The Civil War (1990): Season 1, Episode 1 - The Cause - full transcript

MAN: AND CHECK IT ON MONITOR.

THIS IS FLORENTINE FILMS,

AMERICAN DOCUMENTARIES,

"THE CIVIL WAR" SOUND ROLL ONE,

PICTURE ROLL ONE.

IT'S APRIL 17, 1986.

INTERVIEW WITH SHELBY FOOTE.

BURNS: SPEED GETS UP
TO THE FIRST RECORD,

NOT ON LIMITED,
RIGHT?

MAN: UH, IT DOESN'T MATER.

SET IT UP T0 N0 LIMIT.
ALL--ALL THE WAY.



NO LIMITING.

OK. WE GOT SPEED
AND CAMERA, AND...
OK.

I'M READY. I'LL COME
IN AT THE END
OF YOUR QUESTION.

IT'S HARD TO REALLY
KNOW EXACTLY
WHERE TO BEGIN, UM,

BUT I THINK MAYBE,
WHY DID AMERICANS
KILL EACH OTHER

IN SUCH
EXTRAORDINARY NUMBERS

FOR 4 YEARS?

IT WAS BECAUSE WE FAILED
TO DO THE THING

WE REALLY HAVE
A GENIUS FOR,

WHICH IS COMPROMISE.

AMERICANS LIKE TO
THINK OF THEMSELVES
AS UNCOMPROMISING.

OUR TRUE GENIUS
IS FOR COMPROMISE.

OUR WHOLE GOVERNMENT'S
FOUNDED ON IT,

AND IT FAILED.



THAT'S WHY
THE CIVIL WAR HAPPENED?

YES. OF COURSE,
THERE ARE MANY REASONS,

BUT BASICALLY,
IT WAS A—-A FAILURE, UH,

ON OUR PART TO FIND
AWAY NOT TO

FIGHT THAT WAR.

WHICH HAD BEEN--
WE'D HAD A HALF CENTURY

OF UNEASY ALLIANCES
AND COMPROMISES.

WHY DID--BUT WHY DID
THIS BEAUTIFUL COUNTRY
BREAK DOWN?

|T--|T--THERE'S--THERE'S
SO MANY REASONS THAT CAN

BE ASSIGNED
AFTER THE FACT,

SLAVERY BEING
THE MAIN ONE,

AND THAT'S LINCOLN'S
IDENTIFICATION

OF THE CENTRAL PROBLEM.

UH, IT WAS ALSO
THE FlRE-EATERS
OF THE SOUTH.

IT WAS A GREAT DISTRESS
ON A PART OF THE SOUTH

SINCE THEY SAW
THE CHANGES THAT

THEY DIDN'T WELCOME
IN THE GOVERNMENT.

FOR EXAMPLE, THERE
HAD BEEN--ALWAYS BEEN

SOUTHERN PRESIDENTS
UP UNTIL THE POINT

WHERE THERE STOPPED BEING
SOUTHERN PRESIDENTS.

THEY WEREN'T TOO
HAPPY ABOUT THAT.

THE OTHER THING--
AND A REALLY IMPORTANT ONE

HISTORICALLY—-|S
WHEN THEY ENTERED

INTO THAT FEDERATION,
THEY CERTAINLY WOULD NEVER

HAVE ENTERED INTO IT
IF THEY HADN'T BELIEVED

IT WOULD BE POSSIBLE
TO GET OUT.

AND WHEN THE TIME CAME
THAT THEY WANTED TO GET OUT,

THEY THOUGHT
THEY HAD EVERY RIGHT.

UH, SECESSION WASN'T
STRICTLYA SOUTHERN
THING, EITHER.

MASSACHUSETTS THREATENED
TO SECEDE LONG

BEFORE ANY SOUTHERN
STATE DID.

OF COURSE, THEY SAY WARS
NEVER SETTLE ANYTHING.

THAT BUSINESS
ABOUT SECESSION

WAS CERTAINLY SETTLED
BY THAT WAR.

WHAT MAKES THE WAR
IMPORTANT TODAY?

A—-AS A SOUTHERNER,
I WOULD SAY, UH,

ONE OF THE MAIN
IMPORTANCES OF THE WAR

IS THAT SOUTHERNERS HAVE
ASENSE OF DEFEAT,

UH, WHICH, UH, NONE
OF THE REST
OF THE COUNTRY HAS.

UH, YOU'LL SEE
IN THE MOVIE "PATTON"

THE ACTOR WHO PLAYS
PATTON SAYING,

"WE AMERICANS HAVE
NEVER LOST A WAR."

THAT'S A RATHER AMAZING
STATEMENT FOR HIM

TO MAKE AS PATTON BECAUSE
PATTON'S GRANDFATHER

WAS ON--UH, IN LEE'S ARMY
OF NORTHERN VIRGINIA,

AND HE CERTAINLY
LOSTAWAR.

THE WAR IS REALLY--WHAT
YOU'RE SAYING IS,

THE WAR IS REALLY
WITH US.

IT IS WITH US IN THE SENSE
OF TRAGIC DEFEAT

AND RECONSTRUCTION
WHICH FOLLOWED.

IT WAS FAR
FROM A MARSHALL PLAN.

IT WAS THE OPPOSITE
OF THE MARSHALL PLAN.

WE KNOW THE SOUTH
WAS FIGHTING FOR,

AMONG OTHER THINGS,
SLAVERY,

DEFENSE OF SLAVERY--
ACTUALLY, I THINK WHAT
I'M GONNA DO |S—-

MAN: SLATE, SLATE.

ONCE MORE

GOOD. TWO SLATES.

WAS THE SOUTH
FIGHTING

FOR SOMETHING
WORTHWHILE?

I MEAN, WE THINK
OF THIS ISSUE
WITH SLAVERY,

AND OBVIOUSLY,
THERE IS NOTHING--

WE KNOW THEY'RE FIGHTING
FOR SLAVERY.

IS THERE SOMETHING TO
COMMEND WHY THE SOUTH
WENT TO BATTLE?

THE--THE SOUTH WOULD
HAVE--UH, SOUTHERNERS

WOULD HAVE TOLD YOU
THEY WERE FIGHTING
FOR SELF-GOVERNMENT.

UH, THEY--THEY BELIEVED
THAT THE GATHERING

OF POWER IN WASHINGTON
WAS AGAINST THEM.

UH, THEY WERE OPPOSED
TO ANY NUMBER

OF SMALL THINGS,
SUCH AS HIGH TARIFFS,

WHICH MADE THEIR
FARM IMPLEMENTS COST MORE,

UH, A LOT OF THINGS.

BRUCE CATTON SAID THAT
IT WAS POl--THAT SLAVERY

WAS THE POISON THAT
CONVULSED THE NATION
FINALLY INTO WAR.

UH, I DO NOT REALLY
BELIEVE THAT, UH, EXCEPT

AS AN ISSUE WHICH PEOPLE
WHO WANTED TO EXPLOIT IT
COULD GRAB HOLD OF.

I'M NOT DEFENDING
SLAVERY AS A GOOD THING,

BUT AS FOR A CAUSE
OF THE WAR, IT WAS SIMPLY,

UH, ALMOST
A PROPAGANDA ITEM.

UM, SLAVERY WAS,
UH, CERTAINLY DOOMED
TO EXTINCTION.

THERE'S NO DOUBT
ABOUT HOW LONG

IT WOULD HAVE LASTED.

IT WAS CERTAINLY
PROFITABLE.

IT WASN'T GOING TO
DISAPPEAR

BECAUSE IT
WASN'T PROFITABLE.

IT WAS.

BUT, UH, SLAVERY HAD
BEEN ABOLISHED

ALL OVER THE PLACE.

UH, THE SERFS WERE FREED
IN 1861 IN RUSSIA,

AND IT WAS DOWN THE ROAD
AND NOT FAR DOWN THE ROAD.

SOME PLAN OF COMPENSATED
EMANCIPATION,

UH, WOULD CERTAINLY
HAVE WORKED IN TIME.

CATTON AGAIN ALSO
SAID THAT AMERICA

AT THE BEGINNING
OF THE WAR WAS
SMALL ENOUGH

TO CARRY IN THE HEART
AND IN THE MIND.

WHAT WAS AMERICA LIKE?
WHAT WAS THE AMERICA

THAT WENT TO WAR
IN 1861?

|T--|T--|T HAD
A SIMPLICITY THAT WE ARE

NOT ABLE TO COMPREHEND.

OF COURSE, THAT'S
TRUE ANY TIME YOU GET
SOMETHING IN THE PAST.

UH, IF YOU SEE
A 19308 MOVIE NOW,

THE SIMPLICITY
OF THE THING IS JUST AMAZING.

SO THAT WHEN YOU
SUBTRACT 70-ODD YEARS
FROM THAT,

YOU GET BACK
TO ANOTHER KIND
OF SIMPLICITY,

BUT AS LINCOLN SAID,
HUMAN NATURE
DOESN'T CHANGE,

AND--AND HUMAN NATURE
DIDN'T CHANGE,

BUT MEN'S BELIEFS,
UH, HAD A STARTLING
SIMPLICITY TO IT.

UH, FOR EXAMPLE,
ASOLDIER IN LINE
AT GETTYSBURG TOLD

"YOU WILL ADVANCE A MILE
ACROSS THAT OPEN VALLEY
AND TAKE THAT HILL"--

UH, I, FOR ONE,
WOULD SAY,

UH, "GENERAL, |--| DON'T
THINK WE SHOULD DO THIS.

|--| DON'T BELIEVE
WE CAN GET THERE."

BUT THEY--THEY—-THEY
TOOK IT IN A MATTER
OF COURSE.

UH, AND YOU MUST
REMEMBER, THEY FOUGHT

FOR 4 YEARS, WHICH
IS A--A LONG TIME,

AND THEIR SIMPLICITY
WAS SEVERELY TESTED,

BUT THEY NEVER LOST IT.

UH, TH EY—-TH EY—-DUTY,
UH, BRAVERY

UNDER ADVERSITY,
VERY SIMPLE VIRTUES,

UH, AND THEY HAD THEM.

WELL, DRINK IN
THE COUNTRY FOR ME
FORASECOND

VISUALLY,
GEOGRAPHICALLY

JUST BEFORE
THE WAR STARTED.

WE'RE POISED AT
THE EDGE OF WAR.

WHAT WAS THE KIND
OF COUNTRY | WAS SEEING?

WELL, FOR ONE THING,
YOU'D HAVE TO REALIZE

TO WHAT A GREAT EXTENT
IT WAS AGRICULTURAL.

THE FARMERS WERE
THE LARGEST SINGLE, UH, BODY

OF PEOPLE,
AND THAT HAD ITS INFLUENCE.

UM, SCHOOLS
WERE DIFFERENT.

THEY--THEY TAUGHT
VERY SIMPLE SUBJECTS,

AND ALL THE TEACHERS
WERE MEN, INCIDENTALLY,

VERY FEW WOMEN TEACHERS,
BUT--

UNTIL AFTER
THE CIVIL WAR.

THAT'S INCIDENTALLY
ONE OF THE GREAT CHANGES

THE CIVIL WAR MADE WAS,
UH, WOMEN TEACHERS.

UH, IT GAVE EMPLOYMENT
TO THE--TO THE OLD MAIDS

AND THE WIDOWS
FROM THE CIVIL WAR.

THE--TO DEFINE IT
AS A COUNTRY IS NOT EASY

BECAUSE IT'S
SO FAR FROM US,

AND YET WE STILL HAVE
MANY OF THE QUALITIES

THAT THOSE PEOPLE HAD.

THEY WERE AMERICANS
THEN AS THEY ARE NOW.

WE WERE NOT AS DIVERSE.

UH, FOR EXAMPLE,
IN 20 YEARS OF RESEARCHING

THE CIVIL WAR, | CAME ACROSS
MAYBE TWO ITALIAN NAMES.

LOTS OF GERMANS
AND HUNGARIANS,

BUT, UH,
NO ITALIANS AT TALL.

BUT TELL ME WHAT
THEN AMERICA WAS
LIKE IN 1865?

HOW HAD IT CHANGED
JUST EVEN IN ITS BONES?

|T--|T--|T REALLY
IS ONE OF THOSE, UM--

ONE OF THOSE
WATERSHED THINGS.

IT WAS A HUGE CHASM
BETWEEN THE BEGINNING
AND THE END OF THE WAR.

UH, THE NATION HAD COME
FACE TO FACE

WITH A--A DREADFUL TRAGEDY,

AND WE REACTED THE WAY
A FAMILY WOULD DO

WITH A DREADFUL TRAGEDY.

UH, IT WAS ALMOST
INCONCEIVABLE

THAT ANYTHING THAT
HORRENDOUS COULD HAPPEN.

YOU MUST REMEMBER
THE CASUALTIES
IN CIVIL WAR BATTLES

WERE SO FAR
BEYOND ANYTHING
WE CAN IMAGINE NOW.

IF WE HAD 10% CASUALTIES
IN A BATTLE TODAY,

IT WOULD BE LOOKED ON
AS A BLOOD BATH.

THEY HAD 30%
IN SEVERAL BATTLES

AND ONE AFTER ANOTHER,
YOU SEE.

UH, SHILOH HAD THE SAME
PERCENTAGE OF CASUALTIES
AS WATERLOO.

HOLD ON, PLEASE.
WE'LL DO A SLATE.

CAMERA, PLEASE.

MAN: SLATE.

HEAD SLATE.

THE--THE HORROR
AND THE KILLING
OF THE CIVIL WAR

WE TEND TO ROMANTICIZE,
AND WE FORGET THAT THIS

WAS AN EXTRAORDINARILY
BLOODY EVENT.

RE--REM|ND ME OF THAT.

WELL, FIGURES
SOMETIMES DO IT.

UH, I SAID SHILOH
HAD THE SAME NUMBER

OR, UH, PERCENTAGE
OF CASUALTIES AS WATERLOO,

AND YET WHEN IT WAS
FOUGHT, THERE WERE

ANOTHER 20 WATERLOOS
TO FOLLOW,

AND YOU JUST CANNOT
CONCEIVE THAT THERE WERE

A MILLION CASUALTIES,
FOR INSTANCE,

IN THE CIVIL WAR,
OVERA MILLION CASUALTIES,

INCLUDING THE WOUNDED
AND CAPTURED,

AS WELL AS KILLED,
AND THOSE WHO DIED
OF VARIOUS DISEASES

AT THE SAME TIME.

AND, UH, IT'S HARD
FOR US TO CONCEIVE.

UM, A GOOD EXAMPLE
OF HOW BLOODY IT WAS

IS THAT IN THE YEAR
AFTER THE WAR

THE STATE OF MISSISSIPPI
SPENT 1/5 OF ITS TOTAL INCOME

ON ARTIFICIAL ARMS
AND LEGS

FOR VETERANS BACK
FROM THE WAR.

THAT--THAT--THAT'S
AN INCREDIBLE FIGURE.

WHY IS IT THAT WE
ROMANTICIZE IT?

I MEAN, THIS WAS US.

WE KILLED NOT SOME
FOREIGN ENEMY.

WE KILLED OURSELVES.

THAT'S--UH, THAT'S
VERY MUCH IN CHARACTER.

WE THINK THAT WE ARE A--
A WHOLLY SUPERIOR PEOPLE.

IF WE'D BEEN ANYTHING
LIKE AS SUPERIOR

AS WE THINK WE ARE,
WE WOULD NOT HAVE
FOUGHT THAT WAR,

BUT SINCE DID FIGHT IT,
WE HAVE TO MAKE IT

THE GREATEST WAR
OF ALL TIMES,

AND OUR GENERALS WERE
THE GREATEST GENERALS
OF ALL TIME.

IT'S VERY
AMERICAN TO DO THAT,

AND WE DID IT
WITH THAT WAR,

AS WE HAVE WITH ALL
THE OTHER WARS WE FOUGHT.

BUT WE DID
MURDER EACH OTHER.

WE DID, INDEED.

UH, IT WAS BRUTAL STUFF.

THE REASON
FOR THE HIGH CASUALTIES

IS REALLY QUITE SIMPLE.

THE WEAPONS WERE WAY AHEAD
OF THE TACTICS.

UH, THE RIFLED--
UH, THE RIFLE ITSELF,

IT THREW A 53-CALIBER SOFT
LEAD BULLET

AT A LOW MUZZLE VELOCITY,

AND WHEN IT HIT--
UH, THE REASON THERE WERE

SO MANY AMPUTATIONS,
IF YOU GOT HIT HERE,

IT DIDN'T CLIP
YOUR BONE THE WAY

THE MODERN STEEL-JACKETED
BULLET DOES.

YOU DIDN'T HAVE
ANY BONE FROM HERE TO HERE.

THEY HAD NO CHOICE
BUT TO TAKE YOUR ARM OFF,

AND YOU'LL SEE PICTURES
OF THE DEAD

ON THE BATTLEFIELD
WITH THEIR CLOTHES
IN DISARRAY

AS IF SOMEONE
HAD BEEN GOING--

RIFLING THEIR BODIES.

THAT WAS THE MEN
THEMSELVES TEARING

THEIR CLOTHES UP TO SEE
WHERE THE WOUND WAS,

AND THEY KNEW PERFECTLY
WELL IF THEY WERE

GUT SHOT THEY'D DIE.

IT WAS A--THEY STILL
BELIEVED THAT TO TAKE

A POSITION YOU MASSED
YOUR MEN AND MOVED UP

AND GAVE THEM
THE BAYONET.

WELL, THERE WERE
PRACTICALLY NO BAYONET WOUNDS

IN THE CIVIL WAR,
MUCH MORE THAN THERE WERE

IN THE FIRST WORLD WAR
OR THE SECOND.

THEY--THEY NEVER CAME
IN THAT KIND OF CONTACT,

OR AT LEAST VERY SELDOM
CAME INTO THAT KIND
OF CONTACT,

BUT THEY STILL THOUGHT
THAT TO THEIR FIRE

THEY HAD
TO MASS THEIR MEN,

SO THEY LINED UP
AND MARCHED UP

TOWARD AN ENTRENCHED LINE
AND GOT BLOWN AWAY.

UH, AND THEY DIDN'T
ADVANCE BY RUSHES.

THEY--THEY—-THEY LINED UP.

THEY BELIEVED THAT
IF YOU DIDN'T LINE UP,

YOU WEREN'T FORMIDABLE.

THE OTHER SIDE WASN'T
AS APT TO RUN FROM YOU.

IF YOU LINED UP
AND MARCHED STEADILY

TOWARD THEM, THEY WOULD RUN.

BUT, OF COURSE,
WHAT HAPPENED TO THEM

IS THEY SHOT YOU.

THANK YOU. WE'VE JUST
RUN OUT OF FILM IN

THIS ROLL, END OF ROLL.

THAT'S GREAT. IT WILL
TAKE US A FEW MINUTES

TO CHANGE ROLLS,
AND THEN WE'LL DO IT.

ROLL TWO,
SOUND ROLL TWO,

SHELBY FOOTE INTERVIEW
CONTINUING.

BUT THERE ARE MORE
EXAMPLES OF THE HORROR

OF THE WAR, WHICH WE
ALWAYS TEND TO FORGET.

THE VERY FIGURES, UH,
ARE A STARK STATEMENT OF IT,

BUT THEY--THEY
ARE INTERESTING.

UH, PICKETT'S CHARGE,
THE CASUALTIES WERE

ALMOST EXACTLY 50%
OF THE MEN WHO TOOK PART

IN THAT CHARGE.

THAT'S INCLUDING
THE CAPTURED,

AS WELL AS
THE KILLED AND WOUNDED.

UM, AND ON THE FIRST
DAYAT SHILOH,

THE SIXTH MISSISSIPPI,

AS PART OF
PAT CLEBURNE'S BRIGADE,

MADE 4 SEPARATE CHARGES
AGAINSTA RIDGE

WHERE SHERMAN'S
HEADQUARTERS WERE,

AND THEY TOOK IT
ON THE FOURTH CHARGE,

BUT THEY WENT INTO THAT
CHARGE WITH 425 MEN

AND CAME OUT WITH
JUST OVER 100,

TO SHOW YOU
EXTREME EXAMPLES

OF, UH, OF THE CARNAGE
THAT'S INVOLVED.

THERE AGAIN, YOU HAVE
THIS MASSING OF MEN,

UH, AGAINST
RIFLE--R|FLED GUNS.

IT'S, UH...HORRENDOUS.

IF YOU COULD BE
THE PROVERBIAL FLY
ON THE WALL IN HISTORY,

OBSERVING AN EVENT--
OR EVENTS

IF YOU CAN'T
DECIDE ONE--

WHAT--WHERE WOULD YOU
LIKE TO HAVE BEEN?

WHERE COULD YOU BE
PLOPPED DOWN TO WATCH?

OH, I SUPPOSE,
UM, IN THE LIVING ROOM

OF THE MCLEAN HOUSE
AT APPOMATTOX WOULD BE

AN OBVIOUS GOOD
PLACE TO BE.

| WOULDN'T MIND BEING
AT THE GETTYSBURG ADDRESS.

UH, I WOULD LIKE
TO JUST SEE LEE

ON HIS HORSE IN BATTLE.

MANY, MANY, SO MANY
THINGS I'D LIKE TO SEE.

TELL ME WHY
ON THE MCLEAN HOUSE.

MAYBE START AGAIN
AND SAY IF YOU
COULD BE IN ONE--

THAT'S WHERE IT
ENDED, YOU SEE,

AT THE MCLEAN HOUSE,

AND, UH, |T—-|T WOULD
BE GREAT TO SEE

LEE AND GRANT
IN THE SAME ROOM
THERE TOGETHER,

UH, AND, UH, SEE
THE CONTRAST
BETWEEN THE TWO MEN.

AND, UH, BY NO MEANS,
ALL OF THE ADMIRATION
WOULD GO TO LEE.

GRANT'S CONDUCT
AT APPOMATTOX WAS
TOTALLY ADMIRABLE.

THE BEST SIDE OF GRANT
CAME OUT AT THAT TIME,

AND I WOULD LIKE
TO SEE THAT.

ANY OTHER EVENT
YOU'D LOVE TO BE DOWN
THERE AND WHY?

|--| SCARCELY KNOW
OF AN EVENT IN THE WHOLE WAR

| WOULDN'T LIKE
TO HAVE SEEN.

UH, I WOULD LIKE TO
HAVE SEEN THE BATTLE
OF MEMPHIS HERE,

THE NAVAL BATTLE,
WHICH WAS A COMPLETE FIASCO.

THEY JUST BLEW
THE CONFEDERATES
OUT OF THE WATER,

BUT I WOULD LIKE
TO HAVE SEEN IT.

IT'S, UM--|T'S
HARD TO KNOW.

I WOULD L|KE--YOU HAVE
PEOPLE YOU BECOME

VERY FOND OF
IN WRITING ABOUT.

THERE'S AN ARKANSAS GENERAL
WHO HAS NEARLY

BEEN FORGOTTEN NOW.

AT THE TIME, HE WAS
SOMETIMES CALLED

THE STONEWALL JACKSON
OF THE WEST.

HIS NAME WAS
PAT CLEBURNE.

HE WAS A GREAT GENERAL,
PROBABLY THE BEST
DIVISION COMMANDER

IN EITHER ARMY.

AND I WOULD JUST LIKE
TO SEE PAT CLEBURNE

SITTING IN A CHAIR
SOMEWHERE.

I WOULD GET
ATERRIFIC KICK
OUT OF THAT.

BESIDES CLEBURNE,
WHAT FIGURE ARE
YOU DRAWN TO--

OR FIGURES IN THE WAR,
IN THE WHOLE THING,
WOULD YOU JUST--

NOT SO MUCH
LIKE TO KNOW,
BUT WHO IS THE--

IT'S A FUNNY THING.

AWRITER HAS USE
FOR, UH, VILLAINS

AS HE DOES FOR HEROES.

I WOULD LOVE TO SEE
STANTON IN ACTION.

HE WAS A BULLY
AND A COWARD

AND, UH, ALL KINDS
OF BAD THINGS,

BUT HE LIVENS UP
PAGE AFTER PAGE OF HISTORY,

AND I WOULD LOVE TO
SEE HIM IN ACTION.

IT'S A--|T'S
ACURIOUS THING.

IT'S LIKE, I SUSPECT
DICKENS WAS VERY FOND

OF BILL SIKES,
THE SAME KIND OF THING.

DO YOU HAVE A FAVORITE
STORY ABOUT THE WAR?

UM, TH--TH--THERE ARE
SO MANY OF THEM.

ONE OF MY FAVORITES--
YOU ASKED WHAT'S
THE CAUSE OF THE WAR.

UH, EARLY IN THE WAR,
SOME, UM--A UNION SQUAD

CLOSED IN ON A SINGLE
RAGGED CONFEDERATE,

AND HE OBVIOUSLY
DIDN'T OWN ANY SLAVES.

HE COULDN'T HAVE
MUCH INTERESTED

IN THE CONSTITUTION
OR ANYTHING ELSE.

AND SAID, "WHAT ARE YOU
FIGHTING FOR, ANYHOW?"

THEY ASKED HIM.

AND HE SAID, "I'M
FIGHTING BECAUSE

YOU'RE DOWN HERE,"

WHICH IS A PRETTY
SATISFACTORY ANSWER.

| FIND AMIDST ALL
THIS INCREDIBLE DRAMA,

GREAT HUMOR IN THE WAR.

ALWAYS, ALWAYS.

UM, THERE--THERE--
THERE ARE SO MANY

RIDICULOUS STORIES
ABOUT THE WAR.

THERE-THERE IS
NO END TO THEM.

UM, AND--AND THERE'S
SCARC ELY A PAGE

OF THE CIVIL WAR,
AS I SEE IT, THAT DOESN'T

HAVE SOMETHING,
MAYBE NOT FUNNY,

BUT CERTAINLY SARDONIC
OR AKIN TO HUMOR

IN SOME KIND OF WAY.

AHEM. THERE ARE M-MANY
STORIES ABOUT THAT.

IT SEEMS FULL
OF GRIM IRONY,

AS IF THERE MAYBE
WERE ONLY 200 PEOPLE
IN THE ENTIRE COUNTRY

BECAUSE EVERYTHING
SEEMED TO BE HAPPENED
TO SOMEBODY'S RELATIVE,

AUNT, BROTHER, SISTER
ON BOTH SIDES.

RIGHT. THERE WERE ANY
NUMBER OF STORIES.

LINCOLN HAD, MY GOD,
AN INEXHAUSTIBLE FUND
OF STORIES.

MY FAVORITE STORY THAT
LINCOLN TOLD WAS

HE DESCRIBED
A UNION GENERAL OUT

IN FRONT OF HIS TROOPS
ON HORSEBACK,

AND THEY WERE HAVING
A REVIEW

AND THE HORSE GOT
TO KICKING AND PRANCING

AND JERKING AROUND.

AND SOMEHOW ANOTHER,
THE HORSE GOT HIS REAR FOOT

HOOKED IN THE STIRRUP.

AND THE GENERAL LOOKED
DOWN AT THIS RIDICULOUS
SITUATION AND SAID

TO THE HORSE, "IF YOU'RE
GOING TO GET ON,
I'LL GET OFF."

HEH HEH HEH.

SO |T'S--|T'S
RIDICULOUS.

FAIRLY TYPICAL
LINCOLN HUMOR INCIDENTALLY.

HE HAD A FUNNY, SARDONIC
TURN OF MIND

ABOUT, UH, FUNNY STORIES.

AND HE COULD ALWAYS
TIE THEM IN TO MAKE
A POINT WITH.

WHAT KIND
OF MAN WAS HE?

A—-A--A VERY
MYSTERIOUS MAN.

UH, HE'S GOT SO
MANY SIDES TO HIM.

THE CURIOUS THING ABOUT
LINCOLN TO ME, UH, IS

THAT HE COULD REMOVE
HIMSELF FROM HIMSELF,

AS IF HE WERE
LOOKING AT HIMSELF.

IT'S A VERY STRANGE,
VERY EERIE THING.

UM, AND HIGHLY INTELLIGENT.

IT'S SUCH A SIMPLE
THING TO SAY,

BUT, UH, LINCOLN'S
BEEN SO SMOTHERED

WITH STORIES
OF HIS COMPASSION

THAT PEOPLE FORGET
WHAT A HIGHLY
INTELLIGENT MAN HE WAS.

AND ALMOST
EVERYTHING HE DID,

ALMOST EVERYTHING
HE DID WAS CALCULATED
FOR EFFECT.

HE KNEW EXACTLY
HOW TO DO IT.

AND HE WAS
A GOOD WRITER.

UH, LINCOLN'S LITERARY
ABILITY IS, UH--

UH, HE'S KNOCKING
AT THE DOOR OF MARK TWAIN.

UH, HE'S
AVERY GREAT WRITER.

THE BEST EXAMPLE I KNOW
OF WHAT A GREAT WRITER IS

THAT WHEN I WAS
IN, UH, THE SCHOOLS

AS A CHILD IN MISSISSIPPI,
I WAS REQUIRED TO

MEMORIZE
THE GETTYSBURG ADDRESS,

AND THE GETTYSBURG
ADDRESS SAYS THAT,

UM, IF THE SOUTH
WON THE WAR,

GOVERNMENT OF, BY,
AND FOR THE PEOPLE WOULD
PERISH FROM THE EARTH.

WHAT IT SAID DIDN'T
HAVE ANYTHING TO DO

WITH WHETHER OR NOT
| WAS REQUIRED TO
MEMORIZE |T.

IT WAS LITERARY SKILL
THAT MADE ME MEMORIZE IT,

AND HE DEMONSTRATED IT
TIME AFTER TIME AGAIN.

EVEN IN INCIDENTAL NOTES
WHICH HE WROTE

THAT HE THOUGHT NO ONE
WOULD EVER SEE,

UH, HIS LITERARY SKILL IS
ALMOST UNBELIEVABLE.

THE--THE DECEMBER 1862
STATE OF UNION MESSAGE
TO CONGRESS

IS ONE
OF THE GREAT PIECES

OF AMERICAN WRITING,
ESPECIALLY THE PERORATION.

HE KNEW WHAT
HE WAS DOING.

WE DIDN'T RECOGNIZE
THAT ON THIS SIDE
OF THE WATER.

IT WAS THE ENGLISH
WHO RECOGNIZED HIM
AS A STYLIST FIRST.

MANY AMERICANS WERE
ASHAMED OF HIS STYLE,

WHICH SOMEONE SAID
IT HAD "THE BARK ON."

UH, HE WROTE AMERICAN,

AND THEY THOUGHT AMERICAN WAS
A LANGUAGE, ALL RIGHT,

IT COULD BE USED
FOR VAUDEVILLE SKITS

OR JOKES,
BUT |T—-D|DN'T THINK

IT BELONGED
IN STATE PAPERS.

AND WHAT LINCOLN WROTE
WAS AMERICAN,

THE SAME KIND OF
AMERICAN THAT MARK TWAIN
WAS TO WRITE LATER.

HE'S A VERY GREAT
LITERARY ARTIST.

I'D LIKE TO DO
ASLATE, PLEASE.

MAN: OK. KEEP ROLLING NOW.

OK.

LINCOLN'S GREATEST SKILL,
WHICH WILL COME TO--

HOLD ON ONE SECOND. HEH.

OK. LET'S--

SLATE.
OK.

WE TALKED A LITTLE
BIT ABOUT LINCOLN.

I THINK THE GREAT
NEGLECTED FIGURE

MAY, IN FACT,
BE JEFFERSON DAVIS IN
THE WHOLE WAR.

TALK TO ME,
TELL ME ABOUT DAVIS.

| ENTERED, UH, THE WRITING
OF THE WAR

WITH MANY MISCONCEPTIONS
ABOUT DAVIS THAT HAD BEEN,

UH, FOSTERED BY SOUTHERNERS,
AS WELL AS NORTHERNERS,

AND PERHAPS MORE
BY SOUTHERNERS.

HE'S, UH, OFTEN
DESCRIBED AS
ABLOODLESS PEDANT,

UH,AMAN WHO FILLED
ALL HIS TIME

WITH SMALL-TIME
PAPERWORK

AND NEVER ANYTHING ELSE,

AN ICY-COLD MAN WHO HAD
NO FRIENDLINESS IN HIM.

I FOUND THE OPPOSITE
TO BE TRUE IN ALL
THOSE RESPECTS.

DAVIS IS AN OUTGOING
FRIENDLY MAN, UH,

AGREAT FAMILY MAN,
LOVED HIS WIFE

AND CHILDREN,

UH, AN INFINITE STORE
OF COMPASSION.

UH, | FORGET
THE FIGURES NOW

ABOUT HOW MANY SOLDIERS
LINCOLN HAD SHOT.

DAVIS, UH, HAD
A BARE HANDFUL.

UH, AND THESE
MISCONCEPTIONS

ABOUT DAVIS ARE
SO STRANGE THAT IT'S

AS IF A GIGANTIC CONSPIRACY
WAS LAUNCHED.

IT WAS PARTLY LAUNCHED
BY SOUTHERNERS,

WHO HAVING LOST THE WAR,
DID NOT WANT TO BLAME |T

ON THEIR GENERALS.

SO THEY BLAMED IT
ON THE POLITICIANS.

AND, OF COURSE, DAVIS
WAS THE CHIEF POLITICIAN.

80 IT WAS
THE SOUTHERNERS

MORE THAN THE NORTHERNERS
WHO V|L|F|ED

JEFFERSON DAVIS.

THE NORTHERNERS
WANTED TO HANG HIM

FROM A SOUR APPLE TREE,

BUT, UH, THE SOUTHERNERS
REALLY TORE HIM DOWN
AFTER THE WAR.

HOW WAS HE AS A--AS
ACHIEF OF STATE?

UH, LEE SAID IT BEST.

HE SAID, UM...

UH, "I DON'T THINK
ANYONE COULD NAME

"ANYONE WHO COULD
HAVE DONE A BETTER JOB
THAN DAVIS DID,

"AND I PERSONALLY
DON'T KNOW OF ANYONE

WHO COULD HAVE DONE
AS GOOD A JOB."

THAT'S FROM
ROBERT E. LEE,

WHICH IS A PRETTY
GOOD AUTHORITY. YEAH.

JACKSON,
STONEWALL JACKSON.

A...A VERY STRANGE MAN.

ONE OF THE AUTHENTIC
GENIUSES OF THE WAR.

UH, GENIUS IS A--
IS A STRANGE QUALITY.

UM, BEDFORD FORREST'S
GRANDDAUGHTER LIVED
HERE IN MEMPHIS.

SHE RECENTLY DIED,
AND I GOT TO KNOW HER.

AND SHE EVEN LET ME
SWING THE GENERAL'S SABER

AROUND MY HEAD ONCE,
WHICH WAS A GREAT TREAT.

AND I THOUGHTA LONG TIME,
AND I CALLED HER

AND SAID, "I THINK THAT
THE WAR PRODUCED TWO
AUTHENTIC GENIUSES.

"ONE OF THEM WAS
YOUR GRANDFATHER,

AND THE OTHER WAS
ABRAHAM LINCOLN."

AND THERE WASASILENCE
AT THE OTHER END OF THE PHONE.

AND SHE SAID, "WELL,
YOU KNOW, IN OUR FAMILY,

WE NEVER THOUGHT MUCH
OF MR. LINCOLN."

HEH. SHE DIDN'T LIKE
MY COUPLING HER GRANDFATHER

WITH ABRA--ABRAHAM LINCOLN
ALL THESE YEARS LATER.

SOUTHERNERS ARE VERY
STRANGE ABOUT THAT WAR.

TELL ME
ABOUT JACKSON.

WHY IS HE A GENIUS?

HE HAD, UH, UH, UH,
THE STRANGE COMBINATION

OF RELIGIOUS FANATICISM
AND A--A--A GLORY IN BATTLE.

HE--HE LOVED BATTLE.

HIS EYES WOULD LIGHT UP.

THEY CALLED HIM,
"OLD BLUE LIGHT"

BECAUSE OF THE WAYS
HIS EYES WOULD

LIGHT UP IN BATTLE.

HE WAS TOTALLY FEARLESS,
HAD NO THOUGHT

WHATSOEVER OF--OF DANGER
AT ANY TIME

WHEN THE BATTLE WAS ON.

AND HE COULD, UH--
HE COULD DEFINE

WHAT HE WANTED TO DO.

HE SAID, "ONCE YOU GET
THEM RUNNING,

"YOU STAY RIGHT
ON TOP OF THEM,

"AND THAT WAY A SMALL
FORCE CAN DEFEAT

A LARGE ONE EVERY TIME."

HE KNEW PERFECTLY
WELL THAT A REPUTATION

FOR VICTORY
WOULD ROLL AND BUILD,

AND, UH, IT WAS JUST
EVERYTHING ABOUT HIM.

HE HAD, UH--HE WAS NOT
A STRICT DISCIPLINARIAN.

HE WOULD SHOOT MEN,
BUT HE DIDN'T CARE

HOW THEY WERE DRESSED,
WHETHER THEY SALUTED PROPERLY,

OR ANY OF THAT
FOOLISHNESS.

STOP, PLEASE.
THERE WAS A RUN-OUT.

PERFECT BECAUSE I'LL
LOOK EXACTLY AT THOSE

RAGTAG MEN AS YOU'RE
SAYING THAT

WITH THE CAMERAS.

YEAH.

THIS IS A CONTINUATION
OF INTERVIEW

WITH SHELBY FOOTE,

SOUND ROLL 3,
PICTURE ROLL 3.

OK. SOUND.

UM, ANYTHING MORE
YOU WANT TO TALK

ABOUT JACKSON,
HOW WE CAN REMEMBER?

HE WAS--HE WAS
ATRUE ECCENTRIC.

UH, HE BELIEVED THAT,
UH, IF HE HAD PEPPER

IN HIS FOOD IT WOULD MAKE
HIS LEFT LEG ACHE.

UH, HE WOULD NEVER MAIL
A LETTER THAT WOULD BE

IN TRANSIT ON A SUNDAY.

HE WAS A STRICT OBSERVER
OF THE SABBATH,

AND YET SO MANY OF HIS
BATTLES WERE FOUGHT

ON SUNDAYS THAT
THE SOLDIERS BEGAN

TO BELIEVE THAT HE
WOULD FIGHT ON SUNDAY,

UH, BECAUSE THE LORD
WOULD BE EVEN MORE WITH HIM.

HE HAD A—-A STRANGE QUALITY
OF OVERLOOKING SUFFERING.

UH, IT WAS, UH, DURING
ONE OF THE BATTLES, HE
HAD AYOUNG COURIER.

AND JACKSON LOOKED
AROUND FOR HIM,

AND HE WASN'T THERE.

AND HE SAID, "WHERE IS
LIEUTENANT SO-AND-SO?"

AND THEY SAID, UH,
"HE WAS KILLED, GENERAL."

JACKSON SAID,
"VERY COMMENDABLE,
VERY COMMENDABLE."

HEH HEH HEH.

AND THEN PUT HIM
OUT OF HIS MIND.

HE WOULD--UM, HE WOULD
SEND MEN STUMBLING

INTO BATTLE, UH,
WHERE FURY WAS,

AND HAVE NO CONCERN
ABOUT CASUALTIES
AT THE MOMENT.

HE WOULD MARCH MEN
UNTIL THEY WERE
SPITTING COTTON

AND WHITE-FACED
AND FELL OUT
BY THE WAYSIDE.

HE WOULDN'T EVEN STOP TO
GLANCE AT ONE OF THEM.

KEPT GOING.

UH, AT SHARPSBURG,
WHEN THE BATTLE--

THERE WAS A LULL
IN THE BATTLE,

AND HE LOOKED OUT
OVER THE CORNFIELD THERE,

WHERE HIS OWN AND ENEMY
DEAD WERE LYING

SO THICK YOU COULD
HAVE WALKED ACROSS IT

WITHOUT TOUCHING
THE GROUND.

HE WAS EATING
A PEACH AT THE TIME,

AND HE SAID, "GOD HAS
BEEN VERY KIND TO US
THIS DAY."

HE'S JUST UNBELIEVABLE,
UH, IN HIS ABILITY TO--

TO NOT BE
AFFECTED BY THINGS.

I'VE SOMETIMES
THOUGHT THAT, UH,

ONE OF THE NECESSARY
EQUIPMENTS OF ASUPERB
MILITARY MAN IS TO BE

A LITTLE STUPID SO THAT
HE WON'T GET JANGLED.

IT'S STRANGE.

NOT THAT HE WAS STUPID.
HE WASN'T.

MAN: SHELBY, JUST GO
LIKE THAT,

JUST BRUSH THAT--
VERY GOOD.

NOW TALK TO
ME ABOUT LEE.

MAN: CHANCELLORSVILLE.

OH, RIGHT, BEFORE
YOU GO INTO LEE,

THE LOSS AT
CHANCELLORSVILLE,
WHAT HAPPENED?

WHAT HAPPENED WAS
JACKSON GOT SHOT
FOR ONE THING.

THE--THE REAL FAULT AT--
AT CHANCELLORSVILLE WAS

THE ATTACK WAS STAGED
SO LATE IN THE DAY THAT

THEY WERE NOT ABLE
TO PUSH IT,

UH, TO THE EXTENT THAT
JACKSON HAD INTENDED TO.

AND HE WAS EVEN
ATTEMPTING TO MAKE
A NIGHT ATTACK,

AVERY RARE THING
IN THE CIVIL WAR,

BECAUSE HE KNEW THAT
HE HADN'T FINISHED UP

WHAT HE HAD
STARTED TO BEGIN.

BUT CHANCELLORSVILLE
IN MANY WAYS IS

LEE'S MASTERPIECE.

UH, IT'S WHERE
THE ODDS WERE LONGEST.

IT'S WHERE HE TOOK
THE GREATEST RISK

IN DIVIDING HIS ARMY
IN THE PRESENCE

OF A SUPERIOR ENEMY,

AND, UH, KEPT
THE PRESSURE ON.

BUT AT THE COST
OF JACKSON.

AT THE COST OF JACKSON,
WHICH LEE SAID WAS

TOO GREAT A COST
TO BEAR IN ANY CASE,

AND IT WAS.

HE SAID LATER,
LONG AFTER THE WAR,

"IF I HAD HAD
STONEWALL JACKSON
WITH ME AT GETTYSBURG,

I WOULD HAVE WON
THAT BATTLE."

UH, I DON'T
BELIEVE THAT'S TRUE.

UH, I BELIEVE THAT
THE BATTLE WOULDN'T HAVE

BEEN FOUGHT AT GETTYSBURG IF
HE'D HAD JACKSON

BECAUSE THEY WOULD
HAVE TAKEN THAT POSITION,

AND THE UNION
WOULD HAVE FALLEN BACK

TO PIKE CREEK,
WHERE THEY PREPARED
TO FIGHT ANYHOW.

LET'S TALK ABOUT LEE,
TALK ABOUT THE MAN.

LEE IS ONE, UH,
OF THE MOST DIFFICULT PEOPLE

TO TALK ABOUT BECAUSE
HE'S BEEN IMMORTALIZED,

OR AS THEY CALL HIM NOW,
SOME PEOPLE,

"THE MARBLE MAN."

HE'S BEEN DEHUMANIZED

BY THE GLORY
AND THE WORSHIP.

UH, HE--HE WAS A WARM,
OUTGOING MAN,

ALWAYS HAD TIME
FOR ANY PRIVATE
SOLDIER'S COMPLAINT.

UH, ONCE A NORTHERN SOLDIER
BEING MARCHED

TO THE REAR AS
A PRISONER COMPLAINED

TO LEE IN PERSON THAT
SOMEONE HAD TAKEN HIS HAT,

AND HE SAID,
"THAT MAN GOT IT."

AND LEE MADE THE MAN
GIVE HIM HIS HAT BACK.

HE COULD, UH--
HE--HE COULD SHOW, UH,

HIS KINDNESS
IN SO MANY WAYS.

HE WAS A--HE WAS
ATRUE GENTLEMAN,

WHICH IS AN EXPLANATION
FOR A LOT OF THE THINGS
ABOUT LEE.

HE HAD VERY
LITTLE HUMOR,

BUT HE DID HAVE
ASORT OF SENSE
OF THE RIDICULOUS,

AND, UH, HE LIKED FUN.

HE WAS, UH--HE WAS
HAVING DINNER ONE NIGHT,

AND HE INVITED AYOUNG
LIEUTENANT FROM--

AMESSENGER WHO
HAD COME IN

TO SIT DOWN
AND HAVE IT WITH HIM,

AND, UH, THE YOUNG
MAN DIDN'T LIKE
THE HEAVY CORNBREAD.

AND LEE SAID,
"DON'T WORRY ABOUT THAT.

IT'LL STAY
BY YOU LONGER."

HEH HEH HEH.

HE HAD, UH--HE HAD
THAT QUALITY TO HIM.

HOW COULD A MAN LIKE
LEE GIVE UP COUNTRY
FOR STATE?

HE DIDN'T GIVE UP
COUNTRY FOR STATE.

UH, HE CONSIDERED
VIRGINIA HIS COUNTRY.

HE OFTEN SPOKE
OF VIRGINIAAS
"MY COUNTRY."

HE SAID, "HOW COULD
| FIGHT AGAINST
MY COUNTRY?"

MEANING VIRGINIA.

DURING THE CIVIL RIGHTS
UPHEAVAL BACK IN THE--

IN THE FIFTIES AND SIXTIES
AND ON INTO THE SEVENTIES,

WILLIAM FAULKNER USED
TO OFTEN SAY, UH,

"LEAVE ME GROUND
TO STAND ON.

"YOU DIDN'T LEAVE
ROBERT E. LEE

"ANY GROUND
TO STAND ON,

"AND YOU HAD A LOT
OF OCCASION

FOR REGRETTING IT."

WHEN LEE HAD TO CHOOSE
BETWEEN THE NATION
AND VIRGINIA,

THERE WAS NEVER
ANY CHOICE--

ANY DOUBT ABOUT WHAT
HIS CHOICE WOULD BE.

HE WENT WITH HIS STATE.

HE SAID, "I CAN'T DRAW
MY SWORD AGAINST

MY NATIVE STATE,"
OR--ORAS HE OFTEN SAID,

"MY COUNTRY."

IS HE THE GREATEST
GENERAL THAT'S
EVER LIVED?

UH, | DON'T--| DON'T
KNOW THAT HE IS.

UM, HE--HE IS
AVERY GREAT GENERAL.

AND, UH, HE--HE'S SUPERB
ON BOTH THE OFFENSIVE
AND THE DEFENSIVE.

UH, HE TOOK LONG CHANCES,
BUT HE TOOK THEM
BECAUSE HE HAD TO.

IF GRANT HAD NOT HAD
SUPERIOR NUMBERS,

HE MIGHT HAVE TAKEN CHANCES
AS LONG AS LEE TOOK.

THE ONLY WAY TO WIN
WAS WITH LONG CHANCES,

AND IT MADE
HIM BRILLIANT.

UH, BUT PART OF IT
CAME FROM THE NEED
FOR LONG CHANCES,

BUT HE WAS WONDERFUL.

UM, HE--HE SAID
HE LEARNED THIS

FROM GENERAL SCOTT.

HE SAID, "| BRING
THE MEN TOGETHER
ON THE FIELD,

AND WHAT HAPPENS
ON THE FIELD IS UP TO THEM."

HE DIDN'T BELIEVE
IN GETTING DOWN IN THERE

AND SAYING, "NO, DON'T
DO THAT, DO THIS."

HE--HE STOOD BACK
AND WATCHED IT.

COULD YOU COMPARE
THIS ARISTOCRAT

WITH THE SHABBY
"PRIVATE COAT" GRANT?

YES.
|N--|N SOME SENSE,

UH, LEE REPRESENTED
THE BEST

OF THE CAVALIER
TRADITION,

AND GRANT REPRESENTED
PRETTY CLOSE

TO THE WORST
OF THE PURITAN TRADITION,

AND YET WHEN THEY'RE
FACE TO FACE

IN THAT APPOMATTOX, UH,
COURTHOUSE HOUSE,

UH, GRANT, UH,
LOOKS MIGHTY GOOD.

HEnHEnHEnHE
LOOKSASFWE.

HE'S MUDDY,
MUD-SPATTERED,
AND EVERYTHING ELSE,

BUT HE'S AT LEAST
A MUCH A GENTLEMAN AS LEE.

UH, THAT'S--THAT'S,
UH, GRANT AT HIS VERY BEST.

A QUALITY OF LEE'S THAT
SHOULD BE MENTIONED IS,

UH, PROBABLY HIS FINEST
HOUR WAS,

UH, AFTER THE REPULSE
OF PICKETT'S CHARGE

ON THE THIRD DAY
AT GETTYSBURG.

HE WALKED OUT
IN THE FIELD,

MET THE MEN RETREATING,

AND SAID,
"IT IS ALL MY FAULT."

AND HE TOLD THEM THAT.

HE WROTE TO THE GOVERNMENT,
TO JEFFERSON DAVIS,

AND SAID,
"IT WAS ALL MY FAULT.

"| ASKED MORE OF MEN
THAN SHOULD HAVE BEEN

ASKED OF THEM."

THIS WILLINGNESS TO TAKE
BLAME IS JUST SO RARE

AS TO--|T—-|T STANDS
OUT, UH, ENORMOUSLY.

AND THAT'S ANOTHER
QUALITY TO HIM.

HE, UM--HE HAD A--
ANOTHER SIDE TO HIM THAT

PEOPLE DON'T PAY
MUCH ATTENTION TO.

HE HAD A GOOD WAY
OF DEALING WITH INCOMPETENTS.

HE SENT THEM OUT
OF HIS ARMY,

USUALLY TO
THE TRANS-MISSISSIPPI,

BUT, UH, HE--HE--HE--
HE DID THAT.

HE--HE WAS A--
A GOOD ADMINISTRATOR,

AND--AND THAT'S NOT
USUALLY PAID MUCH
ATTENTION TO.

HE WAS A SUPERB
INTELLIGENCE OFFICER.

HE READ NORTHERN PAPERS
ASSIDUOUSLY.

HE, UM, QUESTIONED
PRISONERS ON OCCASION.

UM, HE KNEW HOW
TO PUT HIMSELF

IN ANOTHER MAN'S MIND.

HE KNEW WHAT GRANT
WAS GOING TO DO BECAUSE

HE COULD MAKE HIMSELF
GRANT FOR LONG ENOUGH

TO FIGURE OUT WHAT GRANT
WOULD DO IN A SITUATION.

WHEN, UH, THEY FIRED,
LET'S SEE,

5 OR 6 GENERALS
BEFORE THEY GOT TO GRANT,

AND BY THE TIME THEY LET
MCCLELLAN GO, LEE SAID,

"I AM AFRAID THEY'RE
GOING TO KEEP MAKING

"THESE CHANGES
UNTIL THEY GET SOMEONE

I DON'T UNDERSTAND."

DID THEY?

UH, THEY NEVER
GOT ANYONE HE
DIDN'T UNDERSTAND,

BUT, UH, THEY FINALLY
GOT GRANT,

WHO KNEW HOW
TO WHIP HIM AND DID.

SO GRANT BEAT
THE GREATEST GENERAL
WHO HAS EVER LIVED.

HE DID, INDEED.

HE DID IT WITH SUPERIOR
NUMBERS AND DOGGEDNESS.

KEPT GOING,
MOVE BY THE LEFT FLANK,

MOVE BY THE LEFT FLANK,
MOVE BY THE LEFT FLANK,

AND LEE'S BACKING UP
THE WHOLE TIME,

LOSING MEN THAT
HE COULDN'T REPLACE.

HOW WILL
WE REMEMBER GRANT?

HOW SHOULD WE REMEMBER
GRANT THE--THE GENERAL?

GRANT THE GENERAL HAS,
UH, MANY QUALITIES,

BUT HE HAD, UH, ATHING
THAT'S VERY NECESSARY

FOR A GREAT GENERAL.

HE HAD WHAT THEY CALL

"4:00 IN THE MORNING
COURAGE."

YOU COULD WAKE HIM UP
AT 4:00 IN THE MORNING

AND TELL HIM THAT THEY
HAD JUST TURNED

HIS RIGHT FLANK,
AND HE WOULD BE

AS COOL AS A CUCUMBER.

HE HAD AN ABILITY
TO CONCENTRATE.

AGOOD EXAMPLE OF THAT IS
HE WOULD BE WORKING

AT HIS DESK,
BENT OVER WRITING,

AND HE WOULD NEED
SOMETHING ACROSS THE ROOM,

A DOCUMENT OR SOMETHING.

HE WOULD GET UP
AND NEVER GET OUT

OF THAT CROUCHED POSITION,
GO OVER THERE,

AND PICK UP
THE DOCUMENT HE NEEDED,

COME BACK TO HIS DESK,
AND SIT DOWN AGAIN

WITHOUT EVER HAVING
STRAIGHTENED UP.

JUST AN EXAMPLE OF HOW
HE COULD CONCENTRATE.

WHAT ARE SOME MOMENTS
WITH GRANT YOU'D

LIKE US TO REMEMBER?

WHERE DO YOU PICTURE HIM
WHEN YOU THINK OF HIM?

|T--|T'S BECAUSE
IT'S SO UNUSUAL,

BUT GRANT IN THE WILDERNESS
AFTER THAT FIRST NIGHT

IN THE WILDERNESS,
WENT TO HIS TENT,

BROKE DOWN,
AND CRIED VERY HARD.

UH, SOME OF THE STAFF
MEMBERS SAID THEY'D

NEVER SEEN
A MAN 80 UNSTRUNG.

WELL, HE DIDN'T CRY
UNTIL THE BATTLE WAS OVER,

AND HE WASN'T CRYING
WHEN IT BEGAN AGAIN
NEXT DAY.

IT'S JUST SHOWS YOU
THE TENSION THAT HE LIVED

WITHOUT--W|THOUT
LETTING IT AFFECT HIM.

RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE
OF THE BATTLE
OF THE WILDERNESS,

ALL THE STAFF MEN
WHO HAD BEEN FIGHTING

IN THE EAST
ALL THIS TIME--

AND HE HAD JUST COME
FROM THE WEST--

KEPT TALKING ABOUT,
"BOBBY LEE, BOBBY LEE.

HE WILL DO THIS
AND DO THAT OTHER."

AND GRANT FINALLY
TOLD THEM, "I'M TIRED

"OF HEARING
ABOUT BOBBY LEE.

"YOU'D THINK HE
WAS GOING TO DO
ADOUBLE SOMERSAULT

"AND LAND IN OUR REAR.

"QUIT THINKING
ABOUT WHAT HE'S
GOING TO DO TO YOU

"AND THINK
ABOUT WHAT YOU'RE
GOING TO DO TO HIM.

BRING SOME GUNS
UP HERE,"

THINGS LIKE THAT.

GRANT'S, UH--
HE'S WONDERFUL.

WHAT ABOUT ALCOHOL?

GRANT NEVER GOT
DRUNK WHEN HIS
WIFE WAS AROUND.

IT WAS ONLY TWO
CONDITIONS GRANT
WOULD DRINK UNDER.

ONE WAS HIS WIFE
WASN'T THERE,

AND THE OTHER
WAS THERE WASN'T
ANYTHING GOING ON.

HE WENT ON
ATRUE BENDER DURING
THE VICKSBURG CAMPAIGN,

BUT IT WAS WHEN
NOTHING WAS HAPPENING.

IT WAS AS IF HE, UH--
WHETHER THERE WAS

ANYTHING SEXUAL
ABOUT HIS WIFE BEING

OUT OF TOUCH,
I'M NOT TOO SURE ABOUT,

BUT I DO KNOW THAT IT
WAS, UH, BOREDOM

THAT WOULD--THAT WOULD
MAKE HIM DRINK.

LET'S DO A SLATE.

AND THERE WAS NO INSTANCE
OF HIS DRINKING

DURING THAT LAST
CAMPAIGN AGAINST LEE.

THIS IS, UH,
CONTINUATION
OF INTERVIEW

WITH SHELBY FOOTE,
SOUND ROLL NUMBER 4,
CAMERA ROLL NUMBER 4.

UM, I GUESS LET'S
TALK ABOUT SHERMAN

BECAUSE IN SOME WAY
HE'S THE COUNTERPART

TO JACKSON IN THAT
HE'S THE UNION'S

GREAT LIEUTENANT.

TALK ABOUT HIM.

SHERMAN WAS NOT MUCH
ON A FIELD OF FIGHTING,

BUT HE WAS A SUPERB,
UH, STRATEGIST.

UM, HE WOULD SET THINGS UP
SO THAT HE WAS GOING TO WIN

NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENED
ON THE FIELD.

AND HE WAS NOT REALLY,
UH, AN INSPIRED
BATTLEFIELD COMMANDER,

BUT HE WAS, UH, SUPERB
IN ORGANIZING

WHAT HE WAS ABOUT.

SHERMAN, AND GRANT, TOO,
BUT SHERMAN IS MAYBE

THE FIRST TRULY
MODERN GENERAL.

HE WAS THE FIRST ONE
TO UNDERSTAND

IN THE PRESENT-DAY WORLD
THAT CIVILIANS WERE

THE BACKERS-UP
OF THINGS

AND THAT IF YOU WENT
AGAINST THE CIVILIANS

YOU DEPRIVE THE ARMY
OF WHAT KEPT IT GOING.

SO HE QUITE PURPOSELY
MADE WAR AGAINST CIVILIANS,

WHICH WAS A--
A—-A KIND OF THING THAT

WOULD MAKE ROBERT E. LEE
TURN OVER IN HIS GRAVE

IF HE HEARS
ABOUT IT TODAY.

UH, BUT HE--HE HAD
THE REAL NOTION.

HE SAW FROM THE
VERY BEGINNING

HOW HARD A WAR
IT WAS GOING TO BE,

AND WHEN HE SAID HOW HARD
AWAR IT WAS GOING TO BE,

HE WAS, UH, RETIRED
UNDER SUSPICION
OF INSANITY

AND THEN BROUGHT BACK
WHEN THEY DECIDED

MAYBE HE WASN'T
SO CRAZY AFTER ALL,

BUT SHERMAN SAW
FROM THE START

HOW TOUGH IT
WAS GOING TO BE.

SHERMAN, UH, HAD
HAD MANY EXPERIENCES
IN THE SOUTH.

AS AYOUNG OFFICER,
HE WAS STATIONED
IN CHARLESTON.

HE LIKED IT VERY MUCH.

AT THE TIME THE WAR
STARTED, HE WAS,

UH, HEAD OF WHAT IS NOW
LSU IN LOUISIANA,

AND, UH, SO HE--HE--HE
HAD GREAT SYMPATHY

WITH A LOT
OF SOUTHERN THINGS.

UM, HE'LL MAKE
YOUR HAIR STAND ON END,

HIS ATTITUDE
TOWARD THE NEGRO
AND SLAVERY QUESTION.

UH, HE DID NOT WANT
TO USE BLACK TROOPS.

AND SOMEONE SAID, "HE'LL
STOP A--A BULLET JUST AS
WELL A WHITE MAN,"

AND SHERMAN SAID,
"AND A SANDBAG

WILL DO BETTER
THAN EITHER."

THIS--THAT'S
CHARACTERISTIC
OF SHERMAN, TOO.

LET'S--LET'S TALK
ABOUT SOME BATTLES NOW,

AND LET'S TALK ABOUT
ONE THAT'S CLOSE TO US
HERE, SHILOH.

TELL ME ABOUT IT.

WHAT SHOULD WE NEED TO
REMEMBER ABOUT SHILOH?

THE MOST IMPORTANT THING
ABOUT SHILOH IS IT WAS

THE FIRST BIG BATTLE.

IT WAS THE FIRST GREAT,
BLOODY BATTLE.

UH, FIRST MANASSAS,
OR BULL RUN, AS IT'S
SOMETIMES CALLED,

UH, WAS NOTHING
COMPARED TO SHILOH.

THE THING ABOUT SHILOH
TO UNDERSTAND IS THAT

THAT THIS--THIS MASS
OF EVENTUALLY

100,000 MEN WERE ENGAGED
IN A GREAT BIG
ARMED FISTFIGHT.

UH, THE GENERALS
DIDN'T KNOW THEIR JOBS.

THE SOLDIERS DIDN'T
KNOW THEIR JOBS.

IT WAS JUST PURE
DETERMINATION TO STAND

AND FIGHT
AND NOT RETREAT,

AND THE BLOODINESS
OF IT WAS JUST

ASTOUNDING
TO EVERYONE.

IT ALSO CORRECTED
A SOUTHERN MISCONCEPTION

WHICH HAD SAID ONE GOOD
SOUTHERN SOLDIER

IS WORTH
10 YANKEE HIRELINGS.

THEY FOUND OUT THAT WASN'T
TRUE BY A LONG SHOT.

AND GRANT, SHORTLY
BEFORE SHILOH, SAID,

"| CONSIDER THIS WAR
PRACTICALLY OVER.

THEY'RE READY
TO GIVE UP."

AND THE DAY AFTER
SHILOH, HE SAID,

"I SAW THAT IT WAS GOING
TO HAVE TO BE AWAR

OF CONQUEST
IF WE WERE TO WIN."

SHILOH DID THAT.

AND IT, UH, SOBERED
THE NATION UP SOMETHING

AWFUL TO THE REALIZATION
THAT THEY HAD

AVERY BLOODY AFFAIR
ON THEIR HANDS.

AND IT CALLED
FOR A HUGE REASSESSMENT

OF WHAT THIS THING WAS
GOING TO BE.

WHAT'S A PARTICULARLY
DRAMATIC MOMENT
IN SHILOH?

I THINK OF GRANT
WITH HIS BACK TO THE--

UH, GRANT IS WONDERFULLY
DRAMATIC ALL THE WAY
THROUGH IT.

HE HAD A BADLY
SPRAINED ANKLE,

AND HE HAD TO RIDE
HIS HORSE WITH A CRUTCH

STRAPPED TO THE SADDLE
LIKE A CARBINE,

AND HE'S
ALL OVER THE FIELD.

SHERMAN WAS WOUNDED
TWICE DURING THE BATTLE.

UH, TO ME, THE MOST
DRAMATIC MOMENT PROBABLY

IS THE WOUNDING AND DEATH
OF ALBERT SYDNEY JOHNSTON,

UH, IN A CHARGE
ON THE PEACH ORCHARD,
WHICH HE LED.

UH, HE CAME OUT OF IT
WITH, UH, BITS

OF HIS CLOTHING
NICKED ALL UP.

ONE BOOT SOLE
WAS SHOT IN HALF,

AND HE FLAPPED HIS,
UH--ON HORSEBACK THERE

AND SAID, "THEY DIDN'T
TRIP ME UP THAT TIME."

AND VERY SOON AFTER THAT
|T--THEY SAW HIM REEL

IN THE SADDLE
AND REALIZED HE WAS HURT.

AND THEN SOMEONE
SAID, "GENERAL, ARE
YOU WOUNDED?"

AND HE SAID, "YES,
AND I FEAR SERIOUSLY."

AND HE WAS SHOT
BEHIND THE KNEE

IN THE FEMORAL ARTERY,
ISUPPOSE,

AND BLED TO DEATH.

THEY SAW BLOOD COMING
OUT OF HIS BOOT,

AND HE COULD HAVE
BEEN EASILY SAVED
WITH ATOURNIQUET,

BUT HE HAD SENT HIS--
HIS SURGEON OFF

TO TAKE CARE
OF SOME FEDERAL PRISONERS.

UH, AND IT WAS
A—-A--A NEEDLESS LOSS.

THROUGHOUT THE WAR--
I'M SORT OF GOING

TO DIGRESS
FOR ONE MOMENT.

THROUGHOUT THE WAR,
ALL THESE INSTANCES

OF THE COMMUNICATION
BETWEEN TROOPS

AND REAL CAMARADERIE,
ONE SIDE TO THE OTHER.

YEP.

WHAT ARE YOU FAVORITE
STORIES IN THAT?

OH, LORD, THERE ARE
SO MANY OF THEM.

THERE ARE SO MANY OF THEM.

AT FREDERICKSBURG,
THERE WAS A--AN EXCHANGE

ACROSS THE RAPPAHANNOCK.

UH, ONE OF THEM
HOLLERED, "HEY, REB,"

AND THEY SAID, "YEAH?"

"WHEN ARE YOU FELLAS
GOING TO COME OVER?"

THEY SAID, "WHEN WE
GET GOOD AND READY.

WHAT DO YOU WANT?"

AND HE SAID,
"WANT FREDERICKSBURG."

"DON'T YOU WISH,
YOU MAY GET IT."

AND THINGS LIKE THAT.

THERE WERE A LOT
OF THOSE EXCHANGES.

THERE WAS, UH, SWAPPING.

UH, THE SOUTHERNERS
HAD TOBACCO,

AND THE NORTHERNERS
HAD COFFEE.

SO THEY USED TO
EXCHANGE THOSE THINGS
DURING TRUCES.

IT'S INTERESTING.
IT'S POIGNANT.

IT IS, INDEED.

UM, THE THING
ABOUT THE CIVIL WAR

THAT STRIKES ME, UH,
AS BEING MOST UNUSUAL IS,

WAR IS A SAVAGE AFFAIR,
AND CIVIL WARS

ARE THE MOST
SAVAGE AFFAIRS.

THE SHOOTING
OF PRISONERS, FOR INSTANCE,

IS QUITE USUAL
DURING A--DURING A CIVIL WAR,

LOTS OF RAPES,
AND THINGS LIKE THAT

DURING CIVIL WARS.

PRACTICALLY NONE
OF EITHER OF THOSE,

UH, IN OUR CIVIL WAR.

AND SHERMAN'S MARCH
THROUGH GEORGIA,

FOR INSTANCE, UH,
YOU WOULD EXPECT

THERE'D BE ALL KIND
OF RAPES AND THINGS.

I KNOW OF NO SINGLE CASE
OF RAPE DURING THE WHOLE
MARCH THROUGH GEORGIA.

THERE MUST HAVE BEEN,
BUT I'VE NEVER
HEARD OF ONE.

WHY DID THAT HAPPEN?

IT HAD SOMETHING TO DO
WITH THE THING WE WERE

TALKING ABOUT EARLIER,
ABOUT THE TIMES.

IT WAS THE SIMPLICITY
AND THE GENIALITY

OR SOMETHING
RESEMBLING THAT

AND A NOTION
OF MANNERS.

UH, THAT'S
HARD TO BELIEVE.

UH, HERE YOU HAVE,
UH, THE CONFEDERATE ARMY

WAS PERHAPS AT LEAST
1/3 |LL|TERATE

AND THE NORTHERN
ARMY PERHAPS, UH--
PERHAPS AS MANY.

AND YET THERE WAS
A KIND OF, UH--

OF, UH, MANNERS
TO PEOPLE THAT, UH--

THAT, UH, I THINK HAD
A LOT TO DO WITH THAT.

BUT WHEN YOU CONTRAST IT
WITH, OH, A MODERN CIVIL WAR

LIKE THE SPANISH CIVIL WAR
IN THE THIRTIES,

THEY SHOT PRISONERS
REGULARLY ON BOTH SIDES,

UH, BECAUSE THE FEELINGS
WERE SO INTENSE

IN A CIVIL WAR.

IT'S LIKE TWO
BROTHERS FIGHTING.

YOU'LL NEVER SEE
A MORE SAVAGE FIGHT

THAN TWO BROTHERS
CAN HAVE.

THEY PICK UP
ANYTHING HANDY.

WELL, SPEAKING
OF SAVAGE,

LET ME GET BACK
ON TRACK AND ASK YOU

ABOUT
NATHAN BEDFORD FORREST?

WELL, YOU, YOU'RE ASKING
ABOUT THE MOST MAN
IN THE WORLD

IN SOME WAYS.

UM, FORREST WAS
A--A--A NATURAL GENIUS.

SOMEONE SAID THAT HE WAS
BORN TO BE A SOLDIER

THE WAY JOHN KEATS
WAS BORN TO BE A POET.

UH, HE HAD SOME
BASIC PRINCIPLES,

THAT WHEN YOU TRANSLATE THEM,
THEY--THEY FIT RIGHT

INTO THE ARMY MANUAL.

WHEN HE SAID, "GET THERE
FIRST WITH THE MOST MEN,"

UH, HE'S SAYING
TAKE THE INTERIOR LINES

AND BRING SUPERIOR
FORCE TO BEAR.

UM, HE HAD SOME
VERY SIMPLE THINGS.

HE USED TO SAY,
"HIT THEM ON THE END,"

AND HE'D SAY,
"KEEP UP THE SCARE."

AND THESE ARE ALL
GOOD MILITARY PRINCIPLES

EXPRESSED
IN FORREST'S OWN WAY.

AND HE WAS ABLE TO LOOK
ATA PIECE OF GROUND
AND SEE HOW TO USE IT.

HE HAD A MARVELOUS SENSE
OF TOPOGRAPHY.

UH, HE--HE COULD
SEE THE--THE--THE--
THE KEY TO A POSITION

AND KNOW WHERE TO HIT.

HE COULD ALSO SEE WHAT
THE OTHER FELLOW

WAS GOING TO DO
AND KNOW HOW TO--

HOW TO COUNTERACT
THAT--THAT ACTION.

HE, UM--HE WAS
ONLY SURPRISED
IN BATTLE ONCE.

IT WAS A PLACE CALLED
PARKER'S CROSSROADS UP
IN TENNESSEE.

IT WAS ON A RAID.

AND HE WAS, UH, CLOSING
IN ON AN OPPONENT

AND FIXING TO FINISH HIM
OFF WHEN HE WAS ATTACKED

IN THE REAR BY A FORCE
THAT HE HAD--

DID NOT SUSPECT WAS
WITHIN MANY MILES.

AND EVERYBODY WAS
TERRIBLY UPSET AND SAID,

"GENERAL, WHAT
SHALL WE DO?"

AND HE SAID, "SPLIT
IN TWO AND CHARGE BOTH WAYS."

HA HA! AND DID
AND GOT OUT!

DIDN'T HE HAVE TROUBLE
KEEPING HIS HORSES?

HE HAD 30 HORSES
SHOT FROM UNDER HIM

IN THE COURSE
OF THE WAR,

AND HE KILLED 31 MEN
IN HAND-TO-HAND COMBAT,

AND HE SAID, "| WAS
A HORSE AHEAD AT THE END."

AND WHAT ABOUT
THE STORY OF THE MAN

WHO TRIED TO--
WHO SHOT HIM?

TELL THAT STORY.

THAT'S A--THAT'S
A RATHER SAD STORY.

IT WAS SAD FOR FORREST.

UH, THERE WAS AYOUNG
LIEUTENANT ON HIS STAFF.

HIS NAME WAS GOULD,

AND, UH, FORREST HAD,
UH, REPRIMANDED HIM

FOR CONDUCT IN BATTLE.

AND, UH, THE MAN DIDN'T
TAKE THAT VERY WELL.

UH, NOBODY WOULD,
IN THOSE DAYS,

AND HE RESENTED
IT VERY MUCH,

AND HE BROODED OVER IT
AND BROODED OVER IT

AND CAME INTO FORREST'S
OFFICE, WHERE FORREST

WAS SITTING
AT A DESK, UH,

WORKING ON SOME PAPERS.

AND, UH, THE LIEUTENANT
CAME IN AND STOOD
IN FRONT OF THE DESK.

AND FORREST LOOKED
UP AND SAID,
"WHAT DO YOU WANT?"

AND HE SAID, "I WANT YOU
TO KNOW I RESENT

YOUR ASPERSIONS
ON ME AS A"--

AND FORREST SAID,
"|--| HAVEN'T GOT ANY TIME
TO TRUCK WITH YOU."

AND IT MADE THE BOY SO
MAD THAT HE PULLED OUT

A PISTOL AND SHOT FORREST.

AND FORREST HAD ON HIS
DESKA PEN KNIFE

WHICH HE WAS TURNING
WHILE HE TALKED.

AND HE REACHED ACROSS,
HAVING BEEN SHOT,

AND GRABBED THE YOUNG MAN
AND PULLED HIM

OVER THE DESK
AND WITH THE OTHER HAND

OPENED THE PEN KNIFE
WITH HIS TEETH

AND CARVED HIM UP
WITH IT

AND THEN TURNED
HIM LOOSE.

AND THE MAN STAGGERED OUT,
AND HE WENT ACROSS
THE STREET,

JUST A MATTER OF FACT
INTO A STORE THERE,

AND THEY LAID HIM OUT
ON ACOUNTER.

AND THE DOCTOR CAME
TO SEE FORREST

AND PRONOUNCED
THE WOUND MORTAL.

THEY SAID, "GENERAL,
YOU'RE GOING TO DIE."

AND FORREST SAID,
"HOW--HOW IS THE LIEUTENANT?"

AND THEY SAID,
"THEY'VE GOT HIM ACROSS
THE STREET OVER THERE.

THEY THINK HE'LL
BE ALL RIGHT."

AND FORREST SAID,
"BY GOD, NO MAN CAN
KILL ME AND LIVE."

HEH HEH. AND WENT OUT
OF THE HOUSE

AND INTO THE STORE
ACROSS THE STREET
TO FINISH HIM OFF,

AND THEY MANAGED TO--TO
KEEP HIM FROM GETTING
HOLD OF HIM,

BUT, UH,
THE LIEUTENANT DIED,

AND FORREST, UH, ALWAYS
REGRETTED THAT THAT
HAPPENED THAT WAY.

HE WAS SORRY
FOR IT AFTERWARDS,

BUT IN BATTLE,
OR IN ANGER,

FORREST COULD TURNED--
ONE DESCRIPTION OF IT,

HE LOOKED LIKE
HEATED BRONZE.

HE WAS A--HE WAS
AVERY DANGEROUS MAN

TO BE CLOSE TO
IN BATTLE.

HE WORE--HE HAD
A—-A SABER,

WHICH AGAINST
ALL REGULATIONS,

WAS SHARPENED
LIKE A RAZOR.

AND HE USED TO SWING
IT ALL AROUND HIS HEAD

WHILE HE WAS CHARGING.

AND SO THAT YOU HAD
TO BE--BE AT LEAST

5 FEET FROM HIM,
OR YOU'D GET CUT YOURSELF,

NO MATTER WHICH
SIDE YOU WERE ON.

HE WAS, UH--HE'S, UH,
VERY NEARLY UNBELIEVABLE,
FORREST IS.

HE'S SO--HE'S 80 GREAT.

HE'S WONDERFUL.

RUN-OUT. NO SLATE.

MAN: ON THE WORD "GREAT."

"GREAT."

SOUND ROLL NUMBER 5,
PICTURE ROLL
NUMBER 5,

"THE CIVIL WAR,"
CONTINUATION

OF INTERVIEW
WITH SHELBY FOOTE.

UM, ITHINKA REALLY
IMPORTANT QUESTION,

SERIOUS QUESTION IS
WHEN DID THE SOUTH LOSE

THE WAR, AT WHAT POINT?

WHAT WAS
THE TURNING POINT?

UH...THERE NEVER IS REALLY
ATURNING POINT.

YOU CAN'T IDENTIFY ONE,

BUT IF I WERE--HAD
THUMB SCREWS APPLIED

AND HAD TO NAME ONE,
I THINK IT WOULD
BE DONELSON,

THAT EARLY IN THE WAR.

UH, DONELSON LOST
ALL OF KENTUCKY,

MOST OF TENNESSEE.

IT SAW THE EMERGENCE
OF GRANT AND FORREST.

UH, IT'S, IT IS WHEN
THAT NORTHERN JUGGERNAUT
BEGAN TO ROLL,

AND SHILOH WAS
AN ATTEMPT TO STOP IT,

A DESPERATE ATTEMPT
TO STOP IT,

AND THAT FAILED,

AND FROM THEN ON,
THE WAR IN THE WEST |S--

IS A--A CONTINUOUS ADVANCE,

AND IT'S MY BELIEF
THAT THE WAR IN THE WEST

IS AT LEAST AS IMPORTANT
AS THE ONE IN THE EAST.

UH, THERE IS
AGENERAL OPINION,

BECAUSE OF THE AMOUNT
WRITING DONE ON IT

AND THE AMOUNT
OF TOURIST VISITS,

THAT THE WAR WAS FOUGHT
IN VIRGINIA

WHILE WE WERE SKIRMISHING
OUT IN THIS DIRECTION.

I DON'T THINK THAT
THE OPPOSITE IS TRUE,

BUT I THINK IT'S
CLOSER TO THE TRUTH,

AND IT'S GOING TO TAKE
A STUDY OF THE WESTERN
CAMPAIGNS

IF YOU REALLY WANT TO
UNDERSTAND THE WAR.

THEY SHOULD BE
STUDIED AND UNDERSTOOD

AT LEAST AS MUCH AS
THE EASTERN CAMPAIGNS.

AND THE WAR WAS ALSO
FOUGHT FAR WEST.

GET--YOU KNOW, PEOPLE
DON'T REALIZE THAT--

WHERE WAS
THE WAR FOUGHT?

IN 10,000--

YOU HAD 1,000-MILE LONG,
UH, FIGHTING LINE

THAT RAN ON ACROSS
MISSOURI, FOR INSTANCE,

AND IT, UH, SKIPPED
ALL THE WAY OUT

TO WHAT'S
NOW NEW MEXICO.

THERE WAS SERIOUS
FIGHTING OUT THERE

IN VALVERDE AND THOSE
THINGS OUT THERE.

INCIDENTALLY, I HOPE YOU
WILL HAVE SPACE FOR THAT
NEW MEXICO CAMPAIGN.

IT'S A--A MIRACLE
OF A DRAMATIC THING.

WHAT ARE THE OTHER
TURNING POINTS?

TH EY—-TH EY REALLY
ARE ALMOST ALL
TURNING POINTS.

THESE HUGE BATTLES
CAN'T BE ANYTHING
BUT TURNING POINTS.

CERTAINLY THE LOSS
OF VICKSBURG
AND THE MISSISSIPPI RIVER

IS ONE OF THEM.

UH, GETTYSBURG IS
CERTAINLY ANOTHER.

SHARPSBURG
FOR ITS OWN REASONS

IS A PARTICULAR
TURNING POINT

BECAUSE
THE BRITISH CABINET

WAS IN SESSION AND WAS
ABOUT TO RECOGNIZE

THE CONFEDERACY,
SOME PEOPLE THINK.

AND WHEN THEY GOT
THE NEWS THAT LEE HAD
RETREATED FROM MARYLAND,

THEY DECIDED TO WAIT LONGER
TO SEE WHAT HAPPENED.

DO YOU KNOW ABOUT
JOSHUA LAWRENCE
CHAMBERLAIN'S

MANEUVER ON TOP
OF LITTLE ROUND TOP?

YES, UH, THAT--THAT'S
A—-THAT'S A VERY
DRAMATIC THING,

AND SOME PEOPLE THINK
BECAUSE OF WHAT HAPPENED THERE

THE BATTLE OF GETTYSBURG
WAS NOT LOST.

IT'S ALWAYS DANGEROUS
THINK WHAT WOULD HAVE
HAPPENED IF SOMEONE

HADN'T DONE SOMETHING.

THEY SIMPLY WOULD HAVE
DONE SOMETHING ELSE.

TELL ME JUST AS
IF I DIDN'T KNOW.

WHAT DID CHAMBERLAIN DO?

HE MANAGED TO GET TROOPS
UP THERE IN TIME

TO STOP THE CHARGE
THAT THE ALABAMIANS

AND THE TEXANS MADE
AGAINST LITTLE ROUND TOP,

AND IF THEY HAD TAKEN
LITTLE ROUND TOP,

THEY COULD HAVE GOTTEN GUNS
UP THERE AND DOMINATED

THE WHOLE,
UH, NORTHERN LINE,

AND IN FACT, IF THEY'D
GOTTEN GUNS UP

ON BIG ROUND TOP,
THEY COULD HAVE DONE
THE SAME THING.

AND A WHOLE, UH, BRIGADE
OF ALABAMIANS MADE IT

UP ON, UH--ON--ON--
ON BIG ROUND TOP.

UH, BUT YOU'RE ALWAYS
WONDERING

WHAT MIGHT HAVE HAPPENED
IF THIS HADN'T HAPPENED

OR WHAT MIGHT HAVE HAPPENED
IF THIS HAD HAPPENED,

AND THE--THE SITUATION
SIMPLY WOULD HAVE
BEEN CHANGED.

TO SPEAK REALLY
SERIOUSLY ABOUT THIS THING,

THE QUESTION
OF WHETHER THE SOUTH

COULD HAVE WON THE WAR
AT ANY OF THESE POINTS,

IDO NOT THINK SO.

UH, THE ONLY CHANCE OF
THE SOUTH WINNING THAT WAR

WOULD HAVE BEEN
FOR ENGLAND TO COME
IN ON OUR SIDE

THE WAY THE FRENCH CAME
INTO THE REVOLUTION,

AND THEY WERE
NEVER COMING IN.

UH, I THINK THAT
THE NORTH FOUGHT THAT WAR

WITH ONE HAND
BEHIND ITS BACK,

AT THE SAME TIME,
THE WAR WAS GOING ON,

THE HOMESTEAD ACT
WAS BEING PASSED.

ALL THESE
MARVELOUS INVENTIONS
WERE GOING ON.

UH, IN THE SPRING OF
'64, THE HARVARD/YALE
BOAT RACES WERE GOING ON,

AND NOTA MAN IN EITHER
CREW EVER VOLUNTEERED

FOR THE ARMY OR THE NAVY.

THEY DIDN'T NEED THEM.

UH, I THINK THAT IF
IT HAD BEEN MORE

SOUTHERN SUCCESSES
AND A LOT MORE,

THE NORTH SIMPLY
WOULD HAVE BROUGHT

THAT OTHER ARM OUT
FROM BEHIND ITS BACK.

UH, I DON'T THINK
THE SOUTH EVER HAD

A CHANCE TO WIN THAT WAR.

PETERSBURG?

PETERSBURG IS A--IS--IS
A MAGNIFICENT SALUTE

TO THE DURABILITY
OF MEN ON BOTH SIDES.

UH, IT WAS JUST
A--|T WAS A REHEARSAL

FOR WORLD WAR I,
TRENCH WARFARE,

AND THEY STOOD UP
VERY WELL TO IT,

BUT THE SOLDIERS ALWAYS
DID IN THAT WAR.

THEY WERE--|T'S TO US
AN ALMOST INCREDIBLE BRAVERY,

CONSIDERING THE CASUALTIES.

UH, IT'S HARD
TO UNDERSTAND.

THOSE MEN SEEM LARGER
THAN LIFE IN WHAT THEY
COULD ENDURE,

ESPECIALLY IF YOU KNOW
ANYTHING

ABOUT THE MEDICAL
ATTENTION THEY GOT.

IT WAS 80, UH, CRUDE,
UH, AND THE--THE LACK

OF ANESTHETICS,
UH, ALL THOSE THINGS.

IT'S JUST--UH,
IT'S ALMOST UNBELIEVABLE

THAT MEN COULD--COULD
PERFORM OVER A PERIOD
OF 4 YEARS.

ANYBODY CAN GO OUT
AND PERFORM SOME AFTERNOON,

BUT THESE MEN KEPT IT
UP YEAR AFTER YEAR.

THE WAR WAS REALLY
VISITED

ON HUNDREDS
OF THOUSANDS
OF ANONYMOUS PEOPLE.

WHAT OF THEIR RECORD
DO YOU CARE ABOUT?

UH, THERE IS SCARCELY
ONE OF THEM THAT
ISN'T INTERESTING

IF YOU CAN FIND
A LETTER HE WROTE HOME
OR ANYTHING.

TH EY—-TH EY HAVE
THIS SYMPATHY,

AND MOST OF THE LETTERS
SAY, "PLEASE SEND ME

AN OLD PAIR OF PANTS,
OR ANYTHING."

UH, AND THEY--THEY—-THEY
DON'T TALK ABOUT HEROICS.

IT'S--UH, IT'S AS IF YOU--
IT WAS NOT SOMETHING

YOU TALKED ABOUT IT.

YOU DID IT.

BUT THEIR LIFE
WAS TOUGH.

IT WAS INDEED TOUGH.

UH, THERE ARE
LITTLE THINGS.

THEY MAR--THEY MADE
THESE 25-MILE MARCHES.

I'VE MADE TWO OR THREE
25-MILE MARCHES IN THE ARMY,

AND I WAS BROKEN DOWN
FOR DAYS AFTER IT.

THEY MADE THEM,

AND I DON'T KNOW WHETHER
YOU KNOW IT OR NOT.

WHEN YOU WERE ISSUED
A PAIR OF SHOES

IN THE NORTHERN ARMY,

THEY WEREN'T LEFT FOOT
AND RIGHT FOOT.

THEY WERE THE SAME SHOE.

YOU WORE THEM
INTO BEING LEFT FOOT
AND RIGHT FOOT.

AND WHEN YOU IMAGINE
MAKING 25-MILE MARCHES

WITH INFERIOR FOOTWEAR,
LET ALONE BAREFOOT

THE WAY MANY CONFEDERATES
WERE, |T'S--|T'S

UNBELIEVABLE THE--
THE WAY THEY COULD FUNCTION.

DIDN'T ONE SIDE HAVE
A PARTICULAR WAY
OF YELLING?

THEY--THEY BOTH HAD
A PARTICULAR WAY
OF YELLING.

THE NORTHERN TROOPS
MADE A SORT OF HURRAH.

IT WAS CALLED--
ONE SOLDIER,

"THE DEEP, GENEROUS,
MANLY SHOUT

OF THE NORTHERN SOLDIER."

THE CONFEDERATES,
OF COURSE, HAD WHAT WAS

CALLED THE "REBEL YELL."

WE DON'T REALLY KNOW
WHAT THAT SOUNDED LIKE.

UH, ONE NORTHERNER
DESCRIBED IT.

HE SAID, UH--HE DESCRIBED IT
BY DESCRIBING

THE PECULIAR CORKSCREW
SENSATION THAT GOES

UP YOUR BACKBONE
WHEN YOU HEAR IT.

AND HE SAID, "AND IF
YOU'VE CLAIMED YOU'VE

"HEARD IT
AND WEREN'T SCARED,

THAT MEANS YOU
NEVER HEARD IT."

IT WAS A—-|T WAS
BASICALLY, I THINK,

A SORT OF FOX HUNT YIP
MIXED UP

WITH A SORT
OF BANSHEE SQUALL,

AND IT WAS USED
ON THE ATTACK,

AND, UH,
AN OLD CONFEDERATE VETERAN

AFTER THE WAR WAS ASKED
AT A UDC MEETING

IN TENNESSEE SOMEWHERE
TO GIVE THE REBEL YELL.

THE LADIES HAD
NEVER HEARD IT.

AND HE SAID, UM,
"IT CAN'T BE DONE

"EXCEPT AT A RUN,

"AND I COULDN'T DO IT
ANYHOW WITH A MOUTH FULL

OF FALSE TEETH
AND STOMACH FULL OF FOOD."

SO THEY--THEY NEVER
GOT TO HEAR WHAT IT
SOUNDED LIKE.

YOU HAVE SPEED? OK.

OK. ROLL, BUDDY.

SLATE.

SHARPSBURG IS
THE BLOODIEST DAY

IN AMERICAN HISTORY.

WHAT ARE
YOUR FEELINGS?

TELL ME
ABOUT SHARPSBURG?

SHARPSBURG IS AN UNUSUAL
BATTLE IN THAT |T—-

THERE WAS NO NEED
FOR FIGHTING IT AT ALL.

HE COULD--D|D NOT
HAVE TO FIGHT IT,

BUT HE WAS DETERMINED
NOT TO BE RUN OUT,

AND HE STOPPED TO FIGHT.

UH, A LOT OF PEOPLE
THINK THAT HE WAS WRONG

TO STOP THERE AND FIGHT,

BUT FROM THEN ON
WHEN LEE WAS ON A RETREAT,

ANYBODY CLOSING
IN ON HIM WAS

VERY, VERY CAUTIOUS,
PROBABLY BECAUSE THEY

REMEMBERED SHARPSBURG.

IT WAS A BLOODY DAY.

IT WAS INDEED
ABLOODY DAY.

IT MAY NOT HAVE BEEN
THE BLOODIEST DAY
OF THE WAR.

IT OFTEN IS CALLED THAT.

ITHINK PERHAPS
THE FIRST DAY AT CHICKAMAUGA

WAS THE BLOODIEST DAY,

BUT WE DON'T KNOW
BECAUSE YOU CAN'T

SEPARATE THE CASUALTIES
OF THE FIRST AND SECOND DAY.

UH, |T--|T WAS
A BLOODY ONE.

IT WAS UNBELIEVABLE,
UM, UNBELIEVABLE.

IT WAS REALLY
3 BATTLES,

ONE AFTER ANOTHER
LEFT, CENTER, AND RIGHT.

UH, |T--|T'S
A HIGHLY DRAMATIC ACTION.

IF YOU WANTED TO SEE
A BATTLE THAT WAS

HIGHLY DRAMATIC,
YOU'D PROBABLY
TAKE SHARPSBURG

OR FREDERICKSBURG,
WHERE YOU COULD SEE

PRACTICALLY
THE WHOLE FIELD

AND CHARGE
AFTER CHARGE.

LET ME, UH, SHIFT
YOUR GEARS AND, UH,

IF YOU COULD GIVE US
ALITTLE ANECDOTE

ABOUT BEN BUTLER.

BEN BUTLER IS, UH,
MORE AMUSING TO LOOK AT

THAN HE IS
TO READ ABOUT.

HE WAS COCKEYED,
FOR ONE THING,

AND HIS ARMS AND LEGS
DIDN'T SEEM TO FIT HIS BODY.

WHAT HE MAINLY WAS WAS
APOLITICIAN IN UNIFORM.

HE WAS, UH--HE WAS
NO THREAT TO ANYBODY
ON THE FIELD OF FIGHT,

BUT HE WAS A THREAT
TO LINCOLN AND TO GRANT.

UH, GRANT HAD TO BE VERY
CAUTIOUS DURING THAT
PETERSBURG CAMPAIGN

BECAUSE BUTLER WAS
NEXT IN RANK,

AND IF ANYTHING HAPPENED
TO GRANT, IT WOULD HAVE

BEEN BUTLER IN COMMAND,

AND, UM, THAT
WAS UNTHINKABLE.

SO GRANT HAD TO FIGURE
WAYS TO GET RID OF HIM,

AND IT WAS VERY HARD
TO DO BECAUSE LINCOLN

COULD NOT AFFORD
TO FIRE BUTLER

ON THE EVE
OF THE ELECTION.

BUTLER WAS A DEMOCRAT
AND CONTROLLED

A LOT OF VOTES.

HE WAS A WAR DEMOCRAT.

BUT, UH, HE COULDN'T
GET RID OF HIM,

AND THEN AS SOON AS
THE ELECTION WAS OVER,

BEN BUTLER WAS GONE.

TELL ME ABOUT
BEAUREGARD QUICKLY.

BEAUREGARD IS
A—-A NEW ORLEANS CREOLE,

FLAMBOYANT, GIVEN
TO MAGNIFICENT DREAMS
OF CONQUEST,

ALL OF WHICH WERE BEYOND
THE CAPABILITIES

OF THE SOUTH
TO--TO PERFORM,

BUT I LIKE BEAUREGARD,

AND I THINK ANYONE
WHO READS ABOUT HIM
WOULD LIKE HIM.

HE'S GOT A LOT
OF COLOR AND DASH TO HIM,

THOSE BIG SAD BLOODHOUND
EYES OF HIS

AND THE LOVE LOCKS
ON HIS FOREHEAD.

HE'S, UH--HE'S
AN EXTREMELY
ATTRACTIVE FIGURE.

WHAT ABOUT THE WAR
ON WATER, FARRAGUT,

AND ALL THAT
SORT OF STUFF,
THINGS LIKE THAT?

THAT'S A WHOLE
ANOTHER THING.

THAT'LL GET US
INTO THE ANACONDA PLAN,

WHICH, UH,
GENERAL SCOTT DEVISED.

HE WANTED TO TAKE
THE MISSISSIPPI RIVER

AND BLOCKADE THE COAST
AND CHOKE THE SOUTH TO DEATH,

AND THAT'S ONE
OF THE THINGS
THAT DID HAPPEN.

UH, THE NAVAL ACTIONS,
UH, I'VE WRITTEN
ABOUT MANY OF THEM,

AND I FIND THEM
ABSOLUTELY UNBELIEVABLE

WHILE I'M WRITING THEM.

HERE YOU HAD MEN
WITH 8-INCH GUNS FIRING

AT EACH OTHER
FROM A RANGE OF 8 FEET.

AHEM. THAT'S JUST
UNBELIEVABLE.

IT'S, UH--|T'S SO BRUTAL.

UH, THE BATTLE
OF MOBILE BAY, FOR INSTANCE,

YOU HAVE ONE
IRONCLAD TAKING ON
THE WHOLE FLEET

SIMPLY BECAUSE HE
WOULD NOT SURRENDER,

WOULD NOT SURRENDER
UNTIL FINALLY HE DID,

BUT, UH, THE NAVAL STUFF,
AS I SAY, IT'S--

|T'S--|T'S HARD TO
CREDIT THAT MEN COULD DO

WHAT THEY DID ON THOSE--
ON THOSE--ON THOSE BOATS.

AND APPROXIMATELY HALF
THE MEN IN BOTH NAVIES

COULDN'T SWIM, WHICH
IS A STRANGE THING.

NOT MANY--NOT MANY
PEOPLE KNEW HOW
TO SWIM |N THOSE DAYS.

| CAN'T--|T'S HARD TO
THINK OF A SAILOR

NOT TAKING THE TROUBLE
TO LEARN HOW TO SWIM.

THAT'S NO SLATE,
RUN-OUT.

OH, WAIT. WE SLATED
AT THE HEAD,

SO WE'RE FINE.

END OF ROLL.

SOUND ROLL 6,
CAMERA ROLL 6,

"THE CIVIL WAR,"
AMERICAN
DOCUMENTARIES,

FLORENTINE FILMS,

CONTINUATION
WITH SHELBY FOOTE.

MAN: SWING RIGHT.

YEP.

OK.

WHO REALLY
WON THE WAR?

WELL, THAT'S A VERY
DIFFICULT QUESTION
TO ANSWER.

|--| CAN TELL
YOU WHO LOST IT.

THE SOUTH LOST THE WAR,

BUT I'M NOT SURE
ANYBODY WON THAT WAR.

UM, IT'S A TRAGEDY.

UH, THE CENTENNIAL
WAS CALLED A CELEBRATION.

IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN
ATIME OF MOURNING.

IF ANYBODY WON THE WAR,
IT'S PEOPLE LIKE,

UH, JAY GOULD
AND JIM FISK,

THE ROBBER BARONS
OF LATE IN THE CENTURY.

UH, |T--THAT WAR
WAS DEFINED ONCE

IN AN OUTRAGEOUS WAY
BY ALLEN TATE AS AN ATTEMPT

ON THE PART OF THE NORTH
TO PUT THE SOUTH

INTO ARROW COLLARS,
UH, WHICH IS A JOKE,

BUT THERE IS
SOME TRUTH IN IT.

UM, THE HOMOGENIZATION
OF OUR SOCIETY,

THE, UM, UH, REALLY CRUEL
FOLLOW-THROUGH

OF RECONSTRUCTION,
WHICH HAD ITS GOOD

AND ITS BAD SIDES,

BUT AFTER
RECONSTRUCTION,

UH, IT REALLY BECAME UGLY,
UH, IN THINGS LIKE

FREIGHT RATE DIFFERENTIALS
AND EVERYTHING ELSE.

UH, THAT WAR WAS WON,
AND THEN THE--
THE CELEBRATION

OF THE WINNING OF IT
WENT ON FOR ABOUT 70 YEARS.

UH, AND I'M NOT SURE
HOW MUCH BENEFIT IT WAS

TO THE NORTH,
THE WINNING OF THAT WAR.

THE-CAPITALISM
WENT SPREAD-EAGLE,

AND DIVERSITY WENT
OUT OF OUR LIFE.

I THINK THAT WHEN
THE SOUTH WAS, UH, DEFEATED

TO THE EXTENT THAT IT WAS
THAT THE WHOLE NATION LOST--

LOST SOMETHING WHEN THEY
LOST THAT CIVILIZATION,

DESPITE THE ENORMOUS
STAIN AND SIN OF SLAVERY.

UH, IF THAT THING COULD
HAVE BEEN DONE
WITHOUT AWAR,

THAT IS, SLAVERY
COULD HAVE BEEN
ABOLISHED WITHOUT A WAR--

AND I'M SURE IT
COULD HAVE--

UH, WE WOULDN'T
HAVE LOST SO MUCH
WITH WHAT WE GAINED.

UH, I DON'T KNOW
OF ANYTHING WE GAINED

THAT WE COULDN'T HAVE
GAINED WITHOUT A WAR,

WITH CERTAIN EXCEPTIONS.

WAR ALWAYS
CREATES INVENTIONS.

THE FOUNTAIN PEN
WAS INVENTED
DURING THE CIVIL WAR.

THE MACHINE
FOR THE STITCHING

THE UPPERS TO THE SOLES
OF SHOES WAS INVENTED.

IN THE NORTH,
AS AN EXAMPLE OF HOW
PROSPEROUS THEY WERE,

ANY NUMBER OF HIGHER
EDUCATION INSTITUTIONS
WERE ESTABLISHED--

MIT, VASSAR,
LARGE NUMBERS OF THINGS--

TO SHOW YOU HOW THE--
THE NORTH WAS LIVING

ITS OWN LIFE WHILE
IT WAS FIGHTING THAT WAR.

SO THAT...ON THE FACE OF IT,
THE NORTH WON THE WAR,

BUT THE BILL
FOR WINNING IT WAS HUGE

IN HUMAN VALUES,
NOT TO MENTION HUMAN LIVES.

SO IT'S A DIFFICULT
QUESTION TO ANSWER.

YOU WANT TO STOP?
HOLD IT.

SLATE.

CLICK

ROLLING.

WHAT DID CARLYLE SAY
ABOUT THE, UH--THE,
UH--THE WAR?

HE DESCRIBED
THE CIVIL WAR--
AND THIS IS AJOKE.

IT MUSTN'T BE HELD
AGAINST HIM TOO MUCH.

IT'S THOMAS CARLYLE,
THE ENGLISH HISTORIAN
AND ESSAYIST.

HE SAID THAT IT WAS
A CONTEST BETWEEN ONE
GROUP OF PEOPLE

WHO PREFERRED TO HIRE
THEIR SERVANTS FOR LIFE

AND ANOTHER GROUP OF PEOPLE
WHO JUST WANTED

TO HIRE THEM
BY THE WEEK.

HA HA!

AND HE ALSO SAID
ATHING THAT'S FUNNY.

HE SAID,
"THE AMERICAN CIVIL WAR IS,

"UH, LIKE CLEANING OUT
ASOOT—FILLED CHIMNEY,

"THAT IT'S DIRTYING
UP THE WHOLE WORLD,

ALL THAT--ALL THAT KILLING
AND INTERRUPTIONS OF TRADE."

COULD YOU VERY BRIEFLY
TAKE US ON A QUICK TRIP

THROUGH
THE UNION GENERALS?

OH, LORD. UH...

AQUICK TRIP WOULDN'T
BE ENOUGH

JUST TO DESCRIBE
THOSE IN THE ARMY
OF THE POTOMAC,

LET ALONE OUT HERE,

AND, UH, I REALLY DON'T
THINK I COULD DO THAT.

IT'D BE--BE TOO QUICK
AND BE MEANINGLESS, I THINK.

OK.

UM, TELL ME WHAT
HAPPENED TO--

VERY BRIEFLY, HOW
DID LEE END UP?

HE ENDED UP
IN THE NOBLE WAY
YOU MIGHT HAVE EXPECTED

AFTER YOU'D LEARNED
TO EXPECT IT.

UH, HE WAS, UH--D|DN'T KNOW
WHAT TO DO WITH HIMSELF
AFTER THE WAR.

HIS PROFESSION WAS GONE.

EVEN HIS COUNTRY WAS GONE.

UH, AND HE WAS APPROACHED,
WITH A GOOD DEAL
OF HESITATION,

BY THESE PEOPLE
FROM A LITTLE SCHOOL

CALLED WASHINGTON COLLEGE,

AND, UH, HE ACCEPTED
THE PRESIDENCY
OF WASHINGTON COLLEGE.

HE HAD AN ANNUAL SALARY
OF $1,500 AND A HOUSE
TO LIVE IN,

AND HE SPENT
THE REST OF HIS LIFE

AT WHAT AFTER HIS DEATH WAS
CALLED WASHINGTON AND LEE.

AND, UH, LEE
AT WASHINGTON COLLEGE
IS SOMETHING.

THERE WAS A YOUNG MAN
BROUGHT BEFORE HIM

FOR SOME INFRACTION
OF THE RULES,

AND CAN YOU IMAGINE
BEING BROUGHT
BEFORE GENERAL LEE

FOR HAVING
BROKEN THE RULES?

AND THE YOUNG MAN
WAS TREMBLING,

AND LEE SAID,
"YOU NEED NOT BE AFRAID.

YOU'LL GET
JUSTICE HERE."

AND THE YOUNG MAN SAID,
"I KNOW IT, GENERAL.

THAT'S WHAT
I'M SCARED OF."

HEH HEH HEH.

BUT THAT'S LEE
FOR YOU, YEAH.

NATHAN BEDFORD FORREST--
WHAT HAPPENED TO HIM?

WHAT'S HIS--BR|EFLY—-

FORREST DIED ABOUT 7 YEARS
AFTER THE WAR WAS OVER,

PROBABLY OF CANCER
OF THE STOMACH,

BUT--BUT WE DON'T
KNOW FOR SURE.

UH, HE, UH, DIED BROKE.

HE HAD GONE INTO THE WAR
WORTH A MILLION DOLLARS,

WHICH WAS A GREAT DEAL
OF MONEY IN THOSE DAYS.

PEOPLE WHO TELL
YOU FORREST WAS

AN ILLITERATE,
UH, SOMEBODY WHO CAME IN

OUT OF THE COTTON FIELDS
DON'T KNOW ANYTHING
ABOUT FORREST.

HE WAS A MEMBER
OF THE CITY COUNCIL

HERE IN MEMPHIS
AND ALL THAT.

HE, UH--HE--HE--HE WAS
IN, UH, RAILROAD VENTURES.

HE TRIED FARMING
ON PRESIDENT'S ISLAND HERE,

BUT NONE OF IT WORKED,
AND HE DID DIE BROKE.

CAN WE STOP
FOR A SECOND?
WE'VE GOT TO...

AGAW.WT
BUDDY

HEAD SLATE. AHEM.

UM, BUT FORREST--
DIDN'T FORREST START

AN ORGANIZATION
OF SOME REPUTE,
OR ISN'T HE--

FORREST WAS
AN IMPERIAL WIZARD

OF THE KU KLUX KLAN,
WE THINK,

BUT THAT WAS STARTED
IN PULASKI

OVER IN MIDDLE TENNESSEE
AS ASORT

OF SOCIAL ORGANIZATION.

THEN IT GREW INTO BE--

EXCUSE ME.
I GOT TO STOP--STOP.

WE ALREADY DID SLATE.

I KNOW.

UH, TELL ME
THE STORY ABOUT DAVIS

AND THE POSTAGE
STAMP VERY QUICKLY.

UH, DAVIS WAS WALKING
DOWN THE STREET
IN RICHMOND ONE DAY,

AND A CONFEDERATE SOLDIER
WHO WAS IN RICHMOND
ON FURLOUGH PASSED HIM

AND STOPPED HIM
AND SAID, "SIR, MISTER?

BEN'T YOU
JEFFERSON DAVIS?"

AND DAVIS SAID
THAT HE WAS.

AND HE SAID, "|"--
THE SOLDIER SAID,

"WELL, I THOUGHT SO.
YOU LOOK SO MUCH LIKE

A CONFEDERATE
POSTAGE STAM P." HEH.

DIDN'T VERMONT
GET INVADED?

WHAT WAS |T—-WHAT?

YES, UH, OUT OF CANADA,
THEY--THEY DESCENDED

ON ST. ALBANS ONE DAY,
A SMALL GROUP

OF CONFEDERATES
WITH CIVILIAN OVERCOATS
ON OVER THEIR UNIFORMS,

AND THEY STRIPPED
THE OVERCOATS ON

AND, UH, DECLARED THE TOWN
SEIZED BY THE CONFEDERACY

AND WANTED ALL THE MONEY
IN ALL THE BANKS

TO FINANCE
OTHER ADVENTURES.

IT ONLY LASTED
ACOUPLE OF HOURS,

BUT, UH, THEY--THEY
BROUGHT WITH THEM,

UH, THINGS LIKE, UH,
GLASS CONTAINERS

OF GREEK FIRE
FOR SETTING FIRE
TO THE TOWN

IF THEY HAD ANY TROUBLE,

AND THERE WAS SOME
SHOOTING, TOO.

THE VERMONTERS, UH,
DIDN'T--D|DN'T BACK
DOWN AT ALL.

THEY FIRED AT THEM OUT
OF UPSTAIRS WINDOWS
AND EVERYTHING.

2 OR 3 MEN WOUNDED WAS
ALL THAT IT AMOUNTED TO.

DO YOU HAVE RELATIVES
WHO FOUGHT IN THE WAR?

MY GREAT-GRANDFATHER,
HEZEKIAH WILLIAM FOOTE,
WAS AT SHILOH.

HE GOT THE TAIL SHOT
OFF HIS HORSE THERE
AND HIS SABER BENT,

AND THAT WAS
HIS ONLY ACTION.

HE RETIRED IMMEDIATELY
TO MACON, MISSISSIPPI,

AND WAS IN THE HOME GUARD.

HE WAS A COLONEL THERE.

HE WAS 55 YEARS OLD, THOUGH.

SO HE--HE--SH|LOH WAS
ENOUGH BATTLE FOR HIM.

IT WOULD HAVE BEEN
ENOUGH FOR ME TOO, YEAH.

CAN YOU EXPLAIN
THE NAMES--

HOW THE, UH,
CONFEDERATES

AND THE YANKEES
CALL THINGS BY
DIFFERENT NAMES?

IF YOU COULD JUST
RESTATE--

YOU MEAN THE BATTLES?
THE BATTLES.

UH, THE TENDENCY WAS
FOR NORTHERN ARMIES

OFFICIALLY TO CALL
AFTER THE NEAREST
STREAM OF WATER,

ANTIETAM CREEK,
FOR INSTANCE,

AND THE CONFEDERATES
TEND TO NAME THEM

AFTER TOWNS,
SHARPSBURG IN THAT CASE.

THE SAME WAY
WITH MURFREESBORO
AND STONES RIVER.

UH, I'VE OFTEN
THOUGHT THAT THAT'S

BECAUSE TOWNS WERE
UNUSUAL TO SOUTHERNERS,

WHO LIVED RURALLY,
AND SO THEY NAMED THEM

AFTER THE NEAREST TOWN.

IS THERE SOMETHING
THAT WE SHOULD ASK?

I MEAN, WE'RE TRYING
SORT--WE'RE REALLY

STRUGGLING TO COME
TO THE GRIPS--

THE REAL QUESTION
OF WHAT THIS WAR
MEANT TO ALL OF US

AND AT THE TIME.

HOW CAN WE UNDERSTAND
THE WAR?

YOU--YOU HAVE TO
UNDERSTAND FIRST

ITS IMPORTANCE AS TO
WHY YOU SHOULD UNDERSTAND.

UH, ANY UNDERSTANDING
OF THIS NATION

HAS TO BE BASED--
AND I MEAN REALLY BASED--

ON AN UNDERSTANDING
OF THE CIVIL WAR.

I BELIEVE THAT FIRMLY.
IT DEFINED US.

THE REVOLUTION DID
WHAT IT DID,

OUR INVOLVEMENT
IN EUROPEAN WARS BEGAN

WITH THE FIRST WORLD WAR,
DID WHAT IT DID,

BUT THE CIVIL WAR DEFINED
US AS WHAT WE ARE,

AND IT OPENED US
TO BEING WHAT WE BECAME,

UH, GOOD AND BAD THINGS.

UH, AND IT IS
VERY NECESSARY,

IF YOU'RE GOING TO UNDERSTAND
THE AMERICAN CHARACTER
IN THE 20th CENTURY,

TO LEARN ABOUT THIS
ENORMOUS CATASTROPHE
OF THE MID-19th CENTURY.

IT WAS THE--THE--
THE CROSSROADS OF OUR BEING,

AND IT WAS A HELL
OF A CROSSROADS,

UH, THE SUFFERING,

THEnTHEn
THE ENORMOUS TRAGEDY
OF THE WHOLE THING.

AND LET ME END
WITH MY FIRST QUESTION.

WHY DID
THE CIVIL WAR HAPPEN?

WHY DID AMERICANS
KILL AMERICANS IN SUCH
EXTRAORDINARY NUMBERS?

IT HAPPENED BECAUSE
THE TACTICS WERE

BEHIND THE WEAPONS.

THEY HAD WEAPONS
IN THEIR HANDS WERE

CAPABLE THAN DOING
A GREAT DEAL MORE KILLING

THAN THOSE TACTICS
HAD BEEN DESIGNED
TO TAKE CARE OF,

AND |T—-THERE'S
SOMETHING ABOUT TENACITY

OF THE AMERICAN SOLDIER
THAT CAUSED A LOT
OF THEM TO DIE.

OBVIOUSLY, YOU WOULDN'T
NEARLY AS MANY KILLED IF
A LOT MORE HAD RUN AWAY.

SO THAT THOSE TWO
FACTORS, I THINK,

UH, ACCOUNT FOR
THE LARGE NUMBERS OF DEAD,

ALONG WITH A GENEROUS
SPRINKLING OF STUPIDITY
ON BOTH SIDES.

PEOPLE DID THINGS THEY
JUST SHOULD NOT HAVE DONE

AND GOTA LOT OF
PEOPLE KILLED DOING IT.

THE MOST STARTLING
EXAMPLE OF THAT IS HOOD'S

ATTACK AT FRANKLIN,
TENNESSEE.

THAT KIND OF THING HAS
TO BE ASSIGNED ITS JOB.

HE JUST ATTACKED
A THOROUGHLY ENTRENCHED ARMY

AS A WAY OF DISCIPLINING
HIS OWN ARMY,

AND HE DAMN NEAR
GOT IT DESTROYED.

UH, HE--HE, UH,
THE CHARGE AT FRANKLIN

IS A MORE TRAGIC THING
THAN THE CHARGE
AT GETTYSBURG

IF YOU GET TO
LOOKING AT IT.

IT WAS MORE DIFFICULT TO DO,
AND THE CASUALTIES,

EVEN, WERE HIGHER.

IT WAS
AN INCREDIBLE BLUNDER,

AND THAT YOU HAVE
TO ASSIGN ITS SHARE

IN THE HUGE AMOUNT
OF BLOODSHED.

COLD HARBOR.

COLD HARBOR VERY MUCH
THE SAME KIND OF THING.

UH, WHEN THAT
CONFEDERATE ARMY WENT

INTO POSITION
AT COLD HARBOR,

THOSE WERE MEN
WHO KNEW HOW TO
TAKE A POSITION

WHERE YOU COULD DO
THE MOST KILLING FROM,

AND THAT WHOLE ARMY WAS
LINED UP THERE, WAITING

AND HOPING
AND PRAYING SOMETHING

WOULD COME AT THEM,

AND GRANT THREW
3 CORPS AT THEM,

AND IN APPROXIMATELY
7 MINUTES,

THEY KILLED
ABOUT 7,000 MEN,

OR SHOT ABOUT 7,000
MEN DOWN.

IT WAS A BLOODY MESS.

IT'S THE ONLY THING
GRANT EVER ADMITTED

THAT HE HAD DONE WRONG.

HE SAID AFTER THE WAR,
"IF I HAD IT TO DO OVER AGAIN,

"I DON'T BELIEVE
I'D MAKE THAT CHARGE

AT COLD HARBOR."

HE NEVER ADMITTED TO
ABOUT ANYTHING ELSE.

IT WAS NOT GRANT'S WAY
TO ADMIT ANY BLAME,

BUT--AND THAT HAD
HIS GOOD SIDE.

HE DIDN'T WORRY
ABOUT FAULTS THAT HE HAD MADE,

AND HE JUST WENT
AHEAD ALWAYS.

THANK YOU,
SHELBY FOOTE--

THE AIRPLANES CERTAINLY
DID COOPERATE WITH THAT,

DIDN'T THEY?
YEAH.