15 Minutes of Shame (2021) - full transcript

(birds chirping)

- [Man] I love it when you
pretentious types get it.

It shows how much of a fuckin'
asshole that you really are.

- [Man] Now you have no
friends on our side either,

because you're a
stupid fuckin' cunt.

So I hope you kill yourself.

- [Taylor] I wonder what
her blood looks like.

I'd take her blood
on the streets,

then having to go to
jail for a few years.

- I never heard that
term cancel culture

until after I'd been
cancelled.



- Hey bud, just want
to give you a heads up

and warn you that your behavior

is probably going to end

in someone killing you
and your wife and child.

You are scum.

Fuck you.

Fuck your wife.

Fuck that baby in
the New York Times.

Fuck off forever.

Eat shit and die.

(soft music)

- [Monica] Imagine
waking up one morning

with the whole world,

suddenly knowing your name,
and talking about you.



Not because you cured a disease,

or saved your neighbor's
house from burning down.

Everyone knows who you are,

because your mistake,

your secret, has now
been made public.

- [Reporter] Monica,
look over here!

- [Monica] Trust me, I know a
little something about this.

- [Reporter] Monica, Monica!

Say something, Monica!

- In 1998, I lost my
reputation,

and my dignity,

and I almost lost my life.

- If you are hazy on the
Monica Lewinsky story, at 22,

she and President Clinton
began a relationship

that very long story short ended

up with graphic details
being made public.

- I was branded as a tramp,

tart,

slut,

whore,

bimbo.

Overnight, I went from being
a completely private figure

to a publicly humiliated
one worldwide.

- Monica said at
one point today,

she is seeing a therapist
over her addiction to sex,

and she's seeing a dietician

to overcome her
addiction to food.

You know she could have
solved both of these problems

just by keeping her mouth shut.

(audience laughing)

- [Monica] I was patient zero

of having a reputation
completely destroyed

worldwide because
of the internet.

And I would not be the last.

As the internet
grew and changed.

- You make a profile,
by answering some questions.

- [Monica] I saw it become a
breeding ground for outrage.

- [Reporter] We live in
an outrage culture.

- [Monica] And ridicule.

- Shit.

- [Reporter] Threat from a woman
who sparked a Twitter backlash.

- [Monica] Whether
it was pile-ons.

- [Reporter] Judge and
juries on social media

began weighing in.

- [Monica] Hateful troll mobs.

- The video sparking
outrage on Twitter.

- So mean.

- [Monica] Or cyber harassment.

- Men going after women in
really hostile, aggressive ways.

- Cyber bullying has
tripled in the past year.

- [Monica] Our culture
was drowning in something.

- Shame.

Shame,

shame,

shame.

- [Monica] And I wanted
to understand why.

(upbeat piano music)

- [Monica] So I teamed up
with filmmaker, Max Joseph,

who knows a thing or two

about documenting
internet phenomena.

And together,

we decided to get to the bottom

of this Renaissance
of public shaming.

- Okay, today is the day

I am finally leaving to
go film this documentary.

- [Monica] We talked
to the thought leaders.

- I'm here because I wrote
a book about public shaming.

- I'm asked about cancel
culture probably every day.

- [Max] We talked
to the experts.

- There's something
about social media

that you can get a
flash mob of outrage

against somebody in seconds.

- There is a self-censoring
effect, a chilling effect.

Even if you're witnessing
somebody else become the target.

- The outrage, the bullying.

We are operating
at our lowest level

as a species right now.

- Shaming culture.

- I think we've
gone way too far.

- [Reporter] So what are
the consequences?

- [Monica] How did we get here?

- [Reporter] Celebrities
sex taping...

- [Max] Where is it leading us?

- [Commentator] You hit one
of those trip wires,

the whole world
is gonna blow up.

- [Monica] And where
the fuck are we going?

(tense piano music)

(birds chirping)

- [Max] Well, let me show you
where we're gonna do this.

- [Jon] Wow, look at this.

- [Max] Yeah.

We pulled out all the
stops for you, Jon.

Are you ready to
talk all about shame?

- [Jon] Sure, we could
do that.

- [Max] Jon Ronson is
an author, a journalist,

a podcaster, a screenwriter.

- And I'm here because I wrote
a book about public shaming,

called, So You've
Been Publicly Shamed.

- [Max] The book
was released in 2015

and received a fair
amount of attention.

- For a little while I
became like Mister Shame,

like people would call on me

to adjudicate shaming situations

like does this person
deserve their shame?

I didn't want to be that
person for a bunch of reasons.

One reason is that if I've
learned anything from this,

I've learned that each
individual story

is very nuanced.

There's severities
of transgression.

There's the type of world that
the transgressor comes from.

They tend to be people
who have been deemed

representative of something
that's wrong with society.

And the fact is
sometimes they are,

and sometimes they're not.

I think it's just,

it's really important to
differentiate between, you know,

who is the person being shamed
and what have they done?

- Hi, my name is Matt Colvin.

I live in Chattanooga,
Tennessee,

and I'm known for

my article in the New
York Times about having

17,000 bottles of
hand sanitizer.

- It's a story that
has gone viral.

A Hixson man purchased 18,000
bottles of hand sanitizer.

- It's a story that is
dominating national headlines,

after the New York Times
wrote about Matt Colvin,

stockpiling goods amid
the coronavirus outbreak.

(foregin press non English)
- Matt Colvin.

(foregin press non English)
- Matt Colvin.

- [Max] Matt
Colvin experienced

one of the biggest
shamings of 2020.

- If you are selling
hand sanitizer for $200,

shame on you.
- Who is doing that?

- Shame on you.

- [Max] Pretty much the
world over felt justified

in calling him an asshole.

♪ Matt Colvin,
you're an asshole ♪

- Hey Max, how's it going?

- [Max] Whatever he was,

how did this guy working out
of his garage in Chattanooga?

- This is where
the New York Times

photos were done and everything.

- [Max] Become a magnet
for worldwide shame?

- In early 2020,

I was the owner of a
thriving E-commerce business,

selling things on Amazon.

A lot of times it's
a third-party seller

who Amazon is allowing
to use their platform.

I sold everything from
bird seed to toys, dolls,

going to stores like
Ross and Walmart

and finding things
that were discontinued

or in short supply,

that people were willing to pay

a little bit more for on Amazon

and making my
living off of that.

This patch here is from the time

that I spent in the military.

It's got Iraq and Afghanistan.

I joined the
military after 9/11.

It almost felt
like a civic duty.

I saw a lot of death,
doom, and destruction,

and for my mental
and personal safety,

I needed to get out
of that environment.

Being able to work around

some of the physical
and mental issues

that come and go.

Selling on Amazon
with Amazon handling

the fulfillment for things
gave me that flexibility.

- [Max] And how did you start
getting into hand sanitizer?

- To talk about
the hand sanitizer,

you want to go back to February.

- [News Reporter] We only
have about a dozen cases

that have been diagnosed
in the United States.

Most of those in travelers
from China and the flow...

- [Matt] I had heard about
the coronavirus.

It seemed like something
that was remote

and happening in China.

And I didn't see it
gaining a foothold here.

I tracked things
that were trending

and hand sanitizer was
starting to be a thing.

I bought several thousand
bottles from Dollar Tree.

And then from driving around.

I was selling my stuff at
higher than market pricing,

but I was never
the highest price.

Amazon has conditioned
people that shipping is free.

It's not free to
the small business,

especially if you're
shipping a hazmat substance

like the hand sanitizer that
has to be sent a certain way.

So the prices that
were being charged

were not something that is
indefensible, in my mind.

- [News Reporter] Amazon says

it's blocking or removing
thousands of offers

where bad actors are attempting
to artificially raise prices

on basic need products during
a global health crisis.

- Amazon shut those
listings down,

said that my pricing
was too high,

while Amazon at the same time

was massively inflating
their own prices.

The New York Times was
looking to talk to sellers

that had been shut
down on Amazon.

I've always tried to
advocate for other sellers

and this looked like a way
for me to be able to do that.

They asked a lot of questions
about the inventory.

In the photos wanted
me to look pissed.

The whole article was coached

in that Amazon's
being this big bully,

and we're gonna
expose them for that.

But that's not what
it turned out to be.

(phone buzzing)

When the story came out,

we were in bed and my
phone was going crazy.

And then I read the
article, and I understood.

March 1st, the day after

the first death from
Coronavirus in the US,

Matt Colvin went out
and started buying

hand sanitizer like an asshole.

I was horrified.

It said I was selling a
single bottle for $70,

but that was a pack
of multiple bottles.

Didn't matter.

I was just getting bombarded.

There was a certain
level of glee.

The hate if it
was even possible,

just got ramped up even higher.

- [News Reporter] Matt Colvin
bought nearly 18,000 bottles

of hand sanitizer,

while many are still
searching to find even one.

For Matt Coleman, a pandemic
meant an opportunity.

- [Max] Was Matt's public
shaming anything new?

- [Monica] Or was it
just a new version

of something we've always done?

- So there's this
extraordinary history

of public humiliation.

- [Monica] Tiffany Watt
Smith is a cultural historian

at Queen Mary
University of London.

- In our distant past,

this is still true of
many communities today,

we were living in very
small groups of people,

and it was very important
that everyone kind of pulled

together and we're playing
by the same rules and

things are shared equally,

and no one is hoarding anything.

These kind of societies

punish very quickly
and very severely

anyone who is trying to take
more than their fair share,

anyone who sort of thinks

that they don't have
to abide by the rules.

And societies across the ages

have this kind of
this strange process

of ritualized
public humiliation.

- [Narrator] For many
of our students,

this is the lesson
you've been waiting for.

- [Max] In the beginning,

there was shame.

Swiftly followed by banishment.

In China, they put you in a cage

and leave you at the
gates to the city.

In ancient
Mediterranean cultures,

they'd shave your head and
burn off all your body hair.

(sizzling)
♪ Yeah ♪

- [Matt] In ancient Greece,

citizens could vote
you off the island

and you couldn't come
back for 10 years.

They voted with these shards
of pottery called ostraka,

hence ostracizing.

(bell rings)

♪ Gonna wash my hands ♪

- [Max] Tarring and feathering
first appeared

in 12th century England,

an instant classic.

There was also the bride's
muzzle, the scolds bridle,

the drunkards cloak,
and the cucking stool.

But it was the early 1300's

that witnessed the emergence
of what would become

everyone's favorite public
shaming device, the pillory.

- It was a kind of
wooden contraption,

and you'd put your
arms and your head

kind of through
this contraption,

and that would be
fixed in place.

And you would be made
to kind of parade

to the site of the pillory.

And those parades were vicious.

People would shout abuse,

hurl things at you.

There are examples
of people who died

on their way to the pillory.

This is a person
who is suffering

because they have
done something wrong,

and we have to punish them in
order to tell everyone else

not to do the same thing.

- Some people had actually
found my home address.

In my head, I was
convinced that everything

that I've read that was negative

was about to actually happen.

We went and stayed in an Airbnb.

I'm glad that we did because
about 11 o'clock that night,

someone showed up and
started banging on the door.

I purchased a small handgun,

because I was that concerned
for our family's safety.

- Just don't buy up all the guns

like you did the sanitizer man.

- The fact that somebody
actually recognized who I was,

that shook me.

Some of the items that I sold,

I feel like I did get caught up

and didn't take
everything into account

and did make a mistake with
how high my pricing was.

And it costs me in a big way.

The economic impact from
this has been substantial.

We're dipping into
our emergency funds

and don't really have a way out.

- Someone said to me once,

Twitter purports
to hate tabloids,

but acts exactly like
a tabloid, you know,

ridding the story
of nuance, context.

Just treating somebody as this,

as this one monolithic
aspect of their personality.

I mean, yeah,

British tabloids were
tearing people to shreds

since the dawn of
the printing press.

- [Monica] The
printing revolution

was a big leap for civilization,

for literacy, for culture,
for the spread of knowledge,

but it was also the
heir to the pillory.

- We go from the stocks and
the pillories to the tabloids.

They take no prisoners

when it comes to the
spectacle of public shaming.

They'd make this link
between the sense

that we enjoy seeing people

exposed and punished
in the papers,

and the sense that we're
willing to pay for it.

- [Monica] Technology had
taken our love of shame

out of the town square and
put it onto the newsstand.

And with that, humiliation
had been monetized.

Fast forward to the
1970's when Rupert Murdoch

brought his wildly successful
tabloid formula to America,

where capitalism found a million
new ways to distribute it.

It was the beginning of
a blending and bleeding

of supermarket tabloid culture

into every form of media.

- [News Reporter] Coming up
on E-news, a Week in Review,

celebrities and their sex lives.

- Ratings for my show.

(cheering)

- When I started, I
understood the media

might be interested
in what I did,

but I was not aware
of how overwhelming

that attention would become.

(camera shutters clicking)

- [News Reporter] It's been
reported in the last few minutes

that Diana, Princess of Wales
has been seriously injured

in a car crash in Paris.

- Now there is confirmation

that Diana, Princess
of Wales, has died.

- [Reporter] French officials
say the couple

were being chased by paparazzi.

- [Monica] Diana's
death could have been

a catalyst for change,

an indictment of this
culture of humiliation,

but it wasn't.

(somber music)

And less than five months later,

I would personally come to
understand the price of shame.

- The vote is just in,

an overwhelming vote

in the House of Representatives

as a whole,

to release the details
of the Ken Starr report.

- We're told they're going
to put this on the internet.

I think what is going to
be stunning to people,

is how graphic some
of it is going to be.

- [Monica] Public
humiliation wasn't new,

but public shaming on the
internet was a whole new thing.

(modem connection beeping)

- [News Reporter] It was a
star-filled day for the internet

with some websites getting
20 times the visits

of a normal day.

So many people tried to reach
the congressional websites

to read the Starr Report,

those sites were shut
down by the overload.

- [Monica] There was no
handbook on what to do,

being publicly shamed
on the internet.

I was mortified.

I couldn't draw a border
around how many people knew,

how many people were
reveling in my shame,

and the image of
people laughing,

proliferated like
stars in the night sky,

as it gets darker and darker.

- Monica was a young tramp.

- [Monica] The internet
allowed anyone, anywhere,

to instantly read
about my shaming,

and to take part in it as well.

- When someone is just
a name on a screen

with some of their text,

as well as maybe a
stranger you've never met,

that is not enough information
for our human brains

to fully perceive
them as a human.

- [Max] Doctor Helen Weng
is both a neuroscientist

and a psychologist.

She has spent the
last decade studying

how our brains evolved
to process emotions.

- So one quick
route that our brain

understands the mental
states of others,

is viewing people's
faces and body language.

And our brains process this
information very, very quickly.

If we don't have access
to that information

through the internet,

then it's harder for
us to even think about

what this person might
be thinking or feeling.

We need all of those
inputs to fully understand

that someone is a full human
being with their own feelings.

- [Matt] All it takes is one
mention of price gouging.

And next thing you know,

I'm going down
the rabbit hole of

reading my own press.

There's a part of me that's
searching for an answer

to your question of
am I really that guy?

- [Max] In an election year,

where there was also a
once in a century pandemic,

the New York Times
article on Matt Colvin

got the attention of the world.

- People love to say,
oh, it's the internet.

It's not real,

so I am not responsible for
dehumanizing the person,

the internet is.

The internet is there,

but we are responsible
for the ways

in which we
dehumanize each other.

- [Monica] Roxane Gay is a
writer, professor, editor,

and cultural commentator.

She's won the Eisner award,
a Guggenheim fellowship,

the Penn Freedom to Write Award,

and she's a New York
Times bestselling author.

She's also a big
deal on social media.

- I think social
media is a good idea,

but people ruin everything.

It's a very toxic atmosphere.

It's an atmosphere where the
more marginalized you are,

the more harassment you're
going to receive for existing,

and expressing
thoughts and opinions.

It's a medium now where
people are very punitive.

There is no tolerance
for mistakes or nuance.

It's really unfortunate to see

how the platform has devolved,
it used to be really great.

I loved that you were able
to connect with people

you would never have
the opportunity to meet,

and expect nothing in return,
but sometimes get a response.

And that's just really cool.

It's just like a cocktail party

you can go to in your pajamas.

I think social media
has really allowed

wallflowers to shine.

- The first, maybe
four years of Twitter,

between about 2008 and 2012,
it was kind of utopian.

- You could have conversations
and you could be left alone.

- People were curious
about each other.

- And nobody would be like, oh,

it's time to end you because
you disagree with me.

- The change started
around 2012.

We realized that when
people outside of our circle

transgressed, we could
do something about it.

I remember there was a
heavily pregnant woman

who tried to cancel her
membership to LA Fitness.

LA Fitness wouldn't let
her cancel her membership,

so she went on Twitter
and complained.

(Twiter bird tweet)

(bell ringing)

We got them, we got LA fitness.

We just piled on LA
fitness and we got them.

We hit them with a weapon

that we understood
and they didn't,

which was the social
media shaming.

It was that, whoa,

we've got all this new power.

- For most of modern history,

we've seen information coming
to us from people in power,

from authority figures,
from politicians.

The information only
goes in one direction.

- [Max] Aja Romano is a

writer and journalist,

whose expertise

is internet culture.

- But now because
of social media,

you have people without power

using their collective
voice to speak back.

- [Man] I am leading
a Twitter revolution.

- [Reporter] You're
giving Facebook

a lot of credit for this.

- [Wael] I want to meet Mark
Zuckerberg one day

and thank him.

- I think we see public shaming

being used for
good all the time.

Like a boycott, having
a positive result.

- [Protester] Whose streets?

- [Crowd] Our streets!

- [Protester] Whose streets?

- [Crowd] Our streets!

- [Monica] That long predates
cancel culture.

- [News Reporter] Protests held

at every sea park
around the world.

- There are things that
happen in this world

that are outrageous.

- [Student] I go to UVA!

- Stop (beep) fighting.

- You (beep) racists!

- There's a lot of resentment
and it's reasonable.

- [Protester] Black lives
they matter where?

- [Crowd] Black lives
they matter here!

- People are so
unseenand so unheard,

and they've been
unrepresented for so long,

and you see something
done about it.

That is incredibly satisfying.

- [News Reporter] President
Joe Biden has revoked

the permit needed to build
the Keystone XL pipeline.

- [News Reporter]
Social media posts

calling to stop Asian hate.

- [News Reporter] In city
after city around the world.

- [News Reporter] Watershed
moment for the #MeToo movement.

Harvey Weinstein
sentenced to 23 years.

- [News Reporter] The
NFL's Washington Redskins

are changing the team name

and the team's
Native American logo.

Proof today that
activism matters.

- And I think what started
to happen around that point

was that we fell in love
with this new power too much,

that our standards
began to slip.

And instead of getting
powerful corporations

who had committed transgressions
with actual victims,

we started getting people
for, who had misspoken.

- [Monica] In this picture,
Lindsay can be seen

flipping off the
Tomb of the Unknowns.

- [Woman] And Kim Kardashian
is facing backlash

after flying her
family and friends

to a private island to...

- [Reporter] Mothers all over
are being shamed

for their parenting decisions.

- Because we were too in
love with this new power.

So a day without a shaming,
felt like a day, you know,

picking fingernails
and treading water,

that it felt weird and empty

when there wasn't somebody
who had done something wrong

that we could get.

And that's where we started
disproportionately

shaming people who
didn't deserve it.

- [News Reporter] It's
the viral encounter

that ignited a social
media powder keg.

But now new footage showing
there were other tensions

before that incident.

- Or we just find out
that we got it wrong.

They hadn't done the thing

that we'd all
thought they'd done.

(birds singing)

- I'm from San Diego.

I love having San Diego
as a first, you know,

part of the title of my job,

San Diego Gas and
Electric Locator.

I like that.

That sounds like somebody.

When I landed the job at SDGE,

it felt like my proudest
professional achievement.

When she told me over
the phone, she said,

it's gonna start at 41.05,
is that okay, she asked me.

I put the phone down, okay?

Yeah, it's way more than okay.

And when I first told my
oldest daughter about the job

and she was like, oh, so I guess

our Christmas presents
will be upgraded this year,

which I thought was funny,

but it turned out to be true.

I knew who I was.

I was a locator for San
Diego Gas and Electric,

and I was gonna do
that till I retired.

- [News Reporter] George Floyd
tomorrow

here in Minneapolis.

- [Emmanuel] It's early summer,

eight days past the
George Floyd murder.

I filled out my time sheet

and I started heading
home for the day.

That's when I come across a
Black Lives Matter protest.

I travel east for over a
mile, hand on the wheel,

window down, I got my
hand resting on the door,

and I'm just doing
a series of these,

just a fidgety habit I have.

It's just my hand
tightens up sometimes

at the end of the day.

So I'm doing that,

when I'm approached
by a motorist,

a balding, Caucasian
in his mid 50's.

Pissed, pissed like
I stole his dog.

He does this thing.

And he says, "You're
gonna do this, asshole?

Really? You're
going to do this?"

The light turns green.

He calls me a piece
of shit, speeds away.

And that was it.

Couple hours later, I get a call

from one of
my immediate supervisors.

He tells me there's been a
photo of you in your work truck

posted on Twitter,

and the accusation
is that you're doing

a white supremacist hand gesture

in front of a Black
Lives Matter protest.

(dark music)

The higher ups have
gotten wind of it.

They are taking it very serious.

The following
Monday, I get a call.

We all gathered together
in a conference room.

We haven't sat down 10 seconds
when, before he says, well,

we've decided that there are
too many holes in your story

and we're going
to terminate you.

I asked him, what
are these holes?

Let me fill them
for you right now.

I got to the point where I
raised both my arms and I say,

"You do see this, right?

You see the color
of my skin, right?

So you see how
preposterous it would be

for me to be a white supremacist
when I'm not white myself.

Well, so now it's been
determined, it's official.

I'm terminated.

- [Woman] If it
wasn't so serious

I would bag on you so hard
for all of this, it's funny.

- [Emmanuel] What's funny,
go ahead, bag on me.

What's funny about it?

- [Woman] Everyone's like,
oh, you're trying to battle

like the white
supremacist system.

You're trying to battle this
institutionalized racism.

And all it takes is a white dude

saying that this guy's a racist

for a Mexican dude
to lose his job.

That's the irony of it.

- There was no punch line
in this shit, no punch line.

- I never heard that
term, cancel culture,

until after I'd been canceled.

First time I heard it,

this cancel culture
stuff has got to go.

I had to look it up.

Like what is that?

- The origins of the
term cancel culture

are a little nebulous.

You can trace back
dating from 1991.

when the Wesley Snipes film
"New Jack City" came out.

(upbeat music)

Basically there's a
scene where Wesley Snipes

is breaking up with
one of his girlfriends,

or mistresses, and he says-

- Cancel that bitch.

I'll buy another one.

- Right before the term, cancel
culture, really takes off.

At the end of 2014,
December, 2014,

you have an episode
of Love and Hip Hop.

- I have a daughter.

- You what?

- We're all gonna be
one big happy family.

- You're canceled.

You're canceled.

- It took off from there.

People started using it
initially humorously.

- Finally, welcome to my
caucasian home, come inside.

- Well that's over,
it's canceled.

- And then it sort of.

(clicking)
(gunshot)

(upbeat music)

♪ Check it out ♪

- I want to apologize
to everybody.

- I want to apologize.

- I'm simply here to apologize.

- I'm just genuinely sorry.

I'm sorry.

- I'm sorry.

- I am so unbelievably sorry.

- And I'm really sorry.

- I beg for your forgiveness.

- I just call it
consequence culture.

It's when people make missteps
or mistakes and get caught,

and have to face the
public court of opinion.

Does it happen sometimes happen
to people who are innocent?

Yes, and just like with
the judicial system,

we have to address that.

It just, it's not canceling.

There's consequences.

And sometimes the consequences

for sexually harassing
women at your job

is to lose that job.

I'm sorry, but maybe you
shouldn't have grabbed her ass.

- You say something offensive,

and then you're offended
that people are offended.

I don't know what's
wrong with you.

Stop saying offensive things.

Stop saying stupid things.

Stop saying racist things.

- [Max] Kara Swisher does a lot.

- All right, let's
answer some questions

from the New York Times.

I'm Editor at Large,
at New York magazine.

What do I think will come out

of these congressional hearings?

Nothing.

I do commentary for NBC.

They make the market,

and then they own the market.

And I do podcasts for Vox media.

I have a lot of content,
I make a lot of content.

- [Max] She's also known
as one of Silicon Valley's

most feared, but
respected journalists.

- What would happen
is for years,

people got to say these
things without any price.

Other people who
never got to talk

are sick and tired
of listening to them,

and they're sick and tired
of not having a voice too.

And so they're saying your
voice on your elite platform

has dominated for so long,

and we don't want to
listen to you anymore.

And we're gonna tell you why.

And they're suddenly
like, I can't speak.

People in power do not
willingly give up power.

You take it from them.

And that's what's
happening right now.

So it's gonna be
ugly for a while.

- The best use of call
out culture for me

is to help marginalized
people find a voice.

And it's not so coincidental
at the same time,

we're finding our voices,

and calling out white
supremacy and the patriarchy,

and ableism and homophobia
and transphobia,

and all the isms,

that now we're being criticized,

and told that we're
lacking reason

and we're lacking civility

and we are suppressing free
speech and all that stuff.

I think that we can use it,

but we have to use
it judiciously.

- [Monica] Loretta J
Ross has been fighting

for human, civil, and
women's reproductive rights,

her entire life,

and has long been a luminary
in activist communities.

She's also a professor
at Smith College,

where she teaches courses

on both intersectionality
and white supremacy.

- I think call-outs are
wonderful when they're used

to bring corporations
into accountability,

to bring political figures
who are unreachable

into accountability,

because then public
shaming actually works.

But public shaming of
people never is effective.

It doesn't really
take into account

the humanity of the
person being called out.

It doesn't set up any
kind of opportunity

to actually achieve
accountability.

It's a way of trying to
hold people accountable,

theoretically,

but doing it in such
a publicly shaming way

that you actually
achieve another goal,

and that is to blow up
somebody else's life.

- I think outrage is
one of those things

that spreads very quickly

and all too often, and I
include everyone in this,

we don't do any research.

We just sort of take this
person at face value,

when they say this
outrageous thing happened

and it just spreads.

- This guy who did this picture.

I think he either he
wanted Twitter followers

or he wanted to be a part
of the movement somehow,

but he kinda lost his
venom early in the fight.

- We spoke to the man

who originally posted
the picture on Twitter.

He has since deleted his account

and says he may
have gotten spun up

about the interaction
and misinterpreted it.

- That was a punch in
the gut, another one,

but this couple
who re-posted it,

recontacted SDGE,

they never did, like
blew the picture up,

changed the filter so you
could see my face more.

Time is compounding the

uncomfortable uneasiness
uncertainty

that I'm feeling, because
now I'm running out of money.

Right? I had some savings.

I had a 401k, but
it's depleting.

I've tried to downsize,
get a smaller place.

And without a job
who rents to you?

Nobody.

(birds chirping)

- [Jon] The problem with
social media justice

is that we really want
to do the right thing.

We really want to right wrongs,

and be moral, good,
ethical, empathetic people.

But maybe because we
want that so much,

sometimes it gets a little
bit dizzying and we, you know,

tear somebody to
shreds on no evidence,

not because we're
cruel and horrible,

but because we want
to do the right thing,

we want to do something good.

- We used to have zap
squads where we'd go around

and what would probably
now be called doxing,

people who were rapists,

who couldn't be
brought to account

in the criminal justice system

and we'd out them
in the community,

like this person is a
rapist, don't hire them,

that kind of thing.

Lawyers used to get
really nervous

around our tactics back then.

We didn't pay any attention.

We took a lot of
joy out of that.

Almost,

and that's why I
tend to describe

the whole call-out culture,

having more than a
tinge of sadism in it,

because I do remember the
joy of calling out people.

I cringe thinking about

how much satisfaction
I got out of that.

- There are studies that show
that dopamine is released

when we see a transgressor
being punished.

You see now, I think
it's possible

that we just are chasing

that kind of hit that we get

when we see someone that we've
perceived to be a wrongdoer,

get that kind of comeuppance.

- People talk a lot
about moral outrage.

They talk about injustice.

You know what they're
not really talking about

is the pleasure.

They're not talking
about why we might

get something from
this experience

that is more than morality,

but is actually just about fun.

You know, why do we
want to be spectators

of these terrible pile-ons?

Perhaps the answer is what I
study, which is Schadenfreude.

- [Max] Tiffany Watt Smith

is also one of the
world's leading experts

in Schadenfreude.

- Schaden, from damage, Freude,
from joy, Schadenfreude.

It's okay.

The pleasure that you get

in seeing someone
else's misfortune.

We feel a lot of
Schadenfreude around envy.

You know, when all these
people who are better than us

and better looking than
us and richer than us,

and they get taken
down a peg or two,

and that sort of makes us
feel good in that moment.

We see these extraordinary

curated images of
people's lives.

And of course, we
compare ourselves to them

and we feel like losers.

And of course,

a community of losers is
exactly the kind of community

that wants that hit
of Schadenfreude,

that wants to feel that
ersatz moment of superiority.

(shouting)

(rock music)

There were these
Dutch psychologists

and they got football
fans to allow their faces

to be rigged up with
electromyography pads.

And they show these
football fans,

videos of their own
team scoring a goal.

And as you'd expect,

everyone was pleased
and smiled and so on.

And then they showed them videos

of their arch rival
missing goals.

(crowd cheering)

At those videos, that's when
they smiled most broadly,

and most quickly,

it wasn't seeing their
own teams score a goal,

it was seeing their
rivals miss a goal.

(crowd cheering)

What that experiment shows

is that we enjoy seeing
other people fail

more than we enjoy
winning ourselves.

- [Max] I don't know much about
European soccer rivalries,

but we've got a
rivalry here in the US

that's been heating
up for decades.

(cheering and applause)

- [Crowd] U-S-A!

- Freedom!

- What's being found
over and over again

is that Schadenfreude
is at its most intense

when we are divided
into rival tribes.

And that's a very,
very dangerous place

for a society to be in.

(dog barking)

- My husband is a Republican.

My brother's incredibly
conservative.

I am incredibly liberal.

And somehow we learn
how to coexist.

Even though you are at
political ends of the spectrum,

they're still your
friends and family,

and they make fun of you,

and just sort of rip on you.

It's like this sort of
a blue-collar thing.

When people give it to me,
I can dish it right back,

and it's just, it's funny.

- How'd you get the camera, I
thought he was the director.

- Shut up.

- I wanted to be in politics,
helping women electeds.

I had almost 10 years working

for these amazing female
elected officials.

And through that,

I was able to plan my next step.

I had a passion for
cancer advocacy.

My father died at a very
young age from throat cancer.

I wanted to work in the field,

advocating for cancer patients
trying to get funding.

And I did that.

I used Facebook and my
Facebook was mostly my kids.

My settings I have
it set to private.

Mostly everybody
was someone I knew

or had some sort of
interaction with.

I didn't have any
strangers on my page,

which makes all of
this more strange.

Okay, I did.

Sorry, someone told me I could-

That morning that the
incident happened,

the only reason why I
was even on social media,

because I was trying
to source toilet paper

from mommy groups.

As I go on social media,

I see all these articles
about the disbelief

that there was a need for
ventilators in New York state.

And I got annoyed.

And so I posted the articles,

and I just wrote,

(keyboard keys clicking)

(digital chime)

(digital chime)

(keyboard keys clicking)

(digital chime)

and I see, you know,

a friend says
"this isn't real."

Like fine, if you
don't think it's real,

don't go to the hospital.

(keyboard keys clicking)

(digital chime)

And then my kids were
clamoring at the door.

I went outside for a little bit.

And when I came back,
everything was just

lit up.

I was tagged by someone who
was in my Facebook friends.

He had given this commentary

to someone who's
a public figure.

My friends were telling
me it's Michael Caputo,

who's going after you and

then I got scared.

- [Caputo] People like you,

who sit here and take
uncorroborated testimony.

- I knew how
vicious he could be.

- Decent man, and ruin him
because it gets you ratings.

Enough of that.

- I knew he had
thousands of followers.

Then I start to get calls
and I'm getting text messages

from people I don't know,

and it's like literally my
whole world is vibrating.

I issue an apology right away.

But the frenzy
just kept growing.

I would see people
making comments

saying she has a bot
operation on her.

Michael Caputo kept
tagging my employer.

And then our newspaper did
a story saying I was fired.

And that's how I
found out I was fired.

I was at the bottom
of this avalanche,

except I didn't know
I was in an avalanche,

and I was immediately
so humiliated.

I went to a dark place.

I just became this comedic
thing on the internet.

And people were just
tearing me apart.

- [Max] Laura made a bad joke
that offended a lot of people,

but how much of that
outrage was even real?

- So in the earlier days of
organized online hate mobs,

we saw the use of fake
accounts and bots.

- [Monica] Yasmin Green heads up

research and
development at Jigsaw,

which is an independent
unit within Google,

dedicated to solving
toxicity on the internet.

- Then we started
to see fake accounts

with a little bit of
investment in them,

you know a lot of photos.

They had presence on
different platforms.

The major platforms actually
got quite good at spotting

when there was fake accounts,

or when somebody was operating
in a different country

to the one they
were claiming to be.

The way this is evolved is,

kind of worries me for our
ability to be able to detect it.

And that is because
the new innovation is,

and I saw this in the troll
farms in the Philippines,

is that rather than trying
to buy fake accounts,

or create fake accounts,

they were starting to rent
the accounts of real people.

And once either
you convince people

to do this type of
thing in their own name,

you understand that this is a
threat that is not going away.

- Two, three days later,

I think it's gonna die down.

Then I get a call from a friend

that says you were on
Sean Hannity last night.

I said, oh great.

- So many villains
to choose from sadly

in the midst of a
national emergency.

But well, there are
two hospital executives

hoping that Donald
Trump's supporters

get infected with coronavirus.

- One exec wrote, quoting here,

Trump supporters need to pledge

to give up their ventilators
for someone else.

- First of all,

the fact that
hospital executives

are wishing an
illness on anyone.

- [Laura] The story
starts to proliferate

into larger media markets.

- A high ranking Roswell
Park employee has been fired

following negative comments

that the person made on
social media about supporters.

- That was the story
that got regurgitated

into all the national
media outlets.

The Hill ran that story.

(digital chimes)

And then that same article
was then regurgitated

and bastardized in these
alt-right websites.

They got a lot of play.

The commentary

on the page, I mean,
they were getting

thousands of comments
on their article.

I feel like I was
just clickbait.

- Trolling women is big
business on the internet.

I mean, there's an
incredible amount of profit

to be made from the
distortion and control

of people's lives.

- [Max] Safiya
Noble is a Professor

of African-American and
Gender Studies at UCLA,

a board member of the cyber
civil rights initiative,

and the author of
Algorithms of Oppression.

- Clicking on those stories,
reading those stories

is a money generator
for those platforms.

And the more they
can spin that story

in a shameful, degrading,
titillating way,

the more money
they're gonna make.

So we want to always remember

that across all
internet platforms

engagement is the
business model.

If the engagement
is around misogyny,

that's just as profitable

as if the engagement
is around education

or some other type
of entertainment.

This is the big money-making
model of the internet.

(soft music)

(birds chirping)

- [Max] Tristan Harris
used to work at Google,

but then he had a crisis
of faith, left the company,

and started the Center
for Humane Technology.

The Atlantic once called him

the closest thing Silicon
Valley has to a conscience.

If someone could
tell us how big tech

is making money off of
our humiliation, it's him.

- So, you know,

how does the business model
relate to these problems?

Well, how much have you paid

for your Facebook
account recently?

Or Twitter?

Well, if you haven't
paid anything,

then what are they making
$500 billion of market value

and their stock price from?

Well, they're selling
human attention,

because the business
model is advertising,

but it's not just that

they want to show you
a rectangle with an ad.

To get you to see those ads,

it means they have to
get your attention.

So one study from NYU found

that for every word
of moral outrage,

negative, moral emotions,
that you added to a tweet,

it's horrible, it's a
disgrace, it's an abomination,

it increased the
retweet rate by 13%.

It's not like at Twitter
there's just Jack Dorsey,

sitting at the top,

thinking that tweet, I'll
promote that tweet over there.

And this that's a good one,

I'll promote that
tweet over there.

In fact, the reason these tech
companies are so profitable,

is that a machine is choosing

which tweets to show at
the very top of the list.

If you think about you
driving down the highway,

and you had a computer
that was like, okay,

what does this person want?

And we're gonna determine that

based on what
their eyes look at.

Well, when you drive
down a highway,

suddenly there's a big car crash

and your eye just like stares

at this car crash as you go by,

the computer says, oh, I know
this person wants car crashes.

And they start
feeding you car crash

after car crash after car crash.

And that's what the
Twitter algorithm is like.

(upbeat orchestral music)

- One of the things
we want to understand

is that the way most people

think of algorithms
or kind of AI systems,

is most people think of these

as being just neutral
and objective.

But you see what
they're interested in

is drawing eyeballs to
material in their platforms.

(uptempo orchestral music)

- They kind of created
this Frankenstein.

All it knows is, oh,
if that gets attention,

then my job is to elevate it,

make sure everyone
sees that thing.

I often think about being a kid

on the playgrounds, you know,

when you see the two kids

kind of just barely start
to disagree with each other,

and some third kid
shows up and goes,

fight, fight, fight, fight.

Well, that's like Twitter.

(dramatic orchestral music)

- The algorithmic
bias is really about

looking for titillating
kinds of content.

And much of that is racist,

it's sexist, it's inflammatory.

(dramatic orchestral music)

And it's also a big business.

- You think about
outrage as an emotion.

It causes you to shut down

and act more reactively
and impulsively.

And usually in that
reactive action,

we're not gonna like yell
at the plant in our room,

we're gonna hit the
button that's available

to show other people
why we're right.

- And the more that people
look at it and click on it,

the more those companies make.

- I say why I'm angry, I'm
contributing more content.

You didn't have to
pay me for that.

So I'm a useful idiot in a scam

to create more attention
for everyone else.

(dramatic orchestral music)

You run that algorithm
for three to 10 years,

and you let society run
through that washing machine.

That dystopia is exactly the
world that we live in now.

We're more profitable if
we're addicted, outraged,

irritable, disinformed,
and polarized,

than if we're a human being.

(dramatic orchestral music)

(water burbles)

- Okay, so there are
a couple of things

that we have to understand.

When you pick up your
phone, when you log on,

it's not just a transaction,

you're actually going somewhere.

And the place that you're going

is a powerful
psychological space.

- [Max] Mary Aiken
is one of the world's

leading experts in
forensic cyber psychology.

She works with Interpol,

the European Cyber Crime Center,

and the United States government

to help track down cyber
criminals around the world.

- Human behavior changes online.

There are powerful psychological
drivers, or effects,

like the online
disinhibition effect.

Online disinhibition
is like inebriation,

or being drunk online.

It means that you
do things online

that you wouldn't do
in the real world.

As we're given opportunities
to have platforms

where we can actively
target people relentlessly,

what we've seen is
decreasing levels of empathy

in students surveyed
across the US,

and increasing
levels of narcissism.

As we continue our
journey with technology,

I think the most important thing

is that we remember
what it is to be human.

If however, we see the
rise of the narcissists

then we're going to

live in a very ugly
society going forward.

I'm Amy Goodman.

Michael Caputo, a long-time
Republican political operative,

and Trump ally was
appointed last week

as Assistant Secretary
for Public Affairs at HHS.

- Michael Caputo, who
managed the effort against me

was appointed to
the White House.

- [Reporter] Michael Caputo
has no health background,

no science background
whatsoever,

but in April, the
Trump White House

installed him as
the top spokesperson

at the Department of
Health and Human Services.

- Department of Health
and Human Services'

new spokesperson repeatedly
made racist comments

about Chinese people
and claimed Democrats

wanted the coronavirus
to kill thousands.

- His employer said, so what?

And he said, so what?

So what I said these things?

- A really bad,

and I think probably
unexpected consequence

of the over use of public
shaming as a weapon

is that some
transgressors are mutated

to become impervious to shame.

- If you look at
Darwinian principles

of survival of the fittest,

what we're looking at is
survival of the shameless.

- Some trolls are misogynists,
some are homophobes,

some are genuinely cruel.

The challenge is
that you rarely know

which flavor of troll they are,

and which are going

to take it too far

and bring it off of the
internet and into the world.

- [Taylor] I had applied
to eight different

colleges and universities,

and I got a text message from
my mom in my English class

in my senior year saying,

"I have one more school
for you to apply to,

and it's American University."

And so I got to see American
University's campus.

And I walked around the
quad and I was able to see

myself there and to really think

like I could definitely
just sit out on the grass

and just relax, like
a college student.

And I applied to American,

and that ended up
being my first choice.

As a black student at AU,

I was gonna put
in a bunch of work

to try and make sure
that the university

was a better place than
the place that I came into.

I was Vice President
for Student Advocates

for Native Communities.

I was involved in the
Black Student Alliance.

- So much of who she is today

is who she was when
she was growing up.

- When I was in
elementary school,

I wanted to be an astronaut,

but I'm actually
afraid of heights,

so that kind of
went out the window.

- [Kim] We always were
ready to prepare her

for understanding who she was.

- [Taylor] My dad's mom went
to the March on Washington.

My grandmother did
sit-ins with SNCC.

- Whether that meant
understanding

her own family roots

or understanding
the accomplishments

of people of color.

- I came from a long
line of freedom fighters,

and that was what I really
was interested in doing.

I became a member

of Alpha Kappa Alpha
Sorority Incorporated.

And I became the intercultural
Greek Collective President.

By the time that I was a junior,

I was like, okay but
like what's next?

And I decided that
I needed to run

for Student
Government President.

I remember stopping students

that were just walking
on the way to class.

Hey, hold on a second.

Have you voted for Student
Government President?

I'm running, please vote.

The odds were not in my favor,
it looked like at first.

And the person's like.

- Taylor Dumpson.
(crowd cheering)

- I don't have words for this.

I just,

I don't have any words.

And then I went home
and I went to sleep,

and I woke up.

And when I was coming
out of the train,

I was reading my phone,

and I had seen a message
from one of my classmates,

who said, Taylor, I don't
know if you've seen this yet,

but I just wanted to
share it with you.

- [News Reporter] A
still unidentified person

committed the
on-campus hate crime,

stringing up
bananas with nooses,

with the initials of the
historically black sorority

Dumpson belongs to, and
other racist messages.

- I remember going
to the bathroom,

locking myself in the far
stall, and I called my mom.

- At this point we have a number
of outside investigators,

including the FBI,
including the...

- [Taylor] I hadn't
processed anything.

I was going into,
okay, crisis mode.

How do I make sure
that students are safe?

I didn't really give
myself the space to feel.

It was like, everybody's
looking to you to be president,

so you don't really
have a chance to process

that this is targeting you.

- You know, when you
see public shaming,

people are trying to shame them

for things that they've done.

But the harassment
that is identity-based,

is bigotry in action.

And they're not the same thing.

When people are harassed
for their identity,

that harassment sometimes
ends in a noose.

It sometimes ends in a murder.

Whereas when someone is
being publicly shamed

for a mistake that they've made,

they're generally gonna
reap some repercussions,

and some of those
repercussions are horrible,

but they're not going to lose
their life at the end of it.

- [Loretta] We kept
warning people

that these storm
clouds were coming,

but we felt like Chicken Little,

because nobody was listening,

particularly with the
elections of Bill Clinton,

and then the election
of President Obama,

everybody thought
that it was all over,

that we have turned
the corner on

a dreadful
history in America,

and we were gonna march
forward into the 21st century.

And we saw how that
turned out, didn't we?

- [Crowd] You will not
replace us!

You will not replace us!

- [Loretta] There's a white
grievance culture

that's still out there resentful
of the women's movement,

resentful of civil rights,

resentful of the fact that
their power to dominate

everything in our society
is being challenged

by these social movements.

(crowds yelling and
chanting indistinctly)

- [Taylor] My mom had just
dropped me off

at my apartment,

and she was like, "Taylor,
you need to get some sleep."

I got an email from the
Anti-Defamation League.

We would like to
notify you about

an emerging online
campaign targeting

Student Body President
Taylor Dumpson.

Andrew Anglin, founder
of the neo-Nazi website,

The Daily Stormer, is
encouraging his followers

to troll Miss Dumpson and any
related social media accounts.

Andrew Anglin runs a website
called The Daily Stormer,

which is one of
the most clicked on

white supremacist
websites in the world.

He wrote the article and
published that actually

on a section called Race War.

These comments that
I saw initially

were underneath of his article,

but that was not
where they stopped.

He really opened up Pandora's
Box and you can't close that.

Those people left
The Daily Stormer,

and continued to comment
on any kind of post

where there's a comment section

that has something
to do with me.

- [News Reporter] A
hate-filled feeding frenzy

began when the website
published her name,

photo, contact information,
and social media accounts.

- [Man] He told his many,
many followers to go get her.

- My heart jumped to my throat.

I started shaking.

I got up and I
closed the blinds.

I turned the lights off.

I locked the doors.

I read the comments and
I read the articles.

I looked at every
single comment.

I've seen the N word, I've
heard the N word in person.

But seeing in that way, people
were gendering racial slurs.

So they weren't just
calling me a nigger,

they were calling me
a nigger agitator.

They weren't just calling
me a nigger agitator,

they were calling me a Negress.

They weren't just
calling me a Negress,

they were calling me a sheboon.

Sometimes people
think of harassment

as one person saying
a bunch of things.

But what happens when
it's hundreds of people

saying one thing?

- Everyone is not
equal on the internet.

People who are vulnerable are
often made more vulnerable.

People who are powerful are
often made even more powerful.

There are already so many ways

in which harms are
enacted against people,

vulnerable people, people of
color, trans people, women.

When you are fomenting hate
or misognying on the internet,

you really don't have,

no one's gonna hold
you accountable.

It's like the ultimate
cover for crime.

- Initially I filed
a police report,

but I'm sitting here
right now I can't say that

I remember them following
up too much on that.

They were very much like,

there's not much
we can do for you.

It's like online.

I mean, it's not really
crossing the line.

And I'm like, it's illegal to
place a threat over the phone.

So like, I don't
really understand

what you're talking about.

- [Max] The legal situation
surrounding cyber harassment

in the United States
is a bit nebulous.

So we went to talk to someone

who could demystify it for us.

- I've been described
as a renegade lawyer,

as a social justice warrior,

as a complete asshole.
(laughs)

- [Monica] Carrie Goldberg
is one of the few lawyers

in the US that specializes

in defending victims
of cyber harassment.

- It was the victim of a
retaliatory ex-boyfriend,

and I couldn't find a
lawyer who could help me.

And when I finally got to
the other side of my crisis,

I stopped everything.

I left my very secure
job at a non-profit,

and started this law firm.

Social media companies
are the most malicious,

but untouchable actor when
it comes to online harms.

We have no right to demand
that they remove our content.

Even if they have policies,

there is no legal obligation

for them to enforce
those policies.

Try to find anywhere
on Facebook or Google,

where you have some
sort of ability

to email or contact somebody.

- You don't really hear
back from Facebook.

They just say, thank you.

If you feel like
you're being harassed,

you can just block this person.

- Mark Zuckerberg
has created a city

that has no police, has
no firemen or firewomen.

They have no water
department that works.

They have no electrical
department that's regular,

but they collect all the rent
for all of us that live there.

And every night
they go, good luck.

- They won't take
responsibility.

I think it's because of hubris.

I think it's
because of laziness.

But most of all, I think
it's because of section 230.

("Beethoven's Ninth Symphony")

(gun firing)

- [Max] Section 230 has been
in the news a lot lately,

because everybody seems
to have a problem with it,

but they just can't
agree on how to fix it.

Section 230 is part of a law
that says that tech companies

can't be sued for anything
users post on their platforms.

But the thing is when
it was passed in 1996,

it was actually a good thing.

Without having to
worry about being sued,

plucky tech startups
could innovate and create.

But now as online harms
become an everyday reality,

they're being forced to grapple

with their broad
immunity more and more.

- Mister Dorsey

from Twitter,
the floor is yours.

- We acknowledged
there's still concerns

around how we moderate content,

and specifically our
use of section 230.

- I do think that we
have responsibilities,

and it may make sense
for there to be liability

for some of the content
that is on the platform.

- I'm in media, if I get
it wrong, I get sued.

Companies like Facebook or any
of these internet companies

are not liable for anything.

Why do you think
Facebook's so profitable?

Because they don't have to
pay for cleaning things.

If you don't have to pay

for cleaning the river
that you've polluted,

you could make a lot of money.

Over the last 20 years,

those companies have
become the most wealthy,

omnipotent companies in the
history of the universe.

You're a cheap date
to these people.

They are the richest people
in the history of Earth.

The top 10 richest people are
all tech people, by the way.

- And yet we don't
have the ability,

because of federal law,
to hold them accountable,

if our life has
been destroyed.

- We had a final assignment
to create a wearable sculpture

that explains who we are.

I can see the physical toll,

my weight fluctuating,

probably like 105
pounds in that picture.

The next few months was
me going to counseling,

me trying to figure
out how to walk

on American University's campus,

while constantly being triggered

every single day that I'm there.

I was diagnosed with PTSD,
depression, and anxiety.

- We need cyber civil rights,
because we need civil rights.

We need to understand
the way in which

what happens on the
internet directly erodes

people's civil and human
and sovereign rights.

(somber music)

- So, imagine you get a video

where someone has committed
some transgression,

and then you see them being
sort of pulled up for it,

or called out for
it in some way,

and you get to feel
pleased about that.

And then you see another video

kind of six months down the line

where that person has,
you know, lost their job,

and they're
incredibly depressed.

If you were to see that
video of someone suffering

the terrible consequences

of what has befallen
them six months earlier,

you might well
think about the role

that you played in
that whole experience.

- [Monica] There is actually
a country in the world

that did reconsider their
role in online harms.

But it took a tragedy
to wake them up.

- [Woman] Big, old,
tough Charlotte,

even big old opinionated,
tough Charlotte,

can sometimes be
punched down too.

You talking about depression
is really admirable.

- [Man] It's weird, isn't it?

I would never have known that.

- [Man] In 2012,
Charlotte was admitted

to hospital with depression

after she received a barrage
of vicious comments on Twitter.

She posted a picture of herself

holding tablets with a comment,

hope this ends the misery.

- After a long and public
struggle with depression,

television personality,
Charlotte Dawson's life,

has ended tragically, with her
body discovered this morning

at her Woolloomooloo home.

- A petition started in
response to Charlotte's death.

Hundreds and thousands of people

said enough is enough.

This should not be happening.

Government needs to step in

and start regulating
the internet.

- [Monica] Julie Inman Grant

is Australia's
eSafety Commissioner.

- I'm essentially a
regulator of social media,

and our goal is to keep
all Australians safer

and to help them have more
positive experiences online.

If a child in the US was
being seriously cyber bullied,

and reported to
Facebook or Instagram,

and it didn't come down, they
wouldn't have any recourse.

So if a social media company

doesn't take down content

that we deem to be
seriously harmful,

we can compel them
to take them down

through a range of civil
penalties, including fines.

- [Max] And Australia
isn't the only country

that's passed legislation
to curb online harms.

The UK, France, Germany and
India have also passed acts

to protect their
citizens on the internet,

giving us a bunch of examples
of how we might reconcile

free speech with all
those other civil rights.

But here in the US, we
still have section 230.

(electric blower whirrs)

So if you want to hold
someone accountable, legally,

you've got to think a
little outside the box.

- By December of 2017,

they had exhausted all credible
leads on the hate crime.

And so while I was an intern
at the lawyers committee,

I remember going to my
supervisor and being like,

can we sue neo-Nazis?

And she was like,
yeah, you can do that.

Somebody needs to
be held accountable

for what happened to me.

We figured out who
we needed to sue.

And then I was in an intake
meeting that afternoon.

Andrew Anglin was a
foregone conclusion,

but because we had
compiled screenshots

from some of the messages,

we were able to identify people

based on their Twitter handles.

We were able to make a
kind of creative argument

that the online harassment
impacted my ability

to go to school and
to utilize my campus

to the fullest capacity.

My attorneys, they didn't
promise me anything.

And they were like, you know,

this is going to be
really, really difficult.

- [Interviewer]
What would you say

to the Andrew
Anglins of the world?

- You picked the wrong one.

And you picked somebody
that wasn't gonna back down.

- [Interviewer]
Dumpson won her case.

(compelling piano music)

- We sued three people
and one corporation,

but two people and the
corporation did not respond,

but one of the
individuals did respond.

That person happens
to be around my age.

One of the things
that we discussed

with my attorneys
in the beginning

was what did I want
out of litigation?

I remember doing a class,
it was about punishment.

One of the things
that we studied

was different forms
of punishment,

and who do you punish for?

Is the purpose rehabilitation?

Is it retribution?

I had been exposed to
what restorative justice

looked like and
what it could be.

So I was really interested
in trying to incorporate

those kinds of principles
into a settlement.

He was required to do 200
hours of community service

with a racial
justice organization.

He was required to
renounce white supremacy,

and we scheduled an apology.

I gave sort of like a
victim impact statement,

and I was looking him in
his eye the entire time.

After I spoke, then he spoke.

After that, I felt like I was
able to take my next steps,

which were to close that
chapter of the book.

- Calling in is a
call-out done with love,

'cause we share a desire
to hold people accountable,

not only for the harm they do,

but help them learn how not
to do more harm in the future.

People change from the inside

because they want to call on
themselves to be better people.

I am not so much a turn
the other cheek girl

that I just think
that restorative

or transformative or
calling in is available,

or will work with everybody.

I just think we
overused calling out

in situations where
it being less punitive

could actually become a
more effective strategy.

And even if the person is wrong,

you can offer them the grace
of being wrong about it.

- After everything went down,

I hadn't had any
sort of release.

And I got an email,

I got an email and
he's like, hey dude,

I just wanted to
let you know that

I don't feel like you
did anything wrong.

You were just trying to
provide for your family,

and you got caught up in
the midst of the situation.

I lost it.

I was sobbing so hard that I
was shaking the entire bed.

I woke my wife up and
she asked me, she's like,

what's wrong, what's wrong?

And all I could get out
was, someone was nice to me.

(ethereal music)

- These are not chess pieces

to be moved on a board
to your pleasure.

These are human beings.

And if you fail to
see their humanity,

then you will always
thwart your own goals

in changing hearts and minds.

(dramatic music)

Anger is such powerful fuel.

And so when you're
bereft of that,

you have to land somewhere else

and really embrace what I call
a concept of radical love,

starting with love for self

and calling on myself

to be the best human
being I can be.

- [Monica] Imagine
waking up one morning

with the whole world
suddenly knowing your name.

What kind of world do
you want that to be?

(acoustic guitar music)