Brainwash (2010–…): Season 1, Episode 1 - Likestillingsparadokset - full transcript
Can I ask you a few questions?
No.
This is not a joke.
It's a serious program.
I doubt that when I see you.
What is this being used for?
I'll go over there instead.
What country has the most equality in the world?
I don't know.
What will I do in the future?
This was for the boys.
The kitchen is Norway's biggest workplace.
A bit of sleep will do fine.
We have accepted that the gender differences do not lie in the head.
Women aren't as one-track minded.
Women are from Mars, men from Venus. Or was it the opposite?
Characteristics of women and characteristics of men.
- More and more women study medicine.
Worlds best on genders equality.
We've got a long way to go!
Young people's choices are more traditional now than 15 years ago.
It's strange.
It's a mystery.
I'm thinking: "If I only could explain the reason..."
This is me. And this is my male baldness pattern.
Usually I'm here with Baard and Atle, making up jokes.
But today I'm going to make up but find out of things.
Instead of joking about the society I will try to understand it.
In 2008 Norway was chosen as the country with the most gender equality.
Norwegian women have gone form being housewifes,-
- to becoming teachers, doctors, lawyers...
I might seem strict...
Party leaders...
We have to make the right choices!
And prime ministers.
This must stop..
Or janitors.
I'm the janitor here!
Are you the janitor? You're a woman, and they don't know that stuff!
But there are a few things that just don't seem right in "equal" Norway.
I thought we were at the point where everyone do what they want.
Therefore there are women and men in all professions. But it's not so.
Let's first visit a company where most of the employees are men.
Where are the engineers now?
I think the cafeteria.
What's the percent of female engineers in this company?
10 percent.
It's most likely mostly male engineers here.
Will it ever become fifty-fifty?
I doubt it.
Construction is a male thing.
What do you mean by that?
You get dirty... To build up and knock down... That's a male thing.
It sounds old fashioned to me that male and female stuff still exists.
But let's go to a place where they do so-called female things.
Asker and Baerum Hospital.
Is this the lunch room?
Yes, welcome.
Hi! Are there no men here?
No.
Unless you define yourself as a man.
But there are no male nurses here?
No. We've had them before.
But they are here for very short periods.
The genders in the world's most equal country still don't share jobs.
A report states that almost 90% of all nurses in Norway are female-
- but only 10% of all engineers are female.
It's been this way since the 80s.
"The division of gender in the workplace is astoundingly stable."
This is called "The Norwegian gender equality paradox."
The government has for years tried to recruit male nurses-
- and female engineers.
Kristin Mille was the Equal Opportunities Commissioner.
She sayd these measures didn't change things.
You get one- or two-year effect. And the it falls again.
So what's the reason?
Let's first exclude some explanations.
It's not discrimination?
No, it's not htat.
Former equality cabinet minister Huitfeldt says girls do better in school.
Girls do better in all courses except physical education.
So why do so few women want to work as engineers or in technical fields?
It seems boring.
But working with computers, systems.
It's a professional challenge.
Yeah, but it's not as exciting as working with people and talking.
Do girls generally find technical stuff boring?
We will now visit someone who has asked 15-year-olds all over the world-
-what they want to learn more about.
Hello! This was nice!
Wow, you're so tanned.
At the University of Oslo they want to find out why so few girls study scientific subjects.
Camilla Schreiner has done an inquiry in 20 countries.
And she found out that girls in less egalitarian countries are more interested are more interested in learning about technical things.
-than Norwegian girls.
I would think that if the society was more equal the genders would have more equal interests.
In this part of the inquiry there are 108 questions.
None of them show the pattern you describe.
None of them show what you describe that the more modern a country is-
- the more similar the genders' interests are.
The more modern a country is, the less girls are into technical stuff.
Yes, it's good that you take notes.
Yes, that's important.
Why are girls in our country of equality-
-so disinterested in technical subjects?
It's always been the owman's job to take care of the children.
The society and cultural influence is one of the explanations offered.
Others think the reason is even more basic.
I think it's in the genes.
Girls and boys are born different?
Yes, I'am pretty sure of that.
I think there are gender differences.
And I think we want to be more equal but we are not more equal than we are.
It's in us.
The other explanation is therefore that guys and girls are born with different interests.
Can this be about something in us?
You often read that women and men have different brains.
Could there be innate differences that can explain-
-why men and women work with different things?
I visit Cathrine Egeland at the Work Research Insitute.
She has written several reports on the gender's choice of professions.
In popular science you read that the males and female brain is different.
What do you think about that?
Cathrine Egeland - Gender researcher.
I don't know if there's any truth in that.
But it's striking how interested people are in finding those differences.
But you aren't...
No, it is very uninteresting.
So it's not relevant to study brain differences-
-to understand why men more often become engineers?
No, I don't think so... or no.
Hello. A firm handshake.
The detective work leads me to gender researcher Joargen Lorenzten-
-at the Center of Interdisciplinary Gender Research at Oslo University.
You can read about male and female brain differences. What do you say to that?
I think that's old-fashioned research.
Most of that kind of research have been refuted in later studies.
Most people nowadays don't say that our brains are different.
So the differences are just in the genitalia?
Also breasts, hair, height, muscle mass and similar things.
But for everything outside of that there are no differences.
Feelings, interests...
... emotions, yes...
Intelligence, capacity... that's basically identical.
Norwegian researchers don't think innate gender differences-
-are relevant in understanding why the guys and girls are interested in different things.
But if we're born equal, what about Camilla Schreiner's inquiry?
It shows that the gender roles still are deeply rooted among the young.
Lorenzen believes children adsorb the expectations for what boys and girls should do.
We systematically treat girls and boys differently - from day 1.
The studies where you dress the girl in blue and the boy in pink.
People go to the girl and say: "You're cute..."
Do they?
From the color.
Martine Aurbal - Columnist in Dagbladet.
A baby is there with a pink blanket. Grown-ups come and say:
"Uhhh, what a beautiful princess!" What a nice baby.!
And if the baby has a blue blanket. A guy will come by and say: "What a tough little guy..."
"You're going to be a strapping lad."
Is it that way still?
Yes! It is actually still like that. Yes.
Yes. It's probably so, even if we think we treat all babies equal.
But how for example was I treated?
This is where i grew up. This is Heggebærstien.
Hi mom.
Hi! Nice of you to come. Come in!
When I was small, did you say: "What a tough and strapping lad!"?
No, I never said that. That little bundle...
I never said that.
Was I tough?
No, I didn't think of you as tough.
And neither do I feel that I treat my girls differently just because they are girls.
What gender are you? Girls or boys, I don't remember.
Dad!
We are girls.
I'm not concerned with what gender people are, just who they are.
But I'a a girl!
Most feel they treat people equal.
Yes. What I'm trying to say, is that without it being explicitly said,-
-it could be that we still expect different things for girls and boys.
And accordingly treat them differently. Without thinking of it.
It's just things that are happening.
We don't think about it. And then we influence them.
But the influence is not just from parents.
Just go into a toy store.
See what the toy store feels girls and boys should want.
The toy industry has given children an obvious notion-
-or what are toys for girls and toys for boys.
Do you like this one?
It's for girls.
What about that one?
It's for girls.
That one.
Was that one nice?
What does he like to play with?
Balls and cars.
It's not just the toy industry. The environment affects us constantly.
This confirms the male role. Males see a figure like this digging.
The women think that they can't do those things.. Constant influences - all the time.
If girls and boys were treated equal from the start,-
-they would develop similar interests?
Yes, that's the implication of what I'm saying.
If girls and boys are met with equal expectations,-
-then the differences in interests would also disappear.
Do you think that this is mountable that there are societies where the opposite is true?
So, I feel that this is almost the basic theorem.
We are, as you say, mountable and movable.
There are no limits to what men can do. Or women can do.
-in relation to what's important. And that is behavior and emotionality.
Bjoerg, Randi and Signe are welders at Rosenbarg Shipyards.
Yeah, of cause. Women and men can do anything, if they really want to.
But do cultures exist where women want to work with technical things-
-and men want to work with people?
No-one has managed to compare all cultures.
But, psychology professor, Richard Lippa, has in cooperation with BBC,-
-conducted an enormous survey on the internet.
I decide to meet Mr. Lippa.
But, can a British-American survey shed light on-
-the Norwegian equality paradox?
Lorentzen was sceptical to this kind of research.
It's a funny study... You're laughing as I say the word "study".
You are bombarded with studies.
I get calls from every media-
-when they get these American studies. They're often American.
Often American?
Often American, yeah.
Are Americans especially good?
No, they are especially poor!, I would say.
Or especially speculative. Or that it's especially many doing research.
Yes, there are lots of odd studies in the USA.
But I've still decided to give the Americans a chance.
It's common that surveys have a few thousand respondents.
But Lippa has gotten answers from over 200.000 women and men in 58 countries.
From Europe, the Americas, Africa and Asia.
In all of these countries men and women were asked what they asked what they wanted to work with.
And what did he find?
But what does Lippa think the reasons are for these cross-cultural differences?
Could there be a biological element here?
Lippa's studies suggest that there are innate differences.
But it's not a proof.
How early can you spot differences in interests between girls and boys.
Most of us notice that girls and boys play with different things.
But professor Trond Diseth at the National Hospital has systematically studied this.
He has developed a test to see if there are gender differences and how early they mind show.
Harald Eia, Welcome to the section for child psychiatry.
Trond Diseth is a professor and the medical director for this department.
He works with children born with deformed genitals.
In the process of determining the gender, he uses a play test.
We've difined 10 different toys.
There are 4 feminine toys.
There are 4 masculine defined toys.
And then there are the so-called neutral toys.
These 10 toys are placed in a pattern.
Then we observe and videotape.
And observe children touching the toys.
We see clear differences between healthy girls and boys-
-from the age nine months.
Boys choose masculine toys.
Girls choose feminine toys.
That girls and boys want different toys from 9 month old-
-could be a result of already being influenced by gender roles.
But Diseth doesn't believe so.
Children are borne with a clear biological disposition.
As far as gender roles, identity and behavior.
And then the environment, expectations and values around us-
-either enhance or tone down that.
I was thinking. Society can push this a bit, but only so far.
Yes. Not decisive in changing-
-the inherent identity and disposition for gender behavior.
I find the video to show Diseth parts of the interview with Lorentzen.
In spite of technical problems, Diseth hears Lorentzen's gender differences skepticism.
I have to hold it to my ear. The sound is bad.
You can read about male and female brain differences. What do you say to that?
I think that's old-fashioned research.
Most of that kind of research have been refuted in later studies.
Most people nowadays don't say that our brains are different.
Yes.
He says it's old-fashioned.
Are you doing old-fashioned research?
I hear he says that, and I would strongly reject that.
I have lost of studies and publications that are very recent.
From this year and from 2008, 2007 and 2006.
They have a totally different and clear message.
So it's not old-fashioned, it's cutting-edge research.
Okay, this is word against word. And what Diseth showed me were not a proof.
But are there even earlier signs of gender differences?
Simon Baron-Cohen is a British professor of psychiatry.
And he has done groundbreaking experiments on newborn children.
And to talk to him, I have to go where my parents couldn't afford to send me to study.
To Cambridge, and the legendary and the distinguished Trinity College.
It was found in 1546, and has won 32 Nobel Prizes.
Issac Newton and Ludwig Wittgenstein belonged to Trinity College.
This is British research and science at it's best.
I'll use the entrance for the common people.
Wow!
It's nice here.
But it's nicer at Blindern.
Simon Baron-Cohen is an expert on autism.
Coincidentally he has discovered important differences between guys and girls-
-from the very birth.
What's especially fun for me with professor Baron-Cohen-
-is that he's the cousin of Sacha Baron Cohen.
Who played Borat and Ali G, and Bruno.
They're a talented family. Both good at comedy and science.
I notice the professor hasn't learned much about TV from his cousin.
I ask him to tell me about the experiment he did on newborn babies.
Baron-Cohen's findings suggest that these differences are created before-
the child is born. In the womb.
But how does he know that it's the testosterone level in the womb that creates this?
So many differences are the result of dissimilar testosterone levels.
But what happens when a foetus of a girl receives to much testosterone?
The testosterone level gives us early different interests and qualities.
But does the effect last?
It seems that differences in hormone levels create many of the differences we see between guys and girls.
The levels are guided by different genes on the Z- and Y-chromosome.
But why are there these genetic differences?
Where are these different genes from?
To find the answer, we must go back in time, to the dawn of the human history.
NRK can't afford to send me back in time.
But they can afford to send me to professor Anne Campbell.
She works in Durham in Northern England.
And she can tell us something about why we have the genes we have.
Anne Campbell is an evolutionary psychologist.
She studies not just how our body but also how our psyche is influenced by evolution.
She's a researcher, and has researched my original occupation.
Anne Campbell understands the human being according to Charles Darwin's theory.
That our traits are a result of a long process of selection.
So why has evolution made females and males different?
According to Campbell, it is probably because of this that today's women-
-are more oriented towards other people than men.
Men and women in 2010 are still influenced by genes that were developed hundred of thousands years ago.
I'm thinking that evolution is important, but today's differences-
-must be explained by our different treatment of girls and boys.
Now it's time to summarize. Can those that say that there are inherent differences-
-between guys and girls that give them their interests, be right?
I feel that there are a few things pointing in that direction.
But if the gender difference lie in the genes and the hormones,-
-why do girls in countries with less equality have a bigger want to study technology than girls in Norway?
Maybe this is the solution to the equality paradox.
In a free and equal society, men and women will become unequal.
Because they have the opportunity to cultivate their particular interests.
Before I go home to Norway, I wonder how Campbell will react to Lorentzen theory.
So the differences are just in the genitalia?
Everything that does not have anything to do with the reproductive system.
Everything, apart from that. Breasts, hair, height, muscles and a few other things.
But for everything outside of that there are no differences.
Feelings, interests...
Nationality, yes... for example.
Interests...
Intelligence, capacity...
It's basically the same.
What the English researchers say, is on a collision course with-
-with what the Norwegian gender researchers claim.
I'm looking forward to going back to Norway to hear what the Norwegians think of these findings.
First I'm meeting science leader at the Work Research Institute, Cathrine Egeland.
I show her Baron-Cohen's studies on the newborn.
And I tell her about Dieseth's studies that show boys and girls-
-prefer different toys from already the age of nine months.
What does she think about these findings?
When he observes this, he's seeing what he's looking for.
He want's to see that there are gender differences and that they are inborn.
Okay, so he finds what he's looking for?
Yes, that's what I think.
I think that it is interesting to see how much energy one can spend-
-to try to explain something like for example gender differences biologically.
I feel that they say it's an element of biology here, and also of culture.
Yes.
But you think it's only culture.
Yes.
When you see the research on the newborn babies, does it change your view-
-that equal treatment would lead them to have similar interests?
No, it doesn't change that.
No.
What are your scientific basis to say that biology-
-plays no part in the two genders' choice of work?
Mmmm... my scientific basis?
I have what you would call a theoretical basis.
There's no room for biology in there for me.
So...
That would... And I feel that social sciences should challenge-
-thinking that is based on the differences between humans.
-being biological.
Is it the social science's task to challenge biological thinking?
Shouldn't science find out why things are the way they are?
Couldn't people like Egeland just see what she wants to see if she has determined-
-that biology has no relevance?
What about Lorentzen? Does he think this is interesting?
The fascinating thing with this science,-
-is why they are so concerned with trying to find-
-the biological origin to gender? Why this frenetic concern?
You say there are no innate differences that explains interests.
What do you base it on?
I must rely on science, right?, when I try to explain the relations here.
So far science hasn't been able to prove a genetic origin-
-to gender differences, outside of the reproductive organs.
Because you don't recognize that studies show this.
But they have a missing link!
How do you know it's not innate? That's what I don't understand.
But I say that in the moment they can say for sure...
You said that there are no important innate differences in feelings, interests and stuff like that...
How do you know there are none?
My hypothesis is that there are none. Science hasn't shown any differences, right?
Then I must work from that level...
But you presume there are no differences until the opposite is proven?
For example, yes.
This is interesting. And these aren't good...
I would call this a weak study.
Is everything the others do "weak studies"?
Would he find it as weak if it fit in well with his theories?
Lorenzen says that other scientists are frenetically concerned with biological explanations.
But I didn't see them as very frenetic.
They didn't say that everything was about biology. On the contrary,-
-it was the Norwegian gender scientists who said that nothing was about biology.
Why are they so cocksure? And is it so dangerous with elements of biology?
But most importantly, can you, as a scientist, understand the world-
-if you don't consider every possibility?
No.
This is not a joke.
It's a serious program.
I doubt that when I see you.
What is this being used for?
I'll go over there instead.
What country has the most equality in the world?
I don't know.
What will I do in the future?
This was for the boys.
The kitchen is Norway's biggest workplace.
A bit of sleep will do fine.
We have accepted that the gender differences do not lie in the head.
Women aren't as one-track minded.
Women are from Mars, men from Venus. Or was it the opposite?
Characteristics of women and characteristics of men.
- More and more women study medicine.
Worlds best on genders equality.
We've got a long way to go!
Young people's choices are more traditional now than 15 years ago.
It's strange.
It's a mystery.
I'm thinking: "If I only could explain the reason..."
This is me. And this is my male baldness pattern.
Usually I'm here with Baard and Atle, making up jokes.
But today I'm going to make up but find out of things.
Instead of joking about the society I will try to understand it.
In 2008 Norway was chosen as the country with the most gender equality.
Norwegian women have gone form being housewifes,-
- to becoming teachers, doctors, lawyers...
I might seem strict...
Party leaders...
We have to make the right choices!
And prime ministers.
This must stop..
Or janitors.
I'm the janitor here!
Are you the janitor? You're a woman, and they don't know that stuff!
But there are a few things that just don't seem right in "equal" Norway.
I thought we were at the point where everyone do what they want.
Therefore there are women and men in all professions. But it's not so.
Let's first visit a company where most of the employees are men.
Where are the engineers now?
I think the cafeteria.
What's the percent of female engineers in this company?
10 percent.
It's most likely mostly male engineers here.
Will it ever become fifty-fifty?
I doubt it.
Construction is a male thing.
What do you mean by that?
You get dirty... To build up and knock down... That's a male thing.
It sounds old fashioned to me that male and female stuff still exists.
But let's go to a place where they do so-called female things.
Asker and Baerum Hospital.
Is this the lunch room?
Yes, welcome.
Hi! Are there no men here?
No.
Unless you define yourself as a man.
But there are no male nurses here?
No. We've had them before.
But they are here for very short periods.
The genders in the world's most equal country still don't share jobs.
A report states that almost 90% of all nurses in Norway are female-
- but only 10% of all engineers are female.
It's been this way since the 80s.
"The division of gender in the workplace is astoundingly stable."
This is called "The Norwegian gender equality paradox."
The government has for years tried to recruit male nurses-
- and female engineers.
Kristin Mille was the Equal Opportunities Commissioner.
She sayd these measures didn't change things.
You get one- or two-year effect. And the it falls again.
So what's the reason?
Let's first exclude some explanations.
It's not discrimination?
No, it's not htat.
Former equality cabinet minister Huitfeldt says girls do better in school.
Girls do better in all courses except physical education.
So why do so few women want to work as engineers or in technical fields?
It seems boring.
But working with computers, systems.
It's a professional challenge.
Yeah, but it's not as exciting as working with people and talking.
Do girls generally find technical stuff boring?
We will now visit someone who has asked 15-year-olds all over the world-
-what they want to learn more about.
Hello! This was nice!
Wow, you're so tanned.
At the University of Oslo they want to find out why so few girls study scientific subjects.
Camilla Schreiner has done an inquiry in 20 countries.
And she found out that girls in less egalitarian countries are more interested are more interested in learning about technical things.
-than Norwegian girls.
I would think that if the society was more equal the genders would have more equal interests.
In this part of the inquiry there are 108 questions.
None of them show the pattern you describe.
None of them show what you describe that the more modern a country is-
- the more similar the genders' interests are.
The more modern a country is, the less girls are into technical stuff.
Yes, it's good that you take notes.
Yes, that's important.
Why are girls in our country of equality-
-so disinterested in technical subjects?
It's always been the owman's job to take care of the children.
The society and cultural influence is one of the explanations offered.
Others think the reason is even more basic.
I think it's in the genes.
Girls and boys are born different?
Yes, I'am pretty sure of that.
I think there are gender differences.
And I think we want to be more equal but we are not more equal than we are.
It's in us.
The other explanation is therefore that guys and girls are born with different interests.
Can this be about something in us?
You often read that women and men have different brains.
Could there be innate differences that can explain-
-why men and women work with different things?
I visit Cathrine Egeland at the Work Research Insitute.
She has written several reports on the gender's choice of professions.
In popular science you read that the males and female brain is different.
What do you think about that?
Cathrine Egeland - Gender researcher.
I don't know if there's any truth in that.
But it's striking how interested people are in finding those differences.
But you aren't...
No, it is very uninteresting.
So it's not relevant to study brain differences-
-to understand why men more often become engineers?
No, I don't think so... or no.
Hello. A firm handshake.
The detective work leads me to gender researcher Joargen Lorenzten-
-at the Center of Interdisciplinary Gender Research at Oslo University.
You can read about male and female brain differences. What do you say to that?
I think that's old-fashioned research.
Most of that kind of research have been refuted in later studies.
Most people nowadays don't say that our brains are different.
So the differences are just in the genitalia?
Also breasts, hair, height, muscle mass and similar things.
But for everything outside of that there are no differences.
Feelings, interests...
... emotions, yes...
Intelligence, capacity... that's basically identical.
Norwegian researchers don't think innate gender differences-
-are relevant in understanding why the guys and girls are interested in different things.
But if we're born equal, what about Camilla Schreiner's inquiry?
It shows that the gender roles still are deeply rooted among the young.
Lorenzen believes children adsorb the expectations for what boys and girls should do.
We systematically treat girls and boys differently - from day 1.
The studies where you dress the girl in blue and the boy in pink.
People go to the girl and say: "You're cute..."
Do they?
From the color.
Martine Aurbal - Columnist in Dagbladet.
A baby is there with a pink blanket. Grown-ups come and say:
"Uhhh, what a beautiful princess!" What a nice baby.!
And if the baby has a blue blanket. A guy will come by and say: "What a tough little guy..."
"You're going to be a strapping lad."
Is it that way still?
Yes! It is actually still like that. Yes.
Yes. It's probably so, even if we think we treat all babies equal.
But how for example was I treated?
This is where i grew up. This is Heggebærstien.
Hi mom.
Hi! Nice of you to come. Come in!
When I was small, did you say: "What a tough and strapping lad!"?
No, I never said that. That little bundle...
I never said that.
Was I tough?
No, I didn't think of you as tough.
And neither do I feel that I treat my girls differently just because they are girls.
What gender are you? Girls or boys, I don't remember.
Dad!
We are girls.
I'm not concerned with what gender people are, just who they are.
But I'a a girl!
Most feel they treat people equal.
Yes. What I'm trying to say, is that without it being explicitly said,-
-it could be that we still expect different things for girls and boys.
And accordingly treat them differently. Without thinking of it.
It's just things that are happening.
We don't think about it. And then we influence them.
But the influence is not just from parents.
Just go into a toy store.
See what the toy store feels girls and boys should want.
The toy industry has given children an obvious notion-
-or what are toys for girls and toys for boys.
Do you like this one?
It's for girls.
What about that one?
It's for girls.
That one.
Was that one nice?
What does he like to play with?
Balls and cars.
It's not just the toy industry. The environment affects us constantly.
This confirms the male role. Males see a figure like this digging.
The women think that they can't do those things.. Constant influences - all the time.
If girls and boys were treated equal from the start,-
-they would develop similar interests?
Yes, that's the implication of what I'm saying.
If girls and boys are met with equal expectations,-
-then the differences in interests would also disappear.
Do you think that this is mountable that there are societies where the opposite is true?
So, I feel that this is almost the basic theorem.
We are, as you say, mountable and movable.
There are no limits to what men can do. Or women can do.
-in relation to what's important. And that is behavior and emotionality.
Bjoerg, Randi and Signe are welders at Rosenbarg Shipyards.
Yeah, of cause. Women and men can do anything, if they really want to.
But do cultures exist where women want to work with technical things-
-and men want to work with people?
No-one has managed to compare all cultures.
But, psychology professor, Richard Lippa, has in cooperation with BBC,-
-conducted an enormous survey on the internet.
I decide to meet Mr. Lippa.
But, can a British-American survey shed light on-
-the Norwegian equality paradox?
Lorentzen was sceptical to this kind of research.
It's a funny study... You're laughing as I say the word "study".
You are bombarded with studies.
I get calls from every media-
-when they get these American studies. They're often American.
Often American?
Often American, yeah.
Are Americans especially good?
No, they are especially poor!, I would say.
Or especially speculative. Or that it's especially many doing research.
Yes, there are lots of odd studies in the USA.
But I've still decided to give the Americans a chance.
It's common that surveys have a few thousand respondents.
But Lippa has gotten answers from over 200.000 women and men in 58 countries.
From Europe, the Americas, Africa and Asia.
In all of these countries men and women were asked what they asked what they wanted to work with.
And what did he find?
But what does Lippa think the reasons are for these cross-cultural differences?
Could there be a biological element here?
Lippa's studies suggest that there are innate differences.
But it's not a proof.
How early can you spot differences in interests between girls and boys.
Most of us notice that girls and boys play with different things.
But professor Trond Diseth at the National Hospital has systematically studied this.
He has developed a test to see if there are gender differences and how early they mind show.
Harald Eia, Welcome to the section for child psychiatry.
Trond Diseth is a professor and the medical director for this department.
He works with children born with deformed genitals.
In the process of determining the gender, he uses a play test.
We've difined 10 different toys.
There are 4 feminine toys.
There are 4 masculine defined toys.
And then there are the so-called neutral toys.
These 10 toys are placed in a pattern.
Then we observe and videotape.
And observe children touching the toys.
We see clear differences between healthy girls and boys-
-from the age nine months.
Boys choose masculine toys.
Girls choose feminine toys.
That girls and boys want different toys from 9 month old-
-could be a result of already being influenced by gender roles.
But Diseth doesn't believe so.
Children are borne with a clear biological disposition.
As far as gender roles, identity and behavior.
And then the environment, expectations and values around us-
-either enhance or tone down that.
I was thinking. Society can push this a bit, but only so far.
Yes. Not decisive in changing-
-the inherent identity and disposition for gender behavior.
I find the video to show Diseth parts of the interview with Lorentzen.
In spite of technical problems, Diseth hears Lorentzen's gender differences skepticism.
I have to hold it to my ear. The sound is bad.
You can read about male and female brain differences. What do you say to that?
I think that's old-fashioned research.
Most of that kind of research have been refuted in later studies.
Most people nowadays don't say that our brains are different.
Yes.
He says it's old-fashioned.
Are you doing old-fashioned research?
I hear he says that, and I would strongly reject that.
I have lost of studies and publications that are very recent.
From this year and from 2008, 2007 and 2006.
They have a totally different and clear message.
So it's not old-fashioned, it's cutting-edge research.
Okay, this is word against word. And what Diseth showed me were not a proof.
But are there even earlier signs of gender differences?
Simon Baron-Cohen is a British professor of psychiatry.
And he has done groundbreaking experiments on newborn children.
And to talk to him, I have to go where my parents couldn't afford to send me to study.
To Cambridge, and the legendary and the distinguished Trinity College.
It was found in 1546, and has won 32 Nobel Prizes.
Issac Newton and Ludwig Wittgenstein belonged to Trinity College.
This is British research and science at it's best.
I'll use the entrance for the common people.
Wow!
It's nice here.
But it's nicer at Blindern.
Simon Baron-Cohen is an expert on autism.
Coincidentally he has discovered important differences between guys and girls-
-from the very birth.
What's especially fun for me with professor Baron-Cohen-
-is that he's the cousin of Sacha Baron Cohen.
Who played Borat and Ali G, and Bruno.
They're a talented family. Both good at comedy and science.
I notice the professor hasn't learned much about TV from his cousin.
I ask him to tell me about the experiment he did on newborn babies.
Baron-Cohen's findings suggest that these differences are created before-
the child is born. In the womb.
But how does he know that it's the testosterone level in the womb that creates this?
So many differences are the result of dissimilar testosterone levels.
But what happens when a foetus of a girl receives to much testosterone?
The testosterone level gives us early different interests and qualities.
But does the effect last?
It seems that differences in hormone levels create many of the differences we see between guys and girls.
The levels are guided by different genes on the Z- and Y-chromosome.
But why are there these genetic differences?
Where are these different genes from?
To find the answer, we must go back in time, to the dawn of the human history.
NRK can't afford to send me back in time.
But they can afford to send me to professor Anne Campbell.
She works in Durham in Northern England.
And she can tell us something about why we have the genes we have.
Anne Campbell is an evolutionary psychologist.
She studies not just how our body but also how our psyche is influenced by evolution.
She's a researcher, and has researched my original occupation.
Anne Campbell understands the human being according to Charles Darwin's theory.
That our traits are a result of a long process of selection.
So why has evolution made females and males different?
According to Campbell, it is probably because of this that today's women-
-are more oriented towards other people than men.
Men and women in 2010 are still influenced by genes that were developed hundred of thousands years ago.
I'm thinking that evolution is important, but today's differences-
-must be explained by our different treatment of girls and boys.
Now it's time to summarize. Can those that say that there are inherent differences-
-between guys and girls that give them their interests, be right?
I feel that there are a few things pointing in that direction.
But if the gender difference lie in the genes and the hormones,-
-why do girls in countries with less equality have a bigger want to study technology than girls in Norway?
Maybe this is the solution to the equality paradox.
In a free and equal society, men and women will become unequal.
Because they have the opportunity to cultivate their particular interests.
Before I go home to Norway, I wonder how Campbell will react to Lorentzen theory.
So the differences are just in the genitalia?
Everything that does not have anything to do with the reproductive system.
Everything, apart from that. Breasts, hair, height, muscles and a few other things.
But for everything outside of that there are no differences.
Feelings, interests...
Nationality, yes... for example.
Interests...
Intelligence, capacity...
It's basically the same.
What the English researchers say, is on a collision course with-
-with what the Norwegian gender researchers claim.
I'm looking forward to going back to Norway to hear what the Norwegians think of these findings.
First I'm meeting science leader at the Work Research Institute, Cathrine Egeland.
I show her Baron-Cohen's studies on the newborn.
And I tell her about Dieseth's studies that show boys and girls-
-prefer different toys from already the age of nine months.
What does she think about these findings?
When he observes this, he's seeing what he's looking for.
He want's to see that there are gender differences and that they are inborn.
Okay, so he finds what he's looking for?
Yes, that's what I think.
I think that it is interesting to see how much energy one can spend-
-to try to explain something like for example gender differences biologically.
I feel that they say it's an element of biology here, and also of culture.
Yes.
But you think it's only culture.
Yes.
When you see the research on the newborn babies, does it change your view-
-that equal treatment would lead them to have similar interests?
No, it doesn't change that.
No.
What are your scientific basis to say that biology-
-plays no part in the two genders' choice of work?
Mmmm... my scientific basis?
I have what you would call a theoretical basis.
There's no room for biology in there for me.
So...
That would... And I feel that social sciences should challenge-
-thinking that is based on the differences between humans.
-being biological.
Is it the social science's task to challenge biological thinking?
Shouldn't science find out why things are the way they are?
Couldn't people like Egeland just see what she wants to see if she has determined-
-that biology has no relevance?
What about Lorentzen? Does he think this is interesting?
The fascinating thing with this science,-
-is why they are so concerned with trying to find-
-the biological origin to gender? Why this frenetic concern?
You say there are no innate differences that explains interests.
What do you base it on?
I must rely on science, right?, when I try to explain the relations here.
So far science hasn't been able to prove a genetic origin-
-to gender differences, outside of the reproductive organs.
Because you don't recognize that studies show this.
But they have a missing link!
How do you know it's not innate? That's what I don't understand.
But I say that in the moment they can say for sure...
You said that there are no important innate differences in feelings, interests and stuff like that...
How do you know there are none?
My hypothesis is that there are none. Science hasn't shown any differences, right?
Then I must work from that level...
But you presume there are no differences until the opposite is proven?
For example, yes.
This is interesting. And these aren't good...
I would call this a weak study.
Is everything the others do "weak studies"?
Would he find it as weak if it fit in well with his theories?
Lorenzen says that other scientists are frenetically concerned with biological explanations.
But I didn't see them as very frenetic.
They didn't say that everything was about biology. On the contrary,-
-it was the Norwegian gender scientists who said that nothing was about biology.
Why are they so cocksure? And is it so dangerous with elements of biology?
But most importantly, can you, as a scientist, understand the world-
-if you don't consider every possibility?