Chasing the Devil: Inside the Ex-Gay Movement (2008) - full transcript

(1960s theme music)

- [Film Narrator] I'm
Lieutenant Williams,

a police officer attached
to the juvenile division.

I'm on my way to Monroe
Junior High School

to talk to a group
of young people.

That looks innocent
enough, doesn't it?

Lots of young people hitch hike.

Seems like a good way to get
from one place to another.

But sometimes there
are dangers involved

that never meet the eye.

Let's take the case
of Jimmy Barnes.



Jimmy played baseball
all afternoon

and he didn't feel
like walking home,

so he decided to thumb a ride.

(car passing)

- [Man One] Started
with a nice man

who picked me up at the
bus stop after school.

And then I discovered
places where you could go.

In those days it was train,

and bus stations,
and movie theaters.

- [Man Two] Going downtown,

getting picked up
from this older guy,

who is actually a
therapist. (laughing)

And he did things to me that

I didn't even know about
up until that point.



- [Woman One] All
I knew was that

something went through my body
when she kissed me. (traffic)

I felt all kinds of sensations
I'd never felt before.

And one was, first, revulsion.

But right on the heels of
that, I felt attraction.

- [Man Three] I knew I
was off track, somehow,

from the boys around me.

I didn't jive with them, I
didn't resonate with them.

- [Man Four] Four years ago, I
self identified as a gay man.

(vehicle breaking)

(group chattering)

(applauding)

- [Joanne Highly]
Thank you, very much.

It's wonderful to be here.

You know, when I mention
the word homosexuality,

we all have different
reactions to it, don't we?

I was just thinking
this last week

when we stood on the steps of
city hall with your pastor,

Pastor Joe Paterra, and we
were protesting the idea

of same sex marriage that
this state is considering.

Now, when I was a girl,

I know you can't remember
that far back. (laughing)

But when I was a girl, there
was no thought of such a thing.

Same sex marriage?

We wouldn't even mention
anything about same sex,

much less same sex marriage.

But yet, when I was 13 years old

I began having same
sex experiences.

Now, this was a shock to me.

I must admit, I
didn't understand

why I got involved
in such a thing.

But I want to tell you
what happened to me,

personally, in my life.

- I just like to ask,
by a show of hands,

how many of you know a
family member or friend,

someone in the
neighborhood, who is gay?

Look at that, a lot of people.

So see, you can
minister to them now.

See, the Bible says;
be the truth in love.

Always in a loving,
respectful way.

Don't be telling em;
you're gonna burn in hell.

- [Audience Member]
That's right.

- Don't say; you're
an abomination.

Speak the truth in love.

You can share the love of
Jesus Christ with people.

- See, the Bible
says clearly that

the testimony has the
power to break Satan's...

- [Richard Wagner] That's right.

- Grip, if you will.

- It says; by the
blood of the lamb,

and the word of your testimony.

So, as you speak your testimony,

as we're speaking the
truth of God's word,

it's penetrating hearts because

the word of God will
not return voided.

It was in high school
that I started to,

for the first time develop
same sex attraction,

and I was devastated.

I was like; why am I havin this?

I will humiliated, I would
never share with anyone.

I remember praying to God;
God take this away from me.

Why am I, I don't
want these feelings.

I was repulsed by it,
but strange enough,

attracted to it
at the same time.

- [Man Five] But I was
at 42nd Street House,

it was part of my coming out.

When I first found out that
men wanted to have sex with me,

once or twice, without my
asking them, men gave me money.

And somebody, probably
on of the other kids

that hung out at the train
station told me that;

oh yeah, if you go
into New York City

you can go on 42nd Street,

and all the men
will give you money.

- They prayed over us,

and I heard, I didn't
hear an audible voice,

but I heard a voice speak to me.

And it said; you're
going to minister

to homosexuals and Jews.

And I though to myself;

well, there are plenty of
both of em in New York City.

So this must be
where we're called.

- What happened to
me, is that I would

go to a bar, or go
to a cruising area

and wait for somebody
to approach me.

I mean, I was not the person
who did the approaching.

I would wait until
someone approached me.

And then, make my
mind up at that point,

whether this is someone I
would want to go with or not.

Might not have been my
first choice, if you will.

But especially early on,

there wasn't any
question of choice.

I mean, all I wanted to
do was get my rocks off.

(turn signal blinking)

- Do you not know
that the wicked

will not inherit
the kingdom of God?

Do not be deceived, neither
the sexually immoral,

nor idolaters, nor adulterers,
nor male prostitutes,

nor homosexual
offenders, nor thieves,

nor the greedy, nor
drunkards, nor slanderers,

nor swindlers will inherit
the kingdom of God.

And that is what
some of you were.

Thank God for that line, right?

- [Audience] Amen.

- But, you were washed,
cause you were dirty, right?

- [Audience Member] Yes.

- You were
sanctified, made holy.

You were justified.

- [Audience] Amen.

- Brought as if you
had never sinned.

In the name of the
Lord, Jesus Christ,

and by the spirit of our God.

- [Audience] Amen.

- We thank God for this
opportunity to be here.

We have materials in the back
we'd love for you to pick up,

and of course, if you
want us to pray with you

or talk to you about
friends, or about yourself,

we'd be more than
happy to do that.

God bless you all, we love you.

- When I go out, I have
a street ministry now,

where I go and minister
to the gay community.

I meet them where they're at.

That's where God has put me at.

And I got out and share what
God has done in my life.

I don't go out
with condemnation.

Because I was right
where these people are,

where they've been.

But see, I can share...

They connect with me
'cause I start sharing

about the things in
my childhood, and
there's a connection.

- [Bill] Right.

- And see, they may think;

well, I was born this way.

But as I start to show them
that no one's born that way.

It is 100% environmental.

- [Bill] Right.

- I share the things in my past,

they can relate with some
of the things I'm saying.

And that's what
brings the connection.

- [Bill] When you say
you go where there at...

- That's right.

- [Bill] What does that mean?

- Cruise areas on Long Island.

Park and rides on Long
Island where people carpool

during the day, but
into the city at night.

They're filled with
men driving around,

looking to have a
sexual encounter.

- God keeps bringing to me,
people in the lifestyle.

- [Joanne] Oh.

- Constantly.

I'm in retail, and my
heart is like, I love them.

Every friend, I even have
my niece is in lifestyle

and I believe in
God for her freedom.

So I'm just hearing
these testimonies,

I'm totally encouraged.

'Cause I'm like...

- [Joanne] That's great.

- Lord, I know so many of
them, they know the Lord.

- Henry Savant came in
once and I told him there.

I told him what I was doing,
he pulled up next to me.

And he asked me, cause most
people are in the vehicle,

but I like to be
outside the vehicle.

And I told him, I said; I'm
a minister of the gospel,

and I used to come
into these places.

I've been delivered
from homosexuality.

He just looks at me; okay.

- [Bill] That's a new one.

(laughing)

- He's like; alright.

That was a new one, I don't
think he ever heard it before.

- [Joanne] Whatever you say.

- Right, whatever you say, okay.

- Maybe about the time
I was 16, 17 years old.

Not that I would have
identified as gay,

but I was allowing
men to use my body

for sexual satisfaction.

The man who was to be my life
partner, I met when I was 18.

I was in a cruising
area one night walking.

He was in his car,
he picked me up.

We met, we had sex.

We met again, and we met again,

and then we decided
that we were in love.

You might find another person
who's doing the same thing

who you can hook up with.

You might find another couple

who are in the process of
having sex with one another

that will invite
you to join them.

It wasn't all the unusual
of a thing, either.

The way I worked is I would
walk among these paths

and back through
the woods, here.

On a nice summer day,
there's quite a few men

that are also
walking back there.

If you saw someone who you
think is interesting to you,

you might step into the woods

and see if he follows
you, or vice versa.

Someone may step into the
woods in front of you,

and you might follow them.

- [Bill] So it's
mostly nonverbal?

I mean the communication?

- Oh absolutely, yeah, yeah.

Very little conversation.

In the parking lots there's
a lot of conversation,

but back here, there's
very little conversation.

When you're living the lifestyle
the way I was living it,

you're never quite sure
whether people know or not.

There was no reason
to discuss it.

I was never quite sure
what the story was.

People knew that I
lived with another man.

And people assumed what
they wanted to assume.

Whether it's healthy
or not, it happens.

And if that's considered
unhealthy, that's unfortunate,

but that's what the truth is.

Absolutely, because there
are, and I know a few people

who swear that the
whole promiscuity thing

is a myth and it doesn't exist.

- [Bill] Cruise and
have 10 partners,

did you cruise
and have hundreds?

I mean, is it possible?

- The number would be hundreds.

(birds chirping)

(car honking)

- One of the things that
I perceive from hearing

people speak who have gone
to reparative therapists,

people who are parts
of the ex gay movement,

many of the people in
those who wind up seeking

that treatment, I can ascertain,

have had complicated lives.

It's one thing to say;

I have difficulty
forming relationships.

It's another thing to say
that everybody who's gay

has difficulty
forming relationships.

We're getting into the
realm of stereotyping.

So again, we get down to the
specifics of the individual

who seems to define
their gay life

in a certain sexualized way,

in a certain self
destructive way.

And then they say;

well this is what all
gay people are like.

I think that's rather grandiose.

- [Bill] Excellent.

- Okay.

- [Bill] Good start.

Thank you, Doctor.

- Not at all, thank you.

You got my blood
boiling. (laughing)

- [Bill] Did we?

- A little bit, yeah.

- I view the larger culture,

mainstream America,
as hoodwinked.

It's the emperors new clothes.

You know the story of
the emperors new clothes.

The emperors out naked,
walking down the street

and everybody has
come to believe that

the emperor has to
have clothes on him.

And no one's
willing to speak up.

I think our larger
society has just swallowed

what they've been taught in the
media, as they typically do.

Those who I see as fascist,
are the people who say;

there is one way to be, and
there is one way to think.

And we are the ones
who are gonna tell you

what that way is.

And that way is, that if you
have homosexual feelings,

you're gay, and if you're
gay, you were born that way.

Despite the fact that there's
really little or no evidence

to suggest that, this
is the way it is.

And you must think that way.

In fact, we are gonna pass laws

to ensure that you don't
think any other way.

Does that not sound like Nazism?

Does that not sound
fascism to you?

- Matheson certainly is someone

that we recommend
a lot of people to.

In fact, David is a person
I helped recruit here.

Basically, 90% of his client
base or Jonah Clients.

My name is Arthur Goldberg.

I am the co founder and
co director of Jonah,

which stand for Jews Offering

New Alternative
to Homosexuality.

I'm also the president of Path,

which is simply a
coalition of the various

secular and faith
based ministries.

I'm also the executive
secretary of NARTH,

which is the primary scientific

and research arm
of the movement.

I'm also involved as an
advisory board member

of the German Institute
of Youth and Society.

And also on the
advisory board of PFOX,

and a number of
other organizations.

I'm very deeply involved
in the movement.

- But it wasn't until
I was about 22, 23

that I finally put together
that what I was feeling

toward other men, and my
masturbation fantasies,

meant that I could be
homosexual if I wanted to.

I remember the day very clearly

when I finally
decided to push it.

I finally thought,
you know what,

I'm going to actually masturbate
and fantasize about a guy,

fantasize that I'm
having sex with a guy

and let's just see
what that's like.

And it was exciting,
it was pleasurable.

At that moment, I realized
I could be homosexual

if I wanted to.

I never felt obligated to be.

Let me clarify, people
are not born gay, period,

end of discussion.

No one is born gay anymore than
anyone is born heterosexual.

I'm denying the existence of
gay biology, that's different.

I don't deny the
existence of gay identity,

but I absolutely deny the
existence of gay biology.

- Nobody is a
homosexual by identity.

It is a human problem
like any other

human problem that people have.

- The implicit belief within

the gay and lesbian civil
rights movement is that

homosexuality is inborn,
that people are born gay.

By which they mean
that it is immutable,

meaning that they cannot change.

That is something that is out
there in the popular culture,

on both side of
the culture wars.

And that is the way the
argument is being framed.

- [Bill] Is that
where the science is?

- The science, well the
science is not clear.

The science doesn't provide us

with definitive
answers at this point.

The science, anybody
reputable would say;

there's enough science
to make a convincing case

that biology plays some
role in the development

of a sexual orientation.

But what role
biology plays verses

what role the environment
plays, that's unknown.

- Well absolutely, it's part
of the multicultural movement.

Multicultural movement
really, has got to take into

consideration that religion
is a very deeply felt,

and for some people,
unchangeable part of identity.

And, if I may, in my case
my religious identity

trumped my sexual orientation.

There was no way I was
going to accept gay.

It just wasn't going to happen.

- [Bill] Are you
straight like me?

You know what I mean?

- I don't know.

- [Bill] I know you don't know.

But you know the question.

- I know what the
question means.

- [Bill] Okay.

- And I'll give you the answer.

- [Bill] Okay.

- I don't care.

- [Bill] Okay.

- I don't need to be.

I'm as straight as I need to be.

In fact, I'm probably
a little more straight

than I need to be.

(crowd chattering)

- [Parade Announcer]
LGBT Africanites.

- Well, I think
they're misguided.

I think that they
should just let people

live the way they want to live.

I guess if people
are really uptight

and come from areas
where they can't live

openly gay lifestyles, and
that's what they want to do,

I think that would be fine.

But I don't think it would
be fine for other people

to tell them they
have to do that.

- They have no concept
of what Christianity is.

They wouldn't know
a teaching of Christ

if it hit them in the face.

- [Bill] Have you ever heard

of these ex gay ministries,

the folks that say they
can change homosexuals?

- Yes.

- [Bill] What do you
think of those folks?

- Can I curse? (laughing)

- [Bill] Please.

- They're full of shit.

They're the biggest
hypocrites on Earth,

the biggest hypocrites.

Because they're preaching
that they could change us,

and that's all publicity.

That's all for them to get
money, that's a load of crap.

Those who criticize us,
and complain about us,

are the ones who
really need the help,

and really need the
Lord, like they say.

Because I'm happy with myself.

- They're very misguided

and they do a lot
of harm, actually.

- [Bill] Where do you
think they're coming from?

- Ignorance.

Probably some of well intended

from their own point of view,

from what they were raised with.

They don't have all the facts,

and they're relying
on stereotypes.

(whistle blowing)

(gospel music)

(applauding)

- I looked everywhere
in the Bible

for some approval
of homosexuality.

I didn't want it
to be what it was.

But, I couldn't
find anything else.

Every mention of homosexuality
was accompanied by

a stern warning, it
wasn't a light one.

You will not inherit
the kingdom of God,

is in First Corinthians,
chapter six.

(birds chirping)

(background chattering)

- My name is Peterson Toscano.

I live in Hartford, Connecticut,

and I identify as queer.

I like the term queer

because it's more
than just gay to me.

And I definitely identify
as an ex gay survivor.

I survived over 17
years, and $30,000

of my time and money
in trying to change

from being gay to straight.

But I often have
to ask the question

when people say;
is change possible?

My question is; why
is is necessary?

Why is change necessary?

Why isn't it just as good
to say; let's be gay.

(birds chirping)

And if change is possible,

why is it so elusive?

They had Saturday night
meetings at Glad Tidings Church.

I was impressed
in that, was like;

wow, she knows what
she's talking about.

Because she spoke
with such authority

about what makes people gay,
about God can change you.

She had faith, and hope, and
very powerful personality.

If you asked me then,
it would be like;

well, because I'm a Christian.

And that seemed to be the
only answer I needed to give.

Hello, I'm a Christian
so I've got to repent

of being gay 'cause
that's wrong.

But looking back, I realize
this resonated with me

because I had been
sexually abused as a child.

And I had never acknowledged
that it even was abuse.

So it wasn't just that
I'd been sexually abused,

but I just assumed I
was this demon child

that wanted, that
enjoyed sex with adults

simply because these
situations were thrust upon me.

And they were enjoyable.

And they were
terrible, all in one.

And they were things I
never told anybody about.

(birds chirping)

And so I just assumed I was a
dirty, bad, perverted person.

And I grew up with that
sense of who I was,

this nasty, perverted,
spoiled person.

That I was broken inside.

So when I started
hearing the message

that Jesus can wash
away all your sins,

he'll make you whiter than snow,

he can make you a new creature.

If any man be in Christ Jesus,

he is a new creature.

Behold, all things
have gone away.

All things have been made new.

For someone feeling
like a piece of trash,

like I was feeling, that was
a powerful, powerful message.

And I considered myself ex gay,

and I tried very
hard to be celibate.

And the thing is,
in the ex gay world

you can have what's
called a fall.

Which is bad and
wrong, but you repent.

And it's your heart
that's most important.

So although there were many
of us, I'd say most of us,

were falling left and
right almost every week,

it was your heart, like;
but I don't want to do this.

I wanna serve God, I
wanna figure out why
I keep doing this.

And that kept you
in a place where

you were safe in that community,

'cause you were a struggler.

(background chattering)

And sometimes it was even
with people in Life Ministry

I was having sex with.

You couldn't tell Joanne

that you kept
screwing up every week

unless you wanted to
open yourself up to

some serious ministry with her.

You know, Joanne
Highly, I'm not sure

what sort of degree she has,
but you're dealing with people

in extreme trauma trying
to sort out their lives

and who they are, and you
don't know what you're doing.

You're trusting
God and the Bible.

Which is a lovely thing
to do for certain things,

but when you're dealing with
psychosis and addiction,

family dysfunction,
or your assumptions

that these things exist,
you run the real risk

of hurting somebody deeply.

(cars passing)

- Well, at the time I was
in a long term relationship

and my partner died.

After he passed, the
first thing I did was,

I said; well, I'm gonna go
back into the active lifestyle.

I wanted to meet another person

and I didn't know
how to do that.

And so, one of the options
that was on my calendar

was to go to a gay bar.

So, I came here.

And I came the
first time and had,

well, what for me was an
unpleasant experience.

Everyone was friendly
and everything,

but in terms of
making a connection

it was obvious that that
wasn't gonna happen.

I became very obvious to me,

from where I was, was that the
men that I was interested in

weren't interested in me.

- [Bill] You mean that

it's that you weren't
young and pretty?

- Yeah.

I have a button, I should
have showed it to you,

I have a button that says;

I was once young and
pretty, but I got over it.

(laughing)

And in trying to re evaluate
my life after his death,

I looked for religion.

And as I looked for
religion, I first went to

the Catholic group
called Dignity.

And after, oh I guess
about two years with them,

maybe a little bit
less than that,

I discovered a group
called Courage, (sirens)

which is the group for men
with same sex attraction

that's sanctioned
by the Vatican.

And again now, they
provide, among other things,

a venue where like minded
men can get together

and meet for socialization
and other activities.

And I met a man at
that very first meeting

who became my mentor.

He's been my mentor ever since.

And one of the first
things he did, is he said;

I want you to come
with me to a meeting

at Jonah in Jersey City.

There's a man
named Richard Cohen

who's giving a one
day conference there.

He's a man who has a
record of converting,

whatever the word
is you wanna do,

changing men from
gay to straight.

And I said; yeah, sure.

That was something that
was so foreign to me that

I just couldn't imagine that
someone could actually change

their orientation
from gay to straight.

I believed that you
could live a chaste life,

but that you would ever
identify otherwise,

that was not on my agenda.

But I went to this conference.

(water sloshing)

This is The Case
Museum in Jersey City.

It's a museum that
features Jewish art.

It's also a place
that headquarters the
Jonah organization.

(footsteps walking)

- [Bill] And so again,
this is the room?

- This is the room.

- [Bill] And what
happened here again?

- Richard Cohen lead
a one day conference.

There were about 40 to
50 people in this room.

I sat, about over here
with my hands in my lap,

scared to death, and
heard people talk about

what change meant in their life.

- [Bill] Why were
you scared to death?

- Didn't know why I was here.

Didn't believe that change
was really possible.

And this is the room
where my change started.

- The speakers were here,

and people were set up
there, on the audience.

We had chairs like this,

set up there in the
main art gallery room.

- [Bill] Okay, and
the speaker was?

- Speaker was Richard Cohen.

- [Bill] And Richard Cohen is?

- Richard Cohen is one of
the leading therapists,

a very controversial therapist,

but one of the
leading therapists

in terms of healing
of homosexuality.

He has given up actually doing

individual private practice now,

and instead he basically
teaches other therapists

various techniques that
have worked for him.

He himself is a person who
came out of homosexuality,

probably 20, 25 years ago,
I'm not sure exactly how long,

and is really one of the
more innovative types

in terms of (phone ringing)
therapy procedures that he uses,

and that kind of thing.

- [Film Narrator] Public
restrooms can often

(1960s theme music)

be a hangout for the homosexual.

Bobby and his friends
hadn't noticed the man

who had been in the
restroom when they changed.

And as it was later suggested,

they take the shortcut
under the pier.

But the others preferred to
take the more traveled way home.

(suspenseful music)

When Bobby recognized
the stranger

as the man in the restroom,

the shortcut under the pier

didn't seem like a
good idea at all.

(birds chirping)

- Say hi to tv land.

- Hi.

- [Bill] How long
have you been married?

- 23,000 years.

(laughing)

And it doesn't feel
like a day over 28.

So simple science demonstrates
that opposites attract.

If you have a positive
charge and a negative charge,

I have actually magnets in the
garage, it works really good.

(laughing)

- [Bill] Shall we get them?

- Yeah, you want me to get it?

- [Bill] Yes, please.

- Actually, I was a
little put off by Richard.

Not because he was so
extravagant and exuberant,

but one of the first
things he announced

at the beginning of
this conference was that

if we had any questions,
we had to address them

to Arthur Goldberg.

We couldn't ask him
a question directly.

We had to ask
Arthur, and then...

And I thought, this is,
this guy's a little weird.

- We have a south and a north,

and a north and a south.

What's gonna happen?

- [Bill] Opposites attract.

(click)

- They love each other.

They love it baby, they love it.

Okay, let's flip this around.

We got two north and two south,

what's gonna happen?

- [Bill] Repel.

- Waa, waa, waa,
waa, you know that.

They just can't do it.

Okay, so why is a guy
attracted to a guy

if opposites attract?

Because he doesn't
feel his guyness.

He's looking to
complete himself.

If he felt masculine,
he would say;

Ew, hooking up with a guy?

It's a non sequential.

But, he's internally more
feminine that masculine.

So he needs that
guy to complete him.

Once you give him his
sense of masculinity back,

or once he gets
in touch with it.

He gets in touch with
himself, he knows who he is,

he gets other men, he knocks
around, he feels good.

He's internalized that
paternal and fraternal sense.

Hey, look at her.

Cause opposite attract. (click)

- [Bill] So your initial
reaction to Richard was?

- That he was eccentric.

(laughing)

- I think he was a member of

the American
Counseling Association

until he was dismissed
for unethical behavior.

That's what I've heard.

- [Bill] Okay.

- I'm not an expert on
Richard Cohen. (laughing)

Well, he doesn't have
to prove his theory

that the cause of
homosexuality is

the difficulty with
intimacy with other men.

He simply gets to do his theory

without having to prove it.

This is so far out of the
mainstream, it's on Mars.

- [Bill] I mean, does...

- Out of this world.

- My Courage friends, they all;

Richard Cohen, be very careful.

And it's generally
around his idea

about touch therapy,
that whole concept.

And I've spoken to men that feel

they've been hurt
by touch therapy.

I've spoken to
other men that think

it's the best thing that
ever happened to them.

(laughing)

- That's the guy touch
is this thing. (slapping)

- [Female] That
is the guy touch.

- Now just, like there.

- Like this?

- Uh huh.

- Okay.

- See, what don't
need to. (slapping)

I'm not coming on to you, Bill.

(laughing)

- Is this a come on move?

- No, no, but this
is kind like...

- Oh, that's the
I'm not gay move.

- Yeah, I'm not gay and
let's not be too close.

- Oh, I got it.

- Yeah.

- Okay.

- Not you get to do
it better with him.

- Yeah.

- It's just this.

- Yeah.

- [Female] Lots of love.

- Okay.

- Right.

- [Female] See, girls don't
have a problem with that.

- [Richard] Yeah, right.

Guys are afraid.

- [Female] They are.

- [Richard] 'Cause they've
been punished for it.

You're a sissy, you're a fag,
you know, on the playground.

- We have a rule in most of
the circles that I sit in

that you can only
participate in male touch

if there has to be at least
three people in the room.

The two people touching
and another person.

Just because psychologically
you know there's somebody there

but also physically,
that is something

gets out of hand there's
somebody there to say stop.

- We really don't
want to have any

unnecessary aggravation.

And also, a lot of the
men who are involved

in the healing
processes really are

not anxious to have other
people know who they are.

- Alright.

I gotta even push
it further on this

'cause I'm curious.

I mean, what are
you afraid of...

- I'll get you copies of that.

- Okay, thank you.

- You're afraid of... (bang)

I was getting somewhere.

You're afraid that people
are gonna picket you?

Or people, or what
are you afraid of?

- We're concerned, yeah, the
gay activists certainly have,

can make things difficult
for people who wanna heal.

This is a civil rights issue
as far as we're concerned,

from the viewpoint of people
who are eager to make changes.

- [Bill] You're not
gonna sue me, right?

- You're not gonna...

Yeah.

Actually, what I normally
do, I actually have a form

I should give you,
but I trust you.

But normally I have
a form that says;

I wanna see what
you're quoting me as

in order for my
stuff to be done.

- [Bill] Does anyone sign that?

- Yeah.

Yeah, the guy trembling
before God did,

and that's how I was
able to make sure

that he quoted me correctly.

- [Bill] Huh.

- Because was happened
was, he took one sentence.

I said; no, no, no, that's
not the sentence that I want.

So he took another, so
we had another sentence.

- [Bill] Interesting.

I'm after the truth, Arthur.

- No, no, I understand.

I believe you.

And that's why I'm, you know.

- [Bill] You literally
received death threats?

- Literally received
death threats.

My family would get
calls cussing out my wife

and my kids, if they
answered the phone.

And told us; we'll
burn your house down.

I spoke in Manhattan
one time, they said;

if you stand up and speak
tonight, we will shoot you.

I have had my literature,

which was next to
me during the talks,

a group of lesbians
in Seattle came up

to the table while
I was speaking,

took all my brochures
and destroyed them.

And after the talk I
went up to one of them.

I remember her
name, she was Susan.

I asked her her name.

I said; you must be
very hurt, aren't you?

And she went (spitting)
right in my face.

So if you don't think
that's a hurt puppy.

- No, no.

Other's have, people
don't know we're here yet.

That may change when
this is on the air,

but people don't
know we're here,

so we don't get any trouble.

- I believe very, very strongly

that this issue, in terms
of the ex gay movement

as it's called, is a
civil rights issue.

That this is an issue in
which we need to give rights,

and the right of
patient determination,

the right of freedom of choice

to individuals who
want to change.

And I am very, very
upset about the,

I actually even call
it almost fascistic

type of mentality we have
that the ex gay doesn't exist,

there's no such
thing as an ex gay.

John Sterback, who
you've interviewed,

is clear example of of ex gay,

someone who found it
unsatisfactory to him.

That the life
didn't work for him.

And we have many
people like that.

I came into contact with this
in several different ways,

and they're some members
of my family that

are involved in it with
same sex attraction issues.

There are friends that I have

with same sex attraction issues.

- [Bill] I thought
this was your son,

from our previous interview.

- Yeah, but I usually don't
talk about that publicly.

I don't want to embarrass him,

and we've approved for
that not being on the tape.

- [Bill] Okay, so who else?

- That's why I said my family.

- [Bill] That's what I thought.

I thought we discussed your son.

- Yeah, it is my son, but
my son doesn't usually

like to be publicly identified
with the issue that much.

So I try to ...

- [Bill] Was it
anyone else or was...

- I've got some niece...

I've got a cousin
who's a lesbian.

My wife has a couple
of gay relative.

So there are several
in the family. (laughs)

- I am a heterosexual man

who struggles with
same sex attraction.

Well, I believe that all men
are born as heterosexuals

and through whatever
wounds they go through,

even in childhood or
puberty, or as young adults,

there's confusion that comes in.

And that confusion
results, for some men,

with same sex attraction.

With others it might
come out as alcoholism,

or wife abuse, or drug abuse,

or people who just are too shy

to even open their
mouths some days.

Four years ago I self
identified as a gay man.

- [Bill] You today are changed?

- I have greatly diminished
same sex attraction.

I still have same
sex attraction.

Maybe I always will, but
I don't lust after men.

- I came out to my parents

and I had suppressed who I was

from the time I reached puberty,
and a little before that,

until I was 17 and came out,

and finally at 18 to my parents.

So I had gone many
years trying to hide

and change who I was.

And the first thing my
parents brang up, practically,

was; why don't
you try to change?

Which was, to me, maddening.

I was just mortified.

And I said, vowed, that if
I ever have an opportunity

in my life, to make sure no
one has to go through that

humiliation again, I was
gonna do something about it.

And that episode has driven
my activism to this day.

In the process of writing my
book, Anything But Straight,

I went undercover, I
went to big conferences,

both right wing conferences
and ex gay conferences.

Sometimes I would go as myself.

Other times I
would go undercover

and change up the hair
a little bit, glasses.

It worked for Clark Kent,

figured it could
work for me, right?

And in the process I
learned quite a bit.

The ex gays go on television

or talk to mainstream
audiences with a big happy face

and fuzzy language, but
you go behind the scenes

and it's a lot of talk about

Satan, demons, and
spiritual warfare.

In fact, many, many
people have been through

these exorcisms where
they try to extract

the demon of homosexuality.

They believe homosexuality,
in many cases, is demonic.

They love to show you,
they love to talk about

how change is possible, they
don't want to show you how.

'Cause that turns off
mainstream America

because the methods
go everything

from the bizarre to
demon extraction.

(traffic passing)

- One of the reasons why I
pulled away from Life Ministries

after a couple years
was specifically

after a counseling
session with Joanne.

And I was dealing with
issues, struggling,

still having problems like
almost everyone in the ministry

was having problems.

And so I went to her for
some one on one counseling,

but we sat, it was so strange,

we met in her apartment,
which wasn't strange

'cause it was kind of an office.

But for our counseling session,
we went into the bedroom.

(background talking)

And we sat on the bed,

and she started
telling me her theories

about how gay people become gay.

And that by having sex,
demons enter various parts,

they enter from areas
where you have sex.

And that, she said we
need to take those demons

out of those places.
(opera singing)

But it was so intimate,
and it was so invasive.

It was so personal, and
in a very personal space,

her personal space, that
if felt like abuse to me.

And it was from that
point on, I drew the line

and I started not
getting as involved

in Life Ministries, because
I felt really weirded out

by the whole thing.

(cars honking)

- Twenty years ago
I chose to quit

my first high school
English teaching internship

when two ninth
grade boys picked up

on the evil, sexual
desires in my heart.

And they'd torment me
mercilessly for sport.

The afternoon I
submitted my resignation

I sat in my car
in the parking lot

of a Jacksonville, Florida
mall, and I wept bitterly

for my miserable,
hateful existence.

- Again, if your
peers abused you,

or made fun of you, or
somehow you told yourself

that you were less
than a robust boy

because you didn't play sports.

Or, they call them
kitchen window boys,

have you ever heard that
expression? (children playing)

- [Bill] No

- The boy who sits in his
mother's kitchen window

and looks out, and
watches the other boys

playing ball and wishes
he was with them.

It creates this longing.

- In the seventh
grade locker room,

they've all got pubic hair.

I don't have any yet.

They're big and
muscular, I'm not.

In his mind at least.

So these are biological things

that could predispose this
boy to feel incongruent.

Or could predispose
him to have difficulty

affiliating with the other boys.

So, father was an
unpredictable, angry man.

Loving sometimes, but
unpredictable and angry.

And there were some
things that happened

that really weren't his fault.

For example there was a murder
suicide in our neighborhood.

Another father killed his
family, killed himself.

I transferred that
onto my father.

I was convinced my dad was
gonna do that same thing.

- Well, their pattern of
therapy is entirely based

on a very skewed
environmental view.

Most of the people who
practice these treatments,

first of all, they
say they do know

what causes homosexuality.

That they know something that
the rest of us don't know.

Two, they also say that
the biology is meaningless,

and they tend to dismiss any
biological contributions.

Most of them, there's
a couple of exceptions.

And three, they say that
because it is environmental,

what is environmental
can be changed.

You inculcate in the
patient, a new theory.

You have to learn
the patients here.

This is actually true of
many psycho therapies.

In my field, in psychoanalysis,
we have Freudians,

we have Kleinians,
we have Kohutians.

And everybody reports
cases in which the patients

say things in their analysis

that reflects some theoretical
belief of the analyst.

So everybody's theory
is always being

proven true in their
respective literatures.

(birds chirping)

(car driving)

- Yeah, Love In Action went a
lot of different directions.

I was surprised there was
much less Bible and prayer

than I'd ever had before in
any other ex gay ministry.

Life Ministry was almost
all about Bible study,

and prayer, and worship,
and spiritual things.

But Love In Action
was much more based

on a 12 step model.

You are subject to all
sorts of charlatans.

It's humiliating, but the
desperation was so high

that you would do anything.

- He never got involved with
girls or anything like that.

All the girls from the
pub, from Manhattan mostly,

they all fell in
love with my son.

So he didn't want
to go out with them.

I says; my God, she's
Czechoslovakian,
beautiful woman,

17 years old, a
mountain of love.

(laughing)

I says; you can't find
no likens for her?

He says; well, I don't like her.

I said; well, I like her.

(laughing)

My wife had a lot
of hopes for him

and he feels bad
that he ain't gonna

have a grandson for me.

I says; you do whatever
you have to do.

Don't worry about nothing.

Some of them, they had
that kind of an idea

that it had something
to do with the parents.

But I feel that whoever's born,

whatever way they're
born, is fine.

Yeah, they kept telling me that
he's gonna be squared away,

he's fine, and he's this.

And meanwhile, the
instructor himself,

he was off the wall himself.

I don't think he every
straightened himself.

He said he straightened
himself out,

but I don't think he did.

- [Bill] So you could tell
that by looking at him?

- Well, sure.

I mean, you know,
when you see a woman

you get shook up when
you get certain women

that could shake a man up.

- [Bill] Right.

- But this guy didn't get
shook up too fast, you know.

I tell ya, I didn't really
care too much for the way

their system was working.

You know, with the
sittin down for hours

and talkin, and talkin.

It didn't amount
to a hill of beans.

They want money, but what
do they want money for?

If they're doing something,

I see givin em
whatever they want.

5,000/2,000, whatever.

But why give em money for
something they're not doing?

So they finally told me that
I was completely out of order.

I says; no, I'm
not out of order.

You people are out of order.

I mean, you taking
money for something

that you're not gonna do.

If a zebra got stripes,

you gonna take the
stripes off the zebra?

He was born with them
stripes, and that's it.

So, they didn't
like me at all then.

Yeah, I didn't make no big
hit down there, you know.

- So you go to Catholic
church once a week?

- Yeah, every Sunday morning.

- Every Sunday morning?

- Yeah.

Our winter time is 8:30 mass.

In the summer time it's 9:00.

- She's the only woman
friend that I have.

I mean, I know women from
church and things like that.

But she's the only person I
would really call a friend.

(turn signal blinking)

She's always been there for me.

I never thought of it.

It was a friendship that
just grew over the years

and got deeper and deeper.

(wind blowing)

- I saw John, and I
hope it was temporary,

become some ape who seemed
joyful, at least on the outside,

and we were kicking each
other under the table

and seeing the ludicrous,
and mixing with people.

And I saw him become
very serious and solemn.

And seemed to lose
his joy in life.

I don't know if that was
because of Richard's death

or because of other factors.

But that is what alarmed.

- She made it clear
that she was concerned

that I might be
making a mistake.

She asked me several times

if I was sure about
what I was doing.

But also, at the same
time, assured me that

she would be there as
a friend if I thought

that I needed
someone to talk to.

- I was frankly afraid
that if he did not succeed,

he might attempt suicide.

I was terrified.

I thought to myself;

why don't people leave
other people alone?

And I thought if
he didn't make it,

that it would be a disaster.

And I worried, and I worried.

I was also afraid of
his becoming cultist.

- [Bill] You're telling
me he seemed happier

back when he was gay?

- Yeah.

- [Bill] Okay.

Fair enough.

(Gospel Music)

(applauding)

- Can I hear an amen?

- [Audience] Amen.

- And everything that has
breath, say hallelujah.

- [Audience] Hallelujah.

- One more time.

- [Audience] Hallelujah.

(applauding)

- We must cooperate with
God's grace by resisting sin

with all our soul, in
heart, in strength, in mind.

But truly I can step into
a gay bar for a drink.

I'm struggling
with not to cruise.

Lie.

- I just knew I'd been sick
for a number of months.

Meaning, very weak.

Being in bed, sometimes
having to crawl

on the floor because
of being so weak.

Going to doctors, finding
nothing's wrong with me.

And yet, that they could detect,

but yet still sick,
weak, debilitated.

And as I kept going in

trying to discover
what's wrong with me,

'cause I was a
professional singer.

My body was my instrument.

Therefore, I was incapacitated.

And I had a lot of
time to sit and think.

And God could speak to me then.

And he told me some
interesting things.

He told me he was
going to heal me.

It was not an audible
voice, but it knew as surely

as I'm sitting here,
that it was not me.

And I knew it was God.

The Lord was doing
something in our lives

that we couldn't stop.

It was that he was drawing
us to this apartment,

in this particular location.

Because he wanted us to
minister to the people

that he wanted to draw to him.

Here, this particular
area, we are called

to the west side of midtown,
New York City, Manhattan.

- The devil roams the world 24/7

like a prowling lion
seeking who he may devour.

And make no mistake,
he wants to devour

everyone in this room.

- If you read the
testimonies of many ex gays

you see things such
as visions and voices

that appear to me
they need to get out

of these phony ex gay therapies,

and get some real,
serious, professional help.

Maybe a psychiatrist
or a team of shrinks,

but please, they need somebody
to look at their disorders.

We see everything from

depression to possible
schizophrenia.

And instead of
addressing the real issue

they're told to blame
their sexual orientation.

It's quite sad, and
a little bit tragic.

- One of the reasons
that we're still married

is because of our faith.

Because of our strong,
spiritual grounding

because God's a
part of our family.

Absolutely, absolutely,
that's the pivot point.

- I mean, the religion is me,
it's in my DNA to have faith.

From the time I was
a little, tiny, kid.

- I married a guy
who was struggling

with same sex attraction.

I mean, after I became
more educated about it,

after we got married, after
the whole thing started going,

same sex attraction is the
way that we have looked at it.

That's that way I look at it.

Because to identify himself as
gay, or homosexual, he's not.

He never has been.

- Before we got married, I
believed it would go away,

that the same sex
would kind of go away,

or wouldn't really be an
issue if I got married.

It's not that
anyone told me that,

cause I hadn't talk
to anybody about it.

But I just kind of assumed

that it would be that big of
a deal, wouldn't be an issue.

And so, I went into the
marriage, got married,

and the feelings weren't really

that big of a deal for awhile.

- David and I met in
a film history class

at Brigham Young University.

He was a film major

and I was a musical
theater major.

We were such good friends,

that when he went to
kiss me the first time,

I was like; oh no, you're
not gonna kiss me are you?

And that's not really
what I meant to say,

but this trait in him has
been a real saving grace

for our marriage.

And instead of being
offended with that

he just looked at me, and
took my hand and said;

well yes, is that
alright with you?

And I was like; sure.

So he kissed me, and from
there we were married

very shortly after that.

- I wasn't drawn
to her at first.

She was just kinda this
interesting girl in class.

And then we did an
assignment together,

and it was while we were
doing this assignment.

The assignment was to do
this little skit together,

this play from some 18th
century, 18th century play.

So we did it, and I realized

that I really was
interested in her.

I can see that I had some
degree of normal attraction

toward her, but very blunted.

Meaning it was semi
attraction to her.

I realized she was beautiful,

I realized she was interesting.

She was intriguing
and fun, all of that.

But as I look back, I
realize the attraction wasn't

what my male peers were
probably feeling toward

the girls that they
were going out with.

It was far less, because
now, all these years later,

I have a much more full
heterosexual attraction.

And I realize how diminished
my attraction was at the time.

- Yeah, he told me a year
after we were married.

I knew something wasn't quite
right when we got married,

but I knew he was
the right man for me.

I felt, I was really,
really sure about that.

I just deeply loved him, and
felt deeply connected to him,

and I just knew it
was the right thing.

But he did tell me
about a year after,

well, within the first
year after we got married.

He said that, and
I just took it in.

He said something
like, and I don't know

if this is an exact
quote, like again,

it's been a long time, but
he said something like;

I need to tell you something,

and actually I was
sitting on the steps

going to the upper
floor of the apartment.

And he said...

I don't know if he said; I
think I'm attracted to men.

Or I think I'm dealing
with homosexuality.

He said something like that.

I think it was more like;

I realize that I'm
attracted to men.

And, I wasn't shocked.

I wasn't even
necessarily surprised.

- When is a good time
to tell your wife that?

But I found the
best time I could

and told her about it.

I remember her crying,
but it wasn't crying like;

what did you do to me?

It was crying compassionately.

I'm sure that there was
some fear and some hurt,

but that's not really
what she lead with

in the way she responded to me.

It was much more of a
compassionate understanding,

I want to help you.

There was some fear too.

But her response was
really wonderful.

- There has been a lot of pain.

Because what causes
pain is distance.

Is that, really, you know.

So that had been some
incredibly painful times

in our marriage.

There was only one
time in our marriage,

of all the years that
we've been dealing with it,

not that I ever
thought it was wrong,

not that I thought
I made a mistake,

not that I ever thought that
any of that was the case,

but that he might
actually choose...

I actually, I don't know
how much you want, but,

I actually told him, I said;

you either change
this or you leave.

So, I said; I can't do this.

And he was upset
'cause he was like;

well, what about the kids?

I said; well, you'll
have to tell the kids.

- I mean, what I really wanted,
even from the time I was,

probably even at the
time I was 21, 22, 23,

when I first realized it,
I wanted to have kids.

I wanted to have a family.

And then by the time I
started dealing with it,

six or so years later,

by then I had kids.

And I never wanted to
do anything really,

other than be their
father and her husband.

What would we have,
another broken marriage,

a wife with a heart broken,
me with a heart broken.

Because I would miss her.

I'd never be able
to make up for that.

And three kids
with hearts broken.

Now do we need more of
that in our society?

- So he would say to me; I'm
really attracted to this guy.

And he was in a
group that he was...

- [Bill] He'd tell you that?

- Yeah.

- [Bill] Wow.

- He'd tell me that.

So he was really honest with me.

There were times
when I would just sit

and take a deep breath in.

And go, okay, what
am I gonna hear now?

- And I did a lot crazier stuff

than look at pornography.

And she is an unbelievably
intuitive person.

And she caught me
without catching me.

Something just told her;
he's looking at pornography.

And she just straight out
asked me, I'm like; yeah.

Does that answer the question?

- Yeah see, that's
their judgment.

He suppressed it.

But I can tell you
from experience,

if my husband was
suppressing it, I would know.

I would know if he suppressed
it long enough, I would know.

- I can so deeply understand
why a gay person is gay.

I can so easily and completely
understand that choice.

- [Bill] 'Cause you can relate?

- Huh?

- [Bill] 'Cause you can relate?

- I can absolutely relate.

I understand the choice.

I can even understand
why a person

from a religious
background would choose

homosexuality over
their religion.

I can understand that.

A slightly different
personality, I might
have gone there.

I'm glad I didn't because
the rewards of where I am now

are really high.

I'm very happy with where I am.

- Well honestly, because...

From my perspective...

He's grown so spiritually
connected to God.

A lot of our years being married

have been me being the
spiritually strong one.

And saying whatever.

And he's now really stepped
into that more and more.

He really, I see him initiating,

I see him seeking out God more.

I see him really
connected spiritually.

And really connected to
the core of who he is.

- The term I have to
use is ego dystonic.

Ego dystonic means
against the ego,

or against the sense of self.

Or, in other words,

a behavior that does
not resonate with

who you see yourself as being.

I've always been ego
dystonic about homosexuality.

So even though the feelings that

sometimes have been
very, very strong

to the point I was
ready to give into it,

I don't know what saved me,

even with that, it was
always ego dystonic.

It always felt like
this is not who I am.

After being in this process,

after working on
myself for 16 years,

I'm sexually attracted
to my wife still.

I have been for a long time.

And there is almost a...

I don't know if you'd
call it fortunate

or unfortunate thing
that I've discovered,

which is that I'm attracted
to other women as well.

I'm like any other guy
who has to watch his eyes

when he goes down the street

because sometimes women dress
in a way that's provocative,

and I'm attracted to them too.

- The very existence of ex gays

does put the question
of gay identity

up for debate, which
it shouldn't be.

And to me, this is as absurd as

an African American
using skin bleaching

saying that he's an
ex African American.

Any culture, any
place we have seen

a minority oppressed
for who they are,

people have tried to change.

When Jews have been
oppressed, many convert.

In places today, like
the Dominican Republic,

we still see hair straightening,
and skin bleaching.

It's very prevalent.

And we also have seen it in
a variety of other areas,

such as eye rounding for Asians

in areas where its advantageous.

This is no different.

This is the latest version

of people trying
to change to fit in

to be accepted in society.

- I chopped all
that down yesterday.

- We're gonna go to
the grave together.

He's not gonna go to
any other place, no.

There's no question.

(laughing)

We're gonna hold hands,
and we're gonna go together

up and down.

He's gonna be on top
of me. (laughing)

No, no one is gonna
be between us, no.

- [Bill] I think I just
found the sound bite.

(laughing)

- Even if anybody
is coming after him,

I'm gonna say; no, he's mine.

No way.

- [Bill] He might think,
but it aint gonna happen.

(laughing)

- He might think?

No, he doesn't think.

I know if he thinks
or not, no he's not.

- What happened then, is I
joined a religious community.

And for the next nine
years I became celibate.

I was celibate for nine years.

- [Bill] This is the
Unification Church.

- Mmmhmm, correct.

And I thought if I was
a good Christian boy,

and follow God, and study his
word, and serve other people,

that's what I was
taught, it will go away.

Well, I did, and it didn't.

And then I met my wife.

We actually knew each
other for many, many years.

We got married, and that's when

the peanut butter hit the fan.

- It was wonderful,
it's mass wedding.

It's a lot of people together.

- [Bill] Where was that?

- In New York.

- [Bill] Do you remember where?

- Madison Square Garden.

I don't understand
why you get into this.

I wanted to say; kinda stop.

- [Bill] That's alright.

I mean, you offered her,
I thought we were talking.

- [Richard Cohen] No,
I understand, but...

It's not about our
faith in church

cause that's in our past.

- [Bill] It's
about your history.

- Yeah, but you get
into it so deep.

It was almost like a cut, I
don't wanna talk about it.

- [Bill] It is context.

- Actually, you don't need
to actually put that in.

- [Bill] Just one more question

about that period of time,

if you promise not to walk away.

- It's my right.

- [Bill] It's your right,
absolutely. (laughing)

He's even written that
he was so out of control,

he thought about killing you.

- [Richard Cohen] No.

- [Bill] You didn't write that?

- [Richard Cohen] No.

- [Bill] Do I have
to find the quote?

- [Richard Cohen] Yes.

- [Bill] Okay.

You did not write that?

- [Richard Cohen] Never, no.

- [Bill] Okay.

- [Richard Cohen] 'Cause
I didn't think that.

- [Bill] Okay.

(Laughing)

You did describe
yourself as a rageaholic.

- [Richard Cohen]
Yeah, like my dad.

- It's like Beauty and
the Beast type of thing.

It was really, really
difficult for me.

- And I did a show
down with God.

And I sat there for about
an hour or two, very quiet.

And then finally a
voice spoke to me.

And it was crystal clear,
'cause I asked for it;

would you please repeat that?

(laughing)

I wanted to make sure I didn't
concoct it in my own head.

And it was very clear.

Move to Seattle, cause we
were living in Manhattan.

I lived there 12 years.

And I had my wife and
two kids at the time.

Move to Seattle, get
help for your marriage,

get an education, and reach
out and help other people.

- [Bill] Such...

- Boring, I'm not.

- [Bill] No, boring you're not.

Such specific
instructions from God,

and I mean, move to Seattle.

- Well hey, Noah, look at Noah.

Talk about specific.

- [Bill] Okay.

- I mean, that boat, man.

He got every measurement.

That was a little more specific.

- [Bill] More
specific than Seattle.

- Right. (laughing)

- All I know is they
were wonderful with us.

They helped us with
individual, couple,

and family counseling.

They were wonderful.

And they helped,
as my wife said,

they helped us just beautifully.

We saw no impropriety
when we were there.

We were not privy
to any of that.

We had no knowledge of that.

It was a wonderful, healing,

educational experience
for all of us.

- They're all counselors.

And anytime we turn
around, they can tell us

what was wrong or how
to help with holding.

I've been held a
lot, with clothes on.

Not taking clothes off, no, no.

- [Bill] No sex, no
naked sex therapy?

- I don't know what they
doing by themselves.

No, I don't think so.

No, I never saw.

But a lot of holding,
just a little grieving.

So, I grieved a lot.

- When I was going through my
healing process, initially,

before I got there, 'cause
I had gone through it

before I got there.

I wouldn't have had
to go through all the

things I didn't want to do.

But I was looking for men

who would put their
arms around me.

I didn't want sex.

And I went from person to
person, not only in Unification.

I went to other
ministries in the area.

They all thought I was
crazy, with twenty heads,

because I wanted to be held.

I'm a very kinesthetic,
demonstrative man.

And I deserved it.

And I wanted it.

And my soul needed it.

So I finally found
it, as I told you,

with some straight guy
who was willing to hold me

as I grieved, and
heaved, and shoveled out

years of pain that I had
kept in since I was a child.

I saw it naturally
happening there, with men,

big burly guys who work
in the fields everyday.

They were just so willing to
put their arms around a guy.

And that was wonderful.

And that's what I'd been
teaching ever since.

William Reich, he was a
descendant of Freud and Jung.

And Reich branched out.

And Reich started
realizing that the body

was a repository for
all archaic emotions.

Feelings buried alive never die.

They get frozen in
this cellular structure

of our physiology.

So all our history's
in our body.

In bio energetic, you
get into the body.

It's a body centered therapy.

And in doing it, you access
these repressed memories.

When I was in therapy,

that's when I found
out about sex abuse.

I was beating the crap out
of my mother, actually,

and then all of the
sudden, I mean, you know,

symbolically, (laughing)

I was beating the
crap out of mom

in the therapy sessions
through the bio energetic,

and all of the sudden a penis

starting coming
right at my face.

It was like; (soaring
noise), it was a flashback.

And it just floored me.

So I found out the
efficacy of bio energetics.

- You can tell them
(punching noises)

you always know loving of the
people who desire to change.

- One more thing,
and then I'll finish.

If you want visual aids.

- [Female] Yeah, he's
got more visual aids.

- [Bill] Oh, excellent.

- [Female] We shouldn't
stop him from doing that.

- This is what the
key, I figured out.

These are same sex
attractions, okay?

People try to pray them away.

People try to get rid
of them, whatever.

Repressed them.

Go away, go away, go away.

I hate you, I hate
you, I hate you.

Or, now people are
loving you, loving you,

embracing it, and living it.

To me that only adds
more walls of layers

of hurt and wounds.

How one can get rid of
these unwanted desires.

There's a trick. (laughing)

there's a trick.

I'm not a good magician.

But what I found is (laughing)

the wound is connected
to the desire.

As soon as you grieve the
wound of what created it,

the desire goes away.

And I'll show you the trick.

How that happens, is
there's a whole here.

(laughing)

- [Bill] Okay.

- It's amusing if it weren't

so obnoxious and offensive.

He was the president of
Parents and Friends of Ex Gays.

He was a NARTH trainer.

These big organizations
that are trying

to pass anti gay laws and try
to getting into the schools.

He was a central part of them.

So this isn't some obscure
quack that we plucked out

of the swamp somewhere
and made a fool of.

No, this is somebody
who is integral.

- When I started doing
psychiatry in 1960,

it was very common for
gay men, particularly men,

to be patients with a
goal of wanting to change

and become heterosexual.

The 1973 decision was
regarded by the gay community

as the best thing that had
happened to them in years.

I met these gay activists,
and they told me

what it meant to be gay
in American society,

and I was motivated
to be helpful,

there's no doubt about that.

And the definition of mental
disorder that I came up with,

in some way facilitated
arguing that it was not

a mental disorder.

So if you're asking; was it
pure science, not it was not.

So it's not true that there
was no new information.

There were new studies
which showed that there were

a large number of
gays who were not

dissatisfied with being gay,

and who were
functioning quite well.

The purpose of this study,

one has to understand
the context.

The context is that
the gay community says

there are ex gays, but if
you really interview them

and find out what
they mean by change,

you'll find that they
don't really change

their sexual feelings.

What they change is the way
they identify themselves.

So, they may come
to the conclusion;

I'm really heterosexual because
God makes me heterosexual,

but I still have these feelings.

So the purpose of
the study was to see,

are there a sizable
number of people

for whom it's not
true they only change

the way they label themselves,
but they actually change

their core sexual
orientation feelings.

That is what arouses them,
what fantasies they have.

- The reputation of the study

has nothing to do
with the science.

The reputation has to do with

the personality
of the scientist.

That is, this is a man who
is a well regarded scientist.

Who, in this
particular instance,

he's not a sex researcher,
decided to invest his personal

reputation in this
particular project.

And that's really
the basis of all

the interest in the subject,
not the science of the study,

but Spitzer himself
is the story.

- What we found is that
most of the subjects

gave very credible
accounts of changing

not only the way they
labeled themselves,

but their core sexual feelings.

The amount of change varied
for different subjects.

Most of the subjects
made major changes.

It was a minority that
claimed they have made

a complete switch, I
think it was only 11%.

- Therapies can enlarge peoples,

in some cases, can enlarge
some people's capacities

for sexual function.

That is a possibility.

But, how often it can do that,

can everybody who walks
in the door get that?

I don't think so.

- Do I believe, for the record,

do I believe people can
go from gay to straight?

No.

Do I think if there's some
remote possibility that,

and I'm wrong, it
certainly doesn't come

to these ex gay programs.

- You see this huge billboard
in your town that says;

I questioned homosexuality,
change is possible.

Well the change that
you're thinking of

is not two fives for a ten.

(chattering)

- [Joanne] Did
anybody see Lance?

Where'd he go?

Lance!

Is Lance downstairs?

- [Male] Joanne?

- [Joanne] Yeah?

- [Male] Lance is
in the restroom.

- [Joanne] Oh, okay.

Alright, let's try this then.

One, two, three, four,
five, six, seven.

(phone ringing)

We're missing seven.

- [Woman] Here's
one, here's one.

- That's good.

We know that Ty
is gonna be late.

We've always had a
Christmas party every year.

The first year was
in our apartment.

We just had a Christmas tree,

and our ministry had just begun.

- We call it, really,
or we believe,

because other's have said it,

that it is probably the best
Christian Christmas party

in the city of New York.

(piano playing)

(singing)

- The message essentially is

how I got free
from homosexuality.

That's basically it.

(singing)

- And I was still struggling,
not only with homosexuality,

but also with pornography.

And in my lifestyle, I
never accepted in my mind

or in my heart, that I was gay.

(singing)

- It was hard for me to believe.

When you first hear
the voice of God

it's a shock, I'd
guess you'd say.

And many times you don't
want to believe it.

But, I was so
hungry to get well,

that when he said he would
heal me, I was excited.

But, the thing that
happened after that,

was I seemed to get
worse and worse.

And soon, I was feeling so sick

that I asked God to take me.

I thought it was
time for me to die.

One day I was working
out in the yard,

I love to garden, and I
remember Ron saying to me;

Joanne, let's go to church,

they're having a prayer meeting.

And this voice came out of me

that I knew wasn't me.

It just said; no!

I thought; that's strange.

I never had such
a strong feeling

against going to church.

And yet, he took me there.

And after that, it was a
morning prayer meeting,

after that the pastor
met with us in his study.

And I began to tell him
about my former lesbianism,

and that I'd been very sick,

and that I didn't
know what to do.

(singing)

- God does not make gay people.

I am sorry, you can quote that.

And I know that's gonna
get a lot of people upset.

I really don't believe that.

I believe, what a
cruel God that would be

if he says that no
homosexual will enter

the kingdom of Heaven, if
he doesn't allow a way out.

- It was right after that

that he prayer
deliverance over me.

And I didn't even know
that Christians had demons.

I was quite shocked.

But I knew something had
reared it's head that day

when I said no to going
to the prayer meeting.

But also, it got more
intense because I was dressed

fully, as I thought,
ruling prima donna

of the Kansas City Lyric
Opera should dress.

And all of the sudden, when
he began to pray for me,

I was just sitting in a chair,

I found myself
down on the floor.

I felt a scream
come out of my mouth

that I knew wasn't me.

And then he began to cast
these spirits out of me,

these demonic spirits.

And I knew they came out.

I felt them come out.

And then afterward I
felt very shaky inside,

like, I used to describe
it like a wet dog.

- [Bill] What did
that feel like?

Did it feel like a
physical catharsis?

I mean, where you...

- [Joanne] Yes.

And when I had cast
demons out of people,

I have seen clearly that

people always say
they feel lighter.

Many times, when you're
casting out demons,

they will talk back.

They will talk
through the person.

Something like; you
can't cast us out.

We're in here, and
you can't get to us.

So, there's no reason to
converse with demons (singing)

cause they're liars, and
they'll say a lot of things

just to try to trip you up.

- [Bill] And what
does it sound like?

- Sometimes like growling,

sometimes just like...

All kinds of things, screaming,

different voices.

I've worked with
people who've been

in Satanic ritual problems

and all kinds of
voices will come out

according to the
different personalities.

Basically, homosexuality
is not natural

because it is not
the created design

that God ordained for sexuality.

We believe it's a
demonic counterfeit

for God's created design.

It parodies it, if you will.

And causes sickness,
causes death,

does not bring what God
says sexuality should bring.

You know, Godly offspring.

I pray for every person
here tonight (piano music)

and for every person who
ever walked through the door

of Life Ministry in
all these years, Lord.

That there will be
something, something,

that would break
through the darkness.

Something that
would say to them;

yes, you can be free.

Yes, you can be pure.

- [Audience] Yes,

- As if you had never sinned.

By the blood of Jesus,

by the power of almighty God.

- ♪ Hair must be in place, ♪

♪ Must have a perfect body,
perfect smile, perfect face, ♪

♪ Living in a perfect
state to the inth degree, ♪

♪ There's only one
thing wrong with that ♪

♪ This person isn't me. ♪

(laughing)
(applauding) (singing)

- ♪ I'm too full of the future,
and I'm too full of the past ♪

♪ I'm too full of my feelings
and the shadow that I cast. ♪

♪ I'm too full of rejection,
failure, power to success, ♪

♪ It seems I might identify
with fear, I must confess. ♪

(singing)

- ♪ I have to make you feel
good, I really have to please. ♪

(group singing)

♪ Serving God with
all our heart, the
promise that we're in. ♪

(Applauding)

- And after I came to my
senses and ultimately came out,

I had this huge
struggle over my faith.

What do I do with Jesus?

And it was hard for me to
go to a traditional church

with a preacher, and a pulpit,

because it just
gave me flashbacks

to those abusive
days and churches.

Yeah, I used to live on 81st,

between Columbus and Amsterdam.

This is one of my
favorite spots,

going to Shakespeare
in the Park,

going to the castle.

Yeah, I love this.

Of course, it's dangerous too.

Because there's a gay part.

At least there used to be.

- [Bill] Yeah, The Ramble.

- And so, we were always like,

warned, don't go to The Ramble.

I didn't find out about it
until I was warned about it.

Which (laughing) you
learn more crap about

this sort of stuff by
sitting with the ex gays

than if you actually
just lived your life.

And my first shot of a play

was gonna be just monologue
of just me talking

without the comedy.

And it was so
horribly depressing.

I was like; I can't
do this to anybody.

And I realized that in the
comedy, and in the characters,

I can tease out stuff

that's just too hard
to handle directly.

I mean, some of the
pain is so unbelievable

that you have to be
laughing through it

to really get it.

And that's the power of comedy.

That you can get to those
places through comedy.

(children playing)

I think the bottom line,
what I'm getting at,

is that the greatest
sin on the planet

is when we're inauthentic.

That's the greatest
sin to ourselves,

the greatest sin to society,

the greatest sin before God,

is when we're not being true.

Do you say; well, I have these
problems because I'm gay,

which is a lot
easier to say than;

I have these problems
cause I was horribly,

viciously abused
when I was young.

I was victimized,
I was powerless.

Instead you blame yourself
and your own desires,

and say; aw, it's
my fault, I'm gay,

and that's why I have all
these problems in my life.

I didn't want to do
something that was simply

gonna bash ex gay ministries,

but rather something that
was gonna be proactive.

And that's when we
decided to do the

Ex Gay Survivors Conference.

It is primarily about public
awareness and education.

If dialogue occurs
as a result of that,

that's really good.

But, the reality is, it's
gotta get into the mainstream

that there are dangers
to these programs.

It's about identity, and it's
about being an individual,

something that is
both prized and feared

in the United States.

We always talk about;

oh, we have to be
individual, individual.

But as soon as someone
is an individual,

they are often punished for it.

(water flowing)

I was accepted as a queer
person, that was awesome.

My spirituality and my
faith in Jesus was accepted,

but also, so much of my
other beliefs in the world,

how I'm really very
much against war,

and I'm very much against
any sorts of violence,

even against animals and such,

and it all clicked together
in a really nice way here.

So I felt; hey, I can
be gay and Christian,

and politically minded,
and it all works together.

(1960s Theme Music)

- [Film Narrator] The
decision is always yours,

and your whole future may
depend on making the right one.

So no matter where
you meet a stranger,

be careful if they
are too friendly.

If they try to win your
confidence too quickly,

and if they become
overly personal.

One never knows when
the homosexual is about.

He may appear normal,

and it may be too late when you
discover he is mentally ill.

So keep with your group,

and don't go off
alone with strangers

unless you have the permission
of your parents or teacher.

- George Foreman is here.

Blue October is coming up.

Our next guest is a
controversial psychotherapist

who believes he can make
any gay person straight.

If effective, his
methods could bring

the show tune industry
to it's knees.

(laughing)

His book is called
Coming Out Straight.

Please welcome sexual
reorientation specialist,

Richard Cohen. (upbeat
music) (applause)

- Richard Cohen
is very important

cause he's entertaining,
which makes him a media icon.

He's been on the biggest
shows on television.

More people have seen
his tale of change

and his methods, than
any other ex gay leader

with the exception of
maybe Allen Chambers,

the head of Exodus
International.

That exposure, on
national television

makes him a big player.

It makes people go to his
website from across the world

when they want help going
from gay to straight.

Based on that alone, he
might be the most prominent,

famous ex gay leader
in the world today.

- [Bill] You're an ex
gay success story, right?

I mean, that's fair to say?

- I think that's fair to say.

So as long as we're saying
I'm an ex gay success story,

and that doesn't
mean that I'm healed,

that's a fair statement.

- If in his heart,
he's fulfilled...

The goal is to help each
client fulfill their dreams.

It's not what we want for them.

Otherwise that's not
therapy, that's dictation.

Dictatorial living.

So John, his passion
is to be straight,

and now he wants to date.

And we were coaching him a bit

in our last session about that
as he was asking for help.

- Richard is running a four
session training program

for people who wanna
know more about his work

and who, at the
end of this work,

might be qualified to
be called counselors

in continuing the work.

One of the things Richard
talks about doing is

people who get this
accreditation from him

will be listed on his
website as life coaches

or sexual reorientation coaches,

whatever he wants to call that.

- Well he's now participating

in my counselor
training program.

I started last year,
last year I terminated

my private practice in order
to train more professionals.

So I did it for 17 years.

He cannot be a licensed
counselor, that's correct.

- [Bill] Correct, he cannot
be a licensed counselor.

He cannot engage in therapy.

- That's correct.

- [Bill] Okay.

But he can be a
life coach because

there's not right out law.

- He can be a sexual
reorientation coach.

- [Bill] What you said
the first time. (laughing)

- And the second, and the third.

- [Bill] And the second
and the third. (laughing)

- And I shall continue.

- [Bill] Your expulsion from the

American Counseling Association.

- Which I'm very proud of.

- [Bill] Well, why
are you proud of that?

- (sighing) (phone rings) Oh,
because I saved by the bell.

(laughing)

- [Bill] Your expulsion from

The American
Counseling Association.

- Right.

- [Bill] Okay,
you essentially...

- [Richard] It's a
smoke screen, Bill.

- [Bill] Well, we
have to get through

the smoke screen.

- [Richard] Okay, I
don't want to comment

any further on this.

You can go over point by point.

I will read you the letter.

I'm gonna read you the letter.

So you don't even have
your facts straight, Bill.

- [Bill] You have the
letter right there?

- Yes.

- [Bill] Could I see it?

- It's in 2002.

When did I terminate
counseling, Bill?

I started last year,
last year I terminated

my private practice.

Are they a licensing
organization?

- [Bill] No.

They are a professional
association.

- Right, so they have no...

- [Bill] The licensing
board handles licensing

for all health professionals.

- So they have no
jurisdiction over anything.

- [Bill] Correct.

- Yeah.

- [Bill] But they have
professional guidelines

that are adopted
by the association.

- [Richard] Okay,
I wouldn't want to

comment anymore on this.

- [Bill] Okay.

- [Richard] So if you want to
keep going on it, I'm done.

- It's the lie I tell myself.

I tell myself; I can
look at this today

and I'm not gonna...

- [Bill] You can look
at gay pornography?

- I can look at gay pornography

and nothing's gonna happen.

And you know what,
sometimes I can look at it,

one day, two days, three days.

But sooner or later, if
I continue to look at it,

somewhere in the back
of my mind I know,

the very first time
that I look at it,

somewhere in the very
back of my mind I know

I'm gonna masturbate.

And I try to convince
myself I'm not,

but again, that's the
lie I tell myself.

- [Bill] This is about
being fair to you.

- I answered you.

I don't want to talk
about it anymore.

- [Bill] Okay.

Can we talk about the training
you're doing with John,

which you charge...

- (Richard) We already did.

- [Bill] You charge
people like John money

for that training.

If you are a member of the
American Counseling Association

that would be another violation.

(laughing)

- [Richard] It's not important.

- [Bill] It is because
you were kicked out

of the American Counseling....

- [Richard] But I don't
care, I don't care.

It's just like the
Unification Church.

You wanna make a deal
out of that, and I don't.

- I wanna be happy, I
don't want to be lonely.

If someone came into my life

that I could spend the
rest of my life with,

and lead a chaste life,
whether that's as a married man

leading a healthy married life,

or I suppose the
possibility is still there

that another man could
come into my life

and I could have a chaste
relationship with him.

I haven't met any
of those people, so.

But if we're talking
fantasy here,

I don't wanna be lonely.

I don't want to die
a lonely old man.

- [Bill] Instead of walk up and
down out of the camera shot.

- [Richard] Well, what is
gonna help me to help you.

- [Bill] Sit down
and talk to me.

Sit down and talk to me.

- Okay.

- [Bill] 'Cause I'm
here to be fair to ya.

So you don't agree
that homosexuals

are predisposed to pedophilia?

Which is Paul Cameron's point.

- No.

That homosexuals are
predisposed to pedophilia?

- [Bill] Yeah, that
homosexuals are pedophiles.

- Some are, and
heterosexuals are too.

- [Bill] Okay

- [Richard] The majority
are heterosexuals.

Well it's ratio of
population, I don't know.

- [Bill] Okay, I understand
what you're saying.

- [Richard] I don't know
about Paul Cameron much.

- [Bill] Okay, so
you do not support

the argument that homosexuals
are disproportionately

predisposed to pedophilia?

- I don't know the
statistics on that.

- [Bill] Okay.

For allegedly pressuring
clients to give you money.

- (sighing) Are you
taping all this?

- [Bill] Yeah, absolutely.

- Okay.

- [Bill] We can move on.

Because I don't want
this to get to a point

where we can't discuss
the other material.

You alright?

- No.

- [Bill] What's the matter?

- I didn't like all that.

You kept going on
and on, and on.

It was your agenda.

It's your agenda.

- [Bill] And my
agenda is the facts.

- Your interpretation of words.

So if you can...

- [Bill] Next
subject, next subject.

- Okay.

- [Bill] Let's talk
about bio energetics.

- I don't wanna comment
on it, no. (laughing)

- [Bill] Before we came
down here, Richard.

- I don't think I wanna...

- [Bill] You called me.

- Yeah.

- [Bill] And you said
that you asked us

not to show some video
tape of bio energetics

that we had taken.

- Yeah.

I'm done with the interview.

Thank you.

Sorry, Bill.

- Homophobia is a made up term

that was made up about
10 or 12 years ago

as a way to make the average
American feel guilty.

- I have clients that
come here from London,

I have clients that drive
nine hours to see me.

Clients that call from all over.

We have a client from
Jicarda, a client from Turkey.

I've had clients from
Iceland, from England.

Because there's just no
one out there doing it

because it's
politically incorrect.

- And they took over.

They put their faces in
the faces of the people

and they said; how dare you!

And they said; we're
gonna kill you!

You f'ing this and that.

We're queer, we're here,
you better get used to it!

And stop treating us like
second class citizens.

- [Female] Do you think
Richard's completely healed?

Cohen?

- No.

- [Female] No.

Have you met anyone
that's completely healed?

- No.

- Well, we have seen that if
there is demonic oppression

in a household, many times
the children could possibly

be involved in incest.

- Yeah, basically you have
to become a white anglo saxon

and conservative, born
again, evangelical,

republican, Christian.

And pretty much
every ex gay I met

if it didn't start out that way,

they pretty much end that way.

- [Bill] What would
you say to the folks

who run these reparative
therapy programs

that think they can
change homosexuals?

(whistle blowing)

(laughing)

(chattering)

(whistle blowing)

(typing)