Brainwash (2010–…): Season 1, Episode 7 - Født sånn eller blitt sånn? - full transcript

Hjernevask (Brainwash)

What determines the development of our personality?

Mao Zedong famously said "It is on a blank sheet that the most beautiful poems are written."

In this world nothing is impossible.

Nature or nurture?

We've all been this small.

But what do we bring with us into this world?

Is a lot of stuff pre-programmed inside us?

Or do we arrive like a book with blank pages?

-Is this a girl?
-Yes.

-What's her name?
-Emilie



She's born five weeks prematurely.
So she's small.

Is Emilie born with a gender identity?

That is a feeling of being a girl?

Or is that something that she'll learn eventually?

The feeling of being a boy or the feeling of being a girl.

Where does it come from?

From your parent and the
environment and everyone you meet.

Joergen Lorentzen
Gender researcher
From your parent and the
environment and everyone you meet.

And what you see around you.
The images of men and women.
Joergen Lorentzen
Gender researcher

And what you see around you.
The images of men and women.

So you say that gender identity
is not something you are born with?

-It's something you learn.
-Yes.

Some researchers have a more biological view.

I say that children are born with
an obvious biological disposition-



Trond H. Diseth
Chief consultant
and child psychiatrist
I say that children are born with
an obvious biological disposition-

I say that children are born with
an obvious biological disposition-

-in relation to gender identity and gender behaviour.

And then the environment, culture,
values, expectations around us-

-enhance or control it.

Born that way, or become that way?
Nature or nurture?

These two ways of understanding
humans collide in these programs.

Most people seem to believe
than the truth lies in between.

But many of the scentists I've spoken to-

-are totally uninterested in
what we might be born with.

I asked professor Nissen of
what his thoughts were-

-on biological perspectives on homosexuality.

I think this is something that
doesn't have to occupy my time.

It couldn't be relevant?

Not for the kind of research I do.

What about professor Giertsen?
She studies male and female violence.

If you raised males and females the same way,-

-would they become equally violent?

My problem is that I don't find
that to be an important question.

To the question of biological perspectives on-

-why male and female jobs differ,
chief researcher Egeland said:

There's no room for biology there for me.

I think social sciences
should challenge thinking-

-that bases itself on that
the differences between humans...

...are biological.

A scientist not only has to
find out what he has to know,-

-but also must find out what
he doesn't have to know.

No too many people know that.

How common is this attitude?

Have I just talked to peculiar scientists?

-Hi! How nice! Harald here.
-Tom Colbjoernsen.

Colbjoernsen is the dean at Oslo Business Institute.

For many years has worked as a social scientist.

My experiment with social studies when I work with it,-

-is that they're governed by internal standards.

There are things that are professionally incorrect to study.

Your reputation is stained if you
point to biological explanations.

Scientifically speaking
is an unprofessional attitude.

As a scientist you should be curious of everything.

-I feel that way too!
-So I get perplexed when I meet them-

-and they don't even want
to approach these theories.

That's too simplistic...

When imparting knowledge, it's been common to reject biology.

Here's from the series "Eva and Adam"-

-about the differences between men and women.

Men have an innate instinct for hunting.

But women are naturally drawn
to things like picking berries...

That's too simplistic.

They've looked for genes for a hundred years.

It has explained little of the
difference between the genders.

Men have the engineering brain women have...

A lot of that is prejudice.

But why do so many reject
biological perspectives on humans?

Some do because they don't
feel it has any utility value.

You are to understand why girls
are uninsterested in technical matters-

-but not interested in the biology?

That's something one can't do
anything about. It's uninteresting.

Let's say a component of it is biological.

But then we don't get any further.

Is that necessarily true?

Professor Simon Baron-Cohen
study children with autism.

His experiences are different.

Just because your biology
creates the way you are-

-doesn't mean there's nothing
that you can do about it.

So if you are born with
difficulties recognizing emotions-

-there may be interventions,
educational methods-

-which can help to reverse this.

Baron-Cohen has made an
educational video for autistic children.

By placing faces on trains, cars and buses,-

-you can draw on autistic children's
interest in things and systems.

So this is a way where
we can encourage them-

-to look at as faces,-

-even whilst they think that they are-

-just looking at films of trains.

-And it works?
-It works. Yeah.

We've evaluated them [with] this method,

-and we asked children with autism-

-to watch the DVD for
fifteen minutes a day-

-over a one month period,-

-and we measured the ability to-

-recognize emotions before and after.

We found that the children with autism-

-who watched the DVD-

-improved significantly-

-in their ability to recognize emotions-

-compared to a comparison group-

-who didn't get this opportunity.

William was happy.

"Checking my friends across the harbour-

-is my favourite thing to do."

*He smiles*

The scepticism towards biology often-

-stems from fear that this may have
unfortunate political consequences.

Biological explanations are often reactionary.

Martine Aurdal
Columnist, Dagbladet
Biological explanations are often reactionary.

Martine Aurdal
Columnist, Dagbladet

Because they are used to confirm traditional myths-
Martine Aurdal
Columnist, Dagbladet

Because they are used to confirm traditional myths-

-about how things should be.

More than showing the opportunities that are there.

Is biology right-wing politics?

Harvard psychology professor
Steven Pinker doesn't believe so.

He feels biology can give us guidelines-

-to how much we can change society.

I think the concept of biology helps us in knowing -

how much we can change in a humane way.

For example, I would say,-

-if men and women are not exactly the same-

-then the goal of having 50% of engineers be women-

-and 50% of researchers in child language be women-

-and 50% of everything be women.

-is going to be an inhumane goal,-

-because it's going to be preventing some people-

-from doing what they want to do.

So biology tells us what goals-

-are humane reasonable goals.

Does that imply that-

-every kind of society is not possible?

That's right. The existence of human nature-

-means that you can't just think up an idea-

-for an ideal utopia, a hypothetical society,-

-write it down on paper-

-and then impose it on people-

-and hope to get that society.

I don't think that would work.

I think we've had experiments in the 20th century-

-that tried that, such as Mao's China,-

-that resulted in human disasters.

In this world nothing is impossible
if humans dare to rise up.

From the movie
"Comrade Pedersen".
In this world nothing is impossible
if humans dare to rise up.

From the movie
"Comrade Pedersen".

If we are born like blank pages,
nothing is impossible.

But sometimes political utopia
collides with biological science.

When the Male Role Council
suggested paternal leave-

-where the father could be home
from when the child was six onths old,-

Several scientists reacted, among
them Leif E. Ottensen Kinnair at NTNU.

We dont now if this is good.
And that as the claim.

I said that we probably
should study the effects of this.

But from what we know so far,
the child has problems relating to-

-more than one primary
care-giver in that age.

That created a storm. Labor
Party member Arild S. Grande said:

"This is so stupid that only
a professor could have said it."

Uhn K. Juul from the same
party told Kennair and others:

"Enough personal views
start the scientific work."

There is political resistance here.

That should really
be kept away from science.

But some subjects are so politicized-

-that's it's hard for them to see this division.

For instance studies on human sexuality.

The biological scientists
are not given state financial support.

-They're not?
-No.

Because sexuality is not
to be seen as a biological result?

But one can apply for funds for projects-

-that criticize biology.

So one could say there are
frontlines in Norwegian academic life.

Several researchers have
gotten in trouble when including biology.

Philip Skau is a biologist,
and has studied homosexuality.

He thought it was strange
that nature made homosexuals-

-since most homosexuals
don't have children.

It's called an evolutionary paradox.

Genes that are coded for
certain behavior, like not reproducing,-

-would quickly have been
faded out of the population.

When Skau asked why
there still are homosexuals,-

-the reception was cold
among others that studied homosexuality.

The first things you hear are
the old stories about eugenics and such.

-So one gets compared with the Nazis?
-That happens every time.

Professor Nissen not only thinks
biological studies on homosexuality-

-are uninteresting
but also suspicious.

Equality and respect for our right
to love in the way we want is reached-

-the day we can be homosexuals
without biological explanation.

That we can say we want to
be gay. That we like being gay.

Everyone should be able to be gay.

Why is there a contradiction
between accepting homosexuals-

-and looking for a biological reason?

Because the search for a biological reason-

-is motivated by a need or
wish to dispose of homosexuality.

This is based on a relatively
simple understanding of biology.

You can't remove a gene.

And it says that those are
interested in other questions than them...

They have declared that "Why?"
is an unwanted question.

-That it has evil intentions.
-Do you want to dispose of gays?

-No.
-Because you are gay too?

Yes, and I have no interest
in disposing of my environment.

The Nazis had a biological basis
when they wanted to dispose of gays.

But others that wanted to remove
homosexuality, thought the opposite.

"Sexuality is a result of the
environment, and can be altered."

Vigdis, you are a lesbian.

And in the 60s you were in therapy.

They tried to "heal"
you from your homosexuality.

How was that a therapy?

Nitrous oxyde was
combined with dialogue therapy.

The thought was that-

-you sought a replacement for
your mother in the girls you loved?

That was one possible explanation.

Another one was that you could have
witnessed your parents having sex.

And disliked it. Misunderstood it.

Gotten scared, felt repulsion, whatever...

And then wanted to
try something different.

That you had seen your parents
having sex and thought it was repulsive.

"I never want to do that,
I don't want men..."

Yes, that could have
been another explanation.

An unfortunate case...

Did the therapy work? Did Vigdis
desire men more after treatment?

No, I didn't. No.

Those that tried to cure her, felt
Vigdis had turned into a homosexual.

And not born that way.
But what does Vigdis believe?

I think I'm born that way.

Professor Nissen was worried that a theory that homosexuals are born that way-

-was driven from a wish to dispose of them.

But Simon LeVay has
studied the relation between-

-our attitude towards gays, and
what we think homosexuality stems from.

There's a number of surveys
and psychological studies-

Simon LeVay
Neurologist.

-in the United States that point to the conclusion-
Simon LeVay
Neurologist.

Simon LeVay
Neurologist.

-that when people believe that sexual orientation-

-has some kind of biological basis-

-this actually improves their attitudes-

-towards gay people in the sense-

-they become more
accepting of homosexuality,-

-they become less
afraid that their children-

-are gonna be taught to be
gay by gay teachers, for example.

Even if the theory that everything
in us comes from the environment-

-could seem more optimistic,
because then we can mould people right,-

-this theory can in some instances
have very unfortunate consequences.

This couple were lucky
and got a healthy baby boy.

But what if they had a child
with an unclear sexual organ?

Also known as bisexual.

A malformed penis or vagina.

That's when the question
of gender identity is important.

Will this child feel like a boy or a girl?

Are your born with
this feeling or is it learned?

It's something you learn.

The gender identity, what
you feel like, is this learned?

Or is it something
that you're born with?

Like the psychologists say:
"What do you think of that question?"

No one is born with the
feeling of being a girl or a boy?

No, we're not.

The question is, can it be tested
if the feeling of being a girl or a boy-

-is something you learn,
or if you're born with it?

Could you take a
newborn boy, cut off his penis...

No.

Could you raise that child as a girl?

That's an uninteresting question.

But if it was possible, it
would be a weighty argument for-

-gender identity being something
that you get from the environment.

But if it wasn't possible,
it would be a weighty argument...

But we don't need it. We see now
how girls are formed like girls.

We don't need to cut
off penises to do that.

But this has been done. This is Victor.

He's perhaps a victim of the thought
that we are born like a blank page,-

-and everything in us is due to
the effects of the environment.

Victor was named Victoria,
and was born in 1986, in Ecuador.

Victoria was six months
old when se was left-

-at the steps of a
village hospital in Ecuador.

One morning when people came
to work, she lay there in a basket.

She was taken in and they
established that her gender was unclear.

Because her sexual
organs were malformed.

Every year in Norway 10-15
children are born with unclear gender.

Professor Diseth has worked
with these children since 1991.

At that time the basis
for the treatment was-

-the idea that children
are not born with gender identity.

Sociological research, the social studies,-

-feministic studies...

They were of the conviction
that children were born gender neutral.

And that the gender identity was formed-

-in the course of the first two years.

Depending on how the
parents brought the child up.

Supported by this theory, the
American psychologist John Money-

-who at that time was the
authority on children and gender identity,-

-that there was no reason to worry with children of unclear gender.

As long as we operated the
child within the first two years-

-to either a boy or a girl,-

-the upbringing and environment
would take care for the rest.

Nine months old in Ecuador,
Victoria was operated to become a girl.

When she was three, she was adopted
to Norway, and brought up as a girl.

But the treatment didn't go as planned.

She started to go to kindergarten.

She refused to wear girls clothes.

Wanted to play outside with the boys.

Then she was admitted here
at the National Hospital.

We were to complete the operations-

-as far as accentuating
the female sexual organs.

She was referred to me
the day after the operation.

In the journal it says "Normalized
conditions with the genitalia."

"No complicatons after the operations."

"But wakes up in a psychotic
stage, and is therefore referred."

I bring this child, six and a
half years old, to the playroom.

And we do an exercise
called "Draw youself".

She draws a certain
picture that really underlines-

-the problem here.

Victoria tells me that this is a boy.

"The boy is now dead."

"It was because the willy started to grow."

"The willy grew in the mouth,
so the child couldn't eat."

"The child then had to be
operated and the willy cut off."

"But the child died."

"The child and the willy
were buried in separate burials."

"Everyone came to
the funeral of the willy."

"But no-one came
to the boy's burial."

It was a powerful
experience for me.

Of course a powerful
experience for the child too.

But we had done
what our protocol told us to.

And I was to remove all
doubts about the gender of the child.

And that was a girl. And I was
to keep the condition a secret.

And I was to remove everything masculine.

But Diseth starts to doubt
the method of treatment.

Because there were
other children like Victoria-

-that didn't do well.

I saw that I couldn't
manage this task.

Make them realize they were girls.

Several of them were
periodically so depressed-

-that they had suicidal thoughts.

Some of them tried to commit suicide.

And some managed to do it.

Did you have feelings of guilt?

Yes.
What I said to myself the whole time-

-was that I was part of a treatment system-

of a high level, also internationally.

But I had enourmous personal
problems with endorsing this treatment.

It was Victoria that made
Diseth change his course.

When Victoria eventually
had considerable identity problems-

-and periodically was
hit with severe depression-

-and was suicidal too,-

-and goes through with a
serious attempt to commit suicide,-

-I finally say that enough is enough.

This was nine years ago.

Today Victoria is named
Victor, and is 25 years old.

Hello, Victor. Thanks for
taking part in this.

-Like I said, this is Harald Eia.
-Nice to meet you.

Let's sit down in the
sofa, like we usually do.

-This is the usual couch.
-You sit the furthest in.

I've always felt like a boy.

There was always something
different about the festive season.

There has been countless arguments
with my mother. Loud discussions.

Where they about
what you should wear?

Yes, those especially feminine outfits.

-Your mom told you to wear a dress?
-Yes.

-It was...
-You thought it was...?

It was horrible. I played
with very masculine toys.

Ninja Turtles... I always
wanted a man in the toys.

If we played house, I was the father.

Being a tomboy was OK. For a while.

When I was younger, I didn't
think that much about it.

But as I got older, I felt
everything with the social aspect...

To be able to relate to
the fact that I was a boy...

To have the feeling
that I was one of the boys.

But at the same time I wondered
why I had to deal with the feminine stuff.

It became totally chaotic.

As she grows older, Victoria
experiences more and more problems.

One day she calls Diseth.

I havent received many
calls like I did when Victoria-

-called me after 10 years.

This was when Victoria
was 16 years old.

With the opening question:
"Diseth, who am I? What am I?"

I almost fell off my chair.

That's not the kind of usual
problems I am asked about here.

Diseth decides to
tell Victoria the truth.

About the malformed penis,
the operation and the secrecy.

I talk to Diseth and I say
that I feel enough is enough.

He is informed that I will stop
the treatment with the female estrogen.

To reverse the process Victor
starts a treatment with male hormones.

It was like euphoria for me
the first time I took testosterone...

What kind of euphoria?
Did you feel...?

It was like...
It was an indescribable feeling.

It was like, wow...

In January you underwent
another operation.

Yes, I did. A long-awaited operation.

What was the object of the operation?
To try to make a new penis?

Yes. To make it work properly again.

They just had to angle it up again.

To make me do normal things with it again.

Do you know if it was a success?

I feel that there are
a few things remaining.

Two years ago I felt
that there was 50% that was lacking-

-before I could live
like a human being.

Now I feel like 90%
of my life is in place.

Victor has always had
a vision of how he wanted to be.
Victor's drawings.

Victor's drawings.

A male figure he always
envisioned, but never could be.
Victor's drawings.

Victor's drawings.

Because the boy he felt he
was, was operated to become a girl.
Victor's drawings.

Because the boy he felt he
was, was operated to become a girl.

I like to use a strong quote:

I wish that the person I see-

-was the boy lying...

It was..

-Shall I help you to say it?
-No, I want to try.

It was the boy lying
on the operating table-

-when I was six months old.

And literally had his llife destroyed.

Drawn by Victor,
6 years old.
And literally had his llife destroyed.

Drawn by Victor,
6 years old.

Because of...
Drawn by Victor,
6 years old.

Drawn by Victor,
6 years old.

Doctors and professors and surgeons
stuck to the theories and practices-

-of this John Money.

Much because of Victor, Norwegian
medicine has abandoned-

-Money's theores that gender
identity is something you are taught.

Now they take lots of cell samples
of children born with unclear gender.

Then we can work out if the brain
is affected by the androgenic hormone.

What level of androgenic
hormone has affected the brain?

From the knowledge of that,-

-we can decide what kind of
gender we should operate the child to.

And then be raised as.

The new treatment method
with the basis that a child is born-

-with a gender identity,
has proven very successful.

The children now have
no gender identity issues.

No confusion about
their gender identity.

The types of depression,
angst and suicidal tendencies-

-we experienced before,
we have yet to see now.

Victor now works and
lives in a city outside of Oslo.

He can finally find out who he
is and what he want to do with hs life.

But some are critical to
Diseth's method of treatment.

Agnes Bolsoe is a sociologist
and associate professor at NTNU.

She disagrees with the way
we treat children with unclear gender.

What happens with
these children is abusive.

They are operated. We can't
stand not knowing the gender.

They are operated because we,
as a society, can't stand ambiguous...

We can't handle that, so in a
day a gender is decided for that person.

Then a decision is made.

With us we become human by
becoming one of the two genders.

So we reject the natural variation.

There are men with little
testosterone, and women wth lots.

And people have small
and large sexual organs.

So the diversity in
biology is enormous.

Bolsoe says the society
forces us to look at humans-

-as either males or females.

It's in the way I think of gender and sexuality.

I want more people to agree to this.

I want to think sexuality
and gender in a way-

-that makes it more flexible.

Where we stop thinking "him" or "her"-

-when a human is born.

And where we
welcome all humans-

-in a warm way.

And not give them hormones
or operate their sexual organs.

Like we do today.

Yes. This stirs emotions and...

And some cognitive
work to remain calm...

Do you get angry?

I get frustrated.

She's welcome to
join us a few days-

-when we receive these children.

She will see that
regardless of their condition,-

-regardless of the
anomaly of their genitalia,-

-they are received
with love and care.

Not only by their parents,
but the whole system.

But doesn't Bolsoe have a point?

Why can't these children
just be like they are?

Why must they be operated
to become a girl or a boy?

We're not desperate to operate
or to stuff them with hormones.

This is about two things:

The first is to take into
consideration what the brain-

-sees itself as.

And then choose that.

And then we must
care for the parents-

-regarding the enormous
existential crisis they experience-

-when they have a baby and it's
unclear whether it's a boy or a girl.

Bolsoe wants a society
where it's not so hard to be-

-a child with unclear gender.

This is a project where it's easy
to sit behind a desk with opinions.

But with respect to the life that people live-

-it's much too demanding, with a much
too high psychological price to pay-

-in relation to the dream
of an ideal society.

Where we have gone away
from the dichotomy variable,-

-man-woman, boy-girl.

I invite Bolsoe back to show
her Diseth answer to her criticism.

He says it's easy to sit behind a desk.

But it's also easy to stand
there with the scalpel.

The medical history proves that.

They have a bloody history
when it comes to gender.

What do you feel should
be done with these children?

What we should do?

The medical profession today
should rather work culturally with this.

Not cut or stimulate anything.

Work with the parents
and the culture?

The physicians should say:

"There is something wrong
with the way we think about gender."

-Our society?
-Yes.

And then try to fix our ideas.

About what is gender
and what is natural.

Does it help to fix our ideas-

-if the feeling of being
a boy or a girl is innate?

We talked with someone named Victor.

He was born with an
underdeveloped penis.

In those days they felt
gender identity was so flexible that...

I know those studies.

And the results weren't good.
Now he's operated back to being a man...

Doesn't this show that
gender identity is innate?

No, it shows that the medical
profession is completely lost.

That they want to make
such a fuss about this gender.

But this person who
turns out to be a boy,-

-has felt like a boy the whole way...
How do you explain that?

He was always treated like a girl.

The language you now
use to talk about gender...

You are talking in a tautology.

Your reasoning is tautological.

I talked to him. He said he always felt like a boy.

But he heard from
everyone that he was a girl.

But he felt it was wrong.

Can you deny that he felt that?

Of course not, but the
problem lies another place.

We have to look at what
we can do to help this boy.

"Should we give him an
operation where we remove..."

-Did he start out as a boy?
-Born with an underdeveloped penis.

"Oh dear, we must cut off this penis."

Or should we ask
the medical profession,-

-the psychologists and psychiatrists,
to work with the culture instead?

And then say that this
person is a good person.

What gender he feels like, is not our concern.

This person should be
left alone with his gender.

And we have to rethink our ideas of gender.

How can you explain that Victor-

-who always was raised as
a girl, always felt like a boy?

I have to talk to the boy.

Doesn't this prove that
there's something innate here?

It can't be innate.

How could our own
reflection of things be innate?

You can't think yourself as
a boy without having a language.

You can feel like a boy
without having a language.

-How do you think like a boy?
-You just feel like one.

One depends on language
to feel like a boy or a girl?

Of course. You can't
reflect on yourself being a boy-

-before you have a language.

And then someone tells you
whether you're a boy or a girl.

Victor was told he was a girl.
But still he felt like a boy.

-Isn't that strange?
-I guess things didn't fit for him-

-in how you act in society as a girl.

Bolsoe feels that nothing
here changes her theory-

-that gender identity is something you learn.

What about Lorentzen then?

I show him Victor's story.

Are you a bit surprised
over what he tells you?

No, not really.

Shouldn't one thing that when
it's the environment that moulds you,-

-it would be much more
successful to make him a girl?

No, because we live in,
as I have tried to say,-

-in a world that largely, in Norway too,-

-socializes girls to be
girls and boys to be boys.

But he didn't become a girl,
even with all the pressure...

Because, since he was born as a boy,
he felt he belonged with the boys.

How did he know he was born a boy?
No one has ever told him.

Then I have to know the story better
to say anything about it.

But children see themselves in others.

Their self-perception makes
them see, and see others.

And they react in relation to others.

And that has made him, at
one time, realize that he was a boy.

So he has gotten some hints
from somewhere...

Yes, I would think so.

This theory of Victor feeling like
a boy because he got a hint or two-

-seems like an attempt
to save the hypothesis-

-of everything being learned.

A hypothesis that
fits better with the wish-

-that the human being
is totally mouldable.

I feel that some Norwegian
scentists reject biology.

-because the biology doesn't
fit with their political goals.

Like with equality, violence
and school performance.

But how much in science
should be governed by politics?

If you set a particular goal
like ending discrimination-

-then you shouldn't have to spin doctor-

-or distort the science just to help that goal along-

-since it's a kind of lying, and
there's no defense towards lying.

To me, this is also about
what science should be.

Diseth changed his opinion when
his theories were tested in reality.

But this ability to be open to
new information and ideas-

-is something I've been more
seldom met with than I hoped.

I'm almost disappointed
when I met Norwegian scientists.

I thought they would be
more curious and open.

And then there is no trace of it.

Then you've met too few people
before you got that assumption, I think!

Our universities and college environment
are like the stronghold of rationality,-

-but in practice they are just as irrational,
as marked by power struggles,-

-as other environments.
The tolerance level is just as low-

-and the rationality is not better developed.

I think maybe I have been a bit naive...

Yes, you may have been?