Beyond Punishment (2015) - full transcript

Three men who killed, and three families who lost a loved one. No way to imagine the two sides will ever get closer.

Since Homer's time,

mankind has endeavored
to control wrath and violence.

Laws were created,

justice systems were created,
prisons were created.

For the duration of the imprisonment,

victims and offenders
now were strictly separated.

We're gonna just look at what's in here.

This is the south cell hall.
The north cell hall is almost identical.

Three hundred seventy-some inmates
live in each of these areas.

Are they doubled up?
- Some of them are.

This high-security prison in Wisconsin

is one of the very few prisons worldwide

that offers the victims of violence

the chance
to meet with violent criminals.

They do not, however, meet with
the perpetrators of their own cases.

1100 roughly inmates here.

It's a maximum security institution.

I always tell the story that
in the middle of the circle is a candle.

That candle was given to us by a woman,

an Irish woman
who works in prisons in Ireland.

Her name is Anne Gallagher, and she runs
a program called "The Seeds of Hope".

That candle really unites us
in an international way

with others around the world.
And I always like to point that out.

When I was a judge,
I remember I was sitting in felony court

and I was doing homicides
and sexual assaults full-time.

I heard about
this restorative justice thing,

and victims and offenders
getting together.

And I thought: 'That's the craziest thing
I've ever heard. I can't imagine.'

It absolutely transformed me.

And the talking circle is an opportunity
for each of us

to speak from our heart
and to learn from the other.

The most important thing people do
in a circle is to listen to each other.

Hi, my name is Bobby.

I came to prison at 19 years old.

I'm 43 now.

I have a few years left before I go home.

When I came to prison,
I was an angry young man

and needed help.

I'd say about ten years
into my incarceration in 1998,

I met a man named
Chaplain Jerry North from Waupan,

and he told me one day
in his office, he said:

'You can't keep doing the same things...

the same way
looking for a different result'.

My name is Michael.

I'm from Chicago.
I grew up in Chicago.

My thing was I grew up in gangs.

I've been locked up most of my life.
I been doing time since '84.

My momma didn't have the answers.
She grew up.

I get my anger from my mother.

I don't blame her for that
but I do get my anger from my mother.

She was abused as a child from her father
and she displayed that.

So, I grew up with that, her anger.

I know I understand anger.

My mother and dad both gave me
unconditional love,

and I think unconditional love
is the one thing that I learned that I

really try to pass on.

My name's William Parchman.

I think one of the people
that put the greatest impact on my life

was my older sister.

It's just the matter of you waking up
and deciding that

change is...
change is time... it's time to change.

So, it had come.

The positive thing
my mom said to me once, last spring:

'I'm proud of you son,
even though you are in prison.'

I got five siblings and...

I don't know.

Good job.

My name's Lisa.

I think that the most impactful thing
that ever happened to me

was as a young girl.
I always looked to people

to see the good in them all the time.

If you know people by now

that can actually not be a good thing
because they tend to fail you.

But I didn't understand
why people would fail me

or why I was looking to them
for something or anything.

One day I came home
to my father and I was like:

'Why do people keep doing things
to me that I wouldn't do to them?'

And my father told me:

'You have to accept people
for who they are.'

And after that I learned to live life
a lot differently.

To see people for who they are
and not judge them


it's worked out a lot better.

Darryl, Darryl, Darryl.

Maybe we can just get a picture, right?

And put it there.

Darryl was Lisa's brother, Leola's son.

He was shot dead at the age of 16,

near their apartment in the Bronx.

A friend of Darryl's had thrown an egg
ata young man from the neighborhood,

which led to a fight.

Almost ten years have passed since then.

Yeah, I oughta get him a picture.

Sentences in Norway are the opposite
of those in the USA.

In fact Norway has the most lenient
sentencing policy in the world.

Erik lost his daughter five years ago.

The 16-year old Ingrid
was shot in the street by her boyfriend.

The two had been a couple for one year.

Their families lived 300 yards apart.

Ingrid had called her boyfriend
from a party at their local sports club,

and they had quarreled.

When your daughter gets a boyfriend,
you think she's safe.

But she was not.

When your children grow up
they have their own opinion about things,

and Ingrid-Elisabeth
had a strong personality.

It's not actually when it happened,

but everything that built up to it.

And I think that is not only us,

but all her friends.
When she talked on the phone

and they heard her...
what she was talking to him

and that they didn't stop her.

Several of her friends talked to her
minutes before she was killed.

One thing is, what happened
in that actual situation there,

but that we didn't see it coming.

That we didn't understand

his personality more than we did.

And of course, for a father
not being able to protect your child...

that's an extreme situation.

The dog
is the last link to Ingrid in many ways.

This is the picture
from her confirmation.

She is sitting in the front row.

This was together with the dog,
which was hers, Jena.

We were having the same sense of humor.

The feeling that you have that...

you have a twin soul.

And of course

she also represented

not only what I am,

but also everything
that I would like to have been.


because of the way she was.

And of course
she was also extremely competitive.

And I miss her a lot.

Ingrid's former boyfriend, Stian,

is now in prison
in another part of the country.

Sometimes he is granted special
permission to make internet calls.

It was a sight that I will never forget.

There's something special
about the last breath because then...

all life just disappears.

You can almost...

you can almost feel that

the spirit leaves the body.


From the look of the eyes, the body...

the noise of the lungs filling up

for the last time.

It's a sight you never can forget.

What did you do next?

This happened...

and her eyes
just rolled back in her head.

Then I panicked

and I tried to call Erik
three or four times.

Because, I don't know...

I just felt that he would be
the person to call first.

It all just happened automatically.

When I tried to call him
and I tried to call the police.

I just walked this yellow line
in the middle of the road

without thinking of anything

but this last breath.

That is something that
has a special place in my mind.

It will be there forever.

Darryl was a typical Bronx teenager,

and he had himself been in trouble
with the law a few times.

The night before, and the morning
of his murder, he had not been home.

He was very athletic
and he could box really good.

Which is probably the reason why
he got killed because he had to fight.

That's sad, that you can have a fight
and somebody comes back and kills you.

That Saturday, it was February 9th.

He was going to school. So we went to
Secaucus, New Jersey, to go shopping,

because he wanted the Champion shirt.

And I said: 'As long as you go to school,
I'll get the Champion shirt.'

We had an awesome day that Saturday.

We shopped. We had a real good time.

We came home...

They was having a party downstairs
for the girl that was eight years old.

He was right in the hallway,

and I said: 'I love you
and I'm going out and take care of Lisa.'

He's like:
'Ma, I got this. I got this, Ma.'

Then, the next thing I know,
it's the next day.

This is me and Darryl opening presents.

There is Darryl
opening up his PlayStation.

At that circle in prison

you started
to call the inmates gentlemen.

What do you think about the man
convicted for killing Darryl?

I wouldn't see him changing at all,
because he didn't admit to the crime

and that's first and foremost.

I definitely don't see how you could
ever be a part of restorative justice

if you're not being honest
about the crime you committed.

The only thing
that it might have brought to me

is that he was very, very angry.

He had gotten robbed
maybe a year before

he had come into the confrontation
with Darryl and wound up killing Darryl.

I think, in his mind, he got a gun

and he decided if anybody
ever bothered him or whatever,

he was gonna get that gun
and he was gonna take care of business.

Unfortunately Darryl
had to be playing a childhood prank

and hit him with an egg.

Then he has a fight,
goes home and he gets the gun

and he comes back and kills Darryl.

I don't think he's gonna ever be,

I would hope and pray
he would be, but I doubt it

because he's cold-blooded.

I don't think he would wanna be
a participant of restorative justice

because in his mind, there's nothing
to restore because he's not guilty.

"Today, RAF commando Ingrid Schubert,

shot dead the secret diplomat Braunmühl,

the political director
of foreign affairs in Germany.

Our actions target
the aggressive FRG state-apparatus.

It functions as the core

of Western European
imperial war strategy."

This statement was found
close to the scene of the crime.

Patrick lost his father
in an assassination.

Gerold von Braunmühl
was one of the last victims

of the German militant leftwing RAF,
the Red Army Faction.

The senior official
at the German Foreign Office,

he was shot one evening in the street

right in front of his house.

At the time his son, Patrick, was 18.

His motivation to work
at the office for Foreign Affairs

was his experiences
in late World War Il.

His family lived in what is now
the Czech Republic.

They were exiled and passed
through reception camps.

He experienced
all the stress and suffering.

He wrote a great examination essay

that expressed early on his desire

to work in foreign affairs.

To prevent wars from happening again.

almost three decades have passed,

Patrick is haunted by the question

of who actually killed his father
and why.

There's this image of my father.

He wasn't much older than I am today.

The last time I saw him.

When he went to work
and gave me a hug.

When we had breakfast together
for the last time.

All those memories.

They've remained at a standstill
in a distant time.

The images from the terrible crime.

The insanity of the crime:
getting a call at night,

arriving in that
brightly illuminated street,

looking at the covered dead body.

I obviously did not want
to associate it with my father.

All that terror and the days after.

All that happened.

It's a trauma buried deep inside.

And situations like this
bring it all back.

Stian had confessed to shooting Ingrid

with a sports pistol
from his father's gun collection.

As a minor,
he was sentenced to nine years in prison.

After a few years he was transferred
to a prison in the fjord of Bergen.

Common people have very...

They have severe difficulties

in understanding
what a prison is really like.

Because when you are standing outside
watching this island,

see sheep walking freely around,

it looks like paradise in a certain way.

But really it's a prison.
It's the same rules.

You know?

The people who are standing outside

and watching a prison system
from a distance

can't really understand

the real problems.

Because they just see:
"You have a sofa!

Oh my God, you have salmon on your table,

Oh my God you have a big TV
with hundreds of channels.

You are allowed to have a computer
and are allowed to go to the Internet."

In some way that feels like a hotel

compared to other countries.


that's not what we are focused on.

What is your focus?

So far I never walked
one single round around the island alone.

I had these tensions inside me
all the time, so I

didn't ever relax.

After four years in prison,

Stian received the right
to visit his family on weekends.

Norwegian law permits him

to leave this island
every two or three months.

Erik has no legal means to prevent this.

The time frame is important
with respect to rehabilitation.

Our rehabilitation.

that does not necessarily need to mean

that the person needs to be sitting
in a high-security prison.

It's a need for us to feel secure,

knowing that this person
is somewhere else.

That you don't need to look over
your shoulder every time you go outside.

That is the time frame of it.

Not knowing how he is,
not knowing his mental state,

is a huge challenge.

Because when you have that fear,

it is not just something you put aside.

The fear is there.
I go in treatment,

but still I can't put it aside.

I don't feel secure.

And that has nothing to do
with whether he will...

do anything to me or not.

Because statistically he will not.

But statistically he shouldn't
have killed my daughter.

But he did.

I don't know
when he will be out on probation.

However, what they have said
from the prison is that

if he applies,
he will be out by January 22nd, 2012.

Which is six years,
two-thirds of his sentence.

The following spring, Lisa and Leola
make another trip to Wisconsin,

this time to attempt a dialogue
with only one offender.

With the assistance of the former
State Supreme Court Judge,

they meet with a man
who has murdered.

He has no connection
with Darryl's case.

Good morning.
Sorry about all this.

It's alright.
- You doing okay?

Did you sleep okay?
- Absolutely.

They are nervous.

Are you a little nervous?
- I'm pretty sure we all are.

So, my role here
is to support all three of you.

And to help you in any way.

If there is some awkward moments
or difficult moments I may interject,

but for the most part it's a chance
for the three of you to talk.

I have asked
Lisa and Leola to start a little bit

maybe by telling us about Darryl

and taking us through what happened.

If anyone needs a break,
you just let me know.

The day that Darryl was murdered,
it was a Sunday,

so we were both home
and my father as well.

They'd been married
for twenty-six years, right?

We're a pretty close-knit family.

I was nine years old.

My brother's friends
all used to ring the doorbell.

And they would be like:
'Hi, Lisa, is your brother home?'

But this time
his friend Rich rung the bell.

He's like:
'Hi, Lisa. Is your mother home?',

which really threw us off.

He comes upstairs and he's shaking.

'Darryl was shot
and the blood is coming out his mouth.'

He stays with me and my parents run.

Probably about seven o'clock
my mom had called me from the hospital

and had told me that he had died.

I just felt like I was robbed.

I was robbed
and my innocence had been stolen.

Because I was a baby.

In my eyes, I was a baby.

I didn't realize people
were so evil or angry.

I think that stripped it from me.

From then I felt like
I grew up at nine.

It sounds stupid.

I remember this, right?

Darryl wasn't always well behaved.

He wasn't a bad kid
because he had excellent manners.

What happened
on the day he got murdered...

me and Lisa were looking at TV.
All of a sudden I had this vision.

And I was like, damn, somebody died.

The vision was gone.

Three seconds later,
the friend is ringing the bell.

They put us in a room.

It was me and my husband
and Dwayne's mother and father.

And some other lady was with them.

I looked up and the nurse
or the doctor came in

and she was telling Dwayne's mother
to come out.

And I'm like: 'Oh, my God!'

I'm like:
'Oh, my God. Is he dead?'

And they were: 'Yeah, he's dead.'
And I'm like:

Oh my God.
Everything killed him.

It just felt like everything killed him.

I tried so hard to fight for him,

to try and save him

but it wasn't even up to me.

Things were still gonna happen
the way they had to happened.

I had no control over that.

I had just turned eighteen
as a matter of fact, and...

I was with this one girl.

I was just chilling...

and I rubbed my pockets, thinking,
I ain't got no money, man.

I remember, and,
we were just at her home, and...

she was like: 'So what you gonna do?'

I said: 'I'll be right back.
Let me use your phone.'

I hopped on her phone
and I made this call to this restaurant.

I make the call. I hang up the phone

and I'm like, man,
I'm thinking to myself,

I don't even really wanna go outside.
I really don't.

I'm like: 'Okay, if I go over here,

and this guy's not here,
I'm just gonna turn around and leave.'

I'm not gonna wait or nothing.

When I go and I get to the yard,

I see the car pull up

with the restaurant sign on top.

I'm like: 'All right.
All right it's too late now.'

I go through the yard and

I turn the light off
so it's dark back there.

I see him come in and I pull a gun out.

I tell him:
'Just drop everything.

Drop the money on the ground
and just leave.'

And he did that.

He dropped the food
that he had in his hand.

I couldn't see what else
he was doing it was so dark, but...

the gun just...

it just went off.

I don't know. It went off, man.

'I can't believe this happened.

I can't believe this.'

That's the whole...
that's the only thing I'm saying.

I'm down there for like two hours
just sitting there by myself.

I'm just thinking about everybody.
My family, my daughter.

And I'm like:
'Damn, did this just happen?'

You don't remember your finger
touching the gun or nothing?

No, I don't. I didn't have my finger
on the trigger or nothing like that.

Because my intention going there
wasn't to shoot nobody.

The gun just went off?
- Yeah.

Maybe you hit it or something
and it came out?

Absolutely not.
I didn't do none of that.

The judge gave me sixty-five years.

I been down fifteen years now

I'm thirty three.

And it's like...

The hardest part for me is

I had to watch my daughter
grow up in prison.

When she would come see me,
she would just look at me like...

And I could tell what was on her mind
but she just didn't know how to say it.

From day one, when I found out
and everything like that,

I've been trying
to fight for Darryl's memory and stuff

because he's my only son.

I can almost
identify with your daughter.

It's just on the other foot.

You in here. She out there.
My baby dead.

It's the people like us
that gotta live with that every day.

If you do get somebody to man up
and say: 'I'm sorry!' or be remorseful

or talk to the people,
that makes it a little better.

At least you talked in the court.
He said nothing. He was cold as ice.

It's like as if
he just took his self out.

His body was just there.

If you don't mind me asking,

what would you tell him?
What would you say to him?

The first thing would probably be:

'What took you so long
to get to this point in your life?'

That would be my first question.

'After you killed my brother,

why did it take you this long
for you to admit to doing it?'

What can I do not to allow somebody else
to ever do this again?

Like, where did this anger come from?

'Cause it wasn't just from my brother.

It's no way in hell somebody...

A little fist fight and now you wanna
come back and kill everybody?

It's deep.

So, where did this come from?

I'll be having
a world of questions for him.

There's absolute incomprehension.

The feeling
of many questions unanswered.

And on the other hand you learn

to live without answers
to the many questions.

But it is a very unhappy situation.

A murder happened, and to this day,

you still don't know anything.

You don't know who, you don't know why.

You don't know
what was discussed in that group.

How they chose their victims.

This feeling is deeply unsatisfying.

After the attack, Patrick and his family
took an extraordinary step,

attempting to communicate
with the RAF killers

through a daily newspaper.

They got no response.

Seven years later, the RAF member
Birgit Hogefeld was arrested.

She was never accused
of the Braunmühl assassination.

But at the time she had been
in the inner circle of the RAF.

Therefore Patrick and his family
wanted to talk with her,

and they had a meeting in prison.

I could imagine it quite well.

The meeting is long ago.

1996, nearly 20 years ago.

Obviously life went on.

After such a long period,

I would expect to be able to have...

a frank talk about it.

I'd like to learn more about it.

I know that at the time
I was fairly reserved

and tense,
I thought: did she hold the gun?

Am I sitting opposite the murderer
or not?

I asked her

how the RAF chose their victims.

Again, her answer...

She didn't want to...

She didn't want to discuss it
in relation to my father.

She only mentioned how...

how abstract...
selections had been.

She also admitted

they didn't pay much attention
to the people in question

and weren't interested in them.

They were looking for individuals

who could be portrayed as evil.

of the imperialistic state.

But they never actually asked

what these people thought

or what wrongs they actually committed.

That was less relevant.

Birgit Hogefeld was released
from prison after 20 years.

Do you think she's willing
to speak to you?

The prerequisites for her...

talking to you or me

is she herself being interested
for her own sake...

in processing the matter;

that she still considers it
a matter of importance...

and views dialogue
as an opportunity

to move forward herself.

Erik's family
received a letter from Stian in prison.

His ten handwritten pages
explain the crime in detail

and intended to ease their fear
about him visiting the town.

But actually,
Erik's family became deeply troubled.

They felt that the Norwegian state
was failing to protect them.


made the final decision
in two thousand and...

We moved here in 2010.
Two years ago.

The 15th of December, 2010.

We didn't have any trust in that
he would do anything but moving home.

And that was the only indication we got.
So it kind of came from that.

At that point you can't just wait and
suddenly you get into a forced situation.

The grief we feel
for the loss of Ingrid-Elisabeth

does not mean that we love you less.

That's for sure.

But of course

one of the biggest fears is that you see

if your other children are suffering,

you cannot do anything with it.

But did you see that?
- Yes.

I think we saw that.

Because... I think I actually did,
but that was...

more from mum than you.

It's now that I feel I started
to look over my shoulder when I'm...

After he got out of prison.

I think that was when I started
to look over my shoulder.

- Not before. -No.

When I see someone

who in my imagination looks like him...

I don't have those.

... then I'm really focusing
and looking hard

and kind of making sure it's not him
coming towards me or coming up behind me.

That's the only thing where I have to...

to make sure that I am in control.

I don't think I remember
what he looks like anymore.

I only remember his little brother.

You think he looks similar?

I think his little brother
looks similar.

If they don't want anything to do with me

and they don't wish to see me,

I'm going to do my best
trying to be a ghost

among people when I am home.

I still send my little brother

to the store if I want
ice cream or soda or whatever.

He thought that I was lazy and

that I wouldn't use my own money.

And I grabbed him and said:

this has nothing to do with laziness.'

And I, personally I have...

nothing to fear
to go to the store to buy what I want:

Nine of ten times it will be going okay.

But the one time it won't go okay,

and then I have failed.

After shooting Ingrid,
Stian wanted to kill himself.

It was only after his parents
visited him in custody

that he started to feel like a
human being again and a part of a family.

Since Stian's release from prison,
he has been studying far from home.

However he visits his parents regularly
in Hommersåk

and is worried that he will run
into a Berg Family member.

I also have friends living there,
in Sandnes, in their new apartment,

but I've never been there to visit them,

just because I know
the Berg Family lives there.

I have never placed my foot
in the graveyard.

And I don't allow myself to do so because

I respect the people who might come
and visit Ingrid-Elisabeth's grave

and who don't want to see me.

The whole prison stay isn't a punishment.

The only punishment you can get
is what you give to yourself,

because at the time you start thinking...

when you start to reflect
on what you did,

that's the real punishment.

The punishment is not
to be locked up in a small box

with nothing but yourself.

The real punishment
is what you make for yourself.

We are at Elverum Volke High School.

You choose this school
400 miles away from home?

I think it's...

because of my sister's murderer.

He is

close to home.

Even if he's in Kristiansand
or wherever he was.

He can still come home


I thought that if I'm far away,

the chance of meeting him is smaller.

I close myself off from everyone

and live very much by myself.

I think I have a difficulty to get...

to get to know boys.

That's something
I just have to get past.

Not everyone is like...
that guy.

Patrick's wish for another encounter
with Birgit Hogefeld

does not take place.

She doesn't want to meet him.

The RAF group became militant

in the aftermath
of the student protests of 1968.

One of the RAF's last surviving
founding members lives in Berlin.

Manfred was a close associate
of Andreas Baader and Gudrun Ensslin.

Here, around the Technical University,
was where I was with Petra Schelm.

This was our district.

We lived here on Bleibtreustrasse.

There was a huge demonstration here

and she was almost run down
by a police car.

What were you demonstrating against?

I think it was

the American invasion of Cambodia.

That was when things changed.

we were sick of peaceful demonstrations

and decided to arm ourselves.

The Federal Republic of Germany responded
to the RAF attacks of the early 70's

with the biggest manhunts in its history.

When I was convicted,

it was to life plus 10 years,

yes, that was what one had to expect.

Manfred was the RAF's forger.

In 1972 he turned a Hamburg apartment
into his workshop.

The thing was
the tenant of that apartment,


Thomas Weisbecker,

he was shot dead at noon
at a bus stop in Augsburg.

Straight to the heart.
By some police officer.

I thought, shit:
that apartment's too hot!

Before that
we'd never have re-entered it.

But these valuable machines
were in there.

Mainly that repro device.

it took us ages to organize it.

You couldn't just buy it anywhere.

Documents, passports and photos,

basically my complete darkroom.

I arrived, it was winter, March,
I don't know...

snow on the ground.
I walk in...

in front of me is a comrade
who didn't know the apartment...

I was wearing a thick winter coat
like a parka with lambskin.

In my right hand the keys

and in my left a briefcase.

Inside was a machine gun.

We wanted to get the forgery equipment
out as fast as possible.

That's why we came with a VW bus.

I open the door
and my comrade walks ahead.

I reach for the light switch

and instantly the shooting begins.

They had already been there
for five or six hours.

Three of them, as far as I know.

I dropped to the floor, drew,
and shot back.

All of this was in the dark.

So anyway...

Right, it was murder.


You can't claim self-defense.

No two ways about it.

In America
they'd have given me the electric chair.

No two ways about that, either.

The police chief investigator
died in the hospital.

Manfred recovered
from his nearly fatal gunshot wounds.

Miss Berg?
- Ah, it is me now.

I've had an indescribable
good time in this class, and...

Well, I had so many good experiences,
I can't describe it.

And the best teacher I've ever had.

At the beginning, I mean for probably
six to seven months or something,

I was living a nightmare.

It was like I was living in a nightmare.

And I really had to struggle to wake up.

At the same time I was suicidal.

I was thinking about ending it all.

I still have nightmares.

Not about the actual scene,

but more like that I'm with her.

I'm dreaming of the good memories
and when I wake up,

it's very sad to wake up

and realize
the fact that she's not here anymore.

I start to feel that if there
had been any chance in the world,

I would very much
trade her place with mine.

The bomb blew up

when Ingrid called me

for the third time
the evening I had gone home,

brushed my teeth and gone to bed.

She said: 'You know very well
if you are not around,

someone else is,

and you know very well
who this person is.'

And she was referring to this person.

I turned off my phone and I just thought,

good night and tomorrow is a new day.

And she called again

and she said that they
were finished with the first round

and that they were on their way
up to the second floor.

Where the couches are,
where people meet on a big table.

And she was telling me in detail
what they were supposed to do


And then I just threw
my phone against the wall.

And she did call up the third
and last time on the house phone.

She went further and deeper
into these sexual details

describing of what they did
and whatever...

and it just exploded in my head.

My intention was only to scare,

to make fear.

In the trial for Darryl's murder,

Sean was not willing
to take full responsibility,

and denied being the gunman.

If he now admitted
his full role in the crime,

Lisa and Leola
would not get to know this.

In the USA
prisoners are forbidden

to directly contact
their victims' family.

Why would I want
to talk to the perpetrator?

Well, it's been almost eleven years.

I'm pretty sure he regrets it
because his behind is in jail.

When I asked you
shall I contact him, you agreed.

So I did it.
And I wrote him a long letter.

And I told him
about the project and about you.

To him?-Yes.
- Did he write you back?-Yes.

He wrote me back.
- He wrote you back?

- What did he say?

I didn't even know
he was capable of writing.

Now you understand
how low my standards are for him.

Did you tell us that before?

That he wrote you back?

Oh that's all he wrote?

Let me see, Lisa.

He said he is willing to do it.

He's a liar.

Wow, this is crazy.

This is from Sean Green.
Friday, April 22nd, 2011.

"Hello and good day to you.

I'm writing to you
in regards to Mr. Siegert's letter

I received on 4/21/11.

However, I am willing
to be interviewed and to discuss

participation in Mr. Siegert's film.

Sincerely, Sean Green"

I seen that. I read it.

At least he can write.

Yeah, in script too. He signed his name.

- Well, that says something.

He got an education from New York.
That's what it says.

I guess...

Some month later,
Manfred suddenly mentions

that after his 19-year prison sentence,
he had intended to contact the family

of the police officer he had killed.

I wanted to put things straight.

I really thought:

I'd shot down a family man, you know?

With kids my age or younger...

And I thought

I get out after 18 years...

and offer an apology
to the victim's family.

I wanted to explain how it all happened.

I was uncertain of the outcome.

I wanted...

Maybe my wish wasn't strong enough.

It all went different than expected.

She prevented me, with her statements

towards the Bild newspaper,
you know, tabloid press.

They like to up the ante.

I still have the copy.

'The murderer of my husband
has been pardoned.

I cannot imagine why.'

For me, that was that.
I decided not to go there.

I mean...

I talked to my prison pastor
Hubertus Jansen.

He was prepared to be an intermediary
to set the thing up...

I asked him to help me.

For us her actions
were like closing the gates.

I didn't see any possibility.

What would that meeting
have meant to you?

You can't negate what has happened.

But, maybe...

if a meeting were to come about...

in some shape or form...

I could imagine...

that afterwards...

both parties would be able to let go

of that which is haunting them.

A kind of mutual closure.

Everyone had his reasons.

It happened the way it did.

I couldn't prevent it.
Neither could she.

Life goes on.


To put an end to this

victim-perpetrator bullshit.

Stian's letter to Erik's family
led to their total rejection of him.

When Erik himself later asked for
a meeting in prison,

Stian was advised not to do it.

Due to his regular visits to Hommersåk,

public and media backlash
was already too intense.

The Norwegian justice system did not
attempt to mediate between the two sides.

I would gladly take
some of their burden if I could.

I can never tell him
that I'm sorry for what I did,

because the word isn't strong enough.

'Sorry that I killed your daughter'
would just make it worse.

For him?
- Yes. I believe so.

Because there are no words.

There do not exist any words

that describe how sorry
you really are for what you did.

What would you have expected
from that meeting?

Do you want to give or to get?


What do you want to give?

I want to give me

as the person to blame being there.

I'm just free to point at and shoot at.

Just bring everything,

expressions and hate and whatever.

The eyes always tell a different story
than the words.

If I can receive that message,

maybe I will change my mind totally.

Just decide
never to place my foot in Rogaland.

There is something with the eyes of

living creatures
that can tell a different story.

The eyes always tell a different story
than the words.

If I can receive that message,

maybe I will change my mind totally.

Just decide
never to place my foot in Rogaland.

If he could understand
that I don't have any words

to describe my feelings for his loss.

If he can understand that,
then I have managed to...

to send out my message to him.

That I am sorry.

Of course
it would be unpleasant to meet him.

He murdered my daughter.
Of course it would be unpleasant.

Lisa and Leola have asked
the New York Department of Correction

for a victim-offender-dialogue
with Sean.

The department denied the dialogue

because Sean
has continued to assert his innocence.

Sean has now exhausted all legal options.

He says it is important for him
to defend his position on film.

We migrated from Jamaica
in the West Indies to come to America.

It was my mother really.
She wanted to come up.

I didn't personally
want to come to America yet.

Because I wanted to finish
high school down there first.

Then I would have moved to
Jamaica Queens, New York City

with my grandmother,
aunts and other cousins.

Stuff like that.

They enrolled me into Richmond Hill
High School in Queens, New York,

- which -
I wanted to go to a different school

but they said
it was my zone school.

I was fifteen years old
when I left Jamaica

to come up here to live in the US.

Sean, tell us about your punishment.

I have a forty-years-to-life sentence.

I have been incarcerated
for more than eleven years now.

It's difficult, some people
they say it happens for a reason,

but spiritually
it's not comfortable to me

because this is not where I want to be.

This is a place that I don't want
because this is an unnatural environment.

If you're not mentally strong enough,
it will drive you crazy.

This is why sometimes
some people hang themselves.

In his case file,
Sean has a copy of the surveillance video

from the crime scene.

He claims
he was not there for the shooting.

February 10th, 2002.

When I walked into the bodega
and approached him.

I said: 'Listen!
Why did you hit me with eggs?'

He said
he doesn't know what I'm talking about.

The fatal victim in this incident
comes over there.

He asks me what the problem is.
I said: 'No, there's no problem.'

When Darryl, the deceased,
asked the non-fatal one, Dwayne,

if there was a problem,
he said: 'No, there's not a problem.'

I said: 'Okay, it's not a problem.'
And then I left the store.

I've always been the first
to try to walk away from an incident

because I believe it's the right
thing to do, to avoid a situation.

This is what I've been doing
so this is why it's so stressful to me,

because I've been doing this
all my life to avoid problems.

Problems always seem to come
my way and then situations happen.

I feel that I was wrongfully convicted
and targeted because

there was nothing that proves that
I'm the one that really did the crime.

I don't believe it's a good idea
to meet with the deceased's family

because I said the closure
they're trying to find

is not
what they could get from me.

I can't give them what they want.

I am sitting in my car
not doing anything.

But he takes the gun

I wanna tell you,

I don't care
if it was a real gun or a loaded gun,

a BB gun
or a fake gun altogether.

The impact on the other side
is exactly the same.

The harm is exactly,
a hundred percent the same.

He takes the gun and he

cracks me three times
upside the head in the same spot.

It probably went something like this,
you know,

but in my mind it was like
a million years in between.

After the first time
these exact words popped into my head:

'Just take it.'

And then he ran off,

and I was just left there.

I wanted to know who in God's name
would ever do that

to another human being.

I had to be able to look somebody
in the eye

and know who would ever do that
to another human being.

Every six month,
the former State Supreme Court Judge

organizes this circle
of restorative justice.

Each time, new prisoners
and new crime victims can participate.

Tanya, I'm in prison for armed robbery.

Since you told your story,

I thought, it's not the stuff
that you physically take away

but the stuff that you emotionally
and spiritually take away.

Because that stuff
can never, ever be replaced...

and I'm sorry for taking the stuff
that can't be replaced...

way more than I'm sorry
for taking the stuff that can. Thank you.

This is one of those moments that I feel

well, I feel terrified.

The reason is,
when I hear stories like this,

it brings me back
to all the people that I have harmed.

Over the past few years...

I always thought when I first got
incarcerated that I only had one victim

and that was the person that I shot.


after so many years, I started realizing
that I have had countless victims.

From his own police...

coworkers, everybody in the city,
county, neighboring cities.

I took the security away
from a whole city.

And it's...

It's something that I'm never gonna
be able to make amends for.

But I know stuff like this,
this right here,

is the only honorable thing
that I can do.

It is too late, actually. It is too late.

During the last month
the final decision was taken.

I can't just say,
there was a date or whatever.

But I still considered

sending him a message
up to a week ago.

Or maybe less.

I don't want to risk where I am today.

And I don't need
to have the disappointment.

Now that I've decided not to meet him...

it is a decision
that I have to close the door.

And if I were going
to send him a message,

I couldn't close that door.

I would still have been waiting
on some reaction.

I think that at some point
that process would have been good,

but it's too late to put it in now,

and as long as I
don't have anything to gain from it,

I can't do it.

Erik says he doesn't care
whether Stian sees footage of him or not.

But Stian attaches importance to it,
wanted to learn how Erik responds

to his readiness for a meeting.

When this opportunity came,

that I could meet
Ingrid-Elizabeth's murderer,

I had to realize and think
how would that affect me...

what would that do for me.

And then I finally got to the decision

that he had nothing to contribute.

That was a step in removing him from me.

And that was very important,

and actually a relief.

That was a relief.

To me this project has meant

a moving forward
more than I had been able to

with any of the other things
I've done or help I've had.

So that's why it's a relief.

Of course I was furious.

I was angry at a group
I didn't know much about.

I often wondered in my fantasies:

What if I had been with him?

Could we have fought them back?

There is still a lot of anger
to this day.

But nobody to address.

Was your father armed?


He didn't even have
an official car that day.

As a diplomat I thought maybe...
- No!

He went innocently home by taxi.

He didn't want
to have the official car wait.

And this soft spot was used against him.

They must have listened
to the taxi radio,

waited for him at the front door

and just run at him with the gun
and shot him.

As I say, it was never...

the intention of the original RAF

to just kill people, politicians,


To just shoot them down like that.

I would also
be deeply frustrated and hurt.

To you it's a cut-and-dried thing

that those people were allied to the RAF?

You have to assume it,
given the letter claiming responsibility.

A letter claiming responsibility...
- Everything else is uncertain.

Forging was my profession.

I could easily forge such a letter.

The very fact that it's...
How long is it?

Ten pages... that says it all.

Apparently typed with the same machine

as the one used for the letter...
- Ah!

It's from back then.
- ... relating to Schleyer's kidnapping.

I am one of the founding members
of the RAF.

First generation,

and in this regard

I feel responsible
for everything that happened

in the name of the RAF.

But also...

There was some kind of...

mutual agreement

not to incriminate anybody...

and therefore also not...

to contribute to resolution
for this reason.

That was the general agreement,

and nearly everyone kept their word:

Not to blabber to the authorities.

I can't say if this still concerns
surviving convicts or ex-convicts.

They alone know that.

So the question becomes,
why would they now talk about it?

To retrospectively incriminate
themselves or others?

Because it's what
a plausible renunciation involves.

Murder has no statute of limitations.

The way I see it, solving the crime
won't bring the victims back to life.

But it's a requirement
that should be taken seriously.

And also by those who say:

'Maybe all this was wrong.'

It would be a small contribution

by way of responding to this need

to know more about what occurred.

But if...

But if someone comes along now

and says, it was me who did it,
he will go to jail for life.

Without any chance of a pardon.

So that...

That's something...

Without the testimonies of group-members,

there isn't much hope, anyway.
- If they did exist...

these offenders...

Assuming they come from this environment,

they would have to be given an offer.

Immunity from prosecution.
- Maybe...

There would have to be an offer.

What chances do you see

for the resolution
of these 3rd generation RAF incidents

about which we know so little?

I have the feeling
there is a pact of silence

between officials and offenders.

To my knowledge, ex-RAF convicts
have never felt the need

to again have a sit-down

and come up with a political analysis
that is actually comprehensible.

One in which, maybe,

I don't know,

compromises would be demanded
from the state.

By way of de-escalation.

My girlfriend, Petra Schelm,
was shot on the run...

in Hamburg.

There was this raid
for BMW cars.

Police locked everything down.

Unluckily, Petra was traveling in a BMW.

There was a new comrade with her.

A policeman at a barrier
asked her to stop,

she tried to skirt around it.

Then came the helicopters,

and they both jumped out of the car
and ran in different directions.

She ran through this backyard...

and was shot in the back of the head.

My whole world collapsed.

I thought,
how can life carry on at all?

Of course I was furious.

After that I was always armed.

It always...

escalates like that.

A spiral of violence.

In the end, Patrick and Manfred
have the impression

that it would make sense to get other
RAF victims and perpetrators together

as they have done.

The tape is very fuzzy and grainy.

The shooter
has on a hoodie over his head.

I've seen the tape
and it's nota clear tape.

That's him getting a soda.

He walks the same damned way.
Ma, you saw that?

For Darryl's family, the deceased,
they have a great loss.

So I feel for them
but there's nothing I could do about it.

Admit it!
That's all, just admit it.

You need to admit it.

I don't care how much forgiveness
you're supposed to have for a person.

I don't think
I could forgive him that much.

I could forgive him enough
so I could lead my life,

but other than that, uh-uh.

I'm glad he's not out.

I'm glad they don't have that system
like they got in Norway.

It would really hurt me
to know that he could come out of jail

because it's a holiday
to be with his family.

Meanwhile, I have to go to the grave
to be with my child.

That's not right.

I don't know
who made that law over there.

I thank God they don't do it here.

You heard him say:

'He wouldn't wanna be here.
Jail is no place to be.'

Okay, but he deserves to be in hell.

He doesn't only deserves to be in jail.
He deserves to be in hell.

That's what he deserves.

That would be a fitting punishment

to know that he's going to hell
for the rest of his life.

That's what I would want to know.
- Mom, turn it down.

The rice is not in here yet, Lisa.
The water has to boil.

Yeah, that's what I would wish. Yeah.

This is what it is.
As far as being a victim and a survivor.

Everything is always conflicting.

One minute you're a victim
and one minute you're a survivor.

One minute you understand how he
could do it and the other you hate him.

The one minute you wanna forgive him,
the one minute you never want to.

You're always in this constant battle
trying to understand it.

I, as a person, have to constantly feel
like this conflicting feeling.

I don't want to hate anybody. I swear.

I don't want to hate anybody.

You pray that you're able
to forgive somebody after they hurt you

you have to carry around this heaviness.

So, you want to forgive the person
as much as you want to.

You want to,
from the bottom of the heart you want to.

But then
it's like you're fighting yourself.

Because it's like, if you forgive him,

do you not love your brother anymore?
You feel like...

You're just letting it go,
like, he's dead,

now you've forgiven that person
and now you move on.

But does forgiving him mean like

you say it was okay to kill my brother?

Because in a way
that's what forgiveness says.

And it's hard to say that.
It's hard. It's so hard to just say:

'Oh, I forgive you.'

I forgive you for what?
For killing my brother?

I don't forgive you.
I don't. I don't know how to.

It's okay to step on my shoe,

but it's not okay to kill somebody.
It's not.

And for them to never live again.

Erik is now living on his own
in the new house.

He is considering selling the house
and working abroad for a while.

I think the loss and the grief...

That will never go away.

It can get more distant,
but it will never go away.

I had a picture once

out at the graveyard

where there is a mountain behind it.

I felt that she was sitting on top
viewing everything.

That's a picture I have in my head.

You heard her say anything?


I'm embarrassed because of who I am

and how I might think
that they will see me...

as a murderer, as a cold-blooded killer.

Maybe deep, deep inside I will also
have the same thought about myself.

And I hope

if there will be a situation where

we might stumble upon each other

and that I will await eye contact

that he will know I will await it
because I'm the person who is scared

and embarrassed
because of the whole situation.

It's not Erik that should be scared.

I've spoken to many people

who were responsible
for other people's lives

and at the end some months before
people are having their parole,

they were all like big people

with a lot of muscles
and an angry look on their face.

They were all scared before they were
released because of this embarrassment.

To see their own reflection
in other people's eyes.

I think that's also a great fear.

Lisa has begun work in
the City of New York's legal department.

Once she completes college
she will study law.

I've met people who have committed
murders and not all of them are the same.

He just happens to be a selfish person.

I'm gonna be me.
I have to keep going, keep moving on.

And do everything in my power
like it is my life's goal

just to have black guys succeed.

So maybe if I could do something
in my power

to become a politician, to be a mayor,
to be anything, an activist, whatever,

to help stop this ever from happening
again, then that's enough for me.

I don't expect nothing else
from him and nobody else.

I'm gonna tell you this story,
my favorite forgiveness story

which comes out
of a victim-offender dialogue.

A friend of mine facilitated it.

They were talking, and they went through
the horror of the crime,

his background and what happened.

And then they started talking
to each other more as human to human.

They both had
native American blood in them.

They started talking about how
in the native tradition,

you really love mother earth,
sunrises and sunsets,

and animals
and all that interconnectedness

and they were talking about all that.

At some point the victim asked
to see the facilitator in the hall way.

The victim said to the facilitator:

'I was really hoping I could tell him
I forgive him today and I can't.

I just can't.
What should I tell him?'

My friend told him
what we always tell people,

you can either tell him nothing
or you tell him the truth.

She looked at him and said:

'I was really hoping
to say I forgive you,

but I am not ready to do that.'

He said the most beautiful thing.

It was the gift of him understanding
her pain and what this was about.

He looked at her and said:

'I would never expect you
to forgive me for what I did,

but if you ever decide to forgive me

you need not tell me,

just go to a hill site
and watch the sunset for both of us.'

Restorative justice
helps to get beyond the strict separation

of offender and victim.

Nevertheless, restorative justice
is still an unknown territory.

Perhaps forgiveness
is a change of perspective:

Choosing from what has happened to you
to forge a new life.