Catfish: The TV Show (2012–…): Season 5, Episode 10 - Kayla & Courtney - full transcript
A woman receives a message from someone claiming to be channeling the spirit of her father, who committed suicide after murdering her mother.
- This is insane.
- Well, usually this is where
we try to prepare ourselves,
but I don'’t really know
what I can do to prepare you
for this one.
- Yeah.
- Logic would tell me
you can'’t talk to dead people.
- If Courtney is lying
about this,
this is gonna be so messed up.
- What just happened?
- This is insane.
- At this point,
I don'’t know what to believe.
- Are you telling the truth?
[dramatic music]
- I went for a little jog
this morning that turned
into a half marathon.
- This is weird.
When I said, "Let'’s roll,"
I didn'’t mean this.
- All right, we got one.
"I think someone
is using my family
to catfish me."
- Well, this sounds different.
- "Dear Nev and Max,
my name is Kayla,
"and I'’m 18 years old.
"My boyfriend and I have a son,
"and we live just down the road
from our families
"in Shepherdsville, Kentucky.
"Family is a huge part
of our lives,
"but my dad has not been around
since I was a child.
"Just over two years ago,
"a woman named Courtney
contacted me,
letting me know that my dad
really wants to be in my life."
- ♪ Leave a light on
"Over the last two years,
Courtney and I have become
close friends."
- ♪ Leave a light on
when you go ♪
"Although Courtney has been
giving me messages from my dad,
"I haven'’t seen him
since I was a kid,
"the reason being is that my dad
"passed away almost
14 years ago.
[ominous music]
Courtney claims she'’s been
channeling his spirit."
- Oh.
- Oh, boy,
- Okay.
- Wait, is Courtney,
like, a medium?
- Yeah, she'’s speaking
to her dad
from beyond the grave.
- Whoa.
"We'’ve talked over the phone,
"but we'’ve never video chatted.
"I'’ve tried to meet her
in person,
"but every time,
Courtney has an excuse.
"I want to believe
that Courtney is real,
but if she is truly
who she says she is,
then why won'’t she meet us?"
Hold on a second.
I do not take a firm position
on knowing all the truths
of the universe,
but logic would tell me
you can'’t talk to dead people.
- Is there another reason
she could be doing this?
Is Kayla sending Courtney money?
What'’s Courtney'’s angle?
- Let'’s get Kayla
and find out what is going on.
both: Hi.
- Hello.
- How are you?
- Hey, Kayla.
- Doing good.
Sorry, y'’all.
I'’m a little nervous.
- Well, the nervousness
will wear off.
We'’re pretty easy to be around.
- Okay, good.
- So we read your story,
and we'’re really fascinated.
Can you kind of tell us
the whole thing
from the beginning?
- In 1999, my father
had a mental breakdown,
and he ended up killing my mom.
♪
And a few years later,
after being in prison,
he had another mental breakdown
and took his own life.
- Wow.
- Yeah, that'’s really intense
and terrible.
- Do you remember any of it,
or you were too young, kind of?
- I remember my dad,
but with the situation
with my mom,
I don'’t really
remember a whole lot.
- Who did you end up
living with?
- I lived with my grandma,
my father'’s mother.
- Okay, so two years ago,
out of the blue,
you just get this email.
- Yeah.
- Can you explain
how that happened?
- Courtney sent me
a Facebook message
saying she talked to my dad.
She was like,
"You might not believe me,
"but if you could,
please message me back
"as soon as you can,
and we can talk
about everything."
And at first, I was in shock,
and I didn'’t know
what to think.
She knew things like
the brand of cigarettes
he smoked and how he liked
his cheeseburgers
with ketchup only.
And she knew how he liked
his bologna sandwiches
and what kind of ice cream
he liked.
Nobody on this earth
should really know some
of the certain things
that she knows.
She says she'’s a medium,
and I mean,
I really believe her.
- Did you mention the message
to anybody in your family?
- Yeah, I talked to my grandma
about it.
She'’s actually the one
who kind of pushed me
into messaging her back.
When we first started
talking to Courtney,
my grandma had a question,
and the question
my grandma had was
exactly how my dad
had passed away.
Courtney gave us the answer.
She said that my dad told her
that it was something to do
with suffocation
and the throat.
- Wow.
And I guess that'’s how he
took his own life in prison?
- Yes.
- Is there anybody
who doesn'’t believe Courtney?
- Yes, my Aunt Shannon
does not believe
Courtney is who
she says she is,
because she'’s always
coming up with excuses
to not meet in person.
- Where is Courtney?
- She says she'’s
in Jupiter, Florida.
- Well, Kentucky and Florida
are kind of far away.
- She used to live in Ohio,
which is one state away.
- Hmm, well, I guess
the big question for me is,
like, what'’s in it for her?
- Yeah.
- Does she ask you for money?
Do you send her stuff?
- Nope, she actually
sends me stuff.
- And what kind of stuff
does she send you?
- For my baby shower,
she sent me a $25 gift card
and a little card with it.
- I mean, this is unbelievable.
I mean, yeah, I'’ve never
been more hooked
on a story in the history
of this show.
- It'’s tragic.
- It'’s out of this world.
- It'’s out of this world;
it'’s hard to believe.
But we'’d love to help you,
so let us fly to Kentucky
and see if we can figure out
what'’s going on.
- Thank you so much.
I really need
professional help,
'’cause I can'’t
do this on my own.
- We might all need
professional help after this.
- Bye.
- Bye.
- Holy.
- I don'’t even
know where to start.
- We'’re in way
over our heads here.
- I think we should go.
- That'’s what I was thinking.
- Hold on.
- I want salmon for lunch too.
- Yes, you'’re also hungry?
Let'’s go.
♪
- Who'’s got the salad?
Nev'’s got the salad.
- ♪ And you knew there'’d
be vultures ♪
♪ [indistinct lyrics]
♪ Underneath the darkness
- Hello, Kentucky.
- Here we are in Louisville.
- Louisville.
- Well, we'’re driving
to Shepherdsville.
- We'’re somewhere in between,
which is exactly
what this episode'’s about.
If we were to believe Courtney,
it seems Kayla'’s father
is stuck between two places.
- Yeah, that'’s right.
- I don'’t know; I'’ve never
come face to face with someone
that I actually
believe has a gift.
- Either Courtney
is a twisted, terrible person,
and she just likes
to mess with people,
or she'’s genuinely able
to communicate with the dead.
- I'’m skeptical.
- All right, we'’re meeting Kayla
at her aunt'’s house, Shannon.
[doorbell rings]
- Hi.
- Hey.
- Hello.
- Hey, ladies.
How are you?
- Hi.
- Nice to meet you.
This is Max.
- How are you?
- Kayla, obviously, we know.
- I'’m Shannon.
- Hi, how are you?
- Good to meet you.
- I'’m Nev.
- Well, come in.
- Great.
Yeah, come on in, everybody.
Well, here, why don'’t we
sit down for a minute?
Well, thanks for having us over.
I know that this whole situation
is part of a much bigger,
tragic family history.
- Look, we'’re just
coming into this.
I don'’t know how much
you ever talk about this,
so we want to kind of respect
however you want to handle it.
- Okay.
My sister and I
witnessed my dad
killing my pregnant mother.
She was stabbed over 27 times,
and then he put us
in the car with him.
We were running from the cops.
They were shooting at us.
[gunshots]
- Finally, they had
to spin the car out,
and he got out of the car.
A picture that I
will never forget--
the police,
they gave her a teddy bear,
and she was holding on
to the police officer
like he was her best friend
with that teddy bear.
So heartbreaking--
so heartbreaking.
- It must'’ve come as
quite a shock to you,
as his sister.
- Oh, yeah, of course.
I know that mental illness
runs in my family,
'’cause my father
is mentally ill,
and he was very, very,
very abusive
to my brother and I.
So of course, I knew
that Frankie as well
had the bipolar schizophrenic,
but it was a total shock,
because even though Frankie
had his wild side,
Frankie had
a loving side as well.
- Kayla, how do you
feel towards him?
- I completely and totally
forgave my dad
for everything he did.
He was still a great man.
He just had mental problems.
I remember going to visit him
while he was in prison,
and I remember him always
calling me and my sister
his baby girls and always
so excited to see us.
I remember talking to him
through the phones there
and kissing the glass
where he was.
He would tell us
how much he loves us
and that he would never do
anything to harm us again,
but he did just that
when my father had
another mental breakdown
and he took his own life.
And that was a big, big impact
on my life and everyone
in our family.
- What was it like growing up?
- It was very emotional
growing up.
When I was in school,
they'’d always have, like,
the Mother'’s Day
and Father'’s Day lunches,
and I didn'’t have
my mom or dad.
And everyone else
got to bring theirs
and show them off
and have fun with them,
and I couldn'’t.
- You had it pretty tough.
You'’ve had a pretty tough life.
[somber music]
♪
- I'’m sorry.
- Don'’t be sorry.
- I usually don'’t cry about it,
but, like, just hearing
myself say it out loud
makes it so real
that I'’m never really
gonna have parents.
♪
So I get really excited
when Courtney messages me,
because inside my mind,
I want to believe her.
I want to have
full faith in her.
I want to think that
she'’s telling the truth,
because that gives me something
to look forward to.
Like, maybe
whenever I pass away,
I might be able to be
reunited with my family.
- Shannon.
- Mm.
- What is your feelings
on all this?
- I don'’t believe it at all.
- How then do you explain
some of the information
that Courtney has been
able to provide?
- It was such a publicized
situation,
especially in our community,
and so all of those newspapers
picked it up.
- But I mean, in terms of,
like, his sandwich preference.
- I believe that
she knows somehow
to put feelers out there
to keep Kayla hanging
on for whatever reason.
But I talked
to her local pastor.
I wanted to ask him
what he thought about psychics,
what he thought about mediums,
and he just said they are
the devil in disguise.
And so I just don'’t believe
that Courtney has
any good intentions.
- Well, look, we'’re very curious
to see Courtney...
- Okay.
- And who is this woman.
- Yeah, let'’s do it.
- All right, well, why don'’t you
show us Courtney'’s page.
Oh, wow, okay.
- So that'’s Courtney.
- I think she'’s really pretty.
- I'’ll tell you this--
that Courtney is beautiful.
- Yeah.
- Or who we think is Courtney.
But I have a feeling
that whoever this is just
stole some random pictures
and made this profile up.
- Can you show us, maybe,
your message exchange with her?
- Yeah, yeah.
- Wow.
"Hi, Kayla.
"I realize that you don'’t
know who I am,
"but I'’m fairly certain
that I know your father.
"And yes, I use the word
know instead of knew,
"because I did not
have the pleasure
"of knowing your father
when he was alive.
"To help you understand
that I am completely sincere
"with what I'’m telling you,
"please let me share
with you a few things
"that I'’ve learned
about your father,
"since he and I have been
in contact with each other.
"Your father likes
the Tennessee Titans
"and the Chicago Bulls,
especially Michael Jordan.
"He likes bologna sandwiches
with ketchup.
"He hates pickles!
"His birthday is February 1st.
"His middle name is Marshall.
"He spent some of his childhood
in foster care.
Does this sound like
your father so far?"
- ♪ Thought I saw your shape
against the black ♪
- "I have so much more
I can tell you,
"but I don'’t want
to overwhelm you.
"However, because I think
it'’s important for you to know,
your mother is with you
all the time."
- ♪ We are not alone
- "She'’s very happy
and at complete peace.
"Her other child is always
with her as well,
a little boy."
- ♪ So hurry up and lose me
♪ Hurry up
and find me again ♪
- "I don'’t advertise
my abilities,
"nor do I charge money
"to help people connect
with their loved ones.
"But your dad thought
that I may be able
"to help bring comfort
and peace to all of you.
Take care.
Courtney."
Wow.
- This is insane.
I mean, if I got
a message like this,
I don'’t know--
I don'’t know what I'’d do.
- Well, look, I mean,
there'’s two things
we'’ve got to figure out here.
First, who'’s Courtney?
Is she this person
that she presents herself as?
And if she is,
then we need to find her
and figure out
if she'’s for real.
- Mm-hmm.
- Right.
- I understand your hopefulness.
- Yeah.
- And I understand
your skepticism.
I don'’t know
which one is correct.
- But if there'’s one thing
that we do know,
it'’s how to figure out
if someone
you'’re talking to
on the Internet is for real,
so let'’s start with that.
- If she is lying,
then she'’s a total sociopath,
like, cold-blooded,
sinister person.
- Yes.
- Like, she'’s playing
with fire here.
- All right,
so we'’re gonna get out of here.
We'’re gonna do some research,
and then we'’ll check back in
with you guys tomorrow.
Hopefully, we'’ll have
figured something out by then,
and we can think
about next steps.
- Okay.
- Yes, that'’s awesome.
- All right.
- Can I talk with you,
just for a minute,
just me and you,
like, outside, for a second?
- Yeah, sure.
If you want to talk
for a minute, that'’s fine.
Excuse us for a second.
- So, you know, Kayla was two
when all this happened.
- Yeah.
- So Kayla really, of course,
couldn'’t really remember a lot,
so she pretty much learns
what everybody else says,
and she wants a perfect picture
of her parents.
And I think that this person,
whoever it may be--
she'’s painting this rainbow
and getting Kayla excited.
And then maybe she has
some bad intentions
to suddenly tell Kayla
about how bad her
daddy really is,
or either one of her parents.
That'’s why I say I'’ll never
talk bad about her mom.
- Is that something that,
you know, as a family,
you'’ve all intentionally
kept from her?
- Yeah, I think intentionally.
We don'’t talk bad.
- Have you guys really
addressed all this
since it happened,
or is this kind, like,
the most you'’ve had to deal with
it since Courtney came around?
- Oh, since Courtney'’s came
around, it'’s been so tough.
You know, it brings
all the questions.
- You don'’t want whatever
is going on here
to somehow end up
drudging up...
- Yes.
- Some things that she doesn'’t
know that might really hurt her.
- And I think what might,
you know, what might drudge up
is what we'’ve tried
to hold back from her.
- You know, as a child,
my grandma kind of sheltered me
of the harsh truth
of what happened to my parents.
And, like, I never
really knew exactly
how they died,
either, until, you know,
a few years ago.
I mean, I knew
my dad killed my mom,
but I didn'’t know how.
I didn'’t know my mom
was pregnant
until, like, two years ago
or maybe three years ago.
- So you'’re probably still
half-expecting to discover--
- Something else, yeah.
- Something else.
- Come on, let'’s go back in.
- All right, thank you.
- Yeah, I appreciate and I
understand your concern.
Do you guys want to walk us out?
- Yes.
- Good to see you.
- Nice to meet you.
- And we'’ll speak to you guys
in the morning.
- Yes.
- All right, good night, ladies.
- Good night-night.
- Thank you.
- We are out of our depth.
- This is wild.
- I mean, this is something
that would be, like,
the plot of a movie.
- Well, one thing
that was interesting was,
you know, I talked to Shannon
really quickly outside.
- Yeah, yeah, what
was that all about?
- Well, she'’s worried
because there was a lot
that went on with
Kayla'’s parents
that wasn'’t so great.
And so that'’s been
kept from her,
because everyone just figured
there'’s no reason
to soil the impression
that she has of her parents
any more than it already is.
And so I think Shannon'’s
concern here is
that if this person really
does know stuff about Frankie,
then they might know things
that might really hurt Kayla.
And that'’s gonna just
sort of send her back,
and I'’m worried for Kayla.
This situation could be
the makings of something
really, really terrible.
- This is sort
of the make-or-break.
Will we immediately find out
that Courtney is a fraud,
or will we discover
there'’s more to this than
we could'’ve ever imagined?
Oh, here it is, Coffee House.
All right, ready to do
this investigation?
- If I wasn'’t ready,
would it matter?
- Nope.
- Hello.
- Hi.
- All right.
Max, have you been here before?
- Why?
- '’Cause there'’s a photo
of you over here.
It'’s weird.
- [laughing]
- I guess you were here once.
- Now come and sit down.
We'’ve got
an investigation to do.
- Okay.
- Kayla.
- Two years ago, Kayla gets
a random Facebook message
from Courtney, a woman claiming
to be in communication
with her deceased father.
- Right.
- She knows what kind
of cigarettes the father likes.
She knows how he
likes his hamburgers
with just ketchup.
- Sports teams.
- Right, the Chicago Bulls
and the Titans.
- But Courtney'’s not trying
to get any money,
not trying to use her
in any way.
The point remains.
What is Courtney'’s motive
if she is faking it?
- I don'’t know.
- So here we go.
Let'’s search
Frank [bleep] Jr.
- So right now,
we'’re typing things
to see what Courtney
could find out about Frank
via the Internet,
instead of divining it
from his dead spirit.
- Here we go.
- "Man guilty of murdering
girlfriend"--that'’s it.
- "A county jury found
Frank [bleep] Jr.
"guilty of murdering
his pregnant girlfriend.
"He admitted to fatally
stabbing Kimberly [bleep]
with more than 20 stab wounds."
That'’s crazy.
So this is a website
that says he was sentenced
to life in prison,
and he hung himself
in the state penitentiary.
Jeez.
- Okay.
She would know how he died.
- Right, she answered
grandma'’s question:
how did he die?
- I want to find out
about the cigarettes.
- Okay.
- Just type in--well,
the cheeseburger
or the cigarettes.
How would she know such a thing?
Where would that pop up?
- Our best bet right now
is to search through the photos
that Kayla'’s family has posted.
All right, so this is
Frankie'’s cousin,
who I guess also has
a Facebook account.
Right, so this is Frankie.
- Wow.
- Whoa.
All right, here'’s
another picture.
- Chicago Bulls shirt.
- Chicago Bulls shirt.
- Oh, right.
She said he loved
Michael Jordan too.
It'’s a safe bet that if someone
was a Chicago Bulls fan
in the '’90s,
they would be
a Michael Jordan fan.
And I think that'’s a Titans hat,
if I'’m not mistaken.
- It does look
like it says Titans,
but I don'’t know if I would
know that if I didn'’t know...
- No, no, right.
- To look for Titans.
- It says, like, Tans.
We still don'’t know
cheeseburger, bologna sandwich,
Marlboro Reds.
Let'’s put a pin in figuring out
how Courtney knows the stuff
that she knows
and just research
Courtney right now.
- All right,
let'’s search her phone number.
- Courtney [bleep].
- Wow.
- Got a hit for
Courtney [bleep].
- It comes back.
- Current address, Ohio.
Maybe she'’s not in Jupiter.
Maybe that'’s a lie.
- Or maybe this is where
she got the cell phone,
and she just hasn'’t
updated her address.
- Maybe.
- Why don'’t we go to Courtney'’s
Facebook page?
- Yes, please.
Courtney [bleep]
lives in Jupiter, Florida--
from Lisbon, Ohio.
- How many friends
does she have?
- 336 friends.
- That'’s kind of a realistic
amount of friends.
- Married to Dennis [bleep],
okay.
- Look, Courtney is friends
with a lot of family members.
- Families with kids.
- She'’s got pictures
of herself
through the years with her kids,
with her family.
Oh, wait, look, look.
In this picture, Alyssa says,
"My mom is so beautiful!"
- Whoa.
- And look, Courtney commented.
"It'’s the pic where
you look like Grandma."
"LOL, you look so beautiful.
Love it.
Thanks, Mom."
This is what a real
Facebook page looks like.
- Right.
Look at this.
This Eric person is commenting
a lot on Courtney'’s pic.
- Yeah, right.
- Posting things.
It looks like he knows
Courtney pretty well.
I think we should
message this guy.
It'’d be great to have a source
who can confirm that Courtney
and Dennis are real people.
- Sure.
- "Hey, Eric.
Making an episode of '’Catfish.'’"
So let'’s send
this message to Eric.
Okay, cool.
We know that from
what we can see,
Courtney is real.
If she is real, is it possible
she is genuinely channeling
Frankie'’s spirit
and has avoided
meeting Kayla maybe
because she doesn'’t want to make
a bigger thing out of this,
or she wants
to keep her distance
and not get too attached?
That'’s still a possibility.
- There'’s no way
she'’s talking to him.
She might have done
a ton of research--
looked at all
the court hearings.
- She could'’ve even
reached out to lawyers
or correctional officers
who dealt with him
when he was arrested...
- Right.
- And asked some questions
as a fake reporter.
Maybe she dated Frankie
at one point or knew him.
- Maybe on of her kids
or someone else
is using her account
to write these messages,
which is why they might not want
to video chat with Kayla.
- But why would Courtney
let somebody use her account?
- What if it'’s her daughter?
- But what'’s so frustrating
is that--
- It doesn'’t explain
her motivation.
- What are her motives?
- We don'’t know.
- We'’re just gonna have
to see what Kayla thinks.
- I'’m stumped.
- This story just keeps getting
weirder and weirder.
[dramatic music]
[rock music]
♪
- Hello.
- Hi.
- It'’s just me today.
- Okay, come on in.
- No, I'’m kidding.
- Oh, okay.
- Max is just slow.
- I almost couldn'’t see you
there with all the camouflage.
- Hey, look who'’s here.
- Look at this guy.
- This is my son Aceson
and my boyfriend Brandon.
- Wow.
Hey, Brandon, how are you? Nev.
- I'’m good.
- Good to meet you.
Look at this guy.
- Hey, Aceson.
What up, buddy?
- He likes that measuring tape.
- Oh, thank you.
Is that a gift for me?
- Wow.
- Look at him go.
He wants some.
[laughing]
- I got him, I got him,
I got him, I got him, I got him.
Yay.
- Yay. Clap and say yay.
- All right, guys, come on in.
Let'’s have a seat.
Here we go.
So it'’s gonna be really hard
for us to prove whether Courtney
is a medium or not.
- Yeah, definitely.
So the two things we thought
we can try to prove are,
is she who she says she is,
and is there any way
she could have gathered
all of the information
from the Internet
and isn'’t actually
talking to your dad?
We started with
just a general search,
and the first thing
that comes up is an article
talking about your dad
and your mom.
It talks about the police chase,
where it happened,
crashing into the--
so there are some details here.
So another thing that came up
in the Google search
was a website
that says he hung himself.
- Mm-hmm, right.
- That was the first test
she passed
was your grandmother
asking how did he die,
and here is that piece
of information.
We'’re starting to find
the pieces of Courtney'’s story
that maybe prove
that she just did some Googling
and isn'’t actually
talking to your dad.
So the next thing
we started doing
was going to Facebook
and looking at the photos
that have been posted from,
I think, your cousin'’s
account, right?
We went to his page,
and we found this.
And in this picture, Frankie'’s
wearing a Chicago Bulls shirt.
He'’s even wearing a hat
that could be a Titans hat.
So at this point,
we felt like, okay,
if she were really clever
and did her research,
I can see how Courtney could
have gathered the information
she'’s relayed to you.
But it does not
explain everything.
- How do they know about
the bologna sandwich?
How do they know about
the cheeseburgers
with no pickles and ketchup?
- So here we thought, okay,
who is this woman?
'’Cause if she'’s legit,
then it becomes a lot
easier to believe
that what she'’s saying is legit.
- Yes.
- Yes.
- So let'’s go to her page.
Everything about this page,
to us, felt very real.
- This is a real Facebook page
for a real Courtney [bleep].
Whether or not that'’s the person
you are talking to
is another question.
- Anyway, we went through
her pictures.
There'’s lots of people
making comments.
Lots of people
are tagged in photos.
But then there'’s this guy Eric
who comments on a lot
of Courtney'’s posts,
so we went to Eric'’s page
because we wanted to see
if we could find someone
who could tell us
that Courtney is a real person.
- Right.
- We sent Eric a message.
We got a message back from Eric.
- Okay.
- I just saw this with you guys.
I knew we had a message,
but I hadn'’t read it yet.
And he said,
"Hey, my name is Erica.
I'’m Eric'’s wife."
No way.
- What?
- Hmm?
- "And we share this
Facebook account.
"I'’m familiar with the show.
What can we help you guys with?"
[dramatic music]
All right, so I just
sent Eric/Erica this number,
and hopefully, they'’ll
get back to us.
At this point,
we'’re really not sure.
There'’s a lot
of evidence to show
that this woman'’s just sort of
a very sophisticated
Internet sleuth and con artist.
- She seems--
[phone ringing]
Wow, that was fast.
- Oh, that was fast.
Okay, this must be
Erica or Eric.
Hello.
- Hello.
- Yeah, hi.
This is Nev.
Who'’s this?
- Hey, Erica.
Great.
Thank you so much
for getting back to me.
We'’re just trying to find out
a little bit more
about your friend Courtney.
- Can you just tell me
how you know Courtney?
- Has she ever mentioned someone
that she speaks
to online named Kayla?
- Do you know anything
about the nature
of Courtney and Kayla'’s
relationship?
♪
- And you understand
the circumstances
under which Courtney and Frankie
are communicating?
- Does Courtney have this gift?
- [whispering]
What?
- Does Courtney have this gift?
- [whispering]
What?
- Wow.
When did she first mention
Frank to you?
- So yeah, a while ago.
- Do you understand the nature
of Frankie'’s passing
and the event--
the sort of major event
that took place
shortly before that?
- Wow.
- Hi, Erica.
It'’s Max.
- You realize how crazy
this all--I mean--
- Yeah.
In a weird way, I kind
of feel like you'’re telling me
that the Easter Bunny exists,
and that makes me--
that makes me happy.
And I want to believe
that'’s true.
- But a part of me
is pretty sure
that it'’s not true
and can'’t be true.
- Okay, well, look,
this is--you know,
the whole situation
is very emotional.
Thank you, Erica.
- Bye.
- There'’s problems for me
with both scenarios,
whether Courtney is telling
the truth, or she'’s lying.
If she'’s telling the truth,
then if God'’s real,
and he'’s really up there,
then why did he take
my parents from me?
[sad music]
♪
As a child, all I wanted
was to have my parents,
and I couldn'’t.
Why would he choose me
to do that to?
♪
Every single night,
I would pray to know
what my parents are doing--
to know, like,
if they'’re watching over me,
if they'’re protecting me.
And why can'’t I talk to them?
♪
If Courtney is lying about this,
this is gonna be so messed up--
like, completely messed up.
I'’m gonna be so upset.
♪
- Shannon,
what do you make of this?
- I'’m pretty shocked.
I was the one wanting to believe
that there'’s no way
it could be true,
I mean, at all.
Why would he attach to someone
he doesn'’t even know?
I mean, the only thing I could
get out of this--it'’s just--
I'’m shocked.
- I'’m just struck
by that phone call.
It strikes me as very unlikely
that she'’d be
playing along or lying.
What would be her incentive
or motivation to do that?
I don'’t know.
That said,
when people
want to believe things,
they believe things.
We see it on our show
all the time.
So could Courtney be
an incredibly persuasive person,
and you know,
could this be something
that she tells some friend
because she enjoys
making things up
and the fantasy of it all?
Or maybe could she be convinced
this is real herself?
I mean, at this point,
I don'’t know what to believe.
The only way to really
figure out what'’s going on here
is to find Courtney
and talk to her.
I mean, if she can sit down
in front of you
and tell you that this is real,
you know, as much as one
can prove that spirits exist,
then that'’s what we have to do.
♪
- Yeah, hi.
Is this Courtney?
- We'’re very curious
and not quite sure
what to make of all this.
- What are you thinking?
- It'’s mind-blowing, you know.
Why don'’t you hear a lot more
of people speaking
to dead people,
you know, like,
other than money?
- What other motive could
she have to do this?
- Yeah, it seems like right now
she has no motive.
- It almost seems
like exposing herself
as a medium is something
she almost doesn'’t want.
- Mm-hmm, right.
- But she would do it for you.
- Mm-hmm.
- The last sort of piece
of the puzzle for her
would be to sort of
sit down with you
and have an in-person
experience,
because in many ways, you are,
you know, the closest thing
she has now to her parents.
As a result of that,
her father'’s presence
in her life
has meant a great deal to her.
- Um, okay.
- She'’s been hanging a lot
of her hopes
and dreams on you.
What I'’d like to be able
to tell Kayla right now
is that, you know, we spoke,
and you'’re willing to,
you know, sit down with her
and meet her finally.
- What, um--
- Okay, well, then, you know,
we'’ll leave Kentucky tomorrow
and head down to Florida
and just have to see
what happens next.
- Yeah.
Okay, thank you, Nev.
- All right, bye-bye.
- Good-bye.
- Okay.
I spoke to Courtney.
She wants to meet you.
- Oh, my gosh.
- At this point,
I am speechless
in terms of where this is going
and what to believe
or not believe.
But we should get going,
you know, first thing
tomorrow morning.
- Let'’s do it.
I need answers.
I need answers so bad.
[upbeat music]
- Have you been down
to Florida before?
- Never--I'’ve never been
on an airplane before.
- We'’ve got a virgin flier.
- Wow.
Well, the good news is,
the flight will probably be
the least freaky part
of this whole experience.
- ♪ What kind of world
♪ Will there be
when I wake up ♪
- My heart is in my stomach,
completely.
- ♪ I hear you call
so far away ♪
- So you'’ve never seen
what Kentucky looks
like from the air.
- It'’s beautiful.
- ♪ And don'’t you
give up on me ♪
♪ As a dive into the dark
♪ Slip into the endless sea
- Okay, guys, Jupiter.
- I am so freaked out.
I mean, I feel like I already
know this woman,
like, from top to bottom,
but then again,
I feel like I don'’t
know her at all.
- We'’re one step
closer to the truth.
[knocking on door]
- Hello.
- Wow.
Hey, ladies.
- Whoa.
- Come in.
- Cute outfit.
- Yeah, you look so nice, Kayla.
- Thanks.
- So I told her
to text me a place.
She said, okay, "Hey,
good morning, Nev."
Okay, cool, she says,
"I can meet you around lunchtime
at DuBois Park."
- I am so nervous.
I feel like my heart'’s
all the way in my feet,
instead of just my stomach.
Inside, I just want
to believe her and,
like, give all my trust to her.
But then I'’m just like,
"I can'’t do that," you know.
- I think we have
to kind of walk in
half-expecting it
to not be true.
- Yeah.
- Well, here'’s what
we were thinking.
Today we take just Kayla
to meet Courtney,
because this is really about you
and your dad and Courtney.
Does that work for everybody?
- It'’s perfect.
- That'’s fine.
- All right, okay.
Let'’s do it.
See you later.
- All right, see you guys later.
- Bye.
- Am I dreaming right now?
- You'’re not dreaming.
This is real.
I just don'’t know
what to expect.
- I don'’t either.
This is insane.
- Well, usually this is where
we try to prepare ourselves.
I don'’t really know
what I can do to prepare you
for this one.
- Yeah.
- All right, DuBois Park.
This is it.
- This is scary.
- Let'’s do it.
[eerie music]
♪
- Can we go wait over here?
- Yeah.
♪
- I'’m so nervous.
This is gonna be, like,
a really big life-changer...
- Yeah.
- Either way it goes.
♪
- Look at this little guy.
That'’s kind of weird, right?
- I'’ve never seen them stand up
like that.
Are they supposed
to stand like that?
♪
Maybe it'’s--
I'’m not ruling anything out.
He senses something.
♪
- You don'’t know what kind
of car she drives, do you?
- This is so scary.
Is that her?
I think it is.
- Where?
- Right there.
She just came out
of the red car.
- That does look like her,
walking slowly over here.
- Oh, gosh, I'’m so nervous.
♪
[whispering]
Oh, my gosh.
Are you Courtney?
- Of course I am.
- Wow, hi.
- Hi.
- Nev.
- Nev.
You have your dad'’s eyes.
♪
Oh, you have your dad'’s eyes.
- [whispering]
Oh, my gosh.
Are you Courtney?
- Of course I am.
- Wow, hi.
- Hi.
- Nev.
- Nev.
You have your dad'’s eyes.
[laughing]
Oh, you have your dad'’s eyes.
Hi, honey.
- Are you telling the truth?
- Of course I am.
Oh, of course I am.
I would never, ever
make something up
like this that could be so,
you know, potentially hurtful.
I just--I knew
that the situation
was so strange.
You know, the more
I talked with your dad,
the more I realized, you know,
something good has to come
out of this,
and I wanted to be able
to give you that peace of mind.
I wanted to be able
to give you maybe some closure
Um, and...
[dramatic music]
♪
- There'’s so much
I want to talk to you about.
- Me too.
♪
It was so overwhelming
for me too,
for the longest time,
because I know the situation
that he was in,
and I know everything
that happened.
- How did you know about that?
- He told me.
He went through the story.
It was not something that
Frankie really wanted to happen.
I know that he feels
so much regret.
And he struggles with the fact
that his daughters
do forgive him
because he doesn'’t even think he
deserves forgiveness himself.
- So you--you'’ve never
met him in real life,
even though you grew up in Ohio?
You never crossed paths
with him in Kentucky?
- No, no, no I'’ve never--
I don'’t have any connection
with him whatsoever.
- And did you read about this,
you know,
story when it happened?
- No, this was something
that happened in
a small town in Kentucky,
and it just--there was no reason
for it to make it all the way
to northeastern Ohio news.
And to be honest with you,
I never even knew that
I had this ability.
I mean, it was so overwhelming
for me, too,
for the longest time.
When he first showed up,
I remember I was in my room,
and I was focused very much
on writing that
I was working on.
I actually fell asleep
at my laptop,
and it was just a little--
a couple hours later maybe.
I woke up,
and I remember opening my eyes.
And I could see out of
the corner of my eye,
but I didn'’t want to look,
but there was a figure
at the side of my bed,
and right then and there,
I could pick up the feelings.
He was also confused.
He was also very scared.
He did not realize
how he had gotten there.
He did not know why.
And all I could think of was,
"Well, he must need help."
- I assume
once he told you his name,
you went on the Internet
and looked him up.
- Absolutely did I get on Google
to confirm.
Am I crazy?
Did this person
in his story really exist?
Because believe me, I was
just as skeptical, completely.
There was quite a while
when I actually thought,
"What if I'’m insane?
"Like, what if I'’m,
like, schizophrenic?
What if I'’m losing it?"
- Since this started,
have you gone to any doctors
to see if perhaps you might
have a medical condition
like a schizophrenia?
- Yeah, absolutely.
I went to see a doctor,
and I don'’t have any sort
of personality disorder.
I don'’t have schizophrenia.
I don'’t have any
of the mental illnesses.
So it took me a long time
before I really realized,
no, he is real,
and I can hear him,
and I can see him.
- Like, I want to believe it
so bad.
It'’s really hard for me
to, like,
cope with all of this at once.
I just don'’t really understand
all of this, pretty much.
Like, it'’s crazy.
- It'’s not gonna help much.
- One thing that we had
some doubts about
that Kayla expressed to us was,
she had wanted to try
to meet up with you,
and you always
kind of had an excuse.
What was the real story there?
- I wasn'’t even 100% sure
if I could stand up
to my own scrutiny,
let alone
from Kayla'’s family
or Kayla herself.
I did not want anything
to hurt anybody.
- Had you looked at her
or researched the family
at all before you contacted?
- The day that I actually
decided to contact her,
I just picked Facebook,
and I was like,
"She'’s probably on Facebook."
I mean, who isn'’t?
So I just looked her up.
- Can we take a break
for two minutes?
- Sure.
♪
- I buy it.
- Yeah.
- She sold me on it.
- Which means that--
- Well, I feel like
she'’s telling the truth.
We'’ve talked to liars.
She doesn'’t strike me as a liar.
- I don'’t think so either.
We'’re way out of our league.
There is no league for this.
We just wanted to sort of--
- I just don'’t know
where I stand right now.
I want to believe her so bad,
but there'’s some things.
I know everything
about my parents.
My Aunt Shannon thinks
I'’m stupid, though.
- Oh, we don'’t think you don'’t.
- Pretty sure I already know
what she told you.
- She really didn'’t
tell us anything.
- No, like, when we
were at her house,
she kind of, like,
pulled you aside.
- Yeah, but that wasn'’t
to tell me anything.
It was--
she was more just
expressing a concern.
- Yeah, yes.
- But she didn'’t get into
any specifics with me,
so I don'’t know anything.
- If Courtney can tell me--like,
there are dark secrets
which my dad probably
would'’ve told her.
If she can tell me something
that only, like, my grandma
and family knows,
I'’ll be amazed,
but the things she'’s saying
right now are things
I already know and that
she'’s already said to me.
- But I don'’t think she'’s lying.
- Well, then I want to find out
if she knows those secrets.
- All right, so why don'’t we
just leave you guys to sit here.
We'’ll just let you guys talk.
[dramatic music]
♪
- I'’m just so emotional
right now,
'’cause you sound so sincere,
but it'’s still--like my mind is
like, "You can'’t, though."
- I know.
- And my heart and my mind
want you to be
completely telling the truth,
and but, like,
it'’s really hard for me to,
like, tell with
these kind of things,
'’cause, like, I'’ve already had
so much go on in my life.
- Honestly, Kayla, that was
why I struggled sometimes
before getting in touch with you
because I was like,
this is--
not only is this just
"are you kidding me," bizarre,
but also, I mean,
I can totally look like
just sort of some
screwball idiot.
I mean, but then the more
I thought about it,
the more, like, I can'’t deny
that this really happened.
- Can you tell me, like,
a few things that--it can--
you may think that
it'’ll hurt my feelings.
Even if it does,
I want to know.
Like, I want to know
what you know
that you might not
have told me before.
- You know, I think maybe
I didn'’t go into a lot of detail
about your dad and your mom'’s
relationship,
and he did have a lot
of animosity towards your mom.
And yes, your mom
had a different--you know,
she really made some
different life choices
that other people maybe wouldn'’t
have or could frown upon
or would think
differently about.
But inside, she--
- Like, what are you
talking about?
- Didn'’t she strip?
Did she work at a strip club?
She was, like, maybe a stripper.
♪
- Did he tell you, like,
anything else?
- I know he himself was abused.
I know there was being locked
in a room or a basement
or something about,
you know, locks.
♪
- Hold on,
I think I'’m gonna--
you'’re gonna meet again
tomorrow, right,
and talk more?
- Yeah.
- Okay, '’cause I'’m getting
really overwhelmed,
so I'’m gonna see--
go talk to them a little bit.
- Okay.
♪
- What happened?
- This woman is way too real--
way too real.
I mean, I'’m probably crazy
to you guys now,
'’cause, like, I just--I want
to completely believe her
'’cause she knows, like,
about my mom being a stripper.
She also said things
about abuse,
not just the abuse
that happened to my dad,
but I don'’t know
if Aunt Shannon told you guys
how her and my dad
would get trapped
in the basement.
Courtney just said that.
Like, she said things
that no one should know.
So unless my aunt'’s
talking to her, this woman--
she'’s got to be real.
- I'’m probably crazy
to you guys now,
'’cause, like, I just--I want
to completely believe her
'’cause she knows, like,
about my mom being a stripper.
She also said things
about abuse,
not just the abuse
that happened to my dad,
but I don'’t know
if Aunt Shannon told you guys
how her and my dad
would get trapped
in the basement.
Courtney just said that.
Like, she said things
that no one should know.
So unless my aunt'’s
talking to her, this woman--
she'’s got to be real.
- Well, look, why don'’t--
this is a lot.
- Yeah.
- Why don'’t we walk back
over there and--
- Okay.
[eerie music]
- So Kayla just was overwhelmed,
I think, with the amount
of information
that you seem to know.
So firstly, thank you
for meeting us.
As I mentioned to you, you know,
we brought Aunt Shannon with us.
We didn'’t bring her today
because we wanted
to give you guys
a chance to meet
each other first,
but she is here.
So if you'’re available tomorrow,
I think it might be great
to all get together,
so that she can hear
some of this stuff,
and if she has any questions--
if there'’s any chance
that you can talk
to Frankie tonight--
- Of course, always.
I want to make sure that I can
keep in contact with him.
- All right.
Nice to meet you.
- You too.
Thank you.
Thanks.
- All right.
See you later.
[sighs]
I mean, this is insane.
- Too insane.
- This is insane
that this woman
has very effectively
convinced you more than anybody
that she is talking
to your dead dad.
If this is some kind
of performance, like, bravo.
- I don'’t know, guys.
I believe it.
- I just don'’t understand it.
- Sometimes there are things
you just can'’t understand.
I mean, look, this was
a lot of information
to process and take in.
I thought we'’d all sleep on it,
see how we feel
about it tomorrow,
and then go meet back up
with Courtney.
- Yeah.
- All right, nap time.
[dramatic music]
- Good morning.
- Good morning.
- How are you?
- All right.
- Good.
- How was your night?
- Good.
- Good.
Good to see you this morning.
- You too.
- How are you feeling?
- I don'’t know.
Thank you.
♪
- Well,
this should be interesting.
We'’re heading
to Courtney'’s house.
- Oh, wow.
- Did you get any sleep
last night?
- Barely.
She knows so much,
and I just kept
thinking about that,
but, like, I also really
kept thinking
about how she showed no emotion.
- She showed one emotion,
and it was sort of,
like, cautious.
- But also, she'’s coming into it
knowing that we'’re not
totally believing her.
I'’m willing to give her
the benefit of the doubt
on that.
- That'’s true, but she'’s also
been talking to a dead guy
for five years.
- Right, yeah.
- So nothing about this
situation is normal.
♪
- This is so crazy that
we'’re going to her house.
- Still, none of this
feels real to me.
- Okay.
Okay, here we go, guys.
♪
Say hello.
- Hi.
[knocking on door]
It'’s a wolf pack.
♪
- Hey, Nev.
- Hi, how are you?
Good to see you.
How are you?
- Yes, you too.
Hi, honey.
- Can we all come in?
- Yes, please, come in.
- Great.
- Thank you.
- All right, well,
I don'’t know if anybody has
initial sort of thoughts or not.
Yesterday, obviously, was
pretty interesting and amazing.
- Yeah, I didn'’t know
if we were even gonna be able
to have an opportunity
to hang out,
because when I
saw you yesterday,
I was kind of, probably,
more reserved.
Actually, I was 100%
more reserved,
so I just kind of kept
all my enthusiasm inside,
and I didn'’t want
to just break down either.
I didn'’t know if that
would be more upsetting,
for you to be like,
"Why are you crying?
You'’re a fake.
You'’re a fraud."
You know, so I just thought
maybe I should just,
you know, hold it all together.
- Something we'’re pretty
curious about is,
were you able to speak
to Frankie last night?
- Yes, I was.
- Really?
- Yes.
I said, "Kayla'’s
here in Florida,"
and he didn'’t say anything.
I said, "Shannon'’s
here in Florida too."
He was very quiet.
I think there was a big part
of him that felt, like,
that you just don'’t like him,
and I don'’t think
he quite understands
why you would be here,
because he thinks
you just have--
he'’s nothing but trash to you.
You hate him.
You don'’t like him.
You have issues with him.
You never did like him.
- Oh, yeah?
- And I feel so bad.
Please don'’t attach any of my
personal opinions to this.
He literally just says--he says,
"She was a bossy bitch."
- Does that sound like something
he has said or would say?
- Yeah, yeah.
Oh, yeah, that'’s him.
- Bossy and--
- Yep, that would be him.
- Do you still feel anger
towards him?
- Well, of course.
If I didn'’t feel
anger towards him,
then it would be crazy.
Yes, I feel anger.
Why did you take such a loving,
beautiful lady
that was pregnant--
why did you take her life?
But then I can come to realize
it was mental illness.
It doesn'’t mean that
I have hate for him.
So I'’m mad
at the mental illness.
- Did he ever at one point
in time, though,
look for some sort of help?
Because he'’s mentioned
to me before
that nobody would help him.
- I mean, he had people there
as his advocate or whatnot,
and he had a special person
he really would run to.
- He torments the hell
out of her now
because she didn'’t help him.
- Who? Wait.
- Yeah, who?
- The foster--there was a mom,
a foster mom of his.
He torments the hell out of her
because she would not help him,
so he was very angry at her.
- He still does.
- Hold on.
I got questions right now.
Okay, um--
- Was it the foster mom
that he slept with?
And he was very upset.
- This is crazy.
- We don'’t know anything
about this.
- This is crazy.
Okay, he slept with one
of his foster moms.
- Who else knew that?
- Just about us and my mom.
I kind of just dismissed it,
but a long time ago, like,
six or seven years ago,
she messaged me,
saying that she'’s been
seeing my dad,
saying that she'’s been
smelling cigarette smoke
and alcohol and stuff like that.
♪
- So he can haunt people?
- That'’s an awful way
of putting it,
but if there'’s somebody
that he legitimately is really
angry or upset with,
then yeah.
- Does he--
what does he think about us?
- [laughing]
- [indistinct speech]
- He'’s here,
but he won'’t come out here.
- He'’s here right now?
- He'’s here, yeah.
- Well, what do you mean,
he'’s here,
but he won'’t come out?
- He'’s here,
but he won'’t come out,
like, into this area.
- So he'’s watching?
- He'’s here.
He knows exactly what'’s
going on, yeah.
- This episode of
"Catfish: The TV Show"
continues now.
[dramatic music]
♪
- He'’s here,
but he won'’t come out here.
- He'’s here right now?
- He'’s here, yeah.
- Well, what do you mean,
he'’s here,
but he won'’t come out?
- He'’s here,
but he won'’t come out,
like, into this area.
- So he'’s watching?
- He'’s here.
He knows exactly what'’s
going on, yeah.
- Since we'’re here,
and you say that you feel
as though Frankie
might be here as well,
why don'’t we let you guys
have some time,
because this is really
about you and your dad
and your family.
Does that work good
for everybody?
- It'’s perfect.
- All right, let'’s have a chat
in the car.
I mean, this is crazy.
How does she know
all that stuff?
- That'’s unbelievable
that she knows
about the foster mom.
- Nobody ever, ever knew
that he slept with that lady.
I mean, you could imagine
that had to be a deep secret.
- Have you, like,
asked him to come in here?
- Yeah, I did, I did.
You know what,
okay, this is really--
- That'’s amazing right there.
I got these cold chills.
Look at that.
Because I'’m not cold by far,
and I'’m just getting
these cold--everything'’s just
standing up everywhere,
so I'’m thinking
that he has to be
getting closer.
Now, that might just
be me thinking.
- Maybe--is he in here?
- Yeah.
- All right.
I guess I'’m just gonna,
like, talk out loud,
and hopefully, he'’ll
answer you back.
So he'’s, like, connecting
with you right now?
- Mm-hmm.
- Daddy, I am sorry
for everything
that you have gone through
and what has happened to you.
Even though a lot of people
don'’t and won'’t,
I forgive you.
It sucks that you'’re gone,
but I'’m not angry with you.
- He said,
"Do you miss your mama?"
- Yes.
- He wants me to tell you
that she'’s with you.
He'’s sorry that she can'’t be
with you in a better way.
I'’m sorry for what I done.
He loves you,
and he'’s proud of you.
He wishes he could
give you a hug.
He wants to know
if you guys--if you know--
I know you know this,
but he wants me to ask you
if you know that he comes
to visit at night.
- Courtney told us, yeah.
- When you come to me at night,
is it good or bad?
- Well, this isn'’t gonna
ultimately end up positive,
because I didn'’t
come to see you.
I hated you,
but that'’s kind of changed.
- This is unbelievable.
I mean, like,
I believe you,
but, like, it'’s just--
this is so crazy,
but it'’s not at the same time.
- Now that we met,
do you think that we
could become closer?
And I mean,
I know it'’s gonna
be a hard decision,
and you'’re not just gonna say,
"Oh, yes, come down with
your family tomorrow," but--
- Yes, I will.
- Oh, you would be wi--
- Yes, absolutely.
- I mean, like, just not saying
that just right now,
but you would be willing
to let us come around?
- Absolutely.
That'’s what I want.
We were brought together
for a reason.
- Hi, guys.
- Hi.
- Mind if we come in?
- Yeah, no, come on in.
- How is it going?
- Crazy.
She knows so much stuff.
Well, I'’m totally, I guess, nuts
to a lot of people out there,
but I believe her.
There is no way I can'’t.
- There'’s things
that has been said today
that nobody could
or should know,
so I'’m kind of split,
because that goes
against my religious views,
but I'’m getting pulled
more this way that I believe.
- I'’m so thankful
that we were
finally able to meet,
and I really think that
we will be able to give Frankie
that resolve that
he so desperately needs.
- I don'’t know what else
there is for us,
so unless you need to reveal
that this is
all some crazy trick
you guys have been
playing on us--
- I would not do that.
- I don'’t know
who to believe anymore.
- [laughing]
- ♪ Leave a light on
- All right,
we'’ll see you guys.
- ♪ Leave a light on
- Thank you.
- See you later, Courtney.
- ♪ Leave a light on
when you go ♪
♪
♪ Leave a light on
- I don'’t know, guys.
I don'’t know.
I don'’t know what to say.
- I don'’t know either.
- What just happened?
- It'’s crazy.
- I think I turned psychotic,
because I believe her.
I think that just happened.
- I mean, I believe her too.
- I mean,
it really is unbelievable.
- Maybe it'’s a real thing.
♪
for behind-the-scenes footage
and see how the crew
grappled with the mysteries
of this episode.
- You already know
that Tara lied to you.
- Yeah.
- What?
- Now we have a new suspect:
the victim.
- What the hell is going on?
- She doesn'’t seem like someone
that would whip up
so much drama.
- Now I don'’t know
who to trust.
- If there'’s anything
you want to tell us,
let us know.
1499
01:02:06.
- Well, usually this is where
we try to prepare ourselves,
but I don'’t really know
what I can do to prepare you
for this one.
- Yeah.
- Logic would tell me
you can'’t talk to dead people.
- If Courtney is lying
about this,
this is gonna be so messed up.
- What just happened?
- This is insane.
- At this point,
I don'’t know what to believe.
- Are you telling the truth?
[dramatic music]
- I went for a little jog
this morning that turned
into a half marathon.
- This is weird.
When I said, "Let'’s roll,"
I didn'’t mean this.
- All right, we got one.
"I think someone
is using my family
to catfish me."
- Well, this sounds different.
- "Dear Nev and Max,
my name is Kayla,
"and I'’m 18 years old.
"My boyfriend and I have a son,
"and we live just down the road
from our families
"in Shepherdsville, Kentucky.
"Family is a huge part
of our lives,
"but my dad has not been around
since I was a child.
"Just over two years ago,
"a woman named Courtney
contacted me,
letting me know that my dad
really wants to be in my life."
- ♪ Leave a light on
"Over the last two years,
Courtney and I have become
close friends."
- ♪ Leave a light on
when you go ♪
"Although Courtney has been
giving me messages from my dad,
"I haven'’t seen him
since I was a kid,
"the reason being is that my dad
"passed away almost
14 years ago.
[ominous music]
Courtney claims she'’s been
channeling his spirit."
- Oh.
- Oh, boy,
- Okay.
- Wait, is Courtney,
like, a medium?
- Yeah, she'’s speaking
to her dad
from beyond the grave.
- Whoa.
"We'’ve talked over the phone,
"but we'’ve never video chatted.
"I'’ve tried to meet her
in person,
"but every time,
Courtney has an excuse.
"I want to believe
that Courtney is real,
but if she is truly
who she says she is,
then why won'’t she meet us?"
Hold on a second.
I do not take a firm position
on knowing all the truths
of the universe,
but logic would tell me
you can'’t talk to dead people.
- Is there another reason
she could be doing this?
Is Kayla sending Courtney money?
What'’s Courtney'’s angle?
- Let'’s get Kayla
and find out what is going on.
both: Hi.
- Hello.
- How are you?
- Hey, Kayla.
- Doing good.
Sorry, y'’all.
I'’m a little nervous.
- Well, the nervousness
will wear off.
We'’re pretty easy to be around.
- Okay, good.
- So we read your story,
and we'’re really fascinated.
Can you kind of tell us
the whole thing
from the beginning?
- In 1999, my father
had a mental breakdown,
and he ended up killing my mom.
♪
And a few years later,
after being in prison,
he had another mental breakdown
and took his own life.
- Wow.
- Yeah, that'’s really intense
and terrible.
- Do you remember any of it,
or you were too young, kind of?
- I remember my dad,
but with the situation
with my mom,
I don'’t really
remember a whole lot.
- Who did you end up
living with?
- I lived with my grandma,
my father'’s mother.
- Okay, so two years ago,
out of the blue,
you just get this email.
- Yeah.
- Can you explain
how that happened?
- Courtney sent me
a Facebook message
saying she talked to my dad.
She was like,
"You might not believe me,
"but if you could,
please message me back
"as soon as you can,
and we can talk
about everything."
And at first, I was in shock,
and I didn'’t know
what to think.
She knew things like
the brand of cigarettes
he smoked and how he liked
his cheeseburgers
with ketchup only.
And she knew how he liked
his bologna sandwiches
and what kind of ice cream
he liked.
Nobody on this earth
should really know some
of the certain things
that she knows.
She says she'’s a medium,
and I mean,
I really believe her.
- Did you mention the message
to anybody in your family?
- Yeah, I talked to my grandma
about it.
She'’s actually the one
who kind of pushed me
into messaging her back.
When we first started
talking to Courtney,
my grandma had a question,
and the question
my grandma had was
exactly how my dad
had passed away.
Courtney gave us the answer.
She said that my dad told her
that it was something to do
with suffocation
and the throat.
- Wow.
And I guess that'’s how he
took his own life in prison?
- Yes.
- Is there anybody
who doesn'’t believe Courtney?
- Yes, my Aunt Shannon
does not believe
Courtney is who
she says she is,
because she'’s always
coming up with excuses
to not meet in person.
- Where is Courtney?
- She says she'’s
in Jupiter, Florida.
- Well, Kentucky and Florida
are kind of far away.
- She used to live in Ohio,
which is one state away.
- Hmm, well, I guess
the big question for me is,
like, what'’s in it for her?
- Yeah.
- Does she ask you for money?
Do you send her stuff?
- Nope, she actually
sends me stuff.
- And what kind of stuff
does she send you?
- For my baby shower,
she sent me a $25 gift card
and a little card with it.
- I mean, this is unbelievable.
I mean, yeah, I'’ve never
been more hooked
on a story in the history
of this show.
- It'’s tragic.
- It'’s out of this world.
- It'’s out of this world;
it'’s hard to believe.
But we'’d love to help you,
so let us fly to Kentucky
and see if we can figure out
what'’s going on.
- Thank you so much.
I really need
professional help,
'’cause I can'’t
do this on my own.
- We might all need
professional help after this.
- Bye.
- Bye.
- Holy.
- I don'’t even
know where to start.
- We'’re in way
over our heads here.
- I think we should go.
- That'’s what I was thinking.
- Hold on.
- I want salmon for lunch too.
- Yes, you'’re also hungry?
Let'’s go.
♪
- Who'’s got the salad?
Nev'’s got the salad.
- ♪ And you knew there'’d
be vultures ♪
♪ [indistinct lyrics]
♪ Underneath the darkness
- Hello, Kentucky.
- Here we are in Louisville.
- Louisville.
- Well, we'’re driving
to Shepherdsville.
- We'’re somewhere in between,
which is exactly
what this episode'’s about.
If we were to believe Courtney,
it seems Kayla'’s father
is stuck between two places.
- Yeah, that'’s right.
- I don'’t know; I'’ve never
come face to face with someone
that I actually
believe has a gift.
- Either Courtney
is a twisted, terrible person,
and she just likes
to mess with people,
or she'’s genuinely able
to communicate with the dead.
- I'’m skeptical.
- All right, we'’re meeting Kayla
at her aunt'’s house, Shannon.
[doorbell rings]
- Hi.
- Hey.
- Hello.
- Hey, ladies.
How are you?
- Hi.
- Nice to meet you.
This is Max.
- How are you?
- Kayla, obviously, we know.
- I'’m Shannon.
- Hi, how are you?
- Good to meet you.
- I'’m Nev.
- Well, come in.
- Great.
Yeah, come on in, everybody.
Well, here, why don'’t we
sit down for a minute?
Well, thanks for having us over.
I know that this whole situation
is part of a much bigger,
tragic family history.
- Look, we'’re just
coming into this.
I don'’t know how much
you ever talk about this,
so we want to kind of respect
however you want to handle it.
- Okay.
My sister and I
witnessed my dad
killing my pregnant mother.
She was stabbed over 27 times,
and then he put us
in the car with him.
We were running from the cops.
They were shooting at us.
[gunshots]
- Finally, they had
to spin the car out,
and he got out of the car.
A picture that I
will never forget--
the police,
they gave her a teddy bear,
and she was holding on
to the police officer
like he was her best friend
with that teddy bear.
So heartbreaking--
so heartbreaking.
- It must'’ve come as
quite a shock to you,
as his sister.
- Oh, yeah, of course.
I know that mental illness
runs in my family,
'’cause my father
is mentally ill,
and he was very, very,
very abusive
to my brother and I.
So of course, I knew
that Frankie as well
had the bipolar schizophrenic,
but it was a total shock,
because even though Frankie
had his wild side,
Frankie had
a loving side as well.
- Kayla, how do you
feel towards him?
- I completely and totally
forgave my dad
for everything he did.
He was still a great man.
He just had mental problems.
I remember going to visit him
while he was in prison,
and I remember him always
calling me and my sister
his baby girls and always
so excited to see us.
I remember talking to him
through the phones there
and kissing the glass
where he was.
He would tell us
how much he loves us
and that he would never do
anything to harm us again,
but he did just that
when my father had
another mental breakdown
and he took his own life.
And that was a big, big impact
on my life and everyone
in our family.
- What was it like growing up?
- It was very emotional
growing up.
When I was in school,
they'’d always have, like,
the Mother'’s Day
and Father'’s Day lunches,
and I didn'’t have
my mom or dad.
And everyone else
got to bring theirs
and show them off
and have fun with them,
and I couldn'’t.
- You had it pretty tough.
You'’ve had a pretty tough life.
[somber music]
♪
- I'’m sorry.
- Don'’t be sorry.
- I usually don'’t cry about it,
but, like, just hearing
myself say it out loud
makes it so real
that I'’m never really
gonna have parents.
♪
So I get really excited
when Courtney messages me,
because inside my mind,
I want to believe her.
I want to have
full faith in her.
I want to think that
she'’s telling the truth,
because that gives me something
to look forward to.
Like, maybe
whenever I pass away,
I might be able to be
reunited with my family.
- Shannon.
- Mm.
- What is your feelings
on all this?
- I don'’t believe it at all.
- How then do you explain
some of the information
that Courtney has been
able to provide?
- It was such a publicized
situation,
especially in our community,
and so all of those newspapers
picked it up.
- But I mean, in terms of,
like, his sandwich preference.
- I believe that
she knows somehow
to put feelers out there
to keep Kayla hanging
on for whatever reason.
But I talked
to her local pastor.
I wanted to ask him
what he thought about psychics,
what he thought about mediums,
and he just said they are
the devil in disguise.
And so I just don'’t believe
that Courtney has
any good intentions.
- Well, look, we'’re very curious
to see Courtney...
- Okay.
- And who is this woman.
- Yeah, let'’s do it.
- All right, well, why don'’t you
show us Courtney'’s page.
Oh, wow, okay.
- So that'’s Courtney.
- I think she'’s really pretty.
- I'’ll tell you this--
that Courtney is beautiful.
- Yeah.
- Or who we think is Courtney.
But I have a feeling
that whoever this is just
stole some random pictures
and made this profile up.
- Can you show us, maybe,
your message exchange with her?
- Yeah, yeah.
- Wow.
"Hi, Kayla.
"I realize that you don'’t
know who I am,
"but I'’m fairly certain
that I know your father.
"And yes, I use the word
know instead of knew,
"because I did not
have the pleasure
"of knowing your father
when he was alive.
"To help you understand
that I am completely sincere
"with what I'’m telling you,
"please let me share
with you a few things
"that I'’ve learned
about your father,
"since he and I have been
in contact with each other.
"Your father likes
the Tennessee Titans
"and the Chicago Bulls,
especially Michael Jordan.
"He likes bologna sandwiches
with ketchup.
"He hates pickles!
"His birthday is February 1st.
"His middle name is Marshall.
"He spent some of his childhood
in foster care.
Does this sound like
your father so far?"
- ♪ Thought I saw your shape
against the black ♪
- "I have so much more
I can tell you,
"but I don'’t want
to overwhelm you.
"However, because I think
it'’s important for you to know,
your mother is with you
all the time."
- ♪ We are not alone
- "She'’s very happy
and at complete peace.
"Her other child is always
with her as well,
a little boy."
- ♪ So hurry up and lose me
♪ Hurry up
and find me again ♪
- "I don'’t advertise
my abilities,
"nor do I charge money
"to help people connect
with their loved ones.
"But your dad thought
that I may be able
"to help bring comfort
and peace to all of you.
Take care.
Courtney."
Wow.
- This is insane.
I mean, if I got
a message like this,
I don'’t know--
I don'’t know what I'’d do.
- Well, look, I mean,
there'’s two things
we'’ve got to figure out here.
First, who'’s Courtney?
Is she this person
that she presents herself as?
And if she is,
then we need to find her
and figure out
if she'’s for real.
- Mm-hmm.
- Right.
- I understand your hopefulness.
- Yeah.
- And I understand
your skepticism.
I don'’t know
which one is correct.
- But if there'’s one thing
that we do know,
it'’s how to figure out
if someone
you'’re talking to
on the Internet is for real,
so let'’s start with that.
- If she is lying,
then she'’s a total sociopath,
like, cold-blooded,
sinister person.
- Yes.
- Like, she'’s playing
with fire here.
- All right,
so we'’re gonna get out of here.
We'’re gonna do some research,
and then we'’ll check back in
with you guys tomorrow.
Hopefully, we'’ll have
figured something out by then,
and we can think
about next steps.
- Okay.
- Yes, that'’s awesome.
- All right.
- Can I talk with you,
just for a minute,
just me and you,
like, outside, for a second?
- Yeah, sure.
If you want to talk
for a minute, that'’s fine.
Excuse us for a second.
- So, you know, Kayla was two
when all this happened.
- Yeah.
- So Kayla really, of course,
couldn'’t really remember a lot,
so she pretty much learns
what everybody else says,
and she wants a perfect picture
of her parents.
And I think that this person,
whoever it may be--
she'’s painting this rainbow
and getting Kayla excited.
And then maybe she has
some bad intentions
to suddenly tell Kayla
about how bad her
daddy really is,
or either one of her parents.
That'’s why I say I'’ll never
talk bad about her mom.
- Is that something that,
you know, as a family,
you'’ve all intentionally
kept from her?
- Yeah, I think intentionally.
We don'’t talk bad.
- Have you guys really
addressed all this
since it happened,
or is this kind, like,
the most you'’ve had to deal with
it since Courtney came around?
- Oh, since Courtney'’s came
around, it'’s been so tough.
You know, it brings
all the questions.
- You don'’t want whatever
is going on here
to somehow end up
drudging up...
- Yes.
- Some things that she doesn'’t
know that might really hurt her.
- And I think what might,
you know, what might drudge up
is what we'’ve tried
to hold back from her.
- You know, as a child,
my grandma kind of sheltered me
of the harsh truth
of what happened to my parents.
And, like, I never
really knew exactly
how they died,
either, until, you know,
a few years ago.
I mean, I knew
my dad killed my mom,
but I didn'’t know how.
I didn'’t know my mom
was pregnant
until, like, two years ago
or maybe three years ago.
- So you'’re probably still
half-expecting to discover--
- Something else, yeah.
- Something else.
- Come on, let'’s go back in.
- All right, thank you.
- Yeah, I appreciate and I
understand your concern.
Do you guys want to walk us out?
- Yes.
- Good to see you.
- Nice to meet you.
- And we'’ll speak to you guys
in the morning.
- Yes.
- All right, good night, ladies.
- Good night-night.
- Thank you.
- We are out of our depth.
- This is wild.
- I mean, this is something
that would be, like,
the plot of a movie.
- Well, one thing
that was interesting was,
you know, I talked to Shannon
really quickly outside.
- Yeah, yeah, what
was that all about?
- Well, she'’s worried
because there was a lot
that went on with
Kayla'’s parents
that wasn'’t so great.
And so that'’s been
kept from her,
because everyone just figured
there'’s no reason
to soil the impression
that she has of her parents
any more than it already is.
And so I think Shannon'’s
concern here is
that if this person really
does know stuff about Frankie,
then they might know things
that might really hurt Kayla.
And that'’s gonna just
sort of send her back,
and I'’m worried for Kayla.
This situation could be
the makings of something
really, really terrible.
- This is sort
of the make-or-break.
Will we immediately find out
that Courtney is a fraud,
or will we discover
there'’s more to this than
we could'’ve ever imagined?
Oh, here it is, Coffee House.
All right, ready to do
this investigation?
- If I wasn'’t ready,
would it matter?
- Nope.
- Hello.
- Hi.
- All right.
Max, have you been here before?
- Why?
- '’Cause there'’s a photo
of you over here.
It'’s weird.
- [laughing]
- I guess you were here once.
- Now come and sit down.
We'’ve got
an investigation to do.
- Okay.
- Kayla.
- Two years ago, Kayla gets
a random Facebook message
from Courtney, a woman claiming
to be in communication
with her deceased father.
- Right.
- She knows what kind
of cigarettes the father likes.
She knows how he
likes his hamburgers
with just ketchup.
- Sports teams.
- Right, the Chicago Bulls
and the Titans.
- But Courtney'’s not trying
to get any money,
not trying to use her
in any way.
The point remains.
What is Courtney'’s motive
if she is faking it?
- I don'’t know.
- So here we go.
Let'’s search
Frank [bleep] Jr.
- So right now,
we'’re typing things
to see what Courtney
could find out about Frank
via the Internet,
instead of divining it
from his dead spirit.
- Here we go.
- "Man guilty of murdering
girlfriend"--that'’s it.
- "A county jury found
Frank [bleep] Jr.
"guilty of murdering
his pregnant girlfriend.
"He admitted to fatally
stabbing Kimberly [bleep]
with more than 20 stab wounds."
That'’s crazy.
So this is a website
that says he was sentenced
to life in prison,
and he hung himself
in the state penitentiary.
Jeez.
- Okay.
She would know how he died.
- Right, she answered
grandma'’s question:
how did he die?
- I want to find out
about the cigarettes.
- Okay.
- Just type in--well,
the cheeseburger
or the cigarettes.
How would she know such a thing?
Where would that pop up?
- Our best bet right now
is to search through the photos
that Kayla'’s family has posted.
All right, so this is
Frankie'’s cousin,
who I guess also has
a Facebook account.
Right, so this is Frankie.
- Wow.
- Whoa.
All right, here'’s
another picture.
- Chicago Bulls shirt.
- Chicago Bulls shirt.
- Oh, right.
She said he loved
Michael Jordan too.
It'’s a safe bet that if someone
was a Chicago Bulls fan
in the '’90s,
they would be
a Michael Jordan fan.
And I think that'’s a Titans hat,
if I'’m not mistaken.
- It does look
like it says Titans,
but I don'’t know if I would
know that if I didn'’t know...
- No, no, right.
- To look for Titans.
- It says, like, Tans.
We still don'’t know
cheeseburger, bologna sandwich,
Marlboro Reds.
Let'’s put a pin in figuring out
how Courtney knows the stuff
that she knows
and just research
Courtney right now.
- All right,
let'’s search her phone number.
- Courtney [bleep].
- Wow.
- Got a hit for
Courtney [bleep].
- It comes back.
- Current address, Ohio.
Maybe she'’s not in Jupiter.
Maybe that'’s a lie.
- Or maybe this is where
she got the cell phone,
and she just hasn'’t
updated her address.
- Maybe.
- Why don'’t we go to Courtney'’s
Facebook page?
- Yes, please.
Courtney [bleep]
lives in Jupiter, Florida--
from Lisbon, Ohio.
- How many friends
does she have?
- 336 friends.
- That'’s kind of a realistic
amount of friends.
- Married to Dennis [bleep],
okay.
- Look, Courtney is friends
with a lot of family members.
- Families with kids.
- She'’s got pictures
of herself
through the years with her kids,
with her family.
Oh, wait, look, look.
In this picture, Alyssa says,
"My mom is so beautiful!"
- Whoa.
- And look, Courtney commented.
"It'’s the pic where
you look like Grandma."
"LOL, you look so beautiful.
Love it.
Thanks, Mom."
This is what a real
Facebook page looks like.
- Right.
Look at this.
This Eric person is commenting
a lot on Courtney'’s pic.
- Yeah, right.
- Posting things.
It looks like he knows
Courtney pretty well.
I think we should
message this guy.
It'’d be great to have a source
who can confirm that Courtney
and Dennis are real people.
- Sure.
- "Hey, Eric.
Making an episode of '’Catfish.'’"
So let'’s send
this message to Eric.
Okay, cool.
We know that from
what we can see,
Courtney is real.
If she is real, is it possible
she is genuinely channeling
Frankie'’s spirit
and has avoided
meeting Kayla maybe
because she doesn'’t want to make
a bigger thing out of this,
or she wants
to keep her distance
and not get too attached?
That'’s still a possibility.
- There'’s no way
she'’s talking to him.
She might have done
a ton of research--
looked at all
the court hearings.
- She could'’ve even
reached out to lawyers
or correctional officers
who dealt with him
when he was arrested...
- Right.
- And asked some questions
as a fake reporter.
Maybe she dated Frankie
at one point or knew him.
- Maybe on of her kids
or someone else
is using her account
to write these messages,
which is why they might not want
to video chat with Kayla.
- But why would Courtney
let somebody use her account?
- What if it'’s her daughter?
- But what'’s so frustrating
is that--
- It doesn'’t explain
her motivation.
- What are her motives?
- We don'’t know.
- We'’re just gonna have
to see what Kayla thinks.
- I'’m stumped.
- This story just keeps getting
weirder and weirder.
[dramatic music]
[rock music]
♪
- Hello.
- Hi.
- It'’s just me today.
- Okay, come on in.
- No, I'’m kidding.
- Oh, okay.
- Max is just slow.
- I almost couldn'’t see you
there with all the camouflage.
- Hey, look who'’s here.
- Look at this guy.
- This is my son Aceson
and my boyfriend Brandon.
- Wow.
Hey, Brandon, how are you? Nev.
- I'’m good.
- Good to meet you.
Look at this guy.
- Hey, Aceson.
What up, buddy?
- He likes that measuring tape.
- Oh, thank you.
Is that a gift for me?
- Wow.
- Look at him go.
He wants some.
[laughing]
- I got him, I got him,
I got him, I got him, I got him.
Yay.
- Yay. Clap and say yay.
- All right, guys, come on in.
Let'’s have a seat.
Here we go.
So it'’s gonna be really hard
for us to prove whether Courtney
is a medium or not.
- Yeah, definitely.
So the two things we thought
we can try to prove are,
is she who she says she is,
and is there any way
she could have gathered
all of the information
from the Internet
and isn'’t actually
talking to your dad?
We started with
just a general search,
and the first thing
that comes up is an article
talking about your dad
and your mom.
It talks about the police chase,
where it happened,
crashing into the--
so there are some details here.
So another thing that came up
in the Google search
was a website
that says he hung himself.
- Mm-hmm, right.
- That was the first test
she passed
was your grandmother
asking how did he die,
and here is that piece
of information.
We'’re starting to find
the pieces of Courtney'’s story
that maybe prove
that she just did some Googling
and isn'’t actually
talking to your dad.
So the next thing
we started doing
was going to Facebook
and looking at the photos
that have been posted from,
I think, your cousin'’s
account, right?
We went to his page,
and we found this.
And in this picture, Frankie'’s
wearing a Chicago Bulls shirt.
He'’s even wearing a hat
that could be a Titans hat.
So at this point,
we felt like, okay,
if she were really clever
and did her research,
I can see how Courtney could
have gathered the information
she'’s relayed to you.
But it does not
explain everything.
- How do they know about
the bologna sandwich?
How do they know about
the cheeseburgers
with no pickles and ketchup?
- So here we thought, okay,
who is this woman?
'’Cause if she'’s legit,
then it becomes a lot
easier to believe
that what she'’s saying is legit.
- Yes.
- Yes.
- So let'’s go to her page.
Everything about this page,
to us, felt very real.
- This is a real Facebook page
for a real Courtney [bleep].
Whether or not that'’s the person
you are talking to
is another question.
- Anyway, we went through
her pictures.
There'’s lots of people
making comments.
Lots of people
are tagged in photos.
But then there'’s this guy Eric
who comments on a lot
of Courtney'’s posts,
so we went to Eric'’s page
because we wanted to see
if we could find someone
who could tell us
that Courtney is a real person.
- Right.
- We sent Eric a message.
We got a message back from Eric.
- Okay.
- I just saw this with you guys.
I knew we had a message,
but I hadn'’t read it yet.
And he said,
"Hey, my name is Erica.
I'’m Eric'’s wife."
No way.
- What?
- Hmm?
- "And we share this
Facebook account.
"I'’m familiar with the show.
What can we help you guys with?"
[dramatic music]
All right, so I just
sent Eric/Erica this number,
and hopefully, they'’ll
get back to us.
At this point,
we'’re really not sure.
There'’s a lot
of evidence to show
that this woman'’s just sort of
a very sophisticated
Internet sleuth and con artist.
- She seems--
[phone ringing]
Wow, that was fast.
- Oh, that was fast.
Okay, this must be
Erica or Eric.
Hello.
- Hello.
- Yeah, hi.
This is Nev.
Who'’s this?
- Hey, Erica.
Great.
Thank you so much
for getting back to me.
We'’re just trying to find out
a little bit more
about your friend Courtney.
- Can you just tell me
how you know Courtney?
- Has she ever mentioned someone
that she speaks
to online named Kayla?
- Do you know anything
about the nature
of Courtney and Kayla'’s
relationship?
♪
- And you understand
the circumstances
under which Courtney and Frankie
are communicating?
- Does Courtney have this gift?
- [whispering]
What?
- Does Courtney have this gift?
- [whispering]
What?
- Wow.
When did she first mention
Frank to you?
- So yeah, a while ago.
- Do you understand the nature
of Frankie'’s passing
and the event--
the sort of major event
that took place
shortly before that?
- Wow.
- Hi, Erica.
It'’s Max.
- You realize how crazy
this all--I mean--
- Yeah.
In a weird way, I kind
of feel like you'’re telling me
that the Easter Bunny exists,
and that makes me--
that makes me happy.
And I want to believe
that'’s true.
- But a part of me
is pretty sure
that it'’s not true
and can'’t be true.
- Okay, well, look,
this is--you know,
the whole situation
is very emotional.
Thank you, Erica.
- Bye.
- There'’s problems for me
with both scenarios,
whether Courtney is telling
the truth, or she'’s lying.
If she'’s telling the truth,
then if God'’s real,
and he'’s really up there,
then why did he take
my parents from me?
[sad music]
♪
As a child, all I wanted
was to have my parents,
and I couldn'’t.
Why would he choose me
to do that to?
♪
Every single night,
I would pray to know
what my parents are doing--
to know, like,
if they'’re watching over me,
if they'’re protecting me.
And why can'’t I talk to them?
♪
If Courtney is lying about this,
this is gonna be so messed up--
like, completely messed up.
I'’m gonna be so upset.
♪
- Shannon,
what do you make of this?
- I'’m pretty shocked.
I was the one wanting to believe
that there'’s no way
it could be true,
I mean, at all.
Why would he attach to someone
he doesn'’t even know?
I mean, the only thing I could
get out of this--it'’s just--
I'’m shocked.
- I'’m just struck
by that phone call.
It strikes me as very unlikely
that she'’d be
playing along or lying.
What would be her incentive
or motivation to do that?
I don'’t know.
That said,
when people
want to believe things,
they believe things.
We see it on our show
all the time.
So could Courtney be
an incredibly persuasive person,
and you know,
could this be something
that she tells some friend
because she enjoys
making things up
and the fantasy of it all?
Or maybe could she be convinced
this is real herself?
I mean, at this point,
I don'’t know what to believe.
The only way to really
figure out what'’s going on here
is to find Courtney
and talk to her.
I mean, if she can sit down
in front of you
and tell you that this is real,
you know, as much as one
can prove that spirits exist,
then that'’s what we have to do.
♪
- Yeah, hi.
Is this Courtney?
- We'’re very curious
and not quite sure
what to make of all this.
- What are you thinking?
- It'’s mind-blowing, you know.
Why don'’t you hear a lot more
of people speaking
to dead people,
you know, like,
other than money?
- What other motive could
she have to do this?
- Yeah, it seems like right now
she has no motive.
- It almost seems
like exposing herself
as a medium is something
she almost doesn'’t want.
- Mm-hmm, right.
- But she would do it for you.
- Mm-hmm.
- The last sort of piece
of the puzzle for her
would be to sort of
sit down with you
and have an in-person
experience,
because in many ways, you are,
you know, the closest thing
she has now to her parents.
As a result of that,
her father'’s presence
in her life
has meant a great deal to her.
- Um, okay.
- She'’s been hanging a lot
of her hopes
and dreams on you.
What I'’d like to be able
to tell Kayla right now
is that, you know, we spoke,
and you'’re willing to,
you know, sit down with her
and meet her finally.
- What, um--
- Okay, well, then, you know,
we'’ll leave Kentucky tomorrow
and head down to Florida
and just have to see
what happens next.
- Yeah.
Okay, thank you, Nev.
- All right, bye-bye.
- Good-bye.
- Okay.
I spoke to Courtney.
She wants to meet you.
- Oh, my gosh.
- At this point,
I am speechless
in terms of where this is going
and what to believe
or not believe.
But we should get going,
you know, first thing
tomorrow morning.
- Let'’s do it.
I need answers.
I need answers so bad.
[upbeat music]
- Have you been down
to Florida before?
- Never--I'’ve never been
on an airplane before.
- We'’ve got a virgin flier.
- Wow.
Well, the good news is,
the flight will probably be
the least freaky part
of this whole experience.
- ♪ What kind of world
♪ Will there be
when I wake up ♪
- My heart is in my stomach,
completely.
- ♪ I hear you call
so far away ♪
- So you'’ve never seen
what Kentucky looks
like from the air.
- It'’s beautiful.
- ♪ And don'’t you
give up on me ♪
♪ As a dive into the dark
♪ Slip into the endless sea
- Okay, guys, Jupiter.
- I am so freaked out.
I mean, I feel like I already
know this woman,
like, from top to bottom,
but then again,
I feel like I don'’t
know her at all.
- We'’re one step
closer to the truth.
[knocking on door]
- Hello.
- Wow.
Hey, ladies.
- Whoa.
- Come in.
- Cute outfit.
- Yeah, you look so nice, Kayla.
- Thanks.
- So I told her
to text me a place.
She said, okay, "Hey,
good morning, Nev."
Okay, cool, she says,
"I can meet you around lunchtime
at DuBois Park."
- I am so nervous.
I feel like my heart'’s
all the way in my feet,
instead of just my stomach.
Inside, I just want
to believe her and,
like, give all my trust to her.
But then I'’m just like,
"I can'’t do that," you know.
- I think we have
to kind of walk in
half-expecting it
to not be true.
- Yeah.
- Well, here'’s what
we were thinking.
Today we take just Kayla
to meet Courtney,
because this is really about you
and your dad and Courtney.
Does that work for everybody?
- It'’s perfect.
- That'’s fine.
- All right, okay.
Let'’s do it.
See you later.
- All right, see you guys later.
- Bye.
- Am I dreaming right now?
- You'’re not dreaming.
This is real.
I just don'’t know
what to expect.
- I don'’t either.
This is insane.
- Well, usually this is where
we try to prepare ourselves.
I don'’t really know
what I can do to prepare you
for this one.
- Yeah.
- All right, DuBois Park.
This is it.
- This is scary.
- Let'’s do it.
[eerie music]
♪
- Can we go wait over here?
- Yeah.
♪
- I'’m so nervous.
This is gonna be, like,
a really big life-changer...
- Yeah.
- Either way it goes.
♪
- Look at this little guy.
That'’s kind of weird, right?
- I'’ve never seen them stand up
like that.
Are they supposed
to stand like that?
♪
Maybe it'’s--
I'’m not ruling anything out.
He senses something.
♪
- You don'’t know what kind
of car she drives, do you?
- This is so scary.
Is that her?
I think it is.
- Where?
- Right there.
She just came out
of the red car.
- That does look like her,
walking slowly over here.
- Oh, gosh, I'’m so nervous.
♪
[whispering]
Oh, my gosh.
Are you Courtney?
- Of course I am.
- Wow, hi.
- Hi.
- Nev.
- Nev.
You have your dad'’s eyes.
♪
Oh, you have your dad'’s eyes.
- [whispering]
Oh, my gosh.
Are you Courtney?
- Of course I am.
- Wow, hi.
- Hi.
- Nev.
- Nev.
You have your dad'’s eyes.
[laughing]
Oh, you have your dad'’s eyes.
Hi, honey.
- Are you telling the truth?
- Of course I am.
Oh, of course I am.
I would never, ever
make something up
like this that could be so,
you know, potentially hurtful.
I just--I knew
that the situation
was so strange.
You know, the more
I talked with your dad,
the more I realized, you know,
something good has to come
out of this,
and I wanted to be able
to give you that peace of mind.
I wanted to be able
to give you maybe some closure
Um, and...
[dramatic music]
♪
- There'’s so much
I want to talk to you about.
- Me too.
♪
It was so overwhelming
for me too,
for the longest time,
because I know the situation
that he was in,
and I know everything
that happened.
- How did you know about that?
- He told me.
He went through the story.
It was not something that
Frankie really wanted to happen.
I know that he feels
so much regret.
And he struggles with the fact
that his daughters
do forgive him
because he doesn'’t even think he
deserves forgiveness himself.
- So you--you'’ve never
met him in real life,
even though you grew up in Ohio?
You never crossed paths
with him in Kentucky?
- No, no, no I'’ve never--
I don'’t have any connection
with him whatsoever.
- And did you read about this,
you know,
story when it happened?
- No, this was something
that happened in
a small town in Kentucky,
and it just--there was no reason
for it to make it all the way
to northeastern Ohio news.
And to be honest with you,
I never even knew that
I had this ability.
I mean, it was so overwhelming
for me, too,
for the longest time.
When he first showed up,
I remember I was in my room,
and I was focused very much
on writing that
I was working on.
I actually fell asleep
at my laptop,
and it was just a little--
a couple hours later maybe.
I woke up,
and I remember opening my eyes.
And I could see out of
the corner of my eye,
but I didn'’t want to look,
but there was a figure
at the side of my bed,
and right then and there,
I could pick up the feelings.
He was also confused.
He was also very scared.
He did not realize
how he had gotten there.
He did not know why.
And all I could think of was,
"Well, he must need help."
- I assume
once he told you his name,
you went on the Internet
and looked him up.
- Absolutely did I get on Google
to confirm.
Am I crazy?
Did this person
in his story really exist?
Because believe me, I was
just as skeptical, completely.
There was quite a while
when I actually thought,
"What if I'’m insane?
"Like, what if I'’m,
like, schizophrenic?
What if I'’m losing it?"
- Since this started,
have you gone to any doctors
to see if perhaps you might
have a medical condition
like a schizophrenia?
- Yeah, absolutely.
I went to see a doctor,
and I don'’t have any sort
of personality disorder.
I don'’t have schizophrenia.
I don'’t have any
of the mental illnesses.
So it took me a long time
before I really realized,
no, he is real,
and I can hear him,
and I can see him.
- Like, I want to believe it
so bad.
It'’s really hard for me
to, like,
cope with all of this at once.
I just don'’t really understand
all of this, pretty much.
Like, it'’s crazy.
- It'’s not gonna help much.
- One thing that we had
some doubts about
that Kayla expressed to us was,
she had wanted to try
to meet up with you,
and you always
kind of had an excuse.
What was the real story there?
- I wasn'’t even 100% sure
if I could stand up
to my own scrutiny,
let alone
from Kayla'’s family
or Kayla herself.
I did not want anything
to hurt anybody.
- Had you looked at her
or researched the family
at all before you contacted?
- The day that I actually
decided to contact her,
I just picked Facebook,
and I was like,
"She'’s probably on Facebook."
I mean, who isn'’t?
So I just looked her up.
- Can we take a break
for two minutes?
- Sure.
♪
- I buy it.
- Yeah.
- She sold me on it.
- Which means that--
- Well, I feel like
she'’s telling the truth.
We'’ve talked to liars.
She doesn'’t strike me as a liar.
- I don'’t think so either.
We'’re way out of our league.
There is no league for this.
We just wanted to sort of--
- I just don'’t know
where I stand right now.
I want to believe her so bad,
but there'’s some things.
I know everything
about my parents.
My Aunt Shannon thinks
I'’m stupid, though.
- Oh, we don'’t think you don'’t.
- Pretty sure I already know
what she told you.
- She really didn'’t
tell us anything.
- No, like, when we
were at her house,
she kind of, like,
pulled you aside.
- Yeah, but that wasn'’t
to tell me anything.
It was--
she was more just
expressing a concern.
- Yeah, yes.
- But she didn'’t get into
any specifics with me,
so I don'’t know anything.
- If Courtney can tell me--like,
there are dark secrets
which my dad probably
would'’ve told her.
If she can tell me something
that only, like, my grandma
and family knows,
I'’ll be amazed,
but the things she'’s saying
right now are things
I already know and that
she'’s already said to me.
- But I don'’t think she'’s lying.
- Well, then I want to find out
if she knows those secrets.
- All right, so why don'’t we
just leave you guys to sit here.
We'’ll just let you guys talk.
[dramatic music]
♪
- I'’m just so emotional
right now,
'’cause you sound so sincere,
but it'’s still--like my mind is
like, "You can'’t, though."
- I know.
- And my heart and my mind
want you to be
completely telling the truth,
and but, like,
it'’s really hard for me to,
like, tell with
these kind of things,
'’cause, like, I'’ve already had
so much go on in my life.
- Honestly, Kayla, that was
why I struggled sometimes
before getting in touch with you
because I was like,
this is--
not only is this just
"are you kidding me," bizarre,
but also, I mean,
I can totally look like
just sort of some
screwball idiot.
I mean, but then the more
I thought about it,
the more, like, I can'’t deny
that this really happened.
- Can you tell me, like,
a few things that--it can--
you may think that
it'’ll hurt my feelings.
Even if it does,
I want to know.
Like, I want to know
what you know
that you might not
have told me before.
- You know, I think maybe
I didn'’t go into a lot of detail
about your dad and your mom'’s
relationship,
and he did have a lot
of animosity towards your mom.
And yes, your mom
had a different--you know,
she really made some
different life choices
that other people maybe wouldn'’t
have or could frown upon
or would think
differently about.
But inside, she--
- Like, what are you
talking about?
- Didn'’t she strip?
Did she work at a strip club?
She was, like, maybe a stripper.
♪
- Did he tell you, like,
anything else?
- I know he himself was abused.
I know there was being locked
in a room or a basement
or something about,
you know, locks.
♪
- Hold on,
I think I'’m gonna--
you'’re gonna meet again
tomorrow, right,
and talk more?
- Yeah.
- Okay, '’cause I'’m getting
really overwhelmed,
so I'’m gonna see--
go talk to them a little bit.
- Okay.
♪
- What happened?
- This woman is way too real--
way too real.
I mean, I'’m probably crazy
to you guys now,
'’cause, like, I just--I want
to completely believe her
'’cause she knows, like,
about my mom being a stripper.
She also said things
about abuse,
not just the abuse
that happened to my dad,
but I don'’t know
if Aunt Shannon told you guys
how her and my dad
would get trapped
in the basement.
Courtney just said that.
Like, she said things
that no one should know.
So unless my aunt'’s
talking to her, this woman--
she'’s got to be real.
- I'’m probably crazy
to you guys now,
'’cause, like, I just--I want
to completely believe her
'’cause she knows, like,
about my mom being a stripper.
She also said things
about abuse,
not just the abuse
that happened to my dad,
but I don'’t know
if Aunt Shannon told you guys
how her and my dad
would get trapped
in the basement.
Courtney just said that.
Like, she said things
that no one should know.
So unless my aunt'’s
talking to her, this woman--
she'’s got to be real.
- Well, look, why don'’t--
this is a lot.
- Yeah.
- Why don'’t we walk back
over there and--
- Okay.
[eerie music]
- So Kayla just was overwhelmed,
I think, with the amount
of information
that you seem to know.
So firstly, thank you
for meeting us.
As I mentioned to you, you know,
we brought Aunt Shannon with us.
We didn'’t bring her today
because we wanted
to give you guys
a chance to meet
each other first,
but she is here.
So if you'’re available tomorrow,
I think it might be great
to all get together,
so that she can hear
some of this stuff,
and if she has any questions--
if there'’s any chance
that you can talk
to Frankie tonight--
- Of course, always.
I want to make sure that I can
keep in contact with him.
- All right.
Nice to meet you.
- You too.
Thank you.
Thanks.
- All right.
See you later.
[sighs]
I mean, this is insane.
- Too insane.
- This is insane
that this woman
has very effectively
convinced you more than anybody
that she is talking
to your dead dad.
If this is some kind
of performance, like, bravo.
- I don'’t know, guys.
I believe it.
- I just don'’t understand it.
- Sometimes there are things
you just can'’t understand.
I mean, look, this was
a lot of information
to process and take in.
I thought we'’d all sleep on it,
see how we feel
about it tomorrow,
and then go meet back up
with Courtney.
- Yeah.
- All right, nap time.
[dramatic music]
- Good morning.
- Good morning.
- How are you?
- All right.
- Good.
- How was your night?
- Good.
- Good.
Good to see you this morning.
- You too.
- How are you feeling?
- I don'’t know.
Thank you.
♪
- Well,
this should be interesting.
We'’re heading
to Courtney'’s house.
- Oh, wow.
- Did you get any sleep
last night?
- Barely.
She knows so much,
and I just kept
thinking about that,
but, like, I also really
kept thinking
about how she showed no emotion.
- She showed one emotion,
and it was sort of,
like, cautious.
- But also, she'’s coming into it
knowing that we'’re not
totally believing her.
I'’m willing to give her
the benefit of the doubt
on that.
- That'’s true, but she'’s also
been talking to a dead guy
for five years.
- Right, yeah.
- So nothing about this
situation is normal.
♪
- This is so crazy that
we'’re going to her house.
- Still, none of this
feels real to me.
- Okay.
Okay, here we go, guys.
♪
Say hello.
- Hi.
[knocking on door]
It'’s a wolf pack.
♪
- Hey, Nev.
- Hi, how are you?
Good to see you.
How are you?
- Yes, you too.
Hi, honey.
- Can we all come in?
- Yes, please, come in.
- Great.
- Thank you.
- All right, well,
I don'’t know if anybody has
initial sort of thoughts or not.
Yesterday, obviously, was
pretty interesting and amazing.
- Yeah, I didn'’t know
if we were even gonna be able
to have an opportunity
to hang out,
because when I
saw you yesterday,
I was kind of, probably,
more reserved.
Actually, I was 100%
more reserved,
so I just kind of kept
all my enthusiasm inside,
and I didn'’t want
to just break down either.
I didn'’t know if that
would be more upsetting,
for you to be like,
"Why are you crying?
You'’re a fake.
You'’re a fraud."
You know, so I just thought
maybe I should just,
you know, hold it all together.
- Something we'’re pretty
curious about is,
were you able to speak
to Frankie last night?
- Yes, I was.
- Really?
- Yes.
I said, "Kayla'’s
here in Florida,"
and he didn'’t say anything.
I said, "Shannon'’s
here in Florida too."
He was very quiet.
I think there was a big part
of him that felt, like,
that you just don'’t like him,
and I don'’t think
he quite understands
why you would be here,
because he thinks
you just have--
he'’s nothing but trash to you.
You hate him.
You don'’t like him.
You have issues with him.
You never did like him.
- Oh, yeah?
- And I feel so bad.
Please don'’t attach any of my
personal opinions to this.
He literally just says--he says,
"She was a bossy bitch."
- Does that sound like something
he has said or would say?
- Yeah, yeah.
Oh, yeah, that'’s him.
- Bossy and--
- Yep, that would be him.
- Do you still feel anger
towards him?
- Well, of course.
If I didn'’t feel
anger towards him,
then it would be crazy.
Yes, I feel anger.
Why did you take such a loving,
beautiful lady
that was pregnant--
why did you take her life?
But then I can come to realize
it was mental illness.
It doesn'’t mean that
I have hate for him.
So I'’m mad
at the mental illness.
- Did he ever at one point
in time, though,
look for some sort of help?
Because he'’s mentioned
to me before
that nobody would help him.
- I mean, he had people there
as his advocate or whatnot,
and he had a special person
he really would run to.
- He torments the hell
out of her now
because she didn'’t help him.
- Who? Wait.
- Yeah, who?
- The foster--there was a mom,
a foster mom of his.
He torments the hell out of her
because she would not help him,
so he was very angry at her.
- He still does.
- Hold on.
I got questions right now.
Okay, um--
- Was it the foster mom
that he slept with?
And he was very upset.
- This is crazy.
- We don'’t know anything
about this.
- This is crazy.
Okay, he slept with one
of his foster moms.
- Who else knew that?
- Just about us and my mom.
I kind of just dismissed it,
but a long time ago, like,
six or seven years ago,
she messaged me,
saying that she'’s been
seeing my dad,
saying that she'’s been
smelling cigarette smoke
and alcohol and stuff like that.
♪
- So he can haunt people?
- That'’s an awful way
of putting it,
but if there'’s somebody
that he legitimately is really
angry or upset with,
then yeah.
- Does he--
what does he think about us?
- [laughing]
- [indistinct speech]
- He'’s here,
but he won'’t come out here.
- He'’s here right now?
- He'’s here, yeah.
- Well, what do you mean,
he'’s here,
but he won'’t come out?
- He'’s here,
but he won'’t come out,
like, into this area.
- So he'’s watching?
- He'’s here.
He knows exactly what'’s
going on, yeah.
- This episode of
"Catfish: The TV Show"
continues now.
[dramatic music]
♪
- He'’s here,
but he won'’t come out here.
- He'’s here right now?
- He'’s here, yeah.
- Well, what do you mean,
he'’s here,
but he won'’t come out?
- He'’s here,
but he won'’t come out,
like, into this area.
- So he'’s watching?
- He'’s here.
He knows exactly what'’s
going on, yeah.
- Since we'’re here,
and you say that you feel
as though Frankie
might be here as well,
why don'’t we let you guys
have some time,
because this is really
about you and your dad
and your family.
Does that work good
for everybody?
- It'’s perfect.
- All right, let'’s have a chat
in the car.
I mean, this is crazy.
How does she know
all that stuff?
- That'’s unbelievable
that she knows
about the foster mom.
- Nobody ever, ever knew
that he slept with that lady.
I mean, you could imagine
that had to be a deep secret.
- Have you, like,
asked him to come in here?
- Yeah, I did, I did.
You know what,
okay, this is really--
- That'’s amazing right there.
I got these cold chills.
Look at that.
Because I'’m not cold by far,
and I'’m just getting
these cold--everything'’s just
standing up everywhere,
so I'’m thinking
that he has to be
getting closer.
Now, that might just
be me thinking.
- Maybe--is he in here?
- Yeah.
- All right.
I guess I'’m just gonna,
like, talk out loud,
and hopefully, he'’ll
answer you back.
So he'’s, like, connecting
with you right now?
- Mm-hmm.
- Daddy, I am sorry
for everything
that you have gone through
and what has happened to you.
Even though a lot of people
don'’t and won'’t,
I forgive you.
It sucks that you'’re gone,
but I'’m not angry with you.
- He said,
"Do you miss your mama?"
- Yes.
- He wants me to tell you
that she'’s with you.
He'’s sorry that she can'’t be
with you in a better way.
I'’m sorry for what I done.
He loves you,
and he'’s proud of you.
He wishes he could
give you a hug.
He wants to know
if you guys--if you know--
I know you know this,
but he wants me to ask you
if you know that he comes
to visit at night.
- Courtney told us, yeah.
- When you come to me at night,
is it good or bad?
- Well, this isn'’t gonna
ultimately end up positive,
because I didn'’t
come to see you.
I hated you,
but that'’s kind of changed.
- This is unbelievable.
I mean, like,
I believe you,
but, like, it'’s just--
this is so crazy,
but it'’s not at the same time.
- Now that we met,
do you think that we
could become closer?
And I mean,
I know it'’s gonna
be a hard decision,
and you'’re not just gonna say,
"Oh, yes, come down with
your family tomorrow," but--
- Yes, I will.
- Oh, you would be wi--
- Yes, absolutely.
- I mean, like, just not saying
that just right now,
but you would be willing
to let us come around?
- Absolutely.
That'’s what I want.
We were brought together
for a reason.
- Hi, guys.
- Hi.
- Mind if we come in?
- Yeah, no, come on in.
- How is it going?
- Crazy.
She knows so much stuff.
Well, I'’m totally, I guess, nuts
to a lot of people out there,
but I believe her.
There is no way I can'’t.
- There'’s things
that has been said today
that nobody could
or should know,
so I'’m kind of split,
because that goes
against my religious views,
but I'’m getting pulled
more this way that I believe.
- I'’m so thankful
that we were
finally able to meet,
and I really think that
we will be able to give Frankie
that resolve that
he so desperately needs.
- I don'’t know what else
there is for us,
so unless you need to reveal
that this is
all some crazy trick
you guys have been
playing on us--
- I would not do that.
- I don'’t know
who to believe anymore.
- [laughing]
- ♪ Leave a light on
- All right,
we'’ll see you guys.
- ♪ Leave a light on
- Thank you.
- See you later, Courtney.
- ♪ Leave a light on
when you go ♪
♪
♪ Leave a light on
- I don'’t know, guys.
I don'’t know.
I don'’t know what to say.
- I don'’t know either.
- What just happened?
- It'’s crazy.
- I think I turned psychotic,
because I believe her.
I think that just happened.
- I mean, I believe her too.
- I mean,
it really is unbelievable.
- Maybe it'’s a real thing.
♪
for behind-the-scenes footage
and see how the crew
grappled with the mysteries
of this episode.
- You already know
that Tara lied to you.
- Yeah.
- What?
- Now we have a new suspect:
the victim.
- What the hell is going on?
- She doesn'’t seem like someone
that would whip up
so much drama.
- Now I don'’t know
who to trust.
- If there'’s anything
you want to tell us,
let us know.
1499
01:02:06.