Dead Man's Line (2018) - full transcript

- I, Jimmie Carter,

do solemnly swear.

- That I will

faithfully execute.

- That I will

faithfully execute.

- The office of President

of the United States.

[screaming]

- If we were going to

go on a crusade across

the nation to try to do

away with the homosexuals.

[thumping and laughing]

- [Female Reporter]

Luis Robinson emerged

from being booked.

Yesterday a violent

hijacker, now accused of

killing two people,

seriously injuring two others

and terrorizing about

two dozen hostages.

- I didn't intend to kill him.

I just wanted to make everybody

on the bus realize

that I was serious.

- So how about making yourself

a part of that 200

year tradition?

Take stock in America with

United States savings bonds.

- [Male Reporter] David

Berkowitz indicted

for murder, also

known as Son of Sam.

His lawyer said if he

is brought to trial

he will use insanity

as a defense.

- I just can't

believe he's dead.

[crying]

It's terrible, but I

just thank God that

Elvis died here at

Graceland instead of

on the road just like any

other rock and roll singer.

- It's just a great

loss to everybody

and there's just like

an empty feeling inside.

- Citizens subjected

to violence,

vandalism, theft and discomfort.

The blackout has

threatened our safety.

We've been needlessly

subjected to a night of terror.

Here it is mid-morning

about 10:20 a.m. and looting

is still going on at this

particular supermarket.

The reason; there

are no cops here.

- [Man] Have you recently

had a close encounter?

- [Roy] I want to speak

to someone in charge!

I want to lodge a complaint.

- Close encounter with

something very unusual.

- What the hell is

going on around here?

Who the hell are you?

- [Operator] Indiana emergency.

- [Tony] Sir, this

is a dire emergency.

A real serious thing, I've

just taken a prisoner.

It's not a crank call.

I've got a 12 gauge sawed

off automatic shotgun.

- [David] There should be

a lieutenant there, too.

[line buzzing]

[tense music]

- I was in Vietnam, so I've

been in firefights before.

I wasn't nervous,

I wasn't afraid.

I just, I figured I'm

here to cover this event.

[police chattering on radios]

- [Officer] Man with a gun,

possible hostage situation.

They're on the fourth

floor, control.

We need to shut down

the elevators, 129

East Market Street.

- [Officer] Get back, gentlemen.

Get back away from the window.

- [Officer On Radio] Buck

went up to the stairs,

but he's not

answering for anyone.

Secure that front door.

[police chattering on radios]

[tense music]

- Clear the lobby.

Going right down the stairs now.

10-9, sir.

We're en route down the

stairs, he has a loaded 1042.

Everybody stay

ready, use caution.

[dramatic music]

- [Jim] They got down to

the corner and Tony's lost.

He doesn't know

where his car is.

- [Officer On Radio] He's

walking east on Market from,

east on Market from

Pennsylvania towards Delaware.

He does have a shotgun

wired to the subject's head.

- [Jim] They turned left

toward Washington Street

and right there is

a parking garage.

- [Officer On Radio]

All cars, he's south

on Pennsylvania from

Market, south on

Pennsylvania from

Market on foot.

- [Reporter] Marion County

downtown, the subject holding

the two city police

officers hostage is now

walking southbound on

Pennsylvania from Market.

- [Officer On Radio]

Suspect has entered

a parking garage

on Pennsylvania.

- Bill, we gotta cross

over for a better shot.

[police chattering on radios]

Look in the window.

Get outta here,

alright, excuse me.

[police chattering on radios]

- [Officer On Radio] We think

he's trying to take a car.

We estimate he

knew where his car,

but he refused to

give it to him.

[police chattering on radios]

- [Officer On Radio] Suspect's

coming back onto Pennsylvania.

Suspect's moving.

[police chattering on radios]

- [Jim] From the looks

of it, one movement

of his trigger finger

and Hall's head is gone.

- [Officer On Radio]

Southbound for now.

- [David] Every time we'd stop

someplace he wanted a car.

He said, till the car gets

here we'll start walking.

We went down to Washington

Street and started walking west.

[police chattering on radios]

- [Officer On Radio] We're

following the suspect

westbound on Washington

Street, control.

We're on the north side

of Washington Street.

You need to block

off Washington Street

somewhere before Rush Street.

Stand by, they've stopped.

- [David] The longer he

stood there and tried

to talk to people,

the madder he got.

Because he wasn't getting any of

the cooperation that he wanted.

- No one knew what

Kiritsis was going to do.

For all they know he was going

to shoot him right there.

[tense music]

- [Officer On Radio] They're

moving again, control.

Westbound on Washington.

- The uniformed officers

were kind of rushing ahead.

And there were several

detectives walking together,

talking about, well, gee,

what can we do about this?

- You know, the first

thing that they taught us

is you try to find out

what the problem is

and set up some type of

communications with the guy.

So I stepped forward and

started calling his name.

- I saw Mike Grable

with his arms open.

Common gesture, I'm

unarmed, I can't hurt you.

What do you want?

- He turned around

and he screamed at me.

He says, "Are you crazy?"

He says, "You want

me to kill this guy?"

- [Judd] Tony turned

around and actually

pulled Hall as well

as the shotgun.

- Then they slipped

and fell, both of them.

- [Officer On Radio] Hold

your fire, hold your fire!

[dramatic music]

- Got up and I remember

the look on his face.

He was real surprised that

that shotgun didn't go off.

- And then he reached

down into his belt

and that's the first

time I realized he had

a pistol stuck in the

front of his pants.

It started to come

out or come loose

and as he was getting

up, both of them

were getting up, he

reached for his weapon.

And I'm thinking to

myself, well, if he pulls

this gun and points at me,

I'm going to shoot him.

- Tony was close enough

to take that pistol out

and shoot a couple,

three policemen.

If Tony pulled that

pistol, if he'd have fired

I think someone would

have killed him.

They would have had to.

As I got closer I heard

Tony and he was very angry.

And he was yelling

at the policemen.

- He said he liked

police officers,

some of his best friends

are police officers.

He said, "Now, do your job."

That was sort of the dichotomy

of the way he thought.

Is he's doing this

wild, crazy act,

but yet he thought they

should be doing their jobs

to stop him from

doing what he's doing.

- [Officer On Radio]

We're passing Capitol.

- [Officer On Radio] Traffic's

blocked ahead of you.

- I knew we were in trouble.

All he wanted all the way

across town was a car.

An officer had parked

a car, long ways,

right by the path

that we were taking

with the door open

and the motor running.

And I thought,

we'll never make it

to the other side of the street.

And sure enough, when we got

to that door he said stop.

I knew it.

He told me to turn around

and he raised my sweater,

I knew what he was after,

he wanted my handcuffs.

- As we're approaching the

intersection we hear a bang.

It startled all

of us because the

first thing we

looked at was Hall.

[tires screeching]

- I hear this crash off to

the side and so I panned over.

There was just some

gawker that, poor guy,

had driven up on

this whole scene

and he was looking and ran into

the telephone pole, so

I went back to Hall.

- [Judd] Tony went over

to the car that was,

the marked police car

was running, door open.

He slid in and he pulled

Hall in behind him.

This wire around Hall's

neck was extremely tight

and I think Hall was

having trouble breathing.

[tense music]

- [Josh] Let's see

if I can get a ride.

- [Woman] Does

anybody got a car?

- [Josh] Come here,

Bill, Bill come here.

- [Woman] Does

anybody got a car?

Jack!

- Mike and I talked about

it a number of times.

It just never, ever got any

easier talking about it because,

what are you going to do?

What are you going to do?

And that's really

what the officers

said to him, some,

several officers,

I think, said, what

are you going to do?

And we didn't know what

he was going to do.

And I'm not sure Tony knew

what he was going to do.

- [Tom] Mark, you've

been following

another aspect of this

hostage situation.

What can you report

to us at this time?

- [Mark] Well, Tom,

right now the suspect

and his victim are

proceeding westbound

on Washington Street

in an Indianapolis

police car with red

lights flashing.

The car is number 2-132.

It was proceeding west on demand

from the kidnapper,

apparently, as a consequence

and part of the

hostage situation

that developed

about an hour ago.

- [Doug] We are about two

to three hundred yards away

in line of sight from a red

brick apartment building.

The victim and assailant are

on the third floor of wing C,

but it's still not

known what the man's,

the problem is, a psychiatric

problem, if that be the case.

There is very likely

to be some very serious

conversation going on within

the apartment building.

Doug O'Brien, WIBC News.

- He went inside with me and

several officers followed him.

He went into his

apartment and we went

and talked to him

for a little bit.

He says everybody get

away from this door,

don't come near this place.

He says, I got it wired.

He said this whole

building will go up.

♪ WNAP

- [Announcer] Indianapolis.

- [News Anchorman] We are back

in contact with Doug O'Brien.

And Doug you say you have

gotten a recent advisory

from Chief of Police

Eugene Gallagher.

Can you give us that situation?

- [Doug] That's correct,

Gallagher tells us

that the apartment

apparently is wired somehow

to be set off by nitroglycerin.

And they're advising

everybody to stay away

from the east side

of this building

because if the

nitro is, in fact,

there, and if, in

fact, it does go,

it's going to blow

out the east side

of this three story

apartment building.

There are officers

trying to negotiate with

the gunman and there is

a S.W.A.T. team right

outside the building

waiting for any eventuality.

- I had a position where

I was straight across

from the next building

that I could look at

to the west that was

Tony Kiritsis's window.

Myself being a sniper,

I am setting up

something to put my gun

on, to put my rifle on

and wait for any word to

do whatever we need to do.

- [News Anchorman] Mark

Watkins just got through

talking with police

chief Eugene Gallagher

and here is his report.

- [Mark] Chief

Gallagher indicated

that police had

considered trying to shoot

the man downtown as

he was proceeding west

on Washington Street

with his hostage.

However, the men,

the police department

got a good look at the

setup on the hostage

involving the gun next

to the man's head.

- He was wired around his

fingers and around his arm.

So if he let go of it he

would still pull the trigger.

He had a cable around

the man's throat attached

to the shotgun, so

there's no way to get

the shotgun away

from the man's head.

So I told him, whatever

you want, just let me know.

- [Reporter] He didn't say

anything about his intentions?

- He said that he was going

to get everything he wanted

or he would shoot the

man, that's about all.

He never did tell me

exactly what he wanted.

He just kept walking.

- [Reporter] Did Mr.

Hall say anything

as you were walking

along the road?

- No.

No.

He appeared to be fairly

calm for the situation that,

he did what he was told

and walked when he was told

to walk and stopped when

he was told to stop.

- [Reporter] Would you describe

the suspect as being

extremely nervous?

- No.

For the situation I'd

say he's fairly calm.

He knew exactly

what he was doing.

- [Reporter] You've known

Tony for a number of years.

What kind of guy is he?

- Well, he's always been

a kind of reasonable man.

He just seems to

be excited over,

he felt he's being

beat out of some money

over this real estate

deal, and apparently,

this loan company, whatever

loan company it is.

- [Reporter] If he says

he's going to do something

is he the kind of

guy that'll do it?

- Well, I would say yes,

as long as I've known him.

- [Reporter] Now

you were up there

talking through the door to him.

What did he tell you?

- Well, he just told me that

he wasn't going to go to jail.

And he's going to see

to it he's treated right

on that loan that

they beat him out of,

or he probably wouldn't

come out of there,

neither would Mr.

Hall, whoever that is,

apparently the president of

this real estate

or loan company.

- [Reporter] Now, do

you think knowing him

that saying something like

that he really means it?

- I definitely do,

without any question.

- You could see up there in his

apartment he had strings

all the way across.

Well, what happened, he had

cans of gasoline with candles.

And if a string broke

and the candle went down

and it hit the gasoline,

then away it went.

And because of that the

snipers couldn't do anything.

I mean, they had a bead

on him, many, many times

up there where they could

have popped him if they want.

But they're afraid if they broke

the window with

the shot, that it

would trigger this

thing and away she went.

- The dangers that lay,

they were up there.

I mean, he'd been telling us all

along the place

is totally wired.

I mean, it looks wired

from everything we can see,

you know, confirm with

EOD, state police,

sheriff and all of our

brain thrust together.

It looked like it was a

very well wired apartment.

- I went out and

talked to him through

the doorway asking him

to please come out.

And it was almost like

he was almost crying,

but he couldn't come out.

He was sorry, he was

sorry, he was sorry,

but he could not come out.

And please don't come in,

Bobby, because it's wired.

- The information got

to the core people

out at the apartment

complex that hey,

this guy's known

to law enforcement.

Well, what's he

been involved in?

Well, not in that way,

you know, they see him.

He's a west side guy,

comes in the restaurant

where they have

coffee in the morning.

Really?

Get them out here.

- [Josh] Frank, you

know Tony fairly well.

Do you know what precipitated

this, what happened today?

- Well, this has been going on

for like three or four years.

It's concerning some

property that he owns

that he wants to get

financed or the bank wants

to second mortgage it or

something of this nature.

It's a financial type

situation and I felt like

he feels like he's been

discriminated against

or something and

this is, I think,

precipitated this

hostage and seizure.

- [Josh] Okay, what happened

after the other two incidents?

He one time held a

city official, seven

or eight years ago.

Then he held his sister.

- Yes.

- [Josh] For some time.

- Yes.

- [Josh] What happened

after those two incidents?

Did he just go free?

- Well, I arrested him one

time for assault and battery

with intent to kill and

he was put on probation.

He took a couple

shots at his brother.

- Any advanced warning on this,

or is this something

that just came out

of the clear blue

sky this morning?

- See, I don't know

because I haven't

seen Tony for two

or three years.

And I see his

brother, like, weekly.

And Tony communicates with

his brother quite a bit

and he's got a lot

of respect for him.

And he thinks, probably, more

of his brother than anybody.

- [Josh] And that's who

they're going to get now.

- Yes, yes.

- [Josh] Thank you, Frank.

- I was on business

in Brown County

and my wife hit me on the radio

and said call home right away.

I went into a

service station on,

east of National on 46,

it was a Shell station.

And I went in and I

said, "Steve, may I

use your telephone?"

And he said look up at the TV.

He said look what the hell's

going on in Indianapolis.

And I looked up

there and I said,

my God, I said,

that's my brother.

That's how I learned.

You think the worst

when you see that.

You know?

Get killed, killing somebody,

all the things you

don't want to happen.

I called Frank Levin and told

him I would be on my way.

And he asked me, he said,

"Jim, do not drive."

He said, "We're going

to send a helicopter."

He said, "Where can it land?"

[helicopter whirring]

- [Josh] He has three brothers,

but he doesn't like two of them.

The one he does like,

Jimmie Kiritsis,

was called to his brother by

helicopter from Brown County.

He, Tony Kiritsis has

rejected any attempts

for anybody to get near the

apartment to talk with him.

The situation is, he

says he's not insane,

he knows what he's doing.

- Good, Josh, thank you.

And, of course,

Josh is on the scene

and any moment anything develops

there we'll be on the air.

- It was very obvious

from those early

conversations that

we were dealing

with somebody who

is very, very sick

and was capable

of being violent.

- [Norman] I'm going to

mention the evacuation.

- Beg pardon?

- [Norman] I'm going to

mention the evacuation.

- Any reason to?

- [Norman] To give us

some way to get into it.

- Do your own thing, but uh...

- [Norman] Is there any

reason not to do it?

- Hell, I don't know.

[men laughing]

- [Norman] If there's

any reason not to.

- I've never done this before.

- Howard, the

gunman, Mr. Kiritsis

and the mortgage

executive, Mr. Hall,

are still in the

third floor apartment.

Nothing much has changed,

except that about 500

people are being evacuated

from these apartments.

They're going to be

spending the night

at various Indianapolis

area motels.

Howard, we understand the

gunman is watching channel six.

He's made a request and

here to fulfill it we

have Deputy Marion County

Prosecutor, George Martz.

- Tony, as you know, I've

talked to you on the telephone.

You've made certain

specific demands

and in attempting to

comply with these demands

I have requested a

personal friend of yours,

Mr. Cliff Chapman, to

read a statement to you

on behalf of Meridian

Mortgage and Hall-Hottel.

- This statement I

am reading has been

authorized by Mr. M.L.

Hall, the Chairman

of the Board of Meridian

Mortgage and Hall-Hottel.

This is a public apology

to Anthony Kiritsis

for all wrongs Meridian

Mortgage or Hall-Hottel

have committed in respect

to Mr. Kiritsis, thank you.

- That was a statement

from Cliff Chapman

of the mortgage company.

- Paul, we're not allowed to

ask Mr. Chapman any questions.

- [Norman] That was one

of several demands made

by the gunman Mr. Kiritsis.

- He is an employee of the--

- [Announcer] This has

been a special report

from Eyewitness News Center.

- Sorry, there was

a little confusion

there and noise

in the background,

but Kiritsis was

angry, apparently over

the mortgage loan arrangement

with Mr. Hall's company.

He demanded an

apology, demanded that

any financial remuneration

that was going

to come because of

penalties, because of

what had been done, be

paid by the company.

His demands were

met, he asked that

it be on Channel

Six and on WIBC.

And that is what we

know at this date.

Hank, are you still out there?

- Yes, I'm here.

- [Paul] Are there any other

demands that you know of?

- There apparently were

some other demands.

Hold on a second, I'll find

out exactly what they are.

- No arrest, no

psychiatric treatment.

The admission of

guilt by the people,

which he has now

received, as well as

appropriate damages,

which again,

were promised in the

statement here this evening.

As to whether it will

ensure Mr. Hall's release,

that we'll have to wait and see.

- So that's what

we've been doing

as we've been doing

all day, just waiting.

- Thank you, both of

you, Hank and Dennis.

We've brought you

this live report

and the statement that was made

because we have

been requested to

do so by the police department.

We believe in a case

like this it is important

that we cooperate and I'm

sure you'd agree, too.

We'll now return you to

our regular programming.

We will keep you in touch of any

other developments, goodnight.

- [Announcer] This has

been a special report

from Eyewitness News Center.

- Fred Heckman

was the major domo

here on news radio

at that time, WIBC.

He was well respected

and he was like

a Walter Cronkite here in radio.

♪ WIBC

- [Doug] And Fred said

that at some point,

Jim Hillyard, who was

our program director,

called him into the

office because they

were all live on

the radio and said,

"Fred, what are we going to

do about all those fucks?"

- Yes, I can, Jan, and we

have been here all night.

At the beginning of the

night and right up until

just a few minutes ago

there's been kind of

an uneasy stillness around

the apartment complex.

Now, in the last few minutes,

things have become pretty tense.

I'm standing here now

with Jimmie Kiritsis.

- He's not a desperado like

he's being painted up to be.

He's not a thief.

He never asked for a

five million dollar

ransom like it was reported.

He never held my sister, three

years ago or last October,

or whenever it was, they said

it was, for $50,000 dollars.

Them statements are untrue.

And naturally, he's

quite concerned

with the profile that's

been painted of him.

I would like to resolve

it if everybody's

willing and

everything goes well,

maybe we can resolve

it this morning.

- Okay.

- He started to make a

number of legal claims

about how he had

been cheated and how

he had these legal

claims against

the Meridian Mortgage company.

And also one of his demands

that they finally were

able to get was that he

was not to be prosecuted.

He called it an

immunity agreement.

The local authorities said well,

maybe we ought to get

some lawyers involved.

- [Reporter] At mid-afternoon,

one of Kiritsis attorneys,

John Ruckelshaus, came out

to the apartment complex

but would say nothing

about his decision.

- I got a call from

Chief Gallagher and says,

Jack, Tony wants you

here as his lawyer.

Well, you know, like

when Harry Truman

sent me a telegram

and got me in the Army

and I said yes, so out I went.

- [Reporter] Have you examined

the immunity offer yet?

- We don't know yet.

We're just out here

and we're going in.

That's all I can say.

- They both were brought in,

basically as lawyers for him.

They were trying to defuse the

situation as much

as everybody else.

But at the same time protecting

their client's interests.

- Considered, no.

- [Reporter] Have there

been any additional demands?

- No additional demands.

- [Reporter] What about the

problem with the immunity?

Have you made up

your mind whether

you're going to give

it to him or not?

- This is a problem that

will have to be resolved

by the Marion County

Prosecutor's office.

- [Reporter] Well, what

are they going to do?

I mean, is there any

indication they're going

to reject it or

approve it, or what?

- Immunity has been discussed a

number of times in

the conversation.

However, there's been no

resolution of the question.

- [Reporter] Basically,

then, we're at the same

point we have been

for the past 30 hours.

That's, he's calling the

shots and we're just waiting.

- That would be a pretty

fair assessment, yes.

- [Doug] Apparently,

Lou, within the last 25

or 30 minutes the situation

has deteriorated some.

To what extent,

exactly, we don't know,

although there has

been a good deal

of yelling and

screaming going on

over the telephone

and through the door.

- It became apparent

to us during the course

of this event that Tony

Kiritsis's real window

on what was occurring

was WIBC radio.

He was in contact with Fred.

Fred was back in

contact with him,

but he was also listening.

- [Doug] The Army

bomb squad that's here

has begun to try and

think of ways to somehow

get in without setting

off the explosives.

We're told unofficially,

they could get in without

setting them off if

Kiritsis were incapacitated.

- That particular moment

when the report went

that the S.W.A.T. team

was prepared to move,

it became frighteningly

clear what

kind of implication there was to

this kind of live

broadcast journalism.

[phone ringing]

[dial tone ringing]

[phone ringing]

[dial tone ringing]

[phone ringing]

[laughs]

- Paul, the situation right

now is actually rather tense.

Within the past 20

minutes Tony Kiritsis

gave an order that everyone

get out of the building.

There, of course, have

been police in the building

as well as some

friends and relatives

of Tony who have been

talking with him.

He gave an order to get

out of the building.

- You don't want to say

anything to set the guy off.

And maybe what

you're saying doesn't

appear to be

incendiary, but it is.

[phone ringing]

- [Judd] So Fred was

kind of thrust into

the position as a negotiator.

- [Man] Do it.

- [Josh] Okay.

- [Man] We're not live, just

go ahead and do the interview.

- [Josh] Okay, fine, fine.

Okay, they're setting

up a negotiating

team inside this

van in back of us.

How effective do you

think that will be?

- Well, I think at this time

we have to try almost anything.

Tony is coherent enough

to reason with somebody

and his attorney is

talking on his behalf.

And I think it

will be productive.

- And then the FBI

sent in this hostage

negotiator psychologist who

had a heck of a reputation.

I mean, he had a countrywide

reputation on these things.

And he, of course, was

trying to size Tony up

as to how to handle him and

how to direct questions to him,

don't get him excited and

all this kind of stuff.

And he really knew

what he was doing.

- I had a fella in class

and it was Mr. Gallagher.

He got on the phone to

the director of the FBI

and asked if I could be sent out

there to assist

them in negotiating.

- He was the first person that

described himself as a profiler

and I'd never even

heard the term before.

But he said that he

could, by looking at

how Mr. Kiritsis had built

his gun and how he dressed,

he pretty much had Tony's

mental side pegged.

He's the one that then told

us certain things to do

and certain things not to

do in dealing with him.

And in formulating our

approach of basically

conceding to Tony,

that was all based upon

the psychology of Mr. Kiritsis

that Patrick came up with.

He said that a person

with this personality type

needs to be in control

of the situation.

And anytime that you

try to take that back,

then we're going

to have a situation

that becomes very,

very dangerous.

- In Indianapolis a man

named Anthony Kiritsis

is still holding a hostage,

a real estate executive.

The drama is in its second day

and our man, Mike

Jackson, is there.

- What kind of a man

is Anthony Kiritsis?

Friends of his who

have come out to

the apartment complex

to dissuade him

from doing anything

rash say he is

an emotional man, a

man prone to anger.

Police say he has a record,

mainly for beating people up.

One policeman, who didn't

want to be identified,

a man who said he

grew up with Kiritsis,

says he is a good

friend and a bad enemy.

He had purchased

this 17 acres of land

and cleared many of

the trees himself,

hoping to start a

shopping center.

He said he had some

commitments from

a grocery store

chain offering about

three million dollars

to start a center.

Then he says the

mortgage company

moved in and lured

the prospective

clients away to

other properties.

One of Kiritsis'

demands was that

the company apologize

for that and it did.

Today, Kiritsis said

in a radio station

telephone interview

he does not believe

the company's apology

and intends to go free.

Authorities say their

only hope is to keep

Kiritsis talking, so

his family and friends

are doing that through

the door of his apartment.

They are convinced that if the

talking stops people will die.

Mike Jackson, NBC

News, Indianapolis.

[ominous music]

- [Man] Kevin, it

may well be that Fred

has become perhaps

involved in negotiations.

He merely got a phone

call from the FBI,

they asked him to

come out as quickly

as possible and he has done so.

- We were able to sit down

with Fred and tell Fred,

hey, make upbeat comments,

get him pepped up again.

And he would do it and all of

a sudden Kiritsis responded.

- They could understand

a mood and understand

a mood well enough to sort

of utilize where it is

in an up or a down cycle

to control and manipulate.

I thought that was fascinating.

- Kiritsis was

pretty easy to chart.

But what you had

to be very careful,

when he was down

in that low level

that's the area where

despair sets in and they

make judgments like I've

nothing to live for,

so I might as well

kill this SOB.

- There have been

some published reports

this afternoon quoting

prosecutor James Kelly,

who has been out of town

during this incident,

he's in Los Angeles

attending a conference,

quoting Kelly as

saying that if immunity

from arrest is what's

needed to prevent death

or prevent injury, he

is prepared to grant it.

- Good evening,

I'm in a room near

the police headquarters

outside the apartment

of Tony Kiritsis where he's

holding Dick Hall hostage.

We've been requested airtime by

the Marion County Public

Prosecutor's office

in order to give an address by

Deputy County

Prosecutor George Martz,

an address apparently aimed

at Tony Kiritsis himself.

Now, here's Mr. Martz.

- Thank you, at this

time I would like to read

a letter from the office

of the prosecuting attorney

of Marion County, James

F. Kelly, prosecutor.

This document is dated

February 9, 1977.

It's entitled letter of immunity

granted to Anthony

George Kiritsis.

Mr. Anthony George Kiritsis,

the Marion County

prosecutor, James F. Kelly,

does hereby confer and grant to

Anthony George Kiritsis

immunity from prosecution

with reference to the

abduction of Richard Hall

and all subsequent

acts done or alleged

to have been done or caused by

the said Anthony

George Kiritsis.

This document is

signed James F. Kelly,

authorized by David L. Rimstidt.

Mr. Kelly has been contacted by

myself on two occasions today,

the last time approximately

10 minutes ago.

He is fully aware

of this agreement

and you have his

assurance that the terms

of this agreement will

be strictly enforced.

- I know there were

some meetings there

where Ruckelshaus

confronted Rimstidt after

the immunity tender

was made and put him

on the spot and said, "Do

you intend to honor this?"

Used some colorful

language in that regard.

And, as he described,

Rimstidt making

some squirms and

turns and said yes.

- A few moments ago I spoke

with Tony's brother, Jimmie,

to see how he feels about

the offer of immunity.

- If you just bear with us maybe

we'll have something, hopefully.

- When was the last

time you talked to Tony?

- I talked to him this morning.

- Is he still calm?

- Yes, very calm.

- How do you feel about

the offer of immunity?

Do you think it's a good one?

- Yes, it's a very good one.

- Have you recommended

it to Tony?

- I told him it was

a very good one.

I don't recommend it, he

can, he's very capable

and very intelligent and

he'll make up his own mind.

- From your point of view,

though, it's a good one?

- Yes, it's a, under the

circumstance, a very good one.

He may just walk away.

- Are you hopeful this

thing can wind up today?

- Yes.

- Let me ask you

another question.

If immunity is granted,

what effect might this have,

do you think, on

people who might be

considering the same

course of action?

Some people might

consider that this

would encourage them to

do this kind of thing.

What do you think?

- Well, I think

that's a possibility,

but I don't think it

has anything to do

with the situation that

we're confronted with.

I mean, that possibility.

We had to do what was

necessary and it's been

worked out to

everyone's satisfaction.

The police agencies were

thoroughly consulted,

prosecutor's office

worked with them.

And in this particular instance

it was the thing that was done.

- Do you think the public would

accept the man who

had put a shotgun

to another man's

head going free?

- Well, there's going to be some

that will object to it, sure.

And there's going

to be some that will

think that it was the

proper thing to do.

We're going to be

second-guessed, but

that's part of life.

- The big demand

has been immunity.

First, the opportunity

to voice his complaint

against the mortgage

company of which Hall

is an executive, but secondly,

the grant of immunity,

that nothing be

done to him because

of what Tony Kiritsis has done.

That offer has been offered,

that offer has been made

to Tony Kiritsis by the Marion

County Prosecutor's office.

And the big question tonight

as it was last night,

and as it was this

morning, is whether

Tony Kiritsis is

going to accept that.

The sun is setting out

here, but the story

is certainly far, far

from over and so we wait.

[tense music]

- And then we have the

concept of creating a stage.

That's why we all

retreated to the

lobby of that

apartment building.

That was meant for him to see

on television to suck him out.

We knew that once

he saw it he'd say

to himself, that's

where I should be.

- Right, I talked to him, I bet,

half a dozen times on the phone.

The last of which I called

him and said we got the note,

promissory note for

five million bucks.

No answer, phone

rang, rang, rang

and the next thing I

heard somebody said,

"Oh God, here he comes down."

- [Reporter] He's coming

out, he's coming out!

[dramatic music]

[audience clapping]

- While you people are watching

on television thank

you for taking such a--

- [Announcer] We interrupt

our program schedule

to bring you the following

special report from ABC News.

- Turn the goddamn cameras on!

I'm gonna show you something.

Read that, pal, read it!

Turn the cameras on,

all three, hold it!

I want on national television!

I've been called a kidnapper,

an extortionist, a thug

and everything else!

I want it on all three

national channels!

I've got friends all

over the country!

You read it!

- And I go through

the double doors

and I am struck by

what is the most

bizarre scene I've

ever seen in my life.

- They goddamn near made me

blow his goddamn brains out!

- We have these ranking

officers and Fred Heckman

standing behind Tony

who's holding the gun

to Dick's head and out

here in the audience

are all of these

cameras and reporters.

And it's as though the oxygen

has gone out of the room.

Everybody is on edge.

- To as being the illegal--

- Hold it, hold it, I want

this goddamn thing understood.

I'll read it!

February 10th, 1977, I

want a glass of water!

This statement is

being made to try

and state the items that

Mr. Kiritsis alludes,

and I don't like that word.

I charged and

they've admitted it.

Alludes to as being illegal and

unethical acts of

the Hall Group.

This lease negotiation

approved the Kiritsis site

and had a definite

interest in building there.

Give me a drink, pal.

Give me a drink.

[cameras clicking]

- Good enough?

Alright, go easy.

- Yeah, and I'm sober friends.

I had six drinks in 1976 and

I haven't had any this year.

This was presented to

us and was potentially

a good business

deal, but we found

it impossible to agree on terms

satisfactory to

our best interest.

Their best interest!

I went up there to

borrow money to build

a 10,000 foot restaurant

that would have grossed

between a million and two

million bucks a year and

these motherfuckers shopped

it to somebody else!

I had a lessee who guaranteed me

$100,000 dollars a

year rent plus 10% over

a million dollars and

I could have built

the building for

$220,000 bucks and put

$100,000 dollars worth

of equipment in it!

Listen to this one.

It's almost funny.

This trooper right here.

Come here, Mark, hell of

a good friend of mine.

A lot of friends of

mine here seen me,

has seen me about

every night for

three or four years

out in a couple

of restaurants around

here having coffee.

Too goddamn desperate

to do anything else.

So goddamn mad,

couldn't think good

and he always wondered what

was wrong, now he knows.

Right, Mark?

- Yes, man.

- Hell of a man,

good cop, this guy.

Good cop.

- [Tom] His eyes,

the eyes of Tony

will occasionally

dart around the room,

and if he will,

if he sees someone

he recognizes he

will acknowledge them

and perhaps have a

comment or two about them.

All week he has

talked about revenge.

Part of that revenge is

being acted out tonight.

And almost an empty and

hollow look in the eyes

of Dick Hall as he

gazes around the room.

And he will make eye

contact with people,

but it's almost as

though he is, it's just

a proforma gesture showing

very little emotion.

- [Lou] Yeah, I

suspect he must believe

that is what he must do

because he could trigger

the situation if he should

react one way or the other.

- This brave young man and

his father would have said,

Tony I'll tell you

what we're going to do.

Because you're a nice fella

and basically, really,

we love you, we wouldn't

hurt you for anything,

we'll take the cream,

we'll take the front

10 acres there for

$130,000 and you can have

the back seven where

all the hogs shit.

Mr. M.L. Hall, this

gentleman's father

also states that

he personally takes

responsibility for

these improprieties.

I'm gonna frame

that, I'm through.

Where's my attorney?

- He had this thing about

he wanted everybody to hear

what had been done to

him, how he was wronged.

I mean, that was his litany

over and over and over again.

Should we keep on

with this, what if

he kills this man in

front of everybody?

Let alone the language

which was not heard

on TV at that time

on any channel.

And it was surreal.

- I think he wanted to

tell his side of the story.

As far as the public knew

Kiritsis was a madman.

He was bright enough

that he understood that

and saw how he was

being portrayed.

And so I think he called Fred

to try to get his story out.

If I can get Fred to

let me air my side of

the story then maybe

people will see my point.

- [Tony] Hi, Fred.

- Hello, Tony.

- You're gonna be late for

work in the morning, pal.

- I think I'm gonna sleep late.

- I don't know if you can

get away with that, can you?

- Not really.

- I have to, I have to say again

that Mr. Fred

Heckman here of WIBC.

- Fred Heckman, in my

opinion, was a jewel.

He was thrown into

a bad situation,

but he was a gentleman

through the whole damn thing.

- I have some people that

might be watching this

in various places and I'm

not trying to be funny.

And I never did like notoriety

and I don't like it

any better tonight,

but my aunts in Akron,

Ohio and my cousins

and some damn good Greek

friends in the state of Florida,

and some people I was in the

Army with in New England.

And I want them to know

that, by God, I was right.

- [Tom] Lee and Lou,

Paul Page is back

in the back of the room

now and we're going

to try and make some

contact with Paul.

Go ahead, Paul.

- [Paul] Tom, we continue to

watch in the back of the room.

I'm keeping my

voice low because of

the nature of the

circumstance here.

We have a man who is

very anxiety-prone.

He continues to stand

with an automatic shotgun

jammed up against the

back of the man's skull.

Tony continues to

move from a position

of happiness to one of

somewhat depression.

It's a very, very, very

dangerous atmosphere

at the moment.

If the shotgun fell there's

no real change in the room,

it would not only

injure his hostage,

it's going to injure an awful

lot of people in this room.

We'll continue to watch

and we'll report back.

- And I also want to apologize

to this man's family.

I am sorry I humiliated

this man, this way,

even though he must have

surely had it coming.

[tense music]

- Every once in a

while he'd look at Hall

and the back of

his head, and boy,

and the look on his

face, I thought,

oh God, he's going

to pull that trigger.

- I went to Gene

Gallagher and I said,

Gene, I'm getting

a little nervous.

He's almost sounding suicidal.

- And Mullaney was

standing right next to me

and he said, my God, he's going

to shoot him on television.

- That was the

scariest part, to me.

He would laugh and

then he would cry.

[laughs]

- Yeah, yeah, you know for a

goddamn dummy I lucked out.

I want to take,

I'd like to please,

a lot of nice people called

me in two or three days

and told me that

they were behind me.

- [George] We're

behind you, Tony.

- And I want to thank them.

- [George] We're

behind you, Tony.

- I want to thank my

brothers, Jimmie and George

and Mark and John, Johnny there.

I can't think of his last

name, Johnny Ferguson.

[crying]

Billy Cotton and the

people that supported me.

And I can tell you, by

God, I was in trouble.

I was in a hell of

a lot of trouble.

You saw one of these

goddamn things off

and kidnap somebody I'm

going to tell you something,

I'm sorry, but there ain't

much left in that old road.

I said when I started out

I figured I'd be on a long,

narrow, one-way dead end

road and that's what it was.

- Tony was becoming so riled

up that Gallagher was going,

okay, this is it, you know,

I've got to do something.

Because he's going to blow

this guy's head off on live TV.

- If they felt that

Tony had finally gone

to the point too far

that he was going to

eliminate Dick Hall, Tony

was going to be taken out.

- Chief Gallagher told

Josh, when I retire

come talk to me about

the plan to kill Tony.

They had talked to a doctor

at the hospital and said,

what's the best way to

kill Tony instantly?

And he said, put a gun behind

his ear and pull the trigger.

- My role, if I

was given the nod,

was to try to jam the

shotgun itself with

the cylinder on the side

where you eject shells.

And if you notice,

there was a sleeve

across that cylinder

part of that gun.

It would have been

almost impossible

for me to grab it and

jam it at the time.

- Chief Gallagher, he

had a gun in one pocket

and a handkerchief in the other.

When he pulled the

handkerchief out that meant

that he was going to

shoot and kill Tony.

He said three times, he

reached into his pocket

for the handkerchief during

the press conference.

And he said three

times he put it back.

- This is Chief Gallagher

of the Indianapolis

Police Department and

also a damn fine man

and this man was fair with

me, damn fair with me.

Well, I'm gonna tell

you, this man is safe.

- The only thing I wanted

at the time was for

this to end without

anybody getting hurt.

Had I went for the

shotgun, made a mistake,

Dick Hall would have been

dead, Tony Kiritsis been dead.

- [Charles] Tony, sorry to

interrupt, we're going to--

- Hi, come here,

you're awful bashful.

- [Charles] I'm the shy one.

- Would you like

to smile for us?

- [Charles] For you, I will.

- I shaved before I came

over here and you never

even came out, get that

goddamn thing done.

- [Charles] We're

going right now, Tony.

- If you wasn't a good attorney

I don't know what

I'd do without you.

- I did not, was not

aware at the time

that there was

negotiations in the back

to bring this out to

Tony that he had won.

- Waiting on that settlement.

- Waiting on damn attorneys.

- Waiting on that five million

dollars that I just stole.

- [Man] Pardon me?

- [George] Give Tony

some more room in here.

- We ought to have

some more water.

I need a little and I--

- Come here, babe.

- Here, Dickie.

- I'm on the job.

- Give it to Dick.

- Give Dick, here Dick.

Got it?

- George, if you

don't get out from

in front of them

goddamn cameras--

- Oh, I'm sorry.

- You're not going to be

in any more of my shows.

- I'm upstaging you.

- You know that?

- I'm sorry, sorry, sorry.

You're doing a

single, my apologies.

- Mark, pull my pants up.

- What, what are you? [laughs]

- Those bastards did that.

- [George] If you had a

little bit of butt in there,

you wouldn't have to

have pulled them up.

- That's it, I've had it.

I'm sorry, it was my turn.

It was my turn to

bat, you believe that.

- Tony, you want to go back and

winter in until Billy gets--

- Yeah, let's get out of here.

Where's it cool?

- Where's Frank at?

- Where's it cool?

- I want to thank, I

want to thank the people

that supported me, I

want to thank the people

that were fair, I'm

sorry about my language

and I'm sorry that this

thing had to happen.

- Tony, follow me.

- Okay.

- Follow John, Tone.

- [Mark] We're going with you.

- We're talking, we're

talking, we're talking,

this news conference

is going along.

It's being broadcast

live and all of a sudden

the focus of the news

conference and his hostage

move out into this other

room and the media's

kind of standing there

like, what's going on,

what's going on, what do we do?

[people chattering]

- [Lou] Okay, so they

are out of sight.

They are at the

apartment complex still.

- So then at the end

it was just the payday,

was the five million

dollar promissory

note that we were

willing to give.

And that was to be

done when he released

the hostage we

would sign the note

and that would be

the end of the story.

- Okay, Paul, I'm presently

outside the building

where the really

amazing news conference,

of sorts, took

place moments ago.

What happened was that

that ended and Tony

and Dick Hall, again

still attached by the gun,

moved down a hallway

in that building.

At that point the

police ordered all

news personnel out

of the building.

- [Man] It's nice

and cool in here.

- [Policeman] Harry, Tony

wants to talk to you.

- [Man] Tony, there's

people out there,

lots of people out there.

[gun firing]

- [Cameraman] Go on

live, go on live.

- Stay there, there's

nothing we can do.

- [Cameraman] Go on live,

go to him, go to him!

Get him to go to him.

[people chattering]

- Paul, here at the scene you

may not be able to see me,

we're not allowed to use lights.

A dramatic development

just a few moments ago,

we did hear a gunshot.

At this point we do not

know exactly what it means.

We heard a gunshot,

there is no way

of knowing what exactly

developed, just before--

- [Cameraman] Stand by.

- Yeah, I thought

he killed Hall.

I mean, it was, I knew

what a shotgun sounded like

and I knew that was a shotgun.

- Come on.

Mac, pick that up.

Mac's got it.

Okay, we're getting

over to George Martz.

[people chattering]

- [Man] And is

Hall out of danger?

- Sure, we got him.

We got him, he's okay.

- [Reporter] Where's Tony?

- I have no idea.

I don't know, I

don't give a shit.

- [Reporter] We heard one shot.

What happened?

- I don't know what, I can't

explain the shot, but, but--

- [Reporter] Would you

go find out for us?

- I'll find out.

- [Reporter] George, louder!

- The hostage is out, he's okay!

- The hostage is

released and is alright.

There is no indication yet

as to what the gunshot was.

There is no indication as

to the condition of Tony,

but Martz says the

hostage is alright.

The hostage is alright.

We heard one shot.

We do not know at this

point why we heard it.

But the deputy prosecutor says

that the hostage is alright.

Okay, okay, I've got

some information.

Some new information apparently.

Tony did shoot the gun, but

only as a demonstration that,

indeed, it was real,

only as a demonstration.

- [Reporter] Okay, there's some

activity down the block here.

We're going to see what

else we can find out.

[people chattering]

Okay.

- We're putting

him in the car now.

Watch your head, Tony.

- [Officer] Let's step

back, let's move back.

- [Man] More blasts.

Another shot behind us.

- [George] If I were

Mr. Hall I'd go home.

I don't know.

- [Reporter] Is he

still in the building?

- Yeah.

- [Reporter] Can you

just, can you reconstruct

what you know about

the time from when

they left us till

all was resolved?

- They went into the command,

what was the command post,

they negotiated and

they released Mr. Hall.

He walked out in the hall and

we took him down

to another room.

- [Reporter] So there was

more negotiation inside.

Do you know the nature of it?

- Nope, sure don't.

- [Reporter] Who undid

the wires, for example?

- I don't know, I wasn't

in, I was not in the room.

I don't, I really [laughs],

I really don't care.

He's, he's, we got

him, everybody's

alive, nobody got hurt.

- [Reporter] Do you think this

thing was handled correctly?

- [Reporter] Is the agreement

any good that you signed?

Immunity agreements, are

they valid in any way at all?

Will they stand up in any court?

- We promised immunity.

I'm going to have a

statement on this at a

later time and I would

like to be able to collect

my thoughts and be able

to discuss it rationally.

I'm very tired at

the present time.

I'd rather not discuss it.

- Have you any precedent at this

point for this kind of thing?

- I just would rather not

comment at this present time.

- [Reporter] Is that press

conference going to be tomorrow?

- We'll, you'll be notified.

[people chattering]

- And we ended up down

at Wishard in the holding

cell down there which

was a padded cell.

I mean, you had a

window about like this.

I was inside with Tony alone

and all of a sudden Tony,

he was about five,

about five, six,

something like that,

stocky as hell,

and I was about six two.

And he had grabbed me

around the neck like this

and said, Jack, he says, I

really screwed up, didn't I?

I thought he was going

to break my damn neck.

And I said, Tony, I said,

you got some problems.

I said, I didn't argue with him

and I didn't agree with him.

I just put the neuter in

there and I got back over

there toward the door

and I hit on that window

like this to get me

the hell out of there.

Then they finally opened

the door and I got out.

But, boy, that was a scary time.

I thought the guy was

going to break my neck,

because he's strong as a bull.

- In Indianapolis Anthony

Kiritsis held a shotgun

at the head of a kidnapped

hostage for 60 hours

demanding a promise he

would not be prosecuted.

Well, he got the promise.

Today, not surprisingly,

when he let

the hostage go he

found the promise was

not worth the paper

it was written on.

The hostage is free and

Kiritsis is in jail.

Here's Mike Jackson

in Indianapolis.

- [Mike] Kiritsis

staged a bizarre

news conference that

lasted almost an hour.

No one knew whether he

would fire the shotgun

and kill his hostage or others.

Hostage Richard Hall's

face was almost purple

because the wire around

his neck was so tight.

Kiritsis was taken immediately

to the county jail.

He is charged with seven crimes

including kidnapping

and armed robbery.

His bail is more than three

quarters of a million dollars.

He was arrested even though

he had been promised immunity.

Mike Jackson, NBC

News, Indianapolis.

- Immunity cannot be

granted to an accused.

A document was typed

up and given to him

which would have granted

him immunity so long

as the prosecutor's

office honored the terms.

I'll say this, there was

never any intention on

the part of the prosecutor's

office to honor the terms.

- That's pure and simply it.

- He's presently in jail.

The total bond is

$850,000 dollars.

Yes, ma'am?

[people chattering]

[audience clapping]

- [Female Reporter] Hall was

greeted by a standing ovation,

by warm applause

as he bravely faced

the news media in the city

county building today.

His wife was by his side.

The strain of the

events of the past

three days evident

on both faces.

Hall had been advised

by his attorneys

to not answer questions

on the details of

his treatment as a

hostage, but he did talk.

He did have some things

he wanted to say.

- It's been a long ordeal.

My family and I are

extremely grateful

to God for a safe

solution in this ordeal.

We're most appreciative

of all those

thoughts and prayers

that were with us

and we can't express

enough our gratitude.

- [Female Reporter] And

then more applause as Hall,

obviously a strong,

stoic individual,

left the news conference.

Many questions

remain unanswered,

but for now Richard Hall says he

is content to just

close the door.

Close the door on the harrowing

events of the past three days.

- I eventually told

Tony that I couldn't

represent him because

I'm going to end up being

a state's witness in this

thing and I can't do both.

I said, I'll get you a lawyer

and I'll get you a good one.

That's when I got

him Owen Mullin.

Well, they didn't last too long

because they didn't get along.

I mean, it's very difficult for

somebody to get along with Tony.

He doesn't want to take orders,

he wants to give orders.

And Owen, of course,

being a lawyer,

says you're going to do

what I tell you to do.

And how he got ahold of

Stanton, I don't know.

- I happened to be

representing a man

named Roger Drollinger

at the time.

Drollinger was in the

Marion County jail

in a cell next to Tony Kiritsis.

But Drollinger and Kiritsis

got along real well

and Drollinger recommended

me as a lawyer.

So on Drollinger's

recommendation

Kiritsis decided to hire me.

- In a case of this

magnitude you research every

potential legal issue that

you can possibly argue.

You research the

insanity defense.

You research jury instructions.

You research every potential

legal issue you can

because Tony was facing

a life imprisonment.

- Tony, of course,

didn't want this defense.

His defense would have

been, they had it coming.

So, it's been an all-time

loser of a defense.

In fact, studies show

that it's a very minute

percent of people ever

assert this defense

and in those cases very

few people will win it.

- The theory of our

defense was that Tony

was insane at the

time of the offense.

If we were to investigate

Meridian Mortgage

and if we had been able to prove

that Tony's

allegations were true,

then it would suggest

that he wasn't

out of touch with

reality and he was simply

mad at Meridian Mortgage

and that he just

took the law into his own hands.

That's not a defense.

Everybody saw Tony do it.

Everybody saw the horror

in Dick Hall's face

and saw the possibility

that that trigger's

going to get pulled

intentionally,

or unintentionally,

and on live TV

you're going to

watch somebody die.

Erasing those images

or at least allowing

the jury to say, I can

understand the acts

actually occurred,

but still find

somebody not guilty

was a real challenge.

- Mr. Stanton said,

"Would you like

"to meet Mr. Kiritsis

and talk with him?"

In several interviews that

lasted several hours each

became very knowledegable about

what had led up to this

incident in his life.

He had a very interesting

and difficult life.

He was the son of immigrant

parents from Greece.

They were very poor,

very hardworking.

He loved his mother dearly.

His father was, apparently,

quite a mean man,

physically violent

toward the children.

One of the stories

he told was that

at the ice cream stand

that they worked at,

the younger children

had to go around

the parking lot and

pick up the empty

paper cups and wash

them so that they

could be reused as a

way of saving money.

He remembers on one

occasion when they didn't

get all of them picked

up quickly enough

and a car backed

over some of them,

his father whipping him

out in this public space

in front of one of

Mr. Kiritsis's friends

and family and then whoever else

happened to be

there in that area.

- He was brought in by two

very big men hanging onto him.

He was very upset that

people are so mean to him.

That they would arrest

him, that they would

put him in prison

and lock him up.

Why would they do that to him?

No, he knew what he was doing.

He was doing it on purpose,

this man deserves it.

Where the kink in

his thinking was that

he had been hurt and

therefore, if he was hurt,

he was able to go out and

do things to make it right.

He would have long

times where he was

a good solid citizen

and he would have other

times where he was

basically a wild man.

- There's three things going

on in a case like this.

And that is first of all,

the prosecutor is trying

to make their case, obviously,

beyond a reasonable doubt

and not make mistakes

that are going to be

grounds for appeal if

the case goes up, if

the guy's found guilty.

The defense wants

to make mistakes,

they want to make a shambles

of the trial if they can,

so there's lots of things

they can argue about.

And then the judge's role is

to keep very tight control

of the courtroom, keep

tight control of the jury

and not make any

mistakes that are likely

to be used on appeal

if he's found guilty.

The defense

psychiatrist said yes,

he was insane at the time.

The prosecution psychiatrist

said no, he wasn't.

And I think because the

psychiatric testimony

was fairly strong on both sides,

I think the jury kind

of just disregarded it.

- We got tired of them.

They all talked

in clinical terms.

Was Tony paranoid or

was he schizophrenic,

or maybe he wasn't?

So we had to try to make sense

of that and after a while,

in all honesty, it got very

confusing and almost pointless.

- This was not the

first time that

Kiritsis had done

something like this.

This was kind of a

reenactment of an incident

that he had had

with his own family.

- Effie Kiritsis testified next.

Tony's older sister

had to be lifted into

the witness chair as she

is crippled with arthritis.

She had not seen her

brother for eight years.

At that time he broke

into her home with a gun

and held her for

two and a half days

while demanding a

financial settlement

for his work at the

family trailer court.

It was brother Tom,

however, who revealed

that the family

agreed to give Tony

$55,000 dollars,

to not send Tony

to a psychiatrist,

to not press charges.

Ironically, the details

of the agreement

for Effie's release were

remarkably like those

demanded by Kiritsis when

he held Dick Hall hostage.

Linda Lupear for

the news, Channel 6.

He put Tony on the stand,

which was surprising,

and I thought at that

point, well we're really

going to hear what Meridian

Mortgage did to him.

And it was the same old story.

Just when you thought you

were going to find out

what it was that they had

done that really set him off,

he would zing off, which

made you think that well,

he just couldn't pay the

mortgage and eventually

they were going to

foreclose on the land.

I mean, that's basically

where you ended up every time.

I mean, it happened several

times during the testimony.

And I thought, well, is that it?

- They had given Tony

an extension of time

in which to pay his

mortgage payments

on the land that he was buying.

And they'd done this

repeatedly and then when

they finally didn't

then he thought, well,

this meant they were

trying to cheat him.

He thought that they

had interfered with

his efforts to develop

the land and hoping

that he would therefore

fall behind on payments

so that they could get it

for, the land for a low price.

And that's, there was just

not evidence to back that up.

- I did to Dick Hall

was a terrible thing,

a horrible thing.

I didn't want to do it

and I tried not to do it.

At that point he

burst into tears.

Defense attorney Niles

Stanton then led him

through a narration about

his early family life.

His voice quivering,

Kiritsis said he loved

his father in spite

of his strictness.

He began pushing

an ice cream cart

12 hours a day at

the age of nine.

At times he broke

down completely

and needed time to

compose himself.

Kiritsis told a different story

of the abduction of

his sister saying

he was being pushed

out by the family.

Things became very cool.

He was very hurt by what

Effie and his brothers did.

The jury stared at the defendant

as he told of a vow he

made over his mother's

casket promising to

take care of the family.

He dropped a class

ring in the coffin.

He said he made a

cross on the wall

in his own blood the

day he broke the oath.

That was the day the family

threw him out of

the trailer park.

And we might add, Clyde,

that the courtroom

was packed all day.

- [Clyde] I'll bet.

What's it look like for

the rest of the trial?

- Well, it will

probably go to the jury,

the judge says maybe

by next Thursday.

- [Clyde] Okay, thanks Linda.

- We had lots and lots of jury

instructions in this case.

Basic instruction was,

was at the time of

the offense did he

have a mental disease

or defect that

prevented him from

understanding the

consequences of his action?

Even if he knew right and wrong,

did he still have enough

volition to be a sane person?

- With that final

instruction not guilty

by reason of insanity

at the time of the act.

Not a minute before

or not a minute after,

at the time of the act.

I thought, wow, I'm surrounded

by a bunch of adults here.

There ain't no way they're

going to see it different,

pssh, but they did.

- We had a tough time of it.

And we came at it

from everybody's

own opinions and

experience and also,

in some cases, correct

and in some cases,

faulty remembrances of what we

heard over the last 14 days.

- We were all so emotionally

drained and tired.

We knew he did it.

It was very evident he did it

from the footage that we saw.

But the problem was the

way the law was written.

We all went back into

the courtroom because

we didn't think we

could come to a verdict.

Judge Dugan told us

that, yes, I think

you can come to a verdict and he

sent us back in for

more deliberations.

- I was prepared to tell

the judge we were going

to be a hung jury if

that's what it took.

All 12 of us had doubts.

The question is

is whether or not

they were reasonable doubt.

- I don't think there

was a single juror

that was happy with the verdict.

- We found out the votes.

The first vote was six to six.

The next vote we learned

was eight to four.

We didn't know which

way eight to four.

The next vote was 10 to two.

The next vote was 11 to

one and then it seemed

to have been 11 to one forever

and then finally

they had a verdict.

But neither side knew which

way the jury was leaning.

- Be seated.

For the record this is CR77-44A.

The time is 10:04 on

October 21st, 1977.

I'll ask the jury and I'll

ask the foreman of the jury,

duly elected, do

you have verdicts?

- [Foreman] I do, Your Honor.

- If you'll pass those verdicts

to the bailiff, please.

Okay, will the

defendant, Mr. Kiritsis,

please rise and

face the bench, sir.

Foreman, the verdict is, we

the jury find the defendant

Anthony J. Kiritsis, not

guilty by reason of--

[screaming]

- I've got to tell

you one thing.

- [Judge] Just a

minute, Mr. Kiritsis.

Just a minute, please.

We further find

that the defendant,

Anthony J. Kiritsis

committed the act charged

in count three of

the information

and that at the time the

defendant was insane and is,

therefore, not guilty

by reason of insanity.

Please be seated.

- I'm sorry, I'm

sorry, Your Honor.

- [Judge] Does the state

wish to poll the jury?

- [Prosecutor] No, Your Honor.

- [Judge] The court now

sets at nine o'clock, a.m.,

November the 9th, 1977,

as that date for a hearing

pursuant to statute on

the question of competency

as to further action by

the court in this case.

With that, the

court is adjourned.

[people chattering]

- I knew how

difficult it was for

the prosecutor to

prove that he was sane.

I think both sides did

an extremely good job.

Based on the testimony

I was surprised

that the jury would

think he was, in fact,

insane when the

offense was committed.

- Yeah, I was in a way because

that's a very difficult defense.

You've gotta have

overwhelming evidence that

a guy is wacko and I

didn't think it was there.

I mean, he was up and down,

yo-yo like and

everything like that.

I had to think the

jury may have felt a

little bit sorry for Tony

on his getting screwed

out of that land or

something like that.

Something to give them an

idea to give him a break.

- I found him to be very

honest and forthright.

I could identify with the

abuse he went through.

To this day I resent anybody

telling me I had better.

It wasn't nothing for

his dad to get him up

and tell him he

had better get out

and start humping

them ice creams.

He was thrust into

a manhood as a child

and I can identify with

that more than you know.

What did he have to gain by not

showing anything

less than the truth?

Okay?

You're not going to

make that stuff up.

- When they took

the insanity defense

the state took the other side.

He was just a mad, mean man.

They would tell you there

wasn't nothing insane about him.

Nothing.

But the minute they

found him not guilty

they switched and

said he's crazy,

he needs more tests and

he should be locked up.

At that point Tony refused

to take any more tests.

He said, you guys said there

was nothing wrong with me.

Now you're saying you

want all kinds of,

and he wasn't, and they

held him for almost 10 years

in contempt of court

for that reason.

And that tells you what

kind of guy Dugan was.

He's very inadequate,

in my opinion.

Because that could not have

been the law, in my opinion.

And I don't who manipulated

him, someone did, though.

I'll always believe that.

I've got my suspicions

but I can't prove them.

- You're not in a

world here where

you can say things

are black or white.

And you have to say they're

somewhere in between.

Certainly, Tony did not meet

the criteria for being insane.

On the other hand, his

behavior was insane.

So, what are you

going to do with that?

[laughs]

You have to work on

that and chew it a bit.

- Let me say something.

We all live in the

greatest country on earth.

But this is the

type of thing that

undermines the

liberties that my father

and my mother came

here from Greece for.

And probably all

of your ancestors

and I'm not trying to be corny.

I may be a flag waver,

but I wave it a hell of

a lot better than John

Wayne, I'll tell you that.

I did not.

- [Reporter] Okay.

[jazzy music]

- I lost credibility

with Kiritsis.

I lost credibility

in the community

and I don't appreciate it.

I didn't care for it

one way or the other

but I had that

credibility in this hand

and I had Hall's

life and, you know,

his wife and children,

his little girls,

on this hand, in my mind.

And I weighed the

two and I, to myself,

said, I felt that his life was,

and if I could help save it,

his life was more

important over here than

the credibility that I'd

have to work to get back.

This is an interesting

point you bring up

because these young

people here at Ball State,

in journalism, in

radio and television

are going to be faced

with it more and more

in the immediate years to come.

Terrorism, with all the

technological advances

that are coming,

coming down now,

and the sophisticated

forms of terrorism

that are being developed

in Europe are coming

across here as surely as

we're sitting here today.

The question now

is what are these

young men and women,

as journalists,

going to be doing when

they have a terrorist

on one hand who says,

"I'm going to poison

"the water supply

of New York City?"

Hey, it is very easy.

I'm going to blow up all

the transmission lines

in the state of Indiana,

the electrical power lines.

And that's not that far fetched.

Technologically, it's

available and it is possible.

Now, if this young

journalist knows this

information does he

broadcast it, does he not?

You know, where do we go?

Prior restraint, I totally

disagree with, prior restraint.

I don't want anybody

telling me that you can

or cannot broadcast

this at any given time.

I don't, my First

Amendment rights, I think,

would be jeoparidized

and violated there.

But we are going

to have to think

about restraints and I,

and here I am waffling.

I'm going from one side of

this fence to the other.

I don't know the answer.

I don't know that anybody does.

- The Kiritsis thing opened

our eyes to a lot of things.

First of all, we have

these insta-cams,

mini-cams, action cams,

they're all the same thing.

They're portable, instant

television cameras

which our promotion departments

and our news departments

thought were great

promotional gimmicks.

You take these out and you give

the impression of

being everywhere live.

We didn't think through the

philosophical

questions involved.

Kiritsis finally brought

it all home to us.

Once you arrive at

the scene of a story

like a Kiritsis

hostage incident,

when you turn that

camera on you are

setting up a life

or death situation

in living rooms all

across the city.

I don't think the question is,

and I'm a little tired

of some of these people

who say they are, the

self-righteous atmosphere,

the attitude of,

of we upheld the

public morality by

pulling the plug on it.

That's nonsense, that's

not the question.

The question is should we

have gone in to begin with?

Should we have set up

that circus atmosphere?

Hour by hour reports

saying this man may have

his head blown off in your

living room at any moment now.

Whether we should, in

effect what we were saying,

we set it up for people

and then to pull the plug

at the moment of

truth is too late.

And I think the questions

that need to be asked

about violence and

these live cameras is

when do you go in and

when do you hold back?

When do you stay

back from the scene?

Because we don't,

when do you inform

and when do you

incite, in other words.

I think this is

probably the first case,

maybe in judicial

history, where the jury

was also the eyewitness

to the crime.

Where everyone in

the jury box had,

not newspaper clippings or

hearsay evidence to go by,

they saw it happen,

either live or in replays.

So when all of those

sober arguments were made

by a criminologist

and psychiatrist about

this man's mental condition,

I'm convinced that,

and I have no evidence other

than my own thoughts on this,

that going through the

minds of the jury were not

all of those arguments

they were hearing,

but what they saw that

night when John Wayne,

who was receiving an

award, suddenly turned into

Tony Kiritsis with

a, holding a gun

to this man's head

in their living room.

I mean, my first reaction was

this is crazy, he's crazy.

And the jury ruled he's crazy

and therefore, innocent.

- Tony became kind

of an annoyance

to people after

a period of time.

I'm not going to

mention any names,

but I got a call from a

television news anchor

who is a friend of

mine and I was working

at another television station

at this time and said,

"Are you getting

calls from Tony?"

And I said yes and

he said so am I.

He said, what are you saying?

I said, Tony, I

tell him, I'm sorry,

you know, you had

some bad breaks.

You know, I, there's nothing I

can do for you at this point.

I can't help you.

And sadly, and I think this is

a moment of honesty

in journalism,

is that Tony was an

old story by that time.

And maybe he should

not have been,

but we were all in a

very competitive business

and we just didn't

see a lot of value

in spending a lot

of time in pursuing

the Tony Kiritsis

story ad nauseum.

But maybe it should

have been pursued.

In retrospect maybe

it should have been,

but none of us made that call.

Most of us made the call

to, to just let it go,

until somebody sort of examines

the significance and the legacy.

So, good for you.

[laughs]