Remembering 9/11 (2011–…): Season 1, Episode 1 - 9/11: Science and Conspiracy - full transcript

It was a day America
will never forget...

but millions believe
there was more to the attack,

than we were allowed to know.

Why the secrecy?

If we were taken by surprise,

if this truly was a surprise terrorist
attack on our country, why the secrecy?

They believe 9/11 was an inside job.

The people at the World
Trade Center and the Pentagon

were murdered by forces
within our own government.

Now science takes on
the conspiracy theories.

The reality is this far out no
one has been able to provide



a single piece of evidence

that those buildings
were explosively demand.

And the reason is,
they weren't.

Nobody will ever look at
9/11 the same way again.

10:06 a. m. United Airlines 93 is shot down.

We demand the story.

It completes something in
US. And conspiracy theories

our fairy story realities. They are a

narrative that
improves upon reality itself.

9/11 Science and conspiracy

In a hangar in New York City

pieces of a tragedy lie in
storage. Closed to the public,

these items were recovered from the
location of the former World Trade Center.

A site now known as ground zero.



These are tangible artifacts.

Their existence confirms
that what once was is no longer.

But the sequence of events

that brought these
artifact into the hangar

remains controversial.

The one thing we can say
most definitely about the towers,

is that they did not come down

because they were hit by planes

and then developed really hot fires.

2.000 miles from Ground Zero.

The ghosts of 9/11 haunt another location.

On this test range engineers conduct

experiments that test
the forensics of conspiracy

with results that only
fueled the controversy.

So I think you have to
keep reminding the listener

that you're not
necessarily telling the truth.

You're telling what
the official story is.

But it goes without saying.

Doesn't it that any of us who
argue against conspiracy theories

are part of the conspiracy?

Truthers argue that no member
of the conspiracy would dare talk.

Whole idea that somebody
who participated in an operation like this,

would willingly go on the news.

I'm like I took part
of it. Is ludicrous.

Since its release in 2005

millions of Americans have
viewed copies of "Loose change",

a documentary that challenges the
official narrative of 9/11.

Was September
11th a surprise attack on America...

by 19 Islamic terrorists?

Or something else entirely.

There are a lot
of crazy people

out there and there are a lot of crazy

people in this movement there's people

that believe planes never hit the World

Trade Center there's people that think

that no Jews showed up on 9/11 there's

people that think all these outlandish

things so yes it would be very easy to

simply roll over and accept the official

story and say 19 Arabs hated us the bad

man put the plane in the building end of

but I mean there's just so much more the

truthers are a group of people who

believe that the attacks on 9/11 were if

not committed by a group of conspirators

in the United States there was at least

a group within the White House and the

Bush administration who allowed the

attacks to happen intentionally they

believe it's either one of two things

either it's the what they call lie HAP

which is let it happen on purpose or my

hop which is made it happen on purpose

why are these claims being made is there

any evidence that supports them and why

do so many people believe them the

official story is so insanely

none of us professionals have ever seen

a high-rise building collapse once you

look at these facts and see how ironic

actually but none of them have collapsed

completely as we saw on 9/11 all I know

is the American public does not know the

truth about 9/11 and that is the truth

about knowledge to understand the

context of conspiracy we need to look

back into recent American history

on December 71941 the United States was

attacked here at Pearl Harbor in Hawaii

on November 22nd 1963 President John

Kennedy was shot here in Dallas Texas

and in New York City the torn earth

inside ground zero symbolizes another

American trauma these three catastrophes

hang over their respective ground zeroes

and share more than traumatic impact all

one pre-eminent historian estimates that

after the Pearl Harbor attack 50% of

Americans believed Franklin Roosevelt

knew of the raid in advance allowing it

to happen in order to bring the United

States into the Second World War

a 2003 Gallup poll showed that 75% of

Americans believed that Lee Harvey

Oswald did not act alone on November

22nd 1963 and in a news poll conducted

in 2006 more than 33 percent of

Americans believe the government either

carried out the 9/11 attacks or made no

effort to stop them I believe that 9/11

is the culmination of a number of

opportunities for a number of very

powerful people there are people that

want to cash in on real estate there

were people that wanted to cash in on

legislation being passed there were

people that wanted to cash in on the

military-industrial complex and the

stimulation of it that would happen

immediately after 9/11 conspiracy sells

because it gives you know everybody out

there a chance to understand what's

behind what's going on not just the

facts that the TVs and newspapers are

feeding us but this big cobble behind

it's controlling the scenes controlling

what's actually going on it's a lot more

fun adults like kids they love to be

scared conspiracies provide that sort of

that safe scare I'm actually smarter

than the government I know they're lying

to me I've got it all figured out

because it really is a conspiracy trust

me now many of the steps we recommend

will help prevent such a disaster from

ever happening again the government

timeline of events has been consistent

traveling at 440 miles per hour and

carrying about 10.000 gallons of jet

flight 11 tonneaus impacts the 96th

floor the profile of the plane leaves a

gash extending from the 93rd to the 99th

floor

the Pentagon attack kills all 64 people

on the plane and 125 people in the

the FAA continues to track a fourth

United flight 93

five minutes later at 10:03 a. m. flight

93 crashes into a field in Shanksville

Pennsylvania

after three investigations the US

government concludes nineteen hijackers

commandeered four planes in a terrorist

attack that took the lives of three

thousand Americans some believe this

official version of events is not only

inconsistent with reality it is an

impossibility

but we can conduct for experiments that

can forensic ly simulate the 911 attacks

experiments that challenge these

conspiracy theories

the reality is this far out no one has

been able to provide a single piece of

evidence that those buildings were

explosively demolished and the reason is

they weren't by presenting this new

evidence to the truthers they and we

might learn more about their theories

their beliefs and perhaps most

importantly why they want to believe you

take out some of those experiments you

paid a lot of money for but don't prove

anything you're going to have a lot of

time to to fill their that you can use

many conspiracy theories exist covering

every aspect of 9/11 many ask questions

that seem to have no answer many point

out apparent discrepancies in the

official story some are based on

erroneous data others on data that

cannot be explained of these many

theories four persist one of the central

tenants of the official investigation is

that the collapse of the Twin Towers was

initially fueled by the 19.000 gallons

of jet fuel contained in the two

airliners the fires burned inside the

Twin Towers and softened key columns

causing structural failure that led to

the building's collapse truthers dispute

happened there was a lot of jet fuel and

had caused a big fire those fires went

out very rapidly they found no evidence

that any of the steel columns had even

gotten up to the temperature where they

would begin to lose strength while the

jet fuel may have burned out quickly

video evidence suggests the building

fires it generated burned until the

towers collapsed if the government was a

and wanted to squelch any doubt as to

what happened why had they controlled

the evidence so strongly some truthers

claimed that official explanations serve

unknown ulterior motives who was

ultimately responsible for a lot of the

things that we still don't have answers

for answers to the questions that have

been ignored obfuscated blacked-out with

magic marker

there is physical evidence remaining of

the interior of the twin towers

sequestered in a remote corner of JFK

Airport is hangar 17

home to this remaining 1% of the world

trade center steal after their collapse

the debris was removed from Ground Zero

much of it was sold for scrap metal or

disposed of in dump sites but some key

artifacts were called and stored for

future display these artifacts suggest

the immensity of the collapse it's very

difficult to knock down something that's

this massive there's a million tons here

that had to start accelerating and

moving towards the ground and what

happened in this case is you had a whole

floor where the fires were that was one

acre and that steel was being softened

by the heat of the fire and as those

beams bent and buckled in the heat the

whole floor started to collapse and it

may have collapsed just a little bit on

one side and a little bit on the other

may have taken a couple of seconds but

once it got some of its momentum you

have another 15 or 20 floors above it

well 15 or 20 floors is several hundred

thousand tons now you have a pile driver

just pushing all the other floors down

Purdue University worked with the

American Society of Civil Engineers to

create a science-based simulation to

show the impact from the inside out

Purdue decided to model the first impact

to show how the American Airlines 767

penetrated the North Tower they began by

modeling the World Trade Center complex

seven buildings on a 16 acre plaza in

lower Manhattan this would be a living

model of the North Tower from the inside

out

Purdue used original construction

blueprints photographs and construction

data to create a wireframe World Trade

Center structure every column girder and

beam had to be in the correct place they

an aircraft with a weight of 141 tons

including 10.000 gallons of fuel

to model what this fuel load would do

upon collision Purdue launched

fluid-filled aluminum cans to simulate

an airplane wing impacting a steel

column a thermal camera captured the

impact and fluid behavior this raw data

was also added into the sequence

thousands of man-hours and twenty-one

days of computer rendering were needed

to show a total of one second of actual

time it took two years to complete the

project this is the final produce

science based simulation

the jetliner crashes into the 96th floor

severing a number of perimeter columns

in the structure and you see I can tell

you quite honestly that we didn't fudge

the broken columns and the facade by

calculation coincide almost exactly with

those that were broken so that our model

was correct

the simulation shows the impact from

many different angles entry

internal destruction of supporting

columns disintegration of the jetliner

atomizing of the 10.000 gallons of fuel

and the fires that attack the steel

network that supported the building

you see we're going to have a source of

heat here that covers almost the entire

core and that starts heating the columns

which are unprotected there is now no

insulation on them and it starts hitting

the beams see the beams in a manner of

speaking provide restraint at the edges

of the columns which are loaded axially

in the vertical direction so it takes

fuel and oxygen coming in of course to

add the fire the temperature here could

have reached beyond 1.200 degrees

and that doesn't melt the steel it

softens it and that softening makes the

restraints on the columns not as

effective and the column itself becomes

soft so it bends to one side and of

course there is a vertical load on it

that takes care of it so it goes away

and that's what happened in that

building

Purdue's findings confirm the report by

the National Institute of Standards and

Technology that widespread fires

initiated by the jet fuel weakened the

steel columns and brought down the

but the surviving metal in hangar 17

doesn't reveal clues to support either

side of the debate after walking around

here and looking at all this steel it

looks like exactly what I expect if a

bunch of steel had a bunch of concrete

and other steel fall on it I also don't

see any of the heat patterns that I'd

expect from anything other than the

fires that you might see after the thing

burned on the ground after everything

collapsed there's really nothing here

that wouldn't be expected from any

normal collapse of a building the chain

of possession of this surviving physical

evidence has been questioned by the

truthers most of the steel from the

World Trade Center destruction was

gathered up and shipped over to Asia and

melted down destroyed if you can imagine

destroying evidence from a crime scene

but that's exactly what happened but

before any steel was shipped NIST

examined all of the World Trade Center

steel and called 237 pieces for use in

believe that these girders are

deliberate substitutes for the real

evidence and if the destroyed evidence

could be examined it would prove

explosives were used to bring down the

a for 9/11 and since that one day there

have been zero examples of high-rise

steel frame buildings that have come

fires and truthers dismiss Purdue's

forensics simulation as the result of

inaccurate or falsified data

manipulation it was like that controlled

demolition the distinctive kind of

controlled emulation called implosion

that makes the building come straight

down so you've got massive amount of

evidence that points towards implosion

to address this controversy we will

conduct physical experiments to

illuminate what really happened in the

2.000 miles away from hangar 17 in the

jet fuel 2.000 degree heat and steel

girders are about to be put to the test

the major destructive events of 9/11 did

not occur as the world watched those

events took place deep within the World

Trade Center as the structures collapsed

from the inside out what happened in the

World Trade Center was we had thousands

of gallons of fuel all over the floor

the entire floor was burning all at once

and that meant that the steel everywhere

was being weakened whereas a normal fire

you're only weakened one little area at

a time despite official explanations

truthers gauge in Griffin's still

believe this fire alone could not have

brought the buildings down first of all

no steel frame high-rise building has

ever come down in a total collapse

because of any external damage or fire

even fire lasting 1215 or more hours jet

fuel is is basically kerosene which is a

hydrocarbon it doesn't burn any hotter

than desks or chairs in the building so

it's not some massive fuel that can melt

steel

with engineering expertise and a remote

jet fuel can do to steel emmerich the

energetic Materials Research and testing

center designs explosions to meet the

criteria of this test at Emmer Tech we

do tests and research in all kinds of

energetic materials anything is

explosive pyrotechnic if you light it

off and it gives lots of heat and lots

of noise then we pretty much test it out

here to show whether heat can really

affect steel an experiment will pit a

one-ton i-beam against 700 gallons of

jet fuel the official explanation of the

collapse of the World Trade Center is

that the fire in the building weakened

the beams that linked the central core

to the outer columns and that broke the

outer columns and brought the building

down so what we are trying to show is

that if we took a weighted beam in a

fuel flame and held it until it comes up

to the temperature which weakens the

steel it will actually fail that beam to

melt steel you have to get up to about

2600 degrees Fahrenheit and a fuel oil

fire is not gonna get hot enough to do

that but you don't have to get steel to

the melting point for it to start weak

me

in this test a steel i-beam like those

in the twin towers will be subjected to

the heat from a jet fuel fire the same

flammable liquid spilled from the

crashed airliners will the fire burn hot

enough to deform the steel within the

same window of time as the original

structural failure we're just go get the

beam in its 20 foot so we'll just Center

it up on here on one of the testing pads

workers construct a fire pit which will

contain a reservoir of jet fuel though

the World Trade Center had fire proofing

on the beams the National Institute of

Standards and Technology reports that

material had been knocked off at the

moment of impact and where the

insulation was dislodged the temperature

of the steel rose rapidly so in our test

a bear beam is used we're not doing an

actual full-scale being because to load

a full-scale beam would take an immense

load and so we've scaled it back we just

have a small eye beam it's w 8 by 18

which makes me mean 8 inches high 18

pounds per foot and we're loading it

with about 3.000 pounds unless you want

to tack them on lift them and cut them

off pack them on these weights ensure

that the beam was scaled to match the

design load of the steel this beam is

then placed over the fire pit

the 700 gallons of jet fuel is now

pumped into the pit the fuel truck must

be grounded any stray spark could ignite

the jet fuel the temperature of the fire

is a critical factor therefore a thermal

coupler is set in place to monitor

temperature basically this is a liquid

fuel it's got to vaporize before it can

burn so we just got to get warm enough

to start vaporizing and burn it an

electric match detonates the fuel 500

yards away from any personnel we put it

in empty box there's a flotation device

so float on the fuel for a little while

the jet fuel is calculated to burn for

30 minutes

we'll the metal maintained its

structural integrity

within two minutes the thermocoupler

temperature peak just above 2000 degrees

Fahrenheit

complete structural failure took less

than four minutes the steel twisted in

the heat and the weights fell off

obviously in this environment we're

getting 18 to 2.000 degrees the steel is

not going to win its strength for more

than about five minutes this experiment

concludes that exposed steel heated by

jet fuel will commence to lose its

strength far below its 2600 degree

Fahrenheit melting point within minutes

an unstable structure is created in the

World Trade Center this heat would have

been more than sufficient to soften the

steel and this combined heat and the

weight of the structure would have

caused deformation across entire floors

of course the World Trade Center managed

to stand for more than five minutes

after the impact so they weren't seeing

quite these kinds of temperatures but

still this is showing that if you heat

up steel it is going to lose strength

and it will fail but evidence no matter

how conclusive is still subject to

debate to fully understand the dynamics

of an alleged 9/11 conspiracy one must

also observe how truthers process

information that challenges their

beliefs we shared the results of this

test with two truthers conversant with

these fire issues okay yeah let's stop

here I think I know where this guy's

going he's going to test an isolated

piece of steel if so that's a straw man

argument this test does not refute or

even address the overwhelming evidence

for explosive controlled demolition

David Ray Griffin theologian and author

of eight books that posit the

government's involvement in the 9/11

attacks and Richard gage a practicing

architect for 20 years has designed

numerous fireproofed steel framed

buildings gage believes the entire

experiment is irrelevant and it ignores

his own conclusion that the collapse was

due to controlled demolition this is the

reason I say that it's irrelevant

because they have experiments like this

that show that steel weakens in fires

it's easier and more profound for me to

say its ear relevant you can turn the

steel into a noodle I will still we

still have the evidence of our explosive

refute David Griffin also believes the

experiment is irrelevant but for

this shows that under ideal artificial

conditions you can get jet fuel to burn

at 2.000 degrees so to have something

analogous to this little experiment with

this little tiny piece of uninterrupted

steel you're going to have to have a

very long fire lasting 18 to 2.000

degrees to get anything like that so I

would say this experiment shows

absolutely nothing of relevance to the

issue after the experiment both sides

still maintained their own conclusion

but both truthers and the 9/11

Commission would agree on one fact the

building's clearly did collapse

they disagree on the cause

if the collapse wasn't caused by the

fire from the jet fuel truthers believe

it had to have been the result of a

controlled demolition but it is possible

to address this issue of demolition in a

very direct way by demolishing a

building and forensic ly examining the

result

the collapse of the World Trade Center

was so sudden it sparked allegations of

controlled demolition and that makes it

a central tenant of many conspiracy

theories

what we're looking at is the massive

overwhelming evidence for explosive

controlled demolition of the structure

nist concludes that they found no

evidence suggesting that the World Trade

Center towers were brought down by

controlled demolition where would people

get an idea like that conspiracists

based these conclusions on a series of

visual observations number one the

sudden onset of destruction the fires

you tend to get slow collapse and

instead it moves all of a sudden as if

there were explosives that took out the

support and then things start to move

number two videos show isolated

explosive ejections 20 to 40 stories

below the demolition front these are

propelled by explosive speeds that

cannot be denied number three the towers

collapse at freefall speed through the

path of greatest resistance how do you

get the upper structure to fall at

nearly freefall speed through all this

material that's in the way number four

first responders reported explosions and

flashes you had over a hundred members

of the New York Fire Department given

testimonies about explosions going off

before and while they were coming down

number five twelve hundred foot diameter

debris field no pancake floors found not

one floor is found at the bottom of this

hundred ten floor pancake collapse in

either tower and so the only way to

explain it is that there's some other

energy source in the building doing all

of this work and all of the evidence

most of which we have not seen in the

official reports at all suggests and

supports the theory of explosive

but before any debate about these

demolition claims the perpetrators must

have loaded both towers with thousands

of explosives without being detected

would that even be possible this is a

key component of any demolition theory

there is only one way to really

understand how a demolition works and

that is to watch one as it unfolds on a

college campus we followed step by step

the complex process of explosive prep

and loading destined to claim a nine

story steel frame dormitory before the

blast team can do their job which is

actually attach explosives to the

building there's a general demolition

contractor who prepares the building for

neighbors demolition moves on to the

site and knocks out the brick facade on

the bottom two floors creating a soft

ground floor the first thing they did

here was they cut away the walls and

exposed to the columns a blaster or

explosives cannot do anything without

columns being exposed you need to have

access to them in the Twin Towers the

demolition team would have needed access

to 47 inner core columns without being

detected truthers believe that access

existed actually they had all the access

that they needed all they had to do was

get into the elevator shaft and they

would have access to the core columns

and beams throughout the building they

might need a cover story such as an

elevator modernization which it turns

out was going on prior to 9/11 the tower

elevators were renovated in 2000 with

this theoretical access how could this

large demolition team have worked in

secret the time it takes to plant these

charges varies from structure to

structure a lot of prep work for World

Trade Center you know oh you see what it

takes for a little eight story building

we've been in here for the last couple

of weeks I mean the columns on the World

Trade Center is 10 times bigger than

what we're cutting out here it is such a

disruptive process you're tearing down

the walls you're exposing beams and then

you're preparing those beams

you can't just do that in a day you

can't do that overnight you can't do

that with a stealth team of ninjas you

we need a whole lot more than three

weeks it'd probably take us three months

four months six months maybe even big

something like that you'd have to have

at least 100 guys or so more to get in

there and get something like get ready

the truthers feel they don't need to

provide an answer for how the explosives

were planted this is a very different

kind of operation a real investigation

would provide some of these answers if

we had subpoena power which the 911

Commission did not have with the

building ready the demolition team

prepares the various explosives on-site

to cut steel beams demolition teams use

a shaped charge this actually is a piece

of copper it is part of a shape charge

weapon and what happens is you put a

little explosive in each one of these

little pockets and you set off the

charge and this whole rim implodes and

you get a stream of liquid copper and

this jet of copper will cut through

steel no matter what the exact shape of

the charge they all will react the same

cutting steel when detonated

now personnel clear and the demolition

team places copper shaped charges on all

24 support columns this is a linear

shaped charge and it's wired in with the

with the dynamite when it cuts it'll cut

this column right on this angle and then

this piece will be deflected in this

display step in that direction you have

to do the math but it's 400 grains to a

foot 7.000 grains to make a pound so

it's not really that much but it's

potent stuff I mean it'll just blow the

snot out of that concrete after double

checking their explosives the demolition

team touches off the fuse

buried in this pile of debris should be

hard evidence pointing to implosion

evidence that should have been found in

the rubble of the World Trade Center the

search begins here's a piece right here

you know the blue way here's a whole

rat's nest that's still tied into the

building you can't remove all of this

stuff Richard gage disagrees with

Blanchard's conclusion it's a different

kind of detonation they would not leave

detonator cords and devices as they do

in traditional more economical

detonations this is this is a very

different kind of operation there's a

lot of circumstantial claims a lot of

innuendo a lot of whack-a-mole which you

explain one thing away and they mention

something else and it never ends but the

reality is this far out no one has been

able to provide a single piece of

evidence that those buildings were

the truthers believe there may be an

ulterior reason for the demolition

experts skepticism the firms that do

control demolition high-rises work for

the most wealthy people and our federal

government they cannot possibly support

the controlled demolition theory and

maintain their clientele projecting the

manpower and time needed to place

explosives in the 110-story towers

exposes a major defect in the controlled

demolition theory the elevator upgrade

referred to by truthers might have

provided access to the core columns but

a large demolition team would still have

needed to work in secret

to break through the gypsum board walls

and to cut through each column with an

acetylene torch the lack of any

demolition evidence in the debris pile

at Ground Zero also undermines this

theory but truthers believe the evidence

or lack of evidence from our experiment

points to the real source of the

demolition brent blanchard also talks

about that there's no detonator cord

down in the debris piles well we're

talking about a very high-tech nano

thermite and it's detonation mechanism

is not even known by Brent Blanchard

much less the technology that was used

to bring down the World Trade Center

high-rises was very sophisticated

high-tech nano thermite is beyond the

technology used by those performing

classic controlled demolitions in that

industry they don't know about it they

told us they don't know much about it

again our tests don't change the

conclusions made by either side

molten metal exceeding 2.000 degrees

Fahrenheit was discovered in the rubble

underneath the twin towers and building

7 even with heavy rain on September 14th

and 21st a constant stream of fire

retardant sand water described as

creating a giant lake these fires would

not be extinguished until December 13th

2001 making it the longest burning

if thermite was the key to the

conspiracy then we need to observe how

thermite burns and destroys as well and

in the New Mexico desert that

demonstration is about to begin

there are many questions surrounding

9/11 that have provoked conspiracy

theories the sudden collapse of the Twin

Towers has perhaps been the most

controversial although a search of the

remaining beams in columns from the twin

towers have found no evidence of an

explosive reaction some truthers are

adamant that the towers were brought

down by a controlled demolition and

these explosions were observed by

eyewitnesses one eyewitness was standing

among a crowd of people on Church Street

two and a half blocks from the South

Tower when he saw a number of brief

light sources being emitted from inside

the building between floors 10 and 15 he

saw about six of these flashes

accompanied by a crackling sound before

the tower collapsed professional

demolition teams use a shaped charge

made from a c4 explosive to cut steel

and send buildings crashing into their

own footprint so this is a commercial

product so basically just apply it

wherever you put a debt it's going to

start firing it's gonna fire molten

metal directly into the column and go

right through it like it wasn't there

an explosion sends a stream of molten

copper cutting through the steel

but the real evidence of any demolition

job is in the aftermath conspiracists

claim thermite explains not only the

unusual dust composition but also why

molten metal was found in the debris at

the World Trade Center underneath the

rubble you have firemen reporting a lava

like material this molten metal is found

by first responders several tons of it

in the base of all three World Trade

Center high-rises molten steel in the

rubble so somehow steel did melt and yet

the fire was not anywhere close to the

temperature required to melt steel

columns in the World Trade Center debris

did not have the distinctive cut of a

shape charge with its permanent copper

residue I don't see any pictures where I

see columns have been cut like this

I see columns that are broken I see

columns that are cut with a torch I

don't see anything like this any of the

pictures I've seen charred detonators

and other telltale signs were also

absent in the World Trade Center clean

up but truthers believe dust residue New

Yorkers sampled from across lower

Manhattan after the attacks point to the

real instigator of the collapse what I

found last year was in the dust

these chips that were red on one side

and gray on the other side and I had

access to a scanning electron microscope

and sure enough there was in the red

side iron and oxygen implying an iron

oxide and aluminum ingredients for

thermite then we look in the literature

and compare and sure enough the bellows

at Livermore National Lab is not saying

they're implicated here by Emmys but

they they described a material that has

all these elements it's a very high-tech

form of thermite called super-thermite

thermite may not be a household term but

every year countless American children

play with it in its common form the

a compound of aluminum and iron oxide

once ignited it burns at 4.500 degrees

Fahrenheit hot enough to melt steel

although truthers blamed thermite for

these sparks flowing from the South

Thomas eager says there are other more

logical explanations it's possible that

you could get a shower of sparks from a

thermite reaction because molten

essentially a thermite reaction

but you can't tell whether that aluminum

came from a melting of the airplanes in

the fire or a controlled demolition was

thermite the main cause of the building

collapse once again there is a way to

find out Emer Tech calculated a

controlled experiment to see if thermite

was a viable option in the collapse of

the towers today we're gonna be going

through a column that's only eight

inches by six inches by about half inch

thick so compared to the World Trade

Center columns it's it's really puny and

we're still using over a hundred pounds

of thermite to try to burn through it to

get thermite to burn into metal you have

to hold it in place and let the heat

transfer into the metal so to put it on

column you have to build something that

will hold this basically molten metal

against the column long an effort to do

some good the demolition team designs a

four-sided flange and welds it onto the

column since thermite is not explosive

it must be held in tight contact with

the column until it heats up enough to

melt the steel clay is added to the

flange in the welds to protect them from

the heat and focus the melting action on

the column the thermite is not going to

explode it's not going to cause a boom

what you're gonna see is basically a

fire it's gonna be a much slower process

the team scaled their experiment to see

if the steel column somewhat smaller

than those in the World Trade Center

could be sheared with 175 pounds of

commercial grade thermite

if thermite melts through this steel

column the theory of a thermite

controlled demolition may have some

validity while the truthers insists that

more explosive super thermite could have

been used in the tower demolitions

testing conventional thermite can

illuminate this physical process and

answer a simple question can thermite of

any type burn through steel beams

whining of clay wasn't a total success

we can see where the clay broke off but

it looks like most of the material just

basically boiled out and we did not get

that heating action that we wanted on

the call despite 175 pounds of thermite

packed around the steel column it

remained undamaged

our results seem clear if thermite can't

melt this small column it wouldn't have

had a chance to melt through the much

larger columns in the twin towers not

surprisingly the truthers questioned

these results we did not get that

heating action that we wanted on the

column this guy is going back and forth

between super thermite and thermite he's

talking just ordinary macro thermite I

mean he pointed out he couldn't get the

other stuff Stephen can't get it either

so all you can do is read the literature

the military has all of this they won't

sure super thermite in the sol-gel form

can be painted on it's not until it

dries and hardens that it becomes

explosive while Stephen Jones envisions

an easy thermite application amer tech

asserts that even if this military

substance could be found it still would

not have been practical to use if you

take just a thin layer of thermite it'd

be tough to light to begin with but even

if you did it's just gonna flash and

there's hardly any energy there so is

the argument then oh well even though

you'll find super thermite looking

residue it doesn't make sense so we just

won't do an investigation we'll just

kind of ignore the residues that you

found that blow up today because we

can't figure out how they could do it

and therefore we don't have to look once

again physical evidence that seems

conclusive to one side is rejected by

the other

no where is this dichotomy more

pronounced than in the events that took

place at the other Ground Zero of

September 11th the Pentagon those that

think a 757 did not hit are fueled by

the damage to the building and lack of

large structural debris outside

particularly the lack of damage from the

winnings and vertical stabilizer and the

fact that those objects as well as the

engines were never fully recovered

rejecting pictures that show airliner

debris truthers believed that something

else struck the Pentagon either a plane

loaded with explosives or some other

flying warhead once again a theory needs

to be put to a forensic test there were

two simultaneous attacks on American

soil on September 11th 2001 the attack

on the Pentagon has also been questioned

by the 9/11 truth movement one Theory

distills many of their arguments this is

the official story

about 30 minutes after takeoff the plane

is hijacked and is turned towards

Washington

flying just over the highway the

jetliner heads were the Pentagon's

Western facade

189 people are killed Purdue University

analyzed this sequence of events and

created a visual simulation of the

attack

we had the plans for the Pentagon all

the details right down to the last

reinforcing bar the speed of the

airplane and the direction from which

game was given to us by the Transport

Safety Institute which presumably came

from the black box that they found

afterwards Purdue broke down the event

into its basic components flight 77s

path its trajectory the fuselage

breaking up and aftermath and what

you're seeing here is that as the plane

enters the columns cut in the front

which is pretty fragile it's really

nothing but a cylinder and that when the

column comes it cuts into it

the Pentagon building itself killed no

one there was a collapse about 25

minutes later after the firemen came

there and started filling the building

full of water

an FBI diagram shows where the bodies of

the airplanes 64 victims were found and

that too shows the progress of the

airplane into the building the pilots

their corpses are in front and the

people who were sitting in the back of

the airplane you find our bodies further

in so that the debris was floating in

sort of like a really allama flow

through the building depositing itself

as it went along I have no doubts about

the fact that the structure was hit by

an airplane if the nose caused this hole

where's the rest of the debris from the

plane so what could blow a 16-foot hole

in the outer ring of the Pentagon smash

through nine feet of steel reinforced

concrete and leave another 16-foot hole

missing

at first they said that their cameras

didn't capture it they're like none of

our cameras captured the event we have

no footage you're never gonna see what

happened the truthers consider the

supposed lack of video evidence a

smoking gun from the eyewitnesses that I

spoke to stretching as far back as a

mile away from the Pentagon they all saw

a large plane headed for the building

with that being said what may have

actually struck the building I can't

prove David Ray Griffin denies that

there was any trace of any airplane at

the Pentagon site what we are confident

of is what didn't happen the damage to

the Pentagon was not caused by flight 77

crashing into it first of all there was

no physical evidence at the scene of any

Patrick Smith is an author and

commercial pilot who writes for the

online publication salon I think the

wreckage that you see at the Pentagon is

perfectly consistent with an airplane

going several hundred miles an hour into

a reinforced masonry building you know

that's not a normal airline crash where

you tend to have large chunks of the

plane still intact David Ray Griffin has

a different opinion he had people

outside the building who had people

inside the building they all reported no

big pieces of an airplane the government

tells me it was flight 77 but I haven't

seen any serial numbers I haven't seen

any wreckage positively identified from

flight 77 and I don't think that Hani

Hani would have pulled off the maneuver

basically just up there flailing around

I think the the maneuvers for lack of a

better term that he was performing you

know proved him to be the crappy pilot

truthers insists that the damage to the

Pentagon gaping holes without a telltale

wing or tail imprint could only have

been made by a missile or bomb is it

possible that a commercial airliner

could account for this hole and this

catastrophic damage inside the Pentagon

we asked Mr tech to develop a two-part

test to examine this issue first they

will launch a projectile into a

simulated structure that damage pattern

will then be compared to the actual

Pentagon pictures second they will plant

a bomb in this same structure and after

the explosion again compared that debris

we're going to look at the difference

between a projectile striking structure

versus an explosive event in the

structure so I'm trying to see

that a plane striking a building is

ability this 1.000 foot steel rail is

built for speed what we're trying to do

is get the projectile moving at 500

miles an hour about the same speed as

the aircraft the sled track will launch

a projectile propelled by a 5-inch

rocket motor this orange tube is

actually an approximation of the

airplane because of the fact that it's

just a thin wall aluminum cylinder which

in effect is all an airplane is this

just doesn't have the wings the tail we

want to just leave it as the cylinder

shape so we know where it goes and

impacts our target Purdue asserts it was

the impacting body of the jetliner that

did the damage the wings were of little

consequence because the Pentagon was so

heavily reinforced workers position of

four tons steel backstop to prevent the

500 mile per hour sled from impacting

the Pentagon target we are not

recreating the Pentagon we just have

some common building materials as our

target so I'm not claiming that this is

a simulation of the actual event I'm

between and projectile striking and an

explosive event 10 spaced cement boards

make up a scaled-down target mirroring

the five rings of the Pentagon

the projectile is strapped on to the

once the optimal speed is obtained

blades sliced the webbing to release the

projectile you'll see that we'll hit and

impact both knife blades at the same

time there's one on this side and one on

this side workers prepare the target and

move it into place rocket motors always

considered dangerous because there are a

low voltage initiated item and they're

also radiation hazard they also have a

lot of fire and heat they can detonate

if they're mishandled the demolition

team is secured inside a blast free zone

and the countdown begins

the first test is a failure a

miscalculation in weight sends the

projectile at an oblique angle punching

through the target at roof level

whatever hit the Pentagon hit directly

so this off center angle invalidates any

comparison Amur Tech must now rebuild

from scratch and prepare another test

but even if this second test is

successful truthers may not be convinced

richard gage finds the pentagon

aftermath pictures too confusing

to use in any evaluation so whether an

explosion made that hole or or some

flying device made that hole I don't

think you can make a relevant conclusion

based on looking at the whole now our

second sled is ready to fire truthers

claimed American Airlines flight 77 did

not hit the Pentagon on the morning of

September 11th 2001

opinions differ at this point people

that believe a 757 hit the Pentagon and

people the guilty those that believe a

757 did hit are fueled by the damage

path wreckage outside the building and

eyewitness testimony

truthers believed that an explosion or

missile caused the damage at the

Pentagon we shouldn't need another

wake-up call the official story declares

that a jetliner with 64 passengers

building to shed light on this

discrepancy Amur Tech designed a rocket

sled experiment to test the difference

between a projectile impact and an

explosive event but due to a

miscalculation in their projectile

scaling the impact on the structure was

no comparison could be made to the

Pentagon aftermath even though it wasn't

penetration of three walls if it didn't

pitch in y-you would see it actually it

would have it would have had a nice

impact

the team prepares a second projectile

and a new rocket sled to carry out their

original experiment so we've added some

more grout for this tube just so it'll

carry through the structure and we're

just go again

the team is sequestered for the

countdown and launch the motor ignites

the projectile travels 1.000 feet in

five seconds

at 970 feet sharpened steel cuts the

restraints

the projectile launches into free flight

it makes a direct hit into the target

this time the experiment is a success

and we can see damage is projecting from

the front to the back and it's about the

size of our projectile all the way

through the results of this test show

what the impact looks like the structure

is basically intact with a penetration

hole the approximate size of the

projectile this photo shows the exterior

wall of the Pentagon just moments after

the impact the facade is damaged and the

holes created essentially matched the

dimensions of a 757 jetliner David Ray

Griffin sees this evidence differently

let's assume it is a fact that something

went through this outer reinforced

facade and went clear through through

the see ring well that was so ridiculous

because the nose of a 757 is so fragile

it wouldn't have made it through the

outer facade let you know I mean it's

just

to test the official explanation and

address the truthers beliefs that this

damage pattern was caused by an

explosive device Amer Tech conducted a

second experiment to demonstrate the

very apparent differences between impact

and explosive detonation and now we're

gonna put a small explosive charge and

see how the damage is different to

simulate a warhead going off we're gonna

put a ebw detonator into a one pound

penalize booster charge and we're going

to position it in a in an attitude in

there to simulate a warhead on the on

the nose of the missile like the rocket

that we just sent through here we'll

have to tape it on all right at this

point we're ready to clear the range and

Prime in and shoot it

okay so here's the remains of our

structure we just hung one pound charge

right about here and you can see that it

blew the structure away from the point

of explosion so move the floor down blew

that's when an explosive does it drives

everything away from the explosive

charge so this is a completely different

kind of damage than we saw from the

projectile we just went right through it

though Amur Tech demonstrations indicate

a penetration rather than an explosion

this does little to end the debate David

Ray Griffin doesn't agree with this

emerged that showed it is a gash it's

about 90 feet long now it's very uneven

and it even looks like the stuff is

coming out rather than going in so some

explosions pushing the metal outward so

it's no clear proof for anything one way

or the other

gage and Griffin returned to our first

experiment with the rocket sled and

simulated jetliner right they asked to

speak with Mr Tex Robert Abernathy it

seemed like you were scaling down this

the size of the aluminum to a very very

thin wall and and yet you kept the speed

at 500 miles an hour I got that doesn't

seem like a fair scaling had you thought

about that

I saw that David Ray Griffin has a

question to the experiment you did is it

is it relevant anymore

oh the outer hole the the end of facade

well possibly I mean it's it's one

theory yeah well you know the first

there have been lots of theories and I

don't think we probably need to go into

yeah I mean I realize this is awkward

you spell we're telling you this is

worthless

clearly the truthers are reluctant to

accept the results of our Pentagon tests

or any of the official explanations

the truthers are determined to believe

that the official story is wrong

the experiments the arguments the

government investigations it makes no

difference but if the official story is

wrong what story is right who is behind

this catastrophe how is this complicated

attack pulled off while our truthers

find fault with the official account

they are reluctant to provide their own

operational theory we are not conspiracy

theorists we're looking at the science

based rational facts found at the crime

scene and otherwise available to us we

make recommendations for a new

investigation it's up to the American

people to demand a real investigation

with subpoena power that may reveal who

may have done it how they did it what

are all the surrounding circumstances we

don't speculate about those matters it's

beyond our purview all these questions

why do they do this why did they do that

those could be answered easily enough

you put people under oath you threaten

them with prison you offer the

underlings amnesty if they tell the

truth immunity

how do you find out who did it and how

in detail they planted these charges

well that requires a formal criminal

investigation we need the other side we

need the subpoena power of a committee

but if the official story is wrong

something else must have happened on

September 11th 2001

though many truthers shy away from

positing their own theories one very

elaborate explanation for the events of

9/11 has been proposed and by dissecting

this theory we can illuminate insights

into both the conspiracy and the

truthers who believe it

truthers are certain in their beliefs

that the official story of the 9/11

attacks is wrong and when confronted by

any evidence that questions their

beliefs that evidence is rejected this

is an inside job that the people at the

World Trade Center and the people at the

Pentagon were murdered by forces within

our own government that's clearly what

most of us in the 9/11 truth movement

believe David Aaronovitch has recently

written a book that examines the world

of conspiracy theories and truthers he

is skeptical of both as long as

conspiracy theorists are confined to

raising what they call disturbing

questions about what about the official

theory they're on safe ground

but as soon as they get into the

business of saying what their theories

are clearly what we think happened then

they have to begin to make some

evidential tests too and it's at this

point the conspiracy theories inevitably

falter

but there are parallel theories about

the events of 9/11 one theory that

gained traction on the Internet suggests

that the real planes were diverted and

remotely piloted rogue planes loaded

with high explosives took their place

our experiments have shown both the

World Trade Center and that a cruise

missile hitting the Pentagon is an

unlikely scenario however there is

another theory that proposes a different

plan of attack that can account for both

the precision and destructive impacts

measured in our four tests in this

scenario for commercial passenger jets

takeoff is scheduled here is a timeline

of this theory

8:30 a. m. in the alternate theory a

rogue plane painted to look like the

assumes the flight path of American

Airlines 11 which is diverted to a

secret airfield controlled by the

military in Pennsylvania

8:46 am another rogue plane swaps with

the real American Airlines 77 at this

rogue American Airlines 11 hits the

North Tower of the World Trade Center

853 a. m. rogue United 175 takes on the

flight path of United Airlines 175

meanwhile American Airlines 11 lands at

the secret airfield 9:02 a. m. rogue

United Airlines 175 strikes the South

Tower of the World Trade Center

as the real United Airlines 175 lands

937 am rogue American Airlines 77 passes

over the Pentagon and a fighter jet or

cruise missile under remote control

crashes into the west side

10:06 a. m. United Airlines 93 is shot

down eliminating all innocent witnesses

this timeline accounts for many things

but like the other conspiracy theories

it has at least one major flaw it would

require a very large number of people to

succeed if a 911 to have been a

conspiracy we would be talking about

several thousand people having to be

involved we would be talking about

people in the military we'd be talking

about people in the police we're talking

about people in the New York City

government people in the national

government people for the airlines we'd

be talking about relatives of some of

those who were supposed to have phoned

officials at National City and statewide

those who are responsible subsequently

for intimidating other witnesses out of

talking we'd be talking about the

demolition teams who were sent into the

towers we'd be talking about the people

who let them into the towers in the

first place who saw them go in and

decided not to give witness afterwards

thousands and thousands of people it's

obviously the US government has a long

history of being involved in all kinds

of shenanigans and dishonest things but

this is so far beyond the pale this

would be a conspiracy that would have to

involve thousands if not tens of

thousands of people and it involved the

slaughter of five or six thousand people

and there's just so many moving parts

and that's just not the way that

conspiracies work in real life it's too

massive and too messy and and it just

involves too many people for them to

pull off successfully award-winning

author David Baldacci has made

conspiracy his business his recent

best-selling series involves

conspiracies at the highest levels of

government he believes his fictional

stories are more plausible than these

conspiracy theories I could build a

conspiracy theory out of pretty much

anything you know it's just that not

people not knowing absolutely JFK was

probably the most classic example of

that people don't want to believe it was

one guy and they don't want to believe

it was one guy because they don't

believe that in some ways one one guy

was able to do that because that means

that we were inept even in a fictional

context Baldacci believes that the more

participants the less likely a secret

can be preserved I've read a lot of the

conspiracy theories about 9/11 on the

internet and news but all different

venues and for me all of them are too

conspiracies are only as strong as its

weakest link if you only have one thing

that goes wrong in that chain your

co-conspirator rat you out the whole

conspiracy collapses so not even bother

with who is behind it or what the

motivation was what are the ground

forces you would need the elements you

would need to take on a 9/11 sort of

situation you need to make it simple not

complicated the amount of money that

would have had to have been involved in

planning this conspiracy it just boggles

the mind I mean if you think about all

the different people who would have had

to have been on the payroll the

hijackers themselves the people in the

Air Force who allowed it to happen

people in the press who turned a blind

eye to all this the the White House

officials who covered it up the FBI

people who conducted the phony

investigation the 9/11 Commission report

people who conducted their phony

investigation all the members of

Congress people like me at Rolling Stone

magazine who refused to investigate in

order to further their careers or

whatever it was it's preposterous but if

the logic behind a vast 9/11 conspiracy

unravels under forensic scrutiny why do

so many truthers embrace it one of the

things that I think motivates us to one

conspiracy theories is that we have a

huge desire for what we might call

narrative the stories look at the

structure of the stories that we prefer

look at the structures of fairy stories

they are made in a very kind of

particular way and conspiracy theories

are fairy story realities they are a

narrative that improves upon reality

burned up all the fuel that was present

so you wouldn't have it is clear that

people who want to believe will believe

stop we don't refute every detail we

refute most details the answer may lie

as much in the past as it does in the

present nobody wants to feel like they

were just beaten by just one person

random guy who picked up a gun and had

you know a vague idea of what he was

what I'm gonna do went up into the Book

Depository building opened the window

and blew away the president United

nobody wants to believe that it's human

mentality to want to build complex

scenarios to answer simple questions and

I think that that wasn't JFK Marilyn

Monroe 9/11 you know the list can go on

and on Merrick Raymond Joseph

millions of people around the world

believe the truth behind 9/11 has not

been told we have been and continued to

about the events of September 11th and

that elements within the United States

government and mainstream media continue

to cover up the truth

I think that is one of the reasons why

an actual investigation hasn't been

brought forward because it would still

be an investigative body within the

jurisdiction of the United States

government there would still be a way

for the investigation to be compromised

and I feel that our country our

government and our mindset as a whole

would not be where it is today without

9/11 and I don't think it's by accident

I think it's by design recent history

provides parallels to the 9/11 truth

movement

there are three locations in America

that mark a recent national trauma and

the birthplace of a conspiracy

Pearl Harbor Dealey Plaza

and Ground Zero

there might be a map into the dark heart

of these common grounds author David

Aaronovitch has examined from an

historical perspective the rise and the

rare fall of conspiracy theories there's

a really interesting comparison to be

made between the 9/11 conspiracy theory

and that which was widely believed by

the American right about Pearl Harbor

they they believed because they were

defeated in their desire for America not

to go to war by the very fact of Pearl

Harbor and they rationalize it by saying

that Roosevelt had brought about Pearl

and there's something very common to

that with the theory about 9/11 which is

that in order to get his war in the

Middle East which for some reason he'd

wanted Bush had effectively done the

same thing he had brought about or

actually made happen

the attack on of the Twin Towers and

there's almost a feel like a kind of

perfect symmetry between the defeated

anti-war people of 1940 and the defeated

anti-war people of 2001 in the case of

JFK there was the suggestion that

America was the kind of society that

spawned people who would cut off very

promising national leaders in their

prime you know the Lee Harvey Oswald's

one of the things that we've got to

remember about both the murder of JFK

and 9/11 was the enormous trauma that

they caused I mean real psychological

damage and in the case of 9/11 that

America was so hated abroad that people

would want to do this to it in a way a

kind of less traumatic explanation in a

funny sort of sense was that there were

shadowy forces at work in the government

that actually were responsible for both

that explanation was slightly more

tolerable than the real explanations

were that the world was an incredibly

difficult place or that there were

people in American society who were

deeply troubled and who had been and

likely to cause mayhem if given the

chance what we do is we ask questions of

people who really know the answers and

we come to our own conclusions by you

know by surveying all the answers to all

the questions that we asked and I've

asked dozens of structural engineers and

scientists about what happened on 9/11

and the answer I uniformly get from

credible sources is overall the story

tends to be supported by the evidence

they did it in order to get their Wars

their oil and in order to impose tyranny

on the American people

some experts believe there is a strong

psychological component to these belief

systems I talked about conspiracy

theories with friends of mine and

acquaintances who work in the fields of

psychoanalysis and psychotherapy not

least because one of the major

estimations always given is that people

are paranoid two things came out really

first was the desire to have a story

always that is better than reality

we demand the story it completes

something in us conspiracy theory is an

improvement upon reality somebody has

designed the whole thing to happen

exactly like that there are no accidents

there are no contingencies and as one

friend of mine put it the thing about

paranoia is that there is something

worse than paranoia is what he calls the

catastrophe of indifference conspiracy

theories posits a situation which we're

never on our own because there's always

some form of intelligence organizing the

events of the world in some kind of

shape or pattern but suppose there isn't

the shape or a pattern that's the thing

which is really intolerable

this perspective might explain the real

forensics conclusions but the reaction

of those who seem to dispute not only

these findings but the entire idea of

testing the strengths or weaknesses of

their arguments but no one no matter

what their beliefs can deny that a

trauma occurred that has not been healed

and in fact may never be healed

what happened on 9/11

the gap between truthers and the

official story seems more and more like

a chasm

if you show film footage of that

building collapsing on your show and I

hope you do it looks precisely like

those film footages of controlled

demolitions of housing projects in the

ghetto I have my doubts of exactly what

went on how it went how it went down and

like who was informed and just how it'll

happen unless my eyes are conspiracy I

mean they're entitled to their opinions

but you know what they say about

opinions I'll say it again why are they

hiding from us what are they hiding from

us and what's it going to take until

people in this country give a damn and

America has been hijacked not by Al

Qaeda not by Osama bin Laden but by a

group of tyrants ready and willing to do

whatever it takes to keep their

stranglehold on this country

the reason these conspiracy theories are

going to go on forever is that their

only goal is to get something they can't

possibly get which is complete and total

access to all the files and all the

information in the Pentagon and in the

White House they want a full and

absolute investigation of every agency

of the government and they're never

going to get that and they know that but

it goes without saying doesn't it that

any of us who argue against conspiracy

theories are part of the conspiracy

it's interesting that for conspiracy

theorists it's quite often the case that

others their own sincerity is not in

doubt the sincerity of others is a huge

problem

why the secrecy if we were taken by

surprise if this truly was a surprise

terrorist attack in our country why the

why is everything national security why

is everything oh this is an open

investigation if we were caught off

guard if we truly were the victims of a

why are we so reticent to share the

evidence about what happened why is the

government so unwilling to tell us what

they know why the secrecy instead of

accepting the facts presented by experts

truthers continue their search for

elusive answers there's way too much

secrecy obfuscation and denial going on

for 9/11 to have been what it is

advertised as so all these questions

that people throw at us all we have

shown is overwhelmingly redundant

evidence its officials Dorian's fault

in one sense 9/11 is just one more false

flag operation in a long series of these

but in another sense it is qualitatively

different

it is so obviously a false flag

operation the official story is so

obviously false it is the biggest most

complex false flag operation of all time

there isn't a point that I can see where

by David Ray Griffin and I are going to

be able to sit down in a room and say to

you know what we've come to a mutually

agreed version of what the events are I

can't see any way in which this

quasi-religious need to believe in the

conspiracy which has been grown and

which is confirmed with every meeting

they undertake with every email they

send each other is going to be

dissipated

what I did say to a young 9/11 truther

last week I said look I have this bet

it's a really irritating one for you but

in 20 years time when I'm on my deathbed

you'll come to me and say you know that

silly theory I had back in 2009 I repent

the truth about 9/11 may never be agreed

upon

here that debate seems strangely out of

place

this is not just a hangar full of

wreckage this is a still open wound and

that wound cannot will not and perhaps

should not ever be completely healed