Double Play: James Benning and Richard Linklater (2013) - full transcript
In 1985, filmmaker Richard Linklater began a film screening society in Austin, Texas, that aimed to show classic art-house and experimental films to a budding community of cinephiles and filmmakers. The Austin Film Society raised enough money to fly in their first out-of-town invitee, visionary experimental filmmaker James Benning. Accepting the invitation, Benning met Linklater and immediately the two began to develop a personal and intellectual bond, which has lasted through the present. After the cult success of "Slacker" (1991), Linklater has gone on to make award-winning big budget narrative films including "School of Rock" (2003), "Before Midnight" (2013) and "Boyhood" (2014). Benning, meanwhile, has stayed close to his modest roots and is mainly an unknown figure in mainstream film culture. Combining filmed conversations and archival material, "Double Play" explores the connections between the work and lives of these two American visionaries.
bald-headed Indian...
I think often that the most
interesting view out a train is
the back window.
You go to the very back car
'cause you can see a full
180 view out the back.
It's something kind of poetic as
you leave.
You can't really see out the
front of the train.
That's not really possible,
'cause it's the engines and
conductors and all that.
But the back is yours, and
that's interesting, 'cause it's
what's behind you now.
All of life is just memory.
The present, if you have a
timeline, and you look at the
present, it's a point.
And everything on this side of
it is the future, and that
side's the past.
And a point does not have
dimension.
So, the present doesn't have any
time.
I was thinking about why I make
films, and I thought, "well, it"
started when I was very young."
Mommy, mommy, mommy!
I grew up in Milwaukee in the
'50s, and it was a time when
parents didn't worry about their
kids being outside, and you
could just go, and as long as
you didn't get into trouble, you
could keep going.
And it was always about
adventure and about having an
experience that would kind of
make my neighborhood get bigger.
And I didn't think of that as a
kid, but now I think it's what
I've been doing my whole life.
I have a lot of sympathy for
people in their 20s, who are
sort of wanting to do something
different or discover what
they're most passionate about or
live a life of purpose.
Cinema was the thing that saved
me.
I just would spend all my time
reading about film or watching
movies.
It was probably that necessary
period where you have to sort of
separate yourself from
everything you knew before, or
as you sort of define yourself
as an adult.
I often joke, when people ask
if I went to film school... I
says, "oh, I went to the"
Stanley Kubrick film school,"
which means you just buy a
camera, and you learn how to use
it, and you start making movies.
The uncertainties of the
'60s...
Find that one line.
You remember that line
perfectly.
Okay.
You reread it ten times
'cause it was just like it
nailed it.
It's hard to say what's going
on.
Okay.
And watch his hair.
It's always this side.
Whatever's in the camera,
sometimes, it... you feel it
falling in your face, just very
subtly kind of...
I'll try.
No. No!
Of course not.
Us?
Okay.
How could you even suggest
that?
Let's go!
Hey, morning.
Morning, man.
How goes it?
Good, good.
Let me dump this off.
It's over here, huh?
Yeah, around the corner.
I love the Polish poster.
You can't really tell.
Like, "what movie's that?"
What would be that?
I really want to go see.
Takes a while.
You put all the names together.
Ah!
It's a wonderful opportunity,
and we're so pleased if you'd
come and join us for the
weekend and see films and do
some films.
So, it's my great pleasure to
introduce Richard Linklater, the
artistic director of the
Austin film society, who will
be introducing...
Well, thanks, guys, for
coming out.
I just want to encourage you to
see all the films this weekend.
It's just a great opportunity to
see some work of one of the
world's great visual artists.
You know, 25 years ago, in 1988,
the film society had our first.
Grant money ever from the city
and the state, and it had always
been an ambition to be able to
bring in filmmakers.
So, the very first filmmaker I
wanted to bring in, whose work
intrigued me the most, was
James Benning.
I'm always amazed at your
movies.
I love just the experience of
watching them.
You realize we're all watching
the exact same images, but I'm
sure we're all having very
different experiences in our
that's so rare in the modern
world, where you really get
10 minutes to just study nature.
And I think that's more of a
challenge all the time, 'cause
if you really think about it,
how many of us have sat for
10 minutes and just studied the
way light moves, the ripple of a
wave, all the things in the
natural world?
Your films remind me how
beautiful...
So, I mean, I'm happy to
present this film, because it
confronts you with a reality
that's actually always there,
but we're getting further and
further away from.
After I made these films in the
'90s that were dealing with
text and image and with lots of
information, I became very
interested in early, very early
cinema, before narrative was
introduced in these kind of
observational films that I
thought were really amazing, and
I thought this is where, really,
film had a great strength and
that by the introduction of
narrative and especially
narrative language, it took us
away from what I was seeing as a
really strong point for film.
In the last 10 or 12 years, I've
been investigating that, kind of
going back to the beginning of
cinema.
I knew the first shot was gonna
be the sunrise, and I knew the
last shot was gonna be these
relentless waves coming into
somewhat suggest infinity, that
these lakes... we're killing
these lakes, but in the end,
they're gonna outlast us,
because we'll be shook off the
earth like fleas.
And the lakes will then clean
themselves up.
In a sense, that's the feeling I
got from visiting all these
places.
That's the kind of larger thing
I think I learned from this
film.
So, the offices for the
film society are back in there
now, huh?
Yeah, yeah, we've kind of...
This is my triple-wide, which is
technically owned by the kind
of... I'm working off the rent.
I bought it, but everything out
here's owned by the city, so I
kind of rent it from the studio.
And this is your production
offices, and then...
This is the stage.
That used to be an airplane
that was an old office.
So, we were able to get all
these buildings and use them for
the industry, 'cause, you know,
back then, if you were shooting
a bigger production, you'd park
your truck somewhere.
The art department would be in
south Austin.
It was all dispersed.
So, now you can just shoot a
bigger film.
You can have your construction
crew in the hangar over there,
your office there, build some
sets there.
This would have been the
airport that I came in on
25 years ago to meet you for the
first time.
Back then, I was at the gate.
You could go to the gate, and
you'd come off the plane.
You had the film in one hand,
16-millimeter box, with a
handle, and, like, a grocery
bag, not even full, like, wound
down.
A toothbrush and a pair of
underwear.
You were that.
I said, "do you have any other"
like, "no."
And you were here for a few
yeah, yeah.
I was really impressed.
I was like, "okay, I really like"
this guy."
I still travel...
I know!
I think that's what you had...
And I think you were wearing
that same thing, too.
Probably.
Often, I will edit on note
cards.
I'll make 10 note cards for
each, and then I will put some
vector on it to show me which
way the clouds might be moving.
And I might put another symbol
on it, to how quick it's moving
or how colorful it is.
So, I can look at these 10 cards
with maybe 5 different symbols
on them.
And it's like taking 10 cards
that are clubs, hearts, spades,
and diamonds and arranging them
so they're not all together.
Does that make sense?
I make symbols that represent
movement, color, direction,
sound, value, and then I put
them in order so that they all
the clubs aren't together, all
the diamonds aren't together.
And then I do a cut that way, in
this case on a flatbed, and then
I look it and say, "oh, that's"
pretty good, but that one isn't
"in the right place," and I might
move it somewhere else.
It seems like a simple job to
order 13 shots or 10 shots, but
13 factorial is somewhere in the
millions.
So, I'm sure I don't have the
best order, 'cause there's so
many possibilities.
We were... I was finishing
editing "slacker."
You were in town.
It was that time we were
"sweet smell of success" or one
of the movies.
We were in the room, and we were
into the last, you know,
probably the last ten minutes of
the movie.
And you made a joke, like,
someone enters the room, and you
just said kind of casually,
"and then we just go off with
"those two people," and the
movie goes right at the climax
of the movie, and I kind of got
I was like, "oh, man."
I just did a whole movie about
like, we just go off with those
I just thought that was pretty
kind of for a second, I was sort
of stunned.
I was like, "oh, no."
Is that a bad idea?"
Actually surprised I've never
yeah, as much as you've been
in Austin, the infamous
Mount Bonnell.
And you filmed "slacker"...
The end of it was done in, what
would that have been...
'89, summer of '89.
We were shooting.
I remember being at outdoor
parties and tying a camera to
the end of a fishing pole, and,
like, casting it out.
And it'd get stuck in a tree.
And the camera would be
so, I had all this old footage,
and I actually used some of
that, 'cause we had the footage.
When we threw the cameras off
mount Bonnell, we went down and
we processed that footage, but
it was kind of blurry, you know.
We probably had four cameras
going and then had that super-8
and I had met this girl that
summer who actually had a
JK optical printer.
Uh-huh.
So, it took it from super-8,
the reversal...
And then you blew it up.
Yeah, blew it up to
16 negative.
And then kind of on a Bolex.
That was really wonderful.
And then ended up blowing that
up to 35, eventually.
So, that film had covered a lot
of formats.
We even had Pixelvision.
We had video.
Hey, Kelly, nice shoes.
Hey, what is that?
Oh, it's my Pixelvision
it's for a project that I'm
putting together.
Hey, um, I'll tell you what.
Why don't want one of you take
it and shoot whatever you want?
Pass it around, and we'll see
what we come up with later on,
okay?
But I want my camera back,
all right?
I had many students over the
last 25 years that were actually
inspired to become filmmakers
from seeing a film that talked
to them directly.
It was like...
It feels like a film they
could make, in a way.
That's what inspired me.
You see a film, and you go,
"ahh."
I talk with my students today
about I'm not interested in them
making another good film because
there's a lot of good films, but
I'm interested in students
finding a new language, a new
way of working, pushing to make
the film culture grow, in a
sense.
Yeah.
I mean, I don't know if you
set out to do that, but I think
"slacker" was a beginning to
open up a new language, a new...
Yeah, I think in the
narrative realm.
I was very conscious of a new
way to tell a story or to push
the storytelling boundaries,
'cause, like you, I've always
felt kind of oppressed by the
three-acts story structure of
the narrative history of cinema.
A well-told story has its place,
but, you know, I'm always trying
to yeah, push that a little bit.
Over lunch we can argue about
yeah, yeah.
Good.
Come on. Backhand.
Get in shape.
Topspin.
Oh, that's off.
Oh.
Way off.
Yeah, anyone can shoot when...
Okay, let's do it.
Could do a 3-pointer.
You got to really get warm to
get the...
I slowly... you have to kind of
warm up and get to them.
I'm working my way back.
I have to work way, way
back... 30 years or so.
Yeah, yeah.
Back to when they didn't even
have a 3-pointer.
You were at u.T. And played,
too, right?
No, I played at Sam Houston.
Okay.
Yeah, I went to school on a
scholarship.
At that point, that was such a
focus of my life, you know?
Yeah.
I was just gonna go play
college ball wherever I felt I
could play soon est.
I thought I'd play as a freshman
somewhere.
Well, I always brag I had a
college scholarship, too, but
tuition was only $90.
Yeah.
I think it was pretty cheap when
I was there, too.
I think now it actually means
something.
But I quit after two years,
and I think you quit because you
had some heart problems at one
yeah, it's like it quit me.
Yeah, I played... I really only
played one year.
It was on the Eve of my
sophomore year.
I remember I was playing
left field, batting third in the
lineup, playing as good as I
ever played.
And then...
Just had this heart-rhythm
thing.
Couldn't run.
It was almost like a
career-ending injury, you know?
When did you admit to
yourself you weren't gonna make
the big leagues?
I think it was about when I was
I don't think I still have.
I still kind of think...
[laughing 1 you still have a
I had a dream, like, about...
It was a few years ago.
It was almost like a bad movie.
You get one at bat in the
major leagues or something.
I don't know.
Yeah, delusion... I don't know.
I think it's important in sports
and in arts, in a way.
You have to think you're... no
matter how good you are, you
have to think you're a little
better than you are.
And how many films have you
made that deal with baseball?
I know you made a film with
coach or about the coach.
I did a documentary.
In "dazed and confused," my
young character... there's a
brief baseball scene, where he's
pitching, like, little league.
Strike three!
And I find now, like,
directing a movie with a big
crew and a lot of cast and a lot
of people, I'm a lot like my
coaches.
Like a good coach, treats every
player a little... kind of
gives them what they need.
Different players need
different levels of coddling,
instruction, reassurance, tough
love.
A good coach intuits that.
That way, if it hops either
way...
See? Use your legs.
All right?
Run this way.
Catch the ball like that.
Oh!
Ahmad Abdul Rahim.
Here.
Yo, bro, what up?
Nothing much.
Just ready to play some
baseball.
25, huh? Ken Griffey, right?
No.
Satchel Paige?
No.
No. Willie Mays?
No. It's mark McGwire.
Mark McGwire?
But he's a white.
Yes, he's from Claremont.
He's my favorite player.
Huh.
Well, the Indianapolis clowns
was in the negro
American league, and it was back
in the days, just in case people
don't remember, it was back in
the days what negro ballplayers,
black ballplayers, called the
major leagues.
We considered it major leagues.
In fact, I've always said that
if you could play with the
Indianapolis clowns or any of
those teams in the
negro American league that you
were essentially playing in the
big leagues.
We played as many as three games
I remember playing a
doubleheader in Washington, then
playing a night game in
Baltimore.
So, that's three games.
And we would travel.
We would stay in a hotel only
once a week, and that would be
on a Saturday.
The rest of the time we'd be
traveling on a bus.
We would get $2-a-day meal
money.
And some days, I can remember
getting a dollar worth of
baloney sausage and...
Come on! Throw it by him!
Throw it by him!
He can't hit.
Coming to you, James.
I wanted to make that
Willie Mays grab.
What a snag, man. He did it.
Oh!
We approach films in much
different ways, yet we have a
lot of things in common.
I never really liked films.
I was never a big fan of films.
I was never a cinephile.
And I know you became a
filmmaker by really becoming
interested in films like the
French new wave, who looked at
many films and was very inspired
by filmmaking before them.
And I think you still carry a
lot of that with you but maybe
not with the same zest as to
begin with.
I'm curious about that, anyway.
Well, you kind of came at it
from... you're sort of in, like,
just visual art in general,
yeah, I think so.
I mean, I made films because I
saw a Maya Deren film on TV, and
then, eight years later, I
bought a camera.
So, you can see that I had an
engagement, but it didn't really
move me much.
It took me eight years, but it
must have been pretty strong if
I was still thinking about it
eight years later.
But in that 8-year interim,
were you studying, like, when
you would go to a gallery or see
painting, did you think
something was forming in your
head about the real-time nature
of film and how you might use it
someday?
I came to all this very late
I didn't buy a camera until I
was in my mid-20s or more, and I
really didn't feel...
Mid-20s late in life?
Well, for kids today, of
course.
Oh, well, yeah, they start at
but I really didn't know what
art was.
I thought art was paint and
making a nice sailboat with a
watercolor.
And I still admire that.
But I didn't know that there is
an art practice out there that
has a philosophy in it.
It has dialogue that's
continually going on, and one
can engage in that.
I didn't figure that out until
I was in graduate school, in
film, and I was 30 years old.
I think you're blessed by
that, though.
In a way, because I was very
involved politically, doing
political organizing and things
like that that kept me from
looking at things that you saw
and brought you into filmmaking.
But I was a little bit later,
too, certainly by modern
standards.
When you grow up in Huntsville,
Texas, it doesn't cross your
mind, "oh, I can make a film."
I thought at best I wanted to be
a novelist.
And then, somewhere in college,
that shifted to potentially
playwright.
I remember I was playing college
baseball, and then, you know,
that was over, and I was working
offshore.
And I think there was a certain
void in my life, and I just
found myself wandering into
movie theaters, going to four
films a day.
I just got really fascinated in
the history of film, the
storytelling.
I was just kind of falling in
love with cinema, you know?
Then, I realized you could rent
a movie for 100 bucks or
something, and it was like, "oh",
well, let's get people to help
"us pay for this."
And my roommates at the time,
Lee Daniel, Brecht Andersch, and
other people around town who
were kind of the film freaks.
We just started showing films at
various venues.
And then, I think that was...
Again, it was kind of coming out
of a void.
Cassavetes talks about film as a
parallel universe for people who
don't like the real world.
Mm-hmm.
Who don't know how to dress
or be normal or be official.
And I think I agree.
The film world was just this
other world that encompassed the
world, but I preferred it.
A couple friends of mine and I,
we started a film society we
still run here in Austin.
The Austin film society.
Yeah, that's been going nine
there's a lot of independent
filmmakers in town.
Yeah, we just had a screening
today, in fact, I just came
I'm as proud of the
film society as anything.
Doing "Oshima" and Godard
retrospectives and stuff like
my whole life was just cinema.
Well, Rick, you seem to have
survived your Hollywood
experience.
"Dazed and confused" did well,
got good reviews.
Circulated around, became a cult
film.
And evidently you're able to
make another film,
"before sunrise."
What's the concept of it?
It has elements that
"slacker" and "dazed" don't
I think it's a little bit more
of a story, and it's a
male/female story, too.
So, it's kind of a romance, my
own version of a romance, I
guess.
I think people who make
movies daydream about movies.
That's the way I think, you
know?
I think of things in
storytelling fashion.
That's why I like acting, too.
Fill the void, or I think it
attracts a certain kind of
personality that doesn't want a
life in the real world and that
movies kind of become your life
and become your history and
become your thoughts and the way
you see the world.
I didn't think I wanted to be a
real member of the world.
Movies were a universe that I
could count on.
Wouldn't let me down.
I could go back and see
"touch of evil" or "the crowd,"
"docks of New York,"
"citizen Kane" or something.
Your latest film, we were
talking about at dinner last
night with the crew.
They were arguing if there were
12 shots in it or 10 shots.
But nevertheless, it was about
how few shots are in this
narrative film, which
immediately my ears lit up
because I thought, "oh, good",
we're stripping ourselves of
this kind of manipulative
narrative language and letting
"duration play out meaning."
It has maybe 12 scenes or
less, but within a few of those,
there are... but there are some
that are just really, really
long shots.
But I would go one more step.
I don't think it's not
manipulative.
I think it's a... It's a huge
construct.
There's a crew.
So, everything's
manipulation.
Yeah, I think it's all a
manipulation.
I think it might respect their
intelligence, perhaps, a little
more than a cross-cutting action
thing, but, at the same time, I
just think it's all a construct.
So, it's just disguised better,
perhaps, but I don't have any
delusions that it's real.
Uh-huh.
Too much effort goes into it.
But you are very aware that
the language that you're using
is...
Definitely not Hollywood
traditional.
Yeah.
And yet it's not so obscure
that... with the nontraditional
formal qualities, I do have,
parallel to that, traditional
story qualities, even though
they're not wildly entertaining.
But what a couple goes through
in a particular day or
particular life, you know?
I would say all your films have
this double thing of
nontraditional story... formal
qualities, obviously, and then,
also, nontraditional stories.
Like, what you're trying to
communicate doesn't fit into a
narrative format.
Well, I know as I get older,
I have kind of... my life is
pretty much being consumed now
by my work itself.
I've also decided that I don't
want to be around people most of
the time.
So, I have a place in the
mountains, and I hide.
I think because of the way I
feel really good by myself, I'm
making films now that are very
observational.
In 2001, I bought some property
in the Sierra Nevada mountains
that had a nice house on it.
And I started to remodel the
house.
And then, when I was finished, I
thought, "well, now I'm done."
"What do I do up here?" Because I
like to work.
And so I started to do paintings
just to kind of calm down and
copy paintings of outsider
artists.
And after about six months of
doing that, I decided I wanted
to do some construction again,
and I began to build a copy of.
Thoreau's cabin.
It wasn't an exact replica of
his cabin because nobody really
knows what his cabin looked
like.
It's fairly well-described in
"Walden."
Then, I kept on painting, and,
all the sudden, it occurred to
me that I was maybe making an
art project here.
But it didn't have any edge to
and I thought back to my film in
the mid-'80s that I made,
"American dreams," which used
baseball cards and Henry Aaron.
And it used speeches from 1954
to 1976 and also popular songs
from those years.
And at that point, I introduced
the diary of Arthur Bremer, who
was the person from Milwaukee,
where I grew up, that went on to
shoot George Wallace.
And so, I thought, "well, that's"
the same thing that my cabin's
project needs.
It needs another cabin that will
"be a counterpoint."
So, I decided to construct the
cabin of Ted Kaczynski, the
"unabomber," the one that was
built in Montana, as a companion
to the Thoreau cabin.
Here, I'm going to confess
to, or to be more accurate, brag
about, some of the misdeeds I've
committed in the last few
years.
There was a small, functioning
mine... I'll call it mine "x"
for future reference... a few
miles from my cabin, on the
south side of the Ridge that
runs east from here.
They had a large diesel engine
mounted on the back of an old
truck, apparently for running a
large drill for boring holes in
rock.
I put a small quantity of sugar
in the fuel tank of the diesel
engine and also in the gas tank
of the truck.
Sugar in the gas is supposed to
severely damage the cylinders
and act as an abrasive.
So, I think we also want to
try to push cinema in different
ways, and you're doing a very
radical project now of making a
film over a ten-year period,
which I think is absolutely
extraordinary, which I want to
see parts of and perhaps
tomorrow I'm gonna get to see
some of that.
But that's an amazing... again,
and here, now, it's a narrative
that happens across ten years,
but it also is about how people
actually age in that time span.
So, it's real aging.
Yes, not cinema.
You change in ten years, in
respect to that.
So, all of that is in the film,
if you like it or not.
It's about how you change, how
they change, and I really think
it's...
Or as Ethan Hawke... I've
shown him it over the years,
like, the assembly of where we
are, and he made the
observation.
It's like, "oh, the kids"...
'cause it's really a brother and
sister.
He goes, over these 12 years,
"they're growing up."
And he looks at himself.
"And we're aging."
I've been...
I've been thinking about this.
Well, I always kind of wanted to
write a book that all took place
within the space of a pop song.
You know, like three or four
minutes long, the whole thing.
The story, the idea, is that
there's this guy, right?
And he's totally depressed.
His great dream was to be a
lover, an adventurer, riding
motorcycles through
south America.
And instead he's sitting at a
marble table, eating lobster,
and he's got a good job and a
beautiful wife, right?
You know, everything that he
but it doesn't matter, 'cause
what he wants is to fight for
meaning.
Happiness isn't in the doing,
right?
Not in the getting what you
want.
So, he's sitting there, and just
that second, his little
5-year-old daughter hops up on
the table, and he knows that she
should get down, 'cause she
could get hurt.
But she's dancing to this pop
song in a summer dress.
And he looks down, and, all the
sudden, he's 16.
And his high school sweetheart
is dropping him off at home, and
they just lost their virginity,
and she loves him.
And the same song is playing on
the car radio.
And she climbs up and starts
dancing on the roof of the car.
And now, now he's worried about
and she's beautiful, with a...A
facial expression just like his
daughter's.
In fact, you know, maybe that's
why he even likes her.
You see, he knows he's not
remembering this dance.
He's there.
He's there in both moments
simultaneously.
And just like for an instant
, all his
life is just folding in on
itself, and it's obvious to him
that time is a lie.
Uh... That it's all happening
all the time, and inside every
moment is another moment,
all... You know, happening
simultaneously.
And, anyway, that's... that's
kind of the idea... Anyway.
The 18 years that's elapsed
in the three "before" movies,
that was kind of accidental.
It just sort of happened that
we liked working together, and
we brought them back.
It's not that conscious of a
process, where I think your
films are all about time.
You're consciously sculpting
these sections of time within
this kind of a bleak narrative
structures you're creating.
Yeah, in '77, I made
"one-way boogie woogie," and
then I always thought, "oh, I"
want to do this film again,"
because I made the film because
it was in this industrial
valley, and it was gonna become
gentrified, and it didn't become
gentrified right away.
But, finally, 27 years later, it
was beginning to change, and I
thought, "okay, I can redo it"
and then I decided, because I
had a number of people on the
first film, I'd get the same
people if they were still alive
to act in it.
And I had not thought about how
this would really talk about
aging, because everybody's
27 years older now.
That's a pretty big jump in
for everybody.
And in one place, there's a
young woman carrying a baby, and
now she's walking through with
her 27-year-old child next to
her, and she's an older woman.
So, and then it really made me
think about the whole experience
of making the first film and
then the experience of making
the second film, which was so
different because I was older.
So, not only... I didn't realize
I wouldn't be making only a film
about the neighborhood changing,
but it would be about my friends
aging and myself being
different.
That's the one relationship
we all have that endures to the
end is our own relation with our
past selves, you know, and the
stories we create to connect
ourselves to who we were.
I've always been fascinated with
that.
Just talking about narrative and
storytelling and the
artificiality or the contrivance
of it.
But is there something innate in
like, we all either... we're
kind of creating these stories
in our heads just about
ourselves and our lives and
trying to make them make sense
somehow, even though it might
not.
Well, like I was saying at my
screening the other day about
I'm really interested in this
idea of time itself, in that
there's a future and there's a
past, and we're always at that
point that's present but that
has no dimension.
So, nothing can be understood in
something that has no dimension.
So, everything that we
understand is only through
memory, that my sentence, you
cannot understand.
You only remember it.
You can't move on the timeline.
You can't go into the future.
You can only remember the past,
but it's this machine that you
either reinforce prejudice with,
or you learn.
But it's fun.
Like, everybody who loves art
can tell you that moment where
they were confronted by
something that they didn't
understand, that literally blew
their mind, that they just
totally reoriented, recalibrated
their mind of what a certain
medium or what life could be,
what anything could be.
You know, so many categories.
Yeah.
I'll tell you my moment when
that happened.
I was in graduate school, in
mathematics, and, like I said, I
knew nothing about art until
later in life.
So, I knew nothing about art at
this time.
And I was going to an evening
math class, and a bunch of
people were going into the
student union in Milwaukee, and
somehow there was such an
energy, I thought, "oh, I'm not"
gonna go to my class.
I'm gonna go to see what this
and a guy came out, and he read
an abridged thing of
James Joyce, "finnegans wake,"
where he took James Joyce and
wrote down this, and then he
found the first words that
started with a "j" but not an
"a," and then he could add some
words.
So, he would pick just words out
of the whole book, and then he
read it, and it took him an hour
and a half to read this.
And "finnegans wake," the
language is so difficult,
anyway, but when it's chopped up
and abstracted, it becomes just
music.
And by the end, I was totally
engrossed in it.
The audience clapped.
He set down his book, and he put
this big John cage smile on his
face and looked at the audience.
And I had no idea who John cage
was, you know.
Yeah.
"Oh, this is so marvelous."
I heard language as music, and I
saw somebody perform something
that was so unusual that I
couldn't understand how anybody
even could begin to think of
doing that.
And when I was done watching it,
I was walking back to my car.
I thought, "that's what I want"
I want to do something that
"makes me smile like that."
It was absolutely incredible...
Incredible experience.
There's always these fortuitous
events, where a dragonfly flies
right in front of your camera,
and it appears this big, and you
either like that, or you don't.
And then you keep those kinds of
things in.
But yes, I thought of each shot
as some kind of an event, either
event in the way light would
change or the way the depth cue
would change by a car moving
through it, or the way the sound
would disappear as a car would
go deep into the frame, and your
eye can't stop looking at it,
and they still see it.
These kind of games happen.
So, it's kind of a playful
movie.
Where's the penitentiary?
That's in central valley in
California.
They have 11 penitentiaries.
Seven of them are privatized.
They didn't come and stop you
from parking out there?
I shoot very quickly.
I was worried because I shot the
prison at Corcoran for another
film, and I ended up with a gun
at my head and being accused of
a double felony of criminal
trespassing and criminal
surveillance.
And I had known that two months
earlier that Corcoran guards
beat the shit out of a bunch of
bad boys that were brought to
that prison to be treated that
way.
And somehow it was all captured
on some kind of video machine.
And then, all those guards had
just been arrested.
So, I showed up a month later
with my camera, and they, of
course, thought I was gonna do
something about the prison and
how ugly it was.
And I just wanted to show it
because it's a maximum-security
prison in the valley, and
there's many of them, and it's
more lucrative to grow criminals
now than to grow cotton.
Technology has allowed me to
become completely autonomous in
my work, that I don't need labs
anymore, and I can do... once I
buy my equipment, and I know it
doesn't last as long as a Bolex
lasted, but it might last
seven or eight years.
I can work almost for free for
the next seven or eight years.
I just need the cost of a little
gasoline and a sandwich, and
then all the rest I can do
myself.
So, in one sense, the technology
has made me completely
autonomous.
And then, in another sense, I
think it's completely
suffocating and keeps you from
really the maybe more important
things in life that are closer
to life itself, like, growing
your own food and building your
house and caring for things.
And now it's... I have a
Facebook.
Come be my friend if you like.
It's a funny business.
I want to tell you about a
dream I once had.
I know when someone says that,
that's usually you're in for a
very boring next few minutes,
and you might be.
I got to tell you about this
dream I had last night.
Oh, yeah? What's that?
Do you ever have those dreams
that are just completely real?
Okay, there I am, and I'm
getting it on...
with this perfect female
uh-huh.
But...
What? What? What?
Come on, a perfect female body.
It's not a bad start.
But the head of
Abraham Lincoln.
I was just traveling around,
staring out the windows of buses
and trains, reading.
I mean, how many dreams do you
have where you read in a dream?
I read this essay by
Philip k. Dick.
What, you read it in your
dream?
Man, there was this book I
just read on the bu...
What are you reading?
Oh, yeah.
How about you?
Um...
Oh.
Hmm.
Man, it was bizarre.
It was, like, the premise for
this whole book was that every
thought you have creates its own
reality.
Another example would be like
back there at the bus station.
As I got off the bus, the
thought crossed my mind, just
for a second, about not taking a
cab at all.
I mean, at this very second, I'm
back at the bus station, just
hanging out, probably thumbing
through a paper, probably going
up to a pay phone.
Say this beautiful woman just
comes up to me, just starts
talking to me, you know?
She ends up offering me a ride.
We're hitting it off.
Go play a little pinball.
Merde!
Well, um...
We haven't talked about this
yet, but are you dating anyone?
If we were meeting for the
first time today on a train,
would you find me attractive?
Of course.
No, but, really, right now,
as I am, would you start talking
would you ask me to get off the
train with you?
Well, I mean, you're asking a
theoretical question.
I mean, what would my life
situation be?
I mean, technically, wouldn't I
be cheating on you?
Okay, why can't you just say
I did. I said, "of course."
No, no, no, I wanted you to
say something romantic.
Say I have a dream some
night, that I'm with some
strange woman I've never met, or
I'm living at some place I've
never seen before.
See, that's just a momentary
glimpse into this other reality
that was all created back there
at the bus station, you know?
And then, I could have a dream
from that reality into this one,
that, like, this is my dream
from that reality.
Of course, that's kind of like
that dream I just had on the
bus, the whole cycle type of
thing.
Man, shit, I should have stayed
at the bus station.
Good morning.
Hey.
Good morning.
How are you?
Good.
So...
I'm excited.
You're excited?
We've talked about this
project on and off for ten
years.
So...
Ten or eleven.
And your daughter has a part
in this?
Yeah.
It was a tough thing casting.
I got such a long-term thing.
And she was excited to be in
the film...
Initially, and as the years
went by, she was like, "hey, can"
you... can my character, like,
"die?"
And I'm like, "no, sorry."
Go off to college.
And every year... yeah.
Every year... she's a painter,
visual artist.
She doesn't like acting.
She's the kind of kid, like, I
think most teenage girls... you
take a picture, they get your
phone and erase it immediately.
So self-conscious.
But she's actually very
effective in the movie.
It's working with a lot of
nonactors.
And it's weird to be working
with Patricia Arquette and
Ethan Hawke as the parents...
Consummate professionals.
And then, on another level, a
lot of the kids, their friends,
will be people we just sort of
pick up and try to meld into the
whole project.
This narrative structure came
about... we were talking about
problem solving the other day.
The problem I had was I wanted
to do a film about childhood,
but I couldn't really... I
didn't think I had anything big
to say about any one moment of
childhood.
I had feelings about it, but...
And I was actually sitting down.
I was thinking I was gonna write
a novel, something I never did.
But I aspired to many, many
years ago.
And it was that idea about what
place in childhood do you drop
in?
This idea popped in my head.
It's like, "well, why couldn't"
you just film a little bit every
"year and touch on these things?"
But that was kind of the big
idea.
And just kind of put these
episodes, these years, together
and have it flow as one.
And that would make a much
bigger statement about time and
maturity and how we change, how
we stay the same.
You know, those are the bigger
themes I think I was reaching
I just couldn't find the
narrative format for that in
could we look at how you... I
don't know if you have good
examples of it yet, but how you
get from one year to the next,
what the articulation is?
Some are real subtle.
Some are less subtle than
others.
I think the biggest one... year
one, I think I was, if anything,
too blunt about it.
I got more subtle, I think.
This is year one to two.
Yeah, this was what I was
describing.
New apartment.
They've moved in, or they've
just arrived, tired.
Well, what do you think?
I like it.
Oh, can I see my room?
Yeah, let's see your rooms.
Bus will be here in ten
minutes.
Yeah, that works.
So, we follow him out.
I didn't realize, when you
described this, how interesting
those ellips... missing time
would be.
Okay, here's years two to
three.
He's just met a professor.
He was home from school.
Went with his mom to class.
She's getting her degree, and
he's walking away.
You can get near the end of
this.
She's...
Thanks.
So, do you think...
So, he kind of realizes his
mom's sort of dating this guy,
or there's something else going
on.
♪ ...said to the sand man,
♪ "wake up" ♪
♪ one, two, three, four,
five... ♪
And then, there he is, on the
trampoline.
Changed pretty abruptly.
Samantha's got braces, his older
sister.
And there's these other two kids
around.
And we come back to realize the
parents have just come back from
their honeymoon.
So, they're in a different
family situation.
I know, right?
Look at those.
Ooh, look at those.
There's a 10-year payoff here
somewhere.
So, I'm kind of getting
scenes from boyhood I actually
remember.
Like, here he is, like, a bird
has died.
He buried it, and he's dug it
back up just to see what it
looks like.
You know, that kind of...
Over the ten years, is this
all shot on film?
Mm-hmm. 35 neg.
Really, the goal was to have a
very uniform look to everything
about it, which was, given the
limitations of each year's shoot
and our budget and everything,
but I did want... I figured,
looking back, like, "okay",
twelve years from now, I think
film will still be here.
At least it'll be available,
I know there will be cameras.
There will probably be one lab
and it looks like we're getting
to the finish line in a year
where it really is sort of at
the end for film.
Yeah, that's interesting.
I don't feel a need to stock
if you would have started on
digital... digital changed so
we'd be on our fifth
different look.
Yeah, exactly.
And I didn't want it to feel
like that.
I didn't want that to be the
thing that demarcated the years.
You two have been working
together for many years, right?
I heard about Rick making a
film with universal, and I wrote
him a letter.
Uh-huh.
Just wrote him a longhand
letter and said, "I'm new to"
town, but I have experience in
the editing room, and I'd really
"like to meet you."
And I just mailed it to the
address of your production
office, and they called about
three weeks later and...
'cause I was very skeptical.
I had always edited everything,
and the idea of working with an
editor really scared me.
It's like, "oh, is that where"
you lose control of your film?
"Is that where..."
You hear these horror stories.
I was very paranoid at that
moment just working with a
studio in general.
And I think it came down to one
of my producers out there...
"yeah, a buddy of mine, he cut"
the 'police academy' movies.
I think he'd be good to cut
I was like, "aah!"
The older I get, the less.
Patience I have to be in an
editing room all day.
I think that first film, I was
like right over your shoulder,
just like with the thing, like,
"don't screw up my movie."
Then, I quickly realized Sandra
had actually a lot to offer.
Mm-hmm.
You probably weren't here yet,
when the film society was just
beginning.
Those were wonderful times.
I was staying at
d. Montgomery's house.
She gave me a house to stay in,
and Rick drove me to her house.
And we're dreaming, and we stop
at a stop sign, and there's a
bump we hear.
And there was a guy that had
been drunk and crawled in the
backseat and was sleeping.
And he fell and woke up.
And Rick's like this wasn't
abnormal at all.
He said, "what are you doing?"
He said, "I was just sleeping"
Rick said, "well, go back to"
I'll take you back after I drop
"him off."
And I thought, "welcome to"
Austin."
Yeah.
Yeah, you would fit in just
fine, just fine in Austin.
But I liked that you didn't
lose a beat on that, like, "no
big deal."
And how did you meet d.?
I had seen her around.
She was friends with
Teresa Taylor, who's the drummer
for the butthole surfers, and
she would be at parties.
And I asked her actually to be
in my first film.
I think of d. Every day, and I
still have dreams sometimes
that we're sitting there
talking, and she'll have
these...
That's how vibrant she was.
Yeah, yeah.
And she'll be telling me about a
project she's working on.
"And then I'm gonna do"... you
know, something kind of really
conceptual, and I'll be really
into it.
You're making me cry.
And then I kind of get lucid,
and I'm like, "oh, that sounds"
great, d.
You know you're not alive
"anymore, right?"
Then, I'll have to inform her,
and she's like... that kind of
kills the...
"I am, too!"
Yeah, she's like, "I am, in"
your mind, at least."
But it is a cool idea, but I'm
kind of like, "oh, yeah, damn."
This isn't real."
So, yeah.
She's been gone 16, 15 1/2 years
now, so...
Long time.
And then, I could pick you up
and take you to our house for...
Okay.
For dinner.
That would be great.
Then, we'll go up to the big
"m."
You know what's that from, don't
you?
The "m"?
Yeah, we'll go up to the big
"m."
In Montana.
Yeah.
Is that in Missoula?
Missoula.
I like that trip up there in
your film, though, because it's
kind of matter-of-fact.
"What should we do?"
"Oh, let's go up to the big"
yeah, we can walk up to the
the ultimate hanging-out...
So, well, cool.
So, I'll just come get you.
I'll be waiting for you.
I'll call you.
I'll call you sometime after
4:00, I believe.
Around 4:30, cool.
Yeah.
All right. Take it easy.
Okay. See you soon.
Cut it!
[Bird squawking 1
I found the end of
"school of rock" to be extremely
radical, to put on this addition
at the end of them jamming.
We improvised that.
Yes.
I kind of like credit
sequences that keep you in the
theater, for some reason.
There is an addendum to the
and that, we had spent so much
time in the studio, recording
all the music, and they were
sort of jamming.
Jack and the kids were doing
these jams to ac/dc songs.
And I could see what fun they
were having.
It just popped in my head,
'cause we didn't really have
much of an ending.
We were sort of defying the
Hollywood... oh, the new rules
of endings that you have to
have, like, six endings to every
we really had a pretty simple
they lost, and then, they got
called out for an encore.
So, we had a half an ending,
which I'm always in... that hurt
"dazed and confused" a lot way
like, it wasn't seen that we had
an ending, and I was like,
"yeah, there isn't an ending.
Isn't that cool?"
And they're like, "no, that's"
you need a good ending."
"Well, I don't have one."
They're driving off to get
"Aerosmith tickets."