Burden of Proof (2023): Season 1, Episode 4 - Episode #1.4 - full transcript

I didn't get your name.

Um, Michael.
You can call me Michael.

My name is
Doctor Michael Gellis.

- We're just gonna take our time.
- Okay.

So, um,
let's do the first phase, okay?

Put that drink down.

Go on.

Yeah. It was...

All right.

Yeah.

- Good.
- And...



What's happening?

Will you please stand?

Stephen and Karen
share their joy

and celebrate their love.

Marriage
is a gift of God in creation,

through which husband and wife
may know the grace of God.

It is given that as man
and woman...

- Stephen and his girls.
- ...grow together in love and trust,

they shall be united
with one another in heart,

body and mind
as Christ is united

with his bride...

I'm glad you did, too.

Yeah, I'm still
hanging out in ambiguity.

I mean, clearly,
I think law enforcement knows



what this has done

to my relationship
with my mother.

And I think
if they had information

that would rule out my
mother's involvement in any way,

that they should share that
with me.

If James City County
has information,

just tell me.
Just tell me upfront.

Tell Margie upfront.

You know,
don't keep a family wondering.

'Cause all you're doing
is devastating a family

and tearing a family apart.

I just think they're afraid
to say, "Yeah, hey,

we blew this case
from the very beginning."

Hey, Jake. Stephen.

- Yes.
- How are you?

All right.

Good.
Hey, a quick question.

I'm trying to figure out...

Um, do you guys believe
that my mother's

tellin' the truth
about what she knows?

Right.

Right. And is this like
forensic stuff?

Is it handwriting?
Can you give me some idea

as to what...

It's more handwriting stuff?

All right.

Okay. All right.
Talk to you soon, Jake.

See ya. Bye.

So, I called Jake Rice
at the police department.

He said that they had sent
some things

to the lab, some handwriting.

- Um...
- But he hasn't told you

- what's in there yet.
- He has not.

- Well, I hope that...
- So...

...they don't just let you
sit there and think and think

and think,
that they do somewhat give you

some knowledge
of what's going on.

This is just

my mother's handwriting analysis
that was done

by the Department
of Forensic Science.

Handwriting analysis
of my father,

they ruled him out
as the writer of the note.

But it was inconclusive
as it relates to my mom.

I interpreted that
as an indication

that she wrote the note.

Right, it was inconclusive
that she wrote it,

but it was always said
with the context

of, "She likely wrote it."

Uh, we are getting ready to call
Sheila Lowe,

who is a...

I guess a graphologist,

sort of a handwriting
examiner expert.

Just trying to learn about it.
Oh. Hi, Sheila.

- Hi, there.
- How are you?

I'm good.
How are you?

I'm doing great. Thank you.

I guess you got the note
that was left

when she disappeared.

Yes.

So you had samples
of Kerry Hendrix,

his handwriting,
her ex-boyfriend,

Tony, and my mother
and my father?

The police had somebody
look at this a long time ago

that ruled out my father
as the writer of the note.

I strongly agree
that your father,

he's not capable of writing
the note.

His handwriting is so rigid
and so extremely linear

that it would be
almost impossible for him

to write in a rounded fashion
like this.

Do you think
that my mother wrote it then?

- No.
- No?

I don't. The sample
that I looked at,

that was close
to the time of writing...

Well, I'm looking
at the individual letter forms

and at the spacing,
which is the most important,

it's so unconscious
that it's not something

that the person
is going to think to change.

It seems to me that her spacing
is more compact.

- The words are written closer...
- Hm-mm.

...than in the note which is,
you know,

it has quite wide spacing.

Yeah, quite wide spacing.

One of the reasons
why I ruled it out

was 'cause of the way
she made the Fs.

They were very sharp and pointed
on the top.

- That seems like a strong idiosyncrasy.
- Right.

That's not at all in the note.

I looked at the handwriting
of the man

- that she babysat for...
- Kerry Hendrix. Yeah.

Yeah. But, um,

again, I couldn't find
any evidence.

Now, Tony,
I had pretty much ruled out.

And then I saw one sample
that put him back in the frame

to some degree.
That was this one.

That was the only one
that was large and rounded.

But there are still
some characteristics

that were quite different.

And there's not
the kind of evidence

that I would look for to say
that he did it.

But it was interesting
that he had the capability

to write this way.

Huh.

- It's not like DNA.
- Right.

It's opinion.

Some mysteries
are just unsolvable.

Right.

So what'd you find out?

Uh, Jack, Jake,
whatever his name is...

Jack from James City County
that y'all talked to.

He said there was
a piece of information

in the file

that got overlooked.

And it was about
a one-armed guy,

Charlie May.

And I said,
"I've never heard of the guy."

So, I still don't know
who it is.

An investigator
from James City County

told me that this Charlie May
had a relationship

with Tony Tobler.

Who's this Tony person?

Tony Tobler
was Jennifer's boyfriend. Mm.

Well,
what does that make you think?

Makes me think like,

A, who in the hell
is this Charlie May...

...and what's really going on?

And did Tony Tobler...

Because I still in...
In my mind think

Tony Tobler has something to do
with it.

I... I'm just being
flat-out honest.

The police mentioned

the name of Charlie May
to your dad.

Do you know who that is?

We've been researching him.

I've never...
I don't know who that...

- Yeah.
- I have no idea

- who that is.
- So we've been,

like, anything like that,
we've been trying our best to...

Was he a friend
of Jennifer's? Was he a...

He was apparently
a friend of Tony's

that was an older gentleman.

- And so...
- Like how old?

And he apparently has one arm.

So, we've been researching...

...trying to figure out, like,
who this person might be.

- All right.
- If there is

a significant finding,

is he required
to tell the family?

Yeah. I don't know.

Yeah, there's something...

He's got something brewing.

I just feel like
they have found something.

- Good morning.
- Morning.

Y'all look like good mornings.

It turned into something
that you didn't expect.

- Amen to that.
- Mm-hmm.

- And this...
- I don't think

that our department expected

the case to do probably,
you know.

Not to say that it...

At one point in time,
it was honed in on one place.

So now, if new information comes
that shows difference

than Mom and Dad,
we can't ignore it.

I will not answer that question
at this point in time.

I've met with Stephen.
I've told him. I mean,

let... let us do our job,

and once we come to stuff
that can be released,

he will know.

Is there anything
you can tell us

about the special grand jury?

I don't know
what you're talking about.

I can't speak of anything
at this time.

- Hello?
- Hey.

So, you know,
I sent Jake a text again

this morning. He called me back
and he heard back from the lab.

And he was asking me if I had
or my mother would have,

any other writings of Jennifer.

Ideally,
some handwriting samples

of Tony.

But it sounded like

they had two smaller samples
of Tony's handwriting,

and that the analysis
of that handwriting

does not rule him out
as the writer of the note.

And then that's why he called
looking for other samples

of Tony's handwriting
from the high school days.

I don't know if my mother
would have samples

of Tony's handwriting
from that period of time.

This call is being recorded.

Hey, I just want
to let you know that I called

your mom and she has a box
of notes

that Jen was passing
back and forth.

But it's up in her attic.

She said I could come by
and pick it up.

- So, I'm gonna go do that.
- Okay, great.

- Hey, Margie.
- Hey.

Oh, right here th...

Yeah, the Puma shoebox.

The Puma shoebox. Okay.

Okay.

That right there is from Tony.

- It is.
- Mm-hmm.

- All right. Thank you.
- Bye-bye.

- Okey-doke.
- Okay.

Oh, boy.

Yeah, I think
that one is from Tony.

Holy cow.

Okay, so we can make
a Tony stack.

This is a Tony.

It looks like my sister wrote
a brief note.

Tony.

Tony.

Tony.

Yeah, this is it.
This is all of it.

There's dozens of them here.
Jake's gonna be really happy.

But he did tell you
that they're looking at Tony.

Tony. Yeah, he did say that.

I wonder why this guy...

Why Charlie May?
What, I mean...

What's the, you know...

What is the connection?

- So we do know a few things...
- Mm-hmm.

...that we haven't
said anything about.

But they did have
a special grand jury.

And we went. We saw Tony

and Charlie May go in.

- When was this?
- This was back in August.

I wish somebody would have
told me that.

Hello?

Hey, Stephen, it's Jake.

So, we got this box of letters
from Tony.

There's, like, probably 50
of them here.

Do you want me to send them
all to you?

- Yes.
- Do you want

- a few of them?
- All of them.

Well, I'm gonna overnight it
to you.

- You'll have this tomorrow.
- Okay.

- Question. Um...
- Uh-huh?

What... what changed,

or what did you guys
find that...

is leading you towards Tony?

Because I'm trying
to process all this,

- you know, Jake.
- Well, and it's... like,

I met with you
when we had found that file.

And in there,
there was some people's names

that hadn't ever been, you know,
talked to or anything else.

So that led to me
actually finding an individual

that provided information
that led me, even more,

towards where I'm going now.

It's 'cause it's very hard.

We don't have a body
or a place to say,

"Hey, this was a crime scene
30 years ago."

You know, if I send all this
and it comes back and says,

"Definitively, this individual
has wrote the letter,"

then somebody needs to be...
Have some explaining.

Okay.

All right. Well,
I'll get this to you.

Um, you'll...
You'll have it tomorrow.

All right.
I appreciate it, Stephen.

Okay, thank you.

- All right, thank you.
- Okay.

- Bye.
- Bye.

"February 24th, 1986.

I love you so dearly.
I want to go shopping with you

so I can buy you a promise ring.

I seriously do 'cause I love you

and I would not mind
marrying you."

"March 24th, 1986.

I want to fall asleep with you
sometime soon.

If me and you ever have a child,
I think we will, I hope so.

If it's a little girl,
I want it to look like you."

"June 6th, 1986.

As long as we work out
our problems,

we will stay together.
Unless you cheat on me,

or I cheat on you.

Don't think nothing like that
will happen though,

'cause we love each other.

And you know I would kill you
and whoever it was."

So this one right here,

Stephen, this is September 24th.

So this was after they broke up,
after the abortion.

"How are you doing?
You seem to be in a good mood.

I tried calling you last night.

I called several times
and let it ring

about four times,
but you never called back."

This is a packet.

We just got Jennifer's notes.

In those notes, I read a part

where she describes
a sexual act that she...

- Mm-hmm.
- ...did with him.

"October 11th, 1986."

- Right after the abortion.
- When'd she have the abortion?

I think it was in August of '86.

Ah-ha! "My arms have marks
on them,

not to mention bruises
from where you threw me

on the bed. Hope you're happy.

Stop throwing me around
like some dumbass whore.

Call me back and call me
when you say you are..."

"I told you I didn't care

if it was two in the morning.
Just call me back

when you say you are.
Stop lying to me.

I know you couldn't stay away
from Cori for one freaking day.

Now, I see

why you didn't want me
to go to the mall with you.

'Cause you had already planned
to pick up Cori."

August, she has the abortion.

- Mm-hmm.
- October '86,

she's still fooling around
with Tony.

He's given her bruises,
from this letter.

- She still loves him.
- But he's with Cori.

But with Cori.

And then in February, 1987,
she goes missing.

Mm-hmm.

So if they were still together

in October,

were they still together
in February?

- Sneaking around behind Cori's back.
- Right. Right.

Were they still sneaking around?

Because that's what
they were doing...

- Yeah.
- ...behind Cori's back.

I didn't know any of this.
I was gone.

I didn't know any of it.

As things change in your life

and your direction
goes somewhere else,

you don't think about it.

After a certain amount of time,
it's just... just...

It's not there.

You know,
as far as you thinking about it,

or as often as you should,
you know,

and it's actually something
that, sadly, you get to a point

where you just...
Kind of just forget about it.

Say that again.

Did I think
that other people thought

I had something to do with it?

Not until years later.

I'm talking to a police officer
that her dad...

you know. My guess was like,
"Well, talk to him."

You know and my response was,
um, I think I was...

16 years old.

Okay. You know,
what would I have to do with it?

From the breakup?

I mean, how long do y'all think
that her and I dated?

'Cause it wasn't long.

I mean it wasn't like years
or nothin'. So...

And what interactions
have you had with...

It has thrown him
for a huge loop

and made him question
everything.

It's been torture.

Just to be blunt.

I think he wants to understand
and believe

that maybe this new turn
that the case and the story

has taken is true.

He... I think he really wants it
to be true.

To me,

there's some...
Still some really weird things

that if your child goes missing,

why would you make something up,

or why... I just...

From everything that
I have seen and read,

it still raises red flags
with me.

I do not think
he will ever reconcile

with his father. Um...

But I do... He is talking
more and more about recon...

You know, reconciling
with his mother

and showing compassion.

He keeps using that word
over and over again to me.

- Compassion.
- Compassion.

Uh, this is...

Like, I guess the, um,
Tony to Jennifer.

This is from a note
dated April 11th, 1986.

"I'm glad you called me
last night at Charlie's.

I'm glad we had that talk

that we had.
I love you so much."

"February 3rd, 1986.

Dear Jennifer, how are you?
I'm terrible.

Right now I'm over at Charlie's.

I tried to call you,
but you were babysitting."

"April 11th, 1986. It's 12:30.

I just spent the last hour
and a half

talking to Charlie out
in the woods.

Jennifer, I've cried
my eyes out tonight.

I've cried about Charlie..."

Here's a bunch of notes
that references Charlie.

So, clearly,
they knew each other, right?

Or my sister knew Charlie

and I don't know
if he helped them...

Did you ever see Charlie?

- I don't know.
- You know,

when we first started...

- Sure.
- ...talking, everybody's focus,

- including mine...
- Yeah.

...was, like, zeroed in
on your father and your mother

because nobody knew
who this Charlie was...

- Right.
- ...until he shows up at the Grand Jury.

Never... never met him,
never seen him.

- Okay.
- Never heard his name

until relatively recently.

And we're producers.

The first that we heard
of Charlie was through your dad.

So, then we found,
like, four or five Charlie Mays

in the South that fit
that age group.

He popped up in the system again

because he had
an assault charge,

and so it allowed us
to find him.

Okay.

Well...

I'd love to...
I'd love to talk to Charlie May.

We have the number
of the woman who operates

- that homeless shelter.
- Mm-hmm.

Eight-hour drive, it says,
from Charlotte.

How ya doin'?
Charlie? All right, come on in.

How ya doin', sir?

I'm doing great, how are you?

Come on in and have a seat.

- Good morning, sir. I'm Charles.
- Good morning.

- I'm Stephen Pandos.
- Steve?

I'm Jennifer's brother.

Oh, I'm sorry for your loss.

- I hope we can...
- Thank you.

- ...get this figured out.
- Yeah, well. Me too.

I'd like to

have some justice for Jennifer
and some peace for my mother.

- Yes, I'm sure.
- Yes.

How did you meet Tony?
Uh, you know?

I was out on the railroad tracks

one day and, you know,
doing my martial arts workout

on the tracks
and smokin' a joint,

and Tony was walkin' out
and comin' up to.

We sit there,

- and we got high together.
- Mm-hmm.

You know, once in a while
he'd asked me to get him

a bag of weed
and I'd get him some,

or I'd ask him to get me...
Ask if he'd give me a bag.

Yeah. So, you know,
that was just more or less...

We was more or less just...

associates smoking weed.

What did the police ask you?

Basically, if I helped her
get away,

- leave from the house, and...
- Mm-hmm.

...I've never done that.

You knew that
she was Tony's girlfriend?

Right, exactly.
'Cause he introduced her

when I first seen him
and her up at the store.

"This is
my girlfriend-slash-fiancée."

Okay.

And then I didn't see him
for such a long time.

You know, the day he called,
it shocked me.

He says, "I got a question
for you." I said, "Okay."

And he says, uh...

"How do... If you...

If you had to get rid
of a dead body,

what would...
How would you do it?"

I just simply said,
"Well, just take...

Put 'em in a bucket of acid,"

you know?

It would dissolve the body
or whatever.

- Mm-hmm.
- But, uh...

he said,
"Where would I get a barrel?"

I said, "I guess off
an old construction site,

I don't know.
Just an old burn barrel."

- Sure.
- "What about acid?"

I said, "You've got all these

different places
building houses.

They got to clean the brick..."

- Mm-hmm.
- "...after they put a brick up.

The brick's normally cleaned
with muriatic acid.

And that's what...
They're in gallon jugs, Jim.

That's what you're gonna
have to get."

"Oh, okay, okay." You know.

He had a little anxiousness
in his voice.

Mm-hmm.

He called me back and told me,

"Hey, that little problem
I said... I told you I had,

don't worry, I got...
It's taken care of."

"Uh-huh?"

I didn't understand
what he was talkin' about.

He says, "About needing
to get rid of a dead body."

And I said, "Oh, yeah. Okay."

And I just kinda laughed
about it,

and said,
"Right Tony. Yeah, sure."

- Mm-hmm.
- You know?

I thought he was joking.

It took him two or three times
before he'd say anything.

He told me he got in a fight
with your sister.

That he'd hit her.
She fell and hit her head.

And...

she was dead.

I didn't think
what he was saying was true.

- Right.
- So, I didn't say nothin'

to the police or anything
'cause I didn't know.

But I didn't think he was joking
when the cops come out

talking to me,
saying I had something

to do with something.

Did you tell the police
in... in 1987

that... that Tony had called you?

I don't believe I did. I just...

Everything was so crazy.

- Yeah. Yeah.
- And...

...it's still crazy.

So the cops showed up
and started interviewing you

in 1987.

Browbeat me.

Took a... took more or less,
you know,

"You're dead. You're a goner.

You're guilty. You did this.
You did..."

"No. I did not do that."

What were this and that?

That you would have, like,
went into the neighborhood...

- Yeah.
- ...that you went to her house,

- and helped her leave and...
- Right. Exactly.

I've told time and time again,

over and over,

I did not take Jennifer
from your home,

or help her leave that area.

And I did not have anything
to do with

this murder,
or whatever you wanna call it,

which it could...
It could've been an accident.

- I don't know. I wasn't there.
- Sure. Yeah. Right

He did say that he used a barrel
of acid?

He just said
the problem was taken care of.

- So, you don't know how he took care of it?
- I don't know how he done it.

Like, is there anybody else

that you may have spoken to
back then and said,

- "Tony called me and told me?"
- No.

Nope.

Do you have
any further questions

- for me?
- I don't, Charlie.

I know it's probably unorthodox,
but may I pray with you?

Sure.

Most Gracious Heavenly Father,
Lord God, Jehovah,

I ask you, Father God,

place your hands
upon the Pandos family.

Give them Jennifer.

Lord, I ask you
to take and bring her up

for the family to have closure.

Put your loving arms
around the family.

I lift them up to you, Lord,
to protect.

I lift them up to you
to give the answers.

It's just hard to hear.

Really hard to hear.

So, how reliable
do you think Charlie May is?

Charlie has his issues.

But he doesn't have any reason
to make it up.

It does cause me concern

that in 1987,

when they interviewed him
initially,

that he didn't say a thing
about any of this.

Certainly disappointing
that he didn't.

What are the reasons
why he didn't? I don't know.

None of them could be very good.

Yeah, that story,
like if you are sitting there

as a prosecutor with that being
the piece of evidence

that you have...

You'd want more.

Over the last week, there's been
one or two moments where...

the shame of thinking
that my parents were involved

in this moral atrocity
was lifted.

But those moments, you know
all that is...

...it's replaced by, you know,
an extreme guilt.

Right? For all that I have
denied my mother,

and her relationship
with Elizabeth

and Anna Catherine,
and theirs with her.

And it's no one's fault
but my own

that I have caused so much hurt
on top

of an already tragic situation.

And that's crushing.

What's the next step
with your mom do you think?

You know,
get some more information

from Jake if I can.

Um...

And then...

And then figure out the things
with my mom.

Everybody needs your mom.

I think she needs you, too.

Yeah.

What do you want from Stephen?

Do you want, like,
an apology or...

No, no apology.

What he did, he...

And what he's doing...

about the investigation...

just fills my heart.

But...

it breaks my heart
at the same time

that he has...

...taken the attitude with me
that he has.

But, no.

He doesn't need to
walk in the door

and say, "Mom, I'm sorry."

Um...

All he needs to do
is walk in the door.

That's all. That's all.

This call is being recorded.

I spoke to Jake
for just a second.

And he made reference to...
My sister wrote Tony a note,

I don't know
if it was in a notebook,

the night before
she disappeared.

Huh.

Jake didn't know
if she gave it to him.

If she, you know,
read it to him or whatever.

And how does he know
that it was written that night?

The night
before she disappeared?

- I guess it was dated.
- Yeah.

- Hello.
- Hey, Jake. Stephen.

- Hey.
- How are ya?

All right.

So, the note that I've got,
the copy of it

that I'd found in the file,

it's dated 2/9 of '87
at 7:42 p.m.

- Okay.
- So, this says,

"Tony. Hey, what's up?

Like, I'm kind of imagining
you're at Cori's right now.

Anyways, I just wrote
to tell you

that you should not have
lied to me.

I'm not yet sure
what I'm gonna do to hurt you

the way that you hurt me
by lying to me.

But I can assure
it won't be pleasant.

I think I'm gonna do
you a very, very big..."

"I think I'm going to do you

a very, very big favor.

Just don't ask what
'cause I'll only tell you

when I feel the time is right.

But I will tell you this.

It will do you a very big favor,
at least in my eyes,

which could be deceiving you.

Well, just thought I'd say

you'll pay for lying to me.
Jennifer."

As she's writing that,

that was the night before.
I talked to her that night.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

If Jennifer was about to... to...
To bust him for a lie,

for a big lie where he...

Tony had something to lose,

it's not that far of a stretch
that something bad

- and unintentional happened.
- Right. Right.

- I did tell the... Jake...
- Mm-hmm.

...she would've walked out
of the house

for only one person
and that was Tony

who could've gotten her
out of the house.

All right.

But it's just...

all these emotions that, like,

I remember going through then
of being mad

and if she really did run away,
and then you learn...

And then you learn that it has
nothing to do with you...

- Had nothing. Exactly.
- ...and how you internalize it,

and how you think about it.

- It's crazy.
- You know, how you...

How people experience things
and reality may...

- Mm-hmm. Yeah.
- ...indeed be

the 180-degrees opposite

- of... of what they think.
- Right.

The way that it reads,

it points
to that individual doing it.

So, the probable is
more of a not,

- "Okay, we're at 50/50."
- Yeah.

It suggests that he wrote it.

You've been patient
for a long time.

You just gonna have to be
patient for a little bit longer.

This is the affidavit

for a search warrant
for Tony's DNA. It's...

I think 13 pages,

and then Attachment A
is the affidavit

from the police department.

The affidavit just spells out
probable cause

for the search warrant.

Okay. There we go.

Thirteen. It's...
That's six dollars and 50 cents.

- Thank you so much.
- No problem. Have a good day.

Thanks. You, too.

So you know, this says,
"On 10/24, 2017,

Investigator Rice interviewed
Charlie May

at the Crestview,
Florida Police Department.

Charlie May advised that
Tony called him and asked,

'How you would get rid
of evidence

if you'd killed someone?'

Charlie told Tony
he would put them in acid.

Charlie states that
it wasn't until later

that Tony told him that
he had killed his girlfriend.

Charlie stated that
Tony told him he had a fight

with her over getting pregnant

and her parents are going to
press rape charges."

Charlie did not tell us all this

when we were in Florida.

- Yeah, he did.
- He didn't say anything

about rape charges.

Well, no, he didn't say anything
about that.

But, um...

But he talked about the barrel
and he talked about acid.

So, it appears
that Tony told him

that he'd stole some acid
from a construction site

with a metal barrel.

"Tony told Charlie
that he had placed her

in the barrel and filled it
with acid.

Charlie states
Tony would never say

what he did with the barrel,
but Charlie advised him

there was some low-lying area
off the right side

of the railroad tracks
that runs behind

Windy Hill Trailer Park."

Because in this one,

he says the barrel of acid story
did happen.

And when we talked to him,
he said he wasn't sure

if it happened.

Well, right. He told...
But, yeah,

what he said in Florida was that

that's what he told Tony
he would do.

Mm-hmm. And this is...

In this account,
he says that's what he...

- That's what he did.
- That's what Tony did.

Mm-hmm. Right.

I don't know that that's just...

material in my mind. So...

Hi, Wendi.

Hey, Stephen. How are you?

- Great. How are you?
- Great.

So, you got this
search warrant and affidavit?

I did. Yes.

So, what do you think
after reading this?

So, yeah, I left the department,
um, in 2019,

and I'm retired from there now.
So, I still talk with, um,

a few people
with the department.

I have a few different opinions.

You know, the first being,
uh, Charlie May

as being reliable.
They did a few interviews

- with him in Florida.
- Yeah.

You know, I was told that
he gave,

I think, four different
written statements.

So, to me,
that's a little concerning,

- just from...
- Mm-hmm.

...you know, from the standpoint

of getting a valid statement
from someone.

- Mm-hmm.
- You know, as far as

the information
that was provided,

I find it hard to believe
that a 17-year-old, um,

would know where to find
this type of stuff.

And a 17-year-old
being able to kill someone,

hide the body,
never tell anybody

that tells someone else,
and then the body's never found.

A hundred pounds of weight

can be a lot

when you start mixing
a lot of liquid in it.

My understanding is they said
it was a 55-gallon drum.

That filled with liquid
is heavy.

That'd be hard for any...
Any one person to deal with.

- Exactly.
- Yeah.

From reading this attachment
for the search warrant,

it seems like the whole case
that they have against Tony

is based
on what Charlie May is saying

until you get to
the last paragraph on that page,

where they talk
about the handwriting.

You know, so there's just...

There is a lot of doubt still.

You know, what I had learned
from this discovery

- of the original case file...
- Mm-hmm.

...definitely gave me
reason to rethink,

you know, the case
against your mom and dad.

It definitely gave me doubt.

You know, but the same thing
goes for Tony.

Uh, yeah.
Like, for a decade,

everybody was telling me,
"It was your parents." Right?

You know, I can't tell you
how awful it feels

to accuse people
of killing their kid

and then find out
that there's information

that was there
in the very beginning

that would have helped
that not happen.

Wendi could get pretty nasty.

I mean...

downright disrespectful
and rude.

But, I guess,
that's all part of the game.

You don't sit down
and ask polite questions

when you want something.

You know, it's...

destroyed my relationships
with my son and my sisters.

Really.

I don't see one.

I really don't.
It's been too long.

Your call has been forwarded

to an automated voice
messaging system.

Good morning.
It's Stephen Pandos.

Um, just calling to see, uh,

if you have an update
from the lab?

I guess,
it's been ten weeks today.

Uh, if you could please
give me a call

when you get a minute,

I'd appreciate it.
Thanks very much.

Since January of 2009.

Fourteen years.
Thirteen and a half years or so.

And been filming
for the documentary,

seven years.

- With you.
- Yeah, for sure.

Yeah. I mean,
maybe it probably, you know,

uh, in the early days,
when this was a way for me

to perhaps, you know, um...

you know, exercise a lot
of anger towards my father,

you know, about growing up.

Can we talk
about the DNA testing?

It seems like such a long shot
for them to extract DNA

from a note that was left
in Jennifer's room 35 years ago.

And for 20 of those years,

you know, it was
in your mom's possession.

And, you know, other people

surely touched the note.

But what if it comes back

and it's not a match?
What does that say?

Nothing really.

I mean, 'cause again...
'Cause a lot of people

have had their hands
on that note.

At this point,
is it important for you to know

what happened to Jennifer?

Jennifer's truth deserves
to be told, whatever it is.

- Hello, Stephen.
- How are you?

- Good to see you.
- Good to see you.

Come on back.

We've been on the phone
so many times,

I'm not even sure,
have you ever been here?

- I don't think you have.
- I've never been. Not in your office, no.

- So, you wanna just take a seat?
- Yep.

You know, I guess
we're still waiting

- for an update from the lab.
- Yes, uh...

And from what I understand,
it's been a long time.

It has been a lot longer
than we anticipated.

I do know
that you've been frustrated,

uh, with, kind of,

our inability to give you
a lot of updates on this case.

And I would love
to be able to tell you more

about where we are looking,
but that's where we get

into that balance
of I've got to be fair

to both the investigation
and to any individual

- that...
- Yeah.

...could potentially be charged
in the future.

I just can't talk with you

about where that investigation
is going now.

- I can't imagine what you've been going through.
- Yeah.

I have nothing but sympathy
for everything

that you and your family
have gone through

because of this.

I would like nothing
more than to be able

- to deliver you that truth...
- Right.

...in the courtroom.

But I also don't want to say

that I...
I know for a fact

that we are eventually
going to be in a position

that we can charge somebody.

This is so different
than anything

that we've ever handled,
anything that I've ever handled.

Because we didn't have
that original file, you know.

We came to some bad conclusions

because of
imperfect information.

And we've probably tiptoed
around something

that I think I should
have made more clear years ago.

And that is

the information
that we have now.

All right.

Your parents are not suspects
in this case.

- They were at the time...
- Right.

...but this office

is not looking at your parents,
either your mother

or your father,
as being involved

with your sister's
disappearance.

We do not suspect
that your dad did this...

- Yeah.
- ...and we do not suspect

that your mother
had any knowledge of it,

- or had any role whatsoever.
- Right. Right.

I feel like I have to, um...

you know, to restart...

you know, that relationship.

And so I have to do it
and I have to try.

I wanna go and I wanna talk
to my mother about it,

and, you know, I need
to do that in... in private.

What I'm gonna tell my mom

is that the police
are now looking at Tony.

But I don't know the outcome...

and I'm probably just going
to leave it at that.

Um, I'm not gonna get into
any of the specifics

of what Charlie said.

That's too much.

I have to use
the lessons learned

from this whole experience
to have a better relationship.

I feel in my heart
that that's what I have to do.

She needs a relationship
with me,

she needs a relationship
with her granddaughters,

she needs that.

- Hi, Mom.
- Hey, babe.

- Good to see you.
- You, too.

This call
may be recorded or transcribed.

Hey there.

...you need to understand
how I feel about him.

Yeah.

What part of "get off
the goddamn phone"

- don't you understand?
- Fine, Ronald.

I'll get off the goddamn phone.

Get out of my room!
That's all I'm asking. Just go.