Hollywood Banker (2014) - full transcript

My name is Rozemyn Afman
and I am the daughter of Frans Afman.

My father was a
prominent Dutch banker

who had always wanted to write a
book about his adventures in Hollywood.

He became a major player in the
independent film industry during the 1980s.

To help him, I started
interviewing him as a labor of love.

But it became for me, a journey of
discovery into my father's life and times.

Marker A and B cam.

Oh, I have to do it in English,
right?

Yes,
we are doing it in in English.

Okay,
are there any questions from the audience?

That's very funny.
Actually I do have a question.



Papa.

What would you like to
know about Frans Afman?

Oh, um... Yeah, I think the...

What is interesting
I think that...

How is it possible that

a guy from a medium Dutch bank,
a medium-sized Dutch bank

was able to invent a completely
new structure for film financing.

Because I am a simple banker.

That's probably the only question,
the rest is not interesting.

Let me tell you about the
era of Frans Afman if I may.

You have no idea the
amount of power this one man

truly wielded.

With the wave of that finger.

Well,
he needed this one also to sign.



Oh,
I thought it was the middle finger?

No, no, no. He had to use the both
of them together to sign the things.

He pretends he's a producer,
but in fact he is a PR person.

Give you another story. I would go to the,
to his offices in Holland

and he'd have a waiting room,

and the waiting room was
the who's who of Hollywood.

You'd sit out there,
They would be sitting there like this.

From Dino De Laurentiis
to Menahem Golan

to Andy and Mario,
who were coming over.

They would all be
sitting around and waiting.

We'd be like little children,
waiting.

They would get the
financing that they need,

they would get
solved their problems,

they walked out
with the solutions.

Over a period
of more than 20 years,

my father financed
over 900 films.

He did so through two
European banks he worked for.

First, Dutch Slavenburg's bank

and later the French
Credit Lyonnais.

He played an important role in the
creation of films such asSuperman,

Platoon, andDances with Wolves.

And he was
instrumental to the rise

of many independent
production companies

like Cannon,
Hemdale and Carolco.

The '80s were a lot more fun.

Can I get your autograph? I want to get
your autograph. I didn't think you existed.

BRUCE McNALL A very entrepreneurial,
go get 'em,

play things loose and fun,
enjoy what you're doing,

that world of the '80s.

Which was more about people
and less about the numbers.

Without Frans, independent film
would have been set back decades

if not more.

For the old timers
like me that know that,

it's kind of, you know, yes, you guys
are all riding on this wave and great fun

but the history is interesting which was,
before that it just hadn't been done.

I needed your father
when he was there.

Someone who believes
absolutely in what movies can be.

He is probably, in many ways, the best-known
banker in the history of Hollywood.

'Cause most people don't
know who the bankers are.

Frans gave us the money.

Now it is time
to tell the truth.

How much
money are we talking about?

We asked for one million
and he gave us three.

What happened
with the other two?

This is probably from the '80s.

From a very young age,

I developed a huge
adoration for my father.

There was a fifty-year
age difference between us.

As a young girl,
I never understood what he did for a living

except that he always
wore a business suit.

Which impressed me.

I remember very well that there were
pictures taken on a beach in Los Angeles,

where I got a sense
of his importance.

As I grew older,
I became more and more intrigued

about what he exactly did.

By sheer coincidence in the early '70s,
I believe it was '74.

I met with Dino De Laurentiis.

Everything that I did in the film business,
I owe to Dino.

He earned his
stripes already in Italy.

He already had two Oscars.

One wasNights of Cabiria
and the other wasLa Strada.

He was interested in
getting a bank account,

a normal regular current
account in Amsterdam

because they were in the process of
setting up a foreign distribution office.

He couldn't rely anymore
on the Italian banks.

And that's perhaps
when he met Frans

and the owner of
Slavenburg bank.

And they seemed to be
open to get into that business.

I said,
"How do you finance your pictures?

"How are movies being financed?"

And he was laughing
at me and he said,

"Well, you are a banker,
aren't you?"

I said, "Yes,
well I'm trying to play that role."

He said,
"Bankers never ask that question

"because they hate
the film business,

"they don't want to get involved

"and certainly not in the
independent motion picture business."

The Citibank,
Bank of America. No way.

Of course they had corporate
accounts with the major studios,

but independent producers
were always turned away.

The studios used to have
their cluster of writers,

their cluster of directors,
their cluster of stars, under one roof.

And they all kind of
cross-collateralized their ideas,

the creativity,
and was very safe.

They want their certain tent
poles and franchise movies

or the romantic comedies
that are sure winners.

They want to love their
scripts before they make them.

Scripts aren't always perfect.

You know,
you've got to decide on something

and then try to make it
perfect and then go make them.

And that's where your
father was very important.

Because he gave independent
producers chances to make their movies.

As a commercial bank,
we could not invest in films.

But we could,
perhaps, finance films.

I see a film as a project
like we financed real estate.

We were based in Rotterdam, so obviously
shipping was a major activity of our bank.

And I said, "Why not films?"

And he said, "Well,
let's sit down

"and let's see if we
can find a structure."

It all began with Dino saying,

"Frans, I'm going to teach you
how to really do the film business

"and the foreign sales,
the discount contracts."

Frans had lunch with Dino, practically
three times a week for many months.

I remembered that my father in his
free time, he was very active in culture.

He booked stage plays

and guaranteed a
certain amount of money.

He thought,
"Hamletwould be played by a major actor or

"Midsummer Night's Dream, I will
certainly have three nights fully booked

"and so then I can guarantee
a certain amount of money."

And with that in my mind,
I said to Dino,

"Couldn't we lay off the risk
to the distributors in the world?"

There are a lot of
independent distributors

in every major country.

And we give them the script.

We tell them who are
going to be in the movie,

an idea about the cast.

And that system was
basically invented by us.

By the two of us,
Dino and myself.

And that was the
system of pre-sales.

And in his autobiography, he describes
us as the pioneers in the business.

You want to make a film, okay.

So what do you do?
Where do you start?

So what you do is,
step one is you get a script

you either write it,
or buy it or option it,

but somehow or the other you
get ownership of some script.

Step two is, you want to get somebody
to be attached to direct and star in it.

We maybe had our director attached to it,
maybe we had an actor or two.

And that was what
we call our package.

What I now do is,
I go down to the American Film Market

or to I go to Cannes and I go
meet all the foreign distributors,

and I say, "How would you like
to buy my film for your territory?"

"It's going to be wonderful." And we sell
them, and they go, "Okay, we believe in you.

"We will buy the movie today,

"and you will deliver it to us eight
months from now or a year from now,

"and let's agree on an advance
we are going to give you."

So I have a contract from the German
distributor now for a million dollars.

They haven't paid me cash,
but they have given me a binding contract.

And that contract would
be called a "pre-sale."

And that pre-sale we would take
to a banker. Who could we go to?

Oh,
Frans Afman. We would take it to Frans

and Frans would go, "Hmmm."

"They looked good. I trust the
people that are going to pay.

"So yes, I will loan you the ten
million dollars to make your film.

"But, how do I know, Sky, that you
will get the film actually completed?"

So the completion bond company
comes on and says, "Mr. Banker.

"I guarantee you, don't worry.

"I am an insurance company
with billions of dollars behind me.

"If something happens,
and an actor dies or the director quits

"or for whatever reason.

"You don't need to worry."

The bank then
loans me the money.

When it is done,
hopefully on time and on budget.

I now say to the completion guarantor,
"I did my job, you're done."

I now deliver the film to
the foreign distributors.

They pay the more than ten
million dollars back to the bank.

Hopefully I make a profit

either from the amount I've sold it
for is more than the cost of the film

or if the film works, I will get what's
called overages, which is royalties.

So, that is the essence of
how the pre-sale market works.

I can't remember what the
first one might have been.

Were you there
during Three Days of the Condor?

Oh, that's good,
yes. It was Three Days of the Condor.

And what it really was is
that the tax shelter group

set up an account
at Slavenburg's bank

and Frans helped us do it.

So it wasn't very
expensive for us.

Robert Redford
and Faye Dunaway in danger

and in love. InThree
Days of the Condor.

My bank had absolutely
no idea about film financing.

So, they said,
"Are you sure that we get our money back?"

I said, "Well, sure, sure. You can
never be sure. There is always a risk.

"But I have a good feeling. I think
the distributors, I checked them out.

"I think they really have
the intention to pay us

"once the picture is delivered."

My feeling was not so much about

whether the film would
be a great success.

Because actually, that was nice,

that was the icing on the cake.

But the purpose of the loan
was to get the money back.

He had the
intelligence to use Dino.

I mean, really use,
to Dino's full acceptance and agreement

to teach him what
he what he should do

and what he should
be careful about.

The times that
they were together

were so important
that they were together,

because they were
making things happen.

And you have this euphoria
when you are making movies.

You are creating.

And Frans felt that too,
because he was part of that process.

This business is very seductive.

So they shared that,
Frans understood that passion.

They were very close.
Believed in each other.

I think Frans might
have looked up to him.

Dino never looked down on Frans.

The big one was in 1976,
when he did King Kong with Dino.

The studios,
they paid attention to it.

This model could bring big-ticket movies,
that we don't have to finance.

So,
it was a tremendous risk management.

The studios needed product.

With King Kongthey go,
"Oh, this really works."

We'll take a distribution fee,

and Dino and Frans
Afman can take all the risk.

That was a
major film for that time.

And that was a very
expensive movie.

We completely
financed that movie.

And during production,
the costs went up from $18 to $24 million.

All and all,
that film made a bonanza.

Not that we benefited from it.

We were very happy
with an interest margin

and a closing fee,
and that was it.

So,
maybe we made three percent on the budget.

After working
with Dino for three years,

my father had mastered the ins
and outs of the movie business.

Dino then offered him a
job as his private banker

but my father
respectfully declined.

He wanted to stay
at Slavenburg's bank,

while discovering
Hollywood for himself.

Dino was disappointed
but understood his decision.

While Dino remained
his main client,

my father started to
work with other producers.

The difference between Frans
in relation with other people

working in the bank
business for movies,

he has one great quality,

he has the feeling
about the movie.

I'm not surprised if one day, tomorrow,
Mr. Frans Afman resigning from the bank

and become producer.

Because our business
is a tough business.

You must love it to do that.

Now,
wouldn't that beat all get out...

You...

Huh?

The first project
my father worked on without Dino

would turn out to
be very complicated.

Unknowingly, Slavenburg's bank
had become involved in a film project

calledSuperman.

Superman
is an interesting story.

I got a call from the
president of the bank

and he said, "You have to
come immediately to Rotterdam."

"To the head office.
We need to see you."

I thought, "My goodness, have I done something
wrong?" "No, no, no, but we need you."

I said, "I have meetings today,
I cannot cancel my meetings."

He said,
"You will have to cancel all meetings,

"it is very urgent you
come to Rotterdam."

So, I arrive in Rotterdam.

The whole board
is sitting there.

I never forget,
in the boardroom.

All faces, very long faces.

I thought, "My God,
what is going on here?"

They said, "We just discovered

"that we are
financing Superman."

A man by the name
of Alexander Salkind

was planning to produce
a Supermanpicture.

He found a bank officer

in this small village of Zutphen,
in The Netherlands.

And that officer had authority

to advance up to,
I think it was a $100,000 dollars.

When the bank examiners came to
look at Slavenburg's, they found that, uh,

Mr. Salkind had borrowed,
I believe, $32 million.

We were in shock because
we didn't know about it.

We didn't know... Small amounts,
with a subsidiary of the bank.

And, so,
they all were looking at me and said,

"How are you
going to solve that?"

I said,
"How far are we with the production?"

"Well, we are somewhere midway."

So, I went to London. The
picture was shot at Pinewood.

All the producers got together,
the Salkinds and Pierre Spengler.

And I said, "We have to go
on. There is no other solution."

Frans with his expertise in
filmmaking and all that came on board

and said, "Wait a minute. We are
not going to leave that in the subsidiary,

"we are going to take it
over with Slavenburg."

And this was the first, uh...

The first, really, let's say, official
encounter between Frans and ourselves.

They resolved a lot of
uncertainties that we had.

Very crucial was the screening.

Because I asked Pierre,
"Show me the stuff, show me the material

"that has been shot so far."

And I brought Dino
in. Dino De Laurentiis.

We saw maybe
an hour of material.

And Dino pinched me in the arm,
he said,

"It's good stuff,
Frans. It is very good stuff."

And that also was part
of my decision to move on.

Somebody
thought it was a great idea

if Superman would
restore the White House

that was badly damaged
by the bad guys.

Good afternoon, Mr. President.

Sorry I've been away so long.

I won't let you down again.

You needed another 250,
I remember. Another quarter of a million.

And I said, "If this helps the film,
we have to do it."

So, Superman Iwas released,
was a huge success.

At that time, immediately I started
working on finishing Superman II.

A guy named Marlon Brando,
an actor of some note.

A guy named Dick Donner,
a director of some note

had sued Alex Salkind

for not receiving the moneys
they should have received.

On Superman Iand Superman II.

He turned out to
make two movies,

when he was supposed
to be making one.

They were pretty slippery,
these guys.

And what they had done,
and they didn't inform the cast or anybody.

They shot a lot of footage.

And they had enough footage from
this Superman to do Superman II.

So my goal was to get in and make
sure the plaintiffs got their money.

Knowing it was gonna
be very difficult to get much

out of Alex and his
companies and people.

Your father said very sternly,

"I will make sure that every
penny that is lent to you

"will go into the film

"and not into anybody's pocket."

Eventually Superman II came out,

it was again a big success.

And there we finally were able
to sit down and make the account

and say, "Okay, now we are
able to pay all the participations.

"Start repaying the
bank." And it all worked out.

After solving all
the problems withSuperman,

the board of the bank
encouraged my father

to expand the film
business at Slavenburg's.

While building his clientele, a lot of
independent producers came to Rotterdam

to seek financing
for their movies.

And I remember when I came in,
everybody was running around.

And I said, "What happened?"
And there was some sort of...

Of foreclosure or something
that was taking place.

Nobody was there.

I had this interview and I
think Frans wasn't there.

There was some sort of problem

and I said,
"What is going on over here?"

What happened was that
the Dutch tax authority had raided the bank

because they suspected
it of money laundering.

All the senior management were
taken into custody, including my father.

Even though he came out clean, he had
to stay home during further investigations.

My mother told me that I
was conceived during a very difficult time.

It was quite a big thing for me to learn,
while making this documentary.

I am the youngest in the family

and I have three older brothers.

I did not quite understand why
my mother made that decision,

if you already
have three children.

But I guess she hoped for a little
girl to soften my father's feelings.

This helped me understand
my adoration for him.

When in 1983,
Credit Lyonnais acquired Slavenburg's bank.

The French management learned about my
father's activities in the film industry.

They liked the business and
saw a lot of potential for growth.

So, they asked my father to
completely focus on film financing.

With their support,
he put together his own team

and created an
entertainment division.

It required a level of knowledge

of the distribution community and how
it worked and where the movies worked.

That was just simply not there.

Frans had that knowledge
and basically created a business

that became, you know, huge.

Billions of dollars by the '90s.

Action!

Action!

The same kind
of excitement that my father felt

by working with
Dino De Laurentiis,

he found in Israeli filmmakers
Yoram Globus and Menahem Golan.

Their enthusiasm and dedication

were so stimulating to my father

that it became one of his
most productive partnerships.

A producer...

- Must get everything that the movie needs.
- Yes.

No way out.

- You have learned to speak Dutch?
- Oh, a few words.

And then we got from you,
I think a line

of four or five million dollars

to do the small action movies.

I tried for a low budget that
we did low-budget movies

to make a film look big.

I was always scared of you,
because you are the big man.

Big Frans Afman.

Yoram had to speak
to you. I was quiet.

But I was making the movies,
and...

He was quiet?

What is going on here?

Frans,
we will go into it that he was quiet.

What about this stupid fire?

You're an officer today.

You're an officer today. Next
month you will not be an officer.

Don't make me angry. I will shoot
when I want. You can arrest me!

Menahem...

Did the Ninja.

He invented the Ninja movies.

If you take on a Ninja,
no matter how many you are

be prepared for
the consequences.

Enter the Ninja from Cannon.

He was in the
Philippines and he...

And then it was Credit
Lyonnais already.

And then the Philippines
wanted to kill him, the people,

for the $50,000
that he owed them.

I owed, yes.

"What should we do?" I called
Frans in the middle of the night

and Frans tells me,

"Come to Rotterdam."
That is how it was.

We sat in Rotterdam, I think,
for one day. We plan.

And instead of 50 we
got a line of $25 million.

And that's how we started
to do The Wicked Lady,

That Championship Season,
Sahara.

The first upgrade
movies ofCannon.

First movies with stars,
real stars.

I always wanted to learn. I wanna
learn more, and more and more.

Because I have always said to
my boss in the bank, Georges Vigon,

the moment that I have
to defend a credit facility.

And I tell you, "Georges, you should
trust me, because I know the business...

"You have a free mandate
to fire me on the spot."

Frans got a very special
permission from Credit Lyonnais

to join the Cannon group board
of directors as independent board.

Your suggestion,
your ideas, were always...

I accepted them. You
are a very smart man.

There are a couple
of Israeli's here

who would probably
steal their thunder

and sell it back
to them at a profit.

Golan and Globus may sound
like a couple of Middle-East cities...

For many years,
they were the king of independents.

They were so prominent
during the Cannes film festival.

Their parties, their pictures.
They made wonderful pictures.

You had all these media
promoting your film essentially for free.

I thought Cannon
made some good films.

Barflystill holds up today.

I can't stand people.

I hate them.

Oh yeah?

You hate them?

No.

But I seem to feel better
when they're not around.

We had the feeling that,

when you bring a star to
Cannes you capture the buyers.

I'll do the movie because they
couldn't pay me a lot of money.

I said, "Okay,
but I want a Rolls Royce."

He says, "Okay,
I will give you a Rolls Royce."

And we bought him a Rolls Royce!

What don't you
do for these stars!

And he came to Cannes,
and it was a big success.

So I thought he
gave it to me for real.

At the end of the movie
some guys came and said,

"We're taking the Rolls."

Legendary story.

I enjoyed having coffee
with Frans or a drink.

Much more than with Menahem.

I liked, you know,
very classy, elegant guy.

Menahem always
had like gefilte fish

and, uh,
all kinds of things all over his shirt.

I could tell what Menahem had
for breakfast, lunch and dinner

on his red shirt with
his white suspenders.

But this guy was a class act.

Somewhere in the '80 they came to
see me and said, "Frans, all these movies

"but what about
the movie theaters?"

I said, "Yeah,
it seems to be a problem."

Because video
became so important,

that there was less attendance
in the movie theaters.

And many so called "experts" decided that
this was the end of the movie theaters.

I helped them with the acquisition
of the Gaumont theater in Italy.

I helped them with
the acquisition of...

A couple of theater chains
in the United Kingdom.

And eventually I was able to
assist them with the acquisition

of the famous Tuschinski
theater chain here in Holland.

As well as the City theaters.

Everybody said,
"The unions in The Netherlands are terrible

"and you will go
bankrupt in six months."

And we said,
"In 12 months all the theaters

"in the big cities
will be ours."

And that's what we did.

You fixed it.

And they ask us...

First of all we said that we
believed in the future of cinemas.

As long as there is use,
cinemas will exist.

Then they asked us,
"What are you doing to the cinema?"

Do you remember our answer?

Just clean the toilets,
first of all.

Once the toilets are clean,
it begins.

Then you change the carpets
and you change the chairs.

Did you ever sit in Tuschinski
One in a chair lately?

Impossible to sit.

You know, it's like this,
you can't put your knees.

We are changing those
chairs because I understand

Tuschinski is an
historical place,

but it doesn't mean
you cannot sit on a chair.

From the director
ofChinatown andTess: Roman Polanski.

Polanski's epic adventure.

ForPirates my
father had high expectations

because of the great reputation
of director Roman Polanski.

The movie was shot
on location in Tunisia

and starred Walter Matthau.

It was Roman
Polanski's pet project.

Tarak Ben Ammar, the producer
could not control him apparently.

So, he was not moving.

And Tarak said,
"There is very little I can do,

"but maybe you can do something

"because you have the right
to remove him from the project

"and replace him
by another director."

We had done that
before with Superman.

We had replaced Richard
Donner with Richard Lester.

I went to Tunisia to
meet with Polanski

and apparently,
my chairman also joined me.

We had a lot of money at stake.

Then finally, he completed
the picture, but it was a terrible picture.

I remember the film
was shown at the

Directors' Guild in Los Angeles

for a selected group of people.

They all loved Polanski,
because of Chinatown,

and Rosemary's Baby,
what have you.

A man of great reputation.

And of course Roman Polanski was
allowed to enter into the United States.

Only to serve time there because of
his affair with that young girl in 1977.

So there was a video message from
Paris that he was greeting everybody.

All his admirers et cetera.

And during the film, I felt already
the atmosphere, they were uneasy.

And then when the film ended,

there was dead silence.

People couldn't believe that Polanski
had made such a terrible movie.

To understand the
importance of my father's accomplishments.

I wanted to personally meet
the people he worked with.

I went to interview
many of his colleagues,

like John Miller,
the banker at JP Morgan Chase

who finances many of the
blockbuster movies for the major studios.

He looked at this business...

In a way that would be very
difficult today. Because, I think he...

He trusted somebody,
he got to know them.

He made a lot of decisions,
I think, based on

his instincts about who
he was doing business with.

I was making a film and
the film ran out of money.

It was called Never
Too Young To Die.

And we were just about to start shooting,
and we were shooting and I was in trouble.

So I remember,
"Oh, Frans Alfman."

I gotta call Frans.

So, I called him up

and he said, "Ah,
the prodigal son comes back."

And I explained
to him the situation.

He says,
"Give me your bank account number."

I said, "Really?" He said, "Yes,
I trust you. How much money do you need?"

And I needed half a
million dollars at that time.

He says, "I'm going to wire
transfer you that money."

And he says,
"We are going to do the paper work after."

He says, "Because I am
going to take you at your word."

Everybody who got
a major credit facility

had to appear in
front of my board.

We had lunch in Rotterdam
and dinner if necessary et cetera.

And we treated him well but
they had to come to Rotterdam.

And one of the producers once said
in an interview for television, he said,

"Yeah, Rotterdam was a coming
and going of famous producers

"and they all had
to sit on the couch

"until they were
asked to come in.

"And if you got the handshake,
then it was okay."

But that's not how we worked,
of course not.

As you know,
Frans is a... He loves wine.

He is a great authority on wine.

So we were discussing
the next pictures

and Frans spoke to the
two board members and said,

"Right, let's make a bet."

He bet that they did not know,

the original five Grand
Cru wines from France.

And they were two Frenchmen,
so it was a matter of honor.

Over dinner,

Frans won the bet and they agreed
to finance the next two pictures.

Of course,
I took it with a pinch of salt.

I went to the
office the next day,

they presented to me the note,

signed by the two board members,

that those pictures
would be financed.

Those two next pictures
were Hoosiersand Platoon.

He took a far more creative
approach to the business.

He was interested in the content,
he was interested in...

And was willing
to take the risk.

'Cause he could see...

Read the script,
understand who the director was,

who the producer was,
who was starring in the movies.

And he was willing to
take a far higher level of risk

than an American
bank would've taken.

And he did it well.

Domestic banks were less comfortable
with those foreign distributors.

They had more
regulatory requirements.

They were not as flexible
as the European banks,

and specifically
Credit Lyonnais.

And that I think,
is what allowed Frans to dominate,

in those days, because the
American banks couldn't compete.

The first picture that we did
with Frans was The Terminator.

With James Cameron and
Arnold Schwarzenegger.

And Frans was very instrumental
in bringing that together.

Because he would guarantee
Arnold Schwarzenegger's fee.

Which, I think at that time was
relatively small by today's standards.

About a million dollars.

But it had to be put forward

and a guarantee before
the picture was financed.

Frans Afman and Credit Lyonnais

have had a financial hand
in a wide variety of pictures.

Among them,
Hemdale Film smash hitThe Terminator.

Hemdale's president, John Daly.

I think his biggest
contribution was withThe Terminator.

None of that would have been
possible had Frans not supported us.

Extremely loyal to people
that do business with him.

And in fact,
he is almost a father figure.

Frans was very savvy.

And he understood what it meant

and he was looking
beyond just a single picture.

He was looking to help, um...

The principles of Hemdale build a company,
build a library

because the library became very,
very successful and it became valuable.

Why do you think
the independent film industry

was dominated by companies
that were run by foreigners

like Cannon,
Hemdale and Carolco?

Well I think this is a melting pot,
you know. America is a melting pot.

And Hollywood is the center of the film
industry. Or Los Angeles is the center.

So it's natural that everybody from
abroad gravitates towards America

because the actors were here,
the directors were here.

So, naturally we were all here.

They did not work well
within a studio bureaucracy.

I mean, visually,
when you look at these people,

if you look at Mario and Andy,

they don't look like people
you would see in a studio.

Our philosophy was that we want
to give the independent market

the same kind of movies that
the major studios were releasing.

And in fact, it turned out that they
we were beating them with our movies.

So, our goal was really not to
compete with Cannon or Hemdale

but was to compete
with the major studios.

Hollywood blames us
for destroying the prices,

even though that isn't true because
they are the ones that destroyed it.

The studios made
less money upfront

but they give each
star a big backend.

A percentage of the gross.

So consequently,
if a picture was really successful,

Carolco was better off.

If the picture was
not a success,

then of course,
Carolco was worse off.

I remember in particular that there
was one transaction at Carolco where

they committed to a
three million dollar script

literally on the
back of a napkin.

It was the Wild West,

it was truly
independent filmmaking.

So,
you definitely saw with certain members

of the independent world,

it's like, you know,
"Enjoy it now,

"because it is not
going to last forever."

So, they were much more liquid,

how they entertained.

And they were having fun.

We had the party of parties.

It had an unbelievable
collection of talent,

all working with one
independent company.

All right? Financed
by Credit Lyonnais.

We had Schwarzenegger,
we had Stallone,

we had Michael Douglas,
we had Sharon Stone.

You know,
Jim Cameron and Oliver Stone.

Come on, I want you to get this.

The party was great.

What was on the menu?

I don't remember the food. I
really don't remember the food.

We drank, we had a great band,
the Gipsy Kings played.

I don't think we will
ever have a case,

where an independent company

can have the number
one worldwide grossers

back to back,
like we did in those days.

Hello, Tony. How are you?

Can we talk with you
just about the Cannes film festival.

Is it important for you to be
here and meet with your clients?

Always, always. Yes.

Already for 16, 17 years,
I come out every year

basically to learn.

Because this is the
place where distributors,

exhibitors,
producers meet each other

and do deals.

And we like to know

in what financial
condition everybody is.

So, we talk to all the foreign
distributors in the world.

Unlike most bankers,

he knew all of the
distributors around the world.

Frans could get on
the phones himself

and call Toho-Towa or GAGA,

or whatever it was and
help solve problems.

He was very pro-active.

If there was a problem

that was taking place on a loan,

and there's always problems,
with everything, he was there.

He was by its side,
he was part of the solution going on.

He was involved, literally,
in everybody's business.

In a good way.

We got to make that picture,

specifically because
of your father.

At a certain point the bank,

through the French lenders,
had lent too much money to Hemdale.

And Frans and I
came up with this deal

where we bought
the library rights

to those Hemdale titles
for 40 million dollars.

And we had to put back for ten.

When, as expected,

Hemdale defaulted
on paying back the ten,

I went to Frans and said,

we have to levy
on the sequel rights.

We made Terminator
for six and a half million.

Terminator 2was made
for close to 120 million.

I've always wanted
to see the frontier.

You want to see the frontier?

Yes, sir.

Before it's gone.

Ain't nothing here, Lieutenant.

What about Indians?

We approached all
the American studios.

From Paramount to Universal to Fox,
you name them.

And everybody had basically
four reasons to decline.

I was very honest
about what it would be.

I knew it would be long.

That didn't mean I thought it would
be boring, but I knew it would be long.

And I knew that there
would be subtitles.

The American
studios in those days,

well they still are,
they are very nervous of subtitles.

They don't want to
release subtitled movies.

I knew that those
subtitles were important.

That two people could not talk.

They didn't want to
back a first time director.

Everybody has been
a first time director

once in his life. Okay?

"No, no,
we don't like him as a director."

Okay.

Reason number three
not to do the movie,

it was too long. Three
hours and 20 minutes.

The reason that's a problem is

you lose a screening every day.

So you're losing money,

just because of the
length of the film.

And the number four reason,

it was about cowboys and Indians,
basically.

And so, this very American movie

would not be financed
by anybody here.

We have no American deal.

Let's first start with
the foreign contract.

Let's see if there is interest.

And we were just lucky,

because that same summer

The Untouchableshad come out.

The Untouchables
was a great movie

with Bob de Niro
and Kevin Costner.

And Kevin Costner was
brilliant in that movie.

So everybody who hadn't
heard of Kevin Costner

knew thatThe Untouchables
was a great movie.

Guy East said,
"This is unbelievable

"We get offers from everywhere

"from Japan, from the Far East

"from Europe,
from Latin America.

"I think we can cover
60 percent of the budget

"out of foreign
pre-sales." Unbelievable.

We went to the markets,
we made the sales

then the cash started flowing.

We went to the studio and said,
"Listen,

"Foreign people are already so
interested in... Foreign distributors,

"about this project
Dances with Wolves,

"That I think...

"I am surprised that not one
American Studio has picked it up."

Even though it was an
independent production

and the money was being
provided by the banks,

you needed the
studio's distribution arm,

their prints and
advertising money,

you needed them behind you.

Nine million dollars was raised

by the European community and
I will forever be thankful for that.

Once Hollywood realized

I was going to go
make this movie,

interest kind of started
to grow a little bit.

But I went to a studio that I
had been familiar with, Orion.

And they gave me
four million dollars.

It took Europe to
move the dial for me.

And action!

Scotty!

I used to go to South Dakota

and watch them where
they were shooting.

Kevin used to rent the
local cinema every night

and everybody from the set
could go and watch the dailies.

Which was incredibly unusual.

And then when you saw the
stampedes and things like that.

And Kevin did all
the stunts himself.

He went out on a horseback
and he rode in the middle

of hundreds and
hundreds of buffalo.

I mean,
he could easily have been killed.

There was a lot of people who were
laughing behind my back about it.

Lucky for me,
I was out there making it

and I was unaware that there was
this kind of skepticism, this cynicism,

with me directing a movie.

The movie was a massive success.

We collected an enormous many,
many millions of dollars in overages.

It was nominated for I believe,

12 nominations and
it won nine Oscars

including Best
Director and Best Film.

You know I think,
when you are in the movies sometimes

the hair on your
arm can stand up.

Or on the back of your neck.
Sometimes you can't stop a smile.

Those are the
emotions that I believe in

when the curtain opens up

and the lights go out
and the movie starts.

So, Frans changed our lives
by helping us make the movie

and the movie changed our
lives because it was so successful.

It changed all our lives.

Although he traveled a lot

while I was growing up,

I never missed my father.

He was always there
when it mattered.

And furthermore,
I didn't know any better.

At what age
do you become self-aware?

For me,
it was our time in Malibu,

when I was three,
four and five years old.

Those are my first memories

and it made a huge
impression on me.

During the summers,
we joined my father in Los Angeles.

We would arrive at LAX Airport.

Two stretch limousines
would be waiting for us.

One for our family and
another for our luggage.

We were chauffeured to the
luxurious Malibu beach house

where we enjoyed a
private tennis court,

a swimming pool and a jacuzzi.

On weekdays,
we were picked up by a yellow school bus

to go to a summer
camp in Topanga Canyon,

where we could ride horses,

play sports and do
other fun activities.

Our playmates were the
kids of Dustin Hoffman.

Bruce Willis and Demi
Moore were our neighbors.

There was always a lot going on.

Stars would walk in
and out of the house.

It was a special
and magical time

a little girl can only dream of.

Platoonwas an enormous success.

And that one really knocked
the industry on its ass.

Because here we are
with a $5.8 million movie

shooting in the
Philippines with no actors,

no stars that no one knew of.

And we pulled it off.

Oliver had served in
Vietnam during the war,

so he knew what
he was talking about.

And it was a very
serious project.

But not everybody
was interested.

Especially not in America.

You needed,
apart from the foreign distributors,

you really needed a deal
with an American studio.

It is all about your script.

If your script is good,
you are going to get it done.

First I read 50
pages in my office

and I called Oliver.

I said, "I'm doing your movie."

He says, "Not so fast."

"Go home and read the script,
and then call me tomorrow."

My wife and I were
in bed together.

She was reading a
magazine. I started reading.

I was nailed to the story.

When I was finished,
I was sobbing.

I had tears in my eyes.

We were trying to get
the most difficult shots

in the most difficult
manner possible.

In the rain, special effects,
no big budgets, nothing.

It was just a struggle
from day to day.

It was the first real look

of how people were getting limbs blown off,
dying.

And the stress of
what war was like.

And I think that
hit a nerve here.

They had never
seen anything like this.

They were used to the
John Wayne type of movies,

where it was all about America
and America being triumphant.

It wasn't real.

This was real because Oliver had
been in Vietnam under two tours of duty.

The moment we cut the movie,
we showed it.

It took off. There was a fire to it,
I can't tell you.

That is really about
populist timing.

In the sense that we hit the
right moment in time. That button.

So,
we released it in six theaters,

two in LA,
two in New York and two in Toronto.

On opening weekend,
which was in December of 1986,

we would see
veterans standing in line

around the blocks
in New York and LA,

trying to get in.

And the letters,
the outpour and the media,

which is often the
most cynical off all,

was like puppy dogs in our laps,

looking for stories.

There was a line
that ran for two blocks.

And I see all these people and I
had no idea that it was for our movie.

And as I drove up

we realized that it
was all for Platoon.

The nominees for
Best Picture are...

In the year 1986,

the films Credit
Lyonnais had financed

received 27 nominations
and won eight of them.

This was much more any
studio achieved that year.

And the winner is Platoon.

Thank you very much,
I am deeply grateful.

My profound thanks to
John Daly and Derek Gibson.

For sharing my passion
when all others passed.

And Frans Afman
of Credit Lyonnais,

for having the money in the
Philippines jungle when I really needed it.

It was every banker's
dream after that,

that the winner
of the Best Picture

of the academy award
would mention their bank.

It is the only time I've ever heard a
producer thank its bank for anything

It was a slight exaggeration,

because I never went to the set.

I never went to the Philippines.

We just transferred the money...

The money from Rotterdam
to a local bank in Manila.

He had that Dutch confidence.
They're always like... Very convincing.

And as a banker,
I thought he was a godsend.

I was just a kid from Ohio.

You know? And I didn't really
have any experience with European...

Style or personality.

And Frans is an example of what I
call an old school, you know, style.

He had his emotions,
he had things that would upset him.

But you know,
he was always so careful and polite.

I always wondered when he
would sleep with your mother

if he would take the suit off?

I used to kid him about it.

And he would laugh, you know,
give me a nervous laugh.

I remember going to
the Cannes Film Festival

and walking down the
Croisette when Frans was there.

He was more famous than
most of the movie stars.

"Hello,
Frans. How are you Frans?"

You know, people that were
obviously sucking up to him.

He was a target.

He was the best game in town.

Nice to see that you are alive,
that you are here.

And kicking.

Some of the movie stars
Frans was very friendly with,

because he was the banker
for the people that used him.

Like Sly Stallone for example.

He loved it. He loved
the experiences of...

Interacting with everybody.

With the big movie stars
to just business guys.

And I think everybody
respected him and they liked him.

They especially liked him when he
used to walk around the Hotel du Cap

with a briefcase full of cash.

Especially Golan-Globus,
when they got money from him

they said, "By the way, you know,
we want our money in cash."

A lot of the companies
were colorful characters.

And his great quote
that he said was,

"If you are going to
swim in the ocean,

"you better swim
with the sharks."

And he just... He knew
how to deal with them

and use their wisdom
of the film industry

to his advantage, to make
sure that his film loans got repaid.

How many times he
turned to me and said,

"I wouldn't lend this guy ten cents,
Buckley.

"But we will drink
his champagne."

I said, "Okay."

With all the
success my father had

it was rumored that some
clients paid him money on the side.

Besides this,
to let him keep working during the summer

he was provided with a
beach house for our family.

Later in the industry,

it was said that he was bribed.

Is taking a summer
beach house a bribe?

Yes, technically it is.

You know, it is funny,

the word "Bribery" is a tough word to use,
I would say.

But all bankers, at that time,

and I think some
to this day today too,

will probably have perks.

All of my bankers

would come to the King games,
I'd buy them dinners.

Various things.

We didn't view it as a
bribery. They were friends.

Frans's take was that,

this is the way things
are done in Hollywood.

It is a way for me to
keep an eye on the money.

Whether it fit the rules
of Credit Lyonnais?

Frans said it did.

I cannot accept any
gift from any client.

And I cannot give
any gift to any client.

But I'm invited all the time to go
on people's yachts and to do things.

If I went, I would report it

and my institution
would allow me to do that,

then I wouldn't
consider it a bribe.

It wasn't hidden or secret or running
around and doing clandestine things.

Or Frans saying,

"If you don't give me this house

"I'll... The loan's
going to get called."

Bruce McNall had promised
me some financial reports.

And he did arrive at a
party and he handed...

He handed a brown envelope to me

in front of 150 people,
that were standing there.

And guess what
was in the envelope?

His financial reports.

And later on they invented that is
was $100,000 or $200,000 in cash.

And you think that
I would be stupid

if I ever would be bribed

that I would accept the bribe in
front of 150 people at a reception?

You think I'm that stupid?

The productive partnership

between Cannon and my
father was put to the test

when Yoram and Menahem wanted
to expand and diversify Cannon

more than my father
was willing to finance.

When they failed to
listen to his arguments

my father decided
to stop financing them

and resigned from their board.

Not long afterwards,

they were close to bankruptcy

and in desperate need of money.

They made a tremendous
amount of movies

out of their studios on Sunset.

They saw a chance to get out

to cash out. And they
cashed out to Parretti.

And God love them for it.

During the Cannes Film Festival,

I was asked by Yoram
Globus and Menahem Golan

to come to their suite.

And they wanted me to
meet a certain Mr. Parretti.

And from the first moment on,

I understood that this man

was not going to
be a friend of mine.

Because he shouted at me
when I came into the room

and he was pointing his finger at me,
"You, Afman..."

"How much money
you make in the bank?"

And I said,
"That is none of your business."

"I triple it. I triple it." I said,
"What do you mean?"

He said "Yeah,
you come inside my company."

I said,
"But then I would have to leave the bank."

"No, it's not necessary,
you stay in the bank

"and at the same time,
you work for me as well."

I said, "Okay, nonsense."

Parretti basically tries to bribe
Frans right there in the meeting.

All right?

And of course, Frans, very politely,
you know, "Okay, I understand that."

He was talking about 400 million

he was going to put
in the Cannon group.

I said, "Fine,
you can pay off some of the loans

"that we had made
to the Cannon group."

He said, "No,
but you have to loan it to me."

I went outside and said,
"Yoram, you come with me."

I said, "Look, it's very simple.

"I dislike this man immensely.

"So,
I am not going to work with him.

"So,
you have to go to another bank.

"I don't want to be involved."

And,
so we went back into the room

and then I told him, "Mr. Parretti,
there is nothing I can do for you."

And then he became very,
very angry and said,

"Well,
I'm going to talk to your boss,

"Georges Vigon,
he's in Rotterdam,

"and I'm going to fly out with my
private plane. And you will lose your job."

I was representing
Cannon at the time.

And this crazy,
little Italian showed up.

And said he wanted
to buy Cannon.

I asked him some questions,

he knew nothing
about the industry

he knew nothing about financing.

It was just hilarious
that this guy showed up.

And so, I literally got up
from the meeting and I said,

"I have long meetings
and I have short meetings.

"This is going to
be a short meeting.

"'Cause you don't know
what you are doing." So, I left.

I found out that, indeed,
my chairman, whom I admired

because of his intelligence

and his support for my business,

had entered into a
relationship with Mr. Parretti.

My second in command said to me,

"Frans,
we have something to report to you."

I said, "Okay,
what is going on?"

He said,
"We are already 400 million out

"on the Parretti and
Fiorini company."

I said, "I don't know,

"why am I not supposed to
know this? I am responsible."

He said, "Well, the chairman of
the bank took the responsibility

"and we had to
execute the orders."

And I immediately went straight
to the office of Vigon and said,

"What is going on? I mean,
I know nothing about this."

He said, "Yeah,
it's my responsibility."

I said, "Yeah,
but it's my people you're using!"

Fiorini and Parretti had been bribing
all the way to the top of Credit Lyonnais

from Haberer on down.

Including the socialist party kingpins,
we later learned.

And I know that, you know,
this was something that,

you know,
would drive your father crazy.

Because every bit of
integrity that he cared about,

every sense of people
that he cared about.

And he recommended,
told the bank not to do it.

Parretti,
with Credit Lyonnais's help

ended up buying Cannon.

So, A, I had to deal with
him until then Parretti fired me

as counsel for Cannon,

because I had walked
out of the meeting with him.

And then I was hired
by Credit Lyonnais

to oversee the
subsequent investment,

which was Cannon buying MGM.

Buying Cannon was
not enough for Giancarlo Parretti.

On the contrary,

it was just the beginning.

And he had his eyes set
on something much bigger.

His next target was
one of the oldest

and largest studios
in Hollywood.

Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer,
better known as MGM.

Here comes Parretti,

boulders into town,
with money bags.

Well, Dino's eyes go big,
you know,

"You know what,
this guy wants to buy MGM?

"He wants to buy
something? He wants to buy?"

"You know, let me show him
around. This guy looks serious."

We spent a lot of time together.

We traveled together,
we vacationed together.

He actually is the
godfather to Carolina.

He was the best
man at our wedding.

So, I mean,
immediately Dino was seduced

and there was this partnership.

Dino came to him and said, "Frans,
you got to stop being against Parretti."

This is bad for
you and the bank.

And he said, "I am never going to stop
being against Parretti. I know what he is."

It is a business that
is so pressurized

and so capital-driven

that whoever helped you ten
years ago might be your friend.

But your best friend is the
one that's helping you today.

I saw with great sadness,

a lot of my account managers
were all of a sudden working

exclusively on the Parretti
and the Fiorini accounts.

And to the detriment of our
other relationships that we had

with companies like Hemdale

and Carolco and you name them,
our other major clients.

And I saw the whole
structure that we had erected

for the entertainment business,

that was going to fall apart.

And that was the day that
I resigned from the bank.

Voluntarily,
totally voluntarily.

And Vigon said, "Well,
you have to stay until the first of July.

"And then you will become
a consultant to the board."

They didn't want to lose me.

I say that in a
little arrogant way,

but it was the absolute truth.

Frans bowed out,
but he nominally stayed involved

because Cannon
was his major client,

so they had a lot of
existing films going on.

I see this all the time
in industries where

a banker will stay as a
consultant for a few years

to work out troubled loans,

because he has the personal
relationships with those people

at the highest level of the
companies that he's dealing with.

Maybe I shouldn't have done it,

maybe I shouldn't have
stayed on as a consultant.

Everybody was leaving. My whole
team was going to other banks

or people took early retirement,

or people started
to work for clients.

I had 12 account managers,

and only one
stayed with the bank

with the entertainment division.

So, Credit Lyonnais ended up

with no knowledge about the
entertainment business anymore.

Because all the
knowledge had gone.

And then some French people
came and they took it over.

It is one of the major
disappointments in my life

as a banker for
the film industry

which I always considered
to be a labor of love.

And I have done it with passion

and I never had anything to do

with crooks and thugs,
et cetera,

I walked away from them.

The attention that
Parretti brought in

was just totally out of whack.

And it folded, I think, what,
within two or three years.

I mean,
he burned through the money,

he basically hopped on a plane

and got the hell out of Dodge.

And kind of,
left a wreckage behind him.

Jack Lang,
who was the culture minister,

at request of the
president of the republic,

called Haberer and said, "You give
Fiorini and Parretti whatever they want."

All right? That's
why it happened.

And then they tried to dump
it all off on the Dutch branch,

try to make it seem as if, "Oh,
it's some film stuff by Frans Afman."

They tried to blame him for it.

And... But, you know,
I remembered the way he'd...

I don't know how I would
have handled something

that unjust and that
terrible and outrageous.

But he handled it
with the same aplomb,

sense of humor and character

that he did everything else.

Just took it and...

You know,
he and I would always joke,

"We're gonna have to
write the book one day."

Which we never did, you know?

Because we both knew
what really happened.

This is Hollywood and
memories are short.

So,
for those of us who were around then,

it can still be a hot button.

Today,
people will just look at you puzzled,

"That was a mess, wasn't it?"

And you just say, "Yeah,
that was a mess."

And you just move on.

After my
father left the bank in 1991,

there was a lack of finance
for a while in Hollywood.

The independent producers
had to find other sources of capital.

They went out and
raised money publicly,

they over-leveraged themselves

they started to get into
the exhibition business,

they just went way beyond their
core competency in many cases.

Hemdale had
financed back to back

Academy Award
winning Best Pictures.

For Platoon,
which costs 5.8 million

and did 136 million
at the US box office.

And The Last Emperor,

which they paid eight million
for domestic rights alone

and it did 42 million
at the US box office.

And guess what?

The company lost money on both.

Their accounting
methods were abhorrent.

And you talk about most of them,

not all of them,

but most of them had

a luxurious lifestyle
for their owner.

The debt that I had was
growing and growing and growing.

It ended for me, when in 1994,

I received a subpoena

basically requesting documents
and information, from the FBI.

It is not a good thing you
want to get by the way.

It's not a good thing to have.

Immediately,
all my entities were put to bankruptcy,

which included
Gladden Entertainment.

I went from, you know,

two helicopters, three jets

mansions all over the place

to living in a small apartment.

The companies that went
out of business eventually,

didn't have your
father behind them.

I think that if your father
would have continued,

he would have found ways
to help all these companies.

I think what happens,
businesses go like this

and in the tough times,
you need good bankers

and people to understand and help
you get through those time periods.

He was gone

and it was very simple.

Pay the money or
you are out of business.

And it doesn't
quite work like that,

sometimes you can't come
up with the money on this date.

Another great
one is John Miller.

John has supported
many companies

who could have gone
under and he didn't...

He found ways to help them and,

you know, find solutions,
which your father always did.

Banks have become more corporate,
you know,

since Wall Street days.

They seem to roll over
bigger amounts of money.

Like, they make studio loans,

unfortunately,
the studios get stronger

but you don't have the
Frans Afmans out there,

who are backing
individual film makers.

Your father was unafraid.

He had good sense. He
had to make good choices.

But he did. And some of the
men and women around him,

I'm sure, thought long and hard,

they bet on a person, who'd never,
in my case, ever made a movie.

He built some of the greatest

producer/production /sales
companies in the business.

He helped create

that whole independent business,
which still runs till today.

No one took his place.

No one had the...

The goods. They
didn't know how to do it.

He was old fashioned,

old fashioned in the sense that,

whatever I can do to help you,
I will.

And I will support you

and I will be there in
really difficult times.

Frans actually
changed my life entirely,

from being an employee to
enabling me to be an owner.

Which I have been ever since,
for the last 25 years.

He was totally changed my life.

Yes, he was, you know,
more than influential.

He literally changed my life.

What happened to you?

Oh, I went to,
I got many offers from banks.

I became an
independent consultant.

I worked for a number of banks.

European, Japanese banks,
that I advised.

And they thought that I had
still a very good reputation.

For me, it was sort of,
post-graduate

in the film business.

He accepted

the cycles of business.

"I had my time."

"The world has changed."

You know? And he
was educated enough

that he was too close to
the Credit Lyonnais scandal

to not be affected by it.

I think it is like

a Greek hero.

You peak and then you go down.

He peaked.

I mean,
it's better to have peaked

than never to
have peaked at all.

From time to time

I realize that I have
to clean up things

and that I don't
leave a total mess

for my kids,
they have to sort it out, so...

I have to throw
away a lot of things.

The cleaning up time has to start very,
very soon,

I realize that.

Forming bonds,
you know? Forming friendships.

And one of the best friendships
I ever stumbled into was...

I am so sorry about
him passing away.

A little emotional.
I loved your father.