Beuys (2017) - full transcript
A documentary about the 20th century German sculptor and performance artist Joseph Beuys.
Hello.
It's just like Hollywood here.
The anonymous viewer
is back there, yeah?
I mean if you're...
Let's say you're standing
in front of a group of people.
Then it's best to reach them
all at the same time.
That's best.
You have an idea
of what's going on
inside of people.
Some people
are very good at that.
They have this special talent.
For example,
they walk into a room
and can instantly sense
the inner questions
of everyone present.
I mean it's...
There's been a lot of that.
That's it!
Beuys speaking.
Good morning, Mr. Beuys.
Good morning.
Our colleague
from Midday Journal
to Professor Joseph Beuys.
Mr. Beuys, how popular
would you say you are?
How should I know?
What do you want me to say?
Do you wank me to say
"Force 12" or something?
Why not express it
in wind force?
All right,
so I'd say I've reached
the end of the scale,
about hurricane force.
And as you know,
storm comes before hurricane.
Mr. Beuys, thank you very much
and I wish you
continuing success.
It was meant to be an event
and that's what it is.
A German event for New York.
Beuys is here and
everybody knows it.
Joseph Beuys
is exhibiting his art
at the Guggenheim Museum
and New York's press
is doing all it can
to help explain it.
...that make fun of this whole
idea of your being an artist.
If we could realize
these objectives...
Hanging, lying and standing
on a 432-meter continuous ramp
is almost his entire output
of graphic art and sculpture.
Waiting upstairs
are the felt-covered piano
from 1966,
as well as the "Fat Chair"
and the "Honey Pump."
"Forget the conventional
idea of art.
Anyone can be an artist.
Anything can be art,
especially anything
that conserves energy."
This is the shortcut formula
for art.
Where Beuys is concerned,
the basic philosophy
is this attempt to demonstrate
how far you can push sculpture
as a means of communication.
Not as sculpture itself,
but as a vehicle for all these
different themes.
Well, it was
an extraordinary feeling
to meet someone
of a different generation,
a different nationality,
a different background
completely
who felt so completely
on the same wavelength.
Just very, very
extraordinary empathy...
in language and ideas.
It was wonderful to be
working with someone
whose range of reference
was so wide, you know.
And he was at the top
of what he wanted to do.
He was riding the world.
He was getting out
beyond the reach of the fatal.
The magazine Capital
named him Number 1
in the international
art business,
ousting Warhol and Rauschenberg
from the top positions.
When did they let him out of the hospital?
Do you know when?
It's like the remnants of a construction site.
I was disappointed.
It was fascinating.
The felt piano
was more accessible
than other objects.
For me, it's a new way
of thinking about art.
...- but it stays the same?
- Right. You empty it.
You drink the contents
and throw away the cap.
That's what's left.
But you're aware
that you're moving away from
the traditional concept of art?
Yes, of course...
And you really don't care
that people say,
"What Beuys is doing
has nothing to do with art."
Or do you...?
Of course I don't care.
Art, yes, but in a totally
different sense.
The concept of what art is
has expanded to such a degree
that, for me,
there's nothing left of it.
But within
a comprehensive system
it's possible that
a traditional concept of art
might be able to keep its place,
in a hermetically sealed form.
It would circle around
like an atom,
somewhere inside this system.
But the concept of art
has been expanded so far
that every
normal situation is art.
Every situation
or action...?
Yes.
It's no longer an object
that you hang on a wall...
Now if one takes this position
of an expanded concept of art,
which is exactly
my position anyway,
most people will regard it
as esoteric,
insane, remote,
marginal, peripheral...
And so on and so forth.
That's obvious.
Mr. Beuys...
At last year's
art fair in Cologne,
you exhibited a work
that consisted of
a Volkswagen bus...
out of which are coming
a large number...
Maybe 20,
correct me if I'm wrong...
40!
...40 small sleds,
all of them
exactly the same,
and I found it amusing.
That isn't
what I wanted to say...
But that's good!
No!
But that's great!
Why not?
But...
Do you want to stamp out
laughter and fun,
to have a revolution
without laughter?
- I have a specific question...
- I want to get my money's worth
out of this revolution!
I believe you.
Is that...?
And I want others
to get their money's worth!
I believe you.
But I want to ask you...
Why didn't you use
baby buggies?
Why not?
Because I chose the subject.
You should do something
with baby buggies!
And see if you
can make something
that interests people!
Max Bill...
I agree with Mr. Beuys
that we're here to think.
But it's not necessary
to think until daybreak.
So...
If we take what Picasso said,
"The purpose of art is not
to decorate our apartments,
it's a weapon
against the enemy."
Who is the enemy?
Professor Gehlen,
you said the boundaries
of art had expanded enormously
and that you no longer
feel provoked by art.
Do you feel challenged
by his works,
or do you see his art,
or anti-art,
as a stimulating element? Or...
What's my work
got to do with anything?
It's irrelevant.
We're talking about a theory.
We're talking about something
far beyond my work.
Let's throw my work
out of the window!
And your work as well!
Maybe...
- What is it you want?
- I want to expand people's consciousness,
especially regarding
the current political situation.
Okay...
I don't believe we live
in a democracy.
I don't believe we're taught
to be free human beings
due to our party-political
bureaucracy.
- I'm willing to provoke
right now!
- Me, too!
First of all, I want to return
to the original topic.
If you want to expand or change
people's consciousness,
- you must know
in which direction.
That's why I'm prepared
to talk until daybreak.
No, tell us now!
Aha, in one sentence.
Now!
People don't understand you?
I always say that people
understand me very well.
But they're afraid of it?
No.
But...
But then we need to...
It's not a bad thing
if people get aggressive.
Let them be aggressive.
At least that gets you
talking to them.
You have to provoke it.
Provocation always causes
something to come alive.
Maybe they smash
their china at home.
Or maybe they call me up
on the phone.
It always happens
after I've been on TV,
"Idiot!"
They call you at home?
Sure,
whenever I've been on TV.
"Asshole!"
Yes... Just a second...
For many people, art means
the freedom of randomness,
"Ah, art.
I can do whatever I want."
But what's the point of art
if nothing comes of it?
So whenever people
ask me if I'm an artist,
I say, "Oh, cut the crap."
I'm not here
to decorate these foul,
moldering, stinking systems.
I'm not an artist at all.
Except if we say
that everyone is an artist.
I buy into that, but only then.
I never said everyone is a poet,
a painter, a sculptor.
I mean social art when I say
everyone is an artist.
I find what you're saying
to be terribly abstract
and intellectual...
No.
I'm talking about
the emergence of a new art
where everyone
not only can participate
but must participate.
He was a totally
reasonable person,
not at all strange or freakish.
To me he was always
totally reasonable.
The opposite
of what everyone else said.
"Crazy," "strange," "peculiar."
He was the first
sane person I'd ever met.
He was totally sane.
And right after our first
one-on-one conversation
at documenta, I knew,
"You can trust him completely."
I thought that was great.
It had nothing to do
with his aura.
I just thought he was someone
who was surrounded and
courted by people and...
And then he had this incredible,
instinctive self-assurance
and this penetrating gaze.
And...
And a really sharp mind.
You need both,
otherwise there's no point.
You're just a dreamer.
But he wasn't.
He was and he wasn't
at the same time.
I don't know how anyone
can stand that.
He was totally consistent
in his words and actions.
FOR THE DOCUMENTA
7,000 OAKS
You're serious?
If I say I'm going
to plant 7,000 oaks, then
I'm going to plant 7,000 oaks.
I think the project
will take at least three years.
Thank you, Mr. Beuys.
- You know this project?
- Yeah.
It started--
There is a small detail
and illustrates a little bit
my understanding of art.
I was invited very often
to the documenta.
I was already invited
in the '60s.
I participated with a sculpture.
How would you help someone
who's dumbfounded by your work
to understand it better?
I would show him
the two utensils,
a spoon and a fork,
and invite him
to eat the object.
Then I was again
invited in 1972.
So I told them,
"Yes, it's very nice
to be invited,
but I will not bring
a work of art."
I'll bring the organization
for direct democracy.
During the 100 days
of the documenta,
you're spending 10 hours a day
here in your office.
You speak with everyone,
you answer every question...
There was an office, just daily,
permanently discussions,
and permanently seminars
on the necessity
to change the system.
But there was
no artwork at all.
At the heart
of the documenta, several
hectoliters of bee honey
pulsate through
an extensive system of veins.
"The Honey Pump
in the Workplace."
And now, the last documenta,
again I was invited.
So I said, "No,
I'm not even interested
to go into the building.
I'll go completely outside
in town.
I will work with the people
in Kassel and plant 7,000 oaks."
The 7,000 trees in Kassel
each have a rock,
so it's a tree monument.
Every tree has
a kind of opposite pole.
The tree keeps growing taller,
the rock stays as it is.
I wanted to juxtapose
these two things.
So that over
the course of time...
the proportions
change constantly.
AN IDEA IS TAKING ROOT
SET YOUR ROCK ROLLING
If you take the 7,000 Oaks,
which is one of
the most incredible works
of the 20th century,
Beuys assumed
that all these people who had
a commercial interest in him,
who had bought his work
or were living from his work
as gallerists,
in the buying and selling of it,
that they would contribute
massively to this huge project.
Seven thousand oaks,
you know, and the stones.
That's a lot of capital
and a lot of ongoing costs.
His trips to Japan
trying to raise the money
for that-- that project,
they were very intense
in those times.
He did say about the trip
to Japan, you know, they really
wanted their money's worth.
Business, take one.
"A" mark.
Action!
He did advertisements
for whiskey.
He did endless lectures.
Still anything to sign?
Well, I think, uh--
How do you see yourself
as a, in one way,
critic of the system,
and another way,
also like any other person,
participant in the system.
'Cause I think it's, uh--
No, it's not my role
to criticize.
My role is to give examples.
Because most of the artists
are not interested to struggle.
Just to come through with
another understanding of art,
which is related
to everybody's working place,
to everybody's problem.
There is no theory developed
within the artists
and within the art.
Also not within the art critics.
Leave away the galleries,
which are only caring for
a kind of transfer.
Let's say market processes
and so on.
So I see there is no really
organic development of art
in our society.
Until the art and the artists
don't develop another theory,
which is, uh--
which describes
the future society
beyond capitalistic
and communistic systems...
until then, there is no hope
to discuss in an interesting way
the role of the art
and what the structure
of the art in society.
Well, I must say, Joseph,
and that will last
to the next documenta.
- It may last forever.
- Forever.
And when the last stone
will disappear from this place,
it says the last
of the 7,000 oaks is planted.
7,000 OAKS
I'd like to talk
a little more about another
one of your influences,
your biography, your life.
If I understand correctly,
it's more than just
a personal affair for you.
What does your personal story
have to do with your art?
Is your art as autobiographical
as is sometimes claimed?
You're originally
from Kleve.
Yeah.
You're the son
of a civil servant
who went on to own
a fertilizer business,
I believe.
So you weren't really
predestined to be an artist,
especially not with your
family background.
That's right, I wasn't.
My parents would've
preferred me to work in
the margarine factory in Kleve.
Why did they want you to work
in the margarine factory?
Because it was the easiest way
to get a good job,
because it was on a par
with being a civil servant.
My parents wanted me to go there
because they thought,
"Whatever will become of him?"
But he did say he felt
like a stranger
in his parents' house.
There was something
missing there.
He felt no warmth there,
not even toward his mother.
Not really...
Theirs was a purely
pragmatic relationship...
That's how I imagine it,
knowing him.
But what he felt deep down,
that was something else.
He said that his parents
rather neglected him,
that they left him
to his own devices.
But instead of being sad
about it,
he was proud of it.
It says a lot about him.
That's normally seen as a flaw,
but for him it was
a source of strength,
being left alone, being free,
going off into the fields.
Hasn't your appearance also
become something of a cliché?
Your famous hat,
for example?
Yes.
Does the hat have
a protective function,
or is it simply
a trademark?
It also has
a protective function.
So you protect
your head with it.
Yes, I protect my head.
You were seriously wounded
several times during the war.
And you once...
Correct.
...crashed with
your plane, in '43.
Yes.
And you said,
"It's been drafty up there
ever since.
Actually,
I've got a screw loose."
Correct.
I also said that
I was shot into shape.
Do you remember the crash,
or did it happen
so quickly that...?
I remember the plane going down.
I said,
"Let's get out, let's jump."
So there were other
people in the plane?
Yes, one other man.
And he died?
There was nothing
left of him.
Apart from a few pieces of bone,
everything was...
Yes, well...
I remember hearing
the voices of the Tatars.
I remember them finding me
and standing around me.
But then I lost consciousness.
All the things I remember
happened when I was
only partly conscious,
because I didn't regain
consciousness for about 12 days.
When I came to, I was in
a German hospital in the Crimea.
I'd like to ask you
about that war period
and how it began to manifest
itself in works of art.
When I was wounded very heavily,
that such tribes found me,
and belabored my body
with this kind of fat.
So they took me out
of this crash heap
of crashed airplane,
brought me into a felt tent
wrapped me with
a kind of fat and tallow
as an ointment to keep me warm.
Is that true?
True?
It's an event during the war.
Do you fantasize?
I mean, one shouldn't
mix this thing, because fantasy
itself is very positive.
It doesn't matter.
It's only his interpretation of it anyway.
You don't fantasize.
Was that the answer?
And I think the philosophy
of Zeige define Wunde
is at the very core
of Beuys's work.
And you can look at it
in many different levels.
First of all,
the wound of having
separated instinct and logic
in our mentality.
We're all wounded
by that split, you know?
And he often used
the double images.
It shouldn't be
literally interpreted.
But, you know,
somewhere thinking about that.
And then going back
in his own autobiography,
the experience of the war.
Not the literal wound.
You recover from
a literal wound,
but coming back home
to a totally devastated country.
ACADEMY OF ARTS
Beuys was a very slim,
very skinny young man...
with a face
that you never forgot.
It was somewhat deformed
as a result of one
of the crashes.
He'd suffered a broken nose
as well as injuries
to his skull.
And...
But he was a man
with tremendous charisma,
who radiated
a tremendous warmth.
KLEVE, FEBRUARY 28,1957
"After not having
visited Beuys for a long time,
I called on him today.
He was going through
another phase
of neither washing
nor putting on any clothes.
He's abandoning himself
more and more,
as an artist too.
How often he weeps,
says he's going to leave,
go somewhere, forever."
It probably had something to do
with the fact
that he was undernourished.
And also with his total
lack of success.
In any event,
that was the...
That was the time
when he sank into the quagmire
of his own inner misery.
"The chief resident spoke
about the examination in Essen.
As I understood it,
he'd diagnosed Beuys
as being incurable."
He stayed there all summer.
He stayed in my room,
and when he was...
When he was depressed,
he hardly responded.
And during the worst periods,
he hardly ever left his room,
not even for a meal.
And on his better days...
he'd spend the whole day
outside with us
from morning till evening,
in the meadows or fields.
And then we told him
he should do something again,
at all costs.
He said,
"I'm finished with art.
I don't want anything more
to do with it."
I said,
"You can't carry on like this."
And then my mother went up
to his room and knocked
on the door, "Mr. Beuys?"
But Mr. Beuys didn't want
to come out, and she said,
"I want to talk to you,
open the door," which he did.
And then she appealed
to his conscience.
And she told him
that his gift was also
an obligation, a duty
toward the spirit
that had given him that gift.
After you graduated
from art school,
you withdrew to the countryside
for ten years.
Yes, I didn't feel the need
to be part
of the contemporary art scene.
When did you decide
to start doing performance art?
I think it developed
quite organically
from my aim to expand
the boundaries of art.
Beuys had to create
a basis for himself
in order to overcome
this crisis.
He needed a pedestal
to stand on,
rather like
the Archimedean point,
"Give me a place to stand
and I'll move the Earth."
But it was also
a spiritual basis...
his theory
of "social sculpture."
How he did that,
it's something I...
"How is a figure,
a form created?"
"Where does the form come from?
What is form?"
Yes, that's interesting.
Certainly, when I began...
And I'm referring
to my drawings again...
I was actually...
How can I put it?
I was feeling my way around.
I was groping about.
Almost as if I was
in the dark, you might say.
I had to touch something...
and often had to lay it down...
and examine it myself and see
if what I'd created might be
of interest to anyone at all.
But, above all, whether
what I'd created interested me.
My choice of materials
doesn't initially come
from a painterly impulse,
it comes from the wish
to create sculpture.
These materials
appeared at a time
when I was trying to break down
the term "sculpture"
into its components.
And felt appeared
as an insulating element
within the three configurations
of sculpture:
undetermined,
determined and movement.
The simplest thing
in the world,
when describing
the process of a production,
is called...
"undetermined starting point..."
"momentum" and "form."
FAT CORNER
Fat was the ideal material
for showing states of chaotic...
condition...
for showing movement
and the principle of form.
The principle of form appears
as a "fat corner" in a room.
In the fat,
you have an ideal opportunity
to show the components
of the sculpture
through the performance.
But I'm referring to sculpture
not as a static element,
but as a universal one.
I'd like to come back
to this idea of rationale.
If you make your "fat corners,"
for example...
- Yes.
- ...then you think about
making them beforehand.
They don't appear on their own,
without a rationale,
without thought.
The fat doesn't get
into the corner on its own.
Correct! All right,
that's what you think.
But I can't be so impatient.
Maybe you can
allow yourself to be.
All I can say is that
it's no longer possible
to talk about sculpture
in a conventional sense,
as if one knew what it was.
"A sculpture is something
that stands there,
like a coat rack.
It's spatial,
you can put a hat on it..."
I've tried to apply
the term to people,
so that the things
I find in sculpture
I can find in people too.
That's right.
You might laugh and think
how irrelevant that is.
But I've done it!
And now we come
to another concept that
plays an important part.
I suggest that the first product
of human creativity is thought,
and that because of this,
thought itself is sculpture.
Thoughts affect the world.
THOUGHT = SCULPTURE
"FREEDOM"
Düsseldorf Academy of Arts.
- A demon is destroying-
Joseph Beuys,
professor and sculptor.
He uses the academy to carry
his ideas out into society.
Fundamentally,
every human being
can be creative
if an opportunity
is created for him or her
to be able to be creative.
That's the question
of equal opportunity
in education.
Here, a professor
is putting his concept
of art into action,
a concept that breaks out
of the aesthetic realm
and applies
to all areas of life.
You have to ask yourself
how we've arrived at this
sorry state of affairs,
what's causing these ills?
We're forced to use
everything at our disposal.
In that sense,
it looks like a...
Beuys' class
had a high profile
and was very much tailored
to Beuys himself.
And I was one of the worst,
I was a true disciple of Beuys,
and that's the worst thing
that can happen
at any art academy,
when, instead of wanting
to do their own thing,
the students fall into line
with a particular idea.
If that happens
at an academy of art...
An is very sensitive
in that respect,
because it stinks of ideology
from the get-go.
There certainly
are people who have a great
affinity with my ideas,
but they aren't
we work together.
Beuys was with us in the class
from morning till evening.
There had never been
anything like it at the academy.
When he was talking to someone,
critiquing their work,
for example,
he always found a new point
that had to be worked on.
And you'd be thinking,
"Let's go get a coffee,
for God's sake,"
but he'd go on and on.
Do you distinguish
between Beuys the artist
and Beuys the teacher?
No, not at all.
And that's exactly
what's most important to me.
I've said again and again
that...
that I see this kind of work
as a product of art.
Friday, April 28, 10:30 a.m.
Joseph Beuys
outlines his latest project.
What I'd like to do
is create a kind
of cultural center
here in Dusseldorf
that can be interesting
for the whole world,
as a meeting point.
Then I'd like
to create a second tier:
the permanent
presentation of artists
from all around the world...
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
No, no, no, no, no.
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
No, no, no, no, no.
Chinese artists,
Russian artists,
Hungarian artists,
American artists,
Finnish artists, and so on.
So that we can overcome
the problem of the art market
by utilizing the time factor.
But there were
some professors there
who took offense at Beuys.
Because,
with his concept of freedom,
he'd hit a raw nerve
by,
without necessarily wanting to,
making his colleagues look bad.
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
No, no, no, no, no.
He'd hit a raw nerve
by basically saying:
"You're artists,
this is about art.
Art is total freedom
and self-determination.
And what are you?
Civil servants."
I want
to draw people's attention
to misguided policies,
and I'm no longer interested
in causing trouble
at the academy.
I want to inform people
about the true culprits
in our system.
I want to inform
and educate people.
That's the idea
people often laugh at me for:
"Can sculpture
change the world?"
JOSEPH BEUYS
& ABRAHAM DAVID CHRISTIAN
DIRECT DEMOCRACY VIA REFERENDA
The documenta was over,
and the new semester
began the next day.
All the bigwigs from
the government of North
Rhine-Westphalia were invited.
And Joseph Beuys stood up
in front of them
and made a speech
to them in grunts.
I don't think it would've
occurred to anyone to laugh.
It was too dangerous.
IS THIS THE CHOP
FOR ART PROFESSOR BEUYS?
EIGHT COLLEAGUES
MUTINY AGAINST HIM
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
TROUBLE WITH BEUYS
No, no, no, no.
I protested against
the situation
that 500 people were demanding
an educational place
where they could
develop their abilities,
and the state says,
"No. We can only take ten.
So make a selection."
And so the professors
took the students,
heaps of things,
Look, oh, not interested.
Ah.
And I took every student
into my class.
Which resulted
I had about 400 students
in my class.
But that was a big riot.
For the state it was a riot.
Students at the Academy of Arts
in Düsseldorf
demonstrate for one
of their teachers,
Professor Joseph Beuys.
NO REPLACEMENT FOR BEUYS
How do you judge the general
situation at the academy?
It's pretty chaotic.
But we didn't cause this chaos,
it was those in authority
in the cultural bureaucracy.
Let's talk about what happened.
Along with 54 applicants
who'd been turned down
by the academy,
you occupied its offices.
What did you hope
to achieve by this?
I wanted to very calmly
see to it
that these students,
who already attend my class,
should be enrolled.
On October 5, we were informed
that it was
Professor Beuys' intention,
as of October 10,
to remain
in the academy's offices
for a prolonged duration.
The letter to Mr. Beuys,
which was written by proxy
for the undersecretary,
had been agreed on by me,
and in it, it was pointed out
to Professor Beuys
that, in spite of our sympathy
for his personal style,
we could not accept
unlawful acts
and that his status
as a state employee
was in question.
NO REPLACEMENT FOR BEUYS
The Minister for Science
has dismissed you without
prior notice for "trespassing."
Do you think the Minister
will revoke your dismissal?
I don't think so. Maybe.
I'll leave it open.
He could at least
have talked to me,
in my opinion.
Why let something happen
that resulted in huge effort
and expense?
The police operation,
for example?
Wouldn't it have been
more economical to talk to me?
What are your plans now?
You've been
officially dismissed.
What do you think about that?
How do you feel now?
Like Don Quixote, who...?
No, not at all.
Or like...
Professor,
what are the main points
of your dispute?
The cultural scene has been destroyed to a large extent, again by Mr.
Rau.
Due to his interference
in the Academy of Arts,
its development,
the creation of new ideas,
as well as the appearance
of foreign artists
here in Dusseldorf
have been ruined.
That's a fact.
Is it really so dramatic?
The accumulation
of these events
results in a kind of experience
that makes you want
to leave this city
as quickly as possible.
The question is...
Shall we take a short break?
What conclusions
have you drawn from it
for your future?
I'm treating myself
solely through the character
of my work.
I've proposed the theory...
"I Nourish Myself
by Wasting Energy."
Yes. Yes, that's my method.
FOR ME THERE'S
NO SUCH THING AS WEEKENDS
Joseph, do you think
you've chosen the right time
to come to America
and talk about your ideas
on art and politics,
after turning down
almost every invitation from
America in the last 10 years?
Would you like
to smoke a cigar first?
Beuys could embolden you
by example.
He had a vision.
He wanted something.
We're really into
step-by-step plans,
as you know.
So let's begin casually
with step one. Casually...
He was someone
who saw in every person
a potential partner
for his ideas,
for his ideas.
And he didn't care where someone
came from or what they'd done.
He said of himself
that his attitude was,
"Give people time
and they'll come around."
Because I've now
reached the point
where it's clear to me
that I won't put on the kind
of exhibition in America
that's been the norm
in the past...
and that there's
a lot of interest here now
in these complex ideas
with a political dimension.
Uh, it's my pleasure
to give you Joseph Beuys.
Uh, I've been asked also to say
that Mr. Beuys
is willing to stay as long
as you're willing to stay.
Mr. Beuys.
To arrive at an understanding
of art,
leads immediately to the really
practical points of life,
to the people,
to the human being.
It is an anthropological
dimension of the art.
And now we can slowly begin
with such an area
to overcome modern art.
- Yes, that's my confession.
- Nobody has to believe.
I learned
a huge amount from him,
including how to cope
with being insulted and reviled.
...of art that does not
transform society.
How to keep trying and
trying again, starting afresh.
And, of course,
he was attacked by many people
who didn't like the idea
of an artist interfering
with social issues.
I think now--
Oh, yes. Another question.
But certainly
there are some things that
it's necessary to do in life
that have nothing
to do with art.
Yeah, perhaps
in your understanding.
But if--
But if you and I
are to communicate effectively,
we must have
some common understanding
of what these terms mean.
Yeah, sure.
And if it's possible for you
to give such an open, textured
sense to the term "art,"
then it's no longer possible
for me to understand
what you're saying.
Yeah, sure, it's possible.
Art is the only
revolutionary power,
because it is based
on humankind's creativity
and self-determination
and self-government.
Through the idea of art,
democracy could be
one day reality.
- Thank you, Joseph.
- Thank you.
We are speaking
about the possibility
to create a new world.
But the premise is
to create a new world,
is to cut away every tradition,
traditional views of ideology.
And we have to start
with another thing.
So to give a declaration
of the whole development
from Plato to Marx, let's say,
and to the necessity
to go further than Marx,
not only the idea of art
is radically changed,
in my point of view,
also the idea of capital
and economy
at the same time
is radically changed.
- Uh, Mr. B.
- Yeah.
The economy
that we're dealing with now
is an information based economy.
Those who control
the technologies of the world,
control the world.
How can we even begin to believe
that any basic social change
is going to take place,
when these realities
are in place and
are growing stronger?
Since the only problems
which people are facing,
this misuse of economy,
the power of the money
and the power of
the government, the states.
So eliminate the state.
That is the idea of art.
Away with such states
and such political parties
and such politicians.
To come up with a new
economical system,
another use of money,
a new credit system,
which gets ready
with basic problems.
Then the art would play
the most important role.
Beuys speaking.
So he went up into
René Block's art world space,
completely blocked off from it,
insulated in felt.
And the only dialogue he had
was with this American animal.
The additional element
was this symbol
of the abstract,
crystalline thinking
of how we organize
our economic power.
The Wall Sheet Journal.
And Beuys himself said
that the coyote controlled
the timing of everything he did.
The coyote himself was a shaman
in the sense that every animal
gets to grips with material
and knows how to manipulate
its surroundings.
We're not the only ones
who have that capacity.
The coyote was the scapegoat,
you know,
the embodiment of mischief
and all the malice
that the white settlers
attributed
to the Native American.
In New York, they would have
been thinking of that.
And the fact that he rejected
all dialogue with any of them,
the art world, the artists
and critics and everything,
and would only talk
to a scapegoated symbol
of the ancient culture
of the United States,
or pre United States, America.
That was controversial.
It was a rejection
of the art world, of New York,
of the States,
and of their whole culture.
And it was meant to be.
Beuys speaking...
Joseph Beuys,
both venerated and reviled,
is running for parliament.
In 1971, he founded
an organization for direct
democracy through referenda,
and he's totally serious
about his current
election campaign.
Serious about,
among other things, bringing
laughter into parliament.
Would you like
to become Chancellor?
Pardon?
Pardon?
Would you like
to become Chancellor?
Sure.
Sure, why not?
Yeah, that's the way it is...
Tonight we're going to discuss
the chances and limits of
politicization through art.
If I could determine what is,
then I could quickly
agree with you.
I don't want to keep
determining what is,
I want to get an idea
of what might be desirable
for people.
You talk about innovation
as if no one had ever
thought of it before...
You're just insinuating that...
Then let me speak
for five minutes.
Joseph Beuys...
You won't commit yourself.
That's your unbridled
liberalism.
That's no use
to political activists.
My desire for freedom.
Fine, I'd call it
something else.
But let me talk
about Beuys' political praxis.
I believe the term "politics,"
as it's used currently,
is what's preventing
genuine change.
Joseph Beuys, you're Germany's
most controversial artist.
But you're also a member
of the Green Party.
Are you serious about that?
Of course.
You have to achieve things
via a future-oriented movement.
The conference is open!
I would like to point out
that the process
of forming opinions
is incredibly laborious
for a young party
such as ourselves.
Beuys really didn't need that.
He got himself involved
with the formation of a party
and with everything
that went along with that.
You wouldn't believe
what torture that is.
Especially in the case
of a party that isn't a party,
where everything's
totally haywire.
no one is being rejected!
You had nature lovers colliding
with hard-core Marxists.
Then there were diehard Nazis
who had somehow
become acceptable because
of their holistic philosophy.
And then there were
the left-wingers from Hamburg.
Beuys dove right in.
We'll have to keep
working with it, of course.
It won't stop you
from continuing to work
with the Greens.
No, it won't stop me.
He really believed
in that movement,
in the founding
of the Green Party,
and Beuys said:
"We've witnessed
a historic day today."
He was so certain that
it was the anti-party party.
A Green Party program?
A program?
Green Party program?
Thanks.
How about you?
Maybe he'll give us
his autograph.
I think more of you
as an artist.
Hold on!
What do I get in return?
Will you vote
for the Green Party
if I draw a picture for you?
Casual elegance
reigned at Düsseldorf gallery
Denise René last night.
Andy Warhol,
pale, shy,
constantly searching
for Joseph Beuys,
who was nowhere to be seen.
Joseph Beuys,
who we're still waiting for,
has become such a politician
that he knows how
to make a dramatic entrance.
I remember driving back
from Brussels with him one time.
And I said...
Because we were all very tired,
we'd started out from Brussels
at five or six in the morning,
and during the journey back
he said,
"I've got to get back,
I can't stop for long."
So we took a lovely photo
of him at a roadhouse,
on which he wrote,
"The Man at the Main Lever."
And I think
the man at the main lever.
Beuys speaking.
Good morning, Mr. Beuys
in Düsseldorf.
Morning.
Beuys speaking.
Who called?
And during the journey he said,
"I've got so many appointments,
from now on I'll start
at four in the morning..."
Four in the morning.
"...or at five, or at six."
I thought,
"How long can anyone
keep that up?"
Beuys speaking.
I don't have time at the moment.
It's wearing me out,
but that's necessary.
Why is it necessary?
Sorry?
Why is it necessary?
Why've you got to
wear yourself out?
Everyone has to
wear them selves out.
It'd be bad
if they were good and died
without wearing themselves out.
Okay.
Everything has to be
used up anyway.
It doesn't matter
what profession you're in,
you have to wear yourself out.
You have to burn
yourself down to ashes,
otherwise there's no point.
If you're still good,
that's bad.
Then it's frustrating,
isn't it?
"Everything's still so good!"
And then you kick the bucket,
that's bad.
From this perspective,
not from another.
What are some things
you would like to accomplish
during your visit here?
But come back to it,
because you're very articulate.
You've gotta do it on your own.
I think I have to leave now.
No, if you have a question,
a last question, it's okay.
I remember it being
very summery...
and those river meadows and
the smell of the Rosa rugosa.
I can never smell that
without thinking of that.
Because there was a big chance
that he would die.
So I went over
and he was in the hospital...
on the Rhine.
I think it was more
the intensity with which
he wanted to follow his work.
And he knew
that you can't, uh--
If you fight and streben
against something like that,
you do more harm.
So he was being calm.
He actually invited
that photograph of him
with no hat on.
That was very brave of him
to ask for a portrait then.
In which area are you laziest?
Sorry?
In which area are you laziest?
Laziest?
Yes, laziest.
Maybe I don't understand
your question.
I just said...
A time always comes
when you're tempted
to retire from active life.
When you say,
"Maybe it would be better
if I went to Australia."
That's not a joke.
Is it?
You mustn't retire.
I'm not going to.
I'm not going to retire.
I'm not going to retire.
But if at some time I...
It really would be
a historical disaster.
That's why I'm not
going to retire.
I'm not going
to retire at all.
But you're bound
to say at some point,
"Kiss my ass!
I'm going to wander dreamily
around the world."
What would the alternative be?
The alternative would be
to carry on in a form where,
to a certain extent,
you're well-known.
To stubbornly carry on
doing the same thing.
I can see Beuys's loneliness
and his incredible sensitivity,
his porousness, his...
That...
That he was always inside
his wound, inside his hurt.
And that makes you admire
this incredible strength
even more,
which he used as an antidote,
his courage as well.
Mr. Beuys, I don't want
to mention your hat...
Mr. Beuys, you've now...
Mr. Beuys, what is art?
Beuys!
Do you feel comfortable
in your role
as an artist who's successful
in the institutional art world?
I mean, how do you feel
about that? Or--
See, art showed already
the impossibility to solve
such very important,
basic problems of humankind.
But that is not
the end of the art.
Now the art begins.
This is my objection.
I think that
the sensational character
lends to your remarks a force
that's strictly locutionary.
It's kind of empty rhetoric.
Yeah.
But as much I could do it,
I gave already the proofs.
There is not only sensation,
but it has to be sensation.
Otherwise, it would be
of no interest.
It has to be sensationally...
ONLY 2,272 DAYS
UNTIL THE END OF CAPITALISM
- Yes.
- Yes.
How to topple capitalism,
that's how I'd have to put it.
Yes.
NEXT TIME WE'LL NAME NAMES
AND IDEAS
Mr. Beuys, are you a radical?
Yes, I am.
A famous radical.
Is that possible?
It would be good
if radicals became famous
and people listened to them.
In '83, the Greens
were going full steam
and for the first time
they had a real chance
of getting into parliament.
And no one understood
why he kept going on
about the term "capital."
It was much too lofty,
even for the Greens.
And now I want to get
to the heart of the matter.
Because whenever
a democratic process
dares touch the actual nerve
of societal change,
the power relations
around money undermine
every attempt at democracy.
The power of money
must be broken.
Today money is
a tradable commodity
you can speculate with it.
So in the economic sphere,
money is an entity
that shouldn't be a commodity
but because it is a commodity
this character
must be brought into line
with the whole of democracy.
We went to the conference
and didn't think anything of it.
We thought...
Because Beuys
had been the top candidate
three years before.
And you sensed immediately
that the atmosphere
was really peculiar.
Who's still interested in you?
Who do you still provoke...?
Quiet, please!
Could you be quieter, please?
And some of the delegates
really went after him.
"Beuys, go off
and play with your fat!"
Or...
"Beuys,
you're costing us votes."
Please be quiet
in the hall, or we can't hear
anything up here.
We quickly
figured out that the candidates
had already been selected.
It was clear
he wasn't one of them.
He was being dropped
by his own people.
You don't fail, I mean,
the endeavor, the attempt,
trying to do something
is a success in itself.
There isn't an end
to all this, you know.
There isn't
a state of perfection...
or when it's all finished.
There's no point in me
standing up in front of someone,
or in front of lots of people...
without there being a question.
What's the point of just
foisting an issue on people?
Because they might not
even be interested in it.
I have to speak
in a way that I know
that there's something
inside of the people,
that there's a question
that I can try to answer,
that I can try
to solve together with them.
It's actually a joint task.