Jonestown: The Women Behind the Massacre (2018) - full transcript

For about the last
30 hours, we here at NBC News

have been trying to
establish what happened

last night in Guyana on
the northern coast of South

America.

The searching
American soldiers have

finished counting the
bodies in Jonestown, Guyana.

910 died in the poison ritual
of the Peoples Temple last week.

Among the bodies
were those of the temple's

fanatical founder, the
Reverend Jim Jones, his wife,

and at least one
of their children.

Most had reportedly
stood in line



to take doses of cyanide-laced
Kool-Aid from a large tub.

People want to blame
Jim Jones for the deaths,

and certainly, in many
respects, it was his vision.

But he couldn't have
done it by himself.

Carolyn,
Maria Katsaris, Annie Moore,

Marceline...

they're Jim's girls.

They're almost as
untouchable as Jim.

My sisters
were certainly involved

in planning the deaths.

They were true believers.

They were in the
leadership group.

They were on board.

That's for sure.



At the
end, his nurses and mistresses

and secretaries were the
ones who arranged things,

so it wasn't that Jim did was a
mastermind and did everything.

I lay the
suicide decision solidly

at the feet of that inner
circle that made it happen.

There was
really true goodness in Mom,

and I think Dad was latching on
to something that made him more

respectable.

And I'm sure he adored her then.

He thought, wow, she's
going to make me...

she makes me better.

- I
- met Jim Jones when

he was an orderly in the
hospital where I was in nurse's

training.

I knew there was something
special about him.

I saw greatness.

In Mom's case,
she saw the beauty in him.

She saw this big,
fat, juicy heart,

and she felt like she
could make him better.

We had been
married about two years when

he decided to become a
minister of the gospel.

We had no money, and so
Jim borrowed the money

to put a down payment on
the church in Indiana.

And that was the
first Peoples Temple.

Heaven was
created by poor people that

were working cotton fields
and working in mines

and living in hell.

Peoples Temple in its Indiana
stage was not yet a cult.

Jim and Marceline
were the kinds of Christians

who felt very committed to
a social justice gospel,

and so they took
it upon themselves

to create this
multicultural family.

They adopted a couple
of children from Asia.

They gave birth to
a son, and then they

adopted a Black child.

In fact, they were
the first white couple

that had ever adopted a
Black child in Indiana

up to that time.

We were spoken of
as the rainbow family,

but everything Dad
did was to impress.

You could've adopted
a... a Black child

without it having
to be a big show

and tell everybody about it.

He was always aware
of who was noticing

and what they thought
of what he was doing.

Mom was more genuine in her
compassion, more genuine

in her action, whereas Dad's
was ostentatious and dramatic.

Jim wanted to have
the kind of family

that people would
look at and say,

how dare you fly in the face
of white conventional society?

And he actually liked
courting antagonism.

I don't know what
Marceline's motivations were

except that they called
her Mother Jones.

She felt herself to be a mother
not just to her own children

but to the whole community.

That was one of the main
connectors between her and Jim

Jones religiously, was this
belief that God was actually

calling you to include more
people within your community.

Ultimately, it was decided that
they could do more of what they

wanted to do,
which was reach out

to vulnerable,
disenfranchised people

if they moved to
northern California.

I don't believe that they
knew when they left Indiana

that they were going to
create such a large movement.

In retrospect, the time
for her to have gotten out

would have been Indiana.

My sister Carolyn
Layton moved to Redwood Valley

in the late '60s with her
husband, Larry Layton,

and they started telling
us about this great church

that they were attending.

I owe
something to my people,

and that's to be a good pastor.

And that I am.

The minister seemed to be
able to perform faith healings

and miracles.

The group was interracial,
and it was integrated.

They were committed
to social justice,

and these were all the things
that Carolyn had been looking

for.

Carolyn
was passionately

engaged and wanting to have
social justice happen now,

and I think that her
feeling of urgency

met up with this brand new kind
of understanding of what church

could be when she walked
into Peoples Temple.

God is a
socialist..

He is one of the people.

He's an instrument of
all that you ever desire,

all that freedom embraces,
all that justice embodies.

I think
that Carolyn and so many

of those people that
joined in the late '60s

felt they were
building a new society.

It seemed to
be an activist church that

was actually working to
change people's lives.

They had homes for people
who'd been released

from the mental hospital.

They had places for
senior citizens to live.

They had a ranch.

They were doing a lot of
things, and it was quite clear

that it was worthwhile work.

As is often the case
with charismatic leaders,

followers begin to get a lot
of feelings of loyalty and love

flowing not just
from the movement

but to the head of the movement
as well, and so at some point,

Jim and Carolyn began having
a physical sexual affair.

I remember, my
dad took me out for a drive,

just me and him.

I was young.

I was 11, 12.

I felt really
special and wonderful

and nice to have time with him.

That was a rare
thing with my father.

I adored him.

And we ended up at Carolyn's
house, and I was introduced.

He was just beside himself
just with joy and just lit up.

She was the new woman.

I wanted to like her.

I wanted what she had, whatever
it is she had that he clearly

adored, because I didn't
feel that from him,

nor did I see him give
that to my mother.

They ended up in her room.

I'm on the sofa right
outside their room.

I can hear what's
going on in there.

At first, I'm wondering
what the heck it is,

and then I realise it's them.

And then when they finish,
she sings a song to him

that I can hear
through the walls.

It wasn't long after that that I
came upon my mother distraught,

and I asked her what
was going on with her.

She wouldn't tell me.

Eventually, she did tell me
that she knew about Carolyn.

I could not believe my
father would tell her,

so I figured she was just kind
of guessing it or putting two

and two together and
somehow speculating.

There's no way she
could really know.

So the way she just put
it to bed for me is she...

she hummed the song that Carolyn
sang to him after they had sex.

Marceline
Jones was aware

that Carolyn was Jim
Jones's mistress,

but I actually don't think
of her as being a mistress.

I actually think of her as being
the northern California wife.

She was the wife that
represented this new educated

group of people who had joined
with Jim and his grandiose idea

about transforming the world,
and I think, for a time,

it actually worked to the
benefit of a lot of people.

Part of the tragedy
of Peoples Temple

is that if we ended
the story in 1974,

we would probably
now be honouring

the great social justice
work of Peoples Temple.

Military officials
say that although they are not

remaining to continue
the search for survivors,

conditions in
Jonestown were so bad,

they don't see how anyone
could still be alive.

It's now four
days since 400 suicides

and killings, one of the
most astonishing stories

of our time.

Day
by day, the newspaper

would report that more
bodies were found.

It's believed
that most of the cult members

killed themselves, but some
may have been murdered.

And I'm thinking,
my sisters were true believers.

If anyone's dead,
they're going to be dead.

And in fact, in my diary,
I had written, well,

if they were responsible
for killing the children,

then... then I hope
that they are dead.

Carolyn invited us to visit
her up in Redwood Valley.

We traveled up, expecting
to see Carolyn and Larry.

Instead, she was there with
a man who was introduced

as her pastor, Jim Jones.

My sister Annie and I
were sent out on a walk.

When we got back, it was clear
that everyone had been crying,

except maybe Jim, and that
something terrible had

happened.

On the way back in
the car, my parents

disclosed that Carolyn and Larry
had gotten a quickie divorce,

and Carolyn was in a
relationship with Jim.

Needless to say, we were
devastated and shocked.

My mother just couldn't
get over, well,

why isn't Jim going
to marry Carolyn?

They didn't realise the
dynamics of sex and power

in Peoples Temple.

Jim was not going
to marry my sister

because Jim's wife,
Marceline, was much beloved

by the congregation.

Carolyn wrote a letter
to our family afterwards,

explaining that his wife could
not relate to him, you know,

sexually, and that was
why Carolyn was, you know,

stepping in to
provide that service.

Perhaps you wonder

why I talk so much about Jim.

He is everything to me.

Total acceptance and
communication make our love

deeper than I thought
possible between two humans.

Carolyn told us that Jim's
wife, Marceline, was totally OK

with their relationship.

So that was her
rationalisation to us,

and I'm not sure that
I entirely believed it.

I think even then I
might have thought,

this sounds a little bit
like a self-justification,

but nevertheless, that's what
Carolyn was telling herself.

Marcy has
been mentally disturbed

since childhood, but she has
actually been better since Jim

and I have been leading.

As Marcy herself will explain,
Jim was completely faithful

to a sick woman for 20 years.

She needed to
believe Mom was OK with it.

There was an element
of prestige, I guess,

that came along with that.

It certainly made
her feel special.

This is the great leader
of the organisations that's

going to change the world,
and he picked me, you know?

That's intoxicating.

You know, Carolyn
was not the first mistress Jim

had, nor would she be the last.

And now we have a father
who loves each one of us

so much that we don't
even have to ask,

and the blessings are there.

He wants to give us so
much that everything we

need and everything
we desire that's good

for us is there before we ask.

How thankful we
are for you, Jim.

Thank you.

I think that it's a mistake
to underestimate what women

received in return from the...
for the sexual favours that they

gave Jim Jones.

Some of these women
slept with Jim Jones

so that they could have
influence over him,

that the power actually
flowed both ways.

These were women who would
never have had the kind of power

and authority and ability
to be hands on and making

a difference like they
were in Peoples Temple,

and I think this is particularly
the case with Carolyn Moore

Layton.

One of the things that
made Carolyn different

is that she seemingly
was OK with him

being sexual with other people,
whereas my mother was not.

The women that were
sleeping with Jim Jones were

aware that each other
were sleeping with him,

and so I think that
a lot of the women

entered into that
relationship with Jim Jones

not thinking they would ever
be his exclusive partner

or get married to him.

These were people who had joined
with Jim and his grandiose idea

about transforming the
world, changing the world.

That was a very difficult
thing for Marceline.

Why
would Marceline

stay married to a philanderer
for all those years?

Is it that she got something
herself, reflected glory

from her being the mother
in Peoples Temple, Mother

Marceline?

No, I do not
believe she stayed because it

felt good.

I am convinced that
is not the case.

I hope that in
today's, you know...

in these times, a woman
can just grab our kids

and go and sort it
out with them later,

that they... they
understand that,

that it's not about the
kids being OK with it.

I don't think my mother knew
that was an option then.

We don't know
what went on between Carolyn

and Marceline
behind closed doors.

What we do know is
Marceline could have left

and could have probably
even left with her children,

but she would have
lost all these people

with whom she had been living
her life for over a decade.

And it would have meant
losing this possibility

to bring about a
transformation in the world.

Just
like everyone else,

it's painful for me to see
the person I love with someone

else.

I realise that I have
been very selfish.

I want to make a public
statement tonight

that I am willing to share
my husband for the cause

and that I won't
resent it any longer.

She hung in.

Once she hung in, yeah, you
look around and say, OK,

what good can I do here?

How can I be OK with this?

How can I get out of
bed in the morning

and... and sleep at night?

But she did the
best with what she

had and tried to make the best
of the decision she'd made.

She saw her
sacrifice of the monogamy

in her marriage as part of
what God was requiring from her

in order to make a difference
in the lives of literally

thousands of people, but
ultimately, once they moved

to Jonestown, tragedy unfolds.

Starting
in 1970, Peoples Temple

was a movement that
was taking off,

and so Carolyn Moore Layton,
who'd been involved in Peoples

Temple and sexually involved
with Jim Jones since 1969,

kept inviting both her sisters,
Becky and Annie, to come and be

a part of Peoples Temple.

Carolyn was always

kind of a serious person.

She took life seriously
and the world seriously,

and so it's not hard to
see her in Peoples Temple.

Annie, on the other
hand, she was funny,

and she was a practical joker.

So to see her transformation
from being kind of this funny,

joking person to someone who's
planning mass deaths is...

is really a struggle.

As soon as she graduated
from high school,

Annie took a trip to Redwood
Valley to visit Carolyn,

and the temple gave her the hard
sell, showing them the projects

that they were doing,
which are wonderful.

They were.

I visited Carolyn
and Peoples Temple a week or so

ago, and I am convinced that
it is a good place to be.

It seems like most of the
people who go there stay.

Carolyn,
I think, saw the temple

as a political movement.

Annie, on the other
hand, seem to see this

as a religious organisation
where people were actually

doing what Jesus
told them to do.

I don't know
if you or Mom and Dad

understand where my thinking is.

You see, I don't care if I
have a so-called good time

and take time out for
my personal pleasures.

Remember, she's 18,

and she kind of
talked in that way.

And everything was,
you know, wonderful,

and she wanted to be part
of changing the world.

I knew Annie

better than I knew Carolyn she
was always fun to be around.

She was, like, really
funny, kind of like a colt.

You know, she was, like,
lanky and just kind of... kind

of awkward in a cute way.

All I
want is to work hard

for the ultimate goal,
brotherhood for all.

I'm the gladdest I have ever
been to be in this church,

working for social
justice and brotherhood.

She joined
the temple right out

of high school.

Pretty soon after, she
began attending college

to get her nursing degree.

She entered Peoples Temple
almost as though she

were a nun entering a convent.

She sold her possessions.

She sold her guitar.

She cut her long hair, and
she became at least outwardly

serious to us.

When Annie Moore
joins Peoples Temple in 1972,

the group had expanded into
San Francisco and Los Angeles,

and it numbered
thousands of people.

At 15, I was

on a crew that
would go down early

and start passing out fliers,
go down to Market Street,

and preach about this incredible
healer named Jim Jones.

It just started growing.

He bought more buses, and then
we would go to San Francisco.

And then he bought the
temple in Los Angeles,

and so we would go to LA
and, of course, the bus

trips across the country
that were recruiting trips.

We were going to the projects,
knocking on people's doors

that were poor, and invite
them to come to Peoples Temple.

So the first meeting
was packed because we

had done all this pre-work
to get people there.

Then of course it was
a healing service.

Peace now.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, the healings were
fake, and we wouldn't know that

till later.

- I
- knew... wait a minute.

I know that guy or gal.

There's nothing wrong with
them, so I knew this was being...

there was stuff being faked.

The healings were faked.

I don't know if Annie
knew that or not.

I don't think she was
involved in the fakery,

but certainly, there was a
small group of people who...

who were involved and
who knew that, you know,

cancers were not being healed
and the lame were not suddenly

jumping up and walking.

The faith-healing
stuff bothers everyone

at first, but that's not
the most important part

of the church.

This is the largest group
of people I have ever

seen from such different
backgrounds, every color,

every age, every income
group who are concerned

about the world and are
fighting for truth and justice.

Jim Jones was continuing to
preach a gospel of inclusion

for the poor and the elderly
and a gospel of a totally

integrated power-sharing
relationship between whites

and Blacks, but in actual
fact, that wasn't happening

on a day-to-day basis.

Anyone of
at all influence in that

inner circle was white because
Dad was an insecure man

and, in his own way, a racist.

This is my opinion, strong
opinion that he believed

the Black myth, and
he was intimidated.

He didn't want to be measured
up against the Black man in bed,

so he avoided Black women.

That's why the inner
circle was mostly white.

It was all white.

So in 1973,
there was a challenge mounted

by a group of young people
wanting to call the Peoples

Temple leadership
into accountability

for their hypocrisy for saying
that they were inclusive when

in fact they weren't.

They wrote a manifesto
before they left the temple.

It said white women
would join the temple

and within a matter of weeks
would be promoted to positions

of leadership, and one of
the people they pointed out

in this regard was
my sister Annie.

They also said that the
rhetoric in Peoples Temple

was all about sex, and I can
appreciate what they were

saying because the letters
from Annie and Carolyn

talk about sex.

Annie said, you know,
everyone's a homosexual,

and I'm a homosexual.

And Jim's the only person
who has healthy sex.

Carolyn wrote
about sex with Jim,

and since then, we've learned
that he would have people

perform sex acts in
front of the group.

Or he would humiliate people
by making them undress.

I don't think that Carolyn and
Annie joined Peoples Temple

thinking that they
would be involved

in physical or sexual abuse.

I think that kind
of little, you know,

morality problems
along the way were

insignificant to
the greater cause.

I think
they had that thought that, you

know what?

It doesn't matter that
there's a difference here.

There is not equality,
because we're

helping those poor people.

You know, we're really
doing good work for them.

I'm shining because I'm doing
my part, even though I'm

taking advantage of them.

But how do you,
as a human being,

know this and take advantage?

And you're taking advantage
of little senior citizens.

Some of these Black women
had horrific childhoods,

had horrific experiences, and
they come to Peoples Temple.

And they're showed all
this love, and it's fake.

It's fake.

We want your blood,
and we want your sweat.

And we want your tears.

You want your money.

We want you to go out
there, and we want you

to beg for money for the cause.

We want everything that you
have to where once you give

everything, you don't have
anything else but this,

and it worked.

Now, now will each
of you give a very fond embrace,

a salutary kiss of
greeting to your neighbour.

Let's fill this
atmosphere with warmth.

Sometime
in the summer of 1974,

Carolyn told my parents that
she was pregnant with Jim Jones'

child.

She told them that she'd been
on her way to an abortion clinic

but that Jim had stopped
her because the child had

to be born.

And
Marceline, Jim's wife,

had given public testimony
saying, I understand.

I need to share my
husband with the cause.

But privately, she
died a thousand deaths

trying to deal with the
fact that Jim was having

these relationships
with these other women,

especially when he and Carolyn
ended up having a child

together.

From the beginning,

he was called Kimo, which
is "Jim" in Hawaiian.

As time wore on,
Carolyn was somewhat

in the role of Jim's wife,
Marceline, in that she also

came second to other
lovers that Jim took on.

Maria
stayed in the same commune

that I was in in
Redwood Valley, and we

were both put on the planning
commission on the same night.

She rose quite quickly into
a position of leadership.

- I
- knew Maria quite well.

She was much younger, much
more naive than Carolyn

and really such a
different personality.

Carolyn, you know, was not as
easily manipulated as Maria.

I think Jim targeted her because
she was 18 and a day old,

and so he liked young meat.

Maria was one of the ones, also,

that was part of
his inner circle.

From my understanding,
she was a good bed partner

for him or something, and
so she had privileges.

She was like one of the ones
that you didn't talk to,

almost like Carolyn.

You didn't really talk to them
unless they talked to you,

because if not, she
would be bothered,

and if she's bothered, then
he's going to be bothered.

- I
- think that some women that

slept with Jim saw that they
were considered special,

that they were chosen
to be with him,

and therefore felt that they
were better than others.

Absolutely, I believe that.

Absolutely.

I do think that Jim Jones
took advantage of people

like Annie Moore
and Carolyn Layton

and other women who came
to join Peoples Temple.

He took advantage
of their desire

to do a lot of good in
society, and at the same time,

I think that they took
advantage of the fact

that there weren't any checks
and balances on the kind

of authority and power
that they could wield.

I think it wasn't until
criticism from concerned

relatives and the media started
to mount that that sort of

began to fall apart.

My parents told me that some
really bad news had come out

about Peoples Temple.

The writers for the article
interviewed former members.

There were allegations
of sexual activity

on the part of Jim Jones.

There were allegations
about corporal punishment

within Peoples Temple.

There were allegations
about financial wrongdoing.

Carolyn and Annie
explained, oh, those people

have always been
a bunch of liars,

or, oh, well, they're
known child molesters.

Or you can't trust
what those people say.

They embezzled money
from the church.

All of
the stories about us

are lies told to discredit the
good projects we have done.

All I can say is I have
never seen such atrocious

lies in my life.

And so for the
leadership circle of Peoples

Temple, there was an awareness
that as criticism mounted,

there would need to be a
place where people could move

to in case the community
was going to be disbanded.

Jim left
before the article was actually

published.

There is no way that he could
have withstood the backlash

and the investigations that
this was going to cause,

and so he ran.

He ran, and that's when his
entire world fell apart.

In 1974,
this piece of property

was bought in Guyana, and
an agricultural project

was set up.

And they called it Jonestown.

I mean, they used
to sing this song,

going to the promised land,
going to the promised land,

but he presented as a place to
visit for a while, to cool out,

a vacation land,
that type thing.

I was
curious about Jonestown.

I wasn't overly eager to go.

And then Maria came up
to me one afternoon,

and she told me that I was
going to be going the next day.

And so I did.

People in Jonestown
participated in creating a film,

playing up what
Jonestown was supposed

to be like at the time.

Today, all the
children of Jonestown

are having a fun-day parade,
having a fun-day parade,

and they're going
all around Jonestown

and showing their happiness
and how... how well they love it

here in Jonestown.

And if you can see
how happy they are...

and they really love it here
in Jonestown, as you can see.

These are potato chips
made from plantain,

and they're more delicious.

They're a combination of
potato chip and a French fry.

And radishes, mm, mm, mm.

Here are the people
at the table,

eating an afternoon snack.

You don't know what
you're missing down here.

It had dormitories.

There was a pavilion where
public gatherings would take

place, a kitchen, an
infirmary, school buildings.

It was like a small
town right there

in the middle of the jungle.

Carolyn was
in charge of a public school

system.

Annie was basically in
charge of a medical center.

They lived
in the cabin with Jim Jones

along with Maria
Katsaris, another one

of Jim's main mistresses.

Dear
Pop, how are you feeling?

I can honestly say I've never
been happier or healthier.

I do different
things around here.

I sort of help
coordinate, but I also

spend time in the medical
clinic and in the school.

By the
end of the summer of '77,

a lot of people were
coming over and more

all the time because Jim wanted
as many people out of the San

Francisco area and away from
the "New West Magazine" as soon

as he could.

When
we went to Jonestown,

Mom came over much later
because she stayed behind

to manage things.

Mrs. Jones, why
has not your husband returned

to the United States to respond
to any of these charges?

The organisation decided that
if our people were going there

and any people were going
there that his presence was

necessary in order to...

his leadership was necessary.

She was trying
to manage what should not

be managed from a
healthy point of view.

She got lost in
it in that respect

because then she was just
playing triage, the worst

kind of triage.

This wholesale
move to Jonestown

served the purpose of keeping
Jim Jones from being seen

by outsiders because by the time
Jim Jones moves to Jonestown,

he is addicted to phenobarbital.

And that's when the
women really took over

and where he began serving
them instead of the other way

around.

While the people
inside this Yucaipa home

say they fear for the lives
of their friends and family

far away in that Peoples
Temple in Guyana,

they say they fear for
their own lives as well.

The Reverend Jim Jones works
in some very unexpected ways.

This picture here is
the picture for socialism.

What do you mean?

Well, everybody's
supposed to be in this one,

and this is what he would
preach when he put on that robe.

That's what he would say when
he had his hand up like that,

socialism, socialism, socialism,
but nothing but a lie.

Today, the Peoples
Temple said that this is...

they had nothing to do... that...
that the Peoples Temple would

never have anything
to do with violence.

Do you believe them?

Oh no, that's the
biggest lie ever was told.

Ain't nothing but violence.

By the time they
transition to Jonestown,

Jim Jones became increasingly
addicted to drugs,

and his behaviour of
slurring his words,

stumbling around, being
incoherent and disoriented

at times was explained away
by Annie and other women

in leadership as him being sick.

He was a drug addict
addicted to phenobarbital,

and so the women
then were in charge.

Within the circle,

Carolyn was the one who
organised everything.

I mean, I do think
that behind the scenes,

she was kind of the mastermind
of that inner circle.

My understanding
of Annie's role in Jonestown

is that she did
some nursing care,

but her primary
role in Jonestown

was to be Jim Jones'
personal nurse.

And what that entailed, I think,
was, you know, giving him,

you know, uppers in the
morning and downers at night.

It would have been very easy
to undermine Dad at that point,

very easy if that was
what folks wanted to do,

but apparently, those
in his leadership circle

wanted to carry
his agenda forward.

I really do believe that with
Jim's insanity that his nurses

and mistresses and secretaries,
they caught that same insanity.

you aware
that you're rolling?

No, but I just want to
tell you right now, OK?

I'm just telling you that you
say there's a lot of this,

and you can't believe that.

I'm telling you that
you have never met up

with a man like Jim Jones.

Are you saying
Jones is a bad man?

Well, I think what he's done
to the people is really bad,

so I guess, in that essence,
either he's very bad,

or he's very sick.

And he's probably very sick.

The Concerned Relatives,
which was a group that strongly

opposed Jim Jones
and Peoples Temple,

was organised in
part by Tim Stoen

along with his wife, Grace.

They had left Peoples Temple
and were seeking custody

of their son, John Victor, whom
they had left behind in Peoples

Temple in the care of
Carolyn, Maria Katsaris,

and other members there.

How is it that Jim
Jones has your son?

It's easy for someone to
stay out there and say, well,

if it was my child, I
would have never left.

You know, I'm a mother, and I
would have never left my child.

Well, I... you know, I've
been fighting this legal case

for two years,
trying to get John,

and I'll just keep on
trying and trying and...

you know, until it's a dead end.

The custody battle over John
Victor was extremely bitter.

Part of the reason for this
was because Jim claimed

to be the father.

Grace was
one of those people who

had had a sexual
relationship with Jim Jones,

but she was also married and
having a sexual relationship

with her own husband as well.

And so in the beginning days
of John Victor Stoen's life,

it wasn't really known
who the father was,

and this was part of what was
at the heart of the custody

battle.

Maria Katsaris was a kind of
surrogate mom for John Victor

during the years after his
mother and father defected

from Peoples Temple, and he was
raised alongside Kimo, Carolyn

Moore Layton and Jim Jones' son.

And they were really raised
to be like siblings of one

another, and from all
accounts Maria Katsaris

loved this child like
her own and really took

excellent care of him.

This custody battle

might have been a kind of
turning point in the psychology

of those living in Jonestown.

Peoples
Temple decided

to draw a line in the sand
around the custody of John

Victor Stoen.

The
issue of John Stoen

is not an isolated
custody case to us.

If he were taken
from the collective,

it would be number one in a
series of similar attempts.

No child here would
ever again feel secure

if we handed over John Stoen.

Nobody in Jonestown

would be safe if he were
returned to Grace and Tim.

And so when the
lawyers for the Stoens

attempted to serve
papers in Jonestown,

Jim Jones freaked out.

There was mass hysteria.

Everyone in the
community was up in arms,

defending what they
thought was going

to be an attack by government
forces or US forces.

It wasn't clear.

All that was clear was
that they were very afraid.

He pulled
everybody else into his drama

and his pathology.

I think that people were
manipulated into believing

that we were in danger when
we weren't necessarily.

I remember
sitting there, looking out

at the jungle, thinking,
how was I going to die?

Was it going to be
quick, or would they, you

know, take us and torture us.

We wouldn't know till later
that everything was staged,

and John Victor
Stoen was probably,

you know, a pawn
like everybody else.

So now the
story had to escalate.

Dad came up with this
whole staged thing

where they were really
going to come and try

to take John Victor away.

And the plan was,
I would take John,

and I would fake like he was...

somebody tried to abduct him.

I would personally somehow
throw something over his head,

but then I would rescue him.

At some point, Maria and Carolyn
just pulled me off to the side,

and they said, we can't...
we can't let him do this.

You've got to stop it.

Certainly, in this case, Maria
was protecting John Victor.

She didn't want him to
go through that terror.

If you just say, no, no
way, they get somebody else.

What you have to
do in situations

like that is to find a way to
steer it in another direction,

and that's what they were doing.

And to me, that was kind
of a glimpse into the...

they worked it
whenever they could.

I think that
Carolyn was probably

trying to manage
things to a better end,

but at whatever point she had
a chance to take a step back,

she was too heavily invested.

At any moment,
the marshal could be coming in

to arrest Jim.

We've decided that we would
die if that were required,

and it seems to us that it is.

In Jonestown,
the leadership circle

knew that eventually the outside
forces that were attempting

to tear them down
would have success.

The whole
dramatic focus of this

was this battle,
this custody battle

to regain custody of
John Victor Stoen,

and the entire community
had been mobilised

against this threat,
which was more in the...

created by Jim Jones
than in reality.

Annie and Carolyn repeatedly
said in their letters

that they were willing to die
for what they believed in.

I think it was a
gradual transformation

within the temple in which
revolutionary suicide, which

meant dying for
what you believe in,

became transformed into suicide
committed by revolutionaries

to make a point.

I don't know
at what level Mom facilitated

things.

Part of her was lost in
trying to manage and mitigate

what my father did and
perhaps right to the end.

I lay the
suicide decision solidly

at the feet of that inner
circle that made it happen,

and the people who were
at the forefront of this

were Annie Moore, Carolyn
Layton, Maria Katsaris,

and the other women in
the leadership circle.

In Jonestown, Jim Jones would
be speaking over the loudspeaker

during most waking hours.

It was horrible.

You just... I just...

I would cringe when I hear
it, and then I get angry.

Please, would somebody
just, you know, end this?

We just went into this whole
place of darkness and despair.

I think people were just so
tired because you didn't know

what was real.

We had no news from the outside
world except what he gave us.

If they had said there
was a nuclear war,

we would have believed it
because we had no contact

with the outside world.

We don't always
factor in just how hard life

was in Jonestown, how
exhausted people were,

and how there was
no end in sight.

There was no way for
that jungle commune

to be able to sustain
that many people.

Plus, 2/3 of the people were
elderly or children, which

meant that it was a small number
of people who were actually

running the day-to-day
operations of feeding

the community, doing laundry,
cleaning up, disposal

of garbage, making sure that
there was medicine available,

education, and all
the other things that

make a... make a town work.

Jonestown was
a terrible place to live.

They were dire times.

Dad was deeply
troubled and crazed

by the threat he perceived.

More
and more, Jim Jones

was becoming a figurehead
in his own movement

because he's not good at
the bureaucratic, day-to-day

running of an organisation.

He was great at
getting people to join,

but he was not
good at maintaining

the health of the community
on a day-to-day basis.

People
wondered about him possibly

being on drugs
because when he would

talk on the loudspeaker
from his cottage,

he would slur his words.

Soon after
Mom moved to Jonestown,

she came to me and
said, we've got

to get your father off drugs.

We've got to isolate
him, and we're

going to have to just get
him off drugs, you know?

Even now, that's just
such a crazy statement.

Like, and what I
said to her was, Mom,

you don't tell God he's
got a drug problem,

but she would even latch
onto that as a possibility.

I don't know.

I think it's evidence of
how lost she was in managing

that situation.

At that point, we saw less
and less of each other.

And I think that that
was in large part

that Dad wanted her way,
and she wanted to be away.

She also... when she
would come into town,

she did not make
things easy for him.

I think he felt
guilty, first of all,

so having her not around made
it easier for him to just be

in his new life and other life.

Jones said publicly, Marceline

and I no longer
have a relationship.

Her cottage is over there
on that side of Jonestown,

and he had just had
one recently built

on the other side of Jonestown.

I think that
Marceline Jones felt more

and more irrelevant the
longer that Jonestown went on,

and the broader
group did not see her

as being that important.

Long gone were the
days of Indiana when

she was known as Mother Jones.

She was not the mother
to the community anymore.

I remember
one time, I'm awakened.

My father's calling,
and he wants

to have a conversation with me.

He's just propped up in bed
with that ridiculous hat of his.

His sunglasses are on.

Carolyn is hovering
off to the right.

At some point, he looks at her,
and she quickly scurries in.

And she shoots him up
intravenously with something.

He says to me, don't worry.

It's just B12.

Within seconds, that B12 had
him slurring words and nodding

and just wasted.

And I looked over at
her, and she was crying,

looking just completely lost.

I feel it was that she
recognised what they'd become,

that her dream was lost.

I think
that Carolyn was probably

pretty lonely in Jonestown, that
she didn't have any friends.

How can you be friends with
the mistress of the leader?

Anything you said to that
person would go back directly

to Jones.

So I imagine her living kind
of in a cone of isolation.

The only alternative was
interaction with her son, Kimo,

who is, like, engaging and
funny and warm and loves her,

and it's not clear to her at
that point who still might love

her.

I have no idea how Carolyn and
Annie related to each other,

what it was like
to, you know, share

the cabin along with
Maria, but what's

interesting about Annie's
relationship or role in all

that is that there was
a letter that was found

in Jonestown that she wrote to
Jim Jones in which she said...

I just wanted for
you to know that I do not mind

being your nurse, and there is
nothing more I would rather be.

I would rather be around you
than anyone else in the world.

I will do everything I can
think of to help keep you going.

You can't
separate yourself from that...

that investment, that...

all that you've poured in
there, how you're compromised

yourself, how you've
colluded, and how you're

tainted by all of that.

It was only a matter of time.

Well, think
that Jim Jones took his group

down there because he was
afraid to face the publicity

and answer the questions
here in this country,

and I don't think that he feels
confident having people talk

to their relatives.

I think the only way he
can survive and sustain

what he started
is to isolate all

his followers from this country
and from their families.

Back
in the United States,

the Concerned Relatives, working
with Maria Katsaris' father,

Steven Katsaris, and others,
organised a very well-planned

strategy to heighten public
awareness about what they felt

were the dangers of Jonestown.

They wrote a declaration
of human rights violations.

Jones did this.

Jones does that.

Jones censors letters.

Jones won't let people
leave, and so on.

These actions might well have
been legitimate, but back

in Jonestown, it feels
like they're under attack.

This declaration
prompted a response

from Peoples Temple members,
including Maria Katsaris.

OK, do you copy?

I copy.

I don't think
Maria was brainwashed at all.

I think she made a
series of commitments

and that she lived within a
community that could not admit

its mistakes.

Maria's only choice in order
to stay loyal to her people

was to openly
condemn her father.

Steven loved his
daughter, and he

had a lot of high hopes
for the kind of life

that she would lead.

And I think he
represented, like so many

of the Concerned Relatives,
this kind of horror at the idea

that their children
or their loved ones

could turn their back
on the outside world.

My father did not
agree to be part of Concerned

Relatives, again, because
both he and my mother

did not want to do anything that
would rupture the relationship

that they had with
Carolyn and Annie,

and this was definitely
confirmed by the fact

that my folks visited Jonestown.

And the reports were pretty
glowing because, as usual,

they only saw the
positive aspects of life

in Peoples Temple and Jonestown.

They had a good visit.

They saw life in
Jonestown the way

it could have been had
things really gone well.

The work was hard, and
the conditions were tough.

But there seemed to
be enough to eat,

and people seem to
be in good spirits.

That might have been
a false impression,

but certainly,
they were relieved

to see that my sisters were OK.

When they came back,
the Temple leadership

asked them to have a press
conference to counteract

the bad publicity that they
had received from the Concerned

Relatives.

They felt that people
were engaged in something

meaningful in Jonestown, and
that... that they were doing

something that they
felt was important.

Even then, my parents were
kind of unwitting pawns

or certainly unaware of what
was happening behind the scenes.

Unknown to them, a couple of
days before they were there,

Debbie Layton made her escape.

Debbie was
treasurer, a secretary,

and she was sent to Georgetown,
which is 150 miles away.

And she went to the
American embassy

and let them know
the man's crazy.

He's going to kill those people.

I want to go home
back to California.

Debbie left and
went public with her charges

that there were suicide drills,
that people were mistreated,

that people were drugged,
and that she left in order

to really save her own life
but also to save the lives

of people who she left behind.

And that was a huge blow
to the leadership of Peoples

Temple, and the way that Jim
Jones and his leadership circle

reacted to it was dramatic.

I remember we were weeding the pineapple

fields, and he
just starts saying,

alert, alert,
alert, alert, alert.

And I asked my leader, Jasmine.

I said, what is that?

She says, go immediately
to the pavilion.

Do not stop.

He began to share with us that
there had been a defection.

He won't let you.

He... he won't let anybody out.

It's gone too far.

I mean, we were put through
a suicide trial once.

What's
a suicide trial?

He had a big meeting.

He said it was over, that the
mercenaries were coming in.

There was very little time left.

Everyone stood in a line,
went up, and drank this red...

you know, it was a kind of a...

tasted like... what's this...

that thing... the drink
little children drink,

but you have to put a
lot of sugar in it first?

- Kool-Aid?
- Kool-Aid.

Debbie Layton had come out
and reported that there were

suicide drills, a
lack of adequate food,

a general atmosphere
of fear and terror

that were going on
in the community,

but we just didn't take
those reports seriously.

We never thought that they
would kill themselves.

That never occurred to us as
a possibility, I mean, really.

What I'm trying
to say is, if we make a stand

or decide to die, how
are we going to do it?

Do you give everyone pills?

Perhaps planning is
the answer to all this.

Carolyn was very involved

in organising at all because
that was her role always.

She was very much the
mastermind of what was going on.

I think that Annie, you know,
would help out her sister

because she was
the younger sister,

and they had that relationship.

If we
killed ourselves,

maybe we would be
categorised as lunatics,

but at least we would be assured
that our people could not

sell out or be tortured
or taken and brainwashed.

It's painful to relate, but
I know that my sisters were,

you know, certainly involved
in planning the deaths.

There were letters that went
back and forth that while it

doesn't state the
orders explicitly,

it was clear that
poison was what...

the letter that Annie
wrote to Carolyn.

Poison is what was suggested.

I never
thought people would line up

to be killed.

I actually think a select group
would have to kill the majority

of people secretly.

The way?

I don't know... exhaust
fumes in a closed area

while people are asleep,
poisoning food or water supply.

There had to be a
decision made about how much

cyanide per how much flavour aid
that would be necessary to kill

all the people in the community,
and the people who were

at the forefront of this
were Annie Moore, Carolyn

Layton, Maria Katsaris, and the
other women in the leadership

circle.

Jim's
followers enabled him.

They reinforced
his own delusions.

The leader corrupts the
followers by telling them lies,

but the followers
corrupt the leader

by pretending to
believe the lies.

And so there's this dynamic
relationship between Jim Jones

and Carolyn and Annie and
everybody where they accepted

each other's delusions,
and ultimately, it

led to the tragedy of Jonestown.

Congressman Leo Ryan
and his party of people related

to cult members, reporters,
and cameramen left the United

States for Georgetown, Guyana,
hoping to get to Jonestown.

The
Concerned Relatives, working

with Maria Katsaris' father,
Steven Katsaris, and others,

got together and strategised
about ways to rescue or save

their relatives in Jonestown,
and their efforts ultimately

led to persuading Congressman
Leo Ryan to visit Jonestown.

Congressman Ryan was one of
these amazing larger-than-life

public figures.

Well, we're in the
process of determining...

trying to determine the degree
of concern we should have.

And so when he
was approached by Concerned

Relatives, he organised
a visit in order

to do some investigation
into whether the things

that the Concerned
Relatives were saying

were accurate or not.

In Jonestown, the leadership
circle was not sure

whether Jim would be able
to communicate adequately

with Congressman Ryan, and there
was lots of planning for there

to be just brief meetings with
Jim Jones but lots of singing

and lots of interactions
with other people.

And Marceline was
to give the tour,

and there was a lot of
pressure on the leadership

to make everything look OK at
Jonestown, even though they

knew that it was, in
fact, falling apart.

The
stage had been set long

before his arrival
for the mass murders

and suicides in Jonestown.

The poison had
already been ordered.

The poison had been tested
on pigs in the community.

There were a few people
who were in on the secret,

but the plan obviously
had already been made.

The only thing that
was in question

was, when would the
plan be implemented?

Are you happy here?

Yes, I'm very happy.

Do you know that
your father and your brother

are convinced that you're not?

I'm very happy here.

I don't know what else I
can do to convince them.

I've talked to my brother
several hours now,

and as far as my
father's concerned,

you know, I... so far, he has
said what he wants to say,

which has not been the truth.

He's asking me to come
back to the United States

to spend a week to
convince him and my family

that I'm not being held
here against my will,

and I don't plan to return at
this time to convince anybody

because I know I'm happy here.

And I know my mind.

Maria previously had

been cheerful and easygoing,
and she... she became somewhat

hard and distant.

All that mattered was what
was happening around Jim

and what she was told to do.

The leadership
decided that what they needed

to do was put on an
excellent program

so that they could turn down
the volume on the criticism that

was coming.

That might have worked out fine,
except that while Congressman

Ryan was there with his camera
crew and some journalists

from San Francisco, a note got
handed to one of them saying

that two people
wanted to defect.

Last night, someone
came and passed me this note.

Congressman Ryan
asked if there was anybody else

that wanted to leave.

A family of eight
and a family of six

who had been with Peoples
Temple for 20 years had had it.

They were exhausted.

They were sick,
and they were done.

And they asked to leave, and so
they left with Congressman Ryan

and the rest of the news crew.

You get back here!

Hold on a second.

You are... you bring them back!

One second.

Don't you touch my kids.

Hold on a second.

Mother, they
on taking my kids.

Wait, wait,

No.

Wait.

And they went to the
Port Kaituma Airstrip

in order to leave Guyana.

It was clear to the
leadership of Peoples Temple

that these were enemies, that
these were people who were

defecting, that these were
people who were going to bring

about the disbanding
of the community.

This was the moment when the
real choice between are we

together in death or are we
dispersed in life came to pass,

and it was because Congressman
Ryan had come for this visit.

This is "NBC Nightly News"
with Jessica Savage reporting.

Good evening.

The government of Guyana sent
troops into the remote jungle

of that country,
a jungle which was

the scene of a bizarre
chain of events that

led to the deaths of an American
Congressman and three newsmen.

They were gunned
down as they tried

to escort unhappy
settlers from the camp

of an American religious sect.

They were going back home.

The report came back
that people from Peoples Temple

had opened fire on Congressman
Ryan and his film crew.

Congressman Ryan, Don Harris,
and two other journalists

died on the Port
Kaituma Airstrip.

This is the point at which
you realise that a plan was

in place for everybody to die.

At the time, I
was representing the Peoples

Temple in... in a basketball
tournament in Georgetown,

and I don't know how things got
out of control at the airstrip.

I don't know.

I'm sure the order
came from my father.

So at that point, I think
he knew he was lost,

so that's why the
vat is brought out.

This time, it's real.

And so the
conversation began by Jim Jones

saying the time for
revolutionary suicide

has begun.

At that point, perhaps
there still would

have been a moment where
Marceline Jones might have

stood up and said,
let's not do this.

I think Marceline's role
in legitimizing the call

to suicide was in her silence.

I really do think that she was
herself so exhausted from all

these years of having
no privacy, no resources

of her own, sharing her
husband with the women

of the community, seeing that
this ideal had become instead

this insular, paranoid,
violent community

that I think she didn't have
it in her to fight anymore.

I don't believe
and it's not my understanding

that she was one of the people
who orchestrated the suicide.

A part of her was lost in
trying to manage and mitigate

what my father did and
perhaps right to the end.

I don't know.

Truthfully, more than likely,
I probably would have died,

too, because he had painted
the picture that a mysterious

they was going to
come in and take our lives,

that we had nowhere to go.

I think there would have
been no other way out.

I wasn't even think about
running because they had

the crossbows and ammunition
and all the other stuff,

so I think I probably
would have taken my life.

- I
- think on the 18th was...

there's so many
dynamics to that day.

And I believe that there
were some people that

were just exhausted.

I believe some people didn't
know that it was actually real.

I think people just thought,
well, what am I going to do?

Who do I have to go home to?

The night before, my
mother looked at me,

and she said, baby, I'm tired.

And she was 50 years old.

On the tape,
you hear a woman's voice,

and she starts to tell
people how to line up

to take the
cyanide-laced Kool-Aid

and to instruct people to give
it to their children first.

And then the dying begins.

I don't really know where
Carolyn and Annie were

in Jonestown on November 18.

There are conflicting
reports about Annie.

Some say that she was one of the
nurses that was administering

the poison.

Others say, no, she
was in Joan's cabin,

taking care of her nephew
Kimo and John Victor Stoen.

Carolyn does not seem
to be present anywhere,

neither in the pavilion where
the deaths were occurring,

nor in Joan's cabin,
but she was definitely

part of the planning process in
deciding how people were going

to die.

I lay the
suicide decision solidly

at the feet of that inner
circle that made it happen,

because Jim Jones could have
talked all day about committing

suicide, but he was not in a
position to order the cyanide,

figure out the formula, mix
it, and force it on people.

So that meant that
he had people who

were complicit in that
decision and in the carrying

out of that decision.

They were on board,
that's for sure.

I don't know at what point
the scales tip and you

yourself are lost in the...

the delusion and the extremism.

I don't know how
that happens, where...

where you just completely
lose yourself to the story,

but they clearly had.

There's debate
about the extent to which

people were forced
to take the poison,

and certainly, the
children were murdered.

But most of them were
murdered by their parents.

The masterful stroke was
persuading or forcing

people to kill their
children, and that's

quite clear on the tape that
the children are brought forward

first.

And after they're killed,
the tape ends with,

"and now the adults
come forward."

After you kill
your child, what's

your percentage in living?

I believe... and many
people agree with this...

there was one vat of poison.

It really only took
one person to go up

and kick that thing over,
and Dad would have been...

he wouldn't have gotten it done.

Once the dying
had begun at the pavilion

and people were
actually already dead,

and it was clear that everybody
else was lining up in order

to get their
cyanide-laced Kool-Aid,

then Carolyn and Maria
went into the cabin

that they had shared
with Jim Jones and Annie.

And they gave cyanide
to their children,

and then they drank
it themselves.

One of the autopsies that
was done was of Carolyn,

and it was clear that she
had both injected herself

and drank the Kool-Aid so
that she was sure to die.

When the dying had stopped,
still Jim Jones lived.

He did not himself drink the
Kool-Aid of this organisation,

this church, this movement
that he had founded,

and at the very end
of the suicides,

the two people left alive
were Jim Jones and Annie.

And so Annie Moore, his nurse,
took a gun and shot him.

Annie presumably was one
of the last people to die.

There's some speculation
that she shot Jim Jones.

I don't know what to think.

On the one hand, that supposedly
would prove what a coward

he is.

He can't even kill himself,
or maybe that's his last power

trip, is to have
someone else kill him.

But Annie left essentially
a suicide note,

and then she shot
herself in Joan's cabin.

I am 24
years of age right now

and don't expect to live.

I thought I should at
least make some attempt

to let the world know what Jim
Jones and the Peoples Temple

is or was all about.

I would say that Annie
Moore was the last loyalist

to the movement
and to Jim Jones.

Jonestown, the
most peaceful, loving community

that ever existed,
Jim Jones, the one who

made this paradise possible.

She
also was somebody

who had given her whole
life over to the movement.

She believed that what they were
doing was making a difference,

that they really had
improved the lives of people,

and she was angry that the
outsiders that were detractors

against Peoples Temple had not
seen the good that they had

done.

What a
beautiful place this was.

The children loved
the jungle, learned

about animals and plants.

There were no cars
to run over them,

no child molesters to molest
them, nobody to hurt them.

They were the freest, most
intelligent children I had ever

known.

We died because he would
not let us live in peace.

Carolyn
and Annie and, I think,

most of the members
of Peoples Temple

were drawn to it by a
strong desire to do good,

that they wanted to
change the world.

They thought that by being
part of Peoples Temple,

they could change the world.

It's sad.

I mean, how does a person get
from one place to the other?

Some
of the funniest,

intelligent, creative
people that I've ever known

were in the Temple, and
we knew how to have fun.

And we seized those
moments for sure.

It doesn't mean that
Jonestown was a happy place.

Jim was
not standalone responsible

for every single thing.

I mean, at the end, his nurses
and mistresses and secretaries

were the ones who
put out the poison.

They were the ones
who arranged things.

So it wasn't that Jim
did was the mastermind

and did everything.

At the end, at the end,
it was his secretaries

who went on and
fulfilled his wishes.

People want to blame
Jim Jones for the deaths,

and certainly, in many
respects, it was his vision.

But he couldn't have
done it by himself.

There were lots of enablers.

There were lots of helpers.

One of
the people who survived...

and this woman lost her
children in Jonestown.

Many years later,
we got together.

And she came up to me, and she
was talking about my mother.

And she said, your mother...
it was just all praise...

lovely person.

She's the reason I stayed.

And she meant that
as a compliment,

but as she was saying
it, she caught it

because, you know,
them staying led

to the death of their children.

Maria
Katsaris, Annie Moore, Carolyn

Layton, and, of course,
Marceline took a situation,

and they gained power from it.

And they were able to manipulate
a huge number of people

and influence Jim in ways
that I'm sure that they did,

but they knew exactly
what was going on.

They're accountable, also.

They're enablers, so I...

I don't have a lot of
compassion for them.

And I don't pity them.

I just think I
forgive them, though.

I... I forgive them.