Brainwash (2010–…): Season 1, Episode 3 - Homo/hetero - full transcript
Do you have the time for a few questions? It's a serious program.
Excuse me, could I ask you a few questions?
You're fooling me.
I'll just ask about homosexuality.
No.
Why not? It's simple. Nature or nurture?
Homosexuality is innate.
Gays deserve the same acceptance.
A hundred years ago the term "homosexual" didn't exist.
You have a big mouth. Lots of teeth.
I didn't look very good there.
Nice to see you!
Haven't I got a lot?
I've seen more. Lets put it like that.
I said straight out. "I'm gay."
Can you spot a lesbian woman?
I can see that right away.
I'm in Oslo's main street watching the gay parade.
A parade of thousands of gay women and men from all over the country.
Here it's easy to spot who's gay.
But elsewhere, can one spot who's gay or hetero?
Does the gay radar work?
Are you good at spotting whether a person is gay?
Yes.
I see it right away.
Do you think you can see whether a person is gay or not?
Yes.
Yes.
Often you can.
No. Not always.
I said often.
I think I often time can spot it fairly easily.
Yes. If they use girls clothes.
Only then?
They use tight clothes makeup and have purses.
The way they act. With one hand like this.
Can you spot if a person is homosexual?
On some.
I couldn't on Sturla.
I never thought he was gay.
I watch tapes of "Gullruten 2008"
Just a few weeks before Sturla Berg Johansen announced he was gay.
Look at that! I didn't see it then, but I do now!
The dancing...
I can't believe I missed it then. Baard doesn't se anything.
I go to Drammen, where Sturla has his own show.
Where he talks about coming out of the closet.
This is Drammen Theater.
The gay radar doesn't spot you, because you're masculine.
Are there feminine sides you repress-
Gay sides you haven't released? How does it work?
No, no I don't think so.
I think this is half in jest.
But a some people say they see more of the gestures now.
I think it's because they now know I'm gay.
Okay, but perhaps Sturla is an exception?
I go to talk to another homosexual.
Is he noticed on people's gay radar?
You can't tell by the doorbell who's gay or straight.
But there... there's something...
Folkestad...
Hi! How nice. Harald here.
Come in.
Nice place.
Nice of you to think so.
Always flowers on the table?
We usually have flowers here, yes.
I have sides that people relate to homosexuals.
What are those?
The way I talk.
My interest.
The way you talk?
I've just heard that I have a gay way of talking.
So I've just noted that.
What is it? Is it something about your s-es?
Say: Seven swans swimming.
Seven swans swimming...
Yes! It's hard with the dialect too.
There is something about the s-es and it's like your tongue is a bit further out.
After trying my skills as an amateur gay radar researcher,-
I decide to talk with some experts on homosexuality.
The 3 I have to talk to are: Agnes Bolsoe, sociologist and associate professor at center for gender studies at NTNU in Trondheim.
This is my office.
It's more messy than mine.
Is it?
Nils Axel Nissen, professor at the University of Oslo.
It this your office?
Yes. What about it?
I had pictured some fancy place.
No, by God.
And Jørgen Lorentzen, Inter disciplinary Gender Research Institute.
He originally started his education as an agronomist.
This is Lorentzen's plant. The agronomist.
Can one spot if a person is homosexual or heterosexual?
No, you can't.
Can one spot if a person is homosexual?
No. What do you mean when you say homosexual?
That's the great misunderstanding.
That effeminate men automatically are considered gay.
Are there any studies on whether people are good at spotting gays?
Surely. But let me put it this way; this is not the type of studies I'm concerned with.
But I'm concerned with those types of studies!
And after a little research online I find that there actually are studies on gay radar, or "gaydar".
Gerulf Reiger, psychologist, works at Northwestern University.
He has actually studied how good a homo-radar people actually have.
I have to go to America.
Rieger actually works in Chicago.
But to save money for the NRK, I flew him to New York.
Rieger filmed 40 homosexual and heterosexual men and women.
That say in a chair and talked about the weather. The tapes were modified.
And then it was shown to people for them to assess body language.
Rieger tests my gay radar.
Riege plays some recordings to see how good my gay voice radar is.
So one can, to a certain degree, see and hear whether people are gay or not.
And the Norwegian researchers admit that it can happen.
So, some you can spot it on, because of the cultural expectations of gays.
Some act it out.
Hear! I get tired out of nothing!
But why do gay men play out this femininity?
That's the erotic language.
On the symbolic level there's not much to assist us-
-when signaling erotic interest.
So it's about signaling to others?
That could be.
Without us knowing it. It doesn't have to be conscious.
But unconsciously you would signal interest to other men.
One way to do it, is to under-emphasize the masculinity.
Wear some other signs that make you stand out as different.
And available for other men.
So it's wrong to say that gay men are more feminine than...?
Yes, that's very wrong.
Rieger says tha gay radar detects deeper differences between hetero- and homosexuals.
A bigger package?
Could gays and straights be different in other things than sexuality?
I have noticed that there a more male homosexuals hairdressers, stylists and pursers, for example.
But I have always thought that was a prejudice and stereotyping.
Could it be that gays and straights not only like to sleep with,-
-but also work with different things?
In this university I'm meeting professor Richard Lippa.
I get to sit at my own little messy desk-
-while Lippa talks about his giant survey with over 200.000 respondents.
-in 53 different countries on all the continents.
There are no systematic studies that have investigated gays' occupational choices.
But it seems like they're overrepresented in some professions.
And an American survey among professional dancers-
-showed that over 50 % of the male dancers were gay.
But there were hardly any lesbian dancers.
Are gay men more like women when it comes to other things too?
I find an English study that shows that gay men are worse at map reading that straight men.
You read in the paper that gay men are worse at reading maps.
(gender researcher)
So, this type... I get this all the time.
Are you tired of it?
I just have to laugh at it.
There's constantly weird researchers that find out the most fishy things.
And try to claim that they're found something out.
But it's such weak and marginal research...
It carries no weight. IT has no credibility.
But there's even more. At Karolinska Institute in Stockholm-
-they're found that the brains of gay men and straight women-
-react the same to smells.
So when you read studies from Karolinska that find differences in the brain,-
between hetero- and homosexuals. What do you think then?
I think it's pretty pathetic.
Why?
Because there is a near fanatical focus on trivialities.
I don't think the foundation to any of those studies are solid, actually.
That's the quasi-science or our time.
None, none studies have managed to prove biological differences. Not one.
But they believe so strongly. They believe so strongly.
That they keep on looking. For the home gene, the homo hormone.
For all kinds of things.
Yes, this was a categorical rejection.
Are there really not a single biological study that there is some truth in?
The best known researcher was from the 50's or 60's. LeVay.
He made a big deal of finally finding the homosexual brain.
He found that they had less cerebral cortex in the cerebellum, or such.
When I arrive at my office. I find that LeVay didn't do this study in the 50's or 60's,-
-but in 1991, and it was published in the prestigious magazine "Science".
And here it is revealed that it was not the cerebellum that he studied, but the hypothalamus.
Hypothalamus is a small, but important part of the brain.
That controls hunger, thirst and sexual desire.
I decide to visit Simon LeVay, and head for the gay district in West Hollywood.
That's where the now retired neurologist lives.
He lives... Here!
9003...
This small part of the brain in gay men-
-looked more like the female brain than the brain of straight men.
But what do these findings actually mean?
A brain difference that has occurred already in fetal life?
Then we can't avoid the question everyone must have discussed:
Can I ask a few questions? Do you think homosexuality is innate.
Yes.
I guess they're born that way.
Born that way.
Born.
That's what you think?
Yes.
They're born that way?
The question of whether you're born gay or become gay...
They answer on this is?
I don't know, and who cares?
What about yourself?
That has no public interest.
I'll check if it has. Yes, it has.
I think I've always been comfortable with being different.
So you think of it as a desire to be different?
I'm an individualist, and for me it wasn't enough being hetero.
So in one way you can choose your orientation?
Yes, you can do that, of cause.
We're not born gay or straight?
Absolutely not.
Could I decide to become gay?
And then after a whole I would get turned on by other men?
Yes, I'm sure you can.
I could imagine that, yes.
So it's that mouldable?
It's moldable, yes.
So you're born with a desire.
But it's not directed towards a gender?
No, I don't think it is.
We should look at your desire as constantly evolving.
In motion, and in the process of being molded.
People change their sexual orientation.
That could point to the sexual orientation being moldable.
Many of those living as adults in a gay or lesbian relationship-
-have had experienced with or been in a relationship with-
-the opposite gender.
Suddenly they feel the time has come to leave the marriage.
And then they move in with a man.
It's not that unusual these days.
But does this mean that they have changed their sexual orientation?
Sturla Berg Johansen had a girlfriend for many years.
We had been together for a year, and I knew it didn't work.
But I couldn't put my finger on anything.
And then I felt I had to address this question.
So I did that for about a year.
To arrive at the realization. Then I had to arrive at the acceptance.
To accept that this was the way it was.
"It's not either or. You are gay."
Because you think that deep down you are gay.
But you've been confused...
"Confused" is right.
Of expectations from others. And not least my own.
But it's because I've been fed up with how things are supposed to be.
And then I believe it, and get confused because I feel differently.
"Confused" is a very good expression.
You can have it, Sturla.
Thank you very much.
In this context, I meant.
You can use it otherwise too.
Thank you!
If sexual orientation is i flux, one would think-
-the percentage of homosexuals vary from country to country and between cultures.
In Norway 3 % of males say they are exclusively gay.
And less than 1 % that they are bisexual.
If the Norwegian researchers are right, there are countries-
-with far more gays and bisexuals.
Are there societies where more people have sex with each other between genders?
Yes. In many tribes. There have been anthropological studies on that.
They have oral sex as a rite of passage.
This varies in different cultures?
Yes, it varies a lot.
Yes, how much does sexual orientation vary?
The tribe Nissen mentioned, is the Bedamini tribe at New Guinea.
Where young boys have ritual oral sex with older boys.
Luckily a Norwegian has already been there, so I don't have to go.
Arve Sørum is now an anthropology professor at the University of Oslo.
Now I will visit Sørum that in 1972 made the first of four visits to the Bedamini tribe.
He wondered what the deal was with the gay sex the men there practiced.
Little boys have to get semen from older boys.
It's a private ritual between two boys.
One who's sexually mature, and one who's not.
Because the young boys need the semen, or?
No, the reason is that they have ideas that the females-
-have growth potential in their blood.
But the men have growth potential in their semen.
And the boys, before puberty, don't have that.
And that means they have to be supplied semen.
They have to swallow it? How long does it take?
From the age of about 10 maybe 11 until they are sexually mature.
And when they are finished with these rituals,-
-are they changed? Have they become homosexual?
No, they haven't.
They have the same sexual orientation as they would have before.
So no, they have not changed sexual orientation.
The percentages of gays and straight are the same as in our society?
Without having the exact figures,-
-I would say it's the same distribution you find in our society.
The point is that maybe we're not as moldable after all?
Maybe we're born with an orientation.
Now I'm going to "Gay Kids": a photo exhibition-
-of childhood pictures of homosexuals.
Can you already see it on kids that they will become homosexuals?
Can you see it in children?
No, of course not.
No.
I feel you can't.
I have worked with children.
And I've noticed it with them from when they were rather small.
I could say: "Here we have a homosexual one."
And you're been right?
Yes.
The other boys tried to be tough.
I never did.
I was more...
I went for walks with older ladies.
I never did.
No.
That never occurred to me: "The welfare state takes care of the elderly."
How nice! You really did?
Is was because I thought it was nice.
I go to a cafe to meet one of the first openly lesbian women in Norway.
How does she recall her childhood?
I was always very boyish as a child.
I really wanted a boys name. So I daily called myself "Viggo".
Of all the names you chose Viggo.
Viggo, Vigdis...
I was very active physically.
In what was at that time called games for boys.
I liked that a lot.
Many adult homosexuals say that they were different as kids.
But if you're a feminine boy or a masculine girl,-
-does that make it more likely that you later will become homosexual?
Glenn Wilson is a psychologist and a professor at King's College London.
And he has read studies were they have observed groups of children-
-from childhood to adulthood.
But a father with a feminine son,-
-can he make a boy hetero by forcing him to do boys stuff?
Like LeVay, Wilson says you have to go to the fetal life-
-to understand why some like men and some women.
In the fetal life the brains of girls and boys are similar-
-until between the 8th and the 12th week.
But then the boy's brain is showered with testosterone-
-which switches it to a male mode.
The theory is that gay boys got a little less testosterone in the fetal life.
And therefore are a bit more similar to girls.
That's perhaps why gay men are worse at reading maps than heterosexual men.
Until now it's been a medical mystery-
-that has created one of our times biggest debates.
"Is there a gene that decides whether you are homosexual or heterosexual?"
But if sexual orientation is already created in the fetal life,-
-does that mean that homosexuality is hereditary?
Does a form for home gene exist?
You are identical twins. And both are gay.
Are you born gay, or do you become gay?
I'm convinced that you are born that way.
I know several people who has a cousin...
I'm convinced that it's in the genes.
So there are several in your family who are gay?
We have a lesbian sister too.
A 50 % chance. But identical twins are 100 % genetically similar.
So it can't be just about genes.
We don't know exactly how and why these genes are switched on and off.
And no-one has the final answer.
But research indicates-
-that there are something biological that decides your sexual preference.
Maybe homosexuals are a mosaic male and female traits.
And that there actually is a reason for why many gay men are seen as a little more feminine.
And many lesbians as a little more masculine.
I think back on my last meeting with the Norwegian homosexuality researchers and their view on the biological science.
None... none studies have managed to prove biological reasons. Not a single one.
But it's such weak and marginal research...
It carries no weight.
But they have such strong beliefs.
First I invite Agnes Bolsoe to my office to get her assessment of my findings.
Bolsoe thinks, unlike Wilson, that it's impossible to tell if a child will become gay.
What does she think of these studies?
You don't take this seriously, do you?
Is it hard to take seriously?
Yes, I think it's very hard to take seriously.
Because the premise is just nonsense to me.
I am hesitant to comment on-
-those studies without seeing what they actually have done.
I've had some fun doing that lately.
But how do you know...
Just try to look at under what kinds of conditions he produced the results.
How were the observations made?
What is the sample? What kinds of analysis terms does he use?
But I want to ask...
And what you find then, is what we call rubbish.
In plain Norwegian. Unfortunately.
Which science do you base that on when you say that one cannot tell with children-
-if they are going to be gay or hetero?
I was once a child myself.
So you look at yourself?
No-one said anything about me going to be gay.
But you base it on more than yourself?
I have friends that have the same experience.
But science. Not just talking with...
And I didn't become gay. Right.
The point is that the assumptions to these studies is like jelly.
There is a whole wave with studies that in all kind of various ways try to find/spot-
-and pin to the wall the homosexual.
But Vignis and Folkestad said they felt different as kids.
Yes, yes.
Why not see if there's a pattern?
It probably a pattern. And so what?
So you think there's a pattern?
It's a possibility.
But the question is. How interesting is that?
And what... No, it's not interesting because...
I think it is interesting. Because it can tell us that gays perhaps are a mosaic of male..
Do you have a masculine job?
No, not typically.
But are you gay?
No.
Okay...
But his was a pattern.
Yes...
But you don't think it's interesting that gay men are less interested in-
-working with engineer things than..
I fail to see how those studies have any interest.
And one must, again, we have to see his questionnaire.
I become unsure if Bolsoe thinks the studies are bad,-
-uninteresting or morally reprehensible.
But what about Lorentzen?
I show him Levay talking about studies that point towards gay men being more similar to women in sense of space.
How does he think there differences occur if they are not innate?
It could be-
-so, when a man or a boy decides to live as a heterosexually. Right.
When he comes out of the closet as you say. Right.
As a homosexual it can happen that he wants do distance himself from an unwanted masculinity.
How do you know that there are no innate differences in gay men?
That they have a little more feminine orientation...
Because it's not proven.
In short, there is nothing...
So you don't have more scientific evidence to say that gay men are not more feminine-
-than they have for saying that they are?
I have no basis to say either the one or the other. I don't have that.
But it's not interesting either!
It's more interesting how we, as a society, regard homosexuality.
That's too...
That's the most important!
Because the tolerance of homosexuality is the most important thing to study.
Because it says something about the level of democracy in a society.
And the level of tolerance in the individual. Correct?
That one accepts diversity.
I completely agree that respect for gays is the most important thing.
But I don't understand why there is a contrast between tolerance on the one side,-
-and biological research on the other side?
The skepticism the Norwegian researchers have against biology-
-to me it seems both unscientific, and base on a misunderstanding-
-that biological research stigmatizes gays.
Excuse me, could I ask you a few questions?
You're fooling me.
I'll just ask about homosexuality.
No.
Why not? It's simple. Nature or nurture?
Homosexuality is innate.
Gays deserve the same acceptance.
A hundred years ago the term "homosexual" didn't exist.
You have a big mouth. Lots of teeth.
I didn't look very good there.
Nice to see you!
Haven't I got a lot?
I've seen more. Lets put it like that.
I said straight out. "I'm gay."
Can you spot a lesbian woman?
I can see that right away.
I'm in Oslo's main street watching the gay parade.
A parade of thousands of gay women and men from all over the country.
Here it's easy to spot who's gay.
But elsewhere, can one spot who's gay or hetero?
Does the gay radar work?
Are you good at spotting whether a person is gay?
Yes.
I see it right away.
Do you think you can see whether a person is gay or not?
Yes.
Yes.
Often you can.
No. Not always.
I said often.
I think I often time can spot it fairly easily.
Yes. If they use girls clothes.
Only then?
They use tight clothes makeup and have purses.
The way they act. With one hand like this.
Can you spot if a person is homosexual?
On some.
I couldn't on Sturla.
I never thought he was gay.
I watch tapes of "Gullruten 2008"
Just a few weeks before Sturla Berg Johansen announced he was gay.
Look at that! I didn't see it then, but I do now!
The dancing...
I can't believe I missed it then. Baard doesn't se anything.
I go to Drammen, where Sturla has his own show.
Where he talks about coming out of the closet.
This is Drammen Theater.
The gay radar doesn't spot you, because you're masculine.
Are there feminine sides you repress-
Gay sides you haven't released? How does it work?
No, no I don't think so.
I think this is half in jest.
But a some people say they see more of the gestures now.
I think it's because they now know I'm gay.
Okay, but perhaps Sturla is an exception?
I go to talk to another homosexual.
Is he noticed on people's gay radar?
You can't tell by the doorbell who's gay or straight.
But there... there's something...
Folkestad...
Hi! How nice. Harald here.
Come in.
Nice place.
Nice of you to think so.
Always flowers on the table?
We usually have flowers here, yes.
I have sides that people relate to homosexuals.
What are those?
The way I talk.
My interest.
The way you talk?
I've just heard that I have a gay way of talking.
So I've just noted that.
What is it? Is it something about your s-es?
Say: Seven swans swimming.
Seven swans swimming...
Yes! It's hard with the dialect too.
There is something about the s-es and it's like your tongue is a bit further out.
After trying my skills as an amateur gay radar researcher,-
I decide to talk with some experts on homosexuality.
The 3 I have to talk to are: Agnes Bolsoe, sociologist and associate professor at center for gender studies at NTNU in Trondheim.
This is my office.
It's more messy than mine.
Is it?
Nils Axel Nissen, professor at the University of Oslo.
It this your office?
Yes. What about it?
I had pictured some fancy place.
No, by God.
And Jørgen Lorentzen, Inter disciplinary Gender Research Institute.
He originally started his education as an agronomist.
This is Lorentzen's plant. The agronomist.
Can one spot if a person is homosexual or heterosexual?
No, you can't.
Can one spot if a person is homosexual?
No. What do you mean when you say homosexual?
That's the great misunderstanding.
That effeminate men automatically are considered gay.
Are there any studies on whether people are good at spotting gays?
Surely. But let me put it this way; this is not the type of studies I'm concerned with.
But I'm concerned with those types of studies!
And after a little research online I find that there actually are studies on gay radar, or "gaydar".
Gerulf Reiger, psychologist, works at Northwestern University.
He has actually studied how good a homo-radar people actually have.
I have to go to America.
Rieger actually works in Chicago.
But to save money for the NRK, I flew him to New York.
Rieger filmed 40 homosexual and heterosexual men and women.
That say in a chair and talked about the weather. The tapes were modified.
And then it was shown to people for them to assess body language.
Rieger tests my gay radar.
Riege plays some recordings to see how good my gay voice radar is.
So one can, to a certain degree, see and hear whether people are gay or not.
And the Norwegian researchers admit that it can happen.
So, some you can spot it on, because of the cultural expectations of gays.
Some act it out.
Hear! I get tired out of nothing!
But why do gay men play out this femininity?
That's the erotic language.
On the symbolic level there's not much to assist us-
-when signaling erotic interest.
So it's about signaling to others?
That could be.
Without us knowing it. It doesn't have to be conscious.
But unconsciously you would signal interest to other men.
One way to do it, is to under-emphasize the masculinity.
Wear some other signs that make you stand out as different.
And available for other men.
So it's wrong to say that gay men are more feminine than...?
Yes, that's very wrong.
Rieger says tha gay radar detects deeper differences between hetero- and homosexuals.
A bigger package?
Could gays and straights be different in other things than sexuality?
I have noticed that there a more male homosexuals hairdressers, stylists and pursers, for example.
But I have always thought that was a prejudice and stereotyping.
Could it be that gays and straights not only like to sleep with,-
-but also work with different things?
In this university I'm meeting professor Richard Lippa.
I get to sit at my own little messy desk-
-while Lippa talks about his giant survey with over 200.000 respondents.
-in 53 different countries on all the continents.
There are no systematic studies that have investigated gays' occupational choices.
But it seems like they're overrepresented in some professions.
And an American survey among professional dancers-
-showed that over 50 % of the male dancers were gay.
But there were hardly any lesbian dancers.
Are gay men more like women when it comes to other things too?
I find an English study that shows that gay men are worse at map reading that straight men.
You read in the paper that gay men are worse at reading maps.
(gender researcher)
So, this type... I get this all the time.
Are you tired of it?
I just have to laugh at it.
There's constantly weird researchers that find out the most fishy things.
And try to claim that they're found something out.
But it's such weak and marginal research...
It carries no weight. IT has no credibility.
But there's even more. At Karolinska Institute in Stockholm-
-they're found that the brains of gay men and straight women-
-react the same to smells.
So when you read studies from Karolinska that find differences in the brain,-
between hetero- and homosexuals. What do you think then?
I think it's pretty pathetic.
Why?
Because there is a near fanatical focus on trivialities.
I don't think the foundation to any of those studies are solid, actually.
That's the quasi-science or our time.
None, none studies have managed to prove biological differences. Not one.
But they believe so strongly. They believe so strongly.
That they keep on looking. For the home gene, the homo hormone.
For all kinds of things.
Yes, this was a categorical rejection.
Are there really not a single biological study that there is some truth in?
The best known researcher was from the 50's or 60's. LeVay.
He made a big deal of finally finding the homosexual brain.
He found that they had less cerebral cortex in the cerebellum, or such.
When I arrive at my office. I find that LeVay didn't do this study in the 50's or 60's,-
-but in 1991, and it was published in the prestigious magazine "Science".
And here it is revealed that it was not the cerebellum that he studied, but the hypothalamus.
Hypothalamus is a small, but important part of the brain.
That controls hunger, thirst and sexual desire.
I decide to visit Simon LeVay, and head for the gay district in West Hollywood.
That's where the now retired neurologist lives.
He lives... Here!
9003...
This small part of the brain in gay men-
-looked more like the female brain than the brain of straight men.
But what do these findings actually mean?
A brain difference that has occurred already in fetal life?
Then we can't avoid the question everyone must have discussed:
Can I ask a few questions? Do you think homosexuality is innate.
Yes.
I guess they're born that way.
Born that way.
Born.
That's what you think?
Yes.
They're born that way?
The question of whether you're born gay or become gay...
They answer on this is?
I don't know, and who cares?
What about yourself?
That has no public interest.
I'll check if it has. Yes, it has.
I think I've always been comfortable with being different.
So you think of it as a desire to be different?
I'm an individualist, and for me it wasn't enough being hetero.
So in one way you can choose your orientation?
Yes, you can do that, of cause.
We're not born gay or straight?
Absolutely not.
Could I decide to become gay?
And then after a whole I would get turned on by other men?
Yes, I'm sure you can.
I could imagine that, yes.
So it's that mouldable?
It's moldable, yes.
So you're born with a desire.
But it's not directed towards a gender?
No, I don't think it is.
We should look at your desire as constantly evolving.
In motion, and in the process of being molded.
People change their sexual orientation.
That could point to the sexual orientation being moldable.
Many of those living as adults in a gay or lesbian relationship-
-have had experienced with or been in a relationship with-
-the opposite gender.
Suddenly they feel the time has come to leave the marriage.
And then they move in with a man.
It's not that unusual these days.
But does this mean that they have changed their sexual orientation?
Sturla Berg Johansen had a girlfriend for many years.
We had been together for a year, and I knew it didn't work.
But I couldn't put my finger on anything.
And then I felt I had to address this question.
So I did that for about a year.
To arrive at the realization. Then I had to arrive at the acceptance.
To accept that this was the way it was.
"It's not either or. You are gay."
Because you think that deep down you are gay.
But you've been confused...
"Confused" is right.
Of expectations from others. And not least my own.
But it's because I've been fed up with how things are supposed to be.
And then I believe it, and get confused because I feel differently.
"Confused" is a very good expression.
You can have it, Sturla.
Thank you very much.
In this context, I meant.
You can use it otherwise too.
Thank you!
If sexual orientation is i flux, one would think-
-the percentage of homosexuals vary from country to country and between cultures.
In Norway 3 % of males say they are exclusively gay.
And less than 1 % that they are bisexual.
If the Norwegian researchers are right, there are countries-
-with far more gays and bisexuals.
Are there societies where more people have sex with each other between genders?
Yes. In many tribes. There have been anthropological studies on that.
They have oral sex as a rite of passage.
This varies in different cultures?
Yes, it varies a lot.
Yes, how much does sexual orientation vary?
The tribe Nissen mentioned, is the Bedamini tribe at New Guinea.
Where young boys have ritual oral sex with older boys.
Luckily a Norwegian has already been there, so I don't have to go.
Arve Sørum is now an anthropology professor at the University of Oslo.
Now I will visit Sørum that in 1972 made the first of four visits to the Bedamini tribe.
He wondered what the deal was with the gay sex the men there practiced.
Little boys have to get semen from older boys.
It's a private ritual between two boys.
One who's sexually mature, and one who's not.
Because the young boys need the semen, or?
No, the reason is that they have ideas that the females-
-have growth potential in their blood.
But the men have growth potential in their semen.
And the boys, before puberty, don't have that.
And that means they have to be supplied semen.
They have to swallow it? How long does it take?
From the age of about 10 maybe 11 until they are sexually mature.
And when they are finished with these rituals,-
-are they changed? Have they become homosexual?
No, they haven't.
They have the same sexual orientation as they would have before.
So no, they have not changed sexual orientation.
The percentages of gays and straight are the same as in our society?
Without having the exact figures,-
-I would say it's the same distribution you find in our society.
The point is that maybe we're not as moldable after all?
Maybe we're born with an orientation.
Now I'm going to "Gay Kids": a photo exhibition-
-of childhood pictures of homosexuals.
Can you already see it on kids that they will become homosexuals?
Can you see it in children?
No, of course not.
No.
I feel you can't.
I have worked with children.
And I've noticed it with them from when they were rather small.
I could say: "Here we have a homosexual one."
And you're been right?
Yes.
The other boys tried to be tough.
I never did.
I was more...
I went for walks with older ladies.
I never did.
No.
That never occurred to me: "The welfare state takes care of the elderly."
How nice! You really did?
Is was because I thought it was nice.
I go to a cafe to meet one of the first openly lesbian women in Norway.
How does she recall her childhood?
I was always very boyish as a child.
I really wanted a boys name. So I daily called myself "Viggo".
Of all the names you chose Viggo.
Viggo, Vigdis...
I was very active physically.
In what was at that time called games for boys.
I liked that a lot.
Many adult homosexuals say that they were different as kids.
But if you're a feminine boy or a masculine girl,-
-does that make it more likely that you later will become homosexual?
Glenn Wilson is a psychologist and a professor at King's College London.
And he has read studies were they have observed groups of children-
-from childhood to adulthood.
But a father with a feminine son,-
-can he make a boy hetero by forcing him to do boys stuff?
Like LeVay, Wilson says you have to go to the fetal life-
-to understand why some like men and some women.
In the fetal life the brains of girls and boys are similar-
-until between the 8th and the 12th week.
But then the boy's brain is showered with testosterone-
-which switches it to a male mode.
The theory is that gay boys got a little less testosterone in the fetal life.
And therefore are a bit more similar to girls.
That's perhaps why gay men are worse at reading maps than heterosexual men.
Until now it's been a medical mystery-
-that has created one of our times biggest debates.
"Is there a gene that decides whether you are homosexual or heterosexual?"
But if sexual orientation is already created in the fetal life,-
-does that mean that homosexuality is hereditary?
Does a form for home gene exist?
You are identical twins. And both are gay.
Are you born gay, or do you become gay?
I'm convinced that you are born that way.
I know several people who has a cousin...
I'm convinced that it's in the genes.
So there are several in your family who are gay?
We have a lesbian sister too.
A 50 % chance. But identical twins are 100 % genetically similar.
So it can't be just about genes.
We don't know exactly how and why these genes are switched on and off.
And no-one has the final answer.
But research indicates-
-that there are something biological that decides your sexual preference.
Maybe homosexuals are a mosaic male and female traits.
And that there actually is a reason for why many gay men are seen as a little more feminine.
And many lesbians as a little more masculine.
I think back on my last meeting with the Norwegian homosexuality researchers and their view on the biological science.
None... none studies have managed to prove biological reasons. Not a single one.
But it's such weak and marginal research...
It carries no weight.
But they have such strong beliefs.
First I invite Agnes Bolsoe to my office to get her assessment of my findings.
Bolsoe thinks, unlike Wilson, that it's impossible to tell if a child will become gay.
What does she think of these studies?
You don't take this seriously, do you?
Is it hard to take seriously?
Yes, I think it's very hard to take seriously.
Because the premise is just nonsense to me.
I am hesitant to comment on-
-those studies without seeing what they actually have done.
I've had some fun doing that lately.
But how do you know...
Just try to look at under what kinds of conditions he produced the results.
How were the observations made?
What is the sample? What kinds of analysis terms does he use?
But I want to ask...
And what you find then, is what we call rubbish.
In plain Norwegian. Unfortunately.
Which science do you base that on when you say that one cannot tell with children-
-if they are going to be gay or hetero?
I was once a child myself.
So you look at yourself?
No-one said anything about me going to be gay.
But you base it on more than yourself?
I have friends that have the same experience.
But science. Not just talking with...
And I didn't become gay. Right.
The point is that the assumptions to these studies is like jelly.
There is a whole wave with studies that in all kind of various ways try to find/spot-
-and pin to the wall the homosexual.
But Vignis and Folkestad said they felt different as kids.
Yes, yes.
Why not see if there's a pattern?
It probably a pattern. And so what?
So you think there's a pattern?
It's a possibility.
But the question is. How interesting is that?
And what... No, it's not interesting because...
I think it is interesting. Because it can tell us that gays perhaps are a mosaic of male..
Do you have a masculine job?
No, not typically.
But are you gay?
No.
Okay...
But his was a pattern.
Yes...
But you don't think it's interesting that gay men are less interested in-
-working with engineer things than..
I fail to see how those studies have any interest.
And one must, again, we have to see his questionnaire.
I become unsure if Bolsoe thinks the studies are bad,-
-uninteresting or morally reprehensible.
But what about Lorentzen?
I show him Levay talking about studies that point towards gay men being more similar to women in sense of space.
How does he think there differences occur if they are not innate?
It could be-
-so, when a man or a boy decides to live as a heterosexually. Right.
When he comes out of the closet as you say. Right.
As a homosexual it can happen that he wants do distance himself from an unwanted masculinity.
How do you know that there are no innate differences in gay men?
That they have a little more feminine orientation...
Because it's not proven.
In short, there is nothing...
So you don't have more scientific evidence to say that gay men are not more feminine-
-than they have for saying that they are?
I have no basis to say either the one or the other. I don't have that.
But it's not interesting either!
It's more interesting how we, as a society, regard homosexuality.
That's too...
That's the most important!
Because the tolerance of homosexuality is the most important thing to study.
Because it says something about the level of democracy in a society.
And the level of tolerance in the individual. Correct?
That one accepts diversity.
I completely agree that respect for gays is the most important thing.
But I don't understand why there is a contrast between tolerance on the one side,-
-and biological research on the other side?
The skepticism the Norwegian researchers have against biology-
-to me it seems both unscientific, and base on a misunderstanding-
-that biological research stigmatizes gays.