The Rise of Jordan Peterson (2019) - full transcript

- Jordan Peterson.
- Jordan Peterson.

- Jordan Peterson.
- Jordan B. Peterson.

- Jordan Peterson.
- Welcome back, Mr. Peterson.

The Canadian psychology
professor is somebody

people love or love to hate.

Despite
what you think about him,

there is no denying
the professor's impact.

He's undeniably
one of the greatest

intellectual phenomenons
on the planet right now.

People were coming up to me and saying, "This book

- saved my life."
- He's the ultimate father figure.



I've spent so much time in the dark. It's not easy to find,

not so much heroes, but people
that can be so helpful.

- Shame, shame, shame.
- So, you're anti-justice.

Are you a Batman villain?
I watched the professor against political correctness video

and I was just so disappointed,
I guess.

His thoughts
aren't quick.

They're long and drawn out
and they're a story,

everything he says is a story,
so you have to be there for the whole story

to find out what
is there at the end.

"A man
does not live by bread alone."

Right, and the spiritual bread
that's the story.

If you're going to have millions of people
who are listening to everything you say,

I think that you have take some responsibility
to help them understand what you mean.

So, this is what
I actually look like



and then this is what people who don't like me think I look like.

- Which one is real?
- Yeah, that's a good question.

Well, I would say
they're both real.

Peterson! Peterson! Peterson!

Yeah, and he sang
at my mom's funeral.

That's when he started
to play the piano

as opposed to playing
the guitar.

And he did it
and sent it before he left.

- Answer.
- One to five?

Yes. Strongly agree is five,

- strongly disagree is one. Okay.
- Okay.

- Seldom feel blue?
- That's the kind of question I don't know how to answer--

Just guess.
Guess and then mom and I will tell you if you're off...

- Five is strongly agree?
- Yeah.

- Four.
- Avoid philosophical discussions?

One.

Change my mood a lot?

- He is Gemini.
- I don't know. That's another one that's tough for me.

- What would you say?
- I'd say one, but that's wrong.

He changes his mood often.
I'd say yes.

- Yeah, probably four.
- You know, he can be...

- Not a five? ...deeply immersed on the telephone,
then he can say,

- "Where's my wallet?" And--
- Okay, okay. Five.

And then get out on the street
and complain about the car and--

Keep my emotions under control?

- Three.
- Okay.

- No way. Come on, really?
- Is that what you think?

You have no idea
how irritated I actually am.

- That isn't-- that's not the question.
- One, apparently.

Weren't you
yelling at a computer?

- Yeah.
- Rarely feel depressed?

When I'm not depressed,
I don't feel depressed at all,

but when I'm depressed, I feel depressed.
That's another one I don't know how to answer.

- Love a good fight?
- You mean an argument?

Yeah, a conflict.

You love them more than me.

They agitate the hell out
of me, but I won't back away

from one. Three.

Hard to get to know?

- Three.
- You went on TV talking about depression.

- What was the question?
- Well, that's different.

Not really.
Hard to get to know.

- Show business.
- Hard to get to know.

- Know how to captivate people?
- Five.

- Get deeply immersed in music?
- Five.

- Think quickly?
- Five.

Not easily annoyed?

One. Thanks, Mom.

Seek conflict?

Seek it.

When you're speaking about
existential personality theory,

it's important to place the individual in a broader context.

Jung famously claimed
that people didn't have ideas,

that ideas had people.

Politics was really something
that had always been at the base

of what he was worried about.

Why do people fight wars

and why are people willing
to sacrifice themselves?

I've been studying authoritarianism for a very long time.

It's been my life's work to inoculate
people against ideological possession.

It's the lesson that I try to teach people in my Maps of Meaning course.

And then I've been keeping an eye on what's
been going on with political correctness

since, well since the 1990s
when I was down in--

I taught at Harvard
for seven years.

And there was a big resurgence
of political correctness

in the 1990s,
but it sort of died off.

But then something changed
about five or six years ago.

I noticed it,
in the speech codes, and the sexual harassment codes,

and the idea of rape culture.
My graduate student's comments that they're nervous

about teaching anything that has to do with gender or biology of gender

because they're afraid of the potential kickback from students

or afraid of speaking out
in public about their research

on political psychology
and personality.

It's just
an endless array of details

indicating that
the requirement to speak

in the politically
correct manner

is becoming overwhelming.

It just so happened that
it was the trans pronoun issue

that brought in
this restrictive legislation

that had forced speech content,

which I think
is very bad idea in principle,

very, very dangerous idea.

And I've entitled this talk,

"Professor Against
Political Correctness."

There are continually things
happening in the universities

and in the broader political world that make me very nervous.

It's becoming increasingly
difficult for professors

and students to even say
what they think.

And I think that some of the things that I say in my lectures

now might be sufficient for me
to be brought before

the Ontario
Human Rights Commission under their amended hate speech laws.

And that scares me as well.

And it scares me that I think that because it sounds paranoid

and there is a first reading
of legislation

in the Federal House in Canada
about a bill called C-16.

I'm very proud
that on May the 17th

we introduced bill C-16,

an act to amend
the Canadian Human Rights Act

and the criminal code.

The bill addresses
a fundamental issue

of equality and human rights,

the discrimination
and hate crimes experienced

by trans
and gender diverse Canadians.

Definition of
discrimination and harassment.

Now, these are truly terrifying.

Discrimination happens
when a person experiences

negative treatment
or impact intentional or not.

Intent matters,
this is a painful thing that human beings have learned.

It's at the base
of our modern legal systems.

If I accidentally run into you,

that's way different than
if I run into you on purpose.

And so, this policy
is designed to reverse that.

So, this is the scenario I've
been running through my head.

I can envision
a student or a colleague

insisting that I call them
using gender neutral pronouns.

I'm not doing that.
I'm not doing that.

I don't recognize another
person's right to determine

what pronouns I use to address
them. I won't do it.

Now, my decision might be illegal and maybe it's even a decision of hate,

but I'm not doing it.

But I'm not doing it.

I watched the video
and then was in danger

of vomiting
all over my keyboard.

I started tweeting about it and I made a number of comments

basically calling out Peterson
for being transphobic.

But I just sort of felt that I could speak perhaps to having

a little bit of lived experience as a non-binary
and a trans person on campus.

I wanted to try to stick up
for students

who felt under fire
from Peterson's remarks.

I wrote to someone in
the administration and asking,

"Gosh, what are we
going to do about this?"

And it, sort of,
snowballed from there.

Why are you against the use
of alternate pronouns?

I'm against the use of--
of legislation to determine

what words are that myself and other people are required to utter.

Bill C-16 is actually
not about cisgender people.

It's about protections
for transgender people.

Peterson frames this
as a free speech issue

just because you can't speak
exactly what you want to say it,

when you want to say it,
where you want to say it,

doesn't mean you get
to throw a big tantrum.

You've accused
him of abusing students

by not using the pronouns
they want to be addressed by.

That's how I see it,
absolutely.

That is tantamount
to abuse in your view?

Absolutely. Many global
documents, many organiza--

How about violence?
Is it tantamount to violence?

- Yes, absolutely.
- How about hate speech?

- Is it tantamount hate speech?
- Yes. It's hate speech--

Fine, that's--

One of the things
that I studied, for example,

with regards to the way events went during the Holocaust is that

we went this far. It was like,
"Okay, no problem."

But then we went this far.
That was okay, no problem.

It's like, "Oh, it's okay.
It's okay. We can do that.

We can go that one step
further." It's like--

The funny thing too is, is if
you draw a line in the sand,

which is what I did,
all hell breaks loose because,

"Well, why did you draw
it there? That's arbitrary."

It's like, "Yeah, there's an
element of arbitrariness to it."

That's why people won't draw
the line, they don't want

to take the heat
for the arbitrary element,

the arbitrary nature
of the act because

whatever people happen to be directly affected by that arbitrary line,

they come out and say, "Well,
you're a horrible person."

"Yeah. Oh, well.
No, but I get your point."

There's a demonstration
plan for tomorrow.

They call it
a rally and teach-in,

so I'm going to have to make this very straightforward and simple.

I don't disbelieve in the existence of non-binary people.

Okay? Do you want me
to say that again?

Obviously,
people who don't fit into

standard binary categories
of sexual identity,

however you decide
to construe that

broadly or narrowly,
obviously those people exist.

I never said they didn't exist.

So, if you're going out tomorrow
to this demonstration

because you want to indicate
your discomfort

with my disbelief in the very
existence of non-binary people,

you might as well
just stay home.

Everyone who is here
who has seen the Peterson video,

I want you to raise your hand
if this is the very first time

that you've ever heard anything
like what he's saying.

We had created what
should have been an historical event.

It may have been the only gathering of that type in Canadian history

of trans people in a public space gathering in a large number

to go up to an open microphone and announce publicly their experiences.

I don't think
that's ever happened

and that was a huge deal to us
when we put that on.

We're here today to call out
Jordan B. Peterson.

He feels that he has
the authority to dictate

the gender identities
of his students,

which we are here
to say that he does not.

Using preferred pronouns,
I don't think is a debate.

It's just being respectful.

I attempted to kill myself
three times last year.

The result of the anxiety that comes from
when you decide to begin transitioning.

It leads you to do things,
horrible things.

We'd also told
media not to film trans people

without their consent.
The media was all very responsible with that

and respected our wishes
but Rebel Media wouldn't.

They kept shoving their cameras in people's faces.

Actually, I'm talking
to people because I want to know

whether they want a man to be fired.
I want to know about bill C-16,

what they think
about campus freedom.

Everyone here can give their
opinion on whether they think

this is a campus
with free speech.

Anyone of any skin color
or gender can give that opinion.

Well, like the Lauren Southern
thing was basic definition

of trans people
being talked over.

She had just legally changed
her sex marker

as some sort of like anti-trans publicity stunt a few days before.

I, honestly, didn't
expect it to be that easy.

The people who are there
were like raw that day.

You know what I mean?
Everyone who attended that rally

was putting themselves
in a very vulnerable position

and it was really
just like being spat on.

Yeah. Yes.

I think people also
have to start pushing back

and saying when they hear
this constant noise

about what group identity
you belong to,

and to make that the cardinal
element of their identity.

It's appalling.

Okay. Well, it was really good
talking to you guys.

Okay, good. Yeah. Bye.

Now, who was that?

- Recording?
- It's recording.

So, anything I say now,
you can put out in a tweet and ruin my career?

- Exactly.
- All right. I'm going to be mindful of you, Marxists.

I was one of Jordan's students when I was an Undergrad at Harvard.

He can be a pretty intimidating
professor, but he was beloved.

The aspect of people
that's dividing theoretically

is the part that stands on the border
between the unknown and the known

and it moves information
from unexplored territory

into explored territory.

Expanding the door to the domain
of the group. That's--

Anyways. Okay. Who's this?

One of the things I remember is that if any
student had an objection to something,

if it was clear it was
from an ideological angle,

whether Left or Right, he would
just sort of scissor it.

Like if you're going to ask
something disingenuously

that part of what you're asking
is to get information

or make a power play in the phrasing of the question,
that's not going to be tolerated

in the kind of discourse
of a classroom.

For me, ideologies are
the expression in a sense,

the verbal expression
of the internal structures

that regulate our emotions.

Jordan and I have been
in touch sort of increasingly

as our lives have gone on.

Actually. I think
that was really worrying me,

I guess I would say because
the last thing I want to do--

well, I don't know
if it's the last thing,

but I don't want to get
into political arguments

and I don't want to get stuck
in a, you know.

One will
always lose, on this topic.

I think you kind of lose every
time you engage in a political argument.

You know the people that are
putting the argument forward

are possessed by one ideology
and when you discuss

it in the ideological terms
and oppose it,

that means
you're immediately possessed

by the opposing ideology.

I don't want to be
the mouthpiece of...

of the opposite to Neo-Marxism.

All right.

I don't know
what's going to happen.

That's all.

Could be catastrophic for me.

I don't even know where
I'm supposed to meet people.

- What you had to say was definitely needed, I think.
- Glad to hear it.

- I think there needs to be an open dialogue--
- Of course.

- It's a pleasure to finally meet you.
- Oh, yeah. How are you doing?

I'm very good. I look forward
to hearing you speak.

Your video about your ID switch
there got a lot of attention?

Yeah, about 200,000.
The one covering the protest against you got over 100,000.

- Oh, yeah?
- I don't know if you saw it, but they--

You made quite a splash
with your video,

your YouTube channel.
When did you start it?

Rebel? Ezra Levant started
it about a year ago.

- A year?
- Yeah, I joined full-time a couple of months ago.

It was funny you're talking to white
straight guys and they put their hands...

They're screaming at people,
laughing at people for being white.

- It was very sad.
- Well I'm the token Asian guy, so...

Well, it is pretty
funny being white, you know.

Hello. Good afternoon, UOT.
Dr. Jordan Peterson

will come out and speak
after I do and Lauren Southern--

- Let's not do that.
- We're here for the rally for free speech and we have

some other company...

...Campus culture has been
changing lives everywhere.

Other people thought
that the event was organized

by straight white males

who had bigoted opinions

and just wanted to use
freedom of speech

as a shield for their ignorance.

People on the other side
did not understand.

The people who are disagreeing
with the social justice left.

We feel that, yeah,
there is an issue of political correctness.

Well, it's not because I'm completely ignorant.

It's because I'm trying
to think about those things

and trying to form an opinion
about those things.

Shame, shame, shame.

Shame, shame, shame.

Okay.

Okay, so let's try this again.

The reason I'm defending
freedom of speech

is because that's how people with different opinions settled their opinions

in a civil society
and if we lose that--

Whoa.

If we lose that, we'll lose
so much, you can't imagine.

It's as a consequence of free
speech and the ability to speak,

that people can put
their finger on problems,

articulate what those problems
are, solve them

and come to a consensus
and we risk losing that.

Now, the radical Left activists
are trying to turn this

into an argument
about sexual politics,

and it's only nominally
about sexual politics.

It's about language
that's designed to control

our freedom of expression.

Whoa.

Shame on you...

I'm asking
each of you as individuals...

- ...a bigot like you.
- To say clearly and carefully

- what you have to say.
- Peterson.

Let me just express my profound
gratitude for what you're doing.

- Thank you.
- Thank you.

That's okay.
I've got a platform.

YouTube seems
to be doing just fine.

- Yeah.
- It's okay this sort of thing.

There's no violence.
As long as there's no violence,

it's okay. And so,
we'll see how this plays out.

- Recognized by anybody.
- How am I disrespecting you?

By refusing to include language which is already in your vocabulary

into like a sentence
just when addressing somebody.

That's just-- Well, it should be and it will be an act of hate.

- That is ridiculous.
- Yeah, that's for sure.

Like that to me is you're
denying somebody's identity

and that's fundamentally wrong.

Well, you're more than entitled
to your opinion.

I think that the pathway
that you're pursuing to obtain

the rights you want
will kick back hard

and not in the direction
you want it to.

- I don't believe that because--
- Yeah, I know.

- I think you're behind in the progression.
- You might be right.

The progression here is
moving way faster than you are

and for you to be like this far
behind at this stage

is kind of sad.

Sure. Who are you?

I'm Ethan.
I'm a student at UCS.

- How are you, Ethan? How are you doing?
- I'm good. You?

I really respect
what you're doing.

- Thanks.
- No problem.

Let's go upstairs.

- Yeah, I know.
- That's hilarious.

- You think that's pretty funny?
- Yes.

The intense part
was the fight over the--

- Speakers?
- The speakers, yeah.

- There was one guy there...
- Yeah, it shouldn't--

...who was that far
from being violent.

Oh really? On the other side?
On your side?

- Well... on my side.
- Well, on the Right or the Left?

- On the Right--
- You got to be careful there, kiddo.

Okay, sorry.

Peterson.
Peterson. Peterson.

On all their faces.

Don't smile on me, bitch.
What do you want?

Whoa, whoa, whoa.

The Canadian psychology
professor is somebody

people love or love to hate.

I think one of the hottest
topics in the country today,

Professor Peterson,
and it's all because of you.

I 've been doing specifically non- binary activism

for about four years now,
ever since I came out.

That's mostly been
online creating spaces

like resource collection and creating education materials

and making YouTube videos.

My decision
to not compromise my identity

is very much a survival thing
for me because of the level

of depression and mental health,
mental health issues

that were caused by me
trying to exist as female.

We're here at the free speech
counter protest

to our "Please respect
us as human beings protest."

That we put on last week.

The Jordan Peterson thing was
the first protest I'd ever

participated in or participated
in arranging, rather.

You have no idea if I'm your enemy,
you have no idea about me.

You won't use my pronoun,
so I'm pretty sure you're my enemy.

I know you think that,
but I don't believe that using your pronouns

is going to do you any good in the long run.
I think it'll do quite the contrary.

What the fuck?
Is that your medical opinion?

You are aware that non-binary people
are valid in the American Psychological

- Association?
- This isn't about the non-binary people.

- Yes, it is.
- No, it's not.

- It's about non-binary pronouns.
- No, it's not.

This was one of the speakers who spoke at the rally

in support of Jordan Peterson that my friends were involved in disrupting.

Do you think people love them?

Do you think they're hugged
and taken care of?

- Do you think people love those people?
- Hallelujah.

Do you think that
they're listened to? No!

So, they believe these crazy inter-sexual cultural Marxist ideas.

You're tattooing your body
and cutting off your genitals.

It shows the kinds of things that were being said at that and the reason

why people thought that it was important to counter demonstrate that.

It's really difficult
to separate the thing

with Jordan Peterson from the Trump election because

when I first got into it,
I thought it was a blip.

I thought it was just like some stupid thing that's happening

and people think that people
are getting overly confident

because Trump's running
for office.

But once he loses,
things will just kind of,

go back to the-- you know,
the way that they were before.

Donald Trump wins
the presidency.

The business tycoon
and TV personality

capping his improbable
political journey

with an astounding
upset victory. Donald J...

So, the rallies happened
in early October

and then Trump was elected
in early November.

And that really just--

if Peterson was the spark
then the Trump election

was like the fire
that really galvanized it.

People who were on Peterson's side, or whatever, were wearing

MAGA hats and like saying all these,
kind of like, Trumpist's slogans.

The groups of people
who were supporting Peterson,

were going to be an ongoing
political identity.

Dear dad,
I don't completely understand the driving force

behind
what I have been working on.

I'd been obsessed with the idea of war for three or four years,

often dreaming
extremely violent dreams

centered around
the theme of destruction.

I believe now that my concern
with death on a mass scale

was intimately tied
into my personal life.

Carl Jung has suggested
that all personal problems

are relevant to society

and that any sufficiently
profound solution

to a personal problem
may, if communicated,

reduce the likelihood
of that problem existing

in anyone else's experience
in the future.

I had a notion that confronting what terrified me,

what turned my dreams
against me could help me

withstand that terrible thing.

This idea
allowed me to believe

that I could find
what I most wanted

if I was willing to follow
wherever it led me.

Knowing somehow
that once started,

an aborted attempt
would destroy,

at least my self-respect,

at most my sanity.

I knew that he had been bothered by bad dreams

and was very conscientious about
what was going on in the world

and for a while thought
he could solve it with

political action,
and that disappeared.

Then he seemed to kind of take
a route that led him into,

you know, why were there wars?

Why was man so damn miserable
to each other?

My experience
with students has been

that none of them know
anything about what happened

as a consequence
of the repression

of the radical Left
in the 20th century.

The reason that I believe
that this is important

in a personality class
is because it's necessary

to analyze the relationship
between

the psychological integrity of
the individuals within a society

and the propensity
of that society to engage

- in say, acts of mass atrocity.
- The Joe Rogan Experience.

I have this class
called Maps of Meaning,

which concentrates
on atrocity basically,

on Soviet atrocity
and Nazi atrocity mostly.

And what I try to do in the class is to teach my students

that had they been in Nazi
Germany in the 1930s,

they would have been Nazis
and had they been offered

the opportunity to be
an Auschwitz camp guard,

then maybe they
would have leapt at it.

Maybe they would've been
in the more sadistic proportion

of the Auschwitz
camp guard population.

You think that makes
you feel safe?

It doesn't make you feel
safe to know that Nazis

were humans and you happen
to be one of them.

I guess we didn't
talk about this one.

That's not a copy,
that's an original.

And that's-- there's a bit of
the statue of David in this one,

I think because the hands
are quite exaggerated in size,

you know, and that at least
in principle, gives the figure

more power because
hands are so powerful.

I mean, obviously he's about--
on a podium,

he's about the same size
as me in representation,

but his hands are at least
fifty percent bigger

than they would be in real life.

So, it's kind
of an interesting technique.

So, people ask me,
sometimes people are shocked

when they come into the house
because I've got

paintings of Lenin.
It's not like, I don't know,

he was an absolutely
murderous tyrant, but...

I want to understand it.

I think I scared my wife
half to death

when I was buying them
though because, you know...

you have to be pretty...

not easily worried to not be
concerned if your husband

goes and buys
like five hundred paintings.

But she really likes art, so
it wasn't that big a struggle.

So... we can go and look
in the living room.

There is good old Karl.

My daughter...
for Christmas one year

she found like a plush doll
that was Karl Marx

at some intellectual
kid's toy store

and he was on sale for 50 % off.
So, she bought me that for Christmas,

which I thought was real funny
because it's one thing to buy

Soviet era artifacts
online for nothing

in this capitalist market,
which I thought was extremely hilarious.

But to buy a 50 % off Karl Marx doll,
that was just exactly perfect.

So...

- There's a message from the event organizers.
- Yeah.

Says, "We're dealing
with a crisis at the moment

regarding the risk
management department,

possibly pulling
our approval to run the event.

I'm trying very hard to make
sure this doesn't happen,

but we'll need to discuss with
Dr. Peterson how we can proceed

- if this occurs for ten minutes."
- I'll fucking go anyways.

He's probably
going to call you--

- I'm going to call him.
- Okay.

- Hello?
- Hi, there. It's Dr. Peterson calling.

Yeah and who are-- who is
the risk management office?

Well,
what needs to be done here--

I need the names
and phone numbers of the people

who are making this decision.

- Yup.
- All right.

Bye, bye. Scum rats.

The risk management office is thinking about pulling their permission.

- Yeah.
- If they go ahead with it, then they cancel them

- as a club for the next year.
- You're kidding.

- No.
- That's threatening.

- That's a--
- That's called blackmail.

Blackmail, that's it. Yeah.

- That made me mad.
- Yeah, I see that.

Yeah... Shaken again. Oh, well.

Did you want
to drink a juice?

Yeah. Thanks.

- Some tea would be nice.
- You're getting juice.

Okay.

Think it's safe to wear a tie?

- Why, you think they'll strangle you with it?
- Strangle me with it?

Yeah, sure.

I don't-- I don't see it
being anything really.

- Just a lot of--
- You think it's a lot of noise?

- A lot of fluff. Yeah.
- Yeah, probably.

All right.
Listen up. Listen, listen.

Security services is in this building.
We've been working with them for a while.

We have officers outside. So, please, everyone,
if we could be respectful--

Transphobic piece of shit.
Transphobic piece of shit.

Transphobic piece of shit.
Transphobic piece of shit.

This is where we draw the line.
This is where we draw the line.

This is where we draw the line.
This is where we draw the line.

This is where we draw the line.
This is where we draw the line.

Let him speak.
Let him speak. Let him speak.

Let him speak. Let him speak.
Let him speak.

So, I've received--

Listen, you can honk that,
but if you're definitely with it,

- I will take it away from you, you understand?
- What?

Do you want me to take that?
Not kidding.

Freedom of speech,
it applies to air horns too.

- No, it doesn't apply definitely.
- Oh, yes, it does.

- Not kidding. I will take it.
- Yours words hurt my ears.

My snowflake ears
are hurt by your hard words.

Shut down Peterson.
Shut down Peterson.

Shut down Peterson.
Shut down Peterson.

Shut down Peterson.
Shut down Peterson.

Okay. Well,
thanks guys for tuning in

and again for offering support

for the continued operation

of my YouTube channel.

We're in a chaotic time
and you know I've gotten letters

from people all over
the world who tell me

how they can't
say what they think.

Jordan Peterson.

Jordan Peterson, the unprecedented international,

media phenomenal.

Is any of this,
all the pressure and the scandal

every three weeks,
is it weigh on you?

Yeah.
It's like simultaneously the worst possible thing

and the best possible thing
that could happen.

Well, financially
it's been a boom, right?

I shouldn't say this,
but I'm going to because it's just so God damn funny,

I can't help but say it.
I figured out how to monetize social justice warriors.

This is Sam Harris. And today,
I am speaking with a guest

who has become quite famous
online for standing

in opposition to changes
to the human rights code

in Ontario, Canada.

And he's actually

the most requested guest

- I have had at this point.
- Head northwest.

Hi, all.
Are you coming to the talk?

- What time is it?
- Six thirty.

Six thirty? I'll be there.

Looking forward to it.

- Jeez, I'm a name brand guy.
- Are you?

Yeah, it's pretty fucking weird.

Oh, you're fast. Eighteen-ten.

Eleven.

The public response has been overwhelmingly positive,

so I think that's given him
like steam. You know,

it's-- it's made it easier
for him to just keep at it.

And I was really
stressed at the beginning.

That was a big decision
for him to speak out.

I would say that though
a lot of the credit

goes to Mikhaila because Mikhaila helped him with his diet.

This as we shall discover

is kind of the family curse in the Peterson family,
isn't it?

You have had
depression yourself.

It's one of the family curses.

You've been dealing
with depression yourself for...

much of your life, right?
Since, when did you?

That's-- that's hard
to say. I mean...

it might've been
for my whole life,

like as far back
as I can remember.

I know that when I was a child,

I had a very low threshold
for tears.

Last September I went
on an elimination diet

and then just out of the blue,
like two months into the diet,

my depression went away.
And I wasn't expecting that to happen

because I thought,
you know, chemical imbalance

is what doctors tell you.
I just thought that I was stuck with it forever.

I made a list of all the foods
I knew didn't cause depression

and I told dad
that he had to do it.

He was like, "Well,
that doesn't sound realistic,

but I'll give it a try
because it worked for you."

I used to get up in the morning.
I get up at 5:30, 6:30, 7:00,

sometime like that. I'd do
some yoga, I'd have some tea,

I'd read a book, and make
some breakfast. I'd call Jordan.

Then I'd call Jordan
and he couldn't get up.

It was hard and now,
like I wake up, really early

and I sneak out of the room
and I sneak upstairs

and I'm being really quiet
and then I hear, "Tammy."

I say, "Yeah."
"What time is it?"

"It's quarter to 6:00."

"Oh, are you doing yoga?"
"Yeah."

"Okay. I'll be right up."

That never happened.

In my 28 years of being married,

that's never happened.

- It's been a remarkable transformation.
- Yeah, for sure.

He used to talk
like a revolutionary,

but now he acts
like one.

Yeah.

So, I thought to bring
full closure to the class.

I was trying to solve
this terrible puzzle

about how it was that human
beings got themselves in such

a tangle
about what they believed,

such a tangle
that we were pointing

the ultimate weapons
of destruction at one another.

And it seemed to me
that the proper solution to that

was to live properly

as an individual because you're
more powerful than you think.

Way more powerful
than you think.

God only knows what
you are in the final analysis.

It's like how far could you take
that if you stopped wasting

time and if you stopped lying
and if you oriented yourself

to the highest possible good
that you could conceive of

and you committed to that.
How much good could you do?

There's so much more than
just like intellectual ideas.

This is why also
on your Joe Rogan podcast,

why it was like, "Oh everything
is going to be online

and that's great."It's like,
"No, that's nice.

That's a good thought.
But we need people,

we need like embodied people
in front of us

like this or like the person."
So--

That's interesting.
That gives me something to think about too

because I'm trying to figure out
how many talks I should go to

and I keep it there.

People need to see
and to like shake your hand

and to like-- or just like
people need to be around people.

- Okay. I get it.
- We're not vessels.

Yeah, I get it.

Yeah. Thank you for,
keep on, keeping on.

Oh, yeah.

University of Toronto Professor Jordan
Peterson has become a true phenomenon.

That's not an overstatement.
His book,

An Antidote to Chaos

may just be
the biggest bestseller

ever written
by a Canadian author.

Yeah. Welcome, guys.
Now, the book is just blowing up.

Everything that this man
is doing is just absolutely

exploding and you're in the right kind of revolution.
I really believe that.

You guys are in another
bloody revolution.

Yeah, you're
in on the idea revolution.

Rule seven is to do what's meaningful and not what is expedient

and that's
a lovely thing to know.

It's allied tightly
with rule eight.

The two go together

because you can't really
do one without the other.

Rule eight is to tell the truth
or at least don't lie.

One of the things that I think
I figured out is that

if you're going to follow
the instinct for meaning,

and I truly believe that there
is an instinct for meaning,

and not only that there
is an instinct for meaning,

but that it's the most real
thing that there is.

I got a text from
him and then he was like,

"Hey, Jordan Peterson's coming
to talk.

You want to go see him?"
I was like,

"Yeah, let's go do that."

And then I don't know,
it kind of just fit in

because my birthday
was coming up shortly.

It's easy to go down
the path of just,

I'm good enough, I don't need
to improve from here.

And I think hearing
him just saying

that you owe it to yourself.
You owe it to people in your community.

That you do need
to clean up your room,

get your stuff together and make your community a better places.

It's an important thing
to be said in a time

where I don't think
it's said nearly as much.

Up until I had seen him,

I was sort of drifting around,

I would say. I was spending
a lot of time

just doing things
that are in consequential

and a bit unproductive.
After following him and really learning

about how to act in the world is what I would say he taught me to do

and I just became a lot more aware of
all of the things that I needed to change.

Here's the book.
I've reread it multiple times

and reread specific passages
of it, multiple times

because this is sort of an
iteration of his entire method.

After you follow him this much,
he sort of becomes like a legendary figure

in your mind while also
retaining an incredibly power.

- Maybe just me, I just speak only for myself.
- Yeah, I think.

I mean legendary, yeah.

I maybe going too far.

Do I do that guys? I can't
really judge it by myself.

It's understandable if you
hold a high opinion of someone

and then you don't really--
Like you can't really talk about

a lot of this stuff at school especially.
We're at an art school.

You can't talk about
a lot of this stuff. So...

when you finally talk about someone you have a high opinion of,

you can go like further
than you actually feel.

Yeah, and I agree. I have
been doing that a little bit,

but I don't think I'm going that far.
I mean, he's had a huge effect

and I really don't want
to understate that.

Yeah, I know. Yeah.
One question and that's it.

Ladies and gentlemen,
Dr. Jordan Peterson.

- Hi, Matthew.
- It's such an honor. I got to thank you so much.

You've helped me improve
my relationship with my father.

You've helped me rekindle
my faith in religion.

And one of the best things
is you have given me the courage

to stand up for my conservative and libertarian beliefs in the classroom.

- How's that working out?
- Oh, the history teacher's mad.

Yeah?

But we've got
a few kids in our class

keeping the Neo-Marxist
history teacher in check.

There's just a few students
there. They're all watching him,

making sure he doesn't like
say anything out of line.

- It's quite funny.
- It's hilarious.

- We all watch you. We all watch Ben Shapiro.
- God, he must just hate me.

- That's great. Let's get a picture.
- It's really good to meet you.

- You're getting sharp?
- Yeah.

Good.

Say "Hi."
To your friends for me.

Tell them to keep it up
and to be gentle. All right.

- Hello. Hi.
- What's your name?

- Connor.
- Hi, Connor.

- Wow.
- How are you doing?

Did you enjoy the talk?

- Yeah, definitely.
- Good. What are you doing here?

I came here to see you.

Have you been
watching videos?

Yeah, since 2016.

Just you are a lot taller
than I expected.

I'm not even
standing up straight.

Shoulders back.

Right. All right. Okay.
Good to meet you, man.

- I'm glad you came.
- One, two, three.

Yeah. This is so fantastic.

When
you're ready. One, two, three.

My name's Anthony.
I just want to say thanks for everything.

- No problem, man.
- You've done so much for me

and I really,
really appreciate it.

Great, man.
I'm thrilled to hear it.

- Thank you.
- You bet.

Just meeting him just--

a lot of emotions came over me

cause I've spent
so much time in the dark

and in bad places mentally
that--

that's it's really not easy
to find-- not so much heroes,

but people that can be so
helpful for you in your life.

- Thank you.
- It's a pleasure to meet you.

- See you.
- Hi, mate. How are you?

I was at-- after
my talk, it's overwhelming.

I don't usually think about
these things, but I was--

it after my talk last night
and so all these people line up

and you know, they have
their 15 seconds with me.

They're kind of tentative.
They're excited and attentive

when they come up to talk to me
and then they have 15 seconds

of time to tell me something.
I'm really listening to them

and they're hesitant
about whether or not to share

the good news about
their life, you know.

And I think it's often
because when people share

good news about their life,
people don't necessarily respond positively.

They don't get encouragement and people need so little encouragement.

- Yeah.
- It's just unbelievable.

The truth is something that
burns, it burns off deadwood

and people don't like having
their dead wood burned off.

Keep talking, bucko.

Sort yourself out.

The more responsibility
you take on, the more meaning your life has.

I've been telling people online
in various ways,

in the lectures that they should start fixing
up the world by cleaning up their room.

Imagine you're dealing
with someone who's hoarding.

There's like ten thousand things in their house.

There's maybe a hundred boxes
and you open up a box

and in the box there's some
pens, and some old passports,

and some checks, and their
collection of silver dollars,

and there's boxes,
and boxes, and boxes.

It's absolute chaos in there.

Absolute chaos,
not ordered, chaos.

And then you think,
"Is that their houses or is that their being?

Is that their mind?"
And the answer is there's no difference.

There's no difference.
So, you know, I could say,

"Well, if you want
to organize your psyche,

you could start
by organizing your room."

So, people have been taking
the things that I've been saying

and making them
into merchandise.

These are bumper stickers
that someone sent me.

It's a book. I don't know how
many of them, but quite a few.

"Clean your room,"
which has become some kind of an internet meme.

They'd be horrified
to see this room.

This is the only room
in the house that's messy.

Can't really keep up
with everything.

That'll teach me, be mouthy
about cleaning up your room.

"I can't possibly express
how grateful I am to you

for all the ways you have
and continue to help me.

What you are doing for society
is really important."

I don't know what to make of it.
It's all part of the same

strange thing I suppose
whatever that thing is.

Sharp. That goes here.

What have we got here?

Oh, let's just see--

that's a poster that someone spent an awful lot of time making,

which is-- well, I don't even
know what to say about that.

I first got to know Jordan when he applied for a job

in psychology
at the University of Toronto.

That was about 20 years ago.

After he was hired,
I think it was a good hire.

I mean, I remained his strong
advocate for many years.

So, this is the third floor
of our house where Jordan

and his family lived
for about five months.

It looked a little different
then, but this is where it was.

And... we all ate
together downstairs.

There was not a kitchen
up here

and we had kind
of lovely five months.

We got to know
each other very well,

got to know
his family very well.

And afterwards, it remained
a kind of familial relationship.

I didn't write this article
to persuade Jordan of anything.

I wrote this because I thought
that there are people out there

who should know what's going on.

What was extremely
upsetting to me

was the disregard for students

and he was extremely polarizing

at a time that more polarization
was not helpful.

Well,
it caused grief, I would say

is the right way
of thinking about it.

I regard Bernie as a friend

and he had been a very good,
well, a good friend to me

in all sorts of ways
and to my family.

So, it came out of the blue.

That was the other thing.
It was a real surprise.

And I was surprised that we
hadn't discussed any of this.

I called him
and I said, "You know,

I'm really upset with what you're doing.
I find it really--"

I was having a blood pressure
problem. I said,

"I didn't want to talk about this,
but I want you to know that I--"

And I said all these things.
He called me eight o'clock the next morning,

"Bernie, we have to talk."
So, we talk.

He says,
"I know this is a sensitive issue in your family."

It's not. I have a trans daughter,
but Jane's doing extremely well.

I started saying, "No,
what bothers me..." I'm about to repeat

what I had written and he
interrupts me and he says,

"Bernie, you don't understand.

I'm willing to give up everything because I really believe this.

I'm willing to give up my job.
I'm willing to give up..."

I don't remember where else
he put on the line,

"...because I believe it."
And then he says,

"And Bernie, Tammy..." That's
his wife. "...had a dream."

I said,
"Okay, what was the dream?"

And sometimes your dreams
are prophetic.

What was the dream? She dreamed it was five minutes to midnight,

the end of the world and Jordan
is there to save us from that.

I know Jordan pretty well by now
and I'm saying,

"Okay, Jordan. There's
really nothing to talk about."

And I hung up.

So, it is true that he called me a number of times since then,

many times,
and I did not return the calls because he was on a roll.

I was watching what he was doing.
I thought he was getting nastier, angrier,

and I saw that
there was no reason to talk

because I knew-- because I knew
there was no access to Jordan

except to say, "Jordan,
you're doing a great thing

and I believe
what you're doing."

I did not do this lightly. It's not something I would have liked to do

and it's only the fact
that so many people--

I'm getting these emails from people saying they're glad that I wrote it.

That makes me feel okay,
it was the right thing to do.

"I am one of those female
academics you refer to.

I don't have tenure and I've
completed my PhD late in life.

My university has become polarized around
the issues that Peterson speaks about,

to express any opinion
on Peterson's theories,

places one firmly
in a for or anti-camp.

There is no reasoned
critique camp.

So, like a true coward,
I watch what I say,

and I stew in silence."

I think that to some degree
that it's true

that I'm a polarizing figure.

I'm a polarizing figure
because I'm adamantly opposed

to the collectivist notions of
people on the Left and the Right

and that produces a certain
amount of polarization.

But I don't think that
that can be laid at my feet.

I think it's part and parcel of the fact that we're in polarized times

and I've done what I can
when I thought it was necessary

to pull that polarization back.

What I worry about is the preacher like quality of his.

He's been interested in
the authoritarian personality.

He's be fascinated by
the horrible people in history.

His house is filled
with Stalinist art.

He says to remind him about the
awful things of that culture.

He has a number of YouTubes
which he describes

how they operate and he was
doing exactly the same thing.

I spent a lot of time
thinking about Hitler

and I was thinking,
"Well, how do you get into

a state like that you know?"
And you think,

"Well, he's a dictator and he
led his people down a bad path."

It's like, that's not right.
That is not what happened.

They had a conspiracy together

and went down a bad path.
Now, think about it this way,

the crowd's not happy
and neither are you

and there's reason for it.
You start talking to them.

You don't know what
you're upset about

and neither does the crowd.
You start to articulate

some things about why
you might be upset

and some of them fall flat,

but you're paying attention
to the crowd. Some of the things

make the crowd
really wake up and listen.

And so, you start saying
more of those things,

but it's not like you're sitting there saying,
although you might be,

"I'm going to tell this crowd
more what it wants to hear."

It's more sophisticated
than that. And so, you do that

a thousand times and you do that
to ever increasing crowds.

And the crowd
really starts to go mad.

And they basically tell you that
you're the savior of the nation.

It's like at what?
How many bloody people have to tell you that

before you start to believe it?

Franklin says, "Fans are cancer
for the authentic individual."

Well, I guess what you're pointing out is the danger of fame.

I can't say I'm particularly
comfortable with it,

which might seem
to be rather hypocritical

as it isn't like I've shied
away from exposing

my views in public.

However, I would say,

I think that's mostly
because of the responsibility.

You know I've been
terrified for a whole year

that I'd say something
unforgivably stupid

and demolish myself in public

and feel guilty and horrible about that for the rest of my life.

I can't imagine what it would
be like to be hated publicly.

I think that would just kill
me. I really think that.

Our next guest is the kind of
guy people either love or hate.

Clinical psychologist
Jordan B. Peterson

has been described as one
of the most influential thinkers

of our time, but also as
an Alt-Right figurehead

who spouts conspiracies.

People associate
you with pandering

- to like white supremacists.
- I mean you are a provocateur.

- Yeah. I never say anything--
- You're like the Alt-Right that you hate to be compared to.

Because the political agenda
that I opposed was being driven

by the people
on the radical Left.

Those are the people
that I've been...

taking to task, let's say.

Didn't expect that
the initial reaction would be,

"Oh, you must be a Nazi."

- We'll meet that with resistance.
- Sorry.

My sense is generally speaking
that if people want

to talk to me
about what I'm doing,

then I talk to them.
Now you might say,

"Well, be careful
who you talk to."

It's like,
well, fair enough.

And then one last thing,

I'm not exactly sure what
to make of the Alt-Right and--

and then one last thing,
I'm not sure what--

and then one last thing,
I'm not sure how to understand

the Alt-Right
or to characterize it

or even to know
what to think about

its hypothetical existence

or my association with it.

But I can tell you
that I'm not in favor

of people banding together
any ideological groups.

And instead would
much rather see people live

fundamentally productive
and meaningful and honest

individual lives
and in that manner be a light

unto their neighbors,
so to speak.

So, I would encourage
those of you

who are considering yourself

say on the Alt-Right
for that matter

as well
as on the radical Left to...

transcend your...

dangerous and impersonal
ideological identification

and start to live as true
individuals in the world.

That's what I think and I hope that I've been communicating that.

If I haven't, well I apologize

because that's what
I've been trying to do.

I am an icon carver.

And one of my big interests
is Christian symbolism

and symbolism in general.

I first encountered Jordan,

listening to him on the CBC.

I was driving and I couldn't
believe what I was hearing

because it was so close
to what I thought.

And so from then on, we kind
of got to know each other

and realized that we both have
a very symbolic vision

of the world.
We both see the world manifesting itself in patterns.

And so, I think
that Jordan is playing

this kind
of in between character.

And he's kind of standing
in between different sides

because the Left has been
winning the cultural war,

let's say for the past decades.

Because of that, the fact that
Jordan is standing there more,

I think he's standing
quite in the middle

and he's trying to call
the attention

to the fact that the Left
is becoming totalitarian.

Then obviously,
people who are more on the Right

are going to see him
as their hero, let's say.

I've had very, very few, but
the odd letter from and really,

I mean, I could count them
on the fingers of one hand

from Neo-Nazis self-stated
who say

some variant of
"We understand completely

that you have no time for us,
but we think you're wrong."

Okay, well.

One of the things that I think
that has been amazing

in what he's been doing,
and this is hard

for people on the Left
to really understand,

is that he is actually
been tempering the Right.

I think he knows
that he's been doing that

because we've all felt that
there is really radical Right

that's bubbling underneath
and it's there.

There's no doubt
about it that it's there.

But the problem is what
do you do with those people?

How do you interact with them?

Like if you just say,
"Oh, they're evil,

let's not talk to them.
We just need to shut them out."

They're just-- it's just
going to keep growing.

One of the things that's happened to me over the last year,

somewhat surprisingly, is
that I'd been invited to speak

in front of a lot
of conservative groups.

And you know,
I would talk about what was going on in the universities

and what I thought might constitute a reasonable antidote to that.

And that was the adoption
of responsibility.

And this was actually a saleable
message to young people.

He's saying, "Be part
of a community. Get a family,

have friends, get a job."

Like that's how
you can be a Right winger,

not this stupid Nazi flirting
with these Nazi ideology.

That's useless.

Oh, shit.

Forgot to charge my phone.

Morning.
I was going to look into those theaters this morning, but...

- Did you eat?
- No.

That's why
there's food right there.

You haven't been getting
up and doing yoga with me.

Tight-- Tight muscle.

You'll have start getting up doing yoga with me again.

So what muscle is that--
runs down my back?

It's probably levator scapulae,

because when you look at the screen you always put your chin forward...

- Oh, yeah?
- ...which makes it spasm.

- That seems stupid.
- Yeah, does too,

but I think everybody does it.

- Thanks.
- You're welcome.

Alexa, what's my schedule?

Here's are the next four events.

Today at 12:00 p.m.
there's lunch.

At 2:20 p.m. there's Ben Shapiro
interview on YouTube Channel.

At 3:00 p.m.
there's Michael Shermer.

And at 5:00 p.m.
there's Mikhaila's birthday.

Do you want to hear more?

No, I haven't read
Michael's book.

- Where is it?
- Right there.

- On the other side.
- Oh, I can't see it from there.

- No.
- I got to read that today.

I wonder how many people have
watched that high school video?

Never mind.

- You should concentrate on breakfast, dear.
- Yeah.

- What do you mean "yeah"?
- I am.

No. You haven't
to connect your computer.

See you. Okay. He's here.

I don't really like being tangled up in the political wars.

The political is interfering
with the philosophical

and psychological realm.
That's my sense.

And so, that's why I got embroiled in political conflict

with regards to bill C-16.

The way forward through
the ideological idiocy

is to strengthen the individual

and so I think when I deviate
from that, it's an error.

It's not necessarily an
avoidable error at the moment.

- Oh, look at that. You know what that is?
- No.

That's like
the first draft of my book,

Maps of Meaning1990.

It was called
War Cause and Cure.

Oh!

- This is from the NDP back in...
- Yeah.

- ...in 1977.
- That stuff should be there.

I ran for the vice-president of the NDP in Alberta

and that was the first
public speech I gave.

There was about 600 people.
My knees shook the whole time.

"I'm running for the position of general
vice-president of the New Democratic Party

because I believe I can make
a contribution to the party

in at least two specific areas
which are as follows:

Firstly, Canadian nationalism.

Being a Canadian involves
tolerance of everyone

no matter what language they
speak, the color of their skin

or what their political
beliefs might be."

George interview.
I'm amazed that you managed to keep that all those years.

Meanwhile, there's a budding socialist in Fairview

and he apparently is destined to go far in politics,
14-year-old Jordan Peterson

was almost elected to the executive of the Alberta NDP

during their annual convention during the weekend at Edmonton.

- You're in about what now, grade nine?
- 10th.

Grade 10. Two more years to go on Alberta.

Talked about Canadian unity.
How do you feel about that?

I would really like to see Canada stay together.
I really would.

What do you think you have to do to ensure that it would?

I think we need culture of some kind, something definite.

We need something that we can
really be proud of in Canada,

so to stick us close together.

That's nice. I didn't
sound like a smart aleck kid.

No, I don't
think you were.

Well, you weren't
a smart aleck kid.

Well, that's good.

Pounded if you had been.

Yeah.

The party operatives, I didn't
like them when I was 16.

They were-- I could tell
already that most of them

were driven by resentment

and that's when I read
George Orwell.

And you know, he said, "Well,
the middle-class socialist types

generally don't like the poor.
They just hate the rich."

I thought, "Oh, yeah,
that's it. That's it."

He put his finger
right on that problem.

The earliest political
memory I have,

it was when Robert Kennedy
was shot.

I don't know how old I was,
probably four or five.

I watched his funeral
and I thought,

"I'm going to have
a funeral like that."

I have no idea. I have
no idea why I thought that.

That it was-- well, that it
was a very large public event.

That there was a lot of grief
that was associated with it.

That was the first thing that really,
kind of, had an impact on me,

I suppose that was part of
the outside political world,

but I was pretty young
when that happened.

Hello. Jordan?

Mm-hmm.

- What's that?
- It's a plague doctor mask.

- A what doctor mask?
- Plague.

- Plague doctor?
- Hmm.

- Are you the plague doctor today?
- Apparently.

- Maybe not just today.
- Okay.

It's been hard. So, it's weird
seeing these two Jordans.

There's
the Jordan Peterson I know.

There's the Jordan
Peterson I see on Twitter.

And then there's the cult
of Jordan Peterson,

which also has its own ideas,

which are sometimes
only somewhat correlated

with what he actually believes.

Actually, have your neighbors
talked to you about this?

Not much. I mean,
I really haven't seen anyone,

- you know, I mean, how much have we seen each other?
- Not much.

Right, and I see you more
than I see anyone else.

- Wow.
- Yeah. How's the band going, man?

- Pretty well, um...
- Do you have a second?

- Hey, sure.
- I have been watching your lectures on YouTube recently--

- How are you doing, man?
- I'm Jessie Cooke. Nice to meet you.

- Hi, Jessie.
- You've helped me through a lot of mental shit in the past month

- and I want to thank you.
- I'm glad to hear that.

- What sort of thing?
- I'm going through some depression,

anxiety issues. My life
was out of order and, you know,

you just--
your lectures just gave me

like a bit of space to work
myself through, you know.

- Good.
- I don't know how to explain it.

- You explained it. That's fine.
- Yeah, man.

Yeah. Well, I'm really happy
to hear that.

I'm so thankful to fucking
meet you and say hello to you.

- Well, it's a pleasure.
- Keep up the great work.

- I hope to see you again.
- Good to meet you.

He's having
so many adoring fans.

He's having so many people
coming to him

and then he's
also being confronted

by people who he sees
is mischaracterizing him.

I mean, I get upset when I read
some of the horrible things

he says and he does say
horrible things sometimes.

I think he doesn't see that
when he's fighting this battle,

he's actually falling victim
to the exact same things

that he's accusing them of.

Like for a while,
one of the things I proposed

in Canada was that
the conservatives in particular,

cut the university funding
by 25 % so that the universities

would have to sort
themselves out.

But then that was
a provocative claim obviously,

but then I thought,
"Well, that's not a good idea

because it opens up the door
to political interference

- in the academy." And that's bad, conservative or Left.
- Exactly, that's right.

Like convince
people to shut down the women's studies departments

or the SJWs. That's not
opening up the dialogue.

It's a derogatory term
about a group of people.

When you take that approach,
you invalidate

the other person entirely.
You call them hysterical.

You call them
ideologically possessed.

That closes
any type of communication.

I think it actually

undermines his message.

Does it bother you
that your audience

is predominantly male?
Isn't that a bit divisive?

No, I don't think so. I mean,

it's no more divisive
than the fact that YouTube

is primarily male
and Tumblr is primarily female.

- That's pretty divisive, isn't it?
- Tumblr is primarily female.

- Do you think men and women can work in the workplace together?
- I don't know.

- Without sexual harassment?
- We'll see. We don't know what the rules are.

Like, here's a rule. How about no makeup in the workplace?
How about high heels?

- What about high heels?
- What about them?

They're there to exaggerate sexual attractiveness.
That's what high heels do.

Now, I'm not saying people shouldn't
use sexual displays in the workplace.

I'm not saying that...
but I am saying

that is what they're doing
and that is what they're doing.

Do you feel like a serious woman who does not want sexual harassment

in the workplace, do you feel
like if she wears makeup

- in the workplace that she is somewhat being hypocritical?
- Yeah.

- Okay.
- I do think that.

When you say that, when
you say these kind of things,

a woman may think that
"Oh, I might be responsible

for what this guy at the office said to me because yeah,
I was wearing make-up.

- So I'm the one to be blamed."
- That wasn't the point I was making.

No, but do you understand
that for a woman watching this

and who is a victim of sexual
harassment in the workplace--

- I don't care about that.
- You don't care about what she may feel after she hears you?

No, I don't care.
I really don't care particularly

what people feel about facts.

I thought we were talking
about masculinity.

- We are. Yes, we are.
- No, we're not.

No. Basically,
what you've been trying to do,

I would say
for the last 15 minutes

is put me into a sequence
of corners

by accusing me of various forms
of misbehavior.

It's funny, I think that
when I read these articles,

almost none of them have to do with my experience with Jordan.

Right. Here are these articles
about how he's the savior

of all the young men who is
fighting the evil oppressors

that are about
to take over the world

or he is this evil white
supremacist Nazi

who is trying to destroy everything that's good about the world.

The professor who
says equal pay for women...

Really, is that
when we want to do?

...is a load of rubbish.

These differences
between men and women,

they're not going away.

Oh, my God.

You have to travel
a long way to find true...

Like he doesn't believe...

anything the way
that it was framed there.

He's just a guy
trying to figure out

the world in this sense.

I know that he thinks
about things very deeply.

He doesn't like to admit it,

but he's a very agreeable,
compassionate person

under the gruff exterior.

And I think he's at best
when helping people

find personal meaning. You know,

that is the antidote
to extremism.

Life is suffering.

Love is the desire to see unnecessary suffering ameliorated.

Truth is the handmaiden of love.

Dialogue is the pathway
to truth,

so speech must be untrammeled,

so that dialogue can take place,

so that we can all humbly learn,

so the truth can serve love,

so that suffering
can be ameliorated,

so that we can all
stumble forward

towards the Kingdom of God.

Thank you for inviting me
to McMinnville.

When I first met him, I kind of met him in the neighborhood.

He looked a lot different
as a little kid,

but he had the intensity
that he's always had.

That had to be the third time he asked me to marry him

and I finally said yes.

So, he said, "Okay. If that's going to be the case,

if we're going to get married,
then the guiding principle

in our relationship has to be
truth or it won't work."

And... I said, "Okay."

I'd never really thought
much about it before.

You know, so I was just looking at everything

that I had built my life on

and was trying to decide whether that was going to be okay or not.

So he really put a bee
in my bonnet.

He really put a bee
in my bonnet.

Because when you first get together,
or at least when we first got together,

there was lots of old family
things to have to unpack.

And Jordan was relentless
in unpacking those things.

Say somebody was coming over
for dinner

that used to make me
very anxious.

And Jordan would, you know,

that'd be a question for him.

Why was I having trouble
with this?

Then he wouldn't let it go.
He wouldn't let it go.

We'd have to get
to the bottom of it.

We'd have to figure it out
because we didn't want

to have this argument again.

Over probably the first year
or two we were married,

oh, man, we went through
so many conversations.

Three-day-long
sometime conversations

about unpacking
old generational...

weight habits and behaviors
and beliefs and things

to become more clear
with each other

about where we stood and so that we could be standing together.

Like at every step of the way
Jordan was trying to...

help to keep
the communication going

and to keep the...

road smooth for all of us. And that was very, very helpful,

but very,
very difficult conversations.

And it worked,
it-- it really did.

People ask me
what it's been like for me

and they always approach me
like, I must have been--

this must've been scary or this
must have been overwhelming,

you know. And I travel
with him. So, I'm there,

but he really is like
plugged into the world

like he never was before.

Yeah.
Well, we'll work out a detailed tour through Europe and so--

- Okay.
- And I'm looking forward to that.

And so,
finding moments where...

we have him again
are precious moments.

It wasn't scary and it hasn't been overwhelming,

but I've lost Jordan
to the world.

- Thanks for being the father I never had.
- Hey, my pleasure.

The best story isn't in the realm of identity politics.

It isn't, well,
the Left has the best story or the Right has the best story.

It's that that whole level of analysis isn't the right story.

And the story that I'm telling people is that their lives matter

more than they think, more than they want them to even

and that their ethical
decisions determine

the direction of the world.

I'm not a huge fan of the fact

that this documentary
is being made,

I think I said
to you at the beginning

that if a documentary
was going to be made

about what was happening
at all, it should focus

on the trans community and how
it has been affected by this.

I thought that positioning it through a focus on Jordan Peterson

was just going to contribute
to his notoriety

or him building up some
anti-hero identity for himself.

Watching
how the things have developed

and he stayed in the news and people still talk about him,

you know,
he's advising candidates for like the Conservative Party

and like just getting way more
distance off that controversy

that he started than anyone
who was opposed to him did.

And what I've increasingly realized is something like

the best story will win.

I hope that what I'm doing
is telling the best story

and I think if it doesn't win,

then something that is really
not good wins instead

and that's-- I'm not comfortable with that as an alternative outcome.

Well, it's changed my life.

It's undoubtedly changed me.
I don't know how.

I haven't had enough time
to think about it.

Like, so imagine
that something really...

incomprehensible
is happening to you.

You can't believe it.
You have no place in your...

conceptual structure
to account for that

and so you feel
as if it's not real.

That's what derealization means.
It means, this isn't my life.

You're separated from it. It's because you can't comprehend it.

Well, that's-- every time
I wake up, it's like...

I wake up and then it hits me

that this all--
this is happening.

All right.
I am truly thrilled to bring this man up here.

He is at the center,
right in the center,

not just the center. He is
at the center of the center.

Here, I can-- we can do this.
Are we recording again?

So, this is what
I actually look like

and then this is what people who
don't like me think I look like.

- Yes.
- And he's become a good friend of mine

and I am thrilled and honored to bring up Dr.
Jordan Peterson, everybody.

Yeah, that's a good question.
I would say they're both real.