A Wilderness of Error (2020): Season 1, Episode 3 - Chapter 3: - full transcript

Nine years after the murders of his pregnant wife and two young daughters, the guilt of Green Beret Dr. Jeffrey MacDonald is put to a civilian jury. The defense calls a surprise witness: The Girl in a Floppy Hat.

(phone ringing)

posey: I said, "well,
were you there? Did you do it?"

you know.
And she said, "I was there,

you know, but I didn't
do nothin'."

beasley: She said, "then I went
from one room to the next...

"and I saw the children

in each bedroom, and
they appeared to be dead."

gaddis: We caught her for
possession of drugs.

On the way down to booking,
she said that

she was involved in a murder

in fayetteville, north carolina.



Brisentine: What we have here
is a gal who screwed up.

You could never call her a liar.

But you can't call her

a truth-teller, either.

♪ ♪

morris:
Helena stoeckley
is what makes this story

so deeply bizarre.

She didn't confess
to one person...

Or two people...

Or three people or four people.

She confessed...

Many, many, many, many times

over a decade.

♪ ♪



the wife and two young
daughters of an army doctor

were found dead in their home
in fort bragg, north carolina.

Sam donaldson:
You may remember the crime
back in 1970.

One of america's most
sensational murder cases.

One of the most bizarre
murder cases.

Dan rather:
The most complicated
murder case

- in history.
- Macdonald says the murderers

were three men
and a woman shouting,

"acid is great.
Kill all the pigs."

it's a baffling story the more
you begin to look into it.

Jeffrey macdonald's life became
the subject of a book.

Barbara walters:
A popular miniseries.

A television movie
called fatal vision.

Reporter:
The best-seller
portrayed macdonald

as a cold-blooded killer.

Reporter 2:
Today, macdonald was sentenced

to three life terms in prison.

Man: Something really,
really bad happened here.

It was a miscarriage of justice.

I cannot overcome fatal vision.

Morris:
What happens when a narrative

takes the place of reality?

It's almost as if nothing
really happened in history

unless it has been
recorded in a movie

or in a television series.

Woman:
A new book by acclaimed
author and filmmaker

errol morris says that the case

may be more complicated
than previously thought.

Macdonald:
I did not hurt my wife
or my children.

Helena:
That evening I was wearing

a blonde wig and a floppy hat.

-Man: An innocent man
is in jail today.
-Mildred: The man is guilty

- as can be.
- I am innocent.

He's lucky I haven't
gone out and killed him.

Macdonald:
I am not that monster.

Newsman:
In raleigh, north carolina,

a former army doctor is on trial

for the murder of his family
back in 1970.

♪ ♪

newswoman:
This is the second time

dr. Macdonald has been charged
with the murders.

Dan rather:
A federal prosecutor
once called it

the most complicated
murder case in history.

I'm not gonna be found guilty.

I didn't see any evidence
that pointed to that,

and I know what happened
that night, and I'm not guilty.

How are you today?

Freddy: We've gone through

every legal means possible

to bring this man
to where we are today,

and that is in court,

charged with three counts
of premeditated murder.

Keeler: The start of this trial
that I've been building up to

over many years,
I'm tossing and turning

and having nightmares
about being late.

If you're an ocd person,
you don't want to be late.

Segal: We have already had
a full and fair hearing

in the military in 1970.

I mean, you can't ask
for more than what we did then.

And seems to me that one trial,
one proceeding is enough,

even though I'm confident
we can win again.

♪ ♪

masewicz: When he got indicted,

I was very excited.

In my mind,
it ranks right up there

with jack the ripper
and sharon tate,

ted bundy.

I-I mean, it's right up there.

I made an agreement
with my husband.

"I'm going to the trial."
"okay."

♪ ♪

keeler: "at exactly 9:45 a.M.,

"macdonald walked through the
wooden doors into the modern,

"air-conditioned
courtroom number one

that is to be his arena for
the next six to eight weeks."

(low, indistinct chatter)

bailiff: All rise.

♪ ♪

may it please the court,

ladies and gentlemen
of the jury,

my name is wade smith.

Smith: I met bernie
a few weeks before the trial.

He was very different
from north carolina lawyers.

That was okay with me.

This is a case about a family.

It is a story of happy people.

Yes.

Bernie and I had discussed it.

There was a certain way

that north carolina lawyers
would do this.

And I felt confident
I knew how to do it.

It's a story of good people:

A mother, a father
and two children,

five and two.

This was a good man.

A loving husband.

A father who loved his children.

A man who would never harm
his children.

We'll show you how they
had eagerly anticipated

the arrival of a new little one.

And then we will show you
how the whole thing,

in a matter of minutes, ended.

Ashes.

Ashes.

Keeler: "in a small locked cell
on the seventh floor

"of the federal building here,

"some of the most
important witnesses in the case

"of the united states
v. Jeffrey r. Macdonald

"sit in cardboard boxes,
plastic bags and vials waiting.

"those mute witnesses...
A bloody, blue pajama top

"filled with ice pick holes,
a bloody sheet,

"pieces of floor covered
with bloodstains...

"will become
the center of attention

"as the united states
seeks to prove

"that dr. Jeffrey macdonald
killed his wife

and two children
almost a decade ago."

♪ ♪

I wore that pajama top.

I went to the jail cell
where we kept it.

And tried it on.

I lay down on the, uh, sheet.

I wanted to feel them
and touch them,

so that when I saw them
at the trial

they would be friends of mine.

I had tried one case
in my life to a jury,

which was
a misdemeanor conviction,

of which the guy got
unsupervised probation

and $100 fine.

Ladies and gentlemen,
my name is jim blackburn.

I think we're going to make it
easy for you to understand

that the circumstantial
physical evidence in this case

points swiftly and unerringly

to the fact that one person
killed his family,

and that that person is
the defendant.

Mildred kassab used to say
she wanted the title

of the book about the case to be

the blue pajama top,
'cause that was

this critical piece of evidence.

Your honor, I would mark
for identification

government exhibit 306.

Macdonald claimed
that this pajama top

was pulled over his head,
around his wrists,

and it was stabbed through it
when macdonald was fighting

the intruders
in the living room.

There's a problem
with that argument

that's big enough
to drive a truck through.

We decided we were going to do
a courtroom demonstration.

I would ask you if this is
a reasonable facsimile

of the pajama top you used
in any of your experiments.

Reasonable, yes.

This same scene is later shown

during the tv series
fatal vision,

and it was perfect.

Brian puts it around his wrists,

and says to the jury,

(echoing character on tv):
"putting great trust
in mr. Blackburn."

gonna ask him
to get the ice pick

and come over and stab him.

Wade and bernie are giggling,

'cause they think
this is stupid.

(grunting)

two things happen immediately.

Ow!

I accidentally stab brian
in the wrist.

The significance of that is,

macdonald had no injuries
on his wrists.

The other thing is,

the holes shredded.

I would ask you to examine
that pajama top

and tell us what you see.

I see a number of tears,

and they do appear to be,
in fact, tears.

There were 48 holes
in macdonald's blue pajama top,

and they were perfectly round.

The other side quit giggling.

During the course of this trial,

we are going to show you,
ladies and gentlemen,

that those holes
in that pajama top

got in that pajama top
when it was in a stationary,

not a moving, position.

The way you win
a complicated murder trial

is you take
a complicated set of facts

and try to make them simple.

In the living room,

where he said
this struggle happened

and that his pajama top
was torn,

the only thing that was found
in the shag carpet

was a piece of christmas tinsel.

There were no threads.

I don't think
there was a single one

that matched that pajama top.

But there were dozens
of those threads

found in the master bedroom.

And, indeed, some of the threads

in the master bedroom
are found under colette's body.

How in the world
does that happen?

We know, from the evidence,
ladies and gentlemen,

that she fought.

She fought mighty hard
before she died.

Kimberley: Daddy! Daddy!

Blackburn:
You know those words,
"daddy, daddy, daddy, daddy."

I believe those words were said.

But I think you can infer
from the evidence

that were said as kimberley
came to the master bedroom

to find out what was going on
from her father and mother.

Threads from his pajama top are
found underneath the bedding

in kimberley's room.

We suggest that they came from
the blue pajama top itself,

as kimberley macdonald
was placed in that bed.

Colette's not dead.

By some miracle,
she is not dead.

Colette went to protect or see
what was happening to kristen.

After colette
went to kristen's room,

she was banged again with the
club and fell over and bled.

We know that at least one
thread matching the pajama top

and the splinter matching the
club were found in that room.

Macdonald took his wife colette
and laid her on the bedsheet.

There are massive amounts
of blood on that sheet.

There's a footprint
leaving that room.

How is that footprint made?

You can infer,
from the evidence,

that he made those footprints
as he exited that room.

Macdonald said that he never
went near the sheet,

never touched it.

"never touched it."

he had his piping
on his pajamas,

is found on that sheet,
in blood.

Macdonald dumps her, really,
on the floor

in the master bedroom, over
the threads that are there.

That's why she's on top
of the threads.

Things had simply
gone beyond repair.

You can't go back and make
the family happy again,

drink liquor
and watch johnny carson.

It has gone too far.

Then all bets are off
and everything changes.

Kristen is killed,
stabbed over 30 times.

And then, with colette,
he takes his pajama top off

and puts it on her chest

to contaminate
that piece of evidence,

as an explanation of why
her blood's on that pajama top.

And then stabs her.

Stabs her with the ice pick
through the pajama top.

The pajama top was
already on colette's chest.

I think you can find,
from the evidence,

that the defendant made
that terrible mistake

of stabbing colette
with the ice pick

through that blue pajama top.

And that is how
those holes got there.

Kimberley: Daddy! Daddy!

Blackburn:
The sad thing about this is,

macdonald could've stopped.

He didn't have to hit kimberley.

He didn't have to stab them.

He could've let kristen live.

He absolutely could've let
kristen live.

Now, it's true he would've lost
his medical license,

it's true he'd have been
dishonorably discharged

from the army, it's true he'd
have been criminally prosecuted

and gone to prison in disgrace.

But kristen would've lived.

That's a trade-off
that he chose not to make.

Host: Does it seem strange
to you that after a long period,

that no one else has been, uh,
either pursued or confessed,

uh, to this particular crime?

It's not really quite accurate

to say that no one
has confessed.

Keeler: "for nine years,

"helena stoeckley has been
an illusive specter

"haunting the jeffrey macdonald
murder case.

"macdonald's counsel
bernard l. Segal said,

'there are a whole series
of things that she will tell

that are central to this case.'"

malley:
Bernie wanted to subpoena her
as a material witness.

So they sent the fbi
out to get her.

There is an answer to this,

and the answer has nothing
to do with a pajama top.

This was the lady in the floppy
hat and the blonde wig.

I had wanted to meet her
for nine years.

Malley:
At some point, it became clear
that the game here wasn't

to prove that jeff was not
the kind of guy who did it,

but to prove helena did it.

(indistinct chatter)

masewicz:
I had heard so much
about helena stoeckley.

Who is this woman?

Well, here she come.

(hushed chatter)

the air went out of the room.

Everybody turned to see.

Keeler:
She was sort of weird
and twitchy-looking,

she had this very dark,
thick hair, and, you know,

she had a face like somebody

who's put a lot of miles
on her face.

Segal: Ms. Stoeckley,
I want to ask you about

the early morning hours

of February 17 of 1970,
all right?

Helena: Yes, sir.

Smith: This could be the end.

This could be it.

She could tell the truth.

This case could be over.

This man could be free.

Segal:
Do you have
a specific recollection

of where you were
between midnight,

or shortly after midnight,
and 4:35 in the morning?

Helena: No, sir.

Segal:
Do you have
any reason to believe

that you have seen
that scene before?

No, sir.

She absolutely, absolutely
shut it down.

Segal:
I represent to the court
that during interviews with me

and with other persons present,
she stated she had

a recollection of standing
over a body, holding a candle.

Well, it was confounding
for all of us, because...

This was a woman that, maybe,

could put an end
to this whole thing.

It was a very, very hard day.

(gavel banging, hushed chatter)

dupree: Call your next witness.

News anchor:
While helena stoeckley
told everyone

macdonald was telling the truth,

on the witness stand,
her mind went blank.

A judge later said stoeckley's
memory resembled a light bulb

not screwed tight,
blinking on and off.

Beasley: I asked her if she was
involved with this, uh,

done this at fort bragg.

She told me that, uh, in her
mind, it seemed that she saw

this thing happen,
but she wasn't sure.

Reporter:
Is that what she's saying now?

Uh, she says
she don't remember now.

(gallery murmuring)

smith: We pushed forward

because we had interviewed
these people

who had talked with her
over all the years.

Morris:
You were brought up to raleigh.

- You were subpoenaed.
- Underhill: Right.

(gallery murmuring)

smith:
She had revealed to people that

they had murdered his family.

Brisentine:
I was supposed to be testifying

at the macdonald trial

taking place in raleigh.

When she said,

- no.
- "No, I wasn't there," she's

not telling the truth.

Posey: And I said,
"well, were you there?

Did you do it?" you know,
and she said, "I was there.

You know,
but I didn't do nothing."

(siren sounding)

gaddis: Well, I-I got notice

that there was a trial going on,

and that, uh, I was subpoenaed.

And to me, helena was just
as guilty as sin.

I have never known helena
to lie to me.

(distant barking)

she had always been truthful.

Judge dupree could permit
the jury

to hear the things
that she had said

to all these people.
That's why they were there, and

judge dupree didn't permit that.

(soft chatter)

blackburn:
There are a lot of judges

who would've let
that evidence in.

That was a surprise to me.

(distorted conversation)

bernie gets into a tirade
in front of him.

How unfair he's being to him
and all this stuff.

And dupree just listens to him,

lets him

go on forever.

Wade's just in despair.

(distorted conversation)

smith:
We would never get in a war

with the judge.

(distorted):
I will not vary the rule...

Smith: That's not the way it was

normally done in north carolina.

♪ ♪

what's wrong with this picture?

You have a witness.

You know that she's been
confessing to a lot of people,

repeatedly.

The judge

and the prosecutors
worked hand in hand

to figure out a way
to marginalize

all of those witnesses,

those so-called
hearsay witnesses,

and they were
ultimately successful.

Didn't the jury have the right
to hear this material?

♪ ♪

♪ ♪

(indistinct chatter)

thornhill:
One day, they said,
"we're taking a trip

to see the apartment."

♪ ♪

we pull into fort bragg,

and the mps had everything
roadblocked off.

And then we pull up
to the apartment,

and there are
the three major networks

with their cameras out there.

We said, "this is unbelievable.

This is big-time."

♪ ♪

(indistinct chatter)

smith: So, you walk in.

Over there on the wall,

there's valentines the children
had just given their dad.

They were
just where they had left 'em.

Blackburn:
The sofa was still there
in the living room.

The coffee table was there.

The dishes in the drain
were still there.

Thornhill:
They'd kept this house
like this for nine years.

That was
kind of a surreal situation.

Blackburn:
In kimberley's room
was a bookcase,

and on top of the bookcase

was a toy cash register
and a mickey mouse watch.

And scotch-taped to the bookcase

was a drawing that she had made.

Now, it wasn't
a very good drawing.

Stick figures.

And she had signed her name,
and she had misspelled her name

and wrote "kimbelrey."

I think it had an impact
on pretty much everybody.

Smith: It was a really

moving experience,
to be the first people

to enter that house
since this awful thing happened,

and you had a feeling that-that,

you know, that there would be,
uh, dark spirits there.

Blackburn:
I remember being
in the master bedroom

and macdonald's there,
just the two of us.

And even then, nine years later,

you could still see
the word "pig" in blood.

It began to haunt me,
what had been left behind,

why he didn't take these things.

He took a stereo.

He took a, uh, television set.

He did not take any of
the personal items that we saw.

(reporters clamoring)

good morning. How are you?

Hi, rebecca. Yes.

Reporter:
How do you feel like it's going?

I-it's got to have been
a-a painful experience,

- this whole trial.
- Very painful.

- How would you describe it?
- Uh, shattering.

It's been, uh, very draining,
emotionally, financially.

Uh, opened my life up
to, uh, the entire world again.

Segal: Okay, I think we've got
to go up in the court.

-Okay.
-Thank you.
-Have a good day.

(clears throat)

blackburn:
The day that macdonald
testified on cross-examination,

I went up and touched him,
touched his arm.

And the reason
I touched him was I wanted

to realize that he was
just a normal person.

'cause I didn't want
to be intimidated by him.

And there was a little bit
of that, even so.

Dr. Macdonald,
should the jury find,

from the evidence, that in
the master bedroom there were

60 or more sewing threads which
match your blue pajama top,

do you have, sir,
any explanation for that?

Macdonald:
No, sir, I don't have
any explanation for that.

Blackburn:
We didn't think
he was gonna confess.

We simply wanted
to wear him down.

We wanted to get him tired.

Dr. Macdonald, if the jury
should find, from the evidence,

that there is a fabric
impression matching

the right cuff of your blue
pajama top on it,

do you have
any explanation for that?

If the jury should find?

No.

It was pretty clever
cross-examination

and it's fair cross-examination.

"if the jury should find that,
what do you say to it?"

can't say anything.

Blackburn:
Where did you put
the pajama top?

Macdonald: I do not recall.

Blackburn:
Dr. Macdonald, should the jury
find, from the evidence,

that the 48 puncture holes
in your blue pajama top

match up with the 21 puncture
holes in colette's chest,

do you have
any explanation for that?

Macdonald: No!

(indistinct whispering)

masewicz: I thought

that he was gonna get up

and-and poke the prosecutor
in the face.

I mean, he got so mad.

I mean, he got
beet, beet red in the face.

What kind of person
would kill their wife?

An angry, irritated person,
you know?

Blackburn:
Your honor, that concludes the
government's cross-examination.

(gallery whispering)

his story of what happened
in that house that night

completely disintegrated
and fell apart.

In other words, the way he says

the murders occurred,
the way he was attacked,

just did not stand up
under scrutiny.

Reporter:
Mrs. Kassab, what would you like

to see happen to dr. Macdonald?

Well, I would like
to see him imprisoned.

Okay, you know, st... you better
stop before you guys get,

you know, bowled over.

(sighs)

reporter 2:
How do you think it went today?

-Bernie or me?
-Both of you.
-You.

I was being cross-examined
today, uh, by a government

who really doesn't have
a theory about the case,

and they were asking me
to supply them with the theory.

I could not do that
on cross-examination.

I don't think I'm hurt by that.

They presented, uh,
the identical case

that was presented in 1970,
and, uh, colonel rock in 1970

found me not, you know,
not guilty,

and this jury's gonna
find me not guilty.

I am innocent.

With all my heart, with all
the sincerity that I feel,

I tell every one of you

that jeffrey macdonald
did not kill his family.

Thornhill: When bernie came up,
I really thought,

if anybody could've gotten him
off on this situation,

that man could've done it.

We were still giving him
the benefit of the doubt.

Keeler:
Bernie did what bernie does,

you know, he-he went over
all of the pieces of, uh,

uh, evidence, and tried to put
the spin on them that they want

to put on them all throughout
the cross-examination.

-Segal: Just in case...
-Blackburn: And then
he goes off,

lecturing about the meaning
of reasonable doubt,

and circumstantial evidence
and all this stuff.

Well, the judge
is gonna do that.

I think that's wasting his time.

Segal:
Or if you feel, beyond
a reasonable doubt

that this was jeffrey
macdonald's intent...

...Would stab himself
in the place he did...

I don't th... remember him
stopping for a-a sip of water.

He kept going and going
and going. It-it was amazing.

Bernie just got all wound up.

(segal speaking distantly)

(snoring)

I was to take an hour,

and, uh, my-my argument
was to come last.

...At the end of October
of 1970...

Smith:
And I worked hard
on that argument,

and I was ready
to give that argument.

Blackburn:
Judge dupree
didn't stop bernie.

We didn't take a restroom break.

Smith: Judge dupree tapped

his desk with a pencil.

(pencil tapping)

he took all of our time.

And I sat there and realized
it was happening,

but he-he was...
He was first chair.

I didn't really feel
like it would be appropriate

for me to get up and walk over

and tap him on the shoulder
and say, "how about my time?"

blackburn: We take a break.

So I turn to wade,

and macdonald's standing there
with us.

I said, "wade, if you will tell
the jury that I did this,

I will give you ten minutes
of my time."

jim blackburn gave me
ten minutes,

which was one
of the smartest things

he's ever done in his life,

because that was viewed
as so, so kind.

Well, it was kind.

What an opportunity it was
for me to try

to do something
with ten minutes.

(chuckles)

he got the jury quiet for
the first time that afternoon.

(pencil tapping)

jury members are scheduled
to begin deliberations today,

and they'll be told by the judge
not to decide

if jeffrey macdonald
has proven his innocence,

but whether the prosecution
has proven his guilt.

Bob jimenez, nbc news,
raleigh, north carolina.

Smith:
I have a certain thing I do

when a jury's out.

I don't ever just

talk with folks out in the hall
while they're waiting.

Uh, I don't... I don't do that.

I don't bring something to work
on while they're deliberating.

I don't bring a book to read.

I sit... Like this,

and I send them messages.

I think... Hard.

Who knows. It may work.

Keeler:
I don't think we left the hall

the whole time.
It wasn't that long.

I think it was about... what...

Six hours
or something like that,

which is,
after a six-week trial,

you know, that's not a lot.

We took our...

(muffled whimper)

sorry. It, uh...

Aah! We took our final vote,

and it was 12-0.

And, uh, that place was...

It was unbelievable.

The atmosphere in there
was-was just...

Uh, you could cut it
with a knife.

Within a split second,
women were crying.

And it was like,
"good. This is real."

this was... This was real.

(sniffles)

freddy:
The only way
I can describe macdonald

is that he is a true psychopath.

He killed colette
and the children,

and he should pay for it.

Are you supposed to sit back

and do nothing about it?

He's lucky I haven't gone out
and killed him.

Malley:
When we went back
for the verdict,

jeff was wearing
a bulletproof vest,

which was bernie's idea,
on the theory

that freddy was... Had said,

"you know, I'm gonna kill him."
(mumbles)

freddy had said all sorts
of things about that.

(door squeaks open)

blackburn:
Nobody came through the door.

It seemed like an hour.

The first juror

almost stumbles
into the courtroom,

weeping.

The second juror still isn't in,

and comes in behind her,

crying, also.

He says, "have you reached
a verdict?" "we have."

and he hands it up
to the clerk...

Who hands the verdict
to judge dupree.

Judge dupree opens it,

and I recall
that he looked at me.

He didn't nod.
He just looked at me.

Clerk:
Will the jurors please stand?

How do you find as to count one?

Is the defendant,
jeffrey r. Macdonald,

guilty or not guilty as
to murder in the first degree?

Jurors: Not guilty.

Count one,
against colette macdonald,

murder in the first degree...
How do you find?

Not guilty.

And then, how do you find
with the respect

to guilty,
murder in the second degree?

Jurors: Guilty.

Blackburn:
His mother was
in the courtroom.

In my life, I have never heard
anybody scream

the way she screamed. It was a

blood-curdling scream as though
someone was going to die.

They had to take her out
of the courtroom.

She didn't hear the whole thing.

Clerk: How do you find
as to count two?

Jurors: Guilty in the second.

Clerk: How do you find
as to count three?

Jurors: Guilty in the first.

(sniffles)

you know, it's-it's...

We felt badly for him,

but we didn't feel badly
for what we came up with

and what
our-our final verdict was.

We believed that was the right,
uh... Right decision.

Malley:
As soon as
the verdict came back,

and the clerk read the verdict,

the judge had the probation
report and started sentencing.

He sentenced him right away.

Blackburn: Judge dupree gave him

three life sentences,
consecutive.

Which is the harshest sentence
he could give him.

No.

I think, uh,
the judge was biased.

He was my friend.

I'm sorry.

And... I think that

I didn't get
to make my argument.

And I think that
is quite remarkable.

Suppose, having been
at the top of my game,

the best I would ever be,

believing...

In myself,

and my cause...

Give me a whole hour
with that jury.

Let me say
what has worked for me

in case after case after case
to this point.

And realize that I only need
to persuade one juror.

That's all.

Just one juror.

And realizing
I didn't get to do it.

What would have happened?

No, I don't think
it was a fair trial.

(indistinct crowd murmuring)

blackburn:
There's never been
any vindictiveness

on the part of the prosecution.

It's been a, a pursuit of truth,

it's been a pursuit of justice;
that's what we told the jury,

that's what I tell you today,
and that's the truth.

Segal:
How could the jury
have done this?

Tomorrow morning, at 9:00,

wade smith and I will file

a notice of appeal

that will take this case
on its way

to the u.S. Court of appeals
for the fourth circuit.

Mildred:
I feel relieved
that it's all over.

It's been a very difficult thing
for me, being here,

reliving the whole thing.

But I feel that
now that it's over,

perhaps we can s...
Wipe everything clean,

try to live again.

(indistinct crowd murmuring)

(indistinct conversation)

reporter:
Helena, the macdonald murders

occurred in the early morning
hours of February 18, 1970.

Since that time,
a number of people have said

that you talked to them
and advised

that you were definitely there.

Can you tell us why
you've changed your mind

through these last 12 years
so many times?

♪ ♪