42 Up (1998) - full transcript

- I'm going to work in Woolworths.

- When I grow up, I
want to be an astronaut.

- When I get married, I'd
like to have two children.

- My heart's desire is to see my Daddy.

- I don't want to answer that.

- This is no
ordinary outing at the zoo,

it's a very special occasion.

We've brought these children together

for the very first time.

They're like any other
children except that they come

from startlingly different backgrounds.



- Stop it at once.

- We've brought
these children together

because we wanted a glimpse
of England in the year 2000.

The shop steward and the
executive of the year 2000

are now seven years old.

- In 1964, World
in Action made Seven Up.

We have been back to film these
children every seven years.

They are now 42.

- Is it important to fight?

Yes.

- Tony was brought
up in the East of London.

- I wanna be a jockey when I grow up,

yeah, I wanna be a jockey when I grow up.

- At 14, he
was already an apprentice



at Tommy Gosling's
racing stables in Epsom.

At 15, he left school.

- This is a photo finish
of when I rode at Newbury.

I'm the one with the white cap.

I was beaten a length and a half a third

and had a photo finish.

So, I took it out of the box
and kept it as a souvenir.

- It's only an eight.

- By 28, he'd
given up on horse racing.

- My greatest fulfilment in life,

when I rode at Kempton in the
same race as Lester Piggott.

I was a naive
wet-behind-the-ears apprentice.

All my years from seven, all my ambition

is fulfilled in one moment and
I eventually finished last.

Tailed off obviously, but didn't
make any difference to me.

Just to be part of it,
be with the man himself.

- What will you do

if you don't make it as a jockey?

- I don't know, if I
knew I couldn't be one,

I'd get out the game.

Wouldn't bother.

- What do you
think you would do then?

- Learn taxis.

- At 21, he
was on the Knowledge,

and by 28, he owned his own cab.

- We were on the way to Langans,

and all I can hear is
Alf Garnet, you know,

and it's the Labour Government
and your lot up here.

- Have you got a girlfriend?

- No.

- Would you
like to have a girlfriend?

- No.

You understand the Four Fs,

find 'em, feed 'em, and forget 'em.

The other F, I'll let you
use your own discrimination.

I mean, this one, I
tried to do the three Fs,

but I couldn't forget her.

- I went to a discotheque.

He was in the pub earlier
on and that afterwards,

we went to a discotheque
and Tony was down there,

and I just, from there
I just, that was it.

I couldn't get rid of him.

- We have our ups and downs,
no more than anyone else.

- I think you got to work at a marriage.

I think all marriages go through stages,

you can't stand each other,
you go through, you know,

I think, "Oh God, I hate
him I wish he'd get out."

I do.

- We've been to the edge of the cliff

and looked over a couple of times,

and we've always seemed
to sort of go back,

and we've sort of stayed the course,

but I must say it's
not easy being married.

Anyone who thinks it is, I
mean, it's quite difficult.

- In 1993, Tony
and Debbie left the East End

and moved to Woodford in Essex.

- Well, with the help of my neighbour,

I'm not really a
do-it-yourself type of guy.

He painted all the back of the house,

and we were gonna put a conservatory here.

If you look along here,

we've put a patio in
and a pond for the fish.

- Well, when we bought
it, it was very old.

This was two rooms and we've
knocked it completely out.

Refitted a kitchen,
put all new windows in,

new flooring, literally everything really.

Well, the fence we had a bit of luck there

'cause the next-door neighbour,

they paid for it and
they'd done all this end.

So I'd done, come in my favour
having a small bit done.

So, there's a blessing there,
but the only thing I ever done

was I planted them three trees,

and they seem to have grown in
the last three or four years.

- It has cost us a lot
of money to do it, yeah,

a lot of money.

Now, we're skint.

- Well, I think we overspent about,

oh, a colossal amount, thousands.

My overheads to keep everything going here

is at this present time astronomical.

- Are you gonna get out

of this financial hole?

- Yes, without question because
that is this is a millstone

around my neck at this time,

but it's nothing what
two years won't achieve

through hard work and determination.

- To help out,
Debbie works the day shift

in the cab, while Tony
does the night shift.

- Son, it's hard work out there.

- You're not reaching me yet.

- Not getting to you.
- No, you're not

getting to me, all right?

Now, be bigger, dominate me, all right?

- Son!
- At 28,

Tony was taking acting lessons.

Now, he supplements his
income with TV jobs.

- Oi!

- That's all I've got on me.

- Mate, if I had a pound for
every time I've heard that,

I'd be a rich man.

- Got the fare, haven't you?

- Yeah, just about.

- Would everybody
please sit round now

and get on with their work.

I don't want to see any backs to me.

Shouldn't be anybody turning around.

Tony, do you hear as well?

Get on with your work in front.

Tony.

Don't turn around again.

- There's only one ambition really.

I want a baby son and
if I see my baby son,

then I'll see my ambition fulfilled.

No one knows that, only you now.

This is Hackney Marshes and
the games are being played.

Mostly these are pub sides,

and I've been playing over
here for near 28, 30 years.

- So, you're a veteran.

- You might call me that, yeah.

- Who do you play with?

- My Nicky and I think
it's quite admirable

that his dad's in the
same side as his son.

- Tony and
Debbie have three children.

The eldest, Nicky works
as a French polisher.

- I wanted him
to go on the Knowledge

and become a cabbie.

I bought him a bike.

But I'm quite proud of
the way he's turned out.

I mean, he's a very respectable kid.

Very respectful towards
people and most of all,

he's done it all on his own terms.

- Perry, she's just
started secondary school.

She's a character, but
she's quite academic minded,

and hopefully, you know, she'll stay on.

- Hey Ref, come, yeah!

- Come on, let's
get on with it now!

- Another one.

- We got another 16 minutes left.

Let's go!

- There you go, straight
there, to your left.

- Jodi don't like school.

She's just coming up to now

that she'll be leaving school shortly.

I do feel that she's wasted a lot of years

in her secondary school.

I'm not saying that
it's the school's fault.

- Well, come on.
- Probably a lot of it

is her own fault, but you know,
and we have tried with her,

and we have tried to push her into it.

She's just, I think
she's a bit how Tony was.

She's just not interested in school,

which I feel she'll regret later on.

- Lovely.

I mean, I try to discipline
them in various areas,

but at the end of the day, it
is quite hard and difficult.

I like to stand up and suggest, you know,

lead with an iron fist,

but I haven't got the heart to do it,

and that's the truth in the matter.

- I have to do it.

And then if anything goes
wrong, it's my fault.

- A bird said to me the other day,

she said, "Ain't you small?"

So, I said, "But you're
ugly, at least I can grow."

And then I said, what
can they say to that,

they can't say nothing, can they?

- And why did
you fall in love with him?

- Don't know.

- I don't know how you've
put up with me for so long.

- I don't know.

Sometimes, I don't know how I stand him.

- I've been in positions, you know,

oh, it's hard to say in front
of Debbie, but it's true.

It's tempting.

You take the bait.

I go on holiday once a year with the boys,

to have a fling in to Spain, Magaluf,

and we have a golf holiday,
all against Debbie's will,

but it's true, and I get in
situations out there that,

you know, life is for living.

And I come back,

"Oh, I know what you've
been doing out there.

"You've been meeting all
them birds and whatever,"

and they look at ya as if to say,

"I know, but I don't want to know."

That's how it is.

I have often not gone through life

with one hand tied behind
my back and my character,

happy-go-lucky nature, and
I've been in positions,

and I've found myself caught in trouble.

I'm not proud at all to say this,

but the situations arise that
I've had regretful behaviour

at various times but.

- You got caught and that was it.

- You know, I'm not lying about the fact.

I mean, you can always cover
it up and suggest other things,

but it's, you know,
true and let it be true.

- You caught him?

- Yeah.

- What happened?

- Well, you know, it was touch and go

whether we carried on from it or not.

You know, we sort of went
through a very traumatic time.

- Then again, let who's never
sinned cast the first stone.

I mean, it just doesn't happen

with a taxi driver living in Essex.

It happens with MPs, et cetera, et cetera.

I mean, you know, I'm not
gonna hide behind any trees

and suggest, you know,
I am holier than thou,

which no doubt, I'm not.

All I am suggesting is that this

is what real life is all about.

If I've been caught with
my hand in the till,

that's fair enough, I'll
pay the consequences.

And the consequences is,

iron out the details and
the problem with my wife

and my marriage and hopefully eventually

get it in the right lane and
put it back on the tracks.

You know, it's...

- Why did you forgive him?

- Because at the time,

I felt that there was still something

in the relationship, you know,

and there was three children
involved here as well,

which is not easy when you've
got three young children,

and there was obviously still
something between me and Tony,

and it's not easy to walk away.

I could have walked away.

I felt, it's silly, but when it happened,

I felt very strong and I
could have walked away.

It's not been easy to try
again, to get over it, the hurt,

'cause I've never done it, and
I've never been unfaithful,

and that's what I've found really hurtful,

and I feel that I'm a good
wife and I didn't deserve it.

- All I understand is dogs,
prices, girls, Knowledge,

roads, streets, squares,
and Mum and Dad in love.

That's all I understand, that's
all I want to understand.

- Tell me about the family.

Are you fairly closely knit?

- I love them all.

There's not one that I don't love

more than another, other
than my mum obviously.

But your mum is the root of the tree,

you love your mum best.

- By the time he was 34,

both Tony's parents had died.

- I'm at the graveside,
I'm talking to her,

you know, of all things.

I've got all images running
through my mind saying like,

"Tony, go downstairs, get me five weights,

"you know, one and a penny,"
and I used to go in the shop,

she used to throw the
cotton in a hair curler

over the landing and I
used to tie the cigarettes

on this bit of cotton and
she used to pull 'em up,

and you'd see her in the end,

"Thanks, Tone see you
after school, be good,"

and that's the way it was.

Even now, I get emotionally
sentimental over my mum and dad.

It's just because I feel,

the weekends they could have had over here

in the later part of the life.

It would have been nice to know

that their last days were
with me type of thing,

but it wasn't to be.

The poshies, "Oh yes, oh
yes, oh yes," they're nuts.

Just have to touch 'em.

I don't want to change
because if I change,

it proves the other Tony
Walker was all fake.

You know, I'm not trying
to keep up with the Jones'

and make myself any more

than what I know I'm capable of doing.

But I mean, I can only go
so far, I'm only a cabbie.

I mean, I'm not exactly a movie star,

but I've done as well as I can go,

and I think this is about
the limitations for me now.

So, I'm happy with what I've got.

If anything else comes
along, it's a bonus.

- Tell me, do you
have any boyfriends, Suzi?

- Yes.

- Tell me about him.

- Well, he lives up in Scotland
and he's, I think he's 13,

and I'm rather lonely up there

because he usually goes to school,

but we used to play
till about half past six

when he comes home from school,

then we go in and then he
goes home to do his homework.

- Have you got
any boyfriends, Suzi?

What is your attitude towards
marriage for yourself?

- Well, I don't know, I haven't
given it a lot of thought

'cause I'm very, very cynical about it.

But then, you know, you
get a certain amount

of faith restored in it when, I mean,

I've got friends and their
parents are happily married,

and so it does put faith back into you.

But me myself, I'm very cynical about it.

- When I last saw
you at 21, you were nervous,

you were chain smoking, you were uptight,

and now you seem happy.

What's happened to you over
these last seven years?

- I suppose, Rupert.

I'll give you some credit.

- I'm now chain smoking.

- I think you can't just
walk through a marriage

and think once you get married,

it's all gonna be roses
and everything forever.

You know, you have, well
everybody has their rows,

but it's, we've never yet had a row

that we haven't managed to sort out.

It's very hard to actually say what it is

that goes on between a couple.

It's either there or it's not,

and maybe we're very lucky.

I mean, after 20 years,
we still seem to have it.

When I get married, I'd
like to have two children.

I'm not very children
minded at the moment.

I don't know if I ever will be.

- What do you think about them?

- Well, I don't like babies.

- What was the
biggest shocks to you

when you suddenly were
confronted with a small baby

that you had to be responsible for?

- Panic set in, I think,

that I wasn't going to be able to cope.

- At 28, Suzi had
two sons, Thomas and Oliver.

- I mean, I don't think

I'll have any more for the reason

that I will get pleasure out of these two,

but I can't see me going on and on and on.

- By 35, she
had a daughter, Laura.

- I don't want to.
- Very little has changed.

My life is probably very
much the same as it was then.

I've had another baby,

we've moved house and that's about all.

- Would you like having a nanny

to look after them, or do
you want to look after them?

- No, I want a nanny to look after them.

I've chosen to stay home
for the last 15 years

to bring up my children

because I wanted to be
the one that did it.

Tom is now 16 and he's
his own man really now.

He's suddenly got
confidence in himself now

and having been a very, quite a shy child,

he's now come out of himself
and he's his own person.

Oliver's very individual,

it's a sort of love/hate
relationship Oliver and I have.

We don't get on all the time,

but we still come through most things.

But it's been a hard battle for him.

He's got learning difficulties

and life hasn't dealt too
many easy cards for him,

and so it's a lot harder for him.

- C-O-N-T.

- Laura just seems
to take life in her stride.

I mean, she just takes it.

I'll give an easy one, always.

- A-L-W-A...

- And she's very easy going
and gets on with life.

Equal.

- E-Q-U.

- Tom will be away at university whatever

in another couple of years,

and they'll all get on
and make their own lives.

That's all.

The mid-40s is a crossroads for people

'cause their lives do change,

and I don't want to just suddenly find

when the children have gone,
I've got nothing to my life,

I'm not very good at sitting
around doing nothing.

I have to be doing something,

I have to have a goal or
something to try and achieve.

- The more she went

through the stages of bereavement,

the bigger the space became,

but the actual grief...

- Doesn't go away.

- Doesn't actually
go away ever, but just.

- I got into
bereavement counselling

about four years ago.

- Interestingly enough.

- It can be very
harrowing, it's very difficult,

which is why all counsellors
need a supervisor

because you come out
sometimes from a session

mentally and emotionally drained.

- 'Cause she was coming more
to terms with what happened.

- It's an extraordinary experience

when you meet someone who
is suffering terribly,

and over the months, you see them move on.

You see them get their
life back together again.

- At 28, Suzi's father died.

- It is terribly hard,

and even now, I still can't
believe my father's not here.

It's still sinking in, I think.

My mother had been ill before,

but when I started the course,

I didn't know quite how ill she was then,

and then we'd found out she
had fairly terminal cancer

when I was halfway through the course.

And I did wonder whether I could carry on

'cause it was quite difficult
going to the course every week

and listening to other people,
what they had gone through,

but in a strange way, it helped me.

- You know as well as I do

that if you've got a
complicated bereavement.

- So, I came through the course,

and my mother died just after that,

but I did find it a help doing it

'cause I'd just felt I wasn't alone.

And I think that's the whole point

of bereavement counselling,
is that people feel very alone

when they've lost someone
very close to them,

and a lot of people don't
have someone to turn to.

Well, with any child

going through their parents
splitting up aged 14,

you're at a very vulnerable
age and it does cut you up,

but you know, you get over it.

I never had a very close
relationship with my parents.

I didn't really know them very well,

but in the last few years of her life,

we had become closer and I
think that's what I resent,

that I lost here when I did
because I was just beginning

to really build a relationship with her.

- When he was 34,
Rupert made a big career move.

- I was a partner in quite a big law firm,

and I resigned from that
and set up my own company.

I tend to specialise in
refurbishing old buildings

and converting them into offices.

- It was a very difficult time

when Rupert was deciding to leave.

He's got a lot of
responsibilities with all of us,

and it's not easy just
starting off on your own.

- Do you ever worry

that the roof might fall in
and you'll be out of this?

- Yes, I mean it crosses my mind,

and this last year, it's quite, you know,

it's crossed my mind
quite hard that we might,

you know, we could lose this.

- I've never, ever
wanted to have a business

which was dependent on losing your house,

but I think ultimately
that can always happen.

- The gamble paid off

and the company's doing well.

What sort of things do you do?

- Ride, swim, play tennis, ping-pong.

I might play croquet, things like that.

I did have a privileged
background, but on the other hand,

I was sent away to
boarding school very young,

which I find very hard to cope with,

and I'm sure my parents did it

for what they felt was the right reason.

I just felt rejected,

which is why I never wanted to
force that onto my children.

- What do you
want most out of life?

- To be happy and get on with life.

I mean, I don't want to just sit back

and let it all whiz past.

You don't know how long
you've got your life for.

You could be run over by a bus tomorrow,

so you've got to make the most
of it while you've got it.

If I could have it over
again, I would change,

I would change my life from 14 to 21.

Those years were not good for me.

Like any other child with
divorced parents at 14,

I felt very lost, bewildered.

I would have made more of my education

instead of rather throwing it away

because I just thought I knew it all

and didn't want to be bothered.

But I can't turn the clock back,

so I just have to bury
that and think, "Well okay,

"it was a time in my life that
was unhappy," and move on.

- Two of the boys are coming

into that period of their lives.

Are you watchful of that for them?

- I am watchful of that,

but I hope they have a
more stable home life

than I had at that age,

and I don't take for granted the home life

that Rupert and I have
tried to build for them.

All I want is to be here long enough,

to be fit and healthy long enough,

to see my children grow up
to be independent people.

What I really couldn't cope with

was if I died before they were grown up.

It's the one thing I
think every parent dreads

is not living long enough

to see their children into adulthood.

Excellent!

- What do you
think about rich people?

- Well, not much.

- Tell me about them.

- Well, they think they can do everything

without you doing it as well.

- Symon was brought
up in a children's home,

the only child of a single parent.

- Rich people, they have
all different things.

They have everything they want,

whereas poor people,
they don't have nothing

and they know they haven't got nothing.

And so, they know they're
missing something.

- What are they missing?

- Well, I'm missing a
bike and a fishing rod.

20 years ago, when I was born,

you know an illegitimate child,

that's something that's
only whispered about,

people felt strongly
about it in those days,

but nowadays, it's not a serious matter.

The serious point is whether you stay

with somebody or you leave them.

Since 21, I've got married,
had a couple of kids.

Well, I don't think there's anybody else

I could have ever married expect Yvonne.

She's my life really
because we're together,

we have the children and everything.

- When did you
decide to have the five,

did you want to have them close together.

- Yeah because if you separate your kids,

you see one's 15, and one is six,

and there's such an age gap
that they could never get on.

They never grow up together,
they won't know each other.

- By 35, Symon
and Yvonne were divorced.

At 42, he had married Viennetta.

- We used to go out when we were younger.

We met in a launderette.

- Once a week.

- Once a week at the launderette,

and we just sort of drifted apart and...

- Unfortunately.

- And had our own lives, got married,

and we met up again six years
ago, nearly six years ago.

And then we're gonna go to the...

- She already had
a teenage daughter, Miriam.

Now Symon and Viennetta have
a four-year-old son, Daniel.

Does he remind you of yourself
when you were younger?

- Oh no, he's got
far more energy than me even.

- He's a bit
of both of us actually.

He's very bright and very quick.

Very clever.

- I like to know how things work,

so, for that, yes, he is like me.

- Why did you call him Daniel?

- Oh, long story.

- It was my father's name, yeah.

- That's nice.

- We decided to name him
Daniel before he was born,

didn't know it was a boy.

- They say, "Where's your father then,"

you know, "When your mum's out at work,

they say, "your father."

And I just tell them I ain't got one.

- What effect
has that had on you?

- Well, I don't think
it's had any effect on me

'cause what you don't have you don't miss.

I mean, it hurts me that he wasn't there,

but at the same time, he wasn't there.

He wasn't there for me, he
wasn't there for my mum,

so I never really wanted to see him.

That's anger inside me but
personally, I'd like to see him,

just for curiosity's sake,

but the anger that I've
had for how many years is,

it's been overgrown by boredom now,

I just can't be bothered to look for him.

Well, they've got everything.

They've even got what I never had, so.

- Which is what?

- A father, innit?

So I mean, they've had everything.

I've still got five children.

I mean, they haven't
really taken the break-up

of my first marriage too well.

I've got still to get to grips
with that and get to them

and make them understand
that Daddy is still Daddy.

- Has that been hard?

- It has for me because I've
always been the retiring type,

the, you know, not really
taking anything on,

but I don't really want to
lose my children, any of them.

I still want them to know
that I am there for them.

At that time, I thought maybe
the two families could meet

and everything would be all right,

but we're not talking about a movie,

we're talking about life,

so things don't always work out that way.

- It would be nice if
they can just pop over

and say, "Hello," and come in freely

like as if they were one of the kids

'cause other kids do,
so why shouldn't they?

- Well, before I'm old and
that, enough to get a job,

I just walk around and
see what I can find.

I was going to be a film star,

but now I'm gonna be
an electrical engineer.

Which is more to reality really.

- By 21, Symon was
working in the freezer room

of Walls Sausages in London.

How do you see the future
as far as work goes?

- Well, I know I can't
stay at Walls forever.

I mean, it's just not for me.

I couldn't stay there for that
long, my mind would go dead.

I think if I really wanted to,

I could learn a trade even now.

No, I'm quite happy to stay there.

It doesn't look like
it's gonna close down,

so I mean, better the
devil you know, innit?

- Walls did close down

and Symon had a number of warehouse jobs

before he joined Yusen,
an airfreight company,

as a fork-life truck driver.

- I mean, when I was young,

I used to say, "Oh, I'd
never work in an office,

"all those stuffy people
in a stuffy office,"

but I've done enough hard work to realise

that I've been doing the
wrong job for so long now.

- And the brother has big eyes.

- And he's blue.

- Yeah.
- The brother is blue.

- Not last year, the year before,

Symon went to do GCSE Maths,
same thing as my daughter,

and they're both swotting here,

and Symon comes up with
good grades and he passed,

but he, you know, it's just
given him a kick up the bum

to get something in that
field 'cause he's very good.

- I'd one dream when all the world

was on top of me and everything was,

and I just about got out and
everything flew up in the air,

and it all landed on my head.

- So, are you
still drawing and painting?

- I like to but
I never really find time

to actually sit down and
set something out to do.

It's just that this is so good,
she sort of stands back and.

- Yeah, exactly.

- He does help Miriam though.

She's doing art at A Level,

so when she has difficulties in something,

she says, "Symon!"

So, he comes to the rescue at times.

- I get it from my mum
'cause she loved art.

Always dragging me round
the galleries and whatever.

- Was it difficult
moving from the home

back to live with your mother?

- Well, I find it's comfortable.

See, I can get on well
with my mother sometimes.

Well, that's good because
a lot of young children

can't get on with their parents at all

at this time of their life,

but I get on pretty well with my mum now.

- What sort of
life does your mother have?

- Well, it seems hard.

I means, she's always been nervous.

She has periods of depression.

It's made me very sort of
protective towards her.

I feel I've got to help her all the time.

She died in 1990, she had cancer,

and she didn't survive all the
stuff they was doing to her.

- Was that tough?

- Yeah, for me because
there were so many things

I never actually said to my mum

that I would have liked to say to her.

It's just things you
think about afterwards.

It's too late because
they're not there anymore.

- What sort of things?

- You know, just I love you every day,

and I like what you're doing,

or I don't like what you're doing.

Just ordinary silly things, you know?

Everybody's got to get used
to knowing coloured people

and coloured people in
turn have got to get used

to being with white people.

'Cause if either side
doesn't work properly,

then no side'll work properly.

They're just the same as me, aren't they?

- Do you think
it's hard being a black man

in English society today?

- It depends what you want, dunnit?

If you just want to live in
the society, no it's not hard.

If you want to fight the
society, yes, it will be hard.

To be honest, Michael, I have
never actually taken it on.

I've had it from both sides to be honest,

to be fair to meself.

I've had white say, you're
black this and that.

And I've had black people telling me,

you're white this and that.

So, I stopped thinking about
colour a long time ago.

- But it's still as tough out there.

You're still fighting,

and you're still having to push yourself.

'Cause when you've got a job,

you've always got to try and work harder.

Even at school, you've got to,

they seemed to stereotype you.

Even when we moved in here,
we had no one speak to us

because they expect you
to be having loud music

and parties and that, but we're
not all the same, you know?

You've got good and bad in every nation,

and you know, we're just
the same as anyone else

as far as I am concerned.

- Just wanna be like everyone else really.

Nothing too marvellous.

I feel okay, just getting on with me life,

just sort of keeping up,

but I know if I really
wanted to, I could get on.

It would only take a little
spark in me to do it.

- What's the biggest influence

Viennetta has on you?

- I think really motivation

because before I never
really pushed myself.

She looks after me.

She doesn't just push me,
she looks after me, you know?

She will never let
anything be wrong for me.

She always makes sure that
if I go down the road,

I look all right.

If I go anywhere, I look
all right, you know,

and I do the right thing,

and it makes me feel that
there's somebody out there

that really, really wants me.

- I read the Financial Times.

- I read the Observer and the Times.

- What do you like about it, John?

- Well, I like, I usually
look at the headlines

and then read about them, about it.

- What's the point of the programme?

- The point of the programme
is to reach a comparison.

I don't think it is.

We're not necessarily typical examples.

- And I think that's what people

seeing the programme might think.

- Yes.
- Falsely.

- They tend to typecast us.

- So, everything we say, they'll think,

"Oh, that's a typical result
of the public school system."

- Yeah.

That's one of the problems
with this sort of programme,

I don't really think
that for people like us,

unless one speaks at seven
and have been very funny,

have very much to say
that's very interesting.

'Cause I mean, we don't know very much.

- Well, we didn't know every
much when we were seven,

but at least

we were quite funny.
- We were at least funny.

- Yes, I agree with John.

All we can do is say what we think,

and if that's of interest to
people, good luck to them.

- I'm going to Charterhouse

and after that to Trinity Hall, Cambridge.

- Andrew went to Charterhouse

and Cambridge where he read Law.

- I'd like to be a solicitor
and also fairly successful.

- At 28, Andrew was a solicitor.

What qualities do you think
it needs to be successful?

- Well, you have to have a legal ability

in my business obviously,

and you have to have a
sort of bedside manner

as far as your clients are concerned.

It's no good being brilliant

if you can't communicate
with your clients.

- By 35, he
had become a partner.

- Well, I work in the corporate department

of a large firm of solicitors in the city,

that is, dealing with things
like mergers and acquisitions,

joint ventures, general corporate advice,

putting deals together for clients.

I suppose the pace has changed a bit.

As you know with technology,
people expect the work done

much faster than they perhaps did,

well perhaps not so much seven years ago,

but 14 years ago.

Our practise has got
much more international

with more business travel.

We have offices in places

like Sao Paulo in
Brazil, Moscow, Thailand.

- How has that changed your life

or your part in the company?

- Well, it really means that you are

under increasing pressure
to produce things quickly.

- And how is that for you?

- That's fine, you have
to meet the pressures,

that's what people come and see you for.

- What do you think
about girlfriends at your age?

Tell me what you think of girlfriends?

- I've got one but I
don't think much of her.

They're no longer just bores

who won't play this or something.

- They're part of the
community, and they're there.

- And you can begin to talk to them.

- I don't think I financially
come from the same background.

Andrew didn't go for the haughty deb,

he went for a good Yorkshire lass,

but I mean obviously
he knew what he wanted.

- By the time he was
28, Andrew had married Jane.

- I think I'm probably
quite down to earth,

and I tend to be less extravagant
than maybe some women are.

I don't go out and buy
lots of expensive dresses.

I just go out and buy
one or two.

- And even better, pay for them.

- I suppose the most important
thing that's happened

is that we've had two children,

one five years ago, Alexander,

and then a couple of years later, Timothy.

When I see the children
playing together now,

I realise how much fun they have together,

and it's probably what I missed
perhaps being an only child.

- What's the
most difficult thing

about keeping the marriage together?

- I don't think it is
particularly difficult actually.

We seem to manage all right.

Would you say?

- I think so, we talk, don't we?

We have a situation where we
retain a babysitter once a week

and we make a point
of, if at all possible,

that once a week, we always
go out by ourselves mid-week.

And I think that's quite important.

- Do you worry at
all about not having a career,

and what will happen, as I said,

when the children leave home?

- Well I do, but I've
made that decision now,

and I've come to terms with it.

You know, if I'd wanted
to be a career woman,

then probably that's what I'd be,

but I didn't want to be a career woman.

I wanted to be a mother and
to be a full-time mother.

- You get a very good view

of the Statue of Liberty now.

- Uh-huh, can you see it?

- It's our children's half-term,

so we decided to spend
a few days in New York.

- You go and have a look, Tim.

- I come here from
time to time on my work,

but it's usually very rushed.

But we thought it would be rather nice

to bring them with us.

- Smile.

- I think it's not a bad
idea to pay for schools

because if we didn't, schools
would be so nasty and crowded.

- Yes.
- So do I think so.

- Yes.
- And the people

in the schools.

- And the poor people
would come rushing in.

- The man in charge of the school

would get very angry because...

- And he'd get bankrupt once more.

- He wouldn't be able
to pay all the masters

if he didn't get any money.

- An education is very important.

I mean, you can never be sure

of leaving your children
any worldly goods,

but at least you can be sure

that once you've given
them a good education,

that's something that
no one can take away.

Well, Alexander is
coming up into his teens,

and he'll be sitting common entrance

to go to his next school
later in the year,

which will be a boarding school.

In fact, he's down to go to
the same school as I went to.

Timothy is continuing
where he is now for a while

and perhaps be going
through the same procedure.

Well, I think boarding makes
you feel self-sufficient

and also, it teaches you to
be away from your parents

and to live with people for a long time.

- It's going to seem very, very strange,

but if it's what he wants to do

and if it helps him to
get where he wants to go,

then I'm prepared to only
see him every three weeks.

- Once I had to talk to Greville,

he was in my house and I asked Sir

if he could put him out of my house

because he was always getting minuses.

It think it's become much more competitive

for children nowadays.

I don't really remember much
about my early childhood,

but I feel that they are under
more pressure to perform now.

You know, you look back
at us at the age of seven,

saying we're going to this school,

that university and so on.

But there have been many places

where one could have gone wrong.

Just because you have the opportunities,

it doesn't mean that you
necessarily are gonna pull through.

- Where might you
have gone wrong do you think?

- Well, one could have
given up on university,

one could have found the
pressures of work too much.

One could have found the
pressures of marriage too much,

all sorts of things can go wrong.

- And what is
it in you do you think

that's pulled you through?

- Well, I suppose it's
just being persistent.

I don't like giving up,

and perhaps it's also not
being too adventurous,

not wanting to do anything
else, once you start, you know.

I've been in my job for 20 years.

I haven't really wanted
to do anything else.

- When I leave this school,
I'm going to Collett Court,

and then I will be going to
Westminster Boarding School

if I pass the exam.

And then we think I'm going
to Cambridge in Trinity Hall.

- And then it just presents itself.

- Half, three.

- John went
to Westminster School.

He went on to read Law
at Christchurch, Oxford.

- I do believe parents have a right

to educate their children
as they think fit,

and I think someone who
works on the assembly line

in some of these car
factories earning huge wage

could well afford to send their children

to private school if they wanted to.

- At 21, we asked him
what career he would pursue.

- Might be at the Bar.

- Doing what?

- Perhaps Chancery practise.

- I now have a career, I'm a barrister.

Other than that, life chugs
along in varying degrees.

When boys go around with girls,

they don't pay attention
to what they're doing.

Yes, my grandmother had an
accident because a boyfriend

was kissing his girlfriend in the street.

- John married Claire,

the daughter of a former
ambassador to Bulgaria.

He has a very successful
career at the Bar is now a QC.

He decided not to take part in this film.

- When I leave school, I'm
going to the Dragon School,

I might and Mummy's, and I might go to,

after, I might go to
Charterhouse Marlborough.

I can't remember all other the places

because Mummy's got so many,
but there's some of them.

- What about
university, Charles?

- I might go to Oxford.

- Charles went to Marlborough,

but he didn't go to Oxford.

- In fact.
- Instead he went

to Durham University.

- I'd say I'm pleased I
didn't because it's very much

a sort of set from
Marlborough Prep School,

Marlborough Oxbridge conveyor belt.

Shoved out at the end.

- And what
did Charles want to do?

- Hard to say, probably
scribbling away in some basement

for some London newspaper or something.

- Charles did scribble away

for an East London newspaper.

He then moved onto the BBC
where he became a producer.

He's now Editor of Science
Documentaries at Channel 4.

He decided not to take
part in this documentary.

- When I grow up,

I'd like to find out all
about the moon and all that.

- Nick, a farmer's son,

grew up in the Yorkshire Dales.

- I said I was interested
in physics and chemistry.

Well, I'm not gonna do that here.

- At 14, he was
at away at boarding school,

and at 21, reading physics at Oxford.

So, what career are you gonna pursue?

- It depends whether I'll be good enough

to do what I want to really do.

I would like if I can to do research.

The gas in these experiments
is at a temperature

comparable with that of the
sun, whereas in a power reactor,

it would be maybe 10 times
the temperature of the sun,

and we're trying to
induce that gas to fuse.

- By 28, he had moved to America

and was doing research into nuclear fusion

at the University of Wisconsin.

By 35, he was an
associate professor there.

- The first one is basically saying

that the rate of change
of crystal momentum,

it's DDT at this quality H bar K.

That is equal to the Laurent's Force.

So, if you work out the
density in any cell.

In addition to now being a full professor,

I've been doing some administrative jobs.

I've been associate
chair of my department,

which means I've run the graduate
programme in my department,

which is the Electrical
Engineering department.

I've been running admissions

and dealing with student problems

and some for the graduate programme.

And I've spent the last year and a half

writing a couple of books.

One about this business of using plasmas

to process semi-conductors,

and there is another one that
was about semi-conductors.

It's called "Semi-conductor Devises,"

and it's got a subtitle,
"A Simulation Approach."

- Do you have a girlfriend?

- I don't want to answer that.

I don't answer those kind of questions.

I thought that one would come up

because when I was, when I
was going on the other one,

somebody said, "What do
you think about girls,"

and I said, "I don't answer
questions like that."

Is that the reason you're asking it?

Yeah, I thought so.

The best answer would be to say

that I don't answer questions like that,

but you know, it's what
I said when I was seven,

and it's still the most sensible,

but I mean, what about them?

- Nick was only 17 when I first met him,

and I knew he was a nice person.

I find him very attractive
and he uses his intelligence

in his relationship with
me which is very important.

- His English-born wife Jackie

is a professor of journalism
at the university.

They have an eight-year-old son.

- Why only one child?

- Well, there's
a couple of reasons,

one is that these silly jobs we have

demand such an amount of time

and such a commitment that
it's hard to fit in one.

Also, he's such a lively person

and he demands such a lot of attention

that he makes it hard to
find time for another.

So, I think that's the main reason.

- So, you
don't want another one?

- Oh yes, no, I would love to.

I would dearly love to
have another one actually.

No that's, don't go away
with that impression.

No, I absolutely adore children.

If I can change the world,
I'd change it into a diamond.

I don't really think
that I've done anything

you could call a great success.

I mean, it would seem really ridiculous

to any of my friends who
watch this if I said,

"Christ, aren't I a great
success, look at me."

- When I first met you,

I remember I thought
this was very idealistic,

but it was rather interesting,

when I asked you why are
you working on fusion,

you said you wanted to save the world.

I think that's a bit embarrassing now,

but I don't think you'd feel the same way

about something that you
didn't feel mattered.

- I always wanted to have an impact,

to do something useful

that was actually going to benefit people.

I had this vision of people
in ivory towers being cut off,

doing stuff all their lives

and having no effect
on anybody whatsoever,

and that was absolutely
not what I wanted to do,

and so I chose to go
into this fusion business

'cause I thought this
would have a huge impact.

- Plasma's supposed to fill that volume.

- I'm not expecting to be reported

in newspaper headlines any time soon.

That's not the limit of my ambition,

but it's just trying to be realistic.

I'm just gonna have to try

and settle for reasonably small victories.

They'd like to come out for a holiday

in the country when we'd like,

when I'd like to have
a holiday in the town.

- Do you get lonely here?

- You just tend to get stuck
into your everyday routine,

and you don't think about
it, but when you call home,

then you realise how far away you are,

and now it seems acute

because both our families
are getting older,

even if you think in terms of seeing them

once every two years.

- That's not so many times.
- You're thinking only

about 10 times and that's awful.

- This year,
Nick went back to the Dales

to see his family.

It's been five years
since I've been back here.

It's changed quite a lot.

It's got more touristy and less
like a region that's farmed.

Every second house seems to
be a hotel at the moment.

- This is the old pippin.

- Well, it's been rotten for my dad

because he's been unable
to walk a lot of the time.

He'd had terrible troubles with his legs,

and of course, farming's
in a miserable shape,

so he's retiring, and
the stock have been sold.

Yes, I think he'd had a very hard life.

He's had to work enormous
hours every day of his life

doing something that
ultimately isn't going to work.

- Do you want
to take up farming?

- No.

I'm not interested in it.

My youngest brother, the deaf one,

if he can't do anything else,

he can probably run the farm
if he can't, as a last resort.

- So, your brothers
won't take over on the farm?

- Absolutely not, no.

Neither of them really
wanted to, I don't think.

Andrew's a newspaper reporter.

He's I think about to
take a job near York.

He's gonna need a base over there.

He can't commute from here.

Well, Christopher's
married, which is great.

He has a very nice wife who
is getting better and better

at communicating with the
deaf and he works in Skipton.

He's taking some courses in computers.

I'm not actually sure what,
but he always says to me

that I do computers and I
think that it's a good idea

that he does computers and I do.

So, I try to encourage him.

- So, you're all away,

so the Hitchons are finished here?

- Yes, the Hitchons are certainly

largely uprooted from here, aren't they?

I'm the only child in the village

except for my baby brother.

Well, this is Arncliffe School,

which is where my brother
and I went to school

from age five to 10.

And there's the church

where we were all
christened and everything.

We used to go to harvest
festivals and things there.

- What did you
learn here do you think

that you carried with you?

- Well, you just look at this place.

I mean, it's utterly beautiful

but not beautiful in
the pretty cutesy way.

I think of it as being magnificent
but rather grim really.

I sort of feel as if you
could look deep inside me,

I feel like there's some
of this in there somewhere,

and it's rather dower but just wonderful.

It's very uncompromising, and
sometimes it's rather tragic,

but it makes other places you go

seem rather trivial as well.

I'm just enormously proud
of having come from here.

The people are, the idea
of being a Dales person

is really terribly important to me.

What you see that's so magnificent

are the clouds sweeping by all the time,

air and cloud and water
continually sweeping over you.

I mean, there's a poetic side to that,

and I would be looking
at these and thinking,

"Now, how does a cloud work?"

And when you come down to it,

what I do when I try to solve equations,

it's the same equations
that describe clouds

and water and air flowing around.

From a scientific point of view,

I relate back to this sort of thing.

- So, this is a sign,
there's ESAs, there's LFAs.

- It's hard being
away from your roots, isn't it?

- Terribly hard.

It's hard in lots and lots of ways.

I mean, if you go to an alien culture,

you don't know what's going
on around you half the time.

It's really strange to go
to a different country,

people don't send out the same signals.

I could try that.
- Even if it's frightening.

- It's very hard to imagine
being able to come back here,

and I think about it a lot,

but I haven't seen the way to do it yet.

In some sense, it never
really belonged to me.

I mean, part of me would
love to own a stake in it,

but I really don't own any of it.

But the other thing is that
I've had to move out of here,

and I think that the way the world is,

it's very hard to stay in one place.

People are forced to move constantly.

The history of this century
has a lot of examples

where people moved or should have moved

and professionally and
in lots of other ways,

it's really important that
people are always thinking

about what's happening around them

and how they have to react to it.

Beauty's transient, so
maybe we can come by here

and visit it, but unfortunately,

I'm not gonna be permitted
to be here very much.

- And what about
all the other children?

What's happened to them?

- Well, I'll go in to Africa
and try and teach people

who are not civilised
to be more or less good.

- I'm going to work in Woolworths.

- What would you do if
you'd lots of money,

about maybe two pounds?

- I would buy meself a new
nice house, wouldn't I?

- What does university mean?

- When I grow up, I
want to be an astronaut,

but if I can't be an astronaut,

I think I'll be a coach driver.

Well, I'm going to take
people to the country

and sometimes take them to the seaside.

- Is Neil still homeless?

We'll find out tomorrow.