Cinéma, de notre temps (1988–…): Season 1, Episode 59 - Kurosawa, au dos des images - full transcript
It's fantastic here.
Those people that are there....
I feel I want to film them
just as they are...
...by placing the main character
among them, in a casual way.
The atmosphere here...
...is an amalgamation of diverse eras
and social classes.
It's very interesting.
All those cables there...
they're quite beautiful.
After being in Paris for 6 months,
I'd completely forgotten about cables.
Back home in Tokyo,
they're everywhere you look...
running backwards and forwards.
There was a time
when I hated them.
But once I came to realise that
there was no getting way from them...
...not only in Tokyo,
but in any city in Japan...
...I decided I should
start filming them...
It's the contrast that's beautiful.
Thus reminds me
so much of Tokyo.
You've met all these people,
haven't you?
I don't remember.
Well...
...what about this one?
I don't know him.
It's you yourself.
We look alike.
So now we're sure of one thing.
That's you. Agreed?
I don't know this man.
Could it be me?
Who are you?
Kiyoshi Kurosawa
On the back of the images
I shot my first
commercial movie here...
...in the Nikkatsu studio.
And just two weeks ago...
...we worked on the sound
for my last movie...
...in the post-production studio.
I've got quite a lot of memories
of this place.
I've experienced the evolution
and transformation of the studio.
Most of the time...
...I'd be shooting outside,
rather than in the studios...
...but we always finish up
coming to the studio
to complete certain steps
in the film.
"The Excitement
of the Do-Re-Mi-Fa Girl"
was commissioned by Nikkatsu.
It belonged to the genre...
...of the porn novel.
I was delighted.
I told myself
...that I was going to
get to make...
one of the top films
in the system,
even believing that it would be
like nothing done before.
What it might lead to!
And perhaps I'd be gaining
experience of the system...
...while working as a creator.
I felt real joy...
...when we started
making this film...
But then, as you're aware...
Nikkatsu refused
to accept my film.
My wishes...
...had not been granted.
When I made...
"The Excitement
of the Do-Re-Mi-Fa Girl"...
...I realized that
my way of working...
...was not compatible...
...with the system in the studio.
I just can't believe it!
Who is it?
Isn't... Mr Yoshioka... here?
No.
If I wait for him,
will he come?
Who are you talking about?
About Mr Yoshioka.
Who's that?
What's...
Where does the seminar
of Mr Hirayama take place?
He's the professor... of psychology.
All these displayed here
are the hand-casts...
...of the Nikkatsu studio's
top film stars.
Hideki Takahashi, the lead star in...
Seijun Suzuki's "Elegy of Violence".
and then there's Tetsuya Watari,
in Suzuki's "The Vagabond of Tokyo".
And there's also...
...the actors in the porno films...
...like Hiroko Isayama.
What strikes me as odd,
is to see Ren Osugi, right down here
at the bottom...
...considering that he's
a very popular actor.
he starred in a lot of my films...
and even in the series,
"Hey, Brother, Suit Yourself."
I knew him before
we started working together...
...and he was in my last film.
Odd that Ren Osugi, who rose so far
in the "studio system"...
...finds himself at the end
of the bottom row.
I think that's very symbolic...
...of what the studio
has become today.
I'd completely forgotten
about this idea.
I can't believe it's in
one of my films.
It's good!
The common point's
the woman, isn't it?
It's not the leg, though, is it?
Is there something sexy about it?
When these images
are laid out like this...
I'm surprised to have
incorporated these ideas...
...which were never actually...
Never really premeditated.
I don't believe at all...
...that I have a special gift...
...for filming women
in an erotic way.
I'm actually rather clumsy.
I really don't understand
a thing about it.
I know there are directors
who are really good at it.
But I'm really awkward
filming women.
I just don't manage to find
any good ideas.
When I made that second movie
Nikkatsu style...
...I was told that it
couldn’t be released...
...because it wasn't at all erotic.
It caused quite a scandal.
I really appreciated
that I didn't have that talent...
...after making those two films.
Can I keep these photos?
I can be proud of knowing
how to do these sorts of films.
I'm really surprised.
I joined the faculty of sociology
somewhat by chance,...
It was not due to any particular
desire on my part
The thing was that they didn't have
a special department devoted to cinema.
But there was a cinema option.
I was engaged to put together...
...a supplementary course.
This was the casual basis
on which I signed up.
There would have been round about
a hundred students...
at the beginning of the year...
...but many soon dropped out.
There were only ten left...
and I was one of those.
This was the point in time...
when we started to realise...
...that we were the only ones
who understood Hasumii.
But he wasn't yet recognised
as he is today.
Almost no one understood.
It was only the select few,
the aficionados...
...who understood.
You got the impression
that we alone were able...
...to spread his words.
It really was a cult.
To see all types of films...
then talk about the films
amongst friends...
and then to make films...
To see, to discuss, to make...
It's through these three actions...
that we pass on Mr Hasumi's knowledge.
That's how we started...
to create a new cinema, bit by bit.
And then I was pushed
more and more...
by the impulse to film Hasumi.
Let me show you...
Here's the stairway...
Like this...
...the main character
climbs the stairs...
Mr Hasumi comes down
and gives an order.
I shot the scene like this.
When I was at high school...
I only went to see American films...
...and I loved them.
Thanks to him,
after I entered university...
...I started seeing different films...
...that were not simply
for entertainment.
One of the directors...
...who impressed me at the time...
...was Theodoros Angelopoulos.
but most of all, it was Godard.
Godard was already
very well known...
...and I'd already seen some of
his films when I was in high school.
But I believe that it was
thanks to Hasumi...
...that I fully understood
the importance...
...of the part he played
in the history of cinema.
So I started seeing his films...
...over again.
I didn't know what Paris was like.
In one of his films...
...people carrying flags
appear all of a sudden.
In "One plus One"...
...there's Anne Wiazemsky
in a white dress...
...carrying a sub-machine gun.
I can't describe the scene
more precisely than that.
He doesn't film...
...anything that's
out of the ordinary...
But through costume, set-design
and small details...
...like that flag-raising...
There was one instance where for me,
as a Japanese...
...the impression was created,
that a warehouse...
...in a seedy quarter of Paris...
...was transformed into the Holy Land
in Godard's film.
I was totally amazed...
...by the aesthetic sense
and imagination shown in his film.
I had no doubt that I aspired
to become like Godard.
Teraoka!
Pleasant dreams!
Pleasant dreams!
Spread all around you...
...the flowers of the
pretty field flourish.
Sleep soundly right now...
You can sleep without fear...
Until you wake again
in the morning.
Pleasant dreams!
Pleasant dreams!
The eight-millimetre film club
that we had...
...was not officially recognized
by the university.
You could say that it was considered
a somewhat secondary association.
Officially-recognised clubs
were allocated specific rooms...
...next to the attractive brick building
where we were earlier.
We were given this room...
...which we shared
with other clubs.
I remember it with affection.
It was known as "the common room".
At the time,
there were a lot of posters...
...and even graffiti.
The tables and chairs were much dirtier
and in greater disarray than these here.
The student protest movement...
...had already been over
for quite a while.
A bit later, from the 80s...
...the so-called speculative
bubble economy emerged in Japan.
It's known as the Otaku generation...
My generation is older
than the Otaku generation...
...and more recent than
the Zenkyoto generation.
My generation is an
in-between generation.
It was the end of the 1970s...
...and it was called
the Shiraké generation.
It was a time of nothing,
of emptiness.
Nothing affected us...
...neither pleasure nor pain.
I've always kept a relationship
with the friends I met here.
For example, it's here
that I met Shuji Asano...
...who's worked in the field
of visual effects.
He's worked on
all my films since "Pulse".
It's here also that
I met my wife...
who's over there.
We've made films together,
up until today.
I think of this place
as a starting point.
Words of love
written together in the sand
Unfeelingly, they're washed out
by a wave
The aching of my heart as well
One day...
I'll throw it away
on a distant shore
Saying you were too happy,
softly you cried
But you're not here any more.
YOU = ME
I'm totally Japanese...
but both my parents...
...happen to be Christians...
...and because of that it's probable
that Christian sensibility...
...could be influencing me...
...in some form or another.
I've never sought to pose the question
of the existence... of God...
...in the Western sense of the word.
I never wonder if I affirm
or if I deny the existence of God...
or even how I might portray God.
The presence of God
is very remote from me.
If you want to evoke
ancient Japanese culture in a film...
...the sort of culture...
...that existed
one or two hundred years ago...
...the ghost, which is a symbol
of an ancient past or disappearance...
...is one of the means
that is made use of.
If people have that in mind...
...and they're shooting in Kyoto, say,
in a Shinto temple...
...or in a Buddhist temple,
or a cemetery...
...or even in a traditional house...
...that can always help evoke
traditional Japanese culture.
That culture is very present
in Tokyo...
...but I hate filming it.
Conversely, I like to film
disused rundown buildings.
I have no desire to film
anything that makes you think
of that traditional
Japanese culture.
In that case, why is it that
I have ghosts in my films?
Even I can't answer that.
It's certainly hard
to understand.
Well, we do have a lot of them!
I ask myself what it is!
What will come out?
The hand...
It's good when you see an image
like this, straight out of the film!
Of course, I frequently film hands...
...but that doesn't mean to say
that I consider myself...
...as a film-maker
who specialises in hands...
...like Bresson, for example,
who frequently films hands.
When I film someone
who is picking something up...
...or who is touching something...
...with their hand in close-up...
...their hand becomes part
of the frame, naturally.
That sort of thing
is something...
...which can be difficult
to describe in words.
A kind of presence.
Highlighting the hand...
...is a way of expressing a presence.
The hand has an individuality...
...though it's less than
that of the face...
You can say that
it's a little more anonymous.
Whose hand is it?
It's not important...
It's just a hand.
If we film the face...
...the identification is stronger.
We erase the personality
of the character...
...but we mark their presence
all the same.
The character exists...
...but as we're not
seeing their face...
...we don't know what
they're thinking or feeling.
It remains a mystery.
A typical ghost...
...is something you see...
but which does not exist.
However, we can show a proof
of its existence existence.
When the ghost knocks on the window,
a trace remains.
I often think...
..and have thought for a long time,
that ghosts exist.
I don't know if they exist...
...but if they do exist, I wonder
if it's possible to touch them.
It was in "Pulse" that
I mostly treated this.
When the main character
touches the ghost saying...
"You don't really exist"...
...he manages to touch her shoulder...
...and that gives him quite a shock.
I've noticed that if we take away
the visual depth of a character...
...by creating a sort of flatness...
...it heightens the feeling
of incomprehensibility...
...compared to other characters
who have visual depth.
And if this character stands
in an empty space...
...we understand where he is...
...thanks to the distance that
separates him from the background...
...shown by playing with focus.
On the other hand, if it's
standing up against a wall...
...if there's no distance
between it and the wall...
...it's difficult to clarify...
...and you're led to feel
it's on the same plane as the wall.
If there's a patch
in the shape of a man...
...we don't know if it IS a man.
"What is that shape there?"
What was there at this place?
"How come it's there?"
and so on.
I certainly use that sort of thing
as one of the means...
...of evoking something...
...that no longer exists.
And seeing that image on the wall,
I think that many Japanese...
...would right away think
of Hiroshima and Nagasaki...
...because we're perhaps
too directly involved.
But of course we're well aware
that we're now in the present age.
But it's nice to know that foreigners
have been similarly sensitive to it.
Personally...
...I have to admit that
I didn't think of it that way.
The stain is an exaggerated
representation.
Like imagining someone from the
impression they leave in a chair.
I think that cinema has
on many occasions sought...
...to illustrate the absence
of someone or something.
Film makers have worked
very hard on this question.
Wishing for eternal beauty...
...the woman dived into the swamp
and became a mummy.
She woke up 100 years later,
and placed a curse on me.
The terrible curse
of eternal love.
Whenever I come over to Paris...
...go to the art museums...
...even though I don't know
very much about painting.
When I see those French paintings
of the 19th century...
...the ones that were done a little
before the era of impressionism...
...the ones in which there remains
a certain degree of realism...
It's then that I become aware...
...of what cinema
is striving to achieve.
Over 100 years have passed
since then...
...and what we do now.
With our advanced
digital techniques...
..we can actually recreate images
in the style of 19th century painting.
I really think cinema
is a 19th century art.
That's what I tell myself when I see
the latest Hollywood movies.
The image reaches
the height of beauty...
...found in the art of the 19th century.
It's as though no progress
has been made since then.
I feel a certain sadness
in that regard.
Everyone's aware of the fact...
...that I wasn't the one
who started...
...with this representation
of women wearing long hair.
It was already to be found...
...in those old Japanese ghost films
known as "Kaidan".
It didn't only apply to films...
...but was also used in Kabuki.
It's a typical old way
of representing ghosts.
I think it's now
universally familiar...
...thanks to "Ring".
That long straight hair...
....falls because she's Japanese...
...so as to cover her face.
It's a representation
of ghosts...
...which has existed
since the Edo era.
It's enough just
to have the wind...
...make the actress's hair dance.
It's an effect that's easy to achieve,
and one that I've often used.
But we've reached the point where it's
been overused in Japanese horror films.
You could say that it's
reached saturation point.
Having long black hair is important
for Japanese women...
...and that's not just about something
that has anything to do with ghosts.
It's said that when
a woman's hair is cut...
...the sadness that causes
and the resentment that causes...
...stays in the hair that's been cut.
It's a curse.
And it's also a symbol...
...of femininity itself.
On many occasions I've filmed...
...scenes set in a bus..
As you were saying...
...in that way I can show
an isolated character...
...who's getting away from reality...
...to reach a world
even more alien to him.
But looking at this scene today...
...which is really
a bit too odd...
I can admit that I overdid it.
I'm not proud of it.
Maybe if there had been the addition
of someone else in the scene.
In hindsight I can
now tell myself...
...that the scene should have
had more real elements.
When we cut to
a close-up of something...
...that we've already shown
from a distance...
...we're making a repetition.
It's a way of emphasising
the important things...
...out of the visual information
that we've already given the viewer.
It's as if we're saying...
"You know very well
what's most important..."
And then, at the same time...
...there is some else not revealed
out of the assemblage of things seen.
Maybe a few seconds
have elapsed between the two views.
And then we don't know what
there is out of frame.
As I don't show
what happens off-screen...
...the viewer believes in a continuity.
And yet there's this gap
a few seconds...
...which gives the impression
of something suspicious.
I love that eerie feeling
from a concealment.
We're revealing, at the same time,
that we're hiding something.
"You shouldn't put too much
trust in the cinema..."
"You never know
what's going to happen."
This is what I'm suggesting with
the lead-up sequence here.
It's certainly true that I've shot
a lot of scenes involving falling.
It's not that I have any obsession
with falling, in my own life. I don't.
But in cinema...
...when you want
to stage an accident...
...or if those sorts of events
are important to the story...
...I often use a falling body.
As in reality, it can be
traumatic to watch.
I imagine these scenes
in spite of myself.
I really don't know why.
The thing is, that it's quite difficult
to film a fall...
...but at the same time,
it's easier to imagine.
We see things falling, but it can
be difficulty to watch...
...either in film...
...or in the real world.
When something moves backwards
or forwards horizontally...
...the movement
is pleasant to follow.
There are many ways
that it can be filmed...
As a means of expression,
it's rich.
On the other hand,
there are very few ways...
...to film a vertical movement.
Things go through the frame
all of a sudden.
We can film something
that's actually falling...
...by following it down
with the camera...
...however... it's difficult...
...to capture the real
sensation of falling...
It's very difficult...
And that's precisely
what I want to do.
The woman in the red dress
is an actress...
...who is also a stunt-woman.
She really bungee-jumped
from up there...
...and she's let herself fall
almost to the ground.
I think we shot it times.
Each time, she went down
a little bit further...
And the last time to within 2-3 metres,
of the ground.
We edited the shots together,
and it finished up working well.
The essential thing
that made it really effective...
...is the fact that she
really did fall from the top...
...even if it was a bungee jump.
The second actress
actually saw someone falling.
It's something quite scary,
being witness to such a jump.
Even those of us who were filming,
had to lower our eyes.
The actress therefore really did
avert her gaze.
And we were able to film her
with a second camera...
...from the opposite direction...
...while she was still reacting
genuinely to that scary sight.
...of the bungee-jump.
She managed to show...
just the right reaction.
It was far more effective
than we ever anticipated..
In every film I do,
I challenge myself...
...to shoot at least one shot...
...incorporating something
very difficult to represent.
This is the case...
...whenever there's a situation
where someone is falling...
...and we want to show it,
as if it were really happening.
If there are no challenging scenes...
...the whole point
of making a film...
...doesn't make sense
to me anymore.
I'm very taken with the idea,
of coming up with a particular shot...
...that possibly no film-maker
has ever done before.
Shooting "The Secret of the Black Room"
When I was writing the script...
...I wasn't attentive enough.
My scenery team made
several suggestions...
and when I saw the result,
I was surprised.
I told them I still wanted
it how I had it.
I've never been able to really
work out the exact reason why...
...I come to show in my films,
bodies that are attached to something.
...or mechanical devices...
...that constrain bodies.
I believe I may be influenced
by a childhood memory.
A European horror film
from the early 1960s...
...that I saw when I was about 10
In that film, there were
things like that...
...instruments for torturing women.
It was a trend at the time.
I think that it's...
...under the influence of these films...
...that I show these terrible devices...
...that are affixed to the human body.
Apart from that, I can't really see
any other reason.
Roger Corman, in one of his early films,
"The Chamber of Tortures"...
...had this enormous swinging device.
It was a sort of huge pendulum,
about 10 metres across...
...used for tying and cutting up men.
These types of machines
are only made for movies.
Personally...
...I don't manufacture any
special machines like that.
I don't keep any stored away.
I don't have the taste for them.
These are the things
that I imagine for the cinema...
I had finally decided
to finish this film...
...with the scene of the boy
of the family, playing the piano.
I intended to show
this boy playing...
...the whole of
Debussy's "Clair de lune".
One of the things
that I wanted...
...was to be able to show
the spectators...
...that is to say, the family members
and their acquaintances...
...to be on the same level
as the pianist.
Normally such a room
would be sloping.
We look from above, or we raise
our eyes towards the performer.
But I didn't want that the spectators
would look at the pianist like that.
I wanted that the piano,
as well as the spectator...
...would be on the same level
as the camera.
And there was something else
I wanted...
...which was quite difficult
to make happen.
That was to see daylight break through
behind the pianist.
There needed to be windows.
It was very difficult
to find the right setting...
and while I found myself
not knowing what to do...
...I thought of the lobby
at the university where I teach
As there is a footpath
on the outside...
...we couldn't manufacture
a huge device...
...but we did it,
as far as possible.
We built a whole system
intended to conceal the windows.
It enabled us to light up
as if it were the outside.
We've installed outdoor lighting
everywhere...
...just like in a studio.
It was an extraordinary achievement.
Thanks to that, we had no more
worries about light changes...
...and from then on,
we were able to create...
...the effects of rays of sunlight,
streaming through the windows.
The boy did a huge amount of
practice on the piano.
He could play a bit
to start with...
...and he practiced
and rehearsed well enough...
...to be able to play the piece through,
on the day of the shoot.
On the set,
we heard the piece...
...already recorded...
...and he fingered the keyboard,
in time with the music.
The effect was as if
he was really playing.
We had thus... succeeded in creating...
...the sound sensation as if
someone was playing the music live.
This is the scenario of "Creepy".
At first, there's only dialogue.
As we don't know yet,
what will happen on set...
...we can't write in everything.
This is the last scene.
This is just a rough sketch...
The car is parked here...
..and there's a table here,
and the camera is there.
The camera, the table, the car.
It shows where Nishino's moves are.
He's played by Teruyuki Kagawa.
I wrote 1, indicating dialogue 1.
Then dialogue 2.
Then it follows for
the other characters.
So there you see it...
It's really not meant
to be shown to anyone.
This version, with
my notes and diagrams...
I never show it
to anyone at all.
All the sketches, the planning,
I've drawn myself...
...at a cafe, for example.
And when I'm looking at it
on the set...
...if the assistant director
come see me...
...I conceal it from him, saying...
"This is just for me,
you can't see it."
Then I look at it in secret.
Akiko Ahizawa
Chief camerawoman
You're too much baggage.
Sorry, my little Max.
Mr Takakura?
Come on!
Take this.... and kill him.
You've already handled guns,
haven't you?
You should shoot exactly here...
...at the base of the neck.
A single shot should suffice.
It will make a terrible noise.
What's wrong?
Your end is here.
Look at you now!
You stupid arsehole!
Enough...
He's dead.
Nobody has the experience
of being shot dead...
But Kagawa is an actor
who plays it with great finesse.
I hadn't given him
any particular direction.
These days on television,
we no longer see...
...those old documentaries
where you actually saw...
...real people,
actually getting shot.
It's not at all the same as
you see in Hollywood movies.
I think the first time...
...that a filmmaker showed death
like this in a fictional setting...
...was in "Schindler's List".
I think I said to Kagawa...
...as it was... in Schindler...
...to make the death fall
quick and undramatised.
I didn't tell him anything.
Neither is there anything
written in the script.
It's just indicated that
he holds her in his arms.
There's not even... "shout".
I was actually wondering
how to handle it...
...when he was holding her
in his arms.
And on that day, I must admit...
...my inspiration
was very banal.
I asked her...
...if it was possible
for her to cry...
...even though that
was not in the script.
She said "Sure, will I cry
in his arms...
...or turned towards the sky?"
I replied...
"Could we try the sky?""
"OK, I'll try."
So we repeated it once
with Nishijima.
It wasn't filmed...
...but that was already done.
It surprised everyone.
There are some scenarios
where the feelings are described...
...in the actual stage directions.
I'll try to play them according to that,
the first time.
If there are no directions...
...then I follow my own instincts.
I don't think, myself...
...that people are immediately
conscious of their feelings...
...in real-life situations.
Maybe something is happening...
...but I don't believe it's going on
in your head.
So I do the same thing...
When you're acting as well?
Sure.
It's impossible
to read the script...
...without imagining the feelings
that are involved.
I believe that I think
about it subconsciously...
...but not thinking about it
on a deep level.
I can go into it more deeply
as soon as I start acting.
I believe that I often
work like that.
I haven't read many scripts
by other people.
I think that in the script
that I gave you...
...the situations were easy
to understand.
But I hardly wrote anything...
...regarding the feelings
of the characters...
...nor the stage directions.
There's just dialogue
and nothing else.
It was a difficult role,
wasn't it?
No, it was really interesting.
When you write the dialogue...
...how do you conceive
the feelings?
I don't think about that,
all that much...
But there are times...
...when I'm feeling very sentimental.
...and I write...
...with the emotions I'm feeling.
If I find those sentiments
have become too obvious...
...I try to cut them back.
"Damn it, I put an exclamation mark!"
"I've put in too many
dramatic pauses!"
I try not to have feelings...
...described.
Why's that?
That's a good question.
There are dialogues
that I want spoken...
But what about the sentiments?
What are the sentiments
that accompany them?
Even if they come at the moment
when I'm writing the screenplay...
...they may not be
the right ones.
There are always
other possibilities...
...and I also want
to rely on the actors.
If I define the feelings...
...the actor is going to
follow my instructions.
But I can't rely on what I feel...
...as being right.
There'll be many possibilities...
...and that is what...
...I entrust to the actors.
If I can talk to you...
...quite freely...
There is one thing...
...that I've been wanting
to describe...
...I think now, for several years...
And that is... war.
I don't know specifically,
in what era...
...or for that matter, what war.
And that's the weakness of my idea.
It could be the Pacific War...
...with Japan as a participant...
...or a fictional war
to come...
...or the wars that are
happening today...
...with Japanese Self Defense forces...
...in an Islamic country...
...or even a war that had
nothing do with any of that.
I still haven't made up my mind.
But I'd really love
to portray war.
You may think that Ozu,
who I quoted earlier...
...only made movies that
had nothing to do with war.
But if I'm asked to say
what film of his that I like best...
..I reply without hesitation...
"A Hen in the Wind".
It's a film from 1949...
...which he made
just before "Late Spring".
He didn't directly show
the war in this film...
...but it's a powerful movie
which describes...
...how deeply scarred our country
was after the war experience.
Ozu had experienced it all himself.
He dealt with the war in his own way,
and made a masterpiece.
I think that's a good example.
All the same, it is not
another concrete project...
...which would be moving forward.
It's possible that
it's just a dream.
Subtitles by FatPlank for KG
Those people that are there....
I feel I want to film them
just as they are...
...by placing the main character
among them, in a casual way.
The atmosphere here...
...is an amalgamation of diverse eras
and social classes.
It's very interesting.
All those cables there...
they're quite beautiful.
After being in Paris for 6 months,
I'd completely forgotten about cables.
Back home in Tokyo,
they're everywhere you look...
running backwards and forwards.
There was a time
when I hated them.
But once I came to realise that
there was no getting way from them...
...not only in Tokyo,
but in any city in Japan...
...I decided I should
start filming them...
It's the contrast that's beautiful.
Thus reminds me
so much of Tokyo.
You've met all these people,
haven't you?
I don't remember.
Well...
...what about this one?
I don't know him.
It's you yourself.
We look alike.
So now we're sure of one thing.
That's you. Agreed?
I don't know this man.
Could it be me?
Who are you?
Kiyoshi Kurosawa
On the back of the images
I shot my first
commercial movie here...
...in the Nikkatsu studio.
And just two weeks ago...
...we worked on the sound
for my last movie...
...in the post-production studio.
I've got quite a lot of memories
of this place.
I've experienced the evolution
and transformation of the studio.
Most of the time...
...I'd be shooting outside,
rather than in the studios...
...but we always finish up
coming to the studio
to complete certain steps
in the film.
"The Excitement
of the Do-Re-Mi-Fa Girl"
was commissioned by Nikkatsu.
It belonged to the genre...
...of the porn novel.
I was delighted.
I told myself
...that I was going to
get to make...
one of the top films
in the system,
even believing that it would be
like nothing done before.
What it might lead to!
And perhaps I'd be gaining
experience of the system...
...while working as a creator.
I felt real joy...
...when we started
making this film...
But then, as you're aware...
Nikkatsu refused
to accept my film.
My wishes...
...had not been granted.
When I made...
"The Excitement
of the Do-Re-Mi-Fa Girl"...
...I realized that
my way of working...
...was not compatible...
...with the system in the studio.
I just can't believe it!
Who is it?
Isn't... Mr Yoshioka... here?
No.
If I wait for him,
will he come?
Who are you talking about?
About Mr Yoshioka.
Who's that?
What's...
Where does the seminar
of Mr Hirayama take place?
He's the professor... of psychology.
All these displayed here
are the hand-casts...
...of the Nikkatsu studio's
top film stars.
Hideki Takahashi, the lead star in...
Seijun Suzuki's "Elegy of Violence".
and then there's Tetsuya Watari,
in Suzuki's "The Vagabond of Tokyo".
And there's also...
...the actors in the porno films...
...like Hiroko Isayama.
What strikes me as odd,
is to see Ren Osugi, right down here
at the bottom...
...considering that he's
a very popular actor.
he starred in a lot of my films...
and even in the series,
"Hey, Brother, Suit Yourself."
I knew him before
we started working together...
...and he was in my last film.
Odd that Ren Osugi, who rose so far
in the "studio system"...
...finds himself at the end
of the bottom row.
I think that's very symbolic...
...of what the studio
has become today.
I'd completely forgotten
about this idea.
I can't believe it's in
one of my films.
It's good!
The common point's
the woman, isn't it?
It's not the leg, though, is it?
Is there something sexy about it?
When these images
are laid out like this...
I'm surprised to have
incorporated these ideas...
...which were never actually...
Never really premeditated.
I don't believe at all...
...that I have a special gift...
...for filming women
in an erotic way.
I'm actually rather clumsy.
I really don't understand
a thing about it.
I know there are directors
who are really good at it.
But I'm really awkward
filming women.
I just don't manage to find
any good ideas.
When I made that second movie
Nikkatsu style...
...I was told that it
couldn’t be released...
...because it wasn't at all erotic.
It caused quite a scandal.
I really appreciated
that I didn't have that talent...
...after making those two films.
Can I keep these photos?
I can be proud of knowing
how to do these sorts of films.
I'm really surprised.
I joined the faculty of sociology
somewhat by chance,...
It was not due to any particular
desire on my part
The thing was that they didn't have
a special department devoted to cinema.
But there was a cinema option.
I was engaged to put together...
...a supplementary course.
This was the casual basis
on which I signed up.
There would have been round about
a hundred students...
at the beginning of the year...
...but many soon dropped out.
There were only ten left...
and I was one of those.
This was the point in time...
when we started to realise...
...that we were the only ones
who understood Hasumii.
But he wasn't yet recognised
as he is today.
Almost no one understood.
It was only the select few,
the aficionados...
...who understood.
You got the impression
that we alone were able...
...to spread his words.
It really was a cult.
To see all types of films...
then talk about the films
amongst friends...
and then to make films...
To see, to discuss, to make...
It's through these three actions...
that we pass on Mr Hasumi's knowledge.
That's how we started...
to create a new cinema, bit by bit.
And then I was pushed
more and more...
by the impulse to film Hasumi.
Let me show you...
Here's the stairway...
Like this...
...the main character
climbs the stairs...
Mr Hasumi comes down
and gives an order.
I shot the scene like this.
When I was at high school...
I only went to see American films...
...and I loved them.
Thanks to him,
after I entered university...
...I started seeing different films...
...that were not simply
for entertainment.
One of the directors...
...who impressed me at the time...
...was Theodoros Angelopoulos.
but most of all, it was Godard.
Godard was already
very well known...
...and I'd already seen some of
his films when I was in high school.
But I believe that it was
thanks to Hasumi...
...that I fully understood
the importance...
...of the part he played
in the history of cinema.
So I started seeing his films...
...over again.
I didn't know what Paris was like.
In one of his films...
...people carrying flags
appear all of a sudden.
In "One plus One"...
...there's Anne Wiazemsky
in a white dress...
...carrying a sub-machine gun.
I can't describe the scene
more precisely than that.
He doesn't film...
...anything that's
out of the ordinary...
But through costume, set-design
and small details...
...like that flag-raising...
There was one instance where for me,
as a Japanese...
...the impression was created,
that a warehouse...
...in a seedy quarter of Paris...
...was transformed into the Holy Land
in Godard's film.
I was totally amazed...
...by the aesthetic sense
and imagination shown in his film.
I had no doubt that I aspired
to become like Godard.
Teraoka!
Pleasant dreams!
Pleasant dreams!
Spread all around you...
...the flowers of the
pretty field flourish.
Sleep soundly right now...
You can sleep without fear...
Until you wake again
in the morning.
Pleasant dreams!
Pleasant dreams!
The eight-millimetre film club
that we had...
...was not officially recognized
by the university.
You could say that it was considered
a somewhat secondary association.
Officially-recognised clubs
were allocated specific rooms...
...next to the attractive brick building
where we were earlier.
We were given this room...
...which we shared
with other clubs.
I remember it with affection.
It was known as "the common room".
At the time,
there were a lot of posters...
...and even graffiti.
The tables and chairs were much dirtier
and in greater disarray than these here.
The student protest movement...
...had already been over
for quite a while.
A bit later, from the 80s...
...the so-called speculative
bubble economy emerged in Japan.
It's known as the Otaku generation...
My generation is older
than the Otaku generation...
...and more recent than
the Zenkyoto generation.
My generation is an
in-between generation.
It was the end of the 1970s...
...and it was called
the Shiraké generation.
It was a time of nothing,
of emptiness.
Nothing affected us...
...neither pleasure nor pain.
I've always kept a relationship
with the friends I met here.
For example, it's here
that I met Shuji Asano...
...who's worked in the field
of visual effects.
He's worked on
all my films since "Pulse".
It's here also that
I met my wife...
who's over there.
We've made films together,
up until today.
I think of this place
as a starting point.
Words of love
written together in the sand
Unfeelingly, they're washed out
by a wave
The aching of my heart as well
One day...
I'll throw it away
on a distant shore
Saying you were too happy,
softly you cried
But you're not here any more.
YOU = ME
I'm totally Japanese...
but both my parents...
...happen to be Christians...
...and because of that it's probable
that Christian sensibility...
...could be influencing me...
...in some form or another.
I've never sought to pose the question
of the existence... of God...
...in the Western sense of the word.
I never wonder if I affirm
or if I deny the existence of God...
or even how I might portray God.
The presence of God
is very remote from me.
If you want to evoke
ancient Japanese culture in a film...
...the sort of culture...
...that existed
one or two hundred years ago...
...the ghost, which is a symbol
of an ancient past or disappearance...
...is one of the means
that is made use of.
If people have that in mind...
...and they're shooting in Kyoto, say,
in a Shinto temple...
...or in a Buddhist temple,
or a cemetery...
...or even in a traditional house...
...that can always help evoke
traditional Japanese culture.
That culture is very present
in Tokyo...
...but I hate filming it.
Conversely, I like to film
disused rundown buildings.
I have no desire to film
anything that makes you think
of that traditional
Japanese culture.
In that case, why is it that
I have ghosts in my films?
Even I can't answer that.
It's certainly hard
to understand.
Well, we do have a lot of them!
I ask myself what it is!
What will come out?
The hand...
It's good when you see an image
like this, straight out of the film!
Of course, I frequently film hands...
...but that doesn't mean to say
that I consider myself...
...as a film-maker
who specialises in hands...
...like Bresson, for example,
who frequently films hands.
When I film someone
who is picking something up...
...or who is touching something...
...with their hand in close-up...
...their hand becomes part
of the frame, naturally.
That sort of thing
is something...
...which can be difficult
to describe in words.
A kind of presence.
Highlighting the hand...
...is a way of expressing a presence.
The hand has an individuality...
...though it's less than
that of the face...
You can say that
it's a little more anonymous.
Whose hand is it?
It's not important...
It's just a hand.
If we film the face...
...the identification is stronger.
We erase the personality
of the character...
...but we mark their presence
all the same.
The character exists...
...but as we're not
seeing their face...
...we don't know what
they're thinking or feeling.
It remains a mystery.
A typical ghost...
...is something you see...
but which does not exist.
However, we can show a proof
of its existence existence.
When the ghost knocks on the window,
a trace remains.
I often think...
..and have thought for a long time,
that ghosts exist.
I don't know if they exist...
...but if they do exist, I wonder
if it's possible to touch them.
It was in "Pulse" that
I mostly treated this.
When the main character
touches the ghost saying...
"You don't really exist"...
...he manages to touch her shoulder...
...and that gives him quite a shock.
I've noticed that if we take away
the visual depth of a character...
...by creating a sort of flatness...
...it heightens the feeling
of incomprehensibility...
...compared to other characters
who have visual depth.
And if this character stands
in an empty space...
...we understand where he is...
...thanks to the distance that
separates him from the background...
...shown by playing with focus.
On the other hand, if it's
standing up against a wall...
...if there's no distance
between it and the wall...
...it's difficult to clarify...
...and you're led to feel
it's on the same plane as the wall.
If there's a patch
in the shape of a man...
...we don't know if it IS a man.
"What is that shape there?"
What was there at this place?
"How come it's there?"
and so on.
I certainly use that sort of thing
as one of the means...
...of evoking something...
...that no longer exists.
And seeing that image on the wall,
I think that many Japanese...
...would right away think
of Hiroshima and Nagasaki...
...because we're perhaps
too directly involved.
But of course we're well aware
that we're now in the present age.
But it's nice to know that foreigners
have been similarly sensitive to it.
Personally...
...I have to admit that
I didn't think of it that way.
The stain is an exaggerated
representation.
Like imagining someone from the
impression they leave in a chair.
I think that cinema has
on many occasions sought...
...to illustrate the absence
of someone or something.
Film makers have worked
very hard on this question.
Wishing for eternal beauty...
...the woman dived into the swamp
and became a mummy.
She woke up 100 years later,
and placed a curse on me.
The terrible curse
of eternal love.
Whenever I come over to Paris...
...go to the art museums...
...even though I don't know
very much about painting.
When I see those French paintings
of the 19th century...
...the ones that were done a little
before the era of impressionism...
...the ones in which there remains
a certain degree of realism...
It's then that I become aware...
...of what cinema
is striving to achieve.
Over 100 years have passed
since then...
...and what we do now.
With our advanced
digital techniques...
..we can actually recreate images
in the style of 19th century painting.
I really think cinema
is a 19th century art.
That's what I tell myself when I see
the latest Hollywood movies.
The image reaches
the height of beauty...
...found in the art of the 19th century.
It's as though no progress
has been made since then.
I feel a certain sadness
in that regard.
Everyone's aware of the fact...
...that I wasn't the one
who started...
...with this representation
of women wearing long hair.
It was already to be found...
...in those old Japanese ghost films
known as "Kaidan".
It didn't only apply to films...
...but was also used in Kabuki.
It's a typical old way
of representing ghosts.
I think it's now
universally familiar...
...thanks to "Ring".
That long straight hair...
....falls because she's Japanese...
...so as to cover her face.
It's a representation
of ghosts...
...which has existed
since the Edo era.
It's enough just
to have the wind...
...make the actress's hair dance.
It's an effect that's easy to achieve,
and one that I've often used.
But we've reached the point where it's
been overused in Japanese horror films.
You could say that it's
reached saturation point.
Having long black hair is important
for Japanese women...
...and that's not just about something
that has anything to do with ghosts.
It's said that when
a woman's hair is cut...
...the sadness that causes
and the resentment that causes...
...stays in the hair that's been cut.
It's a curse.
And it's also a symbol...
...of femininity itself.
On many occasions I've filmed...
...scenes set in a bus..
As you were saying...
...in that way I can show
an isolated character...
...who's getting away from reality...
...to reach a world
even more alien to him.
But looking at this scene today...
...which is really
a bit too odd...
I can admit that I overdid it.
I'm not proud of it.
Maybe if there had been the addition
of someone else in the scene.
In hindsight I can
now tell myself...
...that the scene should have
had more real elements.
When we cut to
a close-up of something...
...that we've already shown
from a distance...
...we're making a repetition.
It's a way of emphasising
the important things...
...out of the visual information
that we've already given the viewer.
It's as if we're saying...
"You know very well
what's most important..."
And then, at the same time...
...there is some else not revealed
out of the assemblage of things seen.
Maybe a few seconds
have elapsed between the two views.
And then we don't know what
there is out of frame.
As I don't show
what happens off-screen...
...the viewer believes in a continuity.
And yet there's this gap
a few seconds...
...which gives the impression
of something suspicious.
I love that eerie feeling
from a concealment.
We're revealing, at the same time,
that we're hiding something.
"You shouldn't put too much
trust in the cinema..."
"You never know
what's going to happen."
This is what I'm suggesting with
the lead-up sequence here.
It's certainly true that I've shot
a lot of scenes involving falling.
It's not that I have any obsession
with falling, in my own life. I don't.
But in cinema...
...when you want
to stage an accident...
...or if those sorts of events
are important to the story...
...I often use a falling body.
As in reality, it can be
traumatic to watch.
I imagine these scenes
in spite of myself.
I really don't know why.
The thing is, that it's quite difficult
to film a fall...
...but at the same time,
it's easier to imagine.
We see things falling, but it can
be difficulty to watch...
...either in film...
...or in the real world.
When something moves backwards
or forwards horizontally...
...the movement
is pleasant to follow.
There are many ways
that it can be filmed...
As a means of expression,
it's rich.
On the other hand,
there are very few ways...
...to film a vertical movement.
Things go through the frame
all of a sudden.
We can film something
that's actually falling...
...by following it down
with the camera...
...however... it's difficult...
...to capture the real
sensation of falling...
It's very difficult...
And that's precisely
what I want to do.
The woman in the red dress
is an actress...
...who is also a stunt-woman.
She really bungee-jumped
from up there...
...and she's let herself fall
almost to the ground.
I think we shot it times.
Each time, she went down
a little bit further...
And the last time to within 2-3 metres,
of the ground.
We edited the shots together,
and it finished up working well.
The essential thing
that made it really effective...
...is the fact that she
really did fall from the top...
...even if it was a bungee jump.
The second actress
actually saw someone falling.
It's something quite scary,
being witness to such a jump.
Even those of us who were filming,
had to lower our eyes.
The actress therefore really did
avert her gaze.
And we were able to film her
with a second camera...
...from the opposite direction...
...while she was still reacting
genuinely to that scary sight.
...of the bungee-jump.
She managed to show...
just the right reaction.
It was far more effective
than we ever anticipated..
In every film I do,
I challenge myself...
...to shoot at least one shot...
...incorporating something
very difficult to represent.
This is the case...
...whenever there's a situation
where someone is falling...
...and we want to show it,
as if it were really happening.
If there are no challenging scenes...
...the whole point
of making a film...
...doesn't make sense
to me anymore.
I'm very taken with the idea,
of coming up with a particular shot...
...that possibly no film-maker
has ever done before.
Shooting "The Secret of the Black Room"
When I was writing the script...
...I wasn't attentive enough.
My scenery team made
several suggestions...
and when I saw the result,
I was surprised.
I told them I still wanted
it how I had it.
I've never been able to really
work out the exact reason why...
...I come to show in my films,
bodies that are attached to something.
...or mechanical devices...
...that constrain bodies.
I believe I may be influenced
by a childhood memory.
A European horror film
from the early 1960s...
...that I saw when I was about 10
In that film, there were
things like that...
...instruments for torturing women.
It was a trend at the time.
I think that it's...
...under the influence of these films...
...that I show these terrible devices...
...that are affixed to the human body.
Apart from that, I can't really see
any other reason.
Roger Corman, in one of his early films,
"The Chamber of Tortures"...
...had this enormous swinging device.
It was a sort of huge pendulum,
about 10 metres across...
...used for tying and cutting up men.
These types of machines
are only made for movies.
Personally...
...I don't manufacture any
special machines like that.
I don't keep any stored away.
I don't have the taste for them.
These are the things
that I imagine for the cinema...
I had finally decided
to finish this film...
...with the scene of the boy
of the family, playing the piano.
I intended to show
this boy playing...
...the whole of
Debussy's "Clair de lune".
One of the things
that I wanted...
...was to be able to show
the spectators...
...that is to say, the family members
and their acquaintances...
...to be on the same level
as the pianist.
Normally such a room
would be sloping.
We look from above, or we raise
our eyes towards the performer.
But I didn't want that the spectators
would look at the pianist like that.
I wanted that the piano,
as well as the spectator...
...would be on the same level
as the camera.
And there was something else
I wanted...
...which was quite difficult
to make happen.
That was to see daylight break through
behind the pianist.
There needed to be windows.
It was very difficult
to find the right setting...
and while I found myself
not knowing what to do...
...I thought of the lobby
at the university where I teach
As there is a footpath
on the outside...
...we couldn't manufacture
a huge device...
...but we did it,
as far as possible.
We built a whole system
intended to conceal the windows.
It enabled us to light up
as if it were the outside.
We've installed outdoor lighting
everywhere...
...just like in a studio.
It was an extraordinary achievement.
Thanks to that, we had no more
worries about light changes...
...and from then on,
we were able to create...
...the effects of rays of sunlight,
streaming through the windows.
The boy did a huge amount of
practice on the piano.
He could play a bit
to start with...
...and he practiced
and rehearsed well enough...
...to be able to play the piece through,
on the day of the shoot.
On the set,
we heard the piece...
...already recorded...
...and he fingered the keyboard,
in time with the music.
The effect was as if
he was really playing.
We had thus... succeeded in creating...
...the sound sensation as if
someone was playing the music live.
This is the scenario of "Creepy".
At first, there's only dialogue.
As we don't know yet,
what will happen on set...
...we can't write in everything.
This is the last scene.
This is just a rough sketch...
The car is parked here...
..and there's a table here,
and the camera is there.
The camera, the table, the car.
It shows where Nishino's moves are.
He's played by Teruyuki Kagawa.
I wrote 1, indicating dialogue 1.
Then dialogue 2.
Then it follows for
the other characters.
So there you see it...
It's really not meant
to be shown to anyone.
This version, with
my notes and diagrams...
I never show it
to anyone at all.
All the sketches, the planning,
I've drawn myself...
...at a cafe, for example.
And when I'm looking at it
on the set...
...if the assistant director
come see me...
...I conceal it from him, saying...
"This is just for me,
you can't see it."
Then I look at it in secret.
Akiko Ahizawa
Chief camerawoman
You're too much baggage.
Sorry, my little Max.
Mr Takakura?
Come on!
Take this.... and kill him.
You've already handled guns,
haven't you?
You should shoot exactly here...
...at the base of the neck.
A single shot should suffice.
It will make a terrible noise.
What's wrong?
Your end is here.
Look at you now!
You stupid arsehole!
Enough...
He's dead.
Nobody has the experience
of being shot dead...
But Kagawa is an actor
who plays it with great finesse.
I hadn't given him
any particular direction.
These days on television,
we no longer see...
...those old documentaries
where you actually saw...
...real people,
actually getting shot.
It's not at all the same as
you see in Hollywood movies.
I think the first time...
...that a filmmaker showed death
like this in a fictional setting...
...was in "Schindler's List".
I think I said to Kagawa...
...as it was... in Schindler...
...to make the death fall
quick and undramatised.
I didn't tell him anything.
Neither is there anything
written in the script.
It's just indicated that
he holds her in his arms.
There's not even... "shout".
I was actually wondering
how to handle it...
...when he was holding her
in his arms.
And on that day, I must admit...
...my inspiration
was very banal.
I asked her...
...if it was possible
for her to cry...
...even though that
was not in the script.
She said "Sure, will I cry
in his arms...
...or turned towards the sky?"
I replied...
"Could we try the sky?""
"OK, I'll try."
So we repeated it once
with Nishijima.
It wasn't filmed...
...but that was already done.
It surprised everyone.
There are some scenarios
where the feelings are described...
...in the actual stage directions.
I'll try to play them according to that,
the first time.
If there are no directions...
...then I follow my own instincts.
I don't think, myself...
...that people are immediately
conscious of their feelings...
...in real-life situations.
Maybe something is happening...
...but I don't believe it's going on
in your head.
So I do the same thing...
When you're acting as well?
Sure.
It's impossible
to read the script...
...without imagining the feelings
that are involved.
I believe that I think
about it subconsciously...
...but not thinking about it
on a deep level.
I can go into it more deeply
as soon as I start acting.
I believe that I often
work like that.
I haven't read many scripts
by other people.
I think that in the script
that I gave you...
...the situations were easy
to understand.
But I hardly wrote anything...
...regarding the feelings
of the characters...
...nor the stage directions.
There's just dialogue
and nothing else.
It was a difficult role,
wasn't it?
No, it was really interesting.
When you write the dialogue...
...how do you conceive
the feelings?
I don't think about that,
all that much...
But there are times...
...when I'm feeling very sentimental.
...and I write...
...with the emotions I'm feeling.
If I find those sentiments
have become too obvious...
...I try to cut them back.
"Damn it, I put an exclamation mark!"
"I've put in too many
dramatic pauses!"
I try not to have feelings...
...described.
Why's that?
That's a good question.
There are dialogues
that I want spoken...
But what about the sentiments?
What are the sentiments
that accompany them?
Even if they come at the moment
when I'm writing the screenplay...
...they may not be
the right ones.
There are always
other possibilities...
...and I also want
to rely on the actors.
If I define the feelings...
...the actor is going to
follow my instructions.
But I can't rely on what I feel...
...as being right.
There'll be many possibilities...
...and that is what...
...I entrust to the actors.
If I can talk to you...
...quite freely...
There is one thing...
...that I've been wanting
to describe...
...I think now, for several years...
And that is... war.
I don't know specifically,
in what era...
...or for that matter, what war.
And that's the weakness of my idea.
It could be the Pacific War...
...with Japan as a participant...
...or a fictional war
to come...
...or the wars that are
happening today...
...with Japanese Self Defense forces...
...in an Islamic country...
...or even a war that had
nothing do with any of that.
I still haven't made up my mind.
But I'd really love
to portray war.
You may think that Ozu,
who I quoted earlier...
...only made movies that
had nothing to do with war.
But if I'm asked to say
what film of his that I like best...
..I reply without hesitation...
"A Hen in the Wind".
It's a film from 1949...
...which he made
just before "Late Spring".
He didn't directly show
the war in this film...
...but it's a powerful movie
which describes...
...how deeply scarred our country
was after the war experience.
Ozu had experienced it all himself.
He dealt with the war in his own way,
and made a masterpiece.
I think that's a good example.
All the same, it is not
another concrete project...
...which would be moving forward.
It's possible that
it's just a dream.
Subtitles by FatPlank for KG