNEED'S STORY
CAN BE BELIEVED.
MY NAME IS JUSTIN SNEED
AND WE'RE AT JOSEPH HARP
CORRECTIONAL CENTER IN OKLAHOMA.
AND HOW LONG YOU BEEN HERE?
I'VE BEEN HERE
SINCE NOVEMBER OF 1999.
JUSTIN SNEED CAME
TO OKLAHOMA CITY FROM TEXAS
IN JULY OF 1996,
LEAVING TWO YOUNG KIDS BEHIND.
WITHIN WEEKS,
HE PICKED UP WORK
AS A MAINTENANCE MAN
AT THE BEST BUDGET INN.
I'D BEEN AT THE BEST BUDGET INN
SINCE LATE JULY,
AND THIS WAS THE BEGINNING
OF OCTOBER.
THEN, THAT'S WHEN MR. GLOSSIP
WAS ASKIN' ME
OR APPROACHIN' ME ABOUT KILLING
MR. VAN TREESE FOR MONEY,
AND IT WAS IN JANUARY
WHEN THE MURDER HAPPENED.
FOR ABOUT 3 MONTHS,
HE WAS ASKING YOU TO KILL?
YEAH. I KEPT TELLING HIM NO,
I DIDN'T WANT TO DO IT.
AND WHAT WAS THE PLAN,
YOU KNOW,
LIKE DID HE GIVE YOU
A PLAN?
HE KNEW MS. VAN TREESE
PRETTY GOOD
AND HE THOUGHT THAT,
WITH MR. VAN TREESE
OUT OF THE PICTURE,
THAT HE COULD MANIPULATE HER.
THEY HAD MULTIPLE MOTELS
AND THAT HE WOULD SET ME UP
IN RUNNIN' ONE OF THEM
AND STUFF LIKE THAT.
THAT NIGHT, BEFORE I'D CRASHED
OUT AND WENT TO SLEEP,
I CAN'T REALLY REMEMBER
IF I HAD SMOKED SOME MARIJUANA.
IT'S VERY POSSIBLE
THAT I COULD'VE
BECAUSE I WAS STONED MOST OF THE
TIME I WAS AT THAT MOTEL.
I WAS ASLEEP IN MY ROOM
WHEN MR. GLOSSIP CAME
TO MY BEDROOM.
OF COURSE, HE HAD MASTER KEYS,
SO ALL I DO IS REMEMBER
WAKING UP TO HIM BEING,
YOU KNOW, IN MY FACE.
HE JUST BECAME REAL ADAMANT
ABOUT HOW MR. VAN TREESE
HAD JUST SHOWED UP
AND, UM,
THAT HE WAS WILLIN'
TO UP THE MONEY TO $7,500,
IF I WOULD GO KILL HIM THEN.
AND I WAS KIND OF BEIN'
ADAMANT AGAINST IT,
JUST KIND OF SHAKIN' MY HEAD.
YOU KNOW, HE'S STANDIN' THERE,
POKIN' HIS FINGER AT ME
AND TRYIN' TO TELL ME
TO JUST GO DO IT
AND BEIN' REAL AGGRESSIVE
ABOUT IT.
I CAN'T FIGURE OUT EXACTLY
AT WHAT POINT I DECIDED
TO JUST GRAB THE BAT
AND GO OVER THERE.
I JUST REMEMBER GOING OVER THERE
AND OPENING THE DOOR.
WOULD YOU MIND TELLING ME
WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED,
YOU KNOW,
THE MURDER ITSELF?
I- I DON'T REALLY WANNA
SPEAK ON THAT,
AS FAR AS, UM,
WHAT I ACTUALLY DID.
I'M STILL TRYING TO SOAK
A LOT OF THAT IN AND I...
AND I REALLY ONLY FEEL
IN MY HEART
THAT I WOULD REALLY
ONLY WANT TO SPEAK ON THAT
IF THE WIDOW CAME TO ME
AND TOLD ME
THAT SHE WANTED TO KNOW.
AND THEN I WOULDN'T
HOLD NOTHIN' BACK FROM HER.
AT THE END OF THE DAY,
WHAT DO YOU WANT PEOPLE
TO KNOW ABOUT THIS?
I JUST WANT 'EM TO KNOW THAT
I'M STANDIN' ON THE TRUTH
FOR A PURPOSE.
IT'S THE ONLY WAY
THAT I CAN STAND RIGHT NOW,
IS ON THE TRUTH.
JUSTIN SNEED STANDS BY WHAT
HE CLAIMS TO BE THE TRUTH.
BUT HOW DOES THE STORY
HE TELLS TODAY
STAND UP
TO HIS INITIAL CONFESSION?
THE OKLAHOMA CITY
POLICE DEPARTMENT,
THEY WERE VERY PROUD OF THEIR
HIGH ARREST AND CONVICTION RATE.
WHATEVER IT TOOK TO MAKE
AN ARREST, THEY WOULD DO.
IN 1982, WHEN I CAME TO WORK
IN THE PUBLIC DEFENDER'S OFFICE,
BOB MACY WAS
THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY.
HE HAD MORE DEATH-PENALTY
CONVICTIONS
THAN ALMOST ANY OTHER
PROSECUTOR IN THE COUNTRY.
HE WAS VERY PROUD OF THAT FACT.
SO IT LENT ITSELF
TO A ENVIRONMENT,
I BELIEVE, WHERE DREAM
CONFESSIONS WERE IN VOGUE
AND THAT'S I THINK
WHAT HAPPENED TO SNEED.
THEY ALREADY BELIEVE
THAT RICHARD BASICALLY
COMPELLED JUSTIN SNEED
TO KILL BARRY VAN TREESE.
AND SO WHEN THEY GET
SNEED IN THE ROOM,
THEY LEAD HIM EXACTLY DOWN THE
PATH OF WHERE THEY WANT TO GO.
I WANTED HIM TO UNDERSTAND
THAT WE KNEW OTHER PEOPLE
WERE INVOLVED IN THIS,
AND UNLESS HE WAS WILLING
TO LET US KNOW WHO THEY WERE,
HE WAS GONNA HAVE TO
TAKE THE WHOLE RAP.
AND IT WASN'T ANY TASK
TO BREAK JUSTIN DOWN
BECAUSE HE DIDN'T HAVE A VERY
STRONG WILL TO BEGIN WITH.
WELL...
BEFORE SNEED EVEN CONFESSES
TO THE MURDER,
DETECTIVE BEMO OFFERS UP
RICHARD GLOSSIP BY NAME.
WELL --
HE DOESN'T EVEN
GET A STORY FROM SNEED,
ESSENTIALLY, BEFORE HE SAYS,
"WE KNOW YOU DIDN'T DO
THIS ALONE," AND THEN,
"DID YOU KNOW THAT
RICH HAS BEEN ARRESTED, TOO?"
WHICH, OF COURSE, SNEED DID
NOT KNOW AT THAT TIME.
JUSTIN'S FIRST STATEMENT
THAT HE MADE TO POLICE
NEVER INCLUDED ME IN ANYTHING.
I WAS NEVER INCLUDED
UNTIL BEMO AND THEM
PUT THAT THOUGHT IN HIS MIND.
SNEED COMES UP
WITH A DREAM CONFESSION.
BUT THOSE FACTS
WERE INTERJECTED EARLY ON
IN THE INTERROGATION PROCESS.
HE TOLD US THAT RICHARD
CAME AND TOLD HIM
THAT BARRY WAS IN ROOM 102
AND THAT HE COULD GO IN THERE
AND STEAL HIS CAR KEYS AND --
AND THEY COULD GET THE MONEY.
I DECIDED TO TRUST HIM
BECAUSE I THOUGHT
THAT THEY WERE GOING TO
KEEP THEIR WORD AND THEY
WERE GOING TO HELP ME AND --
AND, BY HELPING ME,
I REALLY THOUGHT IN MY OWN MIND
THAT THEY WERE GONNA
ALLOW ME TO GO HOME.
FROM WHAT WE CAN TELL, WITH
THE HELP OF POLICE OFFICERS,
JUSTIN SNEED SIMPLY MADE UP
A STORY TO HELP HIMSELF.
DON KNIGHT BELIEVES
THE POLICE INVESTIGATION
IN GLOSSIP'S CASE LEAVES
MANY QUESTIONS UNANSWERED.
CERTAINLY, BEMO IS
A SUCCESSFUL HOMICIDE DETECTIVE,
BUT IN RECENT YEARS, SOME
OF HIS CASES HAVE BEEN REVIEWED,
AND CONVICTIONS OVERTURNED.
I'M NOT AT ALL WORRIED.
I MEAN, THEY CAN GO THROUGH
ANY REVIEWS THEY WANT
AND, IF THEY DO THAT,
THAT'S THEIR DECISIONS.
I'VE NEVER DONE ANYTHING
THAT I FELT WAS WRONG,
AND I'VE NEVER PUT ANYBODY IN
JAIL THAT DIDN'T BELONG THERE.
IF THEY WOULD'VE
DONE THEIR JOB,
I WOULDN'T HAVE SPENT
A DAY IN JAIL.
THEY JUST...
WANTED TO CLEAR THIS THING UP
AS QUICK AS POSSIBLE,
AND IT WAS EASIER TO GET ME
'CAUSE I WAS RIGHT
IN FRONT OF HIM.
AND THAT'S THE SAD THING
ABOUT THE JUSTICE SYSTEM:
YOU DON'T NEED EVIDENCE.
YOU CAN JUST COME IN
WITH A STORY, CONVINCE THEM,
AND YOU GOT 'EM.
**
I WANNA START OUR MEETING
WHERE I THINK EVERYTHING
REALLY BEGINS IN THIS CASE,
WHICH IS THE INVESTIGATION.
AND I THINK WHAT WE DUG INTO
HERE PRETTY QUICKLY WAS THE FACT
THAT THERE JUST WASN'T
A WHOLE LOT THAT WAS DONE.
WITH A POSSIBLE EXECUTION DATE
FOR RICHARD GLOSSIP
JUST MONTHS AWAY,
DON KNIGHT HAS RETAINED
QUINN O'BRIEN,
A PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR
WHO SPECIALIZES
IN DEATH-PENALTY CASES.
THE ORIGINAL INVESTIGATION LEFT
TOO MANY QUESTIONS
UNANSWERED FOR ME.
WHY ARE WE BELIEVING
JUSTIN SNEED?
WHY DID THE POLICE
NOT CANVASS THE HOTEL?
EITHER THERE ARE
POLICE DOCUMENTS MISSING,
THAT WE DON'T HAVE.
THEY MIGHT NEVER HAVE BEEN
MADE IN THE FIRST PLACE,
AND ONE OF THE ONLY WAYS
WE'RE GOING TO FIND OUT
IF POLICE EVER TALKED
TO THESE PEOPLE
IS TO GO TALK TO GUESTS OF THE
BEST BUDGET INN OURSELVES.
SO THIS IS THE SHEET OF PAPER
THAT MARKS DOWN
WHO'S STAYING IN WHAT ROOM
THE WEEK OF JANUARY 1st
THROUGH THE 7th.
THEY MIGHT BE ABLE TO TELL US
JUST, YOU KNOW, WHAT WAS THERE.
WHAT DID THEY SEE?
THIS IS WHAT WE HAVE TO DO
WITH ALL OF HIS
LEGAL OPTIONS EXHAUSTED.
WE DON'T HAVE ANY CHOICES
AT THIS POINT
EXCEPT FOR TO KNOCK ON EVERY
SINGLE DOOR WE CAN KNOCK ON
AND HOPE THAT WE FIND SOMETHING.
SO WHAT HAPPENED?
A WOMAN ANSWERED THE DOOR
AND SHE SAID THAT
SHE IS NOT THE PERSON
THAT WE WERE LOOKING FOR.
**
DO YOU REMEMBER ANYBODY AT ALL,
ANYBODY IN ANY ROOMS
THAT YOU CAN RECALL AT ALL?
- NO, SIR.
- OKAY.
- A WOMAN ANSWERED AND SHE WAS --
- SHE SHUT THE DOOR
BEFORE WE COULD ASK.
- YEAH, SHE WAS REALLY
NOT INTERESTED
IN TALKING TO US.
**
NO LUCK THERE.
NOBODY WAS HOME HERE.
YEAH, NO ONE HOME.
SO WHERE ARE WE HEADED NOW?
WELL, WE ARE LOOKING
FOR SOMEBODY
THAT JUSTIN SNEED HAS IDENTIFIED
AS SOMEBODY THAT HE KNEW
BACK IN THE DAY,
ROGER LEE RAMSEY,
WHO WAS SOMEBODY WHO WAS
IN JAIL WITH SNEED
IMMEDIATELY AFTER HIS ARREST.
AND WE CAN'T REALLY SAY
AT THIS POINT IN TIME
THAT IT'S GOING TO DRAW
SOME DIRECT LINE TO INNOCENCE,
BUT IT'S THE TOUGH SPADEWORK
THAT WE'RE DOING.
YOU KEEP DIGGIN'.
WHEN WE LOOK BACK AT IT,
THERE WERE PLENTY OF LEADS
THAT COULD'VE BEEN PURSUED.
BUT BEMO AND COOK
THOUGHT THEY HAD THEIR MAN
AND THERE WAS NOT GONNA BE
ANY FURTHER INVESTIGATION,
WHATSOEVER.
THEY HEARD WHAT THEY WANTED
TO HEAR FROM SNEED,
THEY GO TO GET GLOSSIP,
AND THEN HE'S ON DEATH ROW
BECAUSE OF THAT.
OF COURSE, AFTER DOIN'
THE INTERVIEWS WITH GLOSSIP
AND WITH JUSTIN SNEED,
I FELT THE MOTIVE
IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE
WAS AS SIMPLE AS A ROBBERY
AND THE FACT THAT
RICHARD GLOSSIP WANTED
TO TAKE OVER THE MOTEL
AS HIS OWN.
BEMO AND COOK BUILT A CASE
OF MURDER-FOR-HIRE,
A CAPITAL OFFENSE IN OKLAHOMA,
AGAINST GLOSSIP.
YOU COULD TALK TO JUSTIN
AND YOU JUST KNEW THIS KID
WAS NOT SMART ENOUGH
TO PLAN SOMETHING LIKE THIS.
SO, YOU KNOW, IT WASN'T THAT WE
COERCED HIM INTO SAYING GLOSSIP.
GLOSSIP WAS THE MASTERMIND
BEHIND IT.
ACCORDING TO THE DETECTIVES,
GLOSSIP MANIPULATED SNEED
INTO COMMITTING THIS MURDER.
IT'S HARD FOR YOU
AND I TO REALIZE
THAT GLOSSIP HAD THAT KIND
OF INFLUENCE OVER SNEED,
BUT THAT'S BECAUSE
WE'RE DIFFERENT TYPES OF PEOPLE.
I ACTUALLY FELT SORRY FOR HIM.
THAT WAS NOT NECESSARILY
ONE OF THE THINGS
THAT I DID VERY OFTEN
TOWARD SUSPECTS AND MURDERERS.
AS I UNDERSTAND IT,
RICHARD GLOSSIP HAD
QUITE A HOLD OVER YOU.
I DON'T KNOW. I GUESS
I WAS THAT VULNERABLE AND MEEK
AND HE WAS JUST
A CONSTANT VOICE, UM, AND --
GUIDANCE I HAD,
I GUESS YOU CAN SAY.
IT WASN'T THE FRIENDSHIP
THAT PEOPLE LIKE THE D.A.
TRIED TO MAKE IT SOUND OUT
TO BE.
IT WASN'T THAT TYPE
OF FRIENDSHIP AT ALL.
YEAH.
YOU KNOW, THIS IDEA
THAT YOU HAD CONTROL
OVER HIM, THAT
YOU COULD INFLUENCE
SOMEBODY TO COMMIT MURDER,
I MEAN, TELL ME WHAT
YOU THINK OF THAT IDEA.
IT'S A CRAZY IDEA.
CRAZY IDEA.
D'ANNA EVEN TRIED
TO EXPLAIN IT TO 'EM, TOO.
WE HAD TROUBLE FINDING HIM
TO DO THINGS AROUND THE MOTEL.
WE HAD TROUBLE...
HE WOULD DISAPPEAR
FOR LIKE 2 DAYS AT A TIME
AND HE'D COME BACK.
SO I MEAN,
WHERE IS THERE CONTROL?
THE IDEA THAT JUSTIN IS JUST
SO HAPLESS AND USELESS,
THAT'S VERY, VERY, VERY, VERY
POSITIVE FOR JUSTIN, RIGHT?
THAT'S VERY SELF-SERVING,
FOR HIM, TO DO THAT,
BUT I DON'T KNOW
THAT I BELIEVE THAT.
MOST OF THE EVIDENCE AGAINST
GLOSSIP WAS CIRCUMSTANTIAL,
INCLUDING WHAT WOULD BECOME
CENTRAL TO THIS CASE:
THE MONEY GLOSSIP HAD
IN HIS POSSESSION
WHEN HE WAS ARRESTED.
IT WAS JUST UNDER $2,000,
ROUGHLY THE SAME AMOUNT
THAT POLICE RECOVERED
FROM SNEED.
BUT WHILE SNEED'S MONEY
WAS COVERED IN BLOOD,
GLOSSIP'S MONEY WAS CLEAN,
WITHOUT A DROP OF INCRIMINATING
BLOOD OR DNA.
ALL OF THE STUFF THAT THEY SAY
CORROBORATES
JUSTIN SNEED'S TESTIMONY
ABOUT RICHARD MASTERMINDING
THIS OPERATION IS REALLY WEAK.
AND I THINK THAT SHOULD BE
DISTURBING TO A LOT OF PEOPLE
'CAUSE YOU'RE NOT SUPPOSED
TO BE ALLOWED TO BE CONVICTED
ON THE WORD
OF AN ACCOMPLICE, ALONE.
THERE HAS TO BE SOMETHING
THAT CORROBORATES
WHAT THAT PERSON SAID
THAT IS MORE THAN
A MERE, TENUOUS CONNECTION
TO THE FACT THAT
A CRIME ACTUALLY HAPPENED.
AND YET, SNEED'S ORIGINAL
STATEMENT TO BEMO AND COOK,
ESPECIALLY HIS DESCRIPTION
ABOUT HOW THE CRIME WENT DOWN,
DOESN'T SEEM TO SUPPORT
THEIR THEORY OF MURDER-FOR-HIRE.
I MEAN, HE ENDED UP
KILLING BARRY.
I DON'T KNOW THAT HE
INTENDED TO, BUT HE DID.
HE BEAT HIM PRETTY GOOD, SO.
JUSTIN SAYS HE JUST MEANT
TO KNOCK BARRY OUT.
BEMO SAYS HE DOESN'T KNOW
IF JUSTIN INTENDED TO KILL HIM.
SO HOW CAN THIS MURDER
HAVE BEEN PLANNED?
THAT FITS WITH THE STORY
THAT THIS WAS A BURGLARY
THAT WAS BOTCHED,
AND THEN THE WHOLE
MURDER-FOR-HIRE STORY
GOES OUT THE WINDOW.
AND WHY WEREN'T THE POLICE
INTERESTED IN THAT?
THOSE ARE QUESTIONS
THAT I HAVE, YOU KNOW?
WHY WEREN'T THE POLICE
INTERESTED?
**
AFTER COUNTLESS HOURS
OF INVESTIGATION
AND NUMEROUS DEAD ENDS,
THE LEGAL TEAM'S HARD WORK SEEMS
TO HAVE FINALLY PAID OFF.
THEY'VE TRACKED DOWN
A POTENTIAL WITNESS,
ROGER LEE RAMSEY,
WHO WAS IN COUNTY JAIL
WITH JUSTIN SNEED.
GOOD TO SEE YA.
- YOU TOO.
- THANK YOU FOR TALKING TO US.
- YES, SIR.
DO YOU RECOGNIZE
THAT PICTURE?
YES, I DO.
THAT IS JUSTIN SNEED.
SO YOU GUYS WERE CELLMATES
RIGHT AFTER THIS MURDER.
- YES.
- AND WHAT WAS YOUR INTERACTION
WITH HIM LIKE? WHAT
WAS HE LIKE BACK THEN?
HE WAS LIKE A MAN
COMING OFF OF DRUGS.
HOW DO YOU MEAN?
HE ACTS JUST LIKE ALL
THE REST OF THE DOPE USERS,
JUST LIKE I DID.
- YEAH.
I DON'T THINK THERE IS
ANY SENSE OF THE FACT THAT
WHAT HE'D DONE
WAS REALLY WRONG.
I TAKE IT TO BE
THAT HE PROBABLY FELT
THAT HE WAS JUSTIFIED IN DOING
WHAT HE HAD TO DO
'CAUSE THEIR NUMBER-ONE
GOAL WAS MONEY FOR DRUGS.
AT WHAT POINT
DID HE ACTUALLY START
TALKING ABOUT THE CRIME?
ACTUALLY, IT WAS PROBABLY
WITHIN 2 OR 3 HOURS
OF HIM COMING IN.
AND WHAT WAS HIS STORY?
WHAT DID HE TELL YOU?
STORIES THAT HE WOULD TELL ME
WOULD CHANGE FROM TIME TO TIME.
THE ONLY THING THAT NEVER
DEVIATED FROM THE STORY
IS THE FACT THAT THERE WAS
MORE THAN HIM INVOLVED.
HIM AND WHOEVER ELSE
WERE GONNA ROB
A GUY THAT OWNED A MOTEL.
I DON'T THINK
THAT HE WENT THERE
WITH THE INTENTIONS
OF KILLIN' THAT MAN.
BUT HE DID NOT WANT
TO RELEASE THE MONEY,
SO THEY BEAT HIM TO DEATH.
THE VICTIM DID NOT WANT
TO RELEASE THE MONEY?
HE DID NOT WANT
TO GIVE UP HIS MONEY.
- SO THEY BEAT HIM.
- SO THEY BEAT HIM TO DEATH.
IT DOES BEG THE QUESTION
WHO THAT, YOU KNOW,
WHO THAT SECOND
PERSON WAS.
DID JUSTIN TELL YOU
THAT GLOSSIP --
JUSTIN NEVER MENTIONED
GLOSSIP'S NAME TO ME, EVER.
SNEED NEVER MENTIONED
GLOSSIP'S NAME.
NEVER MENTIONED
GLOSSIP'S NAME.
RIGHT.
AND WHAT WAS THE ROLE
OF THE OTHER PERSON?
THAT WAS, SUPPOSEDLY,
A GIRL'S JOB, WAS TO GET HIM
LURED OFF INTO THE ROOM.
SO WAS THAT...?
THAT WAS PART OF THEIR PLAN,
ACCORDING TO HIM.
LURE THE GUY INTO THE ROOM
WITH A GIRL?
YES.
ACCORDING TO THE POLICE,
JUSTIN SNEED SAID
HE WAS HIRED
BY RICHARD GLOSSIP
TO KILL THE MOTEL OWNER,
BARRY VAN TREESE.
DOES THAT SQUARE
WITH WHAT HE TOLD YOU?
NO, I NEVER HEARD THAT IT
WAS A MURDER-FOR-HIRE.
I JUST THINK SNEED WAS THERE
DOING SOMETHING THAT
HE SHOULDN'T HAVE BEEN DOING
AND GOT CAUGHT UP IN SOMETHING
THAT WENT REAL, REAL BAD.
ROGER LEE RAMSEY'S STORY
PROVIDES DON KNIGHT
WITH A POSSIBLE
ALTERNATIVE THEORY
TO THE MURDER
OF BARRY VAN TREESE.
AND, IF THIS THEORY
CAN BE CORROBORATED,
IT REALLY HAS THE POTENTIAL
TO BLOW GLOSSIP'S CASE
WIDE OPEN.
**
JUSTIN SNEED
NEVER SAID ANYTHING
ABOUT ANOTHER PERSON
BEING IN THE ROOM WITH HIM.
HE SAID HE KILLED
BARRY VAN TREESE BY HIMSELF,
AT THE BEHEST OF RICHARD.
THERE'S A MUCH
MORE PLAUSIBLE STORY:
THAT THERE WAS ANOTHER
WOMAN IN THAT ROOM
AND THAT THIS WAS
A BOTCHED ROBBERY.
I MEAN, THIS TO ME IS
LIKE, YOU KNOW,
WAS THERE SOMEBODY ELSE
IN THAT ROOM?
WHICH THROWS JUSTIN SNEED'S
STORY OUT THE WINDOW.
SO THAT'S THE SMOKING GUN
YOU'RE LOOKING FOR RIGHT NOW.
YEAH, THAT WOULD BE,
LIKE A GRAND SLAM
AND THAT'S WHAT
WE'RE LOOKIN' FOR.
**
IN YOUR HEART OF HEARTS, WHAT
DO YOU THINK IS GONNA HAPPEN?
WHAT DO YOU THINK IS NEXT?
WHAT I THINK IS NEXT IS,
NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS --
AND I HAVE TO SAY THIS --
NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS,
FOR THE FIRST TIME,
THROUGH ALL OF THIS,
I HAVE THE RIGHT REPRESENTATION.
I HAVE PEOPLE WHO CARE ABOUT ME
AND WHO HAVE FOUGHT
VERY HARD FOR ME.
BUT IF ANYTHING
GOES WRONG WITH THIS,
I CAN'T COMPLAIN NOW
BECAUSE I DID HAVE DON KNIGHT,
I HAD ALL THESE
WONDERFUL PEOPLE,
AND THEY'VE WORKED TIRELESSLY TO
PROVE MY INNOCENCE TO THE WORLD.
IF I HAD TO DIE, I WANTED THE
WORLD TO KNOW I WAS INNOCENT,
AND I WANT TO CONTINUE
TO SHOW PEOPLE THAT I AM.
I DON'T BELIEVE THAT.
I DON'T BELIEVE
THAT HE'S INNOCENT.
WHEN YOU'RE DOING
INVESTIGATIONS,
YOU'RE EITHER GONNA PROVE
A GUY INNOCENT
OR YOU'RE GONNA
PROVE HIM GUILTY.
ONCE WE GET OUR INFORMATION DOWN
AND ONCE WE FILE THE CHARGE,
WELL, WE'RE PRETTY MUCH DONE.
AND I TOLD HIM THAT HE HAD
SEEN THE LAST FREE AIR
THAT HE'LL EVER BREATHE
WHEN WE LOCKED HIM UP,
AND IT WAS TRUE.
IF THAT'S WHAT HE THINKS
IS A GOOD INVESTIGATION,
I'D SAY WHATEVER MAKES HIM
SLEEP WELL AT NIGHT, I GUESS.
I MEAN, HE DID THIS.
HE DID THIS.
HE LEFT ALL OF THE STUFF
THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT UNDONE.
I'VE DONE MY JOB.
WHETHER HE GETS EXECUTED
OR NOT IS ON THEM.
ONCE IT GETS TO THAT POINT,
THAT'S NOT MY PROBLEM.
I'VE DONE WHAT I WAS
SUPPOSED TO DO.
NOW, IF THEY DO IT,
THEN THAT'S ON THEM.
SO, I SLEEP WELL AT NIGHTS.
**
**
YOUR INTERROGATION TAPE.
I MEAN, WHAT WAS IT LIKE TO BE
BROUGHT INTO THAT ROOM
AND JUST BE CONFRONTED
WITH SOMETHING LIKE THAT?
HE THINKS THAT'S GONNA WORK,
THAT HE'S NOT INVOLVED,
JUST BECAUSE HE DIDN'T
ACTUALLY DO THE KILLIN'.
BUT WHEN YOU PLAN
SOMETHING LIKE THIS,
YOU'RE MORE INVOLVED
THAN THE ACTUAL KILLER.
THE STUFF HE'S SAYIN'
IS JUST --
THAT GUY IS SUCH A LIAR.
JUST --
HE WOULDN'T KNOW THE TRUTH
IF IT HIT HIM
RIGHT BETWEEN THE EYES.
**
IN OKLAHOMA,
DEATH ROW INMATE RICHARD GLOSSIP
IS LIVING ON BORROWED TIME.
ALREADY, HE'S BEEN
ON THE BRINK OF EXECUTION
ON THREE SEPARATE OCCASIONS.
NOW, ONCE AGAIN, THE STATE IS
PREPARING TO PUT HIM TO DEATH,
ON CHARGES OF HIRING ANOTHER MAN
TO COMMIT MURDER.
BUT FAR TOO MANY TROUBLING
QUESTIONS SWIRL AROUND HIS CASE.
I'M NOT IN THIS THING, MAN!
I'M REALLY NOT.
I'M JOE BERLINGER.
AS A DOCUMENTARY FILMMAKER,
I'VE SPENT MY CAREER SHINING
A LIGHT ON STORIES OF INJUSTICE.
WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THAT?
THEY'RE READY TO KILL THIS GUY.
I THINK IT'S
A REAL BAD DEAL.
AS GLOSSIP'S LAWYERS SEARCH
FOR NEW EVIDENCE...
EVERYTHING PRETTY MUCH
HAPPENED RIGHT HERE.
...TIME IS RUNNING OUT.
DID THE SYSTEM GET IT WRONG
WITH RICHARD GLOSSIP?
IT'S AN INNOCENT MAN
WHO'S GONNA EXECUTED
IF WE DON'T DO
SOMETHING ABOUT IT NOW.
WE ARE THE LAST, BEST
CHANCE THAT RICH HAS,
AND WE HAVE TO SUCCEED
BECAUSE, IF WE FAIL,
HE DIES.
WHY IS OKLAHOMA SO HELLBENT
ON KILLING RICHARD GLOSSIP?
IN SEPTEMBER OF 2015,
RICHARD GLOSSIP RECEIVED
HIS THIRD STAY OF EXECUTION.
NOW, HE IS POTENTIALLY
JUST MONTHS AWAY
FROM YET ANOTHER EXECUTION DATE.
HIS ONLY REAL HOPE
OF GETTING BACK INTO COURT
IS FOR HIS LAWYERS TO FIND
HARD PROOF OF HIS INNOCENCE.
YOU KNOW, WHENEVER I'M DOING
AN INVESTIGATION,
REALLY, ONE OF THE MOST
IMPORTANT THINGS FOR ME TO DO
IS TO GO AND SEE
WHERE IT HAPPENED.
BUT PROVING A MAN'S INNOCENCE
20 YEARS AFTER THE FACT
IS A NEARLY IMPOSSIBLE MISSION,
ESPECIALLY IN A CASE THAT LACKS
SIGNIFICANT FORENSIC EVIDENCE,
SO GLOSSIP'S LEGAL TEAM
HAS TRAVELED TO OKLAHOMA
TO SEE WHAT EVIDENCE
THEY CAN UNCOVER.
HOW ARE YOU?
THANK YOU FOR
LETTING US GO AHEAD
AND TAKE A LOOK AT THIS.
WE'RE LOOKIN' TO SEE
ROOM 102, IF WE CAN.
- OKAY.
**
GOSH, THIS IS NOT
A VERY BIG SPACE
FOR WHAT HAPPENED.
IT ISN'T, IS IT?
IT'S UNSETTLING THAT,
I MEAN,
THIS IS EXACT SPOT
A MAN WAS KILLED.
THAT'S HORRIBLE.
IN A HORRIBLE WAY.
- IT'S SAD.
- YES, IT IS.
WE REALLY CAN'T LOSE
PERSPECTIVE ON THAT.
THE THING THAT'S EVEN SADDER
THAN THAT IS TRYING TO THINK OF
THE STATE KILLING ANOTHER
INNOCENT MAN BECAUSE OF IT.
THE JOB OF A POLICE
INVESTIGATOR,
THE JOB OF A DETECTIVE,
IS TO FIND OUT WHAT HAPPENED.
SO, IN ORDER TO BE EFFECTIVE,
YOU HAVE TO ACTUALLY
DO INVESTIGATION.
YOU HAVE TO ACTUALLY GO
DO THE WORK.
BUT THAT'S NOT
WHAT HAPPENED HERE.
THERE ARE A LOT OF THINGS,
EVEN IN THE REPORTS,
THAT HAPPENED BACK THEN
THAT DIDN'T MATCH UP.
THE GLOSSIP CASE WAS REALLY,
REALLY BIZARRE TO ME
BECAUSE, AS A REPORTER,
YOU GET WHAT THE POLICE SAY,
BUT THEN YOU START
HAVIN' SOME QUESTIONS.
YOU'RE LOOKIN' FOR DETAILS
AND AFFIDAVITS
AND ARREST WARRANTS.
DETAILS THAT THE POLICE
PROVIDE, THAT SAY,
"THIS GUY DID IT.
HERE'S THE EVIDENCE,"
AND THAT WASN'T HERE.
AND THEN YOU FIND OUT
HOW MANIPULATIVE
THAT THE DETECTIVES WERE.
MY REACTION TO THOSE PEOPLE
THAT ARE DEFENDING
RICHARD GLOSSIP
AS BEING INNOCENT,
THEY DIDN'T SEE
WHAT HE CAUSED TO HAPPEN
TO THE VICTIM,
BARRY VAN TREESE.
IF THEY ONLY KNEW THE BRUTALITY
THAT WAS INVOLVED
IN THIS HOMICIDE,
IF THEY ONLY UNDERSTOOD
ALL THE FACTORS
THAT WERE INVOLVED,
I WONDER IF THEY WOULD
STILL STAND UP FOR HIM.
I WAS A DETECTIVE
IN THE OKLAHOMA CITY POLICE
DEPARTMENT'S HOMICIDE UNIT,
SO I WAS AN INSPECTOR
AND MY PARTNER ALSO,
BILL COOK, WAS AN INSPECTOR.
WE WORKED TOGETHER
FOR QUITE SOME TIME
AND I THINK WE RESOLVED
SOMEWHERE CLOSE
TO 95% OF OUR CASELOAD.
OUR LIEUTENANT HAD
CALLED ME AND ADVISED
THAT WE HAD A CRIME SCENE
AT THE BEST BUDGET INN,
THAT WAS LOCATED
OUT ON COUNCIL ROAD.
****
MR. VAN TREESE WAS LAYING
NEXT TO THE BED.
YOU COULD SEE WHERE THE SHADES
HAD BEEN RUFFLED A LITTLE BIT
AND THE GLASS HAD BEEN
BROKEN OUT IN THE WINDOW
AND IT WAS JUST TYPICAL
OF A SCUFFLE IN THERE.
BEMO INTERVIEWED A FEW MOTEL
EMPLOYEES AND GUESTS
AT THE SCENE.
JUSTIN SNEED'S NAME CAME UP,
BUT HE WAS NOWHERE TO BE FOUND.
SO BEMO TURNED HIS ATTENTION
TO RICHARD GLOSSIP.
HE'S THE MANAGER OF THE MOTEL
AND HE'S THE ONE
THAT'S SUPPOSED TO KNOW
WHAT'S GOIN' ON OUT THERE
AND HE KNOWS BARRY VAN TREESE.
THIS IS THE PERSON
THAT YOU JUST WANNA TALK TO
AND SEE WHAT HE'S GOT TO SAY.
AT THE SCENE,
BEMO GREW INCREASINGLY
SUSPICIOUS OF GLOSSIP.
GLOSSIP HAD MADE SEVERAL
INCONSISTENT STATEMENTS
TO BRING SUSPICION ON HIMSELF.
HE'D GET DATES WRONG.
HE APPEARED TO BE NERVOUS
AND, AS WE TALKED TO HIM,
I JUST FELT LIKE HE KNEW A LOT
MORE THAN WHAT HE WAS SAYING
BECAUSE OF THE WAY
HE WAS ACTING.
ACCORDING TO POLICE REPORTS,
GLOSSIP TOLD MOTEL
SECURITY MAN CLIFF EVERHART
AND PATROL OFFICER TIM BROWN
DIFFERENT STORIES
ABOUT WHEN HE HAD
LAST SEEN BARRY.
SO THE POLICE SAY YOU GAVE
CONFLICTING STATEMENTS.
YOU TOLD TIM BROWN YOU SAW BARRY
WALKING THROUGH THE PARKING LOT
AT 7:00 THAT MORNING.
YOU TOLD CLIFF EVERHART THAT YOU
SAW BARRY RETURN TO THE HOTEL.
I MEAN --
- NO, EVERYBODY ASKED ME
WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME
I SEEN BARRY.
WHEN THEY ASKED ME
WHEN I'D SEEN BARRY,
7:30 THE NIGHT BEFORE.
THAT'S EXACTLY
WHAT I TOLD THEM.
THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT I TOLD
BEMO AND TIM BROWN.
THEY DECIDED I WAS MAKING
CONFLICTING STATEMENTS.
I NEVER SAID I SEEN HIM
THAT MORNING,
AND I'VE ALWAYS SAID,
FROM DAY ONE,
THAT IT WAS 7:30
THE NIGHT BEFORE.
YOU SEE THEM COMING AFTER
RICHARD RIGHT AWAY, HARD,
BUT YOU CAN KIND OF SEE
A THREAD,
A TRAIN OF THOUGHT
THAT THEY'RE ALREADY HAVING.
AND THEN AS IT PROGRESSES,
THAT TRAIN OF THOUGHT
BECOMES THE NARRATIVE.
IN OTHER WORDS, YOU KIND OF GET
A TUNNEL VISION GOING ON.
THE THING ABOUT IT IS, IS THAT
YOU DON'T WANT TO GIVE HIM
A CHANCE TO CONCOCT A STORY.
YOU WANT TO KNOW WHAT HIS STORY
IS RIGHT OFF THE BAT,
AND THAT'S WHY
WE HAVE HIM DOWN THERE.
THEY KEEP SAYING,
"WE'RE GONNA FIND JUSTIN."
AND THEY KEEP ASKING HIM,
"DO YOU KNOW WHERE HE IS?"
HE SAYS,
"NO, BUT I WISH I DID.
HE'S YOUR GUY."
BUT IT SEEMS LIKE THEY JUST
REALLY COULD NOT STOP
LOOKING AT GLOSSIP.
LIKE I SAID, HE'S VERY
ARROGANT AND VERY COCKY.
HE WAS ONE OF THOSE KIND OF GUYS
THAT REALLY IRRITATES YOU,
YOU KNOW, WITH HIS COMEBACKS
AND WITH WHAT HE WAS SAYIN',
AND THAT'S WHY I WOULD GET
IN FACE SOMETIMES,
"WELL, I'LL TELL YOU
WHAT, BUDDY,"
OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT,
YOU KNOW,
'CAUSE HE IRRITATED ME
A LITTLE BIT.
IT'S ALMOST AS IF
THEY'RE NOT REALLY EVEN
LISTENING TO WHAT
HE'S SAYING NECESSARILY...
WHICH SUGGESTS TO ME
A LEVEL OF TUNNEL VISION
AND FOCUS ON RICHARD GLOSSIP
THAT IT WOULD BE
RELATIVELY IMPOSSIBLE
FOR RICHARD TO OVERCOME.
I WANT TO GET REAL SPECIFIC
ON THE DAY AND WHAT HAPPENED.
JUSTIN SAYS, YOU KNOW,
YOU CAME INTO HIS ROOM,
TOLD HIM TO GO KILL BARRY
WITH A BASEBALL BAT.
WELL, THAT'S NOT TRUE.
JUSTIN KNOWS
THAT'S NOT TRUE.
SO WHAT WERE YOU ACTUALLY
DOING DURING THIS TIME PERIOD?
WERE YOU ASLEEP,
OR WHAT WAS GOING ON?
D'ANNA AND I WENT
TO BED AROUND MIDNIGHT.
AND, THE NEXT THING I KNOW,
SHE WOKE ME UP
AND TOLD ME SOMEBODY
WAS BEATING ON THE DOOR,
SO I GOT UP TO SEE WHO IT WAS
AND IT WAS JUSTIN.
AND D'ANNA EVEN TOLD DETECTIVES
THIS AND EVEN TESTIFIED TO THAT,
AND THEY JUST WASN'T
GONNA LISTEN.
D'ANNA, IN HER STATEMENT,
BASICALLY ALIBIED FOR RICH,
WHERE HE WAS,
WHEN HE WAS WITH HER,
AND YET THE POLICE CHOSE
TO IGNORE THAT.
WHEN WE FIRST COME
ACROSS D'ANNA WOOD,
WE ASKED GLOSSIP WHO SHE WAS
AND HE SAID THAT SHE WAS
HIS GIRLFRIEND
THAT SHE LIVED WITH HIM
AND SHE HELPED HIM
RUN THE MOTEL.
I DO BELIEVE GLOSSIP
KEPT HER OUT OF THIS.
I WAS CONVINCED, YOU KNOW,
HE WASN'T TELLING US THE TRUTH.
JUST COULDN'T PROVE IT,
YOU KNOW.
AT THAT MOMENT, ANYWAY.
AND SO, BY AND LARGE,
ONCE WE FINISHED THIS INTERVIEW,
WE LET HIM GO AND THOUGHT,
"WELL, THERE'LL BE ANOTHER DAY."
**
WHEN I GOT BACK THAT NIGHT
FROM MY INTERVIEW,
THERE WAS A LADY
SITTING AT THE DESK
AND I DON'T KNOW
IF SHE WAS A FRIEND
OR A FAMILY MEMBER
OF THE VAN TREESES,
AND SHE PULLS ME ASIDE
AND SHE SAYS,
"ARE YOU SUPPOSED
TO TALK TO THEM AGAIN?"
AND I SAID, "YES," AND SHE GOES,
"DON'T TALK TO THEM
WITHOUT AN ATTORNEY.
YOU DON'T KNOW HOW THINGS
CAN GET TWISTED,"
IS WHAT SHE TOLD ME.
AND WHEN SHE SAID THAT,
THAT'S WHEN I STARTED THINKIN',
"MAYBE I SHOULD TALK
TO AN ATTORNEY."
WE HAD HEARD THAT RICHARD WAS
TRYING TO GET RID OF HIS STUFF
SO HE COULD LEAVE TOWN,
SO WE ASKED A COUPLE OF GUYS
FROM SPECIAL PROJECTS
TO WATCH HIM.
BUT WHILE THE COPS BELIEVED
GLOSSIP WAS SELLING
HIS POSSESSIONS
IN ORDER TO FLEE,
HE TELLS A DIFFERENT STORY.
YES, I STARTED
SELLING EVERYTHING,
BUT THE ONLY REASON I DID THAT
WAS TO GET THAT ATTORNEY,
DAVID McKENZIE.
I WAS THE FIRST LAWYER
THAT RICHARD GLOSSIP SPOKE WITH.
I TELL EVERYBODY
THAT COMES UNDER MY CHARGE
THAT THEY SHOULD NOT TALK
TO THE POLICE.
AND SO I CALLED THE POLICE
AND SAID,
"HE'S NOT GOING TO COOPERATE
WITH YOU ANY FURTHER."
HE WALKED OUT OF MY OFFICE,
GOT IN THE ELEVATOR,
WENT DOWNSTAIRS.
WHEN HE OPENED THE FRONT DOOR,
GUNS WERE DRAWN
AND HE WAS PLACED UNDER ARREST.
FOR THE SECOND TIME,
GLOSSIP AGREES TO TALK TO THE
POLICE WITHOUT LEGAL COUNSEL.
OKAY, RICHARD.
GLOSSIP TELLS BEMO
HIS VERSION OF EVENTS AGAIN.
HOWEVER, GLOSSIP'S ACCOUNT
OF WHAT TOOK PLACE THAT NIGHT
HAS ONE, SIGNIFICANT CHANGE.
TELL ME AGAIN WHAT JUSTIN SAID.
WITH A SMILE ON HIS FACE,
HE SAID,
"I KILLED BARRY."
AND HE ALWAYS MADE JOKES
OF ONE TYPE OR ANOTHER,
SO, WHEN I LOOKED AT HIM,
THE EXPRESSION ON HIS FACE
AND STUFF,
I JUST DIDN'T BELIEVE HIM.
- SO YOU THOUGHT HE WAS JOKING.
- EXACTLY, LIKE HE ALWAYS DID.
BUT ONCE YOU'RE
IN THE INTERROGATION ROOM,
IT WAS A MISTAKE NOT TO TALK
ABOUT WHAT JUSTIN HAD SAID.
SO TAKE ME THROUGH YOUR THINKING
ABOUT WHY YOU DECIDED
TO WITHHOLD THAT INFORMATION,
'CAUSE THAT'S A BIG ONE,
YOU KNOW?
THAT'S A BIG --
- NO, IT REALLY IS.
I WAS GONNA TELL THEM,
UNTIL DETECTIVE BEMO STARTED
ACCUSIN' ME OF THINGS, BUT,
WHEN I GOT TO THAT POINT,
I'M SITTING THERE, GOING,
"SOMETHING'S REALLY WRONG HERE,"
AND IT MADE ME NERVOUS
TO SAY ANYTHING,
AT THAT POINT, TO THEM.
- RIGHT.
I JUST STARTED
NOT TRUSTING THEM.
- YEAH.
- IT'S PROBABLY NOT
THE SMARTEST DECISION I MADE.
I'M NOT SAYING I'M NOT.
AND I'VE SAID IT BEFORE
AND I'LL SAY IT AGAIN,
"IF STUPID IS A CRIME,
THEN I'M GUILTY."
YEAH, THAT'S BAD. BUT,
I DON'T THINK THAT MAKES HIM
A CAPITAL-MURDER DEFENDANT.
I THINK THAT MIGHT MAKE HIM
AN ACCESSORY AFTER THE FACT.
THAT'S WHAT THEY CAN PROVE.
THAT'S WHAT HE'S ADMITTED TO.
THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO
FORENSIC EVIDENCE, WHATSOEVER,
THAT WOULD PUT RICHARD GLOSSIP
INSIDE ROOM 102
AT ANY POINT DURING THIS PERIOD.
NOT ANY SIGN OF HIM.
BUT THERE'S DNA FROM
JUSTIN SNEED ALL OVER THE ROOM.
TO OFFICIALLY CHARGE GLOSSIP,
THE POLICE WOULD NEED
MORE EVIDENCE.
THEY WOULD NEED
TO FIND JUSTIN SNEED.
PROBABLE CAUSE WAS ENOUGH
THAT WE COULD HOLD GLOSSIP
FOR THAT MURDER,
AND, OF COURSE,
YOU HAVE A FEW DAYS
BEFORE YOU FILE YOUR CHARGES.
FORTUNATELY, WE WERE ABLE
TO LOCATE JUSTIN SNEED
AND HE WAS ABLE TO TELL US
THE STORY AS IT HAPPENED
AND THAT'S WHAT HE DID.
**
WITH NO FORENSIC EVIDENCE
THAT SHOWS GLOSSIP WAS PRESENT
INSIDE ROOM 102
ON THE NIGHT OF THE MURDER,
POLICE WOULD RELY HEAVILY
ON JUSTIN SNEED'S TESTIMONY
TO BUILD THEIR CASE
AGAINST GLOSSIP.
IT'S ONE MAN'S WORD
AGAINST ANOTHER,
AND THE WHOLE CASE PIVOTS
ON WHETHER OR NOT SNEED'S STORY
CAN BE BELIEVED.
MY NAME IS JUSTIN SNEED
AND WE'RE AT JOSEPH HARP
CORRECTIONAL CENTER IN OKLAHOMA.
AND HOW LONG YOU BEEN HERE?
I'VE BEEN HERE
SINCE NOVEMBER OF 1999.
JUSTIN SNEED CAME
TO OKLAHOMA CITY FROM TEXAS
IN JULY OF 1996,
LEAVING TWO YOUNG KIDS BEHIND.
WITHIN WEEKS,
HE PICKED UP WORK
AS A MAINTENANCE MAN
AT THE BEST BUDGET INN.
I'D BEEN AT THE BEST BUDGET INN
SINCE LATE JULY,
AND THIS WAS THE BEGINNING
OF OCTOBER.
THEN, THAT'S WHEN MR. GLOSSIP
WAS ASKIN' ME
OR APPROACHIN' ME ABOUT KILLING
MR. VAN TREESE FOR MONEY,
AND IT WAS IN JANUARY
WHEN THE MURDER HAPPENED.
FOR ABOUT 3 MONTHS,
HE WAS ASKING YOU TO KILL?
YEAH. I KEPT TELLING HIM NO,
I DIDN'T WANT TO DO IT.
AND WHAT WAS THE PLAN,
YOU KNOW,
LIKE DID HE GIVE YOU
A PLAN?
HE KNEW MS. VAN TREESE
PRETTY GOOD
AND HE THOUGHT THAT,
WITH MR. VAN TREESE
OUT OF THE PICTURE,
THAT HE COULD MANIPULATE HER.
THEY HAD MULTIPLE MOTELS
AND THAT HE WOULD SET ME UP
IN RUNNIN' ONE OF THEM
AND STUFF LIKE THAT.
THAT NIGHT, BEFORE I'D CRASHED
OUT AND WENT TO SLEEP,
I CAN'T REALLY REMEMBER
IF I HAD SMOKED SOME MARIJUANA.
IT'S VERY POSSIBLE
THAT I COULD'VE
BECAUSE I WAS STONED MOST OF THE
TIME I WAS AT THAT MOTEL.
I WAS ASLEEP IN MY ROOM
WHEN MR. GLOSSIP CAME
TO MY BEDROOM.
OF COURSE, HE HAD MASTER KEYS,
SO ALL I DO IS REMEMBER
WAKING UP TO HIM BEING,
YOU KNOW, IN MY FACE.
HE JUST BECAME REAL ADAMANT
ABOUT HOW MR. VAN TREESE
HAD JUST SHOWED UP
AND, UM,
THAT HE WAS WILLIN'
TO UP THE MONEY TO $7,500,
IF I WOULD GO KILL HIM THEN.
AND I WAS KIND OF BEIN'
ADAMANT AGAINST IT,
JUST KIND OF SHAKIN' MY HEAD.
YOU KNOW, HE'S STANDIN' THERE,
POKIN' HIS FINGER AT ME
AND TRYIN' TO TELL ME
TO JUST GO DO IT
AND BEIN' REAL AGGRESSIVE
ABOUT IT.
I CAN'T FIGURE OUT EXACTLY
AT WHAT POINT I DECIDED
TO JUST GRAB THE BAT
AND GO OVER THERE.
I JUST REMEMBER GOING OVER THERE
AND OPENING THE DOOR.
WOULD YOU MIND TELLING ME
WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED,
YOU KNOW,
THE MURDER ITSELF?
I- I DON'T REALLY WANNA
SPEAK ON THAT,
AS FAR AS, UM,
WHAT I ACTUALLY DID.
I'M STILL TRYING TO SOAK
A LOT OF THAT IN AND I...
AND I REALLY ONLY FEEL
IN MY HEART
THAT I WOULD REALLY
ONLY WANT TO SPEAK ON THAT
IF THE WIDOW CAME TO ME
AND TOLD ME
THAT SHE WANTED TO KNOW.
AND THEN I WOULDN'T
HOLD NOTHIN' BACK FROM HER.
AT THE END OF THE DAY,
WHAT DO YOU WANT PEOPLE
TO KNOW ABOUT THIS?
I JUST WANT 'EM TO KNOW THAT
I'M STANDIN' ON THE TRUTH
FOR A PURPOSE.
IT'S THE ONLY WAY
THAT I CAN STAND RIGHT NOW,
IS ON THE TRUTH.
JUSTIN SNEED STANDS BY WHAT
HE CLAIMS TO BE THE TRUTH.
BUT HOW DOES THE STORY
HE TELLS TODAY
STAND UP
TO HIS INITIAL CONFESSION?
THE OKLAHOMA CITY
POLICE DEPARTMENT,
THEY WERE VERY PROUD OF THEIR
HIGH ARREST AND CONVICTION RATE.
WHATEVER IT TOOK TO MAKE
AN ARREST, THEY WOULD DO.
IN 1982, WHEN I CAME TO WORK
IN THE PUBLIC DEFENDER'S OFFICE,
BOB MACY WAS
THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY.
HE HAD MORE DEATH-PENALTY
CONVICTIONS
THAN ALMOST ANY OTHER
PROSECUTOR IN THE COUNTRY.
HE WAS VERY PROUD OF THAT FACT.
SO IT LENT ITSELF
TO A ENVIRONMENT,
I BELIEVE, WHERE DREAM
CONFESSIONS WERE IN VOGUE
AND THAT'S I THINK
WHAT HAPPENED TO SNEED.
THEY ALREADY BELIEVE
THAT RICHARD BASICALLY
COMPELLED JUSTIN SNEED
TO KILL BARRY VAN TREESE.
AND SO WHEN THEY GET
SNEED IN THE ROOM,
THEY LEAD HIM EXACTLY DOWN THE
PATH OF WHERE THEY WANT TO GO.
I WANTED HIM TO UNDERSTAND
THAT WE KNEW OTHER PEOPLE
WERE INVOLVED IN THIS,
AND UNLESS HE WAS WILLING
TO LET US KNOW WHO THEY WERE,
HE WAS GONNA HAVE TO
TAKE THE WHOLE RAP.
AND IT WASN'T ANY TASK
TO BREAK JUSTIN DOWN
BECAUSE HE DIDN'T HAVE A VERY
STRONG WILL TO BEGIN WITH.
WELL...
BEFORE SNEED EVEN CONFESSES
TO THE MURDER,
DETECTIVE BEMO OFFERS UP
RICHARD GLOSSIP BY NAME.
WELL --
HE DOESN'T EVEN
GET A STORY FROM SNEED,
ESSENTIALLY, BEFORE HE SAYS,
"WE KNOW YOU DIDN'T DO
THIS ALONE," AND THEN,
"DID YOU KNOW THAT
RICH HAS BEEN ARRESTED, TOO?"
WHICH, OF COURSE, SNEED DID
NOT KNOW AT THAT TIME.
JUSTIN'S FIRST STATEMENT
THAT HE MADE TO POLICE
NEVER INCLUDED ME IN ANYTHING.
I WAS NEVER INCLUDED
UNTIL BEMO AND THEM
PUT THAT THOUGHT IN HIS MIND.
SNEED COMES UP
WITH A DREAM CONFESSION.
BUT THOSE FACTS
WERE INTERJECTED EARLY ON
IN THE INTERROGATION PROCESS.
HE TOLD US THAT RICHARD
CAME AND TOLD HIM
THAT BARRY WAS IN ROOM 102
AND THAT HE COULD GO IN THERE
AND STEAL HIS CAR KEYS AND --
AND THEY COULD GET THE MONEY.
I DECIDED TO TRUST HIM
BECAUSE I THOUGHT
THAT THEY WERE GOING TO
KEEP THEIR WORD AND THEY
WERE GOING TO HELP ME AND --
AND, BY HELPING ME,
I REALLY THOUGHT IN MY OWN MIND
THAT THEY WERE GONNA
ALLOW ME TO GO HOME.
FROM WHAT WE CAN TELL, WITH
THE HELP OF POLICE OFFICERS,
JUSTIN SNEED SIMPLY MADE UP
A STORY TO HELP HIMSELF.
DON KNIGHT BELIEVES
THE POLICE INVESTIGATION
IN GLOSSIP'S CASE LEAVES
MANY QUESTIONS UNANSWERED.
CERTAINLY, BEMO IS
A SUCCESSFUL HOMICIDE DETECTIVE,
BUT IN RECENT YEARS, SOME
OF HIS CASES HAVE BEEN REVIEWED,
AND CONVICTIONS OVERTURNED.
I'M NOT AT ALL WORRIED.
I MEAN, THEY CAN GO THROUGH
ANY REVIEWS THEY WANT
AND, IF THEY DO THAT,
THAT'S THEIR DECISIONS.
I'VE NEVER DONE ANYTHING
THAT I FELT WAS WRONG,
AND I'VE NEVER PUT ANYBODY IN
JAIL THAT DIDN'T BELONG THERE.
IF THEY WOULD'VE
DONE THEIR JOB,
I WOULDN'T HAVE SPENT
A DAY IN JAIL.
THEY JUST...
WANTED TO CLEAR THIS THING UP
AS QUICK AS POSSIBLE,
AND IT WAS EASIER TO GET ME
'CAUSE I WAS RIGHT
IN FRONT OF HIM.
AND THAT'S THE SAD THING
ABOUT THE JUSTICE SYSTEM:
YOU DON'T NEED EVIDENCE.
YOU CAN JUST COME IN
WITH A STORY, CONVINCE THEM,
AND YOU GOT 'EM.
**
I WANNA START OUR MEETING
WHERE I THINK EVERYTHING
REALLY BEGINS IN THIS CASE,
WHICH IS THE INVESTIGATION.
AND I THINK WHAT WE DUG INTO
HERE PRETTY QUICKLY WAS THE FACT
THAT THERE JUST WASN'T
A WHOLE LOT THAT WAS DONE.
WITH A POSSIBLE EXECUTION DATE
FOR RICHARD GLOSSIP
JUST MONTHS AWAY,
DON KNIGHT HAS RETAINED
QUINN O'BRIEN,
A PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR
WHO SPECIALIZES
IN DEATH-PENALTY CASES.
THE ORIGINAL INVESTIGATION LEFT
TOO MANY QUESTIONS
UNANSWERED FOR ME.
WHY ARE WE BELIEVING
JUSTIN SNEED?
WHY DID THE POLICE
NOT CANVASS THE HOTEL?
EITHER THERE ARE
POLICE DOCUMENTS MISSING,
THAT WE DON'T HAVE.
THEY MIGHT NEVER HAVE BEEN
MADE IN THE FIRST PLACE,
AND ONE OF THE ONLY WAYS
WE'RE GOING TO FIND OUT
IF POLICE EVER TALKED
TO THESE PEOPLE
IS TO GO TALK TO GUESTS OF THE
BEST BUDGET INN OURSELVES.
SO THIS IS THE SHEET OF PAPER
THAT MARKS DOWN
WHO'S STAYING IN WHAT ROOM
THE WEEK OF JANUARY 1st
THROUGH THE 7th.
THEY MIGHT BE ABLE TO TELL US
JUST, YOU KNOW, WHAT WAS THERE.
WHAT DID THEY SEE?
THIS IS WHAT WE HAVE TO DO
WITH ALL OF HIS
LEGAL OPTIONS EXHAUSTED.
WE DON'T HAVE ANY CHOICES
AT THIS POINT
EXCEPT FOR TO KNOCK ON EVERY
SINGLE DOOR WE CAN KNOCK ON
AND HOPE THAT WE FIND SOMETHING.
SO WHAT HAPPENED?
A WOMAN ANSWERED THE DOOR
AND SHE SAID THAT
SHE IS NOT THE PERSON
THAT WE WERE LOOKING FOR.
**
DO YOU REMEMBER ANYBODY AT ALL,
ANYBODY IN ANY ROOMS
THAT YOU CAN RECALL AT ALL?
- NO, SIR.
- OKAY.
- A WOMAN ANSWERED AND SHE WAS --
- SHE SHUT THE DOOR
BEFORE WE COULD ASK.
- YEAH, SHE WAS REALLY
NOT INTERESTED
IN TALKING TO US.
**
NO LUCK THERE.
NOBODY WAS HOME HERE.
YEAH, NO ONE HOME.
SO WHERE ARE WE HEADED NOW?
WELL, WE ARE LOOKING
FOR SOMEBODY
THAT JUSTIN SNEED HAS IDENTIFIED
AS SOMEBODY THAT HE KNEW
BACK IN THE DAY,
ROGER LEE RAMSEY,
WHO WAS SOMEBODY WHO WAS
IN JAIL WITH SNEED
IMMEDIATELY AFTER HIS ARREST.
AND WE CAN'T REALLY SAY
AT THIS POINT IN TIME
THAT IT'S GOING TO DRAW
SOME DIRECT LINE TO INNOCENCE,
BUT IT'S THE TOUGH SPADEWORK
THAT WE'RE DOING.
YOU KEEP DIGGIN'.
WHEN WE LOOK BACK AT IT,
THERE WERE PLENTY OF LEADS
THAT COULD'VE BEEN PURSUED.
BUT BEMO AND COOK
THOUGHT THEY HAD THEIR MAN
AND THERE WAS NOT GONNA BE
ANY FURTHER INVESTIGATION,
WHATSOEVER.
THEY HEARD WHAT THEY WANTED
TO HEAR FROM SNEED,
THEY GO TO GET GLOSSIP,
AND THEN HE'S ON DEATH ROW
BECAUSE OF THAT.
OF COURSE, AFTER DOIN'
THE INTERVIEWS WITH GLOSSIP
AND WITH JUSTIN SNEED,
I FELT THE MOTIVE
IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE
WAS AS SIMPLE AS A ROBBERY
AND THE FACT THAT
RICHARD GLOSSIP WANTED
TO TAKE OVER THE MOTEL
AS HIS OWN.
BEMO AND COOK BUILT A CASE
OF MURDER-FOR-HIRE,
A CAPITAL OFFENSE IN OKLAHOMA,
AGAINST GLOSSIP.
YOU COULD TALK TO JUSTIN
AND YOU JUST KNEW THIS KID
WAS NOT SMART ENOUGH
TO PLAN SOMETHING LIKE THIS.
SO, YOU KNOW, IT WASN'T THAT WE
COERCED HIM INTO SAYING GLOSSIP.
GLOSSIP WAS THE MASTERMIND
BEHIND IT.
ACCORDING TO THE DETECTIVES,
GLOSSIP MANIPULATED SNEED
INTO COMMITTING THIS MURDER.
IT'S HARD FOR YOU
AND I TO REALIZE
THAT GLOSSIP HAD THAT KIND
OF INFLUENCE OVER SNEED,
BUT THAT'S BECAUSE
WE'RE DIFFERENT TYPES OF PEOPLE.
I ACTUALLY FELT SORRY FOR HIM.
THAT WAS NOT NECESSARILY
ONE OF THE THINGS
THAT I DID VERY OFTEN
TOWARD SUSPECTS AND MURDERERS.
AS I UNDERSTAND IT,
RICHARD GLOSSIP HAD
QUITE A HOLD OVER YOU.
I DON'T KNOW. I GUESS
I WAS THAT VULNERABLE AND MEEK
AND HE WAS JUST
A CONSTANT VOICE, UM, AND --
GUIDANCE I HAD,
I GUESS YOU CAN SAY.
IT WASN'T THE FRIENDSHIP
THAT PEOPLE LIKE THE D.A.
TRIED TO MAKE IT SOUND OUT
TO BE.
IT WASN'T THAT TYPE
OF FRIENDSHIP AT ALL.
YEAH.
YOU KNOW, THIS IDEA
THAT YOU HAD CONTROL
OVER HIM, THAT
YOU COULD INFLUENCE
SOMEBODY TO COMMIT MURDER,
I MEAN, TELL ME WHAT
YOU THINK OF THAT IDEA.
IT'S A CRAZY IDEA.
CRAZY IDEA.
D'ANNA EVEN TRIED
TO EXPLAIN IT TO 'EM, TOO.
WE HAD TROUBLE FINDING HIM
TO DO THINGS AROUND THE MOTEL.
WE HAD TROUBLE...
HE WOULD DISAPPEAR
FOR LIKE 2 DAYS AT A TIME
AND HE'D COME BACK.
SO I MEAN,
WHERE IS THERE CONTROL?
THE IDEA THAT JUSTIN IS JUST
SO HAPLESS AND USELESS,
THAT'S VERY, VERY, VERY, VERY
POSITIVE FOR JUSTIN, RIGHT?
THAT'S VERY SELF-SERVING,
FOR HIM, TO DO THAT,
BUT I DON'T KNOW
THAT I BELIEVE THAT.
MOST OF THE EVIDENCE AGAINST
GLOSSIP WAS CIRCUMSTANTIAL,
INCLUDING WHAT WOULD BECOME
CENTRAL TO THIS CASE:
THE MONEY GLOSSIP HAD
IN HIS POSSESSION
WHEN HE WAS ARRESTED.
IT WAS JUST UNDER $2,000,
ROUGHLY THE SAME AMOUNT
THAT POLICE RECOVERED
FROM SNEED.
BUT WHILE SNEED'S MONEY
WAS COVERED IN BLOOD,
GLOSSIP'S MONEY WAS CLEAN,
WITHOUT A DROP OF INCRIMINATING
BLOOD OR DNA.
ALL OF THE STUFF THAT THEY SAY
CORROBORATES
JUSTIN SNEED'S TESTIMONY
ABOUT RICHARD MASTERMINDING
THIS OPERATION IS REALLY WEAK.
AND I THINK THAT SHOULD BE
DISTURBING TO A LOT OF PEOPLE
'CAUSE YOU'RE NOT SUPPOSED
TO BE ALLOWED TO BE CONVICTED
ON THE WORD
OF AN ACCOMPLICE, ALONE.
THERE HAS TO BE SOMETHING
THAT CORROBORATES
WHAT THAT PERSON SAID
THAT IS MORE THAN
A MERE, TENUOUS CONNECTION
TO THE FACT THAT
A CRIME ACTUALLY HAPPENED.
AND YET, SNEED'S ORIGINAL
STATEMENT TO BEMO AND COOK,
ESPECIALLY HIS DESCRIPTION
ABOUT HOW THE CRIME WENT DOWN,
DOESN'T SEEM TO SUPPORT
THEIR THEORY OF MURDER-FOR-HIRE.
I MEAN, HE ENDED UP
KILLING BARRY.
I DON'T KNOW THAT HE
INTENDED TO, BUT HE DID.
HE BEAT HIM PRETTY GOOD, SO.
JUSTIN SAYS HE JUST MEANT
TO KNOCK BARRY OUT.
BEMO SAYS HE DOESN'T KNOW
IF JUSTIN INTENDED TO KILL HIM.
SO HOW CAN THIS MURDER
HAVE BEEN PLANNED?
THAT FITS WITH THE STORY
THAT THIS WAS A BURGLARY
THAT WAS BOTCHED,
AND THEN THE WHOLE
MURDER-FOR-HIRE STORY
GOES OUT THE WINDOW.
AND WHY WEREN'T THE POLICE
INTERESTED IN THAT?
THOSE ARE QUESTIONS
THAT I HAVE, YOU KNOW?
WHY WEREN'T THE POLICE
INTERESTED?
**
AFTER COUNTLESS HOURS
OF INVESTIGATION
AND NUMEROUS DEAD ENDS,
THE LEGAL TEAM'S HARD WORK SEEMS
TO HAVE FINALLY PAID OFF.
THEY'VE TRACKED DOWN
A POTENTIAL WITNESS,
ROGER LEE RAMSEY,
WHO WAS IN COUNTY JAIL
WITH JUSTIN SNEED.
GOOD TO SEE YA.
- YOU TOO.
- THANK YOU FOR TALKING TO US.
- YES, SIR.
DO YOU RECOGNIZE
THAT PICTURE?
YES, I DO.
THAT IS JUSTIN SNEED.
SO YOU GUYS WERE CELLMATES
RIGHT AFTER THIS MURDER.
- YES.
- AND WHAT WAS YOUR INTERACTION
WITH HIM LIKE? WHAT
WAS HE LIKE BACK THEN?
HE WAS LIKE A MAN
COMING OFF OF DRUGS.
HOW DO YOU MEAN?
HE ACTS JUST LIKE ALL
THE REST OF THE DOPE USERS,
JUST LIKE I DID.
- YEAH.
I DON'T THINK THERE IS
ANY SENSE OF THE FACT THAT
WHAT HE'D DONE
WAS REALLY WRONG.
I TAKE IT TO BE
THAT HE PROBABLY FELT
THAT HE WAS JUSTIFIED IN DOING
WHAT HE HAD TO DO
'CAUSE THEIR NUMBER-ONE
GOAL WAS MONEY FOR DRUGS.
AT WHAT POINT
DID HE ACTUALLY START
TALKING ABOUT THE CRIME?
ACTUALLY, IT WAS PROBABLY
WITHIN 2 OR 3 HOURS
OF HIM COMING IN.
AND WHAT WAS HIS STORY?
WHAT DID HE TELL YOU?
STORIES THAT HE WOULD TELL ME
WOULD CHANGE FROM TIME TO TIME.
THE ONLY THING THAT NEVER
DEVIATED FROM THE STORY
IS THE FACT THAT THERE WAS
MORE THAN HIM INVOLVED.
HIM AND WHOEVER ELSE
WERE GONNA ROB
A GUY THAT OWNED A MOTEL.
I DON'T THINK
THAT HE WENT THERE
WITH THE INTENTIONS
OF KILLIN' THAT MAN.
BUT HE DID NOT WANT
TO RELEASE THE MONEY,
SO THEY BEAT HIM TO DEATH.
THE VICTIM DID NOT WANT
TO RELEASE THE MONEY?
HE DID NOT WANT
TO GIVE UP HIS MONEY.
- SO THEY BEAT HIM.
- SO THEY BEAT HIM TO DEATH.
IT DOES BEG THE QUESTION
WHO THAT, YOU KNOW,
WHO THAT SECOND
PERSON WAS.
DID JUSTIN TELL YOU
THAT GLOSSIP --
JUSTIN NEVER MENTIONED
GLOSSIP'S NAME TO ME, EVER.
SNEED NEVER MENTIONED
GLOSSIP'S NAME.
NEVER MENTIONED
GLOSSIP'S NAME.
RIGHT.
AND WHAT WAS THE ROLE
OF THE OTHER PERSON?
THAT WAS, SUPPOSEDLY,
A GIRL'S JOB, WAS TO GET HIM
LURED OFF INTO THE ROOM.
SO WAS THAT...?
THAT WAS PART OF THEIR PLAN,
ACCORDING TO HIM.
LURE THE GUY INTO THE ROOM
WITH A GIRL?
YES.
ACCORDING TO THE POLICE,
JUSTIN SNEED SAID
HE WAS HIRED
BY RICHARD GLOSSIP
TO KILL THE MOTEL OWNER,
BARRY VAN TREESE.
DOES THAT SQUARE
WITH WHAT HE TOLD YOU?
NO, I NEVER HEARD THAT IT
WAS A MURDER-FOR-HIRE.
I JUST THINK SNEED WAS THERE
DOING SOMETHING THAT
HE SHOULDN'T HAVE BEEN DOING
AND GOT CAUGHT UP IN SOMETHING
THAT WENT REAL, REAL BAD.
ROGER LEE RAMSEY'S STORY
PROVIDES DON KNIGHT
WITH A POSSIBLE
ALTERNATIVE THEORY
TO THE MURDER
OF BARRY VAN TREESE.
AND, IF THIS THEORY
CAN BE CORROBORATED,
IT REALLY HAS THE POTENTIAL
TO BLOW GLOSSIP'S CASE
WIDE OPEN.
**
JUSTIN SNEED
NEVER SAID ANYTHING
ABOUT ANOTHER PERSON
BEING IN THE ROOM WITH HIM.
HE SAID HE KILLED
BARRY VAN TREESE BY HIMSELF,
AT THE BEHEST OF RICHARD.
THERE'S A MUCH
MORE PLAUSIBLE STORY:
THAT THERE WAS ANOTHER
WOMAN IN THAT ROOM
AND THAT THIS WAS
A BOTCHED ROBBERY.
I MEAN, THIS TO ME IS
LIKE, YOU KNOW,
WAS THERE SOMEBODY ELSE
IN THAT ROOM?
WHICH THROWS JUSTIN SNEED'S
STORY OUT THE WINDOW.
SO THAT'S THE SMOKING GUN
YOU'RE LOOKING FOR RIGHT NOW.
YEAH, THAT WOULD BE,
LIKE A GRAND SLAM
AND THAT'S WHAT
WE'RE LOOKIN' FOR.
**
IN YOUR HEART OF HEARTS, WHAT
DO YOU THINK IS GONNA HAPPEN?
WHAT DO YOU THINK IS NEXT?
WHAT I THINK IS NEXT IS,
NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS --
AND I HAVE TO SAY THIS --
NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS,
FOR THE FIRST TIME,
THROUGH ALL OF THIS,
I HAVE THE RIGHT REPRESENTATION.
I HAVE PEOPLE WHO CARE ABOUT ME
AND WHO HAVE FOUGHT
VERY HARD FOR ME.
BUT IF ANYTHING
GOES WRONG WITH THIS,
I CAN'T COMPLAIN NOW
BECAUSE I DID HAVE DON KNIGHT,
I HAD ALL THESE
WONDERFUL PEOPLE,
AND THEY'VE WORKED TIRELESSLY TO
PROVE MY INNOCENCE TO THE WORLD.
IF I HAD TO DIE, I WANTED THE
WORLD TO KNOW I WAS INNOCENT,
AND I WANT TO CONTINUE
TO SHOW PEOPLE THAT I AM.
I DON'T BELIEVE THAT.
I DON'T BELIEVE
THAT HE'S INNOCENT.
WHEN YOU'RE DOING
INVESTIGATIONS,
YOU'RE EITHER GONNA PROVE
A GUY INNOCENT
OR YOU'RE GONNA
PROVE HIM GUILTY.
ONCE WE GET OUR INFORMATION DOWN
AND ONCE WE FILE THE CHARGE,
WELL, WE'RE PRETTY MUCH DONE.
AND I TOLD HIM THAT HE HAD
SEEN THE LAST FREE AIR
THAT HE'LL EVER BREATHE
WHEN WE LOCKED HIM UP,
AND IT WAS TRUE.
IF THAT'S WHAT HE THINKS
IS A GOOD INVESTIGATION,
I'D SAY WHATEVER MAKES HIM
SLEEP WELL AT NIGHT, I GUESS.
I MEAN, HE DID THIS.
HE DID THIS.
HE LEFT ALL OF THE STUFF
THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT UNDONE.
I'VE DONE MY JOB.
WHETHER HE GETS EXECUTED
OR NOT IS ON THEM.
ONCE IT GETS TO THAT POINT,
THAT'S NOT MY PROBLEM.
I'VE DONE WHAT I WAS
SUPPOSED TO DO.
NOW, IF THEY DO IT,
THEN THAT'S ON THEM.
SO, I SLEEP WELL AT NIGHTS.
**
**