Leah Remini: Scientology and the Aftermath (2016–…): Season 2, Episode 4 - The Bridge to Total Freedom - full transcript
Leah leads a round table discussion on The Bridge to Total Freedom and why scientologists spend so much money and time trying to achieve this coveted position.
All right, guys, last look.
We are moments away.
Very close to be starting.
The…
I'm being self-critical.
- Are you suppressing yourself?
- I'm being self-critical.
You're gorgeous, Mike Rinder.
And… quiet please.
All right, guys, we are good to roll.
- Okay. Okay.
- We're good.
All right, we're rolling, guys.
- Get settled.
- Okay, quiet, please.
Quiet on set.
We're gonna be beginning.
And take it away.
Today, we're gonna talk about
the Bridge to Total Freedom.
And I think it's pretty important
for us to set up for our audience
what the Bridge is and
what Scientology is selling,
and why people give up
their children, their lives,
their money for it.
This is a foundation
of everything in Scientology.
It is a delineated path that
every Scientologist must follow.
- Must follow?
- Must.
Yeah.
And when you progress
on these exact steps,
you are supposed to
achieve exact results.
There is precise abilities gained
on this chart.
There are two sides to this Bridge.
One side is the auditing,
which is the counseling…
- Counseling.
- That you receive.
And the other side is the training,
which teaches you to be
a Scientology auditor or counselor.
And every Scientologist seeks to arrive
at the top of this Bridge.
We've built a Bridge,
and we have this
assembly of the Bridge,
and the Bridge goes from
this state of existence
to the last state of existence.
And the Bridge is all complete now,
and it can be walked.
You have to walk on the Bridge.
Really, the first thing
that Scientologists hammer home
is Dianetics.
"Dianetics" is considered the book one
of the entire subject,
and it is held in reverence
by all Scientologists.
It is the foundation of
everything that followed
in Scientology.
What gets in the way of your goals?
What destroys your confidence
and blocks your happiness in life?
Break through the barriers
to your success.
Read "Dianetics" by L. Ron Hubbard.
The theory of Dianetics is very clever.
It says, "Whatever your problems are,
"whether you're upset,
whether you have pains,
"you have sensations, you have emotions
"and things that you don't like,
it's not your fault".
There is this reactive mind
that you have.
That's below your conscious mind?
- Awareness.
- Yes.
And that we have the answer
of how you can eradicate that.
Dianetics reveals how these
negative experiences are stored,
and contains a technology
to free yourself from them.
The idea then becomes
that you can eradicate
your reactive mind
and become what's known
in Scientology as a Clear.
Right.
And Clear in Scientology is
the most important step…
- First step.
- To be achieved for everybody.
Yes, everybody's trying
to get to Clear.
Now, as you process the individual,
you find that he gets
better and better and more able,
but is there any end to this?
Yes, it's a finite state
known as Clear,
and that means that
the individual has erased
his basic illness,
which is his reactive mind.
His unconscious mind is gone,
and he is totally alert
and totally capable.
In order to help us
navigate our way through
the complexities of
the Bridge in Scientology,
we have a number of experts
that are gonna join us today.
The first of which was
a very highly trained auditor,
and he held a very senior position
in the Scientology hierarchy
to oversee the people
moving up the Bridge
all over the world.
His name is Bruce Hines,
and he was formally in
what's called the Senior CS
International Office of Scientology.
- Another silver fox…
- Yeah.
- Amongst us.
- Yeah, it's a thing, you know?
It's a thing us old people have.
Yeah, well…
So, Bruce, give us a basic rundown
of your history with Scientology.
So I started
in Denver, Colorado in 1972,
and then I joined
the Sea Organization in 1979.
You were a Sea Org member
for how many years?
24.
In your 24 years,
what did you think you were attaining?
That I would have perfect memory…
Wouldn't get sick very much, if at all.
Why did you think that?
L. Ron Hubbard says it
over and over again.
This man sets himself up
in Dianetics and Scientology…
is a science and it can be proven.
The reason Scientology's
assumptions are…
can be considered to be true
is because they work,
and Scientology is totally
a workable science.
He promised I would have
supernatural abilities.
You know, I'd be able to
move objects with my mind.
I'd be able to communicate
with people telepathically.
That's what the big promise is.
So L. Ron Hubbard is selling that
and people are buying that,
and that is what people believe,
and that is why they stay.
Absolutely correct.
But had you ever seen anybody
who had telepathic powers?
- Or have you ever?
- No, of course not.
I probably audited
at least 15,000 hours on people,
and when you audit someone,
you get to know them well…
Right.
And never, never was there
any supernatural ability
that you could actually verify
- from any of these people.
- Right.
I think it's pretty important
for us to set up for our audience
that you were forced to write
success stories at each level
that we complete.
And each Scientologist says,
"Yes, that happened".
I mean, I did it, you did it.
You basically sign, saying,
"I accomplished that thing".
But if you say,
"I don't really feel like
I accomplished that,"
you have to pay
to now do something else
to find out
why you didn't achieve that.
Right, I…
People learn very quickly,
though, Leah.
They learn it's smarter to go,
"Oh, yeah, I achieved that".
I'm still asked
how I got into Scientology.
I was brought into Scientology
as a child.
And I think we should
talk to the person
who got me into Scientology.
I think that's an excellent idea.
And that's my mother.
A lot of times, people say, like,
"I don't know how smart people
got into these things".
People assume that
you either have to be
- stupid or just…
- Gullible…
- Gullible.
- Or in a bad place in life,
- or something.
- Right.
So, Mom,
when did you get into
Scientology and why?
I was 20 something years old,
and I got into Scientology,
because I always wanted to be a nurse.
I wanted to help.
And I was looking for something,
and when I read "Dianetics,"
I said, "This is so important".
I said, "I could really
help people here.
That's so much more valuable
than being a nurse".
So I then started to train.
What did you read in
"Dianetics" that made you think
you can help people more
doing Scientology on them
- than being a nurse?
- Okay, well,
you talk about getting rid
of the reactive mind
will handle all kinds of health issues.
I thought, "Wow, no one
will ever be sick again"…
- Right.
- "That's amazing".
By the way, there is
a category of people
that got into Scientology,
like my mother in the '70s,
that was looking for something more.
And my mother didn't have
a mother and father.
They died when she was young.
And, you know, this is a "religion"
that would speak to you,
because it was offering you
something to give back to the world.
Right, because I didn't
really have anything.
It gave me a group…
And it gave me a purpose…
- Right.
- To help others,
and I thought that was amazing,
and I loved it in the beginning.
Right, and then… so when you got in,
what did you think about
the state of Clear?
That you don't have a reactive mind,
that I would never be ill,
and basically a very stable person.
You kinda think that
that's the end-all.
- Clear?
- Clear.
Right. As a matter of fact,
we should say
that when Scientologists say
we are clearing the planet,
that's what they mean.
Scientology believes that if they got
the majority of the planet up to Clear,
that there would be no war,
that there would be a peaceful planet,
because the majority of
the people making decisions
would outweigh any of the bad.
And so that is what people say
when they say,
"We're clearing the planet,"
is trying to get
the majority of the world
- to Clear on the Bridge.
- Correct.
If we are going to make a sane world,
and if we are going to
clear this planet,
we have to ask,
"What are you going to do about it?
What are you going to do
with this planet?"
What I think we should answer,
or try to answer,
is how do people get into Scientology?
Because clearly, you know,
some people at home are like,
"I'd never fall for this shit".
And it's very clever,
the way that it is done.
You start out in Scientology usually,
if you haven't been raised in it,
with doing a test.
On the street, it says "stress tests".
What is a stress test?
A stress test is sitting down
with an E-meter,
and having someone locate
an area of stress in your life
using the E-meter,
and that test is used to then tell you
that Scientology has the answers
for whatever your problems are.
It sets up that this E-meter,
invented by L. Ron Hubbard,
is the thing to believe,
and that's an important moment
for a person to start to
believe in this meter.
Absolutely. The belief in the E-meter
is an absolute requirement
to progressing up the Bridge,
because the E-meter is fundamental
to all Scientology counseling.
No, I know, but what is that
supposed to be doing
to the person walking down the street
- of Hollywood Boulevard?
- Finding a ruin.
- What does that mean?
- That means finding something
that the person has in their life
that they want to improve,
and then telling them,
"Scientology has the answer to that.
"And look, we have
this little course here,
"and this little course teaches you
"how to deal with your finances.
"Or this little course teaches you
"how to handle your children.
"Or this little one teaches you
how to have a better marriage".
Whatever it is,
there is a little course
that is, you know, $35
or 100 bucks or something,
that is giving something
that you feel has some value to you.
Then, you get told, "Well, if
you got something out of that",
then there is more to come.
There's a lot more to come".
But the initial courses that you take
and the introductory things
that you do in Scientology
don't progress you on one
of the steps on the Bridge.
On the Bridge.
And everything is,
"Get onto the Bridge".
- Right, right.
- Upwards, yeah.
Like, the carrot
drives you up the Bridge.
This is not just
the newest, shiniest car.
This is not just the fastest computer.
This is where you are operating
at a level that is beyond
what anybody has ever seen
or even contemplated on planet Earth…
- Right.
- Literally.
I think also what's important
to set up about the Bridge
is how they get the money.
The Department of Registration.
- Right.
- A registrar,
best way to describe it is
he's basically a salesman.
It's a sales function, 'Kay?
People come into the organization,
and they need to get service.
Service costs money.
The registrar works out
how they get it paid for.
Their job is to just get money…
- Gross income.
- Period.
And they say,
"Your first step is this".
And they decide that you need
a certain amount of
what's called intensives.
There is no wall of separation between
the making of money
and the moving people
up the Bridge anywhere.
Right. So, the minimum, I would say,
that it would take to get from
"raw meat," as they call it,
to the top of the Bridge,
I'm saying, it's $300,000, easy.
$250,000, $300,000.
Okay, so that's the Bridge, right?
So, the registrar, they're trained on
how to extract the money
from the parishioner.
Like a car dealership,
sitting there, working the phones,
and they have listening devices,
and their bosses are
calling them, saying,
"Bullshit, they have the money".
Right.
Sometimes, I would get a call and say,
"Bruce, go to the Reg's Office".
And so, I appear, and the Reg's Office
is sort of a technical
authority expert,
and they'd be working on somebody
to get him to pay money.
And they'd say, "So, Bruce…"
"this level here that
he's looking at doing,
you know, how would this help him?"
And so, I would say, "Whatever".
And they're lead to believe that
the Case Supervisor's
totally impartial…
- Right.
- When it's not true.
It's absolutely not true.
That would help convince
a guy to, you know,
run another credit card or whatever.
Now, next we wanna talk
about going up the Bridge,
and that is what everybody
is doing in Scientology.
So Bruce would be my auditor.
Auditing is the process of asking
specifically worded questions
designed to help you find
and handle areas of distress.
This is done with an auditor,
meaning one who listens.
So, let's do Grade Zero here.
These are the kinds of questions
asked on Grade Zero.
And this is all done on E-meter?
- Okay.
- Yeah, so this is one of
- about 50 processes.
- Yeah. Yeah.
"Recall another's
communication with you".
My daughter talking to me about
how she wants to buy
a bigger television.
Very good.
"Recall another's
no-communication with you."
My mother wouldn't take my calls.
All right.
"Recall another's
communication with you".
Mike told me that
I looked lovely in dresses.
- Very good.
- That's true.
"Recall another's
no-communication with you".
Mike said he was tired
and he'll call me tomorrow.
- All right.
- And we go through all of this,
and then at the end of Grade Zero,
I'm supposed to just say,
"I feel like I could
speak freely with anyone"?
Yeah, somewhere along the line,
there would be things to that effect.
And how long would this take,
like, to complete Grade Zero?
Well, of course, it varies,
but, say, 25 hours.
25 hours. And that would be
roughly how much money,
just for Grade Zero?
- 10 grand.
- 10 grand?
$5,000 for a 121/2 hour
intensive is a pretty…
pretty conservative estimate.
Okay. So what's next?
You have to go sit down
and provide a success story.
- You talked about that.
- Right.
Have you ever in your career
in Scientology ever had
a person say, "I did not
achieve these things."
- It's a lie"?
- Yeah.
- And what happened?
- They got declared.
- So they got expelled?
- So, basically,
it's one of the things
that L. Ron Hubbard wrote.
- Right.
- If you don't experience
gains from auditing, the only people
that can't experience gain are SPs,
or Suppressive People.
So… they pay all their money.
They get to it, and they say,
"Hey, these things didn't happen.
This is bullshit".
And so L. Ron Hubbard has…
he made sure that
there was an answer for that.
"It didn't work on you
because you're an evil person".
Yeah, it's nothing to do
with his technology.
There's nothing wrong with it.
There's something wrong with you?
- Yeah.
- The paying customer.
Yeah.
All right, write a success story…
Yep.
And I'm moving on up the Bridge?
- Yep.
- Moving on up!
Then I go to Grade One.
Ability to recognize
the source of problems
- and make them vanish.
- Correct.
So, how would we go about
doing that, Bruce?
Leah, we're gonna run the next process.
Okay.
"Who has failed to control you?"
- My mother.
- Thank you.
"Who has failed to control you?"
My mother.
Good. "Who has failed to control you?"
Should I pick another answer?
- If you like.
- Do whatever you want.
- Mike.
- Thank you.
Okay, so, I go through this,
and what's the realization here?
- It's whatever you realize.
- So it doesn't matter?
It doesn't mean anything right now,
but there's another
50 processes that are coming.
But how do I make my problems vanish?
Well, all you need to do is decide
you're not gonna have any problems,
or you can handle
your problems, whatever…
Okay, how long
does this take, Bruce, roughly?
- Similar.
- Similar. So another $10,000?
Another four to six weeks…
- Going in every day?
- Yeah, very possibly.
Okay. Then we get to Grade Two.
It's relief from the hostilities
and sufferings of life.
- What is that?
- Various worded ways
to get you to tell
the bad stuff you've done
and the stuff you're not
willing to talk about.
So give me some of the questions here.
All right.
"Tell me some things you think
you should not have done to another".
Oh. That'd be a long day.
Well, tell me some.
Uh, okay, I yelled
at some people today.
I maybe wasn't very nice
to people today.
And I cheated on my diet.
- Okay, thank you.
- You're welcome.
"Tell me some things you think
you should not have done to another".
You need more?
Yes, this is a repetitive process.
Oh, so I gotta just say all of this
- until my needle floats?
- Yeah.
What does that usually take, time-wise?
As I recall, Zero, One, and Two
were pretty much similar lengths.
Three and Four tended
to be a little shorter…
- Okay.
- Maybe at One,
you know, 121/2 hours.
So we're talking
$10,000, $20,000, $30,000,
about $40,000 so far here.
- Something like that.
- Okay.
The first major part
of this Bridge is Clear.
How long did it take you
to get to Clear?
It took about, I would say, two years.
Did you feel, when you got
to the state of Clear,
that you had achieved
what Dianetics had promised?
Okay, at that point, I thought I did.
I honestly thought I did.
You believed that
you were keeping sickness
- away from yourself…
- Yes.
- Per Dianetics?
- Yes, per Dianetics.
- Right, 'cause it's a science.
- Exactly right.
Did you think,
"Well, there's something better anyway.
Like, I'm still not OT, so maybe"…
Of course, you always think
there's something else.
You're always looking
for the next level.
- It's what we all say…
- Right.
It's, "We might not have
achieved those things",
"but we were cool with it,
because there was other stuff
that was gonna be better"…
Yes. Do what you have to do
to get to Clear
so you can get onto your OT Levels.
Exactly right.
Most Scientologists
are working their whole lives
to get onto these confidential levels.
What's called the…
OT Levels.
The Operating Thetan Levels.
This idea of what the OT Levels are,
every Scientologist believes
that they are going to achieve powers
- that are beyond this world…
- Yes.
That they are going to
be able to cause changes
- in the world around you…
- In the physical universe.
- By projecting your…
- OT.
Intention, your OT powers, whatever.
And this goes to these success stories,
because Scientology
promotes this heavily,
and puts out these
"OT success stories".
Okay, let's hear some of
these success stories, Mikey.
- Sorry.
- "The other day,
"I was driving in the rain,
"and the car in front of me
stopped suddenly.
"I needed about
three inches more to stop in,
"so I pushed his car forward
about three inches
with pure intention"…
"This startled him considerably,
but then it prevented
any damage from occurring".
Mm.
"Also, I noticed that
I can talk to my cats,
"and have them do
what I want them to do,
which is almost more astounding".
What the fuck?
The L. Ron Hubbard Policy is
you need to get to OT Three quick.
- Right.
- Because there's danger
of being in the middle zone.
- Bruce, what is OT Three?
- The OT Three is
one of these auditing levels
on the Bridge.
- That's confidential?
- Very confidential.
You can't know about it
until you get there.
Right. They have the materials
of OT Three in a briefcase
that only you have the code to,
and then I have to
attach it to my body.
And if I go to the bathroom,
that has to stay connected to my body.
They have scans on them,
so if you were to ever
leave the building,
an alarm would go off.
You could be penalized
for just taking the pack
of the materials
and not putting it in your case.
And you're in the course room.
Also, Scientologists are
forced to sign an agreement
that if we expose
these confidential
secrets to the universe,
we will be fined $100,000.
The other thing which makes
when you get to the OT Levels
so kind of impressive
is when you see OT Three,
and it's L. Ron Hubbard's writing.
- You're like…
- Oh, right.
"This is I. Ron Hubbard.
This is his writing".
Bruce, what is OT Three?
It's basically a type of exorcism.
You are removing from your body,
or attached to you in some way,
spiritual beings that are stuck there,
and they're stuck there,
because of an incident
that happened 75 million years ago.
There was a place
that looked like Earth,
and these people were packaged up
by this crazy galactic leader, Xenu.
And he wanted to
control the population.
Boxed them up in boxes,
threw 'em into space planes.
The… the DC-8 airplane
is the exact copy
of the space plane of that day.
Started on other planets,
came to Earth,
which was called Teegeeack
back in those days.
And they took these people,
then they dumped them,
and then they set off hydrogen bombs
on the top of each primary volcano.
And when they blew up,
it blew the Thetans into the air,
and after tremendous winds
of the planet,
blew everything there was.
And that those people
that were blown up
are now what composes
and makes up our bodies, right?
Yeah.
- It's insane.
- Yeah.
But we all did it.
So my mother was pushing me,
once I went Clear, to get to OT Three.
Just being a good mom.
Just being a good Scientology mom.
Not only did she push me to do it…
just… okay…
But she requested
that she'd be in the room
when I read this for the first time.
- And you know why?
- Why?
'Cause I thought you would
leave at that point.
Okay, but let me show you
what you were doing.
- Okay.
- Okay.
So I'm reading this for the first time,
and I'm looking at her like this,
and I go, "Are you fucking kidding me?"
And you go,
"Isn't that amazing?"
But, Mom, didn't you think
this was crazy?
- Totally.
- But you wanted me to do it?
I did.
Honestly, that's why
I wanted to be with you,
because I thought
that would be it for you.
You would read that and go,
- "What the hell am I doing here?"
- Right.
Oh, they have another genius moment
in Scientology, which is
you cannot verify this, right?
- Right.
- When I was Clear,
I couldn't say to my mother,
who was OT,
"Mom, I saw some shit
in 'TIME' Magazine
about what OT Three is". And she said,
"I can't speak about it,
I can't deny it,
and I can't confirm it"…
"And you'll see when you get there".
L. Ron Hubbard said that,
"I am the only person
"who has ever discovered this
"and unlocked the secrets of this.
It nearly killed me".
I am very sure that I was the first one
that ever did live through
any attempt to attain that material.
This material
I'm talking about, of course,
is very upper level material,
and you will forgive me
if I don't describe it to you
in very broad detail,
because it's very likely
to make you sick too.
That then became
an edict in Scientology,
that if someone who is not prepared,
and has not reached
this level up the Bridge,
is exposed to this material,
you are putting them in jeopardy.
Us revealing this to you
might cause you cancer and pneumonia.
- Or they may even die.
- Right.
Even if you don't completely
100% believe that,
- who's gonna take the risk…
- Of killing their friends…
- Of killing their friends.
- Or their daughter, yeah.
Right.
And it's really, very ingenious,
because then you cannot find out.
Even if a Scientologist is told this,
they can't find out,
because when they go to someone,
and it happened to me,
or they're on TV,
and Katie Couric says…
According to my research,
L. Ron Hubbard,
the father of Scientology,
claimed that 75 million years ago,
an evil galactic ruler named Xenu
killed billions of his people
by sending them to Earth
in space planes.
This is one of those things
that gets spread around,
one of those old stories
that gets run around…
So he never wrote about that?
No. You won't find anything like that
in any of these materials at all.
Oh, my God, I look like such a fool.
Whatever. It was a lie,
but it was a good lie,
because it was a lie
to prevent someone from dying.
- Right.
- Lying, lying, lying,
and that's what Scientologists…
- Are taught to do.
- Believe,
and what they think is
the right thing to do.
The basic tenet of
this Church of Scientology
is to rid the body of
space alien parasites,
to clear oneself.
Um, well,
John, does that sound silly to you?
I… I mean, I…
it's unrecognizable to me.
Let's go through OT Five.
Are you of the belief that on OT Five,
that you were curing yourself
of any illnesses that you had?
Well, I used to think that,
but I did it a lot on other people,
and I thought, "Yeah, I'm helping them
to resolve these physical
troubles that they had".
So you were witness to
people in Scientology saying,
"I'm curing myself of cancer.
I'm curing myself of
some serious illnesses".
And they believed
that you were curing them?
Right, and I can remember
a number of people who said,
"Ooh, I just cured my cancer,"
and then they died two months later.
You know, they were
so convinced that they had.
And it's personal for me,
'cause my sister finished,
and then she died of cancer
at the age of 52.
She was kind of your model
Scientologist in a way.
She was a trained auditor.
She was a trained CS.
She donated to the International
Association of Scientologists.
Did all the stuff
you're supposed to do.
But it certainly
didn't work out for her.
Right.
When you're on the level of OT Seven,
and it's called "The Level,"
that could take people ten or 20 years.
How long were you on OT Seven, Mom?
- I would say about 18 years.
- Right.
So, OT Seven costs a person
on average what?
If it's $30,000 or $40,000 a year,
if you're on it for ten years,
that's $300,000 or $400,000
just for OT Seven.
And that does not include
how much it costs for the course…
Which is OT Six,
which that's another 20 grand.
And then, you also pay
to have a case supervisor
supervising your auditing
- that entire time…
- Yeah.
So $300,000 or $400,000
just for OT Seven
is not either unusual
or overstated.
Then, on top of that,
there are other things
outside the Bridge.
You are required to have a membership
to the International
Association of Scientologists.
Books are being released
over and over again.
Scientologists have to buy those books.
It's mandatory.
Those book packages are $3,000,
- on top of the Bridge.
- On top of the Bridge.
How do you explain
how people pay for this?
I mean, you had a daughter
who was paying your way, but…
The average Scientologist
would take mortgages
out on their homes,
which we did also…
And they would get many credit cards,
and max their credit cards out.
And live below their means.
And live below their means.
Now, Mom, when you got to OT Eight,
you told me then
that you were done with Scientology.
- Correct.
- Was that because OT Eight
wasn't what you thought
it was gonna be?
It was nothing
that I thought it would be.
Well, what did you think
you were going…
I thought it was spiritual freedom
- forever, forever.
- When I had talked to you,
I go, "Is it everything
that you wanted, Mom?"
Is it everything that you
sacrificed your whole life for?"
And you said…
"Not now, Leah"…
- Right.
- And I go, "Okay".
So, basically, what she was saying was,
"No, I can't talk to you about it now,
"because either they're listening,
"or they're gonna keep me here
if they know that I'm not happy".
- Exactly right.
- Yeah.
So this is from
somebody who completed OT.
"I thought OT Eight
was the end of the Bridge.
"It made sense to me that you created"…
- Created it.
- "Your own reactive mind".
- Exactly.
- "OT Eight cognition
"is that your case was all
made up by the Body Thetans,
"that you were never that person"…
- Right.
- "That these Body Thetans
were remembering as your past"…
- Right.
- "And at the top of the Bridge,
"after parting with $1 million or more,
you have"…
"You have re-achieved
"the state of who and what you were
"before you ever walk through the door
of a Dianetic center or organization".
Right, that you're yourself.
- That you are yourself.
- Right,
which is what I've been
saying all along.
Well, doesn't any…
let me ask the cameramen.
Do you know, sir,
that you are who you are?
I absolutely do.
Interesting. And you've
never done any Scientology?
- Not at all.
- We've just saved you millions.
Thank you.
What about you?
Do you know that you are who you are?
- Yeah.
- Not convincing.
I think you need some Scientology.
I mean, is that great…
It's just… it's just…
What the fuck
are you all staring at me for?
Because that's why a lot of
OT Eights left at that point.
Right.
"What are you staring at me for"?
Because you are talking like
this should be some sort of
"oh, my God" moment,
and it's so opposite from
an "oh, my God" moment,
it's like, "Yeah?"
The truth of the matter is
the end result of all of this
is to be told, "Mm, wasn't any of that.
"You weren't any of
those things. Sorry.
"Now you get the chance
to find out who you really are,
"and that is now the final carrot.
"The final carrot is,
"you will find out who you really are
- on OT Nine"…
- That's correct.
- "And OT Ten"…
- Right. That is so true.
But OT Nine and Ten do not exist.
Next, we're gonna be speaking
to one of your auditors…
Ronit,
who was a highly trained auditor.
She was a Sea Org member.
And then her husband, Yossi,
was also a highly trained
auditor as well.
I love that you're here.
I love you two.
Even though you left
the organization of Scientology,
you still believe in Scientology.
- Yeah.
- And you're still…
delivering Scientology
outside of Scientology.
- You're still an auditor.
- Yes.
Yeah, I just wanted to show,
this is very un-Scientology of us.
If I didn't believe,
and I was speaking out
against Scientology,
- and you were in…
- Right.
We wouldn't be able to be
sitting across from each other.
And so I thought it was important
to show this is not Scientology.
We are allowed to have
different beliefs.
I respect you,
that you b… still believe,
and you respect us that we don't.
- Exactly.
- So thank you.
- Yep.
- Yeah, sure.
Yeah. So, let's start with you.
Tell us your Scientology story.
How did you get into Scientology?
- It's all his fault.
- It is, right?
Yeah.
I met him New York in '84…
And he was OT Four.
I met him through a mutual friend.
And I saw something different,
that he was actually listening to me
and acknowledging me,
and it was amazing.
Right. So you joined Sea Org…
- Yeah.
- And you became an auditor,
- a highly trained auditor.
- Yeah, a class nine.
Yes. And you also joined the Sea Org?
Yes, I joined the Sea Org
a little bit after her,
because we all decided that's
the greatest for the group.
Right, it was the best thing
to do for you and your family…
- The best, yeah.
- To help mankind…
- That's correct.
- Through Scientology.
Now, I wanna talk to you guys,
and I wanna bring you into this,
but when did it start
that people would get
all the way up to OT Eight,
let's say…
And then something began
where they started now saying,
"You have to go back down the Bridge"?
That was like 2000, '99, 1999, 2000.
Right, so…
There's been
a whole series of evolutions,
where each time, it is,
"We've discovered new material
or notes from L. Ron Hubbard
that shows you all did it wrong"…
- Yeah.
- "Now, you're gonna pay us
to now do it the way that we say
that you need to do it now".
That's correct.
And this is the same thing
happened with the books, "Evolution".
- Yes.
- Right.
The book, "Evolution,"
was the most ridiculous thing.
They found a comma
not in the right place,
or some word that somebody misspelled,
and they had to redo all the books.
That means "Dianetics".
That means "Fundamental of Thought".
- All the basic books, yeah.
- All the basic books.
The transcriptionist,
they really didn't know where
to begin or end the sentence.
Specifically, here's
where they weren't sure
if it should be a comma or a period,
and so they split the difference
and used a semi-colon,
which a good percentage of readers
never understood in the first place.
And given one semi-colon
begets another,
it wasn't long before it was
the march of the semi-colons,
frustrating readers
and lengthening lines to work theirs
from one end of Scientology to another.
And then, what do you do?
The entire staff of Sea Org
had to sell those books to everybody,
to everybody and themselves
to each other.
We were trained at staff meetings
to sell each other a package.
- Wow.
- It's not a cheap package.
No.
And then, how to sell
to other, we had training.
Staff meetings became horrible.
It became a training drill…
- On how to sell?
- On how to sell.
And everybody sells, auditor sells.
- CS's…
- They have to sell…
- Right, right.
- Everybody has to sell.
Instead of what it was
when L. Ron Hubbard was around,
which is, there is always
a new development
that he would come out with.
When he died, there were
no new developments to bring,
so what do you do with someone
that has done, in theory,
everything up to that point?
You've got to convince them
that they need to go
do something again,
- or start at the beginning…
- Right.
And it has become…
instead of the Bridge up,
it's become the Bridge around.
Now, Ronit, so, how long
were you in the Sea Org
- before you actually left?
- Nine years.
And why did you leave?
Because I start think
things really going downwards,
and the technology's being altered.
And basically,
what I've seen, it's becoming
all about, "Let's get
another intensive."
Let's get another
few thousand dollars".
Basically, money-motivated machine,
instead of actually helping
and practicing Scientology.
For me, it was…
how terribly
Sea Org members are treated.
That in itself made me think,
"I'm not free in this place.
I cannot have life".
So, why did we all stay?
'Cause we all thought
it was gonna get better.
Yeah.
That's the short answer
that's the true answer,
I think, for everybody.
Yeah.
And eventually, you get to the point
- where you realize, it isn't.
- Right.
So I kind of…
"No, I cannot take it anymore.
I cannot see my personal freedom,"
which I came to Scientology,
to be free of things.
I became shackled.
So I couldn't stand it.
That was like… I said,
"Okay, if she wants to stay, fine.
If my kids want to stay, fine.
I'm not staying".
I said, "I'll do anything.
Just leave me alone."
I don't want to disconnect".
And…
So, one person said to me…
he said,
"You won't ever be successful".
"You'll never be successful".
I knew it's wrong.
The other guy said, "You will
never see your family,"
because I'm the worst
person in the world.
I will never see my kids.
And I said,
"No, it's not gonna happen".
I still don't know.
- It comes…
- It… I know.
It comes, and it's still nightmarish,
still today, 10 years after I left.
Yeah. But you did make it.
- Yes.
- And you do have your family.
- And I do have my family.
- Mike was just talking about
how he has nightmares about
being back in the Sea Org…
- Oh, yeah.
- And, you know, I think
we all take for granted…
like, being held prisoner
is a pretty big deal, Mike.
You know, you guys
were held in trailers,
and nails put in,
so that you guys didn't get out.
And I just think there's
a lot of, like, trauma…
- Yeah, there is.
- Connected to
what we've all been through,
what Scientologists and Sea Org
members have been through.
They take you absolute prisoner.
Your life, your spirituality,
your freedom,
they make you believe that without it,
- you will be a failure…
- Yeah.
They make you believe without it,
you will literally die.
My mother was taken from me
for 15, 20 years,
'cause she was on OT Seven,
but even that she was
from my childhood,
because she was on staff,
and she was doing Scientology.
And that, I mean…
And that's kind of what I was
doing when my daughter was born.
You know, I was doing…
my… getting onto my OT Levels,
and I was having to do a course
that I had to be on-course
from 8:00 in the morning
till 10:00 at night,
and so I was going down
the same path in the beginning.
Thank God she's too young to remember.
But, you know, Scientology, it's like,
you sacrifice everything,
money, time, your family, your careers,
- for this Bridge…
- Right.
And I hope that
we have explained to people,
don't waste your time.
- And thank you, Mom.
- Sure.
Listen, Mom, I know you have guilt,
'cause you have talked
to me about this.
She's Jewish. She has to have guilt.
Right, exactly.
Mom, I wouldn't be here without you.
Like, the whole thing
and getting me into Scientology…
Oh, you're gonna make me cry.
No, but I think
it was, like, for a purpose.
I look at all of our lives,
and I go… you know, we're all here now.
You have your amazing family intact.
You're now still helping people.
And you are.
And you're helping people
by doing this.
But, Mom, it's from you…
but had I not gotten into it,
I wouldn't be here now.
That's true.
I might have just been
an average person.
We are moments away.
Very close to be starting.
The…
I'm being self-critical.
- Are you suppressing yourself?
- I'm being self-critical.
You're gorgeous, Mike Rinder.
And… quiet please.
All right, guys, we are good to roll.
- Okay. Okay.
- We're good.
All right, we're rolling, guys.
- Get settled.
- Okay, quiet, please.
Quiet on set.
We're gonna be beginning.
And take it away.
Today, we're gonna talk about
the Bridge to Total Freedom.
And I think it's pretty important
for us to set up for our audience
what the Bridge is and
what Scientology is selling,
and why people give up
their children, their lives,
their money for it.
This is a foundation
of everything in Scientology.
It is a delineated path that
every Scientologist must follow.
- Must follow?
- Must.
Yeah.
And when you progress
on these exact steps,
you are supposed to
achieve exact results.
There is precise abilities gained
on this chart.
There are two sides to this Bridge.
One side is the auditing,
which is the counseling…
- Counseling.
- That you receive.
And the other side is the training,
which teaches you to be
a Scientology auditor or counselor.
And every Scientologist seeks to arrive
at the top of this Bridge.
We've built a Bridge,
and we have this
assembly of the Bridge,
and the Bridge goes from
this state of existence
to the last state of existence.
And the Bridge is all complete now,
and it can be walked.
You have to walk on the Bridge.
Really, the first thing
that Scientologists hammer home
is Dianetics.
"Dianetics" is considered the book one
of the entire subject,
and it is held in reverence
by all Scientologists.
It is the foundation of
everything that followed
in Scientology.
What gets in the way of your goals?
What destroys your confidence
and blocks your happiness in life?
Break through the barriers
to your success.
Read "Dianetics" by L. Ron Hubbard.
The theory of Dianetics is very clever.
It says, "Whatever your problems are,
"whether you're upset,
whether you have pains,
"you have sensations, you have emotions
"and things that you don't like,
it's not your fault".
There is this reactive mind
that you have.
That's below your conscious mind?
- Awareness.
- Yes.
And that we have the answer
of how you can eradicate that.
Dianetics reveals how these
negative experiences are stored,
and contains a technology
to free yourself from them.
The idea then becomes
that you can eradicate
your reactive mind
and become what's known
in Scientology as a Clear.
Right.
And Clear in Scientology is
the most important step…
- First step.
- To be achieved for everybody.
Yes, everybody's trying
to get to Clear.
Now, as you process the individual,
you find that he gets
better and better and more able,
but is there any end to this?
Yes, it's a finite state
known as Clear,
and that means that
the individual has erased
his basic illness,
which is his reactive mind.
His unconscious mind is gone,
and he is totally alert
and totally capable.
In order to help us
navigate our way through
the complexities of
the Bridge in Scientology,
we have a number of experts
that are gonna join us today.
The first of which was
a very highly trained auditor,
and he held a very senior position
in the Scientology hierarchy
to oversee the people
moving up the Bridge
all over the world.
His name is Bruce Hines,
and he was formally in
what's called the Senior CS
International Office of Scientology.
- Another silver fox…
- Yeah.
- Amongst us.
- Yeah, it's a thing, you know?
It's a thing us old people have.
Yeah, well…
So, Bruce, give us a basic rundown
of your history with Scientology.
So I started
in Denver, Colorado in 1972,
and then I joined
the Sea Organization in 1979.
You were a Sea Org member
for how many years?
24.
In your 24 years,
what did you think you were attaining?
That I would have perfect memory…
Wouldn't get sick very much, if at all.
Why did you think that?
L. Ron Hubbard says it
over and over again.
This man sets himself up
in Dianetics and Scientology…
is a science and it can be proven.
The reason Scientology's
assumptions are…
can be considered to be true
is because they work,
and Scientology is totally
a workable science.
He promised I would have
supernatural abilities.
You know, I'd be able to
move objects with my mind.
I'd be able to communicate
with people telepathically.
That's what the big promise is.
So L. Ron Hubbard is selling that
and people are buying that,
and that is what people believe,
and that is why they stay.
Absolutely correct.
But had you ever seen anybody
who had telepathic powers?
- Or have you ever?
- No, of course not.
I probably audited
at least 15,000 hours on people,
and when you audit someone,
you get to know them well…
Right.
And never, never was there
any supernatural ability
that you could actually verify
- from any of these people.
- Right.
I think it's pretty important
for us to set up for our audience
that you were forced to write
success stories at each level
that we complete.
And each Scientologist says,
"Yes, that happened".
I mean, I did it, you did it.
You basically sign, saying,
"I accomplished that thing".
But if you say,
"I don't really feel like
I accomplished that,"
you have to pay
to now do something else
to find out
why you didn't achieve that.
Right, I…
People learn very quickly,
though, Leah.
They learn it's smarter to go,
"Oh, yeah, I achieved that".
I'm still asked
how I got into Scientology.
I was brought into Scientology
as a child.
And I think we should
talk to the person
who got me into Scientology.
I think that's an excellent idea.
And that's my mother.
A lot of times, people say, like,
"I don't know how smart people
got into these things".
People assume that
you either have to be
- stupid or just…
- Gullible…
- Gullible.
- Or in a bad place in life,
- or something.
- Right.
So, Mom,
when did you get into
Scientology and why?
I was 20 something years old,
and I got into Scientology,
because I always wanted to be a nurse.
I wanted to help.
And I was looking for something,
and when I read "Dianetics,"
I said, "This is so important".
I said, "I could really
help people here.
That's so much more valuable
than being a nurse".
So I then started to train.
What did you read in
"Dianetics" that made you think
you can help people more
doing Scientology on them
- than being a nurse?
- Okay, well,
you talk about getting rid
of the reactive mind
will handle all kinds of health issues.
I thought, "Wow, no one
will ever be sick again"…
- Right.
- "That's amazing".
By the way, there is
a category of people
that got into Scientology,
like my mother in the '70s,
that was looking for something more.
And my mother didn't have
a mother and father.
They died when she was young.
And, you know, this is a "religion"
that would speak to you,
because it was offering you
something to give back to the world.
Right, because I didn't
really have anything.
It gave me a group…
And it gave me a purpose…
- Right.
- To help others,
and I thought that was amazing,
and I loved it in the beginning.
Right, and then… so when you got in,
what did you think about
the state of Clear?
That you don't have a reactive mind,
that I would never be ill,
and basically a very stable person.
You kinda think that
that's the end-all.
- Clear?
- Clear.
Right. As a matter of fact,
we should say
that when Scientologists say
we are clearing the planet,
that's what they mean.
Scientology believes that if they got
the majority of the planet up to Clear,
that there would be no war,
that there would be a peaceful planet,
because the majority of
the people making decisions
would outweigh any of the bad.
And so that is what people say
when they say,
"We're clearing the planet,"
is trying to get
the majority of the world
- to Clear on the Bridge.
- Correct.
If we are going to make a sane world,
and if we are going to
clear this planet,
we have to ask,
"What are you going to do about it?
What are you going to do
with this planet?"
What I think we should answer,
or try to answer,
is how do people get into Scientology?
Because clearly, you know,
some people at home are like,
"I'd never fall for this shit".
And it's very clever,
the way that it is done.
You start out in Scientology usually,
if you haven't been raised in it,
with doing a test.
On the street, it says "stress tests".
What is a stress test?
A stress test is sitting down
with an E-meter,
and having someone locate
an area of stress in your life
using the E-meter,
and that test is used to then tell you
that Scientology has the answers
for whatever your problems are.
It sets up that this E-meter,
invented by L. Ron Hubbard,
is the thing to believe,
and that's an important moment
for a person to start to
believe in this meter.
Absolutely. The belief in the E-meter
is an absolute requirement
to progressing up the Bridge,
because the E-meter is fundamental
to all Scientology counseling.
No, I know, but what is that
supposed to be doing
to the person walking down the street
- of Hollywood Boulevard?
- Finding a ruin.
- What does that mean?
- That means finding something
that the person has in their life
that they want to improve,
and then telling them,
"Scientology has the answer to that.
"And look, we have
this little course here,
"and this little course teaches you
"how to deal with your finances.
"Or this little course teaches you
"how to handle your children.
"Or this little one teaches you
how to have a better marriage".
Whatever it is,
there is a little course
that is, you know, $35
or 100 bucks or something,
that is giving something
that you feel has some value to you.
Then, you get told, "Well, if
you got something out of that",
then there is more to come.
There's a lot more to come".
But the initial courses that you take
and the introductory things
that you do in Scientology
don't progress you on one
of the steps on the Bridge.
On the Bridge.
And everything is,
"Get onto the Bridge".
- Right, right.
- Upwards, yeah.
Like, the carrot
drives you up the Bridge.
This is not just
the newest, shiniest car.
This is not just the fastest computer.
This is where you are operating
at a level that is beyond
what anybody has ever seen
or even contemplated on planet Earth…
- Right.
- Literally.
I think also what's important
to set up about the Bridge
is how they get the money.
The Department of Registration.
- Right.
- A registrar,
best way to describe it is
he's basically a salesman.
It's a sales function, 'Kay?
People come into the organization,
and they need to get service.
Service costs money.
The registrar works out
how they get it paid for.
Their job is to just get money…
- Gross income.
- Period.
And they say,
"Your first step is this".
And they decide that you need
a certain amount of
what's called intensives.
There is no wall of separation between
the making of money
and the moving people
up the Bridge anywhere.
Right. So, the minimum, I would say,
that it would take to get from
"raw meat," as they call it,
to the top of the Bridge,
I'm saying, it's $300,000, easy.
$250,000, $300,000.
Okay, so that's the Bridge, right?
So, the registrar, they're trained on
how to extract the money
from the parishioner.
Like a car dealership,
sitting there, working the phones,
and they have listening devices,
and their bosses are
calling them, saying,
"Bullshit, they have the money".
Right.
Sometimes, I would get a call and say,
"Bruce, go to the Reg's Office".
And so, I appear, and the Reg's Office
is sort of a technical
authority expert,
and they'd be working on somebody
to get him to pay money.
And they'd say, "So, Bruce…"
"this level here that
he's looking at doing,
you know, how would this help him?"
And so, I would say, "Whatever".
And they're lead to believe that
the Case Supervisor's
totally impartial…
- Right.
- When it's not true.
It's absolutely not true.
That would help convince
a guy to, you know,
run another credit card or whatever.
Now, next we wanna talk
about going up the Bridge,
and that is what everybody
is doing in Scientology.
So Bruce would be my auditor.
Auditing is the process of asking
specifically worded questions
designed to help you find
and handle areas of distress.
This is done with an auditor,
meaning one who listens.
So, let's do Grade Zero here.
These are the kinds of questions
asked on Grade Zero.
And this is all done on E-meter?
- Okay.
- Yeah, so this is one of
- about 50 processes.
- Yeah. Yeah.
"Recall another's
communication with you".
My daughter talking to me about
how she wants to buy
a bigger television.
Very good.
"Recall another's
no-communication with you."
My mother wouldn't take my calls.
All right.
"Recall another's
communication with you".
Mike told me that
I looked lovely in dresses.
- Very good.
- That's true.
"Recall another's
no-communication with you".
Mike said he was tired
and he'll call me tomorrow.
- All right.
- And we go through all of this,
and then at the end of Grade Zero,
I'm supposed to just say,
"I feel like I could
speak freely with anyone"?
Yeah, somewhere along the line,
there would be things to that effect.
And how long would this take,
like, to complete Grade Zero?
Well, of course, it varies,
but, say, 25 hours.
25 hours. And that would be
roughly how much money,
just for Grade Zero?
- 10 grand.
- 10 grand?
$5,000 for a 121/2 hour
intensive is a pretty…
pretty conservative estimate.
Okay. So what's next?
You have to go sit down
and provide a success story.
- You talked about that.
- Right.
Have you ever in your career
in Scientology ever had
a person say, "I did not
achieve these things."
- It's a lie"?
- Yeah.
- And what happened?
- They got declared.
- So they got expelled?
- So, basically,
it's one of the things
that L. Ron Hubbard wrote.
- Right.
- If you don't experience
gains from auditing, the only people
that can't experience gain are SPs,
or Suppressive People.
So… they pay all their money.
They get to it, and they say,
"Hey, these things didn't happen.
This is bullshit".
And so L. Ron Hubbard has…
he made sure that
there was an answer for that.
"It didn't work on you
because you're an evil person".
Yeah, it's nothing to do
with his technology.
There's nothing wrong with it.
There's something wrong with you?
- Yeah.
- The paying customer.
Yeah.
All right, write a success story…
Yep.
And I'm moving on up the Bridge?
- Yep.
- Moving on up!
Then I go to Grade One.
Ability to recognize
the source of problems
- and make them vanish.
- Correct.
So, how would we go about
doing that, Bruce?
Leah, we're gonna run the next process.
Okay.
"Who has failed to control you?"
- My mother.
- Thank you.
"Who has failed to control you?"
My mother.
Good. "Who has failed to control you?"
Should I pick another answer?
- If you like.
- Do whatever you want.
- Mike.
- Thank you.
Okay, so, I go through this,
and what's the realization here?
- It's whatever you realize.
- So it doesn't matter?
It doesn't mean anything right now,
but there's another
50 processes that are coming.
But how do I make my problems vanish?
Well, all you need to do is decide
you're not gonna have any problems,
or you can handle
your problems, whatever…
Okay, how long
does this take, Bruce, roughly?
- Similar.
- Similar. So another $10,000?
Another four to six weeks…
- Going in every day?
- Yeah, very possibly.
Okay. Then we get to Grade Two.
It's relief from the hostilities
and sufferings of life.
- What is that?
- Various worded ways
to get you to tell
the bad stuff you've done
and the stuff you're not
willing to talk about.
So give me some of the questions here.
All right.
"Tell me some things you think
you should not have done to another".
Oh. That'd be a long day.
Well, tell me some.
Uh, okay, I yelled
at some people today.
I maybe wasn't very nice
to people today.
And I cheated on my diet.
- Okay, thank you.
- You're welcome.
"Tell me some things you think
you should not have done to another".
You need more?
Yes, this is a repetitive process.
Oh, so I gotta just say all of this
- until my needle floats?
- Yeah.
What does that usually take, time-wise?
As I recall, Zero, One, and Two
were pretty much similar lengths.
Three and Four tended
to be a little shorter…
- Okay.
- Maybe at One,
you know, 121/2 hours.
So we're talking
$10,000, $20,000, $30,000,
about $40,000 so far here.
- Something like that.
- Okay.
The first major part
of this Bridge is Clear.
How long did it take you
to get to Clear?
It took about, I would say, two years.
Did you feel, when you got
to the state of Clear,
that you had achieved
what Dianetics had promised?
Okay, at that point, I thought I did.
I honestly thought I did.
You believed that
you were keeping sickness
- away from yourself…
- Yes.
- Per Dianetics?
- Yes, per Dianetics.
- Right, 'cause it's a science.
- Exactly right.
Did you think,
"Well, there's something better anyway.
Like, I'm still not OT, so maybe"…
Of course, you always think
there's something else.
You're always looking
for the next level.
- It's what we all say…
- Right.
It's, "We might not have
achieved those things",
"but we were cool with it,
because there was other stuff
that was gonna be better"…
Yes. Do what you have to do
to get to Clear
so you can get onto your OT Levels.
Exactly right.
Most Scientologists
are working their whole lives
to get onto these confidential levels.
What's called the…
OT Levels.
The Operating Thetan Levels.
This idea of what the OT Levels are,
every Scientologist believes
that they are going to achieve powers
- that are beyond this world…
- Yes.
That they are going to
be able to cause changes
- in the world around you…
- In the physical universe.
- By projecting your…
- OT.
Intention, your OT powers, whatever.
And this goes to these success stories,
because Scientology
promotes this heavily,
and puts out these
"OT success stories".
Okay, let's hear some of
these success stories, Mikey.
- Sorry.
- "The other day,
"I was driving in the rain,
"and the car in front of me
stopped suddenly.
"I needed about
three inches more to stop in,
"so I pushed his car forward
about three inches
with pure intention"…
"This startled him considerably,
but then it prevented
any damage from occurring".
Mm.
"Also, I noticed that
I can talk to my cats,
"and have them do
what I want them to do,
which is almost more astounding".
What the fuck?
The L. Ron Hubbard Policy is
you need to get to OT Three quick.
- Right.
- Because there's danger
of being in the middle zone.
- Bruce, what is OT Three?
- The OT Three is
one of these auditing levels
on the Bridge.
- That's confidential?
- Very confidential.
You can't know about it
until you get there.
Right. They have the materials
of OT Three in a briefcase
that only you have the code to,
and then I have to
attach it to my body.
And if I go to the bathroom,
that has to stay connected to my body.
They have scans on them,
so if you were to ever
leave the building,
an alarm would go off.
You could be penalized
for just taking the pack
of the materials
and not putting it in your case.
And you're in the course room.
Also, Scientologists are
forced to sign an agreement
that if we expose
these confidential
secrets to the universe,
we will be fined $100,000.
The other thing which makes
when you get to the OT Levels
so kind of impressive
is when you see OT Three,
and it's L. Ron Hubbard's writing.
- You're like…
- Oh, right.
"This is I. Ron Hubbard.
This is his writing".
Bruce, what is OT Three?
It's basically a type of exorcism.
You are removing from your body,
or attached to you in some way,
spiritual beings that are stuck there,
and they're stuck there,
because of an incident
that happened 75 million years ago.
There was a place
that looked like Earth,
and these people were packaged up
by this crazy galactic leader, Xenu.
And he wanted to
control the population.
Boxed them up in boxes,
threw 'em into space planes.
The… the DC-8 airplane
is the exact copy
of the space plane of that day.
Started on other planets,
came to Earth,
which was called Teegeeack
back in those days.
And they took these people,
then they dumped them,
and then they set off hydrogen bombs
on the top of each primary volcano.
And when they blew up,
it blew the Thetans into the air,
and after tremendous winds
of the planet,
blew everything there was.
And that those people
that were blown up
are now what composes
and makes up our bodies, right?
Yeah.
- It's insane.
- Yeah.
But we all did it.
So my mother was pushing me,
once I went Clear, to get to OT Three.
Just being a good mom.
Just being a good Scientology mom.
Not only did she push me to do it…
just… okay…
But she requested
that she'd be in the room
when I read this for the first time.
- And you know why?
- Why?
'Cause I thought you would
leave at that point.
Okay, but let me show you
what you were doing.
- Okay.
- Okay.
So I'm reading this for the first time,
and I'm looking at her like this,
and I go, "Are you fucking kidding me?"
And you go,
"Isn't that amazing?"
But, Mom, didn't you think
this was crazy?
- Totally.
- But you wanted me to do it?
I did.
Honestly, that's why
I wanted to be with you,
because I thought
that would be it for you.
You would read that and go,
- "What the hell am I doing here?"
- Right.
Oh, they have another genius moment
in Scientology, which is
you cannot verify this, right?
- Right.
- When I was Clear,
I couldn't say to my mother,
who was OT,
"Mom, I saw some shit
in 'TIME' Magazine
about what OT Three is". And she said,
"I can't speak about it,
I can't deny it,
and I can't confirm it"…
"And you'll see when you get there".
L. Ron Hubbard said that,
"I am the only person
"who has ever discovered this
"and unlocked the secrets of this.
It nearly killed me".
I am very sure that I was the first one
that ever did live through
any attempt to attain that material.
This material
I'm talking about, of course,
is very upper level material,
and you will forgive me
if I don't describe it to you
in very broad detail,
because it's very likely
to make you sick too.
That then became
an edict in Scientology,
that if someone who is not prepared,
and has not reached
this level up the Bridge,
is exposed to this material,
you are putting them in jeopardy.
Us revealing this to you
might cause you cancer and pneumonia.
- Or they may even die.
- Right.
Even if you don't completely
100% believe that,
- who's gonna take the risk…
- Of killing their friends…
- Of killing their friends.
- Or their daughter, yeah.
Right.
And it's really, very ingenious,
because then you cannot find out.
Even if a Scientologist is told this,
they can't find out,
because when they go to someone,
and it happened to me,
or they're on TV,
and Katie Couric says…
According to my research,
L. Ron Hubbard,
the father of Scientology,
claimed that 75 million years ago,
an evil galactic ruler named Xenu
killed billions of his people
by sending them to Earth
in space planes.
This is one of those things
that gets spread around,
one of those old stories
that gets run around…
So he never wrote about that?
No. You won't find anything like that
in any of these materials at all.
Oh, my God, I look like such a fool.
Whatever. It was a lie,
but it was a good lie,
because it was a lie
to prevent someone from dying.
- Right.
- Lying, lying, lying,
and that's what Scientologists…
- Are taught to do.
- Believe,
and what they think is
the right thing to do.
The basic tenet of
this Church of Scientology
is to rid the body of
space alien parasites,
to clear oneself.
Um, well,
John, does that sound silly to you?
I… I mean, I…
it's unrecognizable to me.
Let's go through OT Five.
Are you of the belief that on OT Five,
that you were curing yourself
of any illnesses that you had?
Well, I used to think that,
but I did it a lot on other people,
and I thought, "Yeah, I'm helping them
to resolve these physical
troubles that they had".
So you were witness to
people in Scientology saying,
"I'm curing myself of cancer.
I'm curing myself of
some serious illnesses".
And they believed
that you were curing them?
Right, and I can remember
a number of people who said,
"Ooh, I just cured my cancer,"
and then they died two months later.
You know, they were
so convinced that they had.
And it's personal for me,
'cause my sister finished,
and then she died of cancer
at the age of 52.
She was kind of your model
Scientologist in a way.
She was a trained auditor.
She was a trained CS.
She donated to the International
Association of Scientologists.
Did all the stuff
you're supposed to do.
But it certainly
didn't work out for her.
Right.
When you're on the level of OT Seven,
and it's called "The Level,"
that could take people ten or 20 years.
How long were you on OT Seven, Mom?
- I would say about 18 years.
- Right.
So, OT Seven costs a person
on average what?
If it's $30,000 or $40,000 a year,
if you're on it for ten years,
that's $300,000 or $400,000
just for OT Seven.
And that does not include
how much it costs for the course…
Which is OT Six,
which that's another 20 grand.
And then, you also pay
to have a case supervisor
supervising your auditing
- that entire time…
- Yeah.
So $300,000 or $400,000
just for OT Seven
is not either unusual
or overstated.
Then, on top of that,
there are other things
outside the Bridge.
You are required to have a membership
to the International
Association of Scientologists.
Books are being released
over and over again.
Scientologists have to buy those books.
It's mandatory.
Those book packages are $3,000,
- on top of the Bridge.
- On top of the Bridge.
How do you explain
how people pay for this?
I mean, you had a daughter
who was paying your way, but…
The average Scientologist
would take mortgages
out on their homes,
which we did also…
And they would get many credit cards,
and max their credit cards out.
And live below their means.
And live below their means.
Now, Mom, when you got to OT Eight,
you told me then
that you were done with Scientology.
- Correct.
- Was that because OT Eight
wasn't what you thought
it was gonna be?
It was nothing
that I thought it would be.
Well, what did you think
you were going…
I thought it was spiritual freedom
- forever, forever.
- When I had talked to you,
I go, "Is it everything
that you wanted, Mom?"
Is it everything that you
sacrificed your whole life for?"
And you said…
"Not now, Leah"…
- Right.
- And I go, "Okay".
So, basically, what she was saying was,
"No, I can't talk to you about it now,
"because either they're listening,
"or they're gonna keep me here
if they know that I'm not happy".
- Exactly right.
- Yeah.
So this is from
somebody who completed OT.
"I thought OT Eight
was the end of the Bridge.
"It made sense to me that you created"…
- Created it.
- "Your own reactive mind".
- Exactly.
- "OT Eight cognition
"is that your case was all
made up by the Body Thetans,
"that you were never that person"…
- Right.
- "That these Body Thetans
were remembering as your past"…
- Right.
- "And at the top of the Bridge,
"after parting with $1 million or more,
you have"…
"You have re-achieved
"the state of who and what you were
"before you ever walk through the door
of a Dianetic center or organization".
Right, that you're yourself.
- That you are yourself.
- Right,
which is what I've been
saying all along.
Well, doesn't any…
let me ask the cameramen.
Do you know, sir,
that you are who you are?
I absolutely do.
Interesting. And you've
never done any Scientology?
- Not at all.
- We've just saved you millions.
Thank you.
What about you?
Do you know that you are who you are?
- Yeah.
- Not convincing.
I think you need some Scientology.
I mean, is that great…
It's just… it's just…
What the fuck
are you all staring at me for?
Because that's why a lot of
OT Eights left at that point.
Right.
"What are you staring at me for"?
Because you are talking like
this should be some sort of
"oh, my God" moment,
and it's so opposite from
an "oh, my God" moment,
it's like, "Yeah?"
The truth of the matter is
the end result of all of this
is to be told, "Mm, wasn't any of that.
"You weren't any of
those things. Sorry.
"Now you get the chance
to find out who you really are,
"and that is now the final carrot.
"The final carrot is,
"you will find out who you really are
- on OT Nine"…
- That's correct.
- "And OT Ten"…
- Right. That is so true.
But OT Nine and Ten do not exist.
Next, we're gonna be speaking
to one of your auditors…
Ronit,
who was a highly trained auditor.
She was a Sea Org member.
And then her husband, Yossi,
was also a highly trained
auditor as well.
I love that you're here.
I love you two.
Even though you left
the organization of Scientology,
you still believe in Scientology.
- Yeah.
- And you're still…
delivering Scientology
outside of Scientology.
- You're still an auditor.
- Yes.
Yeah, I just wanted to show,
this is very un-Scientology of us.
If I didn't believe,
and I was speaking out
against Scientology,
- and you were in…
- Right.
We wouldn't be able to be
sitting across from each other.
And so I thought it was important
to show this is not Scientology.
We are allowed to have
different beliefs.
I respect you,
that you b… still believe,
and you respect us that we don't.
- Exactly.
- So thank you.
- Yep.
- Yeah, sure.
Yeah. So, let's start with you.
Tell us your Scientology story.
How did you get into Scientology?
- It's all his fault.
- It is, right?
Yeah.
I met him New York in '84…
And he was OT Four.
I met him through a mutual friend.
And I saw something different,
that he was actually listening to me
and acknowledging me,
and it was amazing.
Right. So you joined Sea Org…
- Yeah.
- And you became an auditor,
- a highly trained auditor.
- Yeah, a class nine.
Yes. And you also joined the Sea Org?
Yes, I joined the Sea Org
a little bit after her,
because we all decided that's
the greatest for the group.
Right, it was the best thing
to do for you and your family…
- The best, yeah.
- To help mankind…
- That's correct.
- Through Scientology.
Now, I wanna talk to you guys,
and I wanna bring you into this,
but when did it start
that people would get
all the way up to OT Eight,
let's say…
And then something began
where they started now saying,
"You have to go back down the Bridge"?
That was like 2000, '99, 1999, 2000.
Right, so…
There's been
a whole series of evolutions,
where each time, it is,
"We've discovered new material
or notes from L. Ron Hubbard
that shows you all did it wrong"…
- Yeah.
- "Now, you're gonna pay us
to now do it the way that we say
that you need to do it now".
That's correct.
And this is the same thing
happened with the books, "Evolution".
- Yes.
- Right.
The book, "Evolution,"
was the most ridiculous thing.
They found a comma
not in the right place,
or some word that somebody misspelled,
and they had to redo all the books.
That means "Dianetics".
That means "Fundamental of Thought".
- All the basic books, yeah.
- All the basic books.
The transcriptionist,
they really didn't know where
to begin or end the sentence.
Specifically, here's
where they weren't sure
if it should be a comma or a period,
and so they split the difference
and used a semi-colon,
which a good percentage of readers
never understood in the first place.
And given one semi-colon
begets another,
it wasn't long before it was
the march of the semi-colons,
frustrating readers
and lengthening lines to work theirs
from one end of Scientology to another.
And then, what do you do?
The entire staff of Sea Org
had to sell those books to everybody,
to everybody and themselves
to each other.
We were trained at staff meetings
to sell each other a package.
- Wow.
- It's not a cheap package.
No.
And then, how to sell
to other, we had training.
Staff meetings became horrible.
It became a training drill…
- On how to sell?
- On how to sell.
And everybody sells, auditor sells.
- CS's…
- They have to sell…
- Right, right.
- Everybody has to sell.
Instead of what it was
when L. Ron Hubbard was around,
which is, there is always
a new development
that he would come out with.
When he died, there were
no new developments to bring,
so what do you do with someone
that has done, in theory,
everything up to that point?
You've got to convince them
that they need to go
do something again,
- or start at the beginning…
- Right.
And it has become…
instead of the Bridge up,
it's become the Bridge around.
Now, Ronit, so, how long
were you in the Sea Org
- before you actually left?
- Nine years.
And why did you leave?
Because I start think
things really going downwards,
and the technology's being altered.
And basically,
what I've seen, it's becoming
all about, "Let's get
another intensive."
Let's get another
few thousand dollars".
Basically, money-motivated machine,
instead of actually helping
and practicing Scientology.
For me, it was…
how terribly
Sea Org members are treated.
That in itself made me think,
"I'm not free in this place.
I cannot have life".
So, why did we all stay?
'Cause we all thought
it was gonna get better.
Yeah.
That's the short answer
that's the true answer,
I think, for everybody.
Yeah.
And eventually, you get to the point
- where you realize, it isn't.
- Right.
So I kind of…
"No, I cannot take it anymore.
I cannot see my personal freedom,"
which I came to Scientology,
to be free of things.
I became shackled.
So I couldn't stand it.
That was like… I said,
"Okay, if she wants to stay, fine.
If my kids want to stay, fine.
I'm not staying".
I said, "I'll do anything.
Just leave me alone."
I don't want to disconnect".
And…
So, one person said to me…
he said,
"You won't ever be successful".
"You'll never be successful".
I knew it's wrong.
The other guy said, "You will
never see your family,"
because I'm the worst
person in the world.
I will never see my kids.
And I said,
"No, it's not gonna happen".
I still don't know.
- It comes…
- It… I know.
It comes, and it's still nightmarish,
still today, 10 years after I left.
Yeah. But you did make it.
- Yes.
- And you do have your family.
- And I do have my family.
- Mike was just talking about
how he has nightmares about
being back in the Sea Org…
- Oh, yeah.
- And, you know, I think
we all take for granted…
like, being held prisoner
is a pretty big deal, Mike.
You know, you guys
were held in trailers,
and nails put in,
so that you guys didn't get out.
And I just think there's
a lot of, like, trauma…
- Yeah, there is.
- Connected to
what we've all been through,
what Scientologists and Sea Org
members have been through.
They take you absolute prisoner.
Your life, your spirituality,
your freedom,
they make you believe that without it,
- you will be a failure…
- Yeah.
They make you believe without it,
you will literally die.
My mother was taken from me
for 15, 20 years,
'cause she was on OT Seven,
but even that she was
from my childhood,
because she was on staff,
and she was doing Scientology.
And that, I mean…
And that's kind of what I was
doing when my daughter was born.
You know, I was doing…
my… getting onto my OT Levels,
and I was having to do a course
that I had to be on-course
from 8:00 in the morning
till 10:00 at night,
and so I was going down
the same path in the beginning.
Thank God she's too young to remember.
But, you know, Scientology, it's like,
you sacrifice everything,
money, time, your family, your careers,
- for this Bridge…
- Right.
And I hope that
we have explained to people,
don't waste your time.
- And thank you, Mom.
- Sure.
Listen, Mom, I know you have guilt,
'cause you have talked
to me about this.
She's Jewish. She has to have guilt.
Right, exactly.
Mom, I wouldn't be here without you.
Like, the whole thing
and getting me into Scientology…
Oh, you're gonna make me cry.
No, but I think
it was, like, for a purpose.
I look at all of our lives,
and I go… you know, we're all here now.
You have your amazing family intact.
You're now still helping people.
And you are.
And you're helping people
by doing this.
But, Mom, it's from you…
but had I not gotten into it,
I wouldn't be here now.
That's true.
I might have just been
an average person.