Deadly Cults (2019–…): Season 1, Episode 3 - Killers of Rulo - full transcript

James was looking

for something that would

make him more excited
about his life.

James was my friend.

We went together to a meeting.

Th-That's when we met Mike Ryan.

People in this country
have their religious beliefs.

I have mine.

They were looking

for a change.

Mike Ryan claimed that he had



the spirit of the archangel.

He could communicate
directly with God.

He was the type of person
that just could make you

almost believe everything.

We eventually

drank the Kool-Aid.

They started

their own cult.

That's when

all the real evil,
twisted stuff began.

It was like something out of

a horror movie.

There will be an Armageddon.

James Thimm
is my youngest brother.



He was just really easygoing.

He was just real fun,
and he loved us all to laugh.

We were very close,
going to the church

and doing church choir
together.

Beatrice

Mennonite Church has been
our home church always.

James and mine both,
and we both accepted Christ.

It's a pacifist church.

Mennonites don't believe
in war or violence.

We all thought James would be
a minister some day,

'cause he was so caring
and so calm.

He had more of

a spark about wanting
to read his Bible a little bit

and getting more
into the scriptures.

After a while, I noticed
James talking about this stuff,

and it was getting more radical.

He was kind of paranoid
about the end of times

and police officers.

We could just feel him
pulling away.

And so, then,
we didn't see him for a while.

He disappeared kind of.
We thought,

well, maybe when he gets ready,
he'll come back around,

but that wasn't to be.

Probably about August of '84, we
were sitting on the front porch,

and we noticed a big car
just pulling up and stopping.

So I went down
and see who it was.

Well, it was James
who was sitting

in the middle of the back,
and he had

real bloodshot eyes,
he was very thin.

He just did not look good.

He just said... I don't even
remember the words. It was just

like he was saying goodbye
without saying goodbye.

Nobody got out,
and they just drove off.

Then I told my husband, I said,

"I think I've seen James
for the last time.

I have the most awful feeling."

I was a young and relatively
new agent, having come on board

with the FBI in 1982.

Really had a little over three
years investigative experience.

I was given the responsibility
for Nebraska.

I was reading the newspaper,

and I see
this front-page article

about a farm at Rulo.

The people on this farm
were very reclusive.

Um, you know,
townspeople were kept away.

And the article reported
the group

at Rulo had amassed

a huge arsenal,
and the people reported hearing

the sounds of automatic gunfire

at all times
of the day or night.

So I-I made the trip
down to Rulo.

Rulo,

Nebraska is a small town
of about 400 people.

And it's a farming community.

Local law enforcement was
familiar with the group there.

The information they had
suggested to me

that the group might be
somehow connected

with extremist groups, because
they were attending meetings

of the Posse Comitatus.

The Posse Comitatus Act
of 1878 states

that the citizens
of the United States can,

bring forth their posse.

The Posse Comitatus-- they were

a loosely organized
paramilitary group.

They were white supremacists.

They were very much against
federal laws and rules.

They recruited farmers

who were vulnerable
and who had lost their farms.

In the 1980s,

many farmers found themselves

rapidly going into debt

and going bankrupt
and going through

what many people refer to
as "the farm crisis."

People who were

struggling and looking
for the reason why

were easily persuaded to buy in

to the Posse Comitatus
ideology.

Those who hate our God,

Jesus Christ,
are before us today.

Kill 'em all! Wipe 'em out!

There's a war coming.

It was a catastrophe
waiting to happen.

Mike Ryan was
an unemployed truck driver

who lived in Kansas

with his wife
and three young children.

He was not an educated man,

but he was an intelligent man.

Growing up with my dad--
you know,

you always wanted his approval,
no matter what you did.

He was strict,
but he was good with the boys.

He really was, at that point,
a good dad.

That was the whole basis
for living really,

you know, I mean, was to...

to make him happy.

'Cause he wasn't working.

It was tough.

There were times

we went without electric.

Dad was down on his luck,
you know, with...

with work and jobs, or whatever.
I mean, and

we obviously were scraping by.

I went to one of the meetings.

You've got
to understand, we're...

we're all to be born free
in this land

without dictates of government
against us.

It was based on

religion and anti-government.

It, for some reason,
drew Mike out.

The beliefs
of the Posse Comitatus

is rooted
in the Old Testament.

Well,

James Thimm was very religious,

and he fell prey to this.

It was a Posse Comitatus group
that believed

in a lot of the things
that James was believing in.

And so,
he and another young man,

David--
they had kind of been going

to these meetings.

James was my friend.

Families went back.

Way back.

James was a little younger
than David, but he was

at the house often.

They both were just
young men trying

to figure out what they wanted
to do with their lives.

James and I went together
to a Posse Comitatus meeting.

That's when

we met Mike Ryan.

He was talking about the...

corruption in the government.

Seemed to tie a lot
of things together.

They were listening
to what Mike said.

They were just,
looking for a change.

When Mike Ryan came along,

he took some
of the Posse Comitatus ideas,

but actually twisted them
into something

which was way off the charts.

Mike Ryan found a group
of young people and told them

to believe
they were God's chosen people.

One of the young men
owned a farm in

a little town called "Rulo."

His name was Rick Stice.

His wife

had just died of cancer,
and he had three small children.

He was down and out
financially,

and he made friends with these

other young men
and Mike Ryan.

And, it gave him
a sense of purpose,

just like it did
the other members

of the cult.

There were
about 14 individuals,

including David
and James Thimm.

And eventually, they all came
to live on Rick Stice's farm.

When they moved
to the Rulo farm,

they broke away
from the Posse Comitatus,

and they started
their own little cult.

And so, the move

consolidated the group.

It heightened their beliefs.

He just kept saying, you know,

God should be our main feature
in life.

And

there were classic cult dynamics
working at this farm.

For example,
they were all very isolated.

The women and kids
were over at the house.

The men

stayed over in the trailer.

According to Yahweh's law,

that was just the way
it was supposed to be.

It all seemed

so innocent.

It felt good

to be in that atmosphere.

It was kind of a fun time.

It was kind of like a family,
and...

And we spent hours upon

hours listening to

Bible studies where everybody
would get around,

and then,
Dad would be preaching to 'em.

Mike had charisma.

He was the type of person
that just could

make you believe everything.

One day, we all got together,
and Michael said that he had

heard from God, Yahweh,
that he was to be the prophet.

I don't think any of us really
ever questioned it, because

he could talk to Yahweh
through the arm,

and then, he showed us

how it was done.

The arm test went,

one person would hold out
their right arm.

Put your arm out like that,

and then, the other person
would ask a question.

And they'd push down on it.

If your arm stayed up,
then it was "yes."

If your arm fell,
then it was "no."

And honest,
you had no control over it.

It was just wonderful.

I said, "James, I know you.

"You cannot shoot other people.

If you think you can do it,
you are totally wrong."

I was 13. Dad said

I was gonna have
to kill my friend.

For Yahweh's people,
which is the name of "Yahweh,"

the-the only living God,
we have been staying out here.

I guess you could call it hiding
or in seclusion, whatever.

Other people in this country
have their religious beliefs.

I have mine.

I'd just as soon
they leave me alone with mine.

We read it
and interpret it our way.

Because Mike Ryan

could communicate
directly with God,

it consolidated the group.

It heightened their beliefs
in Yahweh.

It heightened their fears,
and he made them

believe they were
God's chosen people

to fight in the battle
of Armageddon,

a battle of the end-times.

At that time,

I did think that, Armageddon

was gonna happen.

We had the farm crisis
in the '80s.

It was imminent that things

were gonna collapse.

It was gonna be us

cleansing the earth
of all the...

nonwhites.

If you weren't white,
you could get on a boat

and go back
to where you came from,

or you can die--
that's gonna be your choice.

And one of these days
we're gonna have

to be holding our weapon

and defending our property
from everybody, you know?

We thought that
we were defending our...

our families.

We thought women
would be violated.

We're protecting the children.

We were...
protecting our country, too.

We thought
it was very personal.

I was 13.

What bothered me more
than anything about it was,

Dad said I was gonna have
to kill my friends.

I was crying and stuff.

He was holding an AR-15,

and he said that
I needed to quit crying,

let it all turn to hate.

And...

hate anybody
that didn't believe...

and not have any qualms
with killing them.

I don't think
I was ever the same after that.

I think that's when...

I became so full of hate
after that.

We had stockpiled some weapons

and ammunition.

You wanted to believe
that you'd survive,

because Yahweh
was gonna be with you.

I believed in Yahweh.

James was embracing it, too.

They were cut off

from friends and relatives,

who could have been
reality checks for them,

to say, "This is crazy.
What are you doing?"

The farm was chosen
was because it was secluded.

That's where we did
paramilitary type training,

which...

to me, was exhilarating.

I had a sense
of purpose, I guess.

I got to do
Yahweh's work now, you know.

This was Yahweh's plan for me.

And out of all of us,

there was not a person
out on that farm

that believed more deeply
in Yahweh

than James Thimm.

Those sermons

made James scared.

He had been in it
for about a year or so.

He just was so angry

all the time
and getting more radical.

He goes, "Well,
I'm loading bullets at night."

I said, "And what are you gonna
do with those bullets, James?"

He said,
"I'm gonna shoot people."

And I said, "James, I know you.
I know your soul.

You cannot shoot other people,
it's not in you," and I said,

"If you think you can do it,
you are totally wrong."

And that was pretty much

our last real conversation.

I was collecting

information about
possible criminal activity

being committed
by followers of the group

that lived there
on the farm in Rulo.

And frankly, it was...
it was not highly productive.

It was people telling me
what others had said or heard.

Not that they had
actually seen it.

I was investigating a lot
of the rumors in the community

about what was suspected
of going on at Rulo.

But the big thing was
the-the sounds

of the automatic gunfire,

and that there was
a huge arsenal there.

The owner of the farm at Rulo
was named Rick Stice.

And I was planning just to go

knock on the door
and introduce myself,

and see if he'd be willing
to talk to me.

I walk up to the gate,
and it was locked,

so I hollered out
and identified I was there.

And Mike Ryan himself
came down.

And I think I was aware,
if I recall,

that he was kind of viewed
as the leader of this group.

He met me at the gate
and asked me what I wanted.

And I said, "Well, you know,
would it be possible

"for you to put me in touch
with Rick?

I'd really like to visit
with him."

And the first thing he said was,

"I knew you'd be here today."

And I said, "Really?
And how did you know that?"

And he said, "Well," he said,
"earlier this morning,

"blackbirds flew over,
and that was Yahweh's

message to me that the FBI
was gonna be here today."

He told me he was
the archangel reincarnated,

and he was able to communicate
directly with God.

He was cordial.

He didn't answer any
of my questions.

I mean,
I knew something strange

was going on at Rulo, but
nobody knew for sure what.

One night, the FBI switchboard
called me at home

saying, "There is a man
on the phone,

"and he wants to talk to you.

He says his name is
Rick Stice,"

who was reported to be
the owner of the farm at Rulo.

And, of course,
I immediately said,

"Yes, patch that call
through to me."

And you could tell
from Rick's tone of voice

that there truly was
something bothering him.

He started telling me that,
as a result of Ryan

and the group there

moving onto the farm and,
in essence, taking over,

he feared for his own safety.

I was investigating a lot
of the rumors in the community

about what was suspected
of going on at Rulo

with this group that Mike Ryan
had become the leader of.

People reported hearing the
sounds of automatic gunfire

at all times of the day
or night.

One night, the FBI switchboard
called me at home and told me

a man was asking for me.

It was Rick Stice, the owner

of the farm at Rulo.

I said, "I definitely will
take that call."

He started telling me that, as
a result of Ryan and the group

moving onto the farm and,
in essence,

taking over, that he really
feared for his own safety.

He said Mike Ryan had
unique powers.

He claimed that he had
the spirit of the archangel.

You know, the archangel
being Michael.

It was obvious that Rick Stice
believed all of these things.

And I told him,

"I would like to
get together with you

to meet you and have you tell me
everything that's going on."

He said, "Well,
let me think about it,

because it would be dangerous
for me to do that."

And he basically ended
the conversation.

There's always
the concern that,

that somebody won't
call you back,

and I wasn't sure
what would happen with Rick.

I seem to remember
a meeting or something

taking place about Dad saying
that,

"From this day forward,

"if you're with Yahweh,
and you doubt Yahweh,

"there's gonna be
a harsh punishment.

If you're not with Yahweh,
you can leave right now."

And, of course, nobody left.

At that point, everybody did

what they were told to do.

Dad talked to God
in the morning to figure out

who was doing what.

And you'd either pull
guard duty,

you helped with the...
with the kids,

you kept the barracks clean,
or whatever.

I mean, it all depended what
Yahweh wanted you to do.

If you didn't please Yahweh,

then your punishment
came through Dad.

It seemed to me like
somebody was always

having to fast or repent
for something.

No food, you know, five days.

It happened all the time.

There were four or five women
in the cult.

At one point, Rick Stice,
who had lost his young wife

to cancer, was married to Lisa,
on the farm,

and Mike Ryan performed
the ceremony.

The restriction
that Mike put on

when he married
Lisa and Rick was

they could sleep together,
but not have sex.

Rick was told that they
can't consummate the marriage

until Yahweh says so.

A few months later,
Lisa turns up pregnant,

and Mike Ryan flew into a rage.

After that...

that's when things got serious.

I mean, as far as...

people dying were set in motion
when that happened.

Nobody's above Yahweh's law,

and Dad just come unglued

and just beat the crap
out of him.

Rick was completely
freaked out.

He was terrified.

I mean, you could see
he was terrified of Dad.

Terrified.
So I'm sitting here thinking

Yahweh's gonna have Rick killed,
you know?

Rick Stice was
eventually chained to the porch

of the farmhouse that he owned,

forced to sleep outside
in the cold,

um, because he had
fallen from favor with Yahweh.

Yahweh divorced him,

and Rick's, like,
in big trouble.

I mean, he got demoted to slave.

It went downhill after that.
I mean, just, you know.

Rick was told, you know,
that he was supposed to

have sex with this goat,
or whatever,

or be shot.

And Rick went out and got a goat
and had sex with it.

That's what Yahweh want.

You want to be in good graces
with Yahweh.

I never heard anybody
question anything.

And then Mike also
started believing

that other members of the cult
were having bad thoughts,

and he would start
punishing them,

physically beating them.

And he-he was a big man.

And they were afraid of him.

Honest to God, I did think
about trying to leave,

because I was afraid of Mike,

but there was no way
I would tell anybody

how I was feeling.

Because then, if it would
get back to Mike,

really been in trouble.

By that point, I felt like
I had pretty much lost Dennis.

Dennis was so into his control.

I feel like I'm betraying Dennis
when I say that,

but it's-it's not his fault.

He was, you know--
he was just a young kid.

He was a young kid
looking up to his dad.

One time, when Mike Ryan was--

he left for several days.
Dennis was in charge.

They had me and James
running up and downhill,

getting exhausted.

They weren't going
up the hill fast enough.

'Cause I remember hitting 'em
and pushing 'em and kicking 'em.

I think I just became mean.

I know I was mean
to the other guys.

I'd have done anything.
Wouldn't have mattered.

If Dad said it's what Yahweh
want... it's done.

After Rick initially
called me at home,

it may have been
within a week or so,

I get another phone call,

and it was Rick Stice.

Of course, I immediately
took the call.

And Rick said,
"I'm willing to meet you."

He says, "I-I-I'm, you know,
really afraid."

I asked him, can you say why?

And he refused to say.

I don't think anybody
could have imagined

the nature
of the horrific crimes

that had been committed
on the farm.

The, first meeting

with Rick Stice,
he started telling us

about beatings that occurred.

He talked about how he,
himself,

ended up being demoted,

literally, to the-the absolute
bottom of the hierarchy.

And being abused like an animal.

Conflict started in the cult

between Mike Ryan
and Rick Stice.

So at one point,

Rick Stice left.

He left the farm,
he-he sneaked away.

He starts telling the FBI
what he knows,

and what has been going on
at the farm.

Mike Ryan instructed them
to go steal things.

Rick Stice started telling us

about thefts of farm equipment,
thefts of livestock.

They did a tremendous
amount of stealing

of cattle, food,

to stockpile for the battle
of Armageddon.

I sat down with, Rick,

and had him outline
every single theft

to develop evidence

that they had stolen livestock

and transported it interstate,

and that is a federal crime.

And that's what we needed
to be able to prove.

It defies logic
and it defies explanation

but his children were still
on the farm.

The entire family
was-was pulled

into this religious cult.

They had bought into
the belief system enough

that, you know, they would burn
in Hell if they left,

so they really were between
a rock and a hard place.

At first, all the kids stayed

with us, you know,
with the women.

Rick's youngest little boy
was Luke.

Poor little guy,

it seemed like every time
he turned around,

he was just getting
into trouble.

I just thought

"What could a little boy do?"

And then he was there one day,

and then the next day
he was gone.

He was no longer with us.

I later talked
to Mike's wife, Ruth,

and she said, "I'm not surprised
that Mike could hurt an adult.

But I never thought
he would hurt a child."

Rick was so far
under this belief

and so afraid of Ryan,

he was simply powerless.

And the result
of that powerlessness

was the tragic murder
of his son.

I embarked upon
a- a very intense investigation

to try to corroborate all the
information about the thefts.

The original plan
was to apply for,

and get a search warrant to
look for the stolen property.

But once again, Rick called.

That completely changed
our plan.

Rick had escaped and was not
going to return,

because he feared
for his own safety.

And the description of what
was going on was so horrific,

it was almost surreal.

And Rick just suddenly
blurts out, "Luke is dead."

It was like something out
of a-a horror movie.

I mean, th-the abuses that were
inflicted were so cruel

and-and not something that,

an average person
would even think of.

And I remember vividly,
one day back at the office,

and one of the, women
in the steno-steno pool,

actually...
came to me almost in tears,

'cause she'd been typing
this stuff.

So it-it was very difficult,
very difficult for everybody.

This new information certainly
does take this investigation

to a whole nother level.

Initially, we were focusing
on illegal weapons,

theft of property,

and all of a sudden, we realize
we're dealing with a homicide.

Rick ended up taking off
in the middle of the night.

I had no idea where Rick was.

To my knowledge,
nobody else did, either.

Rick had taken
a chance of leaving.

You don't do that.
You don't do that.

Dad, obviously,

felt like he was losing grip,
losing control.

He had to do something.

What Dad told me,

said that Jim Thimm was
gonna be punished

for his transgressions.

I mean, that man believed,

heart and soul, in Yahweh.

He never, he didn't--
he never had any doubts.

Dad just used him
as a scapegoat.

Dad just chose him

because he was probably
the weakest person out there.

Tried to talk James into

leaving, and he refused.

He said,
"Yahweh wants me to be here."

If they had at least
gotten out of there,

that would've been,
better for everybody.

So he's taken out there
and he was chained up

in the hog shed.
Then the next day...

...that's when
all the real evil,

twisted stuff began.

Mike Ryan was not
educated in any way

about the dynamics of
mind control and how cults work.

But there were classic cult
dynamics working at this farm.

I don't doubt that Mike Ryan

could've committed
these heinous acts,

but the other young men
on the farm,

I went to high school
with people like this.

They were good,
upstanding farm people.

It's that power
of the groupthink.

What Dad told me

was that Yahweh is going to test

James Thimm.

Ryan had James chained

in the hog shed.

Dad told everybody
that it was...

said it was time to punish him.

That's when all the real evil,
twisted stuff began.

Dad started the,

interrogation stuff.

He's telling Jim Thimm that,
"You've been captured

by Satan's people."

Then he was strung up.

We all took turns
kicking him and hitting him

with the bullwhip.

Dad took...

just, like, a regular
razor blade, and,

took a piece of his skin off.

I felt, powerless

for James.

It was supposedly,

Yahweh's will.

They had been stomping
on his chest or something.

Dad kept trying
to get him to,

denounce Yahweh,
and he would never do it.

And each of us took a turn
shooting a finger,

tip of a finger
with a.22 pistol.

He constantly asked Yahweh
for forgiveness.

Never once turned against him,
no matter what, what was done.

Breaking down, I was

emotionally, shot out.

I mean, I was, I was crying,
I couldn't handle it.

Ryan sent me out.

It's so hard to comprehend,

because Jim Thimm was in, like,
a whole bunch of pain.

The whole time,
asking for forgiveness,

from the God killing him.

I mean, I just...

I just can't, I just--
I'll never forgot that.

And then they,
you know, they-they...

come out and said,

James was dead.

"James is dead."

You could just--
can't even believe it's true.

And by people that love him.

'Cause David loved James.

I know he did.

None of the women were there.

I mean, we were
all in the house.

And Mike came up
and said that Jim had died.

It wasn't right.
And I knew it wasn't right.

God wouldn't have wanted that.

I was, like,
scared to say anything,

knowing what he was
capable of doing.

I'm a coward, what can I say?

That's the way I was back then.

It was just a horrible time.

Dad said that I wasn't
responsible for what happened,

because God did it.
Yahweh did that.

Yahweh took his anger
and directed it through me

to punish Jim Thimm.

And so, of course, that made me
feel really, really proud,

because Yahweh's using me.

And that was it. I'd never give
him another thought.

Just like that,
I completely forgot about him.

I picked up the sprayer.

Taking it back to the farm
and,

down the road
at 2:00 in the morning.

Rick told us the full story

of, again,
the abuse that had occurred

and the horrific things
that had been happening

and how Luke died,

so I flew up to Omaha,
and got the warrant.

Flew back. So, based on that,

we were able to obtain
a search warrant

to go search
for the body of Luke Stice.

And the original plan

was to have Rick, come down
to the farm and show us

where he had been forced
to bury his own son.

However, as soon as word came

that, two members
of the group

that lived there on the farm
in Rulo were arrested,

the Nebraska State Patrol

got ahold of me,
and basically said,

"David and Jimmy
are ready to talk,

but you got to get here
right away."

Once we started,

talking to each other,

we really had, intense anger

with, Ryan.

'Cause he...

he...

he murdered our friend.

And-and he, dirtied us by...

by...

by making us, participate.

It...

It-it was...

very devastating.

This was the first time we had

anybody tell us
that James Thimm was dead.

It was shocking, in fact,

that there was
a second homicide,

but there was also

an immediate feeling of elation
because we knew we had him now.

We were on the cusp

of being able
to arrest Mike Ryan.

But the group at Rulo

had amassed a huge arsenal.

We were very concerned
about the danger

he might pose.

We were very concerned

about resistance
from the entire group

were we to,
try to arrest Ryan

at his home or on the farm there
at the compound.

The Nebraska State Patrol

got ahold of me
and basically said,

"We got to stop everything.

"You got to get here
right away.

"David and Jimmy,
are ready to talk.

Um, they know where
James Thimm's body is."

This was the first time

we had anybody tell us
that James Thimm

was dead.

We were on the cusp
of being able

to arrest Mike Ryan.

But the group at Rulo
had amassed,

a huge arsenal.

We were very concerned
about resistance

from the entire group
were we to, try

to arrest Ryan at his home

or on the farm there
at the compound.

We had to get him away
from everybody else

and then hopefully gain their
cooperation once they realized

that Mike Ryan was no longer
in a position to harm them.

So we developed a strategy
of trying to get Mike Ryan

into town

to the sheriff's office
on a ruse.

And a-a local sheriff

went out to the farm

and just acted
like he was Mike Ryan's buddy.

And he said, "Mike,
there are some Feds in town,

and they want to talk to you."

He emphasized,

"Hey, this is not a big deal.

"It's just a paperwork thing,

but if we don't get it fixed,
it might be a problem."

And he said,
"I figure it'd be better

"for you to come in
and talk to them

than having them out here."

And Mike's, response was,

"You'll bring me back,
won't you?"

Mike Ryan

walked into the courthouse.

They opened the door,

and here was a room full
of State Patrol,

FBI agents, local police,

at which point he knew

the gig was up.

We were all in the house.

All of us women were talking.

And then the next thing we know,

heard this helicopter.

I remember them cars going
over the top of that hill,

they were deep.

And they're out there,
they're everywhere.

And so then they busted open
the door and they see

all these guns pulled, all of a
sudden the guns come all out.

And they arrested me for first
degree murder right away.

I think right in here.Yeah.

Somewhere...
somewhere around here.

When we, when we
finally found the bodies,

it was very quiet, there
wasn't-wasn't a lot of talk.

The feelings that we all felt

were a combination

of relief, on one hand.

Also it was very somber and
very sad and very difficult.

With the exception
of Rick Stice

knowing about Luke,

no one else
in their families knew

the homicides
had even been committed.

And no one--
there were no bodies.

Until now.

Some things you can't change.

A lot of guilt.

Anger.

I wish somebody
would have just...

pulled us out.

I- I wanted to be rescued.

But... no-nobody rescued me.

After everybody was arrested,

I believe it might have been

the next day
is when Mike called.

And I asked, "You are gonna
take care of Dennis, right?

You know,
you're gonna protect him?"

But he didn't.

Mike pretty much
just put all the blame off

on Dennis
and the other guys, you know.

I didn't understand
anything that was going on.

'Cause these are Satan's people,

I don't need to be
dealing with them, you know?

You know, I just wanted
Yahweh to get me out of here.

I found out during the trial

the part that Dennis played
in James's death.

It just broke my heart.

You know, it just...

that he...

he was drawn into something
that could make him...

do something like that,

and will have to live with
for the rest of his life.

'Cause Mom and Dad said,

"We're getting into this belief

and this is the right way
because God says it's right."

I'll never get over that guilt.

Any mother that doesn't try
to help their sons...

When I was in the county jail,

I was finally around
people besides my dad.

I think what probably
consumed my mind

was, "How could
my dad do that to me?

"How could he lie to me
like that?

How could he... how could he
get me to do that?"

I was just all screwed up.

And it took a long time

to quit hating.

Even after. You know?

And...

and trying to learn...

some-some other emotion
besides hate.

I'll never forgive myself
for what I did.

When I think about

the unspeakable cruelty,

how it all...

occurred, basically,
because of...

Mike Ryan's twisted ideology,

very shocking.

At the center was James

and little Luke Stice.

Maybe little Luke would be
grown up by now.

These cults are dangerous.

And if we haven't learned
the lesson with James,

there'll be other Jameses.
There'll be other little Lukes.

Wasn't that enough?