The Interrogator (2019–…): Season 1, Episode 6 - Like Mother Like Daughter - full transcript

This was the
"I don't remember murder,"

And I'm absolutely bamboozled
by this.

He needed her gone.

Can't have two women
living under one roof.

She figured that
he'd been cheating.

He thinks the same thing back.

Right after that is
when she was killed.

A young mother was killed

While her 8-year-old son
is sleeping in the next room.

And her own mother

Had been murdered
when she was 2.



We not only have to
deal with the present,

We have to recreate the past.

My gosh, is there something more

Than just a weird
heebie-jeebies coincidence here?

Houston, texas,
america's fourth largest city.

I served as a homicide detective

With houston's finest
for over 23 years.

I've investigated
over 400 murders

And solved 90%
with a confession.

Once I have a suspect
in the room,

I don't quit until I get
justice for the victims.

I am homicide detective
fil waters.

When you think you have heard

Or seen everything
as a homicide detective,



There's always something that
comes along that's more tragic.

Can't even begin to explain
the horrific atmosphere that

That scene set in my head.

Jennifer and I grew up

Right down the street
from each other.

Our grandparents both lived
in the same neighborhood.

Jennifer was very much
a tomboy growing up,

And she stood up for me a lot.

She had a big heart
and a big mouth.

She didn't hold back
from what she was thinking,

Which was a blessing
and a curse.

May 19, 2012,

My partner brian harris and I
are working weekend duty,

And we get a call
we've got a homicide scene

In the kingwood area
of houston, texas.

The nature of the information
on the call is very sparse.

We know that we have
a dead white female.

We know that there is
a small child that's there.

We ride up together,
and it's an apartment complex.

It's a very nice neighborhood.

Patrol officers are there.

We work in partners.

Brian and I, we're going to
split the investigation

Into a scene side
and the witness side.

In this particular scene,

Fil was going to interview
the witnesses,

And I would handle documenting
the physical evidence.

The apartment is
on the second story.

As you walk in the front door,
it's a clean house.

Things are put away.

You go through the living room
into a child's bedroom,

And what's in
that child's bedroom?

Drawings -- happy drawings.

And there are pictures
of a young boy

With his mother and smiles,
but where's the kid?

We are able to confirm
that the child is safe.

A neighbor had come over
during all the commotion

And had taken the child.

And then you go into
the master bedroom,

And in between the master bed
and the bathroom...

There she is...

Partially covered,
laying down on the ground.

28-year-old jennifer mckinley,
single mom, had been strangled.

She was beaten black and blue.

The main cause of death
was strangulation,

But jennifer had
multiple abrasions.

She had subdural hematoma
to her scalp.

And it was indicative
from the scrape on her foot

And scrapes on her arm
and the side of her face

That she had fought back.

There at the scene,

One of the first people
I talk to is ben,

The 8-year-old son
of the deceased.

Of course, this brings about

An immediate concern for me
since I'm a father.

He was so innocent

In his discussion
with what he was doing.

Ben tells me that he heard
some kind of a noise.

He's not even sure
what the noise was...

But it was something
that woke him up.

So he goes out into
the living room to investigate.

Ben doesn't see anything,
doesn't hear anything.

Thankfully, he has not witnessed
anything having to do

With his mother
laying on the floor dead.

That was a godsend for me.

Whatever took place
happened while ben was asleep.

At the end of our discussion,

He spoke in a low tone,

Almost like he was letting me in
on a secret,

And he said,

"you know, I came outside
and I saw my mom's car,

But she's not here.
I don't see her."

He noticed that the police
were there.

He knew the ambulance was there,

But he had no conception
of why we were there.

Erick erminger
was jennifer's boyfriend.

There was a relationship
with erick and with ben.

Erick is not the father,

But he had been in
a relationship with jennifer

And had been around ben
for three or four years.

He seemed to be
really good with ben.

They did a lot of
gaming together

And played a lot of games.

Erick was very involved
in his boy scouts, too.

He was really good for ben.

The morning of jennifer's death,

Erick is the one
who discovered the body.

He was much too distraught
to talk.

Erick's mother, yvonne,
makes the 911 call.

She lives about
two minutes away.

Yvonne shows up
at the apartment,

And she does find erick very
distraught and she finds ben.

She was very clear
that the relationship

Between erick and jennifer
was a good one.

Yvonne treated jennifer
like a daughter-in-law.

Within an hour
of making that scene,

Family members had heard about
what had happened to jennifer.

My sister-in-law called me.

She was like, "jessica,
jennifer is dead."

I thought she was lying.

It wasn't true
because I had just seen her.

We had just, you know,
been together.

It was shock.

It happened the night before.

They had found her
that morning, Saturday morning.

My very first question
was, "where's ben?"

And I did find out that,
you know,

He was with his dad, john.

Jennifer met john at church
through mutual friends.

The next thing I know,
she was pregnant,

And then
they were getting married.

Ben was born in July of 2003.

Jennifer loved ben
more than anything.

He was her world.

She was a stay-at-home mom.

John did provide for his family,

But it was more
out of obligation.

And he had a tendency
to be controlling of jennifer.

When john found somebody else,
he kicked jennifer out,

And not long after that,
the new girl moved in.

Ben was staying with his mom
whether john liked it or not.

Once they were divorced,

She said that john was
verbally abusive

And that he had put his hands
on her a few times.

That's one of those things that
she didn't tell anybody about.

At the scene, when john
showed up to get ben...

...I noted an attitude
of ambivalence.

He wasn't too happy

About the relationship
that jennifer had with erick,

But the minute he got there,
he was ready to go.

I don't even recall him
even asking me

What happened to jennifer.

He wasn't concerned about that.

It was more of,

"I'm ready to get
the hell out of here."

This is one of these moments
your spider sense is going off.

May 19, 2012.

28-year-old jennifer mckinley
was found strangled to death,

Laying on her bedroom floor.

Jennifer is killed
while her 8-year-old son, ben,

Is sleeping in the next room.

Her ex-husband, john mullins,
showed up at the scene

And took custody of ben.

We're hearing all kinds
of information from,

"it was a healthy breakup,"

To, "there might have been
some abuse here."

Not the most
sterling guy on the planet.

John forsaked her
for somebody else.

And then another man
in jennifer's life

Showed up at our scene.

There's a guy
in the apartment complex.

Definitely got to be
sweet on jennifer.

He shares with fil about

The victim's current boyfriend,
erick erminger,

He believes
he's not good for her,

That he's abusive,

That she wanted
to get away from him,

So he's laying out the motive

For the victim's boyfriend
being a potential killer.

Or is he deflecting attention
away from him?

Well, the nosy neighbor
comes to us as mike.

He wants to put himself as being
the white knight in this.

He wants to be the guy
that's going to come in,

And he's going to defend
jennifer's honor

By castigating
what he thought about erick.

So he wasn't a big fan of erick,
it was clear,

But he was a huge fan
of jennifer's.

For him, I think
it went beyond friendship.

She was nice to him,

Never romantically interested
in him.

Well, how do we know that?

Because of another friend,

A female
in the apartment complex.

What does she tell fil
at this time?

"that guy who just told you
about her boyfriend?

I don't know about him, either.

He might be a little obsessive
about my friend."

So now do we have three people

That could potentially
be involved?

Once we have cleared the scene,

I take jennifer's phone.

I find text messages
the night of jennifer's death

Between mike and jennifer.

Mike is kind of
fawning over jennifer,

Telling her that
she's a very pretty girl,

That erick doesn't deserve her,

And ends it with,
"you know what I mean?"

What does he mean?

Does he mean that,
"I'm the guy for you,

Even though I'm married
and have my own children"?

We're not sure what the depth is

About his affection
for jennifer,

But he's definitely sending
a different message to jennifer

Than jennifer
is returning to him.

It did seem like there
was evidence of a new suitor,

A new romantic relationship,

And that could always be
a potential suspect.

You don't know how that person
is perceiving jennifer.

You don't know if they're
making the relationship

To be bigger than it is,
and they could have become angry

If she's not willing
to leave erick.

We check out mike,

And his story
was confirmed by his wife.

He was with her.

He's quickly
eliminated from this,

But we're building this mosaic
as a result of mike's claim

That erick had been abusive
to jennifer.

I had to ferret out and make
sure that either there was abuse

Or there was not abuse.

My next step is to start
contacting friends

And family members of jennifer
to see if we have any evidence.

Jennifer's family is very
supportive of the relationship

Between erick and jennifer.

Erick's filled a void
in jennifer's life.

He's filled a void
in ben's life.

The family contrasts
their relationship

To the relationship
she had with john,

Who dumped her
and destroyed her life.

Erick was just
so different from john

In every way.

Erick was very tall
and masculine and with a beard,

And he was a man.

And john was...Not.

When she got in
a relationship with erick,

She was happy.

We were happy for her.

They seemed to have
a really good relationship.

Within hours of
the investigation starting

And progressing,

I get a phone call
from charles wright,

And he identifies himself to me
as jennifer's grandfather.

I start to talk to him
about what he knows

About the relationship
with jennifer, erick, and john,

And I'm starting to see
a pattern now

That the relationship that john
and jennifer had -- not good.

Then I was stunned

When mr. Wright made
the comment

That he'd been
through this before.

When jennifer was 2,

Jennifer's own mother
had been murdered.

Jennifer was inside the home.

And they find jennifer
walking around the scene.

Mr. Wright and his wife raised
jennifer as their own daughter.

With jennifer's death
a quarter of a century later,

Mr. Wright is reliving
the same set of circumstances.

Now he's lost two daughters
to an act of violence.

That's something that I can't
imagine ever having to endure.

I don't know how many years
that would take off of a person.

I'm thinking to myself,
"my gosh, is there a connection

Between what happened
to jennifer's mother

And jennifer
25-something years later,

And is jennifer's son in danger
now of an unknown threat?"

We have 28-year-old
jennifer mckinley

Strangled to death
in her bedroom

While her son, ben,
slept in the next room.

Within 24 hours
of our investigation,

We find that jennifer's mother,
22-year-old tammy wright,

Was murdered in 1985.

Is there something more than

Just a weird heebie-jeebies
coincidence here,

Which I do not believe
in coincidences,

Or is this something
we need to further explore?

We're talking about
a triple homicide.

It was a big deal then.
It's a big deal now.

And what is my first question --
"is the case closed?

Did they find a suspect?"

In 1985, delbert bryan
is one of our victims

In that particular homicide,
and his boss makes a call to hpd

Because he's concerned

That delbert hasn't shown up
for work.

What police officers find
is a horrific scene.

Delbert is dead.

Two women are dead,
shot to death.

One of those women
is tammy right,

And they find tammy's daughter,
jennifer,

In the midst
of these dead bodies.

Jennifer, as a 2-year-old,

Was in imminent danger
when this occurred.

After tammy was killed,

Jennifer came to live
with my grandparents.

When I talked to mr. Right,

He explained to me
that the relationship

Between his daughter

And her husband,
jennifer's father, was not good.

It was an abusive relationship.
They had split up.

Jennifer's father had gone
to the apartment

To talk to tammy.

Got in an argument.

And he had yelled
through the apartment door

That he was gonna kill her.

And he ends up being arrested
for domestic violence.

Jennifer did not
like her father,

And she let everybody know.

She would not use his last name.

But tammy's husband
was in jail at the time,

So obviously, he didn't do it.

But the question remains,

"did he put somebody else
up to do it?"

As we peel back the onion
on people's lives,

Eventually,
you peel it back far enough,

You're gonna start to cry.

After jennifer's death,

My grandfather
talked to cold case,

And they had said
they were looking at it,

Possibly add something, some dna
they were going to send off.

There was forensic evidence

That could be submitted
for analysis

That was not available in 1985.

When I went in
and discussed that case

With the cold-case sergeant,

We determined
that evidence was a hairbrush.

That hairbrush was submitted
for dna analysis.

A profile resulted from it,
and it was entered into codis.

But nothing resulted
from that further investigation.

To this day,
that case does remain open.

No suspect
has ever been identified.

No killer has ever been caught.

As horrible as
the set of circumstances were

That looked like
they were mirrored,

There was no connection
to tammy wright's murder

And jennifer's death.

It's really hard to say

What the lasting effects
could be

From having such trauma
at such a young age,

And then growing up
without a maternal figure

To kind of guide you.

Friends reported that jennifer
had low self-esteem

And she was afraid to be alone.

Based on how john
treated jennifer --

She's completely rejected
for another woman --

John mullins, the ex-husband,
was a suspect in the case.

With john,

We were able to verify
where he was and who he was with

And eliminated him
fairly quickly

From the ranks of the suspects.

Just as important
to eliminate suspects

As it is to find
the right person.

In the course
of our investigation,

We want to send people back out

To do a canvass
of the apartment complex

Because when we do
the initial canvass,

People are at work,
they're not there.

We want to go back
and knock on doors

And see if there's anybody

That may have heard something
in the night.

We may be developing
some new information.

We got to not only put together
our victim's life,

We got to put together

What are the last moments
before this murder.

And the coworker mentions,
"yeah, we're drinking,

And erminger
was pretty hammered,

But hammered to the point that
at least he has enough sense

To call his old lady,
jennifer for a ride."

It's late.

She's got to to get a babysitter
to watch little ben.

The information that
we received from that neighbor

Is that jennifer not only
had gone to go pick up erick

And left ben with him,

But she had returned,
picked ben up,

And presumably had brought erick
back to the apartment

Around 10:30, 11:00.

She's fuming.

She figured
that he'd been cheating.

He thinks the same thing back.

Erminger might have been
the last one to see jennifer

Before she was killed.

There's only two people
in that bedroom,

And one of them's dead.

So while I don't have
any eyewitnesses to the murder,

One and one still equals two.

The day after 28-year-old
jennifer mckinley

Had been murdered,

We found that she went
to pick up a boyfriend,

Erick erminger, at a bar.

Erick was much too distraught
to talk at the scene.

Erick claimed that he just found
her dead body the next morning.

But nobody was there
to actually see the event.

That's all circumstantial.

Circumstantial cases
can present problems for a jury

To convict someone
beyond a reasonable doubt.

A district attorney
would prefer

A straight-out confession.

"I strangled her."

So now it was important
that I talk to erick.

What did he know

About the night
that jennifer was murdered?

We start to talk about
his activities the night before.

How many beers did you drink?

And, of course, he starts off
with the always present answer

For any drunk,
"I had two beers."

So I asked him,
are you sure that's how many?"

Then finally,
he gets to the number nine.

He's clear that he had
at least nine beers,

So now my thought is,

"he's making some admissions
to me, which is good,

And what is the purpose
of the admission?

Is he setting up
an excuse for later?"

It's important to establish
a timeline.

So he's going to leave
his vehicle at the bar,

And he calls jennifer
to come pick him up.

Now, he knows that jennifer's
got ben at home.

She's going to have to
do something with him.

He's now starting this
"I don't remember" stuff.

So at that point,

I'm going to try cognitive
interviewing techniques,

And this is simply where I want
to put him in a frame of mind

Where he is relaxed

So he can remember
what he can recall

And try to go back
to the beginning of the night.

We're talking about

The discussion between jennifer
and erick in the car,

And what I am noticing

Is that as he's getting closer
to the apartment,

Now all of a sudden,
his memory is starting to fade.

And when we get
to the apartment...

...It is almost as though
he has now walked into a fog,

And suddenly,
he can't remember anything

Beyond walking through
the threshold of the front door.

While I'm watching fil
do the interview,

This guy is licking his lips.

He's shifting in his chair,
making facial grooming.

Now, none of that in itself
means he's lying,

But what I can tell you
is based on our experience,

He's doing some things
with his body

That tend to be associated
with a lie.

Given what I believe
to be erick's intellect,

I think this became
some sort of weird

Erick erminger game thing

Where we were
in this competition,

And as long as he holds out
or he's deceptive or whatever,

Then I guess in his mind,
maybe he wins.

I'm like, "guy, really?"

I need to put on a whole new set
of frickin' hip boots

Because the crap in here
is getting really deep.

Jennifer mckinley,
single mom, had been strangled.

Her boyfriend, erick erminger,
who had found her dead,

Now is claiming
that he has no memory

Of what happened
after they got home.

Be smart enough
to all of a sudden

Explain everything that went on,
and then black out

And allude to what's called
alcoholic amnesia,

That when he drinks,
he can't remember.

Is this guy pleading insanity?

Clearly, erick was manipulative,
holding back.

It's important that I establish
that relationship with him,

And in order to do that, and I
do this with all my interviews,

Is that I want to share
a little bit of myself.

And what we have in common
is that we're both fathers.

So I talk about my son.

He talks about his son.

We're looking wide-eyed
at each other,

And we're fathers talking.

Then I want to start

Getting into the relationship
between he and jennifer.

So we started talking about,

"how did you guys argue
when it got bad?

What was the nature
of those arguments?"

And he starts complaining,

Which was exactly
what I wanted him to do.

I wanted him to start telling me
about what sets him off.

She picks him. She pushes him.

And he's now setting up his
excuse for strangling jennifer.

Without hesitation, talks about
physical contact, yes.

"yeah.
I'd push her away from me."

I ask him to relax in his chair,
close his eyes.

As long as erick
keeps talking to me,

I'm going to keep
talking to him.

Patience is a virtue,

Especially in
the interview room.

Erick's at home,
and he's passed out,

Gone to sleep, whatever.

Detective waters had searched
jennifer's cellphone

And found text messages.

The text messages
painted the picture of a woman

Starting to suspect that erick
may have been cheating.

And jennifer is getting
so upset with him.

One of the most ominous messages
is the very last message,

Where she says she's going to
wake him up and confront him.

She intimates that

If she does that,
she's going to regret it.

Erick erminger
is very deceptive.

He doesn't
answer questions directly.

He doesn't even refer
to jennifer by name.

Erick's deflection in this is

He's going to claim
alcoholic amnesia.

This is something
that he's calculated,

So I've got to press erick
to get him again

As close to the truth
as I can possibly get him.

There comes a point where I just
tell him straight out,

"look, you're in the room.

You've strangled her.
You've done it with your hands.

Come on."

And he has now said
that, "I did it."

No expression of remorse --
ever.

When you strangle someone,

That is the most personal way

To literally squeeze the life
out of somebody.

And a strangulation
takes about two minutes.

Count to 120.

It's about the average time
it takes

To squeeze the life
of a grown person.

She's fighting.

She's hitting
so hard on that bed

That her ankle gets cut.

That's really personal.

We get who it is,

Where it happened,
how it happened,

And now we need
the why did it happen.

At that moment in time
in that interview room,

I've got him as close to
the truth as I can possibly get.

He's just not going to go
any further than where he went.

Without the confession,

This would have been
a circumstantial case,

So the confession that
detective waters was able to get

From erick erminger
in that interrogation room

Was crucial
to prosecuting this case.

The circumstances of him
being one of two adults

That are in the apartment
when they go to bed admittedly

And how she's beaten,
his description of the events,

And her injuries,
it really left no other suspect.

He walked in,
we were set to pick a jury,

And he asked the court
to plead guilty to the judge.

The judge ultimately gave him

40 years in the texas
department of corrections.

I call it the
"I don't remember" murder

Since this is the only case
of 23 years

Where a claim
of alcoholic amnesia

Was used as the primary
foundation for the denial.

And he stuck to it.

I would tell her I loved her.

This picture is
the reminder of the family

How we got together
no matter what,

And christmas was a time
that we all spent together.

And no matter
what the year brought

And how busy we were
during the year

And didn't see each other,

We got together,
and, you know, smiled.

Jennifer was definitely
one-of-a-kind.

She was such a great friend
and a great mother.

She brought so much laughter.

What I always strive for
in every case,

Find the right person
who did the wrong thing,

Bring about a measure of justice

So that they might find
some peace.