The World's Most Dangerous Show with Joko Winterscheidt (2023–…): Season 1, Episode 4 - S1E4 - full transcript
What we eat
and where we get this food from,
has an unbelievable impact on the climate.
Industrial agriculture destroys the soil,
impacts nature,
poisons animal and humans,
produces huge amounts
of food for the trash can
and causes
immense greenhouse gas emissions.
The problem is very clear.
We only argue about the solutions.
Hardly any topic is so emotionally charged
like our eating habits.
What we eat polarizes.
And since we're thinking about
it privately,
it's so important,
that we have a conversation about it.
Hello and a very good evening.
Thus, I invited some
guests with very different points of view
to dinner for this episode.
Awkward, right at the start.
How is that done?
What's up? What's up, I am Loredana,
I'm an artist, musician, rapper,
and I'm happy to be here today.
I'm here today because I don't have
any idea about climate change.
But it's about time since
I have a daughter
and of course I want her and her children
to have a healthy life too.
We can have a drink first if you want.
I thought we'd have a little starter.
We have water, beer, wine?
-What will it be?
-I take a beer.
I am Luisa Neubauer. I am climate activist
at Fridays for Future.
Where were you when it was still possible
to prevent so much?
Amazon is not a corporation
I would associate with sustainability,
but rather with exploitation
and tax avoidance.
And if they ever face up to
the climate here,
then it has to be done well and right.
I'm glad that such a conversation happens
and that I am a part of it.
We're here, we're loud
because you're stealing our future.
We can take a picture like The Last Supper
later, if you want...
I am Thomas Dosch.
I trained as a farmer,
and was the chairman
of the Bioland association,
where I promoted organic farming.
Now, I work for a large
slaughterhouse business,
for Clemens Tönnies.
That's really fine, too.
You put a lot of effort into it.
Pickled gherkins are so awesome.
Only good with vodka.
I'm Marco Springmann,
Senior Scientist
in Sustainability and Public Health
at University of Oxford in the UK.
The food system is close to my heart
because it connects climate change
and personal health
in a very interesting way.
And I am Joko. I am here too.
-Cin-cin.
-Nice that you came.
Cin-cin.
-Let's see where the evening takes us.
-Yes.
What is actually the status
quo of our food system?
Can we continue to eat meat
without polluting the climate?
What impact does our eating behavior have?
Can animal husbandry
even help us to save the climate?
Or is the solution ultimately
in rethinking our place in the world?
"It's about profit, not food"
THE CRISIS ON OUR PLATES
Today I want to find out and understand,
what does diet have to do
with the climate?
What makes the debate so heated?
What can I still eat, if I still want
to have something tomorrow?
In other words,
what is actually the problem?
Maybe let's start
right at the beginning, food.
Global agriculture produces
up to a third of all greenhouse gases.
This means that if we know
we have to reduce greenhouse gases,
not a little, but to zero,
then we won't achieve this
if there aren't some really big changes
or revolutions in that area.
Yes.
You are specialized in
industrial livestock farming.
What's the damaging aspect
for us and for the climate?
The global food system
is the main driver of climate change
and is responsible for more
than 30% all greenhouse gases.
The majority of these emissions
are caused by the manufacturing
of animal products.
Three aspects are important here.
Firstly, methane emissions.
This is caused by manure decomposing,
but also because feed
ferments in cattle.
These are the famous burps of cows.
Second, laughing gas.
Nitrous oxide is caused by fertilizer.
Animal-produced foods
need a lot of fertilizer
because animal foods
require a lot of feed.
A cow needs 10 to 50 kilograms of feed,
to gain one kilogram of weight.
Third, there are CO2 emissions
caused by changes in land use.
For example, clearing forests
to grow soybeans.
These soybeans are used
entirely as animal feed.
If you take all three aspects together,
you will find that animal foods emit
much more than plant foods.
A cow, emits 100 times
as much as vegetable protein sources.
So that means animal foods are really
the big driver of climate change.
I've been to California
and I've seen
and looked at various things,
a farm that raises cattle, for example.
They only do cattle production.
If you go to their website,
you will see images of green meadows.
Just what you really want to see.
And I think you sometimes have no idea
what that means.
The scope of how many animals
have to be raised.
Crazy. Look at this.
Wherever you look, it's just cattle,
and some gates, and in-between
they are cooped up on some dried up soil.
There is not a single blade of grass
that they could eat.
The most perverse thing for me was
when I found out how much
such an animal has to eat.
Like Marco just said,
it takes up to 50 kilos of plant food
for a cow to put on just one kilo of meat.
We feed the cattle more than 30 times
as many calories
as we get out of it!
And for all this plant food,
huge areas have to be cleared, watered
and sprayed with pesticides.
What we feed animals, like soy,
we can eat that as well.
Processed differently,
it becomes our food.
You look at the cute faces of the cows,
and they look at you as if to say,
"Get me out of here."
-He is coming.
-A security person.
Shit, let's get going. He's coming fast.
I feel like throwing up,
it smells so disgusting.
120,000 cattle, and it stinks just as you
imagine it would.
-Does this impact how much meat you eat?
-No.
You're so numb to it.
There are a over 100,000 cows
that are just alive to be eaten.
And you think, "That's the way it is."
That's the worst of all,
that you see a place like that and think,
"Yeah, I've seen worse things."
And am I, or are we as human beings,
so alienated from all other beings,
that we don't even
understand what that means?
There are 100,000 cows here
that just exist
and then die
for our enjoyment.
I think, who the fuck
do we think we are,
that we treat other beings in this way?
The perversity is that we also know
that the world is starving?
But we feed more animals in the world than
we feed humans.
I can't get that into my head.
-It makes no sense.
-In Germany,
-there's more farm animals than people.
-That alone.
There is a way to change this system.
The problem is,
we have German regulatory law.
If I say that in our country,
I forbid this,
then I have not solved the problem
of people eating meat four times a week.
May I just say something?
This might be provocative.
Few companies in Germany's meat industry
have as bad of a reputation as Tönnies.
And we know
these corporations are what they are today
because people and/or animals
and/or planet are being exploited.
And now I would just ask,
Do we need companies like Tönnies?
Just a moment.
To put that in context for everyone,
Clemens Tönnies is
the largest pig slaughterer in Germany.
Or as Die Zeit once called him,
"the king of pigs."
70,0000 pigs are killed every day
and exported all over the world.
To China, Korea or the USA.
Was that a reason?
You were an organic farmer and...
I don't want to call him the enemy,
because it's not that bad,
but you probably did not just
say on the phone,
-"Sure, I'll join you."
-Of course not.
I worked with the Greens on the paper
about the future of meat.
I thought I'd talk to those
in the business.
And that was a long process,
making this decision,
joining them thinking
that my benefit working with them is
greater than working with the good guys.
I'm in the board meetings
and I'm the troublemaker
and I can say what I think.
Then something changes.
-That's how I experience it.
-But I wonder, we have so little time.
We need to change so badly.
Wouldn't it be the time to go
where really sustainable agriculture
is being practiced?
Small farmers, to places where
people really say, "Let's do it now,"
and then they need
the support to scale it up.
Since you're mention it,
I have such an example.
There is already another
way of raising cattle.
Another way is possible.
I was near San Francisco
with a large, special family
the Markegards.
In theory, I just wanted to learn
something about regenerative agriculture.
But in practice this became
rather a cowboy field trip.
Actually, Doniga Markegard
and I were busy
-driving the cows from one meadow
-Hawaii.
and one hill to the next.
The whole roaming around isn't just
a sport or a pastime,
it's the basis of the Markegard's
whole philosophy.
Have you ever heard of holistic grazing?
The principle is super easy.
The cows graze in one area for while,
then they go elsewhere
so that the soil has a chance to recover
and store CO2 again.
And doesn't end up looking as
it did on the other ranch.
The Markegards even have
an app that tells them
when which cow has to go where.
Where a cow eats
it does its business.
Doniga also works with a soil scientist.
She then showed me how
to take soil samples
and check whether the earth is healthy
and also functions as a CO2 store.
In that moment, it all made sense.
But just because cows are
grazing like that
doesn't mean they'll suddenly
stop belching methane.
Isn't it also expensive to
produce meat this way?
Is this really a new beginning?
The question is, what are the right tools?
And how can we implement them?
Politicians say
we need regional slaughterhouses.
How do you do that?
Small slaughterhouses go out of business.
There are no apprentice butchers.
I can't build any
regional slaughterhouses,
nobody can run them.
So in the time I'm looking at.
I have exactly the opposite approach,
because we have so little time,
I've been following this for 30 years
and very little has happened in 30 years,
so now with
the few years that I still have,
I rely on reforming and changing
existing structures.
Nothing that you said
is a solution for me.
I think we just have a problem
accepting that meat is unhealthy.
It happened to me recently.
I was driving around Zurich,
and my car is huge, really huge,
-and it stands out.
-She is honest.
There were people protesting
against climate change.
A lot of people rode their bikes.
-And of course, my car caught their eye.
-Those were my friends.
Everyone just looked at me.
But I think to myself,
"Dude, I just don't like it.
"It doesn't attract me."
I just want to get a second car
and say, "Fuck you."
That's not the nicest way to explain
to someone that it's not good.
I understand.
It's an interesting psychological effect
that people who meet an activist,
feel so frightened by it
that they think,
"Oh, now I'll do even more of it."
But can you understand that,
for example, an activist on the street,
that if they understand,
emissions must peak
within the next three years.
After that it has to go down.
And right now emissions are skyrocketing.
The effects won't happen in a 100 years.
They happen now, next year,
and it's going to get
worse and worse in our lifetime...
Can you understand that these people,
these young people, like me,
that they sometimes lack
a bit of patience,
to ask nicely again,
each individual person,
"Hey, would you maybe buy a smaller car?"
"Could you eat a little less meat?"
We have the facts,
-and we don't have time.
-Don't get me wrong.
I respect you for what you do.
-You're doing it for my future too.
-Exactly what I mean.
I am just saying...
You're doing it for my future
and my daughter's future.
We need people like you.
Maybe you misunderstand me.
I'm just saying I think it's the wrong
way you're going about it.
Yes. I see everywhere
that so many people
are seriously concerned.
It's not about that anymore...
I tell myself, too,
I want to do something.
-Yes.
-That's the thing.
It doesn't appeal to you.
You even become defiant.
-I think you're not alone in that.
-That's what I mean.
-That happens to many, but...
-You say,
"I should change too."
-Exactly. And I am willing, but...
-Exactly. And I think...
I am totally ready.
But you have to convince me.
Actually it's stupid to say that.
You have to be convinced to live healthy?
We were raised this way.
It's hard to change from one
day to the next.
-That requires...
-We need time and...
Do you know what I mean?
Meat is meat for me.
I'm saying I love meat.
What shall I do?
I admit, I get what Loredana says.
People simply love meat
and don't want to go without it.
I would like to introduce someone.
I met this guy called Pat.
Because Pat invented
something for guys like Loredana and me,
namely meat that just doesn't
need an animal anymore.
Pat is a former Stanford professor,
a cool super brain,
and thinks it's not about
not eating meat anymore,
it's about producing it differently.
So that I could get a better idea
of how he produces meat,
he took me to
his Silicon Valley lab.
This has zero percent
in common with a farm.
It's all high-tech.
Is that the future too?
-He is doing marketing.
-Of course.
I'm also receptive,
because I think it's great
that an entrepreneur says, "Hey, listen..."
He wants to sell you chicken nuggets.
I don't fucking care.
But it solves a host of problems.
So he says.
-And you say?
-No!
-No?
-Absolutely not.
You need to know, what are
the greenhouse gas emissions from this?
I hate this show.
There are things that try to recreate
that texture of meat.
They have so-called shearing machines
that puts the texture in there.
They need so much energy
that products like this
emit just as much greenhouse gases
as chicken.
That chicken they want to replace.
And for health,
you can play a lot of tricks with it.
First, there are many additives
that aren't healthy.
Things like that often have
a lot of saturated fat.
Yes, okay. It's also proven
that it's all genetically manipulated.
I had read that in advance.
And in Europe his products
aren't even allowed yet.
I think he makes so many points
that are simple and so good.
He's absolutely right.
Are we at the beginning of a development?
I don't want to say that
such meat substitutes are,
in general, always super bad, right?
Of course, within this food group,
there are better and worse examples.
You always have to remember
that these companies also want to sell.
That doesn't mean they're all bad.
Meat companies also want to sell.
But you should be critical of that
and not say, "A new product.
We must have it."
Like the new iPhone.
I really wonder...
I look at the time,
if we do things slowly, there's no point.
Then we go backwards.
It needs acceleration
in the way we think differently
about how people stop eating all the meat.
The faster way is
to make people an offer.
It can't go on like this.
What about the fact that
half of the food that is thrown away,
it doesn't even get used
in our food system?
And what if you said,
"Okay, wait a minute."
You start to scale it down radically
in order to create relief
in the food system.
Well, 18 million tons of food
are thrown away in Germany every year.
That's about a third of everything
we eat all year round.
And for the wasted food,
millions of hectares of fields are farmed
every year for nothing.
And this produces
as many greenhouse gases
as the entire Netherlands
emits in a year.
The emissions caused by transport
are not even in the calculation.
For example, an orange...
If it's not in season now,
it hangs somewhere overseas
for a year on a tree
that is watered,
which costs manpower and energy,
and is then sprayed with chemicals
so that the orange also looks
like an orange.
Then this orange is transported
halfway around the world
on a huge oil-powered
container ship to us.
This takes a while. And it's possible that
the orange shrivels or gets damaged.
Then it is sorted out
and ends up in the garbage
although it is still a good orange.
Incidentally, sorted
and well-preserved groceries
cannot be given away in Germany.
This is punishable,
unlike in many other European countries.
It's all pretty crazy.
And the big question, can't you somehow
stop this wastefulness in its tracks?
I met a guy called Raj Patel.
It's actually a huge topic on many levels
how much food is thrown away
and what we could do with it.
Raj is a filmmaker, professor and author.
His work is about approaches to
completely rethink the global system
of food production and distribution.
He says, "No matter what
we all do as consumers,
"it can't be enough."
-Come in.
-Thank you.
The way they describe it
in such an American way,
as if they were actually about to develop
a small Apollo machine.
That's a concept that's
widespread in Germany,
you have a direct customer.
So it's a very old concept.
Sure, you have to pay for it somehow.
In this case, a mix of private
individuals and the city of Oakland.
If that leads to a few people
eating for free,
I think that's great.
We just grow all the food on rooftops.
So of the total land surface,
the built-up area is 1%.
-No!
-What?
-It just doesn't fit the scale.
-Okay, I get it.
Raj doesn't even claim
that it's the solution to the crisis.
This involves a fundamental change
in the food industry.
In order to really understand
what Raj means by new options,
he packed me in the car
and we went to another farm.
I realized that the group not only thinks
about the system,
but also acts fundamentally differently.
MA DA DIL FARM
CALIFORNIA, USA
All land is planted and harvested
according to Indigenous tradition.
Before she picked the stinging nettles,
this is too extreme for me,
she asked it if it's
okay to pull off a leaf.
But insane, because you really realize
how important nature is to them.
How we think about nature,
we here at the table are doing
ourselves a favor to learn from those
who have relationship with nature.
And it is of course a question of
how do we protect nature from us?
It's clear that we need
a different concept
of how we as humans
live in nature, as part of nature.
That means we have to change
the people first.
-I agree.
-Do you see?
In the end,
we still have with this solution.
I think we need to get rid of the idea
that food is a private matter
and that food is non-political.
Because it's just neither.
I think we need
to start talking ourselves into it,
as gross as that sounds.
It's not, "That's my business."
Because what's on my plate
has a global impact.
And it means the world to others.
For living beings, and for the planet.
From what I know about you now,
I assume that we are pursuing
the same goals.
Also what you describe,
what frightens you.
I understand you.
It's about sustainable integration
of animal husbandry into agriculture.
That also means that we have
to kick politicians in the butt
so they ensure
a healthier and sustainable society.
Develop sensible national
dietary recommendations
and price food in such a way
that healthy and sustainable food
is cheaper and also available.
There are solutions for everything,
but we don't use them.
There are many approaches
that are so good.
But there are so few situations
when this approach is put into practice.
But isn't it great that we know
there are no easy solutions,
not just one simple way.
We would have to despair. We would say,
"We're giving up."
But it's a mosaic, obviously.
Now we've got the realization
that things can't go on like this.
I'm growing myself, and I'm in that
position myself where I say
I'm trying to be better.
I think I'm slowly making progress now.
And that's why it needs people
who start where they can.
People who come up with good concepts.
People who challenge politics like I do.
Or who use their reach.
Whether it's in film or in music
or on social media,
and increase the pressure together.
We don't have the luxury
of walking just one line
and then relying on it.
That would be silly.
We just can't rely on someone else
taking care of it.
I think the hurdle is
either thinking, "It's too late,"
"I can't do anything anyway"
or "It's way too much."
Those who want to continue as
before will be the ones who are happy.
I'm going to to dream.
About climate, about cars.
-Nice.
-That's good.
No meat, then a meat factory.
Thank you for taking the time.
Thanks for the invite.
My pleasure. Come again.
We will edit three good
minutes out of this.
Exactly.
I hope there is some pasta left.
I am still hungry.
IN THE NEXT EPISODE...
A story that at first glance seems
to be far away from us.
But I can promise you...
It's much closer than we think.
and where we get this food from,
has an unbelievable impact on the climate.
Industrial agriculture destroys the soil,
impacts nature,
poisons animal and humans,
produces huge amounts
of food for the trash can
and causes
immense greenhouse gas emissions.
The problem is very clear.
We only argue about the solutions.
Hardly any topic is so emotionally charged
like our eating habits.
What we eat polarizes.
And since we're thinking about
it privately,
it's so important,
that we have a conversation about it.
Hello and a very good evening.
Thus, I invited some
guests with very different points of view
to dinner for this episode.
Awkward, right at the start.
How is that done?
What's up? What's up, I am Loredana,
I'm an artist, musician, rapper,
and I'm happy to be here today.
I'm here today because I don't have
any idea about climate change.
But it's about time since
I have a daughter
and of course I want her and her children
to have a healthy life too.
We can have a drink first if you want.
I thought we'd have a little starter.
We have water, beer, wine?
-What will it be?
-I take a beer.
I am Luisa Neubauer. I am climate activist
at Fridays for Future.
Where were you when it was still possible
to prevent so much?
Amazon is not a corporation
I would associate with sustainability,
but rather with exploitation
and tax avoidance.
And if they ever face up to
the climate here,
then it has to be done well and right.
I'm glad that such a conversation happens
and that I am a part of it.
We're here, we're loud
because you're stealing our future.
We can take a picture like The Last Supper
later, if you want...
I am Thomas Dosch.
I trained as a farmer,
and was the chairman
of the Bioland association,
where I promoted organic farming.
Now, I work for a large
slaughterhouse business,
for Clemens Tönnies.
That's really fine, too.
You put a lot of effort into it.
Pickled gherkins are so awesome.
Only good with vodka.
I'm Marco Springmann,
Senior Scientist
in Sustainability and Public Health
at University of Oxford in the UK.
The food system is close to my heart
because it connects climate change
and personal health
in a very interesting way.
And I am Joko. I am here too.
-Cin-cin.
-Nice that you came.
Cin-cin.
-Let's see where the evening takes us.
-Yes.
What is actually the status
quo of our food system?
Can we continue to eat meat
without polluting the climate?
What impact does our eating behavior have?
Can animal husbandry
even help us to save the climate?
Or is the solution ultimately
in rethinking our place in the world?
"It's about profit, not food"
THE CRISIS ON OUR PLATES
Today I want to find out and understand,
what does diet have to do
with the climate?
What makes the debate so heated?
What can I still eat, if I still want
to have something tomorrow?
In other words,
what is actually the problem?
Maybe let's start
right at the beginning, food.
Global agriculture produces
up to a third of all greenhouse gases.
This means that if we know
we have to reduce greenhouse gases,
not a little, but to zero,
then we won't achieve this
if there aren't some really big changes
or revolutions in that area.
Yes.
You are specialized in
industrial livestock farming.
What's the damaging aspect
for us and for the climate?
The global food system
is the main driver of climate change
and is responsible for more
than 30% all greenhouse gases.
The majority of these emissions
are caused by the manufacturing
of animal products.
Three aspects are important here.
Firstly, methane emissions.
This is caused by manure decomposing,
but also because feed
ferments in cattle.
These are the famous burps of cows.
Second, laughing gas.
Nitrous oxide is caused by fertilizer.
Animal-produced foods
need a lot of fertilizer
because animal foods
require a lot of feed.
A cow needs 10 to 50 kilograms of feed,
to gain one kilogram of weight.
Third, there are CO2 emissions
caused by changes in land use.
For example, clearing forests
to grow soybeans.
These soybeans are used
entirely as animal feed.
If you take all three aspects together,
you will find that animal foods emit
much more than plant foods.
A cow, emits 100 times
as much as vegetable protein sources.
So that means animal foods are really
the big driver of climate change.
I've been to California
and I've seen
and looked at various things,
a farm that raises cattle, for example.
They only do cattle production.
If you go to their website,
you will see images of green meadows.
Just what you really want to see.
And I think you sometimes have no idea
what that means.
The scope of how many animals
have to be raised.
Crazy. Look at this.
Wherever you look, it's just cattle,
and some gates, and in-between
they are cooped up on some dried up soil.
There is not a single blade of grass
that they could eat.
The most perverse thing for me was
when I found out how much
such an animal has to eat.
Like Marco just said,
it takes up to 50 kilos of plant food
for a cow to put on just one kilo of meat.
We feed the cattle more than 30 times
as many calories
as we get out of it!
And for all this plant food,
huge areas have to be cleared, watered
and sprayed with pesticides.
What we feed animals, like soy,
we can eat that as well.
Processed differently,
it becomes our food.
You look at the cute faces of the cows,
and they look at you as if to say,
"Get me out of here."
-He is coming.
-A security person.
Shit, let's get going. He's coming fast.
I feel like throwing up,
it smells so disgusting.
120,000 cattle, and it stinks just as you
imagine it would.
-Does this impact how much meat you eat?
-No.
You're so numb to it.
There are a over 100,000 cows
that are just alive to be eaten.
And you think, "That's the way it is."
That's the worst of all,
that you see a place like that and think,
"Yeah, I've seen worse things."
And am I, or are we as human beings,
so alienated from all other beings,
that we don't even
understand what that means?
There are 100,000 cows here
that just exist
and then die
for our enjoyment.
I think, who the fuck
do we think we are,
that we treat other beings in this way?
The perversity is that we also know
that the world is starving?
But we feed more animals in the world than
we feed humans.
I can't get that into my head.
-It makes no sense.
-In Germany,
-there's more farm animals than people.
-That alone.
There is a way to change this system.
The problem is,
we have German regulatory law.
If I say that in our country,
I forbid this,
then I have not solved the problem
of people eating meat four times a week.
May I just say something?
This might be provocative.
Few companies in Germany's meat industry
have as bad of a reputation as Tönnies.
And we know
these corporations are what they are today
because people and/or animals
and/or planet are being exploited.
And now I would just ask,
Do we need companies like Tönnies?
Just a moment.
To put that in context for everyone,
Clemens Tönnies is
the largest pig slaughterer in Germany.
Or as Die Zeit once called him,
"the king of pigs."
70,0000 pigs are killed every day
and exported all over the world.
To China, Korea or the USA.
Was that a reason?
You were an organic farmer and...
I don't want to call him the enemy,
because it's not that bad,
but you probably did not just
say on the phone,
-"Sure, I'll join you."
-Of course not.
I worked with the Greens on the paper
about the future of meat.
I thought I'd talk to those
in the business.
And that was a long process,
making this decision,
joining them thinking
that my benefit working with them is
greater than working with the good guys.
I'm in the board meetings
and I'm the troublemaker
and I can say what I think.
Then something changes.
-That's how I experience it.
-But I wonder, we have so little time.
We need to change so badly.
Wouldn't it be the time to go
where really sustainable agriculture
is being practiced?
Small farmers, to places where
people really say, "Let's do it now,"
and then they need
the support to scale it up.
Since you're mention it,
I have such an example.
There is already another
way of raising cattle.
Another way is possible.
I was near San Francisco
with a large, special family
the Markegards.
In theory, I just wanted to learn
something about regenerative agriculture.
But in practice this became
rather a cowboy field trip.
Actually, Doniga Markegard
and I were busy
-driving the cows from one meadow
-Hawaii.
and one hill to the next.
The whole roaming around isn't just
a sport or a pastime,
it's the basis of the Markegard's
whole philosophy.
Have you ever heard of holistic grazing?
The principle is super easy.
The cows graze in one area for while,
then they go elsewhere
so that the soil has a chance to recover
and store CO2 again.
And doesn't end up looking as
it did on the other ranch.
The Markegards even have
an app that tells them
when which cow has to go where.
Where a cow eats
it does its business.
Doniga also works with a soil scientist.
She then showed me how
to take soil samples
and check whether the earth is healthy
and also functions as a CO2 store.
In that moment, it all made sense.
But just because cows are
grazing like that
doesn't mean they'll suddenly
stop belching methane.
Isn't it also expensive to
produce meat this way?
Is this really a new beginning?
The question is, what are the right tools?
And how can we implement them?
Politicians say
we need regional slaughterhouses.
How do you do that?
Small slaughterhouses go out of business.
There are no apprentice butchers.
I can't build any
regional slaughterhouses,
nobody can run them.
So in the time I'm looking at.
I have exactly the opposite approach,
because we have so little time,
I've been following this for 30 years
and very little has happened in 30 years,
so now with
the few years that I still have,
I rely on reforming and changing
existing structures.
Nothing that you said
is a solution for me.
I think we just have a problem
accepting that meat is unhealthy.
It happened to me recently.
I was driving around Zurich,
and my car is huge, really huge,
-and it stands out.
-She is honest.
There were people protesting
against climate change.
A lot of people rode their bikes.
-And of course, my car caught their eye.
-Those were my friends.
Everyone just looked at me.
But I think to myself,
"Dude, I just don't like it.
"It doesn't attract me."
I just want to get a second car
and say, "Fuck you."
That's not the nicest way to explain
to someone that it's not good.
I understand.
It's an interesting psychological effect
that people who meet an activist,
feel so frightened by it
that they think,
"Oh, now I'll do even more of it."
But can you understand that,
for example, an activist on the street,
that if they understand,
emissions must peak
within the next three years.
After that it has to go down.
And right now emissions are skyrocketing.
The effects won't happen in a 100 years.
They happen now, next year,
and it's going to get
worse and worse in our lifetime...
Can you understand that these people,
these young people, like me,
that they sometimes lack
a bit of patience,
to ask nicely again,
each individual person,
"Hey, would you maybe buy a smaller car?"
"Could you eat a little less meat?"
We have the facts,
-and we don't have time.
-Don't get me wrong.
I respect you for what you do.
-You're doing it for my future too.
-Exactly what I mean.
I am just saying...
You're doing it for my future
and my daughter's future.
We need people like you.
Maybe you misunderstand me.
I'm just saying I think it's the wrong
way you're going about it.
Yes. I see everywhere
that so many people
are seriously concerned.
It's not about that anymore...
I tell myself, too,
I want to do something.
-Yes.
-That's the thing.
It doesn't appeal to you.
You even become defiant.
-I think you're not alone in that.
-That's what I mean.
-That happens to many, but...
-You say,
"I should change too."
-Exactly. And I am willing, but...
-Exactly. And I think...
I am totally ready.
But you have to convince me.
Actually it's stupid to say that.
You have to be convinced to live healthy?
We were raised this way.
It's hard to change from one
day to the next.
-That requires...
-We need time and...
Do you know what I mean?
Meat is meat for me.
I'm saying I love meat.
What shall I do?
I admit, I get what Loredana says.
People simply love meat
and don't want to go without it.
I would like to introduce someone.
I met this guy called Pat.
Because Pat invented
something for guys like Loredana and me,
namely meat that just doesn't
need an animal anymore.
Pat is a former Stanford professor,
a cool super brain,
and thinks it's not about
not eating meat anymore,
it's about producing it differently.
So that I could get a better idea
of how he produces meat,
he took me to
his Silicon Valley lab.
This has zero percent
in common with a farm.
It's all high-tech.
Is that the future too?
-He is doing marketing.
-Of course.
I'm also receptive,
because I think it's great
that an entrepreneur says, "Hey, listen..."
He wants to sell you chicken nuggets.
I don't fucking care.
But it solves a host of problems.
So he says.
-And you say?
-No!
-No?
-Absolutely not.
You need to know, what are
the greenhouse gas emissions from this?
I hate this show.
There are things that try to recreate
that texture of meat.
They have so-called shearing machines
that puts the texture in there.
They need so much energy
that products like this
emit just as much greenhouse gases
as chicken.
That chicken they want to replace.
And for health,
you can play a lot of tricks with it.
First, there are many additives
that aren't healthy.
Things like that often have
a lot of saturated fat.
Yes, okay. It's also proven
that it's all genetically manipulated.
I had read that in advance.
And in Europe his products
aren't even allowed yet.
I think he makes so many points
that are simple and so good.
He's absolutely right.
Are we at the beginning of a development?
I don't want to say that
such meat substitutes are,
in general, always super bad, right?
Of course, within this food group,
there are better and worse examples.
You always have to remember
that these companies also want to sell.
That doesn't mean they're all bad.
Meat companies also want to sell.
But you should be critical of that
and not say, "A new product.
We must have it."
Like the new iPhone.
I really wonder...
I look at the time,
if we do things slowly, there's no point.
Then we go backwards.
It needs acceleration
in the way we think differently
about how people stop eating all the meat.
The faster way is
to make people an offer.
It can't go on like this.
What about the fact that
half of the food that is thrown away,
it doesn't even get used
in our food system?
And what if you said,
"Okay, wait a minute."
You start to scale it down radically
in order to create relief
in the food system.
Well, 18 million tons of food
are thrown away in Germany every year.
That's about a third of everything
we eat all year round.
And for the wasted food,
millions of hectares of fields are farmed
every year for nothing.
And this produces
as many greenhouse gases
as the entire Netherlands
emits in a year.
The emissions caused by transport
are not even in the calculation.
For example, an orange...
If it's not in season now,
it hangs somewhere overseas
for a year on a tree
that is watered,
which costs manpower and energy,
and is then sprayed with chemicals
so that the orange also looks
like an orange.
Then this orange is transported
halfway around the world
on a huge oil-powered
container ship to us.
This takes a while. And it's possible that
the orange shrivels or gets damaged.
Then it is sorted out
and ends up in the garbage
although it is still a good orange.
Incidentally, sorted
and well-preserved groceries
cannot be given away in Germany.
This is punishable,
unlike in many other European countries.
It's all pretty crazy.
And the big question, can't you somehow
stop this wastefulness in its tracks?
I met a guy called Raj Patel.
It's actually a huge topic on many levels
how much food is thrown away
and what we could do with it.
Raj is a filmmaker, professor and author.
His work is about approaches to
completely rethink the global system
of food production and distribution.
He says, "No matter what
we all do as consumers,
"it can't be enough."
-Come in.
-Thank you.
The way they describe it
in such an American way,
as if they were actually about to develop
a small Apollo machine.
That's a concept that's
widespread in Germany,
you have a direct customer.
So it's a very old concept.
Sure, you have to pay for it somehow.
In this case, a mix of private
individuals and the city of Oakland.
If that leads to a few people
eating for free,
I think that's great.
We just grow all the food on rooftops.
So of the total land surface,
the built-up area is 1%.
-No!
-What?
-It just doesn't fit the scale.
-Okay, I get it.
Raj doesn't even claim
that it's the solution to the crisis.
This involves a fundamental change
in the food industry.
In order to really understand
what Raj means by new options,
he packed me in the car
and we went to another farm.
I realized that the group not only thinks
about the system,
but also acts fundamentally differently.
MA DA DIL FARM
CALIFORNIA, USA
All land is planted and harvested
according to Indigenous tradition.
Before she picked the stinging nettles,
this is too extreme for me,
she asked it if it's
okay to pull off a leaf.
But insane, because you really realize
how important nature is to them.
How we think about nature,
we here at the table are doing
ourselves a favor to learn from those
who have relationship with nature.
And it is of course a question of
how do we protect nature from us?
It's clear that we need
a different concept
of how we as humans
live in nature, as part of nature.
That means we have to change
the people first.
-I agree.
-Do you see?
In the end,
we still have with this solution.
I think we need to get rid of the idea
that food is a private matter
and that food is non-political.
Because it's just neither.
I think we need
to start talking ourselves into it,
as gross as that sounds.
It's not, "That's my business."
Because what's on my plate
has a global impact.
And it means the world to others.
For living beings, and for the planet.
From what I know about you now,
I assume that we are pursuing
the same goals.
Also what you describe,
what frightens you.
I understand you.
It's about sustainable integration
of animal husbandry into agriculture.
That also means that we have
to kick politicians in the butt
so they ensure
a healthier and sustainable society.
Develop sensible national
dietary recommendations
and price food in such a way
that healthy and sustainable food
is cheaper and also available.
There are solutions for everything,
but we don't use them.
There are many approaches
that are so good.
But there are so few situations
when this approach is put into practice.
But isn't it great that we know
there are no easy solutions,
not just one simple way.
We would have to despair. We would say,
"We're giving up."
But it's a mosaic, obviously.
Now we've got the realization
that things can't go on like this.
I'm growing myself, and I'm in that
position myself where I say
I'm trying to be better.
I think I'm slowly making progress now.
And that's why it needs people
who start where they can.
People who come up with good concepts.
People who challenge politics like I do.
Or who use their reach.
Whether it's in film or in music
or on social media,
and increase the pressure together.
We don't have the luxury
of walking just one line
and then relying on it.
That would be silly.
We just can't rely on someone else
taking care of it.
I think the hurdle is
either thinking, "It's too late,"
"I can't do anything anyway"
or "It's way too much."
Those who want to continue as
before will be the ones who are happy.
I'm going to to dream.
About climate, about cars.
-Nice.
-That's good.
No meat, then a meat factory.
Thank you for taking the time.
Thanks for the invite.
My pleasure. Come again.
We will edit three good
minutes out of this.
Exactly.
I hope there is some pasta left.
I am still hungry.
IN THE NEXT EPISODE...
A story that at first glance seems
to be far away from us.
But I can promise you...
It's much closer than we think.