28 Up (1984) - full transcript

- I wanna be a jockey when I grow up.

Yeah, I wanna be a jockey when I grow up.

- I'm down for Heathfield
and Southall Manor.

- Well, going to Africa,
and try and teach people.

- I don't think you
want to go to university

if you want to be an astronaut.

- I'd like to find out all
about the moon, and all that.

- Is it important to fight, yes.

♪ These are the actions they must do ♪

- I just wanna be a jockey when I grow up.

Yeah, I wanna be a jockey when I grow up.



- Tony was already an apprentice

at Tommy Gosling's Racing Stables in Epsom

when he left school at 14.

- This is a photo finish
when I rode at Newbury.

I'm the one with the white cap.

I was beaten a length
and a half for third,

and I had a photo finish,

so I took it out of the box
and kept it as a souvenir.

- What will you do

if you don't make it as a jockey?

- I don't know.

If I knew I couldn't be one,
I'd get out of the game.

I wouldn't bother.

- And what do
you think you would do then?



- Learn taxis.

- Tony didn't
make it as a jockey.

He had three races, wasn't
placed, and gave it up.

At 21 he was doing the Knowledge,

learning to be a London cabbie.

- I will be a cab driver,
and I know I will.

And I want to prove every person

who think I can't be a cab driver wrong,

and I'll get that badge,

and I'm gonna put it right in their face,

just to tell 'em how wrong they can be,

and how underestimated I am.

It's surprising who you pick up, you see.

I once met Kojak, I picked him up.

And Warren Mitchell, or
Alf Garnett, you know?

And I said, "Oh, hello,
Warren, how are you, mate?

"Good to see ya."

So he ends up saying, "I wanna
go to Langan's Brasserie."

You know, Stratton Street, Langan's.

So half way there I
said, "Listen," I said,

"Warren, it wouldn't,"

I said, "It wouldn't be you

"if you don't sort of come
out with Alf, you know?

"I mean, give us a, let us
see how he's going, you know?"

So straight away he's
brought Alf Garnett to life

in the back of me cab.

So, we're on the way
to Langan's, you know.

All I can hear is Alf Garnett, you know.

"It's the Labour government,"
and, "Your lot up here."

When we get there, I said, like,

"Thanks, Warren, terrific, mate, 1.80."

So, he gave me exactly 1.80.

"Listen," I said, "I
know you're Alf Garnett.

"I know you're having trouble."

So I, like, I said,

"But I want you to become
Warren Mitchell now."

"Like, my tip's all like
20-odd pence," or whatever.

He said, "Son," as in Alf Garnett still,

"you know Alf's doing bad at
the moment, I can't afford it,"

and he walked away, and like,
he done me like a kipper.

- What does
it take to be a good cabbie?

- I think, meself,
happy-go-lucky character,

and to take as much as
what any other person

couldn't take in a normal job,

because it's a big world out there,

and everyone's a different character,

all that I pick up.

Their attitudes, some of
'em, like the city gents,

the typical, "Waterloo, driver,
please, in five minutes,"

I'll sort of say, "Hold on, mate,

"I'll get me helicopter out of the boot."

I love being a taxi driver,

I like the outdoor life, the independence.

There's no one to govern me, or say, like,

"You've gotta be in at a certain time."

- Sometimes on a Saturday
morning I go to the pictures.

Sometimes with my friends,
sometimes with him.

- You don't!

- I do!

- She don't

I don't ever see ya!

You go to a different pictures.

- Have you got a girlfriend?

- No.

- Would you
like to have a girlfriend?

- No.

Do you understand the four Fs?

Find 'em, feed 'em, and forget
'em, but for the other F,

I'll let you use your own discrimination.

I mean, this one, I
tried to do the three Fs,

but I couldn't forget her.

- I used to work in a pub,

just on Friday nights,
barmaids, barmaiding.

And then from there one night
I went to a discotheque.

He was in the pub earlier on,

and then afterwards we
went to a discotheque,

and Tony was standing there.

And I just, from there
I just, that was it.

I couldn't get rid of him.

- Bee around honey, you know?

- And why did
you fall in love with him?

- I don't know.

- I don't know, either.

I don't know how you put
up with me for so long.

- I don't know, right?

Sometimes I don't know how I stand him.

- But what is it that you

love about him?
- I like his personality.

It doesn't matter who it is,
he don't change for nobody.

- There's only one ambition,
really, I want a baby son.

If I see my baby son, that
is my ambition fulfilled.

No one knows it, only you now.

- We've got two children.

Nicky's 6 1/2, Jodi's 2 1/2, nearly three,

and I'm having another one in March.

- Who looks after
them, or do you share it up?

- Me, basically, yeah.

He does take 'em out quite a lot, but,

telling offs and smacks is all left to me.

I have to do all of that.

He don't like smacking 'em.

He don't like telling them off,

unless it's really, really...

- Anything serious, then I...
- Serious, then he would.

- They all got, see that baby one?

- So what
advantages do you think you've had

over some of the other
people that we've filmed?

- Well, academically,

probably they've had
more advantages over me.

I don't know, the fact
they've had prep schools

at a very early age, you
know, they've benefited by it,

which, you know, it tells
obviously in this film.

But as far as, you know,

the stability and the
backgrounds with their parents,

they've missed out on that.

- Tone, I
don't like 'em near me.

- Come on.
- Have a piece of bread each.

Here, Jodi.

Jodi, come on.

- Being in the prep school,

they're missing the love and the care

what every East Ender
always gets, you know,

gives their children each
time they come home from work.

And the parents, you know,

sometimes obviously
are not gonna be there,

'cause they're away at prep school.

They're missing the love and affection,

you know, what they are craving for.

When my kids are growing up,

I wanna see the change
in 'em all the time,

so I have my own memories
of when they was a kid,

and how they were, you know,
and what they were like.

- Would everybody
please sit round now,

get on with their work.

I don't want to see any backs to me.

There shouldn't be anyone turning round.

Tony, do you hear as well?

Get on with your work in front.

Tony!

Don't turn around again.

- Education is, it's just a thing to say,

"My son is higher than him," or,

"My son had a better background than him."

I mean, I'm as good or even
better than most of them people.

Especially on this programme.

I mean, I'm one of the tail-enders.

You'll think, oh, the
East End boy, you know,

and he ain't got a no-good education.

But all of a sudden the East
End boy's got a car, motorbike,

and he goes to Spain
every year, and whatever.

And have I worked for it?

No, I'm here putting bets on.

And you think, "How does he do it?"

And there's a boy, who
was at Eaton, and all, whatever.

He's studying to be a professor,
he's making up the things.

And where's the education?

There's no education in this world.

It's just one big rat race,

and you've gotta kill your man next to you

to get in front of him.

Education, when I said,
"There's no education,"

yes, there is an education.

I made a grave mistake in saying that.

But I didn't mean to say

there's no education
as far as academically.

Yes, there is.

The area, the environment, and education,

makes a person have more
opportunities in this world.

You know what I mean, that's obvious.

- Let's talk about the kids.

Do you want for them what
you had for yourself,

in terms of schooling and everything?

- You're talking about my childhood?

Five years old, upwards
to seven, eight, nine,

I had no money, my father had no money,

and I had my brother's
clothes for 10 years.

His hand-me-downs are
sorta going on my arms

with holes in, you see?

I've never had any
opportunities to better myself,

'cause I was a kid.

I never knew no better.

And my mum and dad, you know,

my dad's got ill health,
you know, he couldn't work.

I'm not making a violin story out of this.

I mean, that's the way it was.

And I'm more stronger
it happened that way.

I mean, I'm a more stronger person.

I appreciate things more now.

And now I'm in a position,
through my job, you know,

to give my kids the life I
never had, like lovely clothes.

I go to holidays, you know,

I go to Portugal, and I go to Spain,

hopefully America next year.

I mean, I want everything I never had,

to go, you know, on my kids,

to say that, you know,

let them know the
benefits of the nice life,

what it's all about.

The poshens, "Oh yes, oh yes, oh yes."

They're nuts!

You just have to touch 'em.

Yeah, they, well, they can get
what they want, can't they?

If you have gotta work for it,

and it's them, they can just
ask for money and get it,

and they can buy what they want.

I've learnt through driving a cab

that people are individuals,
whatever they are,

upper class or, you
know, middle class, or,

as in my case, you know, East Ender.

But I'm only glad, you know,

that I've found out the
difference at an early age,

so I can judge people

on what they are rather than who they are.

I'm not a politician,

so let them worry about what's
coming for the next day.

All I understand is dogs, prices, girls,

Knowledge, roads, streets, squares,

and Mum and Dad, and love.

That's all I understand,
that's all I wanna understand.

- Four to one, Cooladine.

- 4 1/250s, 4 1/250s, four to one.

- At 21 he
was earning a bit extra

as a bookie's runner at Hackney Wick.

- What do they call you here?

- I reckon a pest, or something like that.

I don't mean to make a nuisance of myself.

I mean, it's for the other
patrons in the place.

I mean, they don't want to see

a little boy nipping
between their feet, running,

putting a bet on here for
a face, you understand?

They think, "Oh, what's
he doing, is he mad?"

I mean, I walk up there
and I order the teas.

There could be eight people
in front of me, I just go,

"Can I have a tea please, tea please,"

five times, "tea please, tea please."

And they've gotta serve me before them,

or get rid of me, do you understand?

So that's how you've gotta do it.

I'm in two golf societies, and each month,

all the members of each society
meet to play a game of golf.

- Oh!
- Too close.

- And who
are the guys you play with?

- Well, they're mostly publicans,

or taxi drivers, you know?

And, we always end up, you
know, having a small bet.

- Do you like
the whole social side of it?

- Only with my mates,
because on a golf course,

it becomes very snooty type, you know?

I mean, I understand they've gotta pay

400 pound a year membership.

And they don't, you know,

really want people without any etiquette

to go on a golf course

and ruin their so-called
golf course, right?

- It's good.

Great shot, great shot.

- Fore!
- Fore!

- It does get a bit, a
pain sometimes, you know,

when they keep saying, "Excuse
me sir, are you a member?"

It comes out like that.

But obviously etiquette's etiquette,

so you've gotta conduct yourself
on these type of courses.

- Because, I think, you're a
bit smaller than most people,

you try to hit the ball hard.

You've gotta just, it'll get there.

- Where'd you go, Ken?

- I'm over here.

- Oh, I missed that one.
- Unlucky, keep hold of her.

- It's about an eight to the right.

- Too much mate, too much.

- No it ain't, no it ain't, no.

Tone, hit an eight, here.

It's definitely an eight.
- No that's too much.

Too much club, Ken.

- Eight, hit an eight.
- No, no,

get us a nine, mate.

- What are you gonna hit, then?

- Nine-iron, I
think that's about right.

- Yeah, go on, then.

If you hit a nine, hit it to the right.

That's it, that's it, that's perfect.

Great shot!

That's a great shot.

- Now I am a young fella, and
I come to you, and I just,

I heard that you're a big,
successful taxi driver...

- You want advice.
- And I say to you, yes.

- I've been a film
extra now for six years.

It may not go no further.

I mean, I'm just having acting lessons.

- You give me the benefit
of all of your experience.

All right, now, you've
gotta feel pretty big,

bigger than me.

- Just go?

- Right then, here we go.

- Tell me, son, what do you
wanna be a cab driver for, mate?

- Well, make a lot of money,
you know, have a good life.

- Son, look at me, I may be
a successful businessman.

I might have the suit, I might have the,

all the holidays in Spain every year,

but son, it's hard work out there, mate.

- Come on, you're not reaching me yet.

- Not getting to you?
- You're not getting to me.

All right, now be bigger,
dominate me, all right?

- Son.
- Yeah?

- Son, it's a big world out
there, and obviously I'm not...

I can't get into it, Warren.

- All right, don't worry, don't worry.

- When I was in "The Sweeney,"

and when I was in "Churchill:
The Wilderness Years,"

I'd see the actors, and yeah,
I thought, like, you know,

it's not quite easy to act on stage.

Of course, it's, you know,
you need time and dedication.

It's very hard.

Son, tell me, why do you
wanna be a taxi driver?

- Well, you know, you've got success.

- Don't let looks go impressing,

you know what I mean, listen.

- What excites you about acting?

- I like it, I
mean, I think of meself,

you know, like, I can do that,

and I still wanna have a go of it.

I mean, nothing for sort
of fame and fortune,

or anything like that,

you know, big Hollywood and bright lights.

It's nothing like that, just a sideline.

- So what drives you then

through all these various ambitions?

- It's the philosophy
of not keeping still.

I mean, I'm a very
overactive type of person.

I mean, I like to feel that
I don't wanna keep still,

'cause life, you know,
don't wait for nobody,

so you've gotta cram it
in as much as you can

before your days are numbered.

I mean, I'm made to be

a happy-go-lucky type
of fellow, which I am.

I'm an East Ender, which, the attitude is,

"Hello, mate, all right,
how are ya," type of thing,

and I wouldn't wanna lose that.

- How long are
you gonna be a cab driver?

Is this what you wanna do
for the rest of your life?

- Well, at the moment, I'm
very happy in driving a cab.

But my wife and I always
considered owning our own pub,

so obviously, I think,
within two or three years,

once I get financially straightened out,

I'm gonna have a go at being a publican.

And if I don't like it,

say, if I give it a go for
a year, or even six months,

if I don't like being a publican,

I'm in a good position to say, well,

I'll get rid of the pub and
go back to taxi driving.

I don't wanna change, because if I change,

it proves the other Tony
Walker was all fake.

54 to 20, Boris.

- What are
the best times for you?

- Well, two, really.

The best time was when the
kids, first baby was born.

The next one, obviously, Jodi.

But my greatest fulfilment in life,

when I rode at Kempton in the
same race as Lester Piggott.

I was a naive,
wet-behind-the-ears apprentice,

and the governor told me,
"You've gotta ride, son.

"Friday, you've gotta
lose X amount of weight,"

which I did, eight pound in four days.

And he says, like, I go in there,

and they're all there, you know.

I'm part of it.

All my years, from seven, all my ambition,

is fulfilled in one moment,

when the long fellow come out,

and I'm in with him, like in the same...

The starter's calling the
register of the names,

and he'll sorta go like
"Piggott, draw, eight.

"Walker, draw, 10."

And your idol, like,

you're there, and the big man's
there, you know what I mean?

Money in the whole
world couldn't buy that.

Proudest day of my life, which,

my ambition fulfilled
to the highest level.

And I eventually finished last.

Tailed off obviously,

but it didn't make any difference to me.

Just to be part of it,
be with the man himself.

You couldn't buy it.

That was the proudest
day of my whole life.

- Well, going to Africa,

and try and teach people
who are not civilised

to be more or less good.

No, I don't want to be a missionary,

because I just can't
talk about it to people.

You know, I'm interested in it myself,

but I wouldn't be very good at it, at all.

- Chris Awalambe.
- Yes, sir!

- Mohan Ali.
- Yes, sir!

- Kasim Mahir.
- Yes, sir!

- Oscar Ali.
- Yes, sir!

- Nasril.
- Yes, sir.

- Sultan.
- Yes, sir.

- Abdul Khair.

I was working at an insurance
company at the time,

and I decided to go into teaching,

without any experience at all,

and I didn't think they
would allow somebody

to walk off the street into a classroom.

Six times three is 18,
shared by two is nine,

plus seven is 16, so you put the 16 there.

They were crying out for maths teachers.

They interviewed me.

They phoned me up the next day,

and said, would I like the job?

I said yes, within five
weeks I was in a classroom.

They took one look at me,

and thought it was Christmas, I think.

Okay, so once you're done, all right?

- What's the most

enjoyable thing about teaching?

- Just being a part of the
pupils' advancement and learning,

and watching them understand
more, and being more confident,

then getting some enjoyment

and satisfaction from mathematics.

- After working
in the City for three years,

Bruce started teaching
at Tony's old school,

in the East End of London.

He lives in a local council flat,

within walking distance of the school.

- Balden, let's have
the present tense of vasto.

Yes, speak up.

- They don't sort of
enforce being upper class,

and things like that,
at St. Paul's, you know.

They suggest that you
don't have long hair,

and they do get it cut if.

And they teach you to be
reasonably well mannered,

but not to sniff on the poorer people.

- When we filmed him at 21,

Bruce was in his last year
at Oxford, reading maths.

- And by Eisenstein.

You can show that this is irreducible.

Then you do a transformation
on this polynomial,

x equals t plus two.

- Good, that's a nice way of doing it,

particularly using Eisenstein down here,

because his test is very powerful.

- Yes.

- 20, 21, 22, 23, 24.

- And to here, 25, right,
so if you get across to 25.

- It's so
different from your own education

where you're teaching now, why?

- General education is
better for society, I think.

Public schools are divisive.

That's with no statement
about my education.

My education was academically excellent,

and I was very grateful for it.

I think there is a class society,

and I think public schools
may help its continuance.

So you're in the lead, you see,

because DSE CABS has got
a profit of two pounds,

and GOODB CABS has got
no profit at all, okay?

Now, can you explain that just to Abdul,

'cause I want him to
understand what it is.

I don't know whether I said,
"Right, I must do something

"which is against what I
have been brought up to do,"

or whatever.

I don't know, I've just found
something I find rewarding.

I didn't agree with the Conservatives

about what they were doing
with the black people,

you know, the racial policy.

- Do you
have to defend immigration

to a lot of people in this area?

- Yes, I think you do,

but those who say there are
too many coming in, and so on,

I think, really, are uneducated
about the whole question.

They should see the positive benefits

that they're having in this country,

and see that as a result
of all of this immigration,

they're not being denied opportunities.

It's not the fault of immigrants
that there is unemployment.

It's part of a political
party's responsibility,

is to explain that,

and show people what is
the more truthful way

of representing the situation.

None of the parties really
seem to agree with me,

but I think if I had voted,
I'd have voted Labour.

I am about the only
socialist in my village.

And I go into the pub,

and I sort of expect to stand up

and defend all socialist policies.

Sort of, this is the village socialist,

no, village idiot, sorry.

I just see there are a
lack of opportunities

for a lot of people.

Obviously unemployment is a great

feature in many people's
lives, and many family's lives.

And teaching children,
sometimes you wonder,

what's going to happen to them.

It seems to me that the leader
of the country at the moment

should be one of the most
unpopular persons in the country,

and yet she gets away with everything.

She, as far as I can see,
has done lots of damage,

and yet, nobody can oppose her.

My heart's desire is to see my daddy,

who is 6,000 miles away.

And I can remember being happy there.

I can remember also being miserable,

because I can remember crying.

- Squad, steady!

- And I always
seemed to be beaten on.

I never used to understand why.

- Did it give you

an overdeveloped sense of authority?

- If you look at society in general,

I've always probably been
on the side of authority.

And you know, it's been,

an education, learning
that authority can be bad,

and can be corrupt.

- Squad, left foot inward, please!

Squad, breathe in!

- Well, my girlfriend is in Africa,

and I won't,

I don't think I'll have another
chance of seeing her again.

- Have you got any girlfriends?

- No, no, not yet.

I'm sure it will come, but not yet.

I think I would very much like to

become involved in a family,
my own family, for a start.

That's a need that I
feel I ought to fulfil,

and would like to fulfil,
and would do it well.

I mean, I do think a lot of
people think too much about it.

- What happened
when you burnt your fingers?

- I'd rather not talk about it, really.

Well, no, I didn't really mean that.

I mean, I don't mean that I
don't want to talk about it.

Just, I'd need quite a long
time to think about it, really.

I think I possibly get a little serious.

I don't quite understand the modern,

sort of, way of behaving,
the modern manner.

I think I'm a little old fashioned.

Now, at three o'clock

I'm going to come and
pick you up from art.

You'll only have one art lesson.

So if your art teacher
forgets, at five to three,

ask her to say, "We should
be packing away now,"

and I'll come and get you.

- So there you were,

you went to a posh preparatory school,

and a major public school,
and then to Oxford,

and now you're in a council flat,

teaching in this school
in the East End of London.

You don't feel any
sense of disappointment?

- No, because what I am
trying to do at the moment

and achieve is difficult.

It may not sound difficult
in the sense that

you could sum up what I do quite simply,

but behind all that, it is very difficult.

I certainly find it satisfying
achieving successes.

There may come a time when
I decide I can't do it,

and that's not necessarily a weakness.

That may be a strength, that you realise,

you can't do it as well as you would wish.

I think the most important
thing in the world

is everyone should know about God.

It all springs from,

loving God and Christ, I suppose,

that you try and do that
as best as possible,

and let that lead your actions in life.

- Does it sadden
you when you meet people

who don't believe in Christianity?

- Yes, if they dismiss it casually.

If they dismiss it as
just being something...

"Oh, well, we know about that.

"We got a bit of that at school,"

and it doesn't really mean very much,

then it does sadden me, because, you know,

it's much, much more than that.

- What is it about
it that's important to you?

- Well, the belief in...

The belief that in goodness
and in love, as being two,

well, great positive forces,
and that, you know, people...

Well, just the simple belief, like,

a good act is never wasted.

Certainly, you can observe
somebody when they're seven,

and identify particular things,

which maybe are then always with them,

whatever else happens to them.

People possibly say I'm little
innocent at times, or naive.

I used to get worried
about this, and think,

perhaps I ought not to be
taken in, or deceived, or...

I'm not talking about love now,

I'm just talking about generally speaking.

I feel that's a strength in a way.

I think, you know,

if there are people who
are willing to trust,

then, you know, we should be encouraged.

- Tell me, do
you have any boyfriends, Suzi?

- Yes.

- Tell me about him.

- Well, he lives up in
Scotland, and I think he's 13.

I'm rather lonely up there,

because he usually goes to school.

But we usually play till
about half past six,

when he comes home from school.

Then we go in, and then he
goes home to do his homework.

- Have you
got any boyfriends, Suzi?

What is your attitude towards
marriage, for yourself?

- Well, I don't know.

I mean, I haven't given
it a lot of thought,

'cause I'm very, very cynical about it.

But then, you know,

you get a certain amount
of faith restored in it.

Well, I mean, I've got friends,

and their parents are happily married,

and so it does put faith back into you,

but me, myself, I'm very cynical about it.

We were friends for about two years.

- Rupert and Suzi
were married five years ago.

- And, I think the nice thing was

that we knew each other very well before.

We knew quite a lot of
the faults of each other,

which I think is very important.

I don't sort of sit down and think,

or, you know, analyse marriage.

It's not something I've had
to come up and think about,

or that I was going to get married,

and I've got no desire to at the moment.

I think 20 is far too young.

I suppose 22 is considered quite young.

I felt it was the right time.

I don't see what I would've gained

by waiting another three years.

- What gave you that feeling?

- I just felt I was doing the right thing,

which, as you said, was extraordinary,

when only about 18 months
before I was very anti it.

I came to London when I
left school after Paris,

and at the moment I could
never live in the country.

I'm happy down here.

I mean, the country is nice for four days,

to go for healthy long walks, but I mean,

I could never live up there now.

- They live in
a small village near Bath,

where Rupert is a partner
in a firm of solicitors.

- I had seven years up
in London, I suppose.

It was fantastic, but
I've just had enough.

It's a much slower way of life down here,

and I'd had enough of the rat race.

When I get married, I'd
like to have two children.

I'm not very children-minded
at the moment.

I don't know if I ever will be.

- What do you think about them?

- Well, I don't like babies.

- What was
the biggest shocks to you

when you suddenly were
confronted with a small baby

that you had to be responsible for?

- Panic set in, I think,

that I wasn't going to be able to cope.

- Would you like to have

a nanny to look after them,

or do you want to look after them?

- No, I want a nanny to look after them.

I felt that we'd taken the decision

to bring a child into the world,

and I feel that I wanted to
bring him up, not somebody else.

I feel that it's my
responsibility to start him off.

Whether that'll make any
difference to how he turns out,

I don't know.

I just felt I wanted to do it.

- Is it everything you wanted?

- For the moment, yes.

I mean, I don't think I'll have any more,

for the reason that I will
get pleasure out of these two,

but I can't see me going on and on and on,

with sort of four or five children.

I think I feel that I'd want to move on

and try and do something else.

When I leave this school,

I'm down for Heathfield
and Southall Manor.

And then maybe I may want
to go to a university,

but I don't know which one yet.

I'd like to do,

maybe shorthand typing,
or something like that.

I left school when I was
16, and went to Paris.

I went to secretarial
college, and got a job.

- What made you decide

to leave school and go to Paris?

- Well, I just wasn't
interested in school,

and just wanted to get away.

- And why did you choose Paris?

- I don't know, it was my parents, really.

Now I've got to a stage in my life

where I've got to make my own decisions.

You've got to learn to
fend for yourself one day.

I went to prep school
boarding when I was nine.

Rupert went at eight,
and both of us hated it.

I hated my prep school.

I just feel it's too
young to send a child off,

and we both feel we'd never
send Thomas and Oliver off,

probably maybe till they're 13.

I think eight's much too young,

so we will definitely keep them at home.

- Do you still want to send them

in the private sector to school?

- I think we will, yes, but as
I said, not till they're 13.

- Why do you
choose the private sector,

as opposed to the state?

- I suppose it's what we
had, it's what we know.

I think both of us probably
were very sheltered.

It's only having been abroad
that you can appreciate more

that people are very different,
cultures are different.

But I think, as I was growing up,

I think probably I was far too sheltered.

- What do you think
about making this programme?

- I just think it's just ridiculous.

I don't see any point in doing it.

I've been very lucky
up to a certain point,

but everyone has their bad times.

And I'm only just beginning,
I mean, I'm only young,

and I'll probably have a lot worse

than I've been through now.

When you're a child, you always
think how nice it would be

to be grown up and independent, and these.

But there are times when I
wish I was sort of three again.

- It just seems a miracle to me.

When I last saw you at
21, you were nervous,

you were chain smoking, you were uptight,

and now you seem happy.

What's happened to you over
these last seven years?

- I suppose Rupert.

I'll give him some credit.

- I'm now chain smoking ever since.

- No, I didn't know
where I was going at 21.

I mean, I suppose I thought
I was reasonably happy at 21,

but I had no kind of direction, no...

I obviously hadn't
found what I had wanted,

and I don't think most people have at 21.

You're still very, very young.

- As a teenager,
Suzi spent her school holidays

on her father's estate in Scotland.

- What sort of things do you do?

- Ride, swim, play tennis, ping-pong.

I might play croquet, things like that.

- What about
the social life, what's that?

- What, in Perthshire?

- Yeah.
- Hmm, it's quite fun.

Well, obviously any child going through

their parents splitting up, age 14,

you're at a very vulnerable age,

and it does, I mean, it
does cut you up, but,

you know, you get over it.

It's not, I mean, there's no point,

there was no point in them
staying together for me,

'cause it was worse, I
mean the rows, and...

It's worse, so if two
people can't live together,

there's no point making yourself.

My father died three years ago.

It's very hard to describe to somebody

how you just take the loss.

It is terribly hard, and even now,

I still can't believe
my father's not here.

It's still sinking in, I think,

even after two and a half years.

He was off in Scotland.

It was in that very bad winter of '81,

and we were literally snowed
in, and I couldn't get out,

and it was three weeks
before Thomas was born.

I wasn't allowed to fly,
no airline would take me,

and the trains were blocked with the snow,

and so I couldn't get there.

And I feel...

I still feel guilty

that I didn't try and get
myself out of here to go, but,

you know, when you're told you
could endanger a baby's life,

you have to rather sit, sit still.

The death of one of your close family

is probably something
you don't ever get over,

and it's a different kind of
problem than anything else.

And it is hard to come to terms with.

And it was really last
year that it sunk in

that he really wasn't around anymore.

- What do
you want most out of life?

- To be happy, and get on with life.

I mean, I don't want to just sit back,

and let it all whiz past.

I mean, you don't know how
long you've got your life for.

I mean, you know, you could
get run over by a bus tomorrow,

so you've gotta make the most
of it while you've got it.

- Do you have any fears

for the future, for yourself?

- No, not so much for myself at all.

I feel if I was going to
have fallen by the wayside,

I'd have done it by now.

I think probably I'm too
staid now to do that.

But maybe I'm wrong.

- When I grow up,

I'd like to find out all
about the moon, and all that.

- At seven,
Nick, a farmer's son,

was at a one-room village
school in the Dales.

- And I said I was interested
in physics and chemistry.

Well, I'm not gonna do that here.

- At 14 he was going

to a Yorkshire boarding school,

and at 21 was reading physics at Oxford.

- Plug it in.
- We'll give it a whirl.

- So what
career are you gonna pursue?

- It depends on
whether I'll be good enough

to do what I want to really do.

I would like, if I can, to do research.

- He is now in America,

an assistant professor at
the University of Wisconsin,

earning $30,000 a year.

- The gas in these experiments
is at a temperature

comparable with that of the sun,

whereas in a power
reactor it would be maybe

10 times the temperature of the sun,

and we're trying to
induce that gas to fuse.

The fusion reaction gives off
energy and produces the power

that would be turned
into electrical energy,

and sent out to the consumer.

- How hot is it in there?

- In there, it's at
about 10 million degrees.

- Nick is a nuclear physicist.

He's using these high
temperatures to fuse atoms,

to try to produce energy which
is free from radioactivity.

- Have to be precisely coordinated
with the positive decay.

- I finished my degree in physics,

and I went on to do a PhD

And having got the PhD,

after, so it took 2 1/2 years to get that,

which was relatively quick,

I went to work at the United Kingdom

Atomic Energy Authority's
Culham laboratory,

which is where they do fusion research,

and that is what I've been
aiming to do throughout my PhD.

But I found when I got there that,

I got a big shock when I found
that my standard of living

went down when I started work.

So, when some people here
had offered me a job,

I thought this might be a good opportunity

to go somewhere else where
the research environment

was a bit more vigorous.

So I came here in November
of 1982, into a blizzard.

The university is substantially different

from an English university
for several reasons.

It's a much bigger university.

Oxford had 10,000, people,
this has 40,000 people.

I guess the mixture of people
who come here are different.

A far bigger fraction of the population

go to university here.

Oxford is full of people
who really are trying

to prove something, I
suppose, or be something,

a lot of people with social
or intellectual pretensions.

You're less aware of
that sort of thing here.

On the other hand, the American system

is much more like the
comprehensive system in England

would set out to try and be.

It takes many more people,

and gets a huge section of the population

to a level where they're really
technically very competent,

and can go out and make
Silicon Valley work.

- Do you have a girlfriend?

- I don't want to answer that.

I don't want to answer
those kind of questions.

I thought that one will come
up, because when I was...

When I was doing the
other one, somebody said,

"What do you think about girls?",

and I said, "I don't answer
questions like that."

Is that the reason you're asking it?

Yeah, I thought so.

The best answer would be to say

that I don't answer questions like that,

but I mean, you know, it was
what I said when I was seven,

and it's still the most sensible,

but I mean, what about them?

- Nick was only 17 when I first met him,

and I knew he was a nice person.

I find him very attractive, and...

He uses his intelligence in
his relationship with me,

which is very important.

A lot of people can be very bright.

- Nick and Jackie met

when they were students at Oxford.

Jackie is doing a post-graduate
course in business studies.

- And what about you, Nick?

Why did you marry Jackie?

- Because she's, I find her attractive,

she's bright and independent, and...

- I mean, if you'd been somebody who,

that had fixed ideas of a
woman's role in marriage,

that meant dinner on the
table at six every evening...

- Ah, didn't I tell you about that?

- I think we would've had problems.

Or if one of us had not wanted children.

- When I grow up,

I'd like to find out all
about the moon, and all that.

- Where did
you get all this brain power?

- All this brain power?

I don't know, did it just happen?

All this brain power,
that's a hard one to answer,

because first I have to accept

that I've got all this brain power,

and that's not the sort of thing
I tend to go around saying.

But I've always been interested in,

from a very early age, in
technical or scientific things.

When I was very young,

I had a big picture
book about the planets,

and I thought this was wonderful.

And I've just been interested
in that sort of thing,

and reading technical
or scientific material

for a long, long time.

I was the only child my
of age in my village,

but I managed to spend my time

talking to adults who were around.

If one is wandering down a country lane,

there is an awful lot to look
at in the world around you.

I remember looking at
various natural phenomena,

and being intrigued to try and understand

what made them tick.

One time I was particularly wrapped up

in how a particular cloud,
which was a very unusual shape,

and how did that work, and
that was the sort of thing

that made me want to go
further into natural sciences.

I think that if I'd been in a city,

I probably would've had more
interaction with people,

and might've developed more

skills in dealing with other kids.

Trying to become a reasonably
well-adjusted person

was for me a bit of a
struggle for a while.

I was given a fantastic opportunity

when I went to university,

and that really saved my bacon.

They'd like to come out for
a holiday in the country,

when we'd like, when I'd like
to have a holiday in the town.

I've been to Leeds a couple of times.

I haven't been to Manchester.

I went to London with the others,

when you did the first programme,

but that's the only time I've been.

- What
attracts you about America?

- It's an exciting place to
be, there's a lot going on,

in terms of research, and other things.

But I really came here to do research,

but there are more opportunities,

and just a general
feeling of more going on

than I had previously.

The place is less hidebound,

it's less bureaucratically tied down,

so it's much easier to go out

and get things done than in England.

- Do you get lonely here?

- You just tend to get stuck
here into your everyday routine

and you don't think about it.

But when you call home,

then you realise how far away you are.

And now it seems acute,

because both our families
are getting older.

Even if you think in terms of seeing them

once every two years.

- That's not so many times.
- You're thinking only

about 10 times, and that's awful,

when you think in those terms,

and realise, you know,
you really are in exile.

- Does this put a pressure

on your relationship?

- No, I think it binds us together,

because we just have
one another over here.

- In 21, some
of the people were saying

that they felt it was immoral
to emigrate, immoral to leave.

Do you have any feelings about that,

since you are the one who's left?

- In my position,

I don't feel that I'm
letting England down,

because I don't think that England

particularly wanted me there,
doing what I was doing.

It had trained me marvellously.

I'd gone through a wonderful
educational system.

Particularly Oxford was a
fantastic experience socially.

Again, it was a great place to
try and develop emotionally,

and the academic standards
there are absolutely superb.

Having trained in a very
academic fashion there,

and I then went out to try

and do something with all that training,

and found that society just
wasn't terribly interested

in what I was trying to do,

so how can I feel that
I'm betraying a country

when it doesn't want me to do
what it's trained me to do?

The big issue for us at the moment is

how we're going to manage to
have kids and run two careers.

We don't want to miss out on the chance

of having a significant career,

and we don't want to miss out
on the chance to have kids,

and to be involved with them.

- But in
those early formative years,

would you be happy for your children

to be brought up by Jackie,

and Jackie not be able to
give them her full attention?

- Well it's not, I mean, that's putting it

in a rather strange way.
- He's bringing them up, too,

you know, it's not just me.

- This is an area,

I pay lip service to the idea

of equal shares on this as well,

and it remains to be seen

whether I would actually
live up to my intention.

- There are several things,
I think, to be said here.

If we both work in academia,

that will make life much easier,

because as things are at
the moment in the States,

if you have a computer at
home, you can come in to teach,

and to give office hours to your students,

but you can work half
of the day from home.

But I don't want to be
the person left behind,

while Nick flies in and
shares an adult life,

with his children, at
college, and working.

I want to be there, too.

- Is she difficult?

- At times, yes.

Whenever we have an argument,

she does have a tendency
to explode, I suppose.

No, to get really miserable
about it, and not...

- We've only been married four years.

Anything could happen, we
could easily drift apart.

There are so many pressures on people.

You just have to work at it.

That's why it's important
that you have the same ideas,

that you want the same kind of life.

- When we were in England,

our big source of arguments was money.

We were always squabbling about money.

But that one, mercifully,

seems to have gone away pretty well.

And we still disagree, but it
isn't a major source of rows.

I mean, a person with one million pounds

is not gonna be much,

is not going to be more unhappy

than a person with two million pounds.

I've never really been aiming for money,

and that's curiously enough
why it was such a surprise.

It really surprised me when I found

that my standard of living mattered to me.

When I finished university,

and I found that I couldn't afford

what I'd been able to afford as a student,

it suddenly caught up with me
for the first time in my life

that I really did care about
how much money I was getting,

and it didn't ever occur
to me that I would.

If I can change the world,
I'd change it into a diamond.

I'd like to think that I, I mean,

I'm hoping that I might do at some stage,

but I don't really think
that I've done anything

you can call a great success.

It would seem really ridiculous

to any of my friends who
watch this, if I said,

"Christ, aren't I a great
success, look at me."

- When I first met you,
I remember I thought,

this was very idealistic, but
it was rather interesting.

While, I asked you why
you're working on fusion,

you said that you wanted
to save the world.

And I think that's a bit embarrassing now,

but I don't think you'd feel the same way

about something that you
didn't feel mattered.

- That's right, I picked
it because I thought

it really was something that
could be useful to people,

hopefully, eventually.

Yes, it would be a disappointment

if I didn't achieve very much,

but I'm not worrying about it very much.

I've just got to go
out and make it happen.

- I don't think you
want to go to university

if you want to be an astronaut.

- Well, I've changed my
mind completely, of course.

I think it was just the
imagination a seven-year-old has.

I might be living in cloud
cuckoo land, you know.

Sort of, Mum and Dad might
say, "No son, that's not life.

"You don't get a job you like."

But I'd like to think I could.

Teachers are undervalued, underrated.

The system is beginning to crumble.

People outside of it don't
realise that, but it is,

and it's very disillusioning.

You know, you don't feel
you're getting anywhere.

And of course, the money as well,

which, whatever the papers
tell you, is abysmal.

- Peter left
his comprehensive school

in Liverpool,

and at 21 was studying
history at London University,

living in student digs.

- The facts were

that I'm not particularly
an intelligent person.

Just reasonably, I suppose,
but I'm not a genius,

and I just went to college
on three reasonable A levels,

and just didn't do very
much work for three years,

just did the bare minimum.

Turned up to lectures, wrote a few essays,

and you get a degree for
it, and it's a joke, really.

Once Carolyn Setford said she loved me.

And I'm going to marry her when I grow up.

Doesn't appeal to me at all at the moment.

But I mean, well, I've just gone 20.

I haven't even been abroad yet in my life,

so there's no way I'm
gonna get settled down.

- What was it about Peter

that you fell in love with?

- Who said anything about love?

I don't know.

We have a very, much the same attitude,

much the same general attitude to life,

even though we're very
different in personality,

and in the things we like to do.

- What is
it about his personality

that attracted you?

- Well, nothing, really, I don't know.

Not a great deal.

- Peter and Rachel
have been married four years,

and met at teacher-training college.

They have just bought their first home,

a terraced house in the
centre of Leicester.

They both have careers.

Peter teaches in a comprehensive school,

Rachel in a college of further education.

- There are two risks,

either for one of us to
follow the other around,

and therefore perhaps become
frustrated and dissatisfied

that you didn't initially
follow your own line,

or your own individual wants,

or there's the risk that you take

that you perhaps do
have to part sometimes,

for jobs, or whatever,

or for what you particularly want to do.

I think the latter risk
is much more worth taking.

- So you
would be prepared to part?

- Yeah, I mean, obviously there
is an element of compromise.

Otherwise, why get married?

- And do you
have any plans for children?

- Not at the moment, no.

I don't suppose we've really
thought about it seriously.

- Why is that?

- Well, I suppose 'cause
we've both got, you know,

things we'd still prefer to be doing.

You know, if you have children,
that immediately limits you.

I don't wanna be limited yet.

- If you choose to have a family,

then you also have a
responsibility to children.

So you know, it's a
very difficult decision.

And although I think most liberated men

would say that they, too, are
involved in that decision,

I think ultimately the responsibility

still comes down on the woman's head.

- Is Peter liberated?

- Well, I think
a lot of men such as Peter

like to think they're liberated,

and I'm not in any way

saying that he's not.

But I think when it comes to the crunch,

you know, the absolute crunch,

are you gonna give up your job
to look after these children?

And then I think it, more often than not,

that decision is made by the
woman rather than the man.

- If you do have children,

would you want them educated

in the way that you've been educated?

- I don't know if things have changed,

but basically you've
still got this emphasis

on just getting through exams, you know,

which isn't really education.

'Cause most of the stuff
you come out of school with

is absolutely useless.

You just don't need it.

- So how
would you bring them up,

educate them?

- Well I don't know, I
suppose the easy answer is,

teach them more relevant things, you know,

get them to think for
themselves a bit more,

which schools don't do enough.

- I mean, would you contemplate

putting them into the
private sector of education?

- No, no, definitely not.

- Why?

- Well, it's just the principle,
that's all there is to it.

- I mean, what is the principle?

- Well, the principle is
that the private schools

help to keep the old class system going.

They're part of it, they perpetuate it,

so I'm certainly not
gonna be involved in that.

- When I came through school
at the end, perhaps, of the...

Well, let's say that the ideals
of the 60s were still there,

even though it was the 70s,

and that one was always led to believe

that there were golden opportunities.

But of course there
aren't, and very much now,

people of my generation
are beginning to realise

what perhaps 16-year-olds know now at 16.

I am only just beginning
to see that now at 27,

that in fact, you know, there aren't,

there's no such thing as, sort of,

mobility, in any sense of the word.

You know, it's very difficult to move up.

- Do you think you've had

as fair an opportunity

as other people?
- Oh god, no.

Of course not.

- In what way?

- A lot of people have
got it made for 'em still,

haven't they?

They've got it all lined up.

- How?

- Well, um...

Like the public school lads.

I don't want to slag off people
in the programme with me,

not slag them off personally.

But I mean, they had it set
up for them, didn't they?

It's a big problem.

It requires a lot of discussion, I think.

The workers do tend to
take a few liberties

as regards strikes.

I would like to think that
democracy's here to stay.

Perhaps we haven't got a full democracy.

In fact, we probably haven't,
but it's a pretty good system.

- Are you surprised by the way

England's being governed?

- I'm not surprised with the people

who govern us at the moment, no.

- Why?
- I've even stopped

being amazed.

- Why?

- Why?

Well, I don't wanna get
dragged into party politics,

but basically this is
the most incompetent,

uncaring, bloody show we've ever had.

Well, if I can't be an astronaut,

I'd like to be a bridewell
sergeant in the police force,

like my dad is.

- Do you want to be rich?

I wouldn't mind, no.

I think once I can get myself
going, I can work solid, yeah.

But it's the motive which
is very hard to acquire.

Yeah.

I'm dead lazy.

- Well, what
are you gonna do about it?

- Not much.

I'm just hard to get.

You know, I'm not the sort of person

who can get charged up very quickly.

I am really lazy, you know.

If I've got things to do,

I'd sooner make a cup of tea
first, and read the paper.

- He always looks on the
negative side of life

before he looks on the positive,

whereas perhaps I'm the opposite,

and that in a sense is
an area of conflict, yes.

Yeah, a clash of personalities, yeah.

- And how do you deal with that?

- Well, as you deal with
all people like that.

You just give them a good
kick, and say, you know,

"Wake up," so, you know,
that kind of thing.

- And do you
see any areas of conflict

in the future for you, in personality?

- No, no, I don't, not really,
because I think we both,

we both appreciate each
other's personalities.

In fact, it would be quite
dull to be exactly the same.

I mean, there's something quite
exciting in being different,

in that it isn't as predictable.

We're not along the
same track all the time.

- On the grass we play
international wrestling.

- Yeah, that's only at summertime, though.

- What have
been for you the best times?

- Tommy Smith scoring the
second goal in Rome, definitely.

One of the all-times.

- Which game was that?

- Which game was that?

That was the European Cup Final, 1977.

You know, after that it was all,

nothing else compares with it, really,

so it's hard to think of anything else.

Oh, I'll tell you what
was another good moment.

A group I played with
were doing quite well,

a few occasions, that was good.

- Tell me about that.

- It's just a local band I
was in till fairly recently.

You know, we just played pubs and that,

but it was very enjoyable.

You know, when you get a
good reaction from people,

it's just one of the best
things you can have, really.

- Do you
ever get that in your work?

- No, god, no.

- Why?

- Well, what are you asking?

If they applaud at the end
of each lesson, or something?

- No, just that excitement.

It's that communication.

- No, no, I don't.

- Do you
think people change much,

or do you think we saw you, the man,

in a seven-year-old boy?

- I thought for a while
that was a bit too simple,

but I think it's true,

because after that, you know,
your barriers begin to go up,

and you learn how to fend off things,

like I was just saying.

And obviously when you're
seven you don't think about it.

You just come out with it.

So yeah, to a point
you reflect that, yeah.

- So the boy at seven

is in a sense the real you?

- Yeah, I suppose, yeah, the sort of,

the essential Peter Davies.

- Whoopee!

- There were nine
other children filmed in 1963.

What of them?

- If we did all love Geoffrey,
and we all want to marry him,

I think I know the one that
he likes best, and that's her.

- And I wasn't talking today,

and Mr. Brown sent me out for nothing.

- I feel like bundling when
there's already a fight.

- If I can't be an astronaut,

I think I'll be a coach driver.

- I read the Financial Times.

- What's
happened to these children?

Where are they, and what are they doing?

We'll see tomorrow night.