The World's Most Dangerous Show with Joko Winterscheidt (2023–…): Season 1, Episode 6 - S1E6 - full transcript
"IF YOUR ECONOMY REQUIRES PEOPLE
CONSUME THINGS THEY DON'T NEED OR WANT
"AND DO MORE OF IT EACH YEAR JUST TO KEEP
THE WHOLE EDIFICE FROM COLLAPSING
"THEN YOU NEED A DIFFERENT ECONOMY."
JASON HICKEL
At the end of my trip, I should be
in good spirits.
But have I achieved what I wanted?
And what did I want?
Maybe just to create awareness
of how close we are to catastrophe.
And that we can still turn things around.
Get the man-made catastrophe under control
by making clever decisions.
But what use are the fantastic ideas
of all these smart people I've met
when so far, I've avoided
the biggest elephant in the room?
Can we even implement meaningful solutions
to the climate crisis
if the root of all our problems is
the foundation of our modern life?
I'm talking, of course,
about capitalism. About growth.
About our entire system.
Do I have to question everything, now?
How fucked are we?
Pretty fucked.
I'm right back at the beginning.
The climate crisis is
a big market failure.
Infinite growth is the logic
of a cancer cell.
This is not normal.
Does capitalism prevent us
from saving our climate?
-I'm just completely messed up.
-Yes.
But by what?
By the system.
The revolution begins.
SYSTEM CHANGE NOW?
How and where is climate protection
prevented by capitalism?
I'm looking for an answer
to this question in doomed a place.
Lützerath.
Lützerath was a village in my home
of North Rhine-Westphalia.
Today, in the summer of 2022,
only little bit of it remains.
A little bit that is strongly contested.
The energy giant RWE wants
the coal under the houses.
The people want to stop the company
and save their homeland from destruction.
Where do we get in?
To the left, right, or straight ahead?
Straight ahead.
I want to protest
and don't even know the way.
Straight ahead, of course.
-I just wanted to know if you knew.
-Great.
Today there is a protest
around the cleared town of Lützerath.
The police cordoned off a wide area.
Please let the vehicle through.
We have to walk the last few kilometers.
I haven't been to many protests
and I'm amazed by how long the walk is.
Coming to this place
touches me emotionally.
I grew up very close by.
I knew there were pits,
even though I'd never been there.
But for everyone around here,
mining always meant work
and a warm living room.
Everyone watched
as the bucket wheel excavators were moved
from Garzweiler I to Garzweiler II.
It was a spectacle.
The largest excavators in the world
in our area.
I didn't realize
what they dug up until later.
Brown coal.
The dirtiest and most problematic
source of energy there is.
But, whatever.
It provided jobs
and kept the house warm, right?
And compulsory purchase orders, evictions.
Those happen here, too.
The mine was getting closer.
All of a sudden, houses disappeared,
the hospital in Immerath
where my husband was born,
-and where he went to school.
-Sick.
Suddenly, it was gone.
Did you always know
there had to be change,
or was it because you live
close to this hole
that you noticed something was wrong?
It was shortly before they demolished
the cathedral here in Immerath.
It's a scandal!
But the protestors here are
not just trying to save their homeland.
They care about the big picture.
If we here in Germany,
in our super privileged situation,
don't stop this opencast mine,
which is so unfair,
then it's over for 1.5 degrees Celsius.
1.5 DEGREES CELSIUS LIMIT
There is a 400-meter-deep hole here,
that has been dug
into some of Germany's best farmland.
In places like this, it becomes clear
how much we need systemic change.
NOT A DEGREE
MORE
On the signs I read "Seize RWE"
and other fundamental criticisms
of capitalism.
But what does that mean? What is the goal?
Capitalism is, above all,
the basis of our economy. And our growth.
Joko, my dear.
You talk about capitalism
and economic growth,
but you don't really know what they are.
I'll explain.
MR. CAPITALISM EXPLAINS
"CAPITALISM"
We all want prosperity, right?
Good. But how do we get it?
By making sure our GDP grows.
Our gross domestic product.
Put another way,
it's when all individuals and companies
work diligently
to provide services
and manufacture products
that can also be sold properly and...
And do so every year
more than in the previous year.
And now it gets interesting.
If companies produce more every year,
they also have to hire more people
who then earn money
with which they can buy things.
So economic growth brings benefits
and prosperity to all of us.
And now, people are turning around
and saying
that for everything to keep growing,
people and raw materials are exploited.
For that, you need cheap energy
from gas and coal.
As a result, the atmosphere heats up
and is gets polluted.
My goodness!
You can't make an omelette
without breaking a few legs.
Eggs.
"COAL MINING IN THE ENERGY CRISIS
LÜTZERATH WITH NOT BE SAVED"
"LÜTZERATH: EXCAVATE FIRST,
FOSSIL FUEL-FREE SECOND"
"LÜTZERATH: THE VILLAGE
THAT HAD TO MAKE WAY FOR COAL"
Now, RWE and North Rhine-Westphalia
have agreed
to phase out coal production by 2030,
eight years earlier than planned.
How much change
that will bring is unclear.
Because of the energy crisis,
more coal will be burned first.
Nothing will change for Lützerath.
The village was cleared
by the police early in 2023.
The village had to give way for the coal
that we need until we drop fossil fuels.
Experts criticized this.
Because if we burn this coal,
we would break the 1.5-degree limit.
To supply Germany with energy,
Lützerath could have remained,
since active opencast mines
still have enough coal left.
But opinions differ on this point.
It's awful that I must watch
as my future is just excavated away.
What's happening is not climate justice.
The climate crisis is a problem
for all people, young and old.
The climate crisis is
an existential crisis.
Don't we want to live in a world
where we mainly care about people's needs
and not about the creation of money?
OVER 300 VILLAGES DESTROYED IN 30 YEARS
It's true.
We live in a system
where the creation of money is paramount.
For cheap energy, for example,
we accept great destruction.
But systemic change?
How does that work?
And how radical can it be?
I'm meeting an old friend
who has a clear stance on this.
You've met her in another episode.
Luisa Neubauer is a climate activist
and she is angry.
How can it be that coal companies,
who all have sustainability goals,
who love climate protection,
are allowed to dispossess people?
How can they continue excavating
like there's no tomorrow?
Who actually has what rights here?
I see people who aren't losing
their faith in people,
but rather in the fossil fuel system.
That's good,
because it doesn't work anymore.
We have to differentiate
between an individual and a system.
And a lot of this fossil fuel life,
this fossil fuel madness and consumption,
is a system.
Let's stop for a moment.
We live in a fossil fuel system.
That means everything only works
because we dig up
cheap fossil fuels, burn them,
and use them to produce as much energy
as possible, as cheaply as possible,
so that the economy grows,
so everyone has work,
and so there's food on the table.
And well, prosperity.
If we really want
to turn this around for real,
then we have to get to the root
of the problem.
You have to look at systemic change,
because it's needed.
But isn't that the craziest thing
when we now say we want to change a system
that we've created over decades?
Perhaps we need to briefly discuss
what is meant by system.
-It's not about one system.
-Yes.
It's about a lot of small systems
that are calibrated the wrong way around.
For example, the road system.
Who is where? Who has priority?
Humans or machines?
People or the profit mentality
of the car companies?
And then you change it.
You create space for people
instead of more parking.
Then you create clean air,
since we're sick
because of all the traffic.
We see these systems everywhere.
But what would be an alternative
to our form of capitalism?
Is our standard of living,
which is based on growth,
automatically at odds with the well-being
of both people and nature?
Capitalism brings us prosperity.
But only if we all consume more and more.
And we do.
Me, too.
A little more every year.
And a little more the next year.
We know how much we spend, yes.
But do we know the true price?
Every click, every purchase,
everything we do has consequences.
Here and elsewhere in the world.
Whether we like it or not.
Our behavior sets off a chain reaction
that goes around the world.
Billions of chain reactions.
And most of them are bad.
We know that and we still buy.
Just like that, on and on.
Does our consumption
automatically lead to doom?
I'm calling a woman
who wonders about this, too.
Kara Hurst is Amazon's
Chief Sustainability Officer.
Yes, Amazon.
Shipping world champions and the platform
on which you're watching this.
Amazon wants to be carbon neutral by 2040.
It also wants to be a role model
for other global players.
With the Climate Pledge,
there has been a self-binding agreement
on climate protection since 2019,
which over 370 companies have now signed.
Does that change anything?
Are they taking this seriously?
That all sounds plausible at first.
If you actually manage
to go completely renewable
and do it quickly,
then that would be the straw to clutch at.
A beautiful utopia.
Consumption and growth
without consequences for the environment.
I love growth.
There can never be enough growth.
The problem with growth
isn't growth itself, at least for me.
But in the long run, how should I put it,
the planet will be all used up.
Everything is very simple.
We won't get the cheap energy that we need
for our growth from fossil fuels
but from renewable sources.
Water, wind, sun.
Raw materials can be extracted
using organic standards.
I've always said,
"More glass instead of plastic."
It's not all that difficult.
Glass.
So, leave it all to good old capitalism.
"Green growth" is what we call it today.
It sounds so healthy.
You wanna have a huge slice
of that big green cake?
And please don't ask if it all works.
Just chill.
The market takes care of that.
So, is it really possible
to create a new kind of growth
that works within the existing system?
One that not only maintains prosperity,
but promotes it?
Green capitalism, if you will?
Is that the easy solution?
That would be an encouraging thought.
I'm meeting the man
who sort of invented it.
Vinod Khosla is
a businessman and billionaire.
As a kind of super eco-capitalist,
he invested in the development
of environmental technologies for decades.
And he firmly believes
that green growth can save us all.
So, there is hope. There is a plan.
And the great thing is
that decision-makers in business
and politics agree.
Green growth will save us.
We're creating a sustainable capitalism
that pulls the necessary emergency brake
before the catastrophe at the last second.
Because now everyone gets it.
The fuel of our system,
cheap energy, is going green.
We rely on e-mobility, we produce cleanly,
and actually consume for a better world.
Working with nature.
Green growth. That's the answer.
We will continue to grow,
only this time green.
All's well that ends well.
It was actually good, wasn't it?
So I'm really happy
that in the end,
we actually found this green growth.
From my point of view, it's an illusion.
True, everyone talks about green growth.
But that doesn't mean
that there is green growth.
Ulrike Herrmann is an economic journalist
and author of several books on capitalism.
She is familiar
with the studies on green growth
and says that it would not be possible.
I'm right back at the beginning.
Why doesn't it work?
The idea of green growth is
that everything stays the same.
You only change the technology.
And what is completely ignored,
and I find this really fascinating,
especially in Silicon Valley,
is how much time technology needs
to become market-ready.
If we want to get climate protection
under control,
then we must do it
with the technology we have now.
Today's climate-friendly technology
is great.
But obviously, there are
a number of pitfalls, too.
Let's take the car.
So, the individual engines are
much more efficient these days.
But this did not result in a reduction
in the use of gas and diesel.
Instead, horsepower was simply increased.
A small car today only needs
three liters per 100 kilometers.
But people don't have
these small cars anymore,
they have a lot of SUVs instead.
Two tons of car drive around the city
to transport a single person.
That happens because
of the rebound effect.
MR. CAPITALISM EXPLAINS
I got rid of it.
For my conscience
"THE REBOUND EFFECT"
and the environment.
Instead, I bought myself
a cute electric car.
Because I save
so much CO2 with it, I thought,
"Why don't I buy a second one?
"And a third one?"
It's all climate-neutral.
One for the morning,
one for midday, one for the evening.
For our planet.
And that's what nerds call
the rebound effect.
Spend what you saved somewhere else.
Does it make sense? No.
Is it fun?
Yes!
If we immediately blow what we saved,
does that mean
that green growth is really nonsense?
If you take a look, what energy
can you produce in a climate-neutral way?
There are only two things.
Wind energy and solar energy.
It quickly becomes clear, however,
that you can't produce all the energy
you need for capitalism with it.
So, there are a lot of studies in Germany
looking into what it would be enough for.
Then we realize
a maximum of half of our cars
would stay on the road.
It's not enough energy
for the chemical industry.
We couldn't use up any more space.
New construction would have to be limited.
And so on.
You can also see very clearly
that green growth won't work.
Maybe I'm the idiot here, now.
But green growth
and capitalism don't go together?
Nope.
So, don't misunderstand me,
capitalism was a really great system.
It was the first system in human history
that produced growth and prosperity.
The only problem with this super system is
that you can't grow infinitely
in a finite world.
Now you have a problem when capitalism,
the system in which we live,
immediately goes into crisis
if there is permanent contraction.
That means there won't actually be
any form of green capitalism, either?
No.
You actually have to change
the entire system in one fell swoop.
And that can only be done
through politics.
So this puts the idea
of green growth into question again.
It's supported by evidence.
But what about politics
and green growth in general?
Can we reform the system from within
without putting it into question?
I'll ask the person responsible for it.
Economics and Climate Minister
Robert Habeck.
People used to look at this building
for the last 10 years and say,
"It's better if you don't do anything.
"You're good economic ministers
if you stay out of everything."
Those days are over.
The same goes for business.
Talking to CEOs, they say,
"We need political support.
"We need laws, frameworks."
-They want that?
-They do.
In this respect, there is a willingness.
But above all, there is
a change in attitude towards politics.
They now want political action again.
So now, we put the rules in place
that create ecological progress
and better climate tools
for a more successful economic model.
So, green growth works,
but politicians have to steer it.
Why should this be possible now,
when the market has always
refused to do it?
The climate crisis is
a big market failure.
Obviously, fossil fuel energies
and the burning of fuels were required
and successful for the market economy,
but also got us into this mess.
So, what's the answer?
Stick with the creativity,
and thus to the market,
but implement controls.
Introduce a very formative,
very self-confident politics
to represent society.
Ensure that markets serve the interests
of society and not their own interests.
And then we talk about a transformation
of the market economy.
On the one hand,
we must contract to save humanity.
On the other, we mustn't contract
because our economic system will collapse.
And with it, life as we know it.
Which means we can throw
most of the ideas
that I have encountered in the trash.
All of it only works
in a system of perpetual growth.
Then it doesn't matter
whether it's green or not.
You think there's a solution,
then someone else comes along
and disagrees.
Infinite growth is the logic
of a cancer cell.
Nothing can grow permanently.
The worst part is
everyone seems to be right.
Is there no solution at all?
Everything I've found out,
isn't it enough?
Do we try to get the social, ecological,
and economic catastrophe under control
using cosmetic repairs?
Those who know how can't do it.
The climate crisis is
a big market failure.
And those who do it know how?
But we can't do it?
Capitalism has a growth imperative.
Despite knowing how...
I'm going nuts. I'm going crazy.
Maybe I'm already crazy.
Nothing makes sense at all.
If I hadn't known what I know now,
I would have had 20 super relaxed years
ahead of me.
I still have 11 minutes of airtime
and I don't know how we're going
to get out of this mess.
God...
And cut!
Thanks. Let's get ready
for the hopeful ending!
-Wait! Where am I supposed to go?
-Just keep the camera on him.
Through that door, Joko.
I stay on Joko.
-You stay on Joko?
-Yes.
-Yes.
-Okay.
Rolling.
And...
Three, two, one.
All rolling.
THE HOPEFUL
END
Joko.
Professor Kemfert.
Professor Claudia Kemfert is
the top economist in Germany.
On talk shows and podcasts,
she talks about solutions
and is like a beacon
at the end of the world.
-Sit down. You look pale.
-Yes.
Where do you want me to start?
How fucked are we?
Pretty fucked.
As we sit here, the world is dying.
We can talk about it,
but there isn't one solution,
though there are lots of theories.
So, there's no proof
that what people come up with will work.
And no matter how many people I've met,
as I'm representing
the people watching, I'm at a point
where I'm really terrified
that we're screwing up.
That's normal,
because there's no single answer.
There are a lot of complicated things
that we have to do.
There are solutions, that's the good news,
and we can do something.
How does that work?
What we need is basically a revolution.
Why is Professor Kemfert so hopeful?
Come with me. I'll show you.
Look at these two pictures.
This is Fifth Avenue around 1900.
-This is 13 years later.
-Okay.
Do you see the difference?
These are all horse-drawn carriages.
-That's actually a developed road.
-Exactly.
What happened around 1900
on New York's main road, Fifth Avenue,
was a minor revolution.
In just 13 years, the road was resurfaced
and the horses were gone.
The car superseded the horse
at lightning speed.
From today's perspective,
the engine thing was counterproductive.
But the good news is
that a lot can change in just a few years.
If everyone joins in.
Professor Kemfert is promoting
bold changes.
For example, converting our cities.
It will change drastically.
We know that we have
far too many cars on the road.
It's all about traffic prevention,
optimizing and shifting traffic.
A lot more bike lanes,
a lot more pedestrians.
The humane city will be
the city of the future.
Humane cities?
It sounds absurd, but it's possible.
I've experienced it myself on my trip.
In Copenhagen.
The city of the future is resilient.
It's small, it's decentralized,
it's green.
We also use urban farming on the roofs.
I also stood in a roof garden
while on my journey.
It's about architecture having to change.
Everything here, it's not rocket science.
It's all already here in some way.
The rooftop wind turbine
already exists today.
The solar energy systems too, but then
maybe they can also be on walls.
The facade then produces
the energy that we use there.
Could it be possible
-to develop a color...
-Already here.
-It exists?
-Of course.
There are inventions in the world
that knock your socks off. They're crazy.
I've seen a few myself.
Since many are too expensive
to make profit, they aren't even sold.
The question remains.
What are we going to do about growth?
The growth we have at the moment
is detrimental.
That things are leading to waste now,
to overexploitation, to climate change,
that has to be stopped.
Our biggest concerns are climate change
and the destruction of the planet.
Anything we can do
to avoid them will help.
No matter what,
that's the main thing at stake here.
Being excited to be part of the solution.
We are not responsible
for to changing everything,
but we can set things in motion.
Each of us can do a small part.
These are collective processes.
Each of us needs to start rethinking.
If we really care about our future,
and we should,
then we really have to change something.
It's not about whether "that"
can still be done,
"That" doesn't exist.
We must care about
every tenth of a degree,
for every ecosystem, every species,
for every piece of land
that is still intact,
for every bit of climate stability
that we can get.
We have to fight for it.
This waste,
this exploitation of the planet,
it can't go on like this.
And the way out
is a combination of everything.
We're human. We live, talk,
and work with each other.
There isn't one single way we can go,
but there are some things
we can all do together.
And the more we do, the better.
I'll try to summarize everything
that's still on my mind.
What was my aim
when I started this journey?
I would say
that I wanted to generate hope.
Is hope a luxury
that we simply have to let ourselves have
because there's no other way?
Am I really convinced
that this hope isn't just empty words?
Let's be honest.
Despite all the people and ideas,
and there are some badass people,
no matter how small
or how big the opportunities,
these were really incredible initiatives.
It's not enough.
Nothing is enough.
For every good example,
there are a number of bitter realities
that shatter it all.
You defeat one evil
only to be faced with 1,000 more.
And it wasn't clear to any of us
at the beginning that this would happen.
We really believed
we could show you solutions here.
I've never slept as badly as I have
since I started this project.
I wish I could stop thinking about it.
And it wasn't just me, it was everyone.
We saw a world we thought sucked,
but we didn't think it sucked this much.
The climate is completely out of balance.
We don't have to look to the future
to see the climate crisis coming.
We're in it, already.
There's a 1.5-degree target for the planet
to remain reasonably habitable.
We will still go beyond it
within this decade.
Only one thing will help.
We have to get off fossil fuels.
There's no other way.
We're all just lying to ourselves.
Industry has a much greater impact
on all of this than you and I,
but we all benefited from this system
that industry put in front of us.
As individuals, climate change
is not our fault.
Somehow that's not true.
Because we only have
a manageable influence
through our personal consumer behavior.
But we contributed
to the situation we're in now.
We have the power
and also the responsibility
to change the way we think.
Not just young people with their fears,
but above all people like you and me.
People in their 40s
who in some way have influence on society.
We have a responsibility.
We can ensure that people in politics act.
Only they can really change things.
They must do that, because it's their job.
We can ensure that normal society
in all its facets stays on the ball.
Despair cannot be an option.
Not an option. We can take opportunities
that already exist. We have to use them.
Maybe you don't want to hear it anymore.
"If you do this, if you do that, then..."
Yes, sure, it doesn't feel that great.
But this is how it is.
Our collective effort can make possible
the needed systemic revolution
in big and small ways.
You ask me, "Are we screwed?"
Yes, I think we are screwed.
I don't know if we can escape this.
That's my opinion.
I have maybe 40 years left on this planet.
I can make them nice for myself.
But after that, there could be
no future left.
We are responsible for ensuring
that there is a future
for those who come after us.
Bye.
CONSUME THINGS THEY DON'T NEED OR WANT
"AND DO MORE OF IT EACH YEAR JUST TO KEEP
THE WHOLE EDIFICE FROM COLLAPSING
"THEN YOU NEED A DIFFERENT ECONOMY."
JASON HICKEL
At the end of my trip, I should be
in good spirits.
But have I achieved what I wanted?
And what did I want?
Maybe just to create awareness
of how close we are to catastrophe.
And that we can still turn things around.
Get the man-made catastrophe under control
by making clever decisions.
But what use are the fantastic ideas
of all these smart people I've met
when so far, I've avoided
the biggest elephant in the room?
Can we even implement meaningful solutions
to the climate crisis
if the root of all our problems is
the foundation of our modern life?
I'm talking, of course,
about capitalism. About growth.
About our entire system.
Do I have to question everything, now?
How fucked are we?
Pretty fucked.
I'm right back at the beginning.
The climate crisis is
a big market failure.
Infinite growth is the logic
of a cancer cell.
This is not normal.
Does capitalism prevent us
from saving our climate?
-I'm just completely messed up.
-Yes.
But by what?
By the system.
The revolution begins.
SYSTEM CHANGE NOW?
How and where is climate protection
prevented by capitalism?
I'm looking for an answer
to this question in doomed a place.
Lützerath.
Lützerath was a village in my home
of North Rhine-Westphalia.
Today, in the summer of 2022,
only little bit of it remains.
A little bit that is strongly contested.
The energy giant RWE wants
the coal under the houses.
The people want to stop the company
and save their homeland from destruction.
Where do we get in?
To the left, right, or straight ahead?
Straight ahead.
I want to protest
and don't even know the way.
Straight ahead, of course.
-I just wanted to know if you knew.
-Great.
Today there is a protest
around the cleared town of Lützerath.
The police cordoned off a wide area.
Please let the vehicle through.
We have to walk the last few kilometers.
I haven't been to many protests
and I'm amazed by how long the walk is.
Coming to this place
touches me emotionally.
I grew up very close by.
I knew there were pits,
even though I'd never been there.
But for everyone around here,
mining always meant work
and a warm living room.
Everyone watched
as the bucket wheel excavators were moved
from Garzweiler I to Garzweiler II.
It was a spectacle.
The largest excavators in the world
in our area.
I didn't realize
what they dug up until later.
Brown coal.
The dirtiest and most problematic
source of energy there is.
But, whatever.
It provided jobs
and kept the house warm, right?
And compulsory purchase orders, evictions.
Those happen here, too.
The mine was getting closer.
All of a sudden, houses disappeared,
the hospital in Immerath
where my husband was born,
-and where he went to school.
-Sick.
Suddenly, it was gone.
Did you always know
there had to be change,
or was it because you live
close to this hole
that you noticed something was wrong?
It was shortly before they demolished
the cathedral here in Immerath.
It's a scandal!
But the protestors here are
not just trying to save their homeland.
They care about the big picture.
If we here in Germany,
in our super privileged situation,
don't stop this opencast mine,
which is so unfair,
then it's over for 1.5 degrees Celsius.
1.5 DEGREES CELSIUS LIMIT
There is a 400-meter-deep hole here,
that has been dug
into some of Germany's best farmland.
In places like this, it becomes clear
how much we need systemic change.
NOT A DEGREE
MORE
On the signs I read "Seize RWE"
and other fundamental criticisms
of capitalism.
But what does that mean? What is the goal?
Capitalism is, above all,
the basis of our economy. And our growth.
Joko, my dear.
You talk about capitalism
and economic growth,
but you don't really know what they are.
I'll explain.
MR. CAPITALISM EXPLAINS
"CAPITALISM"
We all want prosperity, right?
Good. But how do we get it?
By making sure our GDP grows.
Our gross domestic product.
Put another way,
it's when all individuals and companies
work diligently
to provide services
and manufacture products
that can also be sold properly and...
And do so every year
more than in the previous year.
And now it gets interesting.
If companies produce more every year,
they also have to hire more people
who then earn money
with which they can buy things.
So economic growth brings benefits
and prosperity to all of us.
And now, people are turning around
and saying
that for everything to keep growing,
people and raw materials are exploited.
For that, you need cheap energy
from gas and coal.
As a result, the atmosphere heats up
and is gets polluted.
My goodness!
You can't make an omelette
without breaking a few legs.
Eggs.
"COAL MINING IN THE ENERGY CRISIS
LÜTZERATH WITH NOT BE SAVED"
"LÜTZERATH: EXCAVATE FIRST,
FOSSIL FUEL-FREE SECOND"
"LÜTZERATH: THE VILLAGE
THAT HAD TO MAKE WAY FOR COAL"
Now, RWE and North Rhine-Westphalia
have agreed
to phase out coal production by 2030,
eight years earlier than planned.
How much change
that will bring is unclear.
Because of the energy crisis,
more coal will be burned first.
Nothing will change for Lützerath.
The village was cleared
by the police early in 2023.
The village had to give way for the coal
that we need until we drop fossil fuels.
Experts criticized this.
Because if we burn this coal,
we would break the 1.5-degree limit.
To supply Germany with energy,
Lützerath could have remained,
since active opencast mines
still have enough coal left.
But opinions differ on this point.
It's awful that I must watch
as my future is just excavated away.
What's happening is not climate justice.
The climate crisis is a problem
for all people, young and old.
The climate crisis is
an existential crisis.
Don't we want to live in a world
where we mainly care about people's needs
and not about the creation of money?
OVER 300 VILLAGES DESTROYED IN 30 YEARS
It's true.
We live in a system
where the creation of money is paramount.
For cheap energy, for example,
we accept great destruction.
But systemic change?
How does that work?
And how radical can it be?
I'm meeting an old friend
who has a clear stance on this.
You've met her in another episode.
Luisa Neubauer is a climate activist
and she is angry.
How can it be that coal companies,
who all have sustainability goals,
who love climate protection,
are allowed to dispossess people?
How can they continue excavating
like there's no tomorrow?
Who actually has what rights here?
I see people who aren't losing
their faith in people,
but rather in the fossil fuel system.
That's good,
because it doesn't work anymore.
We have to differentiate
between an individual and a system.
And a lot of this fossil fuel life,
this fossil fuel madness and consumption,
is a system.
Let's stop for a moment.
We live in a fossil fuel system.
That means everything only works
because we dig up
cheap fossil fuels, burn them,
and use them to produce as much energy
as possible, as cheaply as possible,
so that the economy grows,
so everyone has work,
and so there's food on the table.
And well, prosperity.
If we really want
to turn this around for real,
then we have to get to the root
of the problem.
You have to look at systemic change,
because it's needed.
But isn't that the craziest thing
when we now say we want to change a system
that we've created over decades?
Perhaps we need to briefly discuss
what is meant by system.
-It's not about one system.
-Yes.
It's about a lot of small systems
that are calibrated the wrong way around.
For example, the road system.
Who is where? Who has priority?
Humans or machines?
People or the profit mentality
of the car companies?
And then you change it.
You create space for people
instead of more parking.
Then you create clean air,
since we're sick
because of all the traffic.
We see these systems everywhere.
But what would be an alternative
to our form of capitalism?
Is our standard of living,
which is based on growth,
automatically at odds with the well-being
of both people and nature?
Capitalism brings us prosperity.
But only if we all consume more and more.
And we do.
Me, too.
A little more every year.
And a little more the next year.
We know how much we spend, yes.
But do we know the true price?
Every click, every purchase,
everything we do has consequences.
Here and elsewhere in the world.
Whether we like it or not.
Our behavior sets off a chain reaction
that goes around the world.
Billions of chain reactions.
And most of them are bad.
We know that and we still buy.
Just like that, on and on.
Does our consumption
automatically lead to doom?
I'm calling a woman
who wonders about this, too.
Kara Hurst is Amazon's
Chief Sustainability Officer.
Yes, Amazon.
Shipping world champions and the platform
on which you're watching this.
Amazon wants to be carbon neutral by 2040.
It also wants to be a role model
for other global players.
With the Climate Pledge,
there has been a self-binding agreement
on climate protection since 2019,
which over 370 companies have now signed.
Does that change anything?
Are they taking this seriously?
That all sounds plausible at first.
If you actually manage
to go completely renewable
and do it quickly,
then that would be the straw to clutch at.
A beautiful utopia.
Consumption and growth
without consequences for the environment.
I love growth.
There can never be enough growth.
The problem with growth
isn't growth itself, at least for me.
But in the long run, how should I put it,
the planet will be all used up.
Everything is very simple.
We won't get the cheap energy that we need
for our growth from fossil fuels
but from renewable sources.
Water, wind, sun.
Raw materials can be extracted
using organic standards.
I've always said,
"More glass instead of plastic."
It's not all that difficult.
Glass.
So, leave it all to good old capitalism.
"Green growth" is what we call it today.
It sounds so healthy.
You wanna have a huge slice
of that big green cake?
And please don't ask if it all works.
Just chill.
The market takes care of that.
So, is it really possible
to create a new kind of growth
that works within the existing system?
One that not only maintains prosperity,
but promotes it?
Green capitalism, if you will?
Is that the easy solution?
That would be an encouraging thought.
I'm meeting the man
who sort of invented it.
Vinod Khosla is
a businessman and billionaire.
As a kind of super eco-capitalist,
he invested in the development
of environmental technologies for decades.
And he firmly believes
that green growth can save us all.
So, there is hope. There is a plan.
And the great thing is
that decision-makers in business
and politics agree.
Green growth will save us.
We're creating a sustainable capitalism
that pulls the necessary emergency brake
before the catastrophe at the last second.
Because now everyone gets it.
The fuel of our system,
cheap energy, is going green.
We rely on e-mobility, we produce cleanly,
and actually consume for a better world.
Working with nature.
Green growth. That's the answer.
We will continue to grow,
only this time green.
All's well that ends well.
It was actually good, wasn't it?
So I'm really happy
that in the end,
we actually found this green growth.
From my point of view, it's an illusion.
True, everyone talks about green growth.
But that doesn't mean
that there is green growth.
Ulrike Herrmann is an economic journalist
and author of several books on capitalism.
She is familiar
with the studies on green growth
and says that it would not be possible.
I'm right back at the beginning.
Why doesn't it work?
The idea of green growth is
that everything stays the same.
You only change the technology.
And what is completely ignored,
and I find this really fascinating,
especially in Silicon Valley,
is how much time technology needs
to become market-ready.
If we want to get climate protection
under control,
then we must do it
with the technology we have now.
Today's climate-friendly technology
is great.
But obviously, there are
a number of pitfalls, too.
Let's take the car.
So, the individual engines are
much more efficient these days.
But this did not result in a reduction
in the use of gas and diesel.
Instead, horsepower was simply increased.
A small car today only needs
three liters per 100 kilometers.
But people don't have
these small cars anymore,
they have a lot of SUVs instead.
Two tons of car drive around the city
to transport a single person.
That happens because
of the rebound effect.
MR. CAPITALISM EXPLAINS
I got rid of it.
For my conscience
"THE REBOUND EFFECT"
and the environment.
Instead, I bought myself
a cute electric car.
Because I save
so much CO2 with it, I thought,
"Why don't I buy a second one?
"And a third one?"
It's all climate-neutral.
One for the morning,
one for midday, one for the evening.
For our planet.
And that's what nerds call
the rebound effect.
Spend what you saved somewhere else.
Does it make sense? No.
Is it fun?
Yes!
If we immediately blow what we saved,
does that mean
that green growth is really nonsense?
If you take a look, what energy
can you produce in a climate-neutral way?
There are only two things.
Wind energy and solar energy.
It quickly becomes clear, however,
that you can't produce all the energy
you need for capitalism with it.
So, there are a lot of studies in Germany
looking into what it would be enough for.
Then we realize
a maximum of half of our cars
would stay on the road.
It's not enough energy
for the chemical industry.
We couldn't use up any more space.
New construction would have to be limited.
And so on.
You can also see very clearly
that green growth won't work.
Maybe I'm the idiot here, now.
But green growth
and capitalism don't go together?
Nope.
So, don't misunderstand me,
capitalism was a really great system.
It was the first system in human history
that produced growth and prosperity.
The only problem with this super system is
that you can't grow infinitely
in a finite world.
Now you have a problem when capitalism,
the system in which we live,
immediately goes into crisis
if there is permanent contraction.
That means there won't actually be
any form of green capitalism, either?
No.
You actually have to change
the entire system in one fell swoop.
And that can only be done
through politics.
So this puts the idea
of green growth into question again.
It's supported by evidence.
But what about politics
and green growth in general?
Can we reform the system from within
without putting it into question?
I'll ask the person responsible for it.
Economics and Climate Minister
Robert Habeck.
People used to look at this building
for the last 10 years and say,
"It's better if you don't do anything.
"You're good economic ministers
if you stay out of everything."
Those days are over.
The same goes for business.
Talking to CEOs, they say,
"We need political support.
"We need laws, frameworks."
-They want that?
-They do.
In this respect, there is a willingness.
But above all, there is
a change in attitude towards politics.
They now want political action again.
So now, we put the rules in place
that create ecological progress
and better climate tools
for a more successful economic model.
So, green growth works,
but politicians have to steer it.
Why should this be possible now,
when the market has always
refused to do it?
The climate crisis is
a big market failure.
Obviously, fossil fuel energies
and the burning of fuels were required
and successful for the market economy,
but also got us into this mess.
So, what's the answer?
Stick with the creativity,
and thus to the market,
but implement controls.
Introduce a very formative,
very self-confident politics
to represent society.
Ensure that markets serve the interests
of society and not their own interests.
And then we talk about a transformation
of the market economy.
On the one hand,
we must contract to save humanity.
On the other, we mustn't contract
because our economic system will collapse.
And with it, life as we know it.
Which means we can throw
most of the ideas
that I have encountered in the trash.
All of it only works
in a system of perpetual growth.
Then it doesn't matter
whether it's green or not.
You think there's a solution,
then someone else comes along
and disagrees.
Infinite growth is the logic
of a cancer cell.
Nothing can grow permanently.
The worst part is
everyone seems to be right.
Is there no solution at all?
Everything I've found out,
isn't it enough?
Do we try to get the social, ecological,
and economic catastrophe under control
using cosmetic repairs?
Those who know how can't do it.
The climate crisis is
a big market failure.
And those who do it know how?
But we can't do it?
Capitalism has a growth imperative.
Despite knowing how...
I'm going nuts. I'm going crazy.
Maybe I'm already crazy.
Nothing makes sense at all.
If I hadn't known what I know now,
I would have had 20 super relaxed years
ahead of me.
I still have 11 minutes of airtime
and I don't know how we're going
to get out of this mess.
God...
And cut!
Thanks. Let's get ready
for the hopeful ending!
-Wait! Where am I supposed to go?
-Just keep the camera on him.
Through that door, Joko.
I stay on Joko.
-You stay on Joko?
-Yes.
-Yes.
-Okay.
Rolling.
And...
Three, two, one.
All rolling.
THE HOPEFUL
END
Joko.
Professor Kemfert.
Professor Claudia Kemfert is
the top economist in Germany.
On talk shows and podcasts,
she talks about solutions
and is like a beacon
at the end of the world.
-Sit down. You look pale.
-Yes.
Where do you want me to start?
How fucked are we?
Pretty fucked.
As we sit here, the world is dying.
We can talk about it,
but there isn't one solution,
though there are lots of theories.
So, there's no proof
that what people come up with will work.
And no matter how many people I've met,
as I'm representing
the people watching, I'm at a point
where I'm really terrified
that we're screwing up.
That's normal,
because there's no single answer.
There are a lot of complicated things
that we have to do.
There are solutions, that's the good news,
and we can do something.
How does that work?
What we need is basically a revolution.
Why is Professor Kemfert so hopeful?
Come with me. I'll show you.
Look at these two pictures.
This is Fifth Avenue around 1900.
-This is 13 years later.
-Okay.
Do you see the difference?
These are all horse-drawn carriages.
-That's actually a developed road.
-Exactly.
What happened around 1900
on New York's main road, Fifth Avenue,
was a minor revolution.
In just 13 years, the road was resurfaced
and the horses were gone.
The car superseded the horse
at lightning speed.
From today's perspective,
the engine thing was counterproductive.
But the good news is
that a lot can change in just a few years.
If everyone joins in.
Professor Kemfert is promoting
bold changes.
For example, converting our cities.
It will change drastically.
We know that we have
far too many cars on the road.
It's all about traffic prevention,
optimizing and shifting traffic.
A lot more bike lanes,
a lot more pedestrians.
The humane city will be
the city of the future.
Humane cities?
It sounds absurd, but it's possible.
I've experienced it myself on my trip.
In Copenhagen.
The city of the future is resilient.
It's small, it's decentralized,
it's green.
We also use urban farming on the roofs.
I also stood in a roof garden
while on my journey.
It's about architecture having to change.
Everything here, it's not rocket science.
It's all already here in some way.
The rooftop wind turbine
already exists today.
The solar energy systems too, but then
maybe they can also be on walls.
The facade then produces
the energy that we use there.
Could it be possible
-to develop a color...
-Already here.
-It exists?
-Of course.
There are inventions in the world
that knock your socks off. They're crazy.
I've seen a few myself.
Since many are too expensive
to make profit, they aren't even sold.
The question remains.
What are we going to do about growth?
The growth we have at the moment
is detrimental.
That things are leading to waste now,
to overexploitation, to climate change,
that has to be stopped.
Our biggest concerns are climate change
and the destruction of the planet.
Anything we can do
to avoid them will help.
No matter what,
that's the main thing at stake here.
Being excited to be part of the solution.
We are not responsible
for to changing everything,
but we can set things in motion.
Each of us can do a small part.
These are collective processes.
Each of us needs to start rethinking.
If we really care about our future,
and we should,
then we really have to change something.
It's not about whether "that"
can still be done,
"That" doesn't exist.
We must care about
every tenth of a degree,
for every ecosystem, every species,
for every piece of land
that is still intact,
for every bit of climate stability
that we can get.
We have to fight for it.
This waste,
this exploitation of the planet,
it can't go on like this.
And the way out
is a combination of everything.
We're human. We live, talk,
and work with each other.
There isn't one single way we can go,
but there are some things
we can all do together.
And the more we do, the better.
I'll try to summarize everything
that's still on my mind.
What was my aim
when I started this journey?
I would say
that I wanted to generate hope.
Is hope a luxury
that we simply have to let ourselves have
because there's no other way?
Am I really convinced
that this hope isn't just empty words?
Let's be honest.
Despite all the people and ideas,
and there are some badass people,
no matter how small
or how big the opportunities,
these were really incredible initiatives.
It's not enough.
Nothing is enough.
For every good example,
there are a number of bitter realities
that shatter it all.
You defeat one evil
only to be faced with 1,000 more.
And it wasn't clear to any of us
at the beginning that this would happen.
We really believed
we could show you solutions here.
I've never slept as badly as I have
since I started this project.
I wish I could stop thinking about it.
And it wasn't just me, it was everyone.
We saw a world we thought sucked,
but we didn't think it sucked this much.
The climate is completely out of balance.
We don't have to look to the future
to see the climate crisis coming.
We're in it, already.
There's a 1.5-degree target for the planet
to remain reasonably habitable.
We will still go beyond it
within this decade.
Only one thing will help.
We have to get off fossil fuels.
There's no other way.
We're all just lying to ourselves.
Industry has a much greater impact
on all of this than you and I,
but we all benefited from this system
that industry put in front of us.
As individuals, climate change
is not our fault.
Somehow that's not true.
Because we only have
a manageable influence
through our personal consumer behavior.
But we contributed
to the situation we're in now.
We have the power
and also the responsibility
to change the way we think.
Not just young people with their fears,
but above all people like you and me.
People in their 40s
who in some way have influence on society.
We have a responsibility.
We can ensure that people in politics act.
Only they can really change things.
They must do that, because it's their job.
We can ensure that normal society
in all its facets stays on the ball.
Despair cannot be an option.
Not an option. We can take opportunities
that already exist. We have to use them.
Maybe you don't want to hear it anymore.
"If you do this, if you do that, then..."
Yes, sure, it doesn't feel that great.
But this is how it is.
Our collective effort can make possible
the needed systemic revolution
in big and small ways.
You ask me, "Are we screwed?"
Yes, I think we are screwed.
I don't know if we can escape this.
That's my opinion.
I have maybe 40 years left on this planet.
I can make them nice for myself.
But after that, there could be
no future left.
We are responsible for ensuring
that there is a future
for those who come after us.
Bye.