What Is Democracy? (2018) - full transcript

Silvia: It's the mythological
figure,

half goat, half horse.

Astra: The woman by the goat,
she's sawing something.

- Yes, I think she's sawing
the social body.

The saw is the sign
of division.

- It's a good metaphor,
I think,

for our problems today.

The social body being
sawed apart.

- Absolutely.

- For me, this project began
with the question;

"What is democracy?"



And I quickly realized
it's not something

that's ever actualized,

but always something
that is in motion,

a kind of ideal
we're reaching towards.

But in practice
everywhere you look,

democracy is in trouble.

Progress can go into reverse,

and terrible things
have happened

in the name of democracy.

- Yes, it's been so abused,

and so misapplied, you know,

compared to its original
meaning,

which means the power
of the people,

the government of the people.



But so many have fought
for the realization

of a true democracy,

that in a way it's important

not to abandon the word.

- Right, but we also need
to think hard

about what that word
even means.

- Yes.
- Mhmm.

- Exactly.

Astra: In my mind democracy
does this remarkable thing

by inviting all of us
to come together

and ask the Socratic question;

How should we live?

And yet the most prominent,
ancient philosophers

were profoundly sceptical

of our ability to rule
ourselves, right?

Woman: The fundamental
question I think,

motivating the whole
of ancient philosophy,

is the question of happiness.

What is it that makes a life
worth living, okay?

A good life.

In Plato and Aristotle,
the ground on which the answer

to this question is built
is a city.

A good life is one guaranteed
by a good city.

A bad life is one people lead
in a bad city.

Now what makes a good city
good,

and this is something that both
Plato and Aristotle will say,

is justice.

A good city is a just city.

But even before they tried
to define what justice is,

I think they will both hold
that justice is good

because it ensures the unity
of the city.

For Plato, the basic factors

which endanger the unit
of a city are wealth,

and its counterpart, poverty.

Plato says in "The Republic,"
in Book Eight,

that rich people
want to become richer.

This is the desire
that motivates them.

So in becoming richer,
they will take from others,

they will put the others
in a situation of debt,

and it will make the others
increasingly poorer.

So this will break
the city into two cities,

we'll have the city of the
rich, and the city of the poor.

And one part of the city
will stand against

the other part of the city.

And this will initiate
civil war.

What poor people will do
eventually,

they will follow any demagogue

that will promise them

to overthrow the rich.

And this, for Plato, will
eventually and inevitably

lead to tyranny.

He says that, you know,
the passage is from democracy

to tyranny because of that.

This is why, in "The Republic",

he wants the rulers
to be absolutely indigent,

having no property whatsoever,

because the rulers
will rule the city

not because of ambition,
or love of money,

or love of honours,

but because the city
has brought them up.

So, they will have a moral
and political obligation

towards the city.

So you see,
this might be something

that would be relevant
for us today,

because we live...

in a shattered,

dismembered society,

and this society
has been dismembered

because of extreme
economical inequality.

And what we're faced with

is the need to re-member

this dismembered society.

- Ten dollar t-shirts!

- "Women for Trump" t-shirt,
ten dollars.

I've got hats too.

Donald Trump: This election
will decide

whether we are ruled by
a corrupt political class,

or whether we are ruled
by the people.

We're going to be ruled
by the people, folks.

Crowd: Yeah!

- Trump was probably the legal
hand grenade

that we could've thrown-that
we've thrown into the system.

People voted for Trump
for different reasons.

The same people who voted
for Obama in the Rust Belt,

voted for Trump.

Believe it, that's how it is.

The Democratic Party
left the poor, blue-collar,

working man behind.

You can't just forget
about poor white people,

you have to look out for them.

Trump, like in Detroit,

when he stood in front of the
Ford Corporation and said,

if you take these jobs
to Mexico,

I'm gonna put a tariff on it.

That appealed.

- We're Americans,
and Donald Trump said,

I'm gonna put Americans first,
you know.

People have different opinions
of immigration laws.

If we don't have a border,
we don't have a nation.

If we don't have strong borders
and it affects our economy,

Americans do suffer.

If America is better,

then we can have more
immigrants come in,

and we can-you know, they can
make their lives better.

It's not that we wanna keep
everyone out,

and that we don't want them
to have opportunity,

it's that we need to be able
to be successful ourselves.

Astra: But when I hear people
chanting, "build a wall!"

I don't hear a lot
of welcoming to--

- Illegal immigrants.
Astra: Mhmm.

So democracy,
what does it mean to you?

- When I think about something
the word that inspires me

is not democracy,
it's, you know, the phrase,

"The American Dream".
And that ability to climb.

Astra: So Plato was writing
at a time

that was very different
from ours,

but it's, his challenge still
holds.

Cornel: Yeah, it's not that
different, actually.

I mean, you tell me when we...
- Yeah. Keep going. Yeah.

- Yeah. No.

The fact that the founding
texts

of the Western philosophical
tradition,

"Plato's Republic"

provides the most powerful
indictment

of not just democratic
practices,

but the possibility
of democracy.

And he argues that every
democratic experiment,

every experiment in which
those Sly Stone called,

"everyday people",
attempt to govern themselves,

will result in tyranny,

because there is too much
unruly passion,

and pervasive ignorance
among the demos,

among everyday people.

See, I come from a people,
a black people,

who have suffered in forms
of being terrorized,

traumatized and stigmatized

in the name of majority rule.

So democracy cannot be
simply majority rule.

If it was majority rule,

black folk could easily have
remained enslaved to Jim Crow,

it was not democratic
processes.

Abraham Lincoln's Emancipation
Proclamation

was dictatorial,
it was not democratic.

You see, Brown v. Board
in 1954,

for school integration,

Came from a counter
majoritarian institution

called a Supreme Court,

it didn't come
from the majority.

If the majority of Americans
were to vote in 1954

for school integration,

it never would've passed.

What's fascinating
about my own tradition,

Martin Luther King Jr.,

and Fannie Lou Hamer,
and the others,

the radical democrats coming
from the chocolate side of town

coming from beneath
American democracy,

coming from the enslaved,
and the Jim Crow

and the Jane Crow,

is that we still held on
to notions of democracy,

but they were democratic
critiques of the truncated

democratic practices
in America.

So we're still wrestling
with Plato's challenge.

Plato's challenge
will never go away,

will never go away,

because the fascist
possibilities

of any democratic experiment
are always there,

I don't care which part of
the world you're talking about.

Astra: So is this where
the magic happens?

- This where the magic happens.

Woman: There's one of our
members down there now.

Say hello, children.
Children: Hi!

- Hello, hello.
- That's Representative Michaux,

from Durham County,
and he sits--

show 'em where you sit,
Representative Michaux.

- Over here.

- That's our actual
House Member,

he's the longest serving
House Member, too.

He's been here 40 years.

Anyone have a question
you wanna ask?

It's a great opportunity
to ask a member something.

Boy: What do you do
in this building?

- I sit right there, and every
time a vote comes up, I vote.

I help write laws,
I help make laws, uh,

to how you operate,
and how your school operates,

how the State operates.

And anything that happens,

you can blame it on them,
not me.

This was the original
Legislative Black Caucus,

this was the three of us,

the first three
in the 20th Century.

That's Barack
in his younger days.

And that's crazy Jesse and me.

And this is the only thing
I've got with Martin and me.

A lot of folks will say
the Klan now dresses up

in suits and vests,

which is basically true.

I look at,
I look for instance at a...

I look at the Republican Caucus
in this body.

It's all white.

I mean, they don't have
a black face

in their Republican Caucus.

During slavery,

you had perfect classism there.

You had black folks
who were slaves,

then you had the overseers
who were white,

blue collar folks,

and then you had plantation
owners.

The thing there was
the plantation owners

kept the fear among
the overseers

that black folks
were gonna take over,

so the overseers did their
worst

on the black folks

to keep them from coming in
and taking their jobs,

and the white folks
sittin' up at the top,

enjoying it all,

without any discomfort at all.

That's-that's-I mean,

the analogy to me is there.

You've got rich white folks
sittin' up there,

middle class folks sittin'
here,

you've got-let me back up.

I don't mean to be racist
in any way.

You got rich folks
sittin' up there,

you got middle class folks
sittin' there,

and you got the rest of us
sittin' down here.

And those in the middle
are told by those at the top,

you better watch those
at the bottom,

'cause they're comin'
after you,

and we sittin' up there
makin' all the money.

Martin had always told me,
he said,

Mickey, you know,
we talk about economics,

we talk about civil rights,
we talk about it, he said,

but you know,
none of this can be done

unless we have somebody
in the seats of power

where the laws are made.

He said, politics
is the way of life.

We need economic power,
he said,

more desperately than any other
group in American society,

but in order to get that,

we've got to become involved
politically.

He said, "You'd do a good job."

I said, "Martin, you're crazy."

When I first got elected,
we were coming out

of that period of Jim Crow,

when you had literacy laws
involved,

you had poll taxes involved,

you had everything involved

to keep black folks from voting.

When I came into office things
were beginning to improve,

and one of the things I took on
was voting rights.

And then we started opening up
same day registration,

out of precinct voting,
early voting,

16, 17-year-old registration,

all of these things,

here again,
politics played a role in it,

and-and my name was on most
of all of that stuff

that was passed during that.

Now it's being taken away.

- This was the first election

without the full protections
of the Voting Rights Act.

From the White House,
to the Republican Legislature,

they keep telling the lie
about voter fraud,

and not the truth
about voter suppression.

Since 2010,
we've had 22 States

that have passed voter
suppression laws,

where you've had
the highest turnout

of black and brown people.

And on election day,

there were 868 fewer
polling places

in States with histories
of discrimination.

And there were 158 less
voting sites

in the black communities
in North Carolina.

When people will cheat
like that,

standing down is not an option!

- Yes!

William: But you also must
hear me,

this is not just
about a president.

We miss it if we think it is.
Man: That's right!

- This is about an entire web
of money,

and influence,

and white hegemony

that has been working to tie up
the American democracy

from the very inception
of this country.

And they've been working
not from DC down,

but from school boards,
and county commissioners,

and state legislatures up.

That is why they fear
a crowd like this.

Even as the divide between
the rich and the poor

is the widest in our nation's
history,

our Electorate is growing
more diverse every year.

And wealthy oligarchs

know that they cannot hold on
to power

in truly democratic elections.

So what we are witnessing
is an all-out assault,

foreign and domestic,

on the very heart
of our democracy.

Woman: When I was in Charlotte
during the Charlotte uprising,

we were in the street,

I had tear gas all over
my arms, all over my neck.

And as we were trying
to get safe,

and trying to slow down,

a car just halts,
and a guy,

a white man, gets out
of his car with a pistol.

Um, and he's just pointing it

at all of the protestors like,

at first he was silent
and it was eerie,

because you don't know
what he's gonna do.

He ended up getting back
into the car,

but that moment, and feeling
like, that type of violence,

for asking for the police
to stop killing black people,

was a really-it was a game
changer for me.

And my mindset that -
me asking for my human rights

is offensive to a group
of people in this country.

And it's so offensive that
they would take my life.

And that me asking
for my rights means

that I get to be brutalized
by the police, um...

it means that I have
to take medic training

as a 19-year-old
college student,

I have to be able to protect
myself against the state,

and I just left my mom's house
two years ago, right?

Like, these are real things
that are happening, um...

and like, it's a lot.

- What is your struggle compared

to the previous generation?
Like how do you--

In this world where we flatter
ourselves and tell ourselves

stories about the Civil Rights
Movement,

and pat ourselves on the back?

- Yeah. I think my struggle
is a little bit different

than it was in the 60's
and the 50's.

Because you're dealing with
like the covert racism,

and you're dealing with like,

uh, institutional racism,
and mass incarceration.

So, we've still got the 60's
issues, they're still there,

but now the state
and the capitalists

have built all of these
structures to keep us

from getting in,
and they've locked the door,

fifty times over.

And we thought that getting
the vote was the key.

We thought that...

going to school
with these people,

we thought that that was key,

and we keep trying to figure
out what these keys are,

and it's not opening the door.

It's not opening the door
to liberation.

Black folks still aren't free,
and we keep trying,

and we keep trying,

so like, what's next, right?

Do we keep asking?
Do we keep voting?

Do we take what's ours?
Like, what do we do?

Democracy, it doesn't feel
like this in my head.

It doesn't feel like being
scared for my life,

it doesn't feel like...

knowing I'm gonna be in debt
in two years.

It doesn't feel like
my family being incarcerated

for having a little bit
of marijuana.

It doesn't-that's not what
democracy feels like to me.

Effimia: This is the agora.

Agora means, "a get together."

This particular agora,
which is the Athenian Agora,

actually denotes the beginning
of democracy.

This structure is a landmark
of the Athenian democracy.

Cleisthenes, an aristocrat,
in 508 B.C.,

made major reforms,
or introduced major reforms

in the political life of Athens,

and a lot of historians,
and everybody actually,

think that this is the birth
moment of democracy.

So that's why it's so
important, okay?

Would you like to hear
what he did?

- Yes.
- Oh, okay.

That's very complicated,

but I adore this moment
of the Greek,

of Athenian life, okay?

Now, what happens is
that before that,

just before Cleisthenes
introduced his reforms,

there was a riot,
I love this idea,

there was a riot
of the citizens, okay?

You have a riot
because it was a period

of the Athenian life
where people still

had centres of power
around wealthy aristocrats.

Instead of that,

Cleisthenes tried to create
another notion,

the notion of belonging
to your polis,

and not to the aristocratic
family of your neighbourhood,
okay?

And what he did is very,
very interesting.

Let's suppose
that this is Athens,

and that this zone here
represents the coast,

this zone here represents
the urban place,

and this is the countryside,
okay.

So, the idea of Cleisthenes
was to break down

and abolish completely

all the local centres of power,

which were created around
a powerful aristocrat,

and the clientele around him,
okay?

So, you have to redesign
the political space.

He takes these zones,
and he mixes up everybody

to create a new collectivity.

It's completely arbitrary,

but the new political space

is now based on this
new division.

And you have people who've
never seen each other before,

and they have to work together
for a year.

This is a new community, okay,

it's a community of citizens,
not a community of;

oh, Astra is my friend,
and I love her very much,

and hm, hm, hm,
you are my friend too,

and we will have our little
interests,

and I'll support her,
and she will support me.

No, you have to support
somebody whom

you've never seen in your life,

and work together
to support your polis.

To be an Athenian means
that you are over and above

the individuals, okay?
You are...

Oh! I'll have to find
something more elegant,

an elegant way to say it.

Because this is so important,

because that brings us
to how we should change

the way we think,
and this is...

this is how I think
things can progress

in all sort of areas
in our lives.

We need to change
the way we think,

and we need to start
thinking that we belong

to other communities,
other collectivities,

than the modern way of living
brought us to believe.

Walter: I worked at
a continence store,

the boss man was not that nice.

He made me work 15 hours.

I would go in at 6:00 o'clock
in the morning

and get out at 10... at night.

Working like 15 hours,

and not getting paid
for overtime.

I was working, I was making
like 6-5 dollars an hour.

Astra: Let's begin
with democracy,

because I personally
even wrestled a bit

with making this
the theme of the film.

Like, but I couldn't...
I kept returning to democracy.

- That's great.
- Right, so--

- Great, great, so you're
almost a metaphor

for our problem.
- Right.

- Which is, on the one hand,

democracy is this totally fluid

and stretchable notion today,

it can be appropriated
by anybody for anything,

it has been appropriated
for terrible purposes,

for Imperialism,
for colonial conquest,

for um...

smashing unions,

for undoing affirmative action,

all kinds of things happen
in the name of democracy

that you might object to,
and that I might object to.

And it has many possible forms,

but then we think okay,
so just let's get away from it,

let's have something else,

let's go to a different form

for understanding justice,

or for centering our own
projects of freedom,

equality, emancipation,

just living, inclusion,
and so forth. Sustainability.

And we keep coming back to it.

And I think we keep coming back
to it for a simple reason,

it captures the idea of people
governing themselves,

rather than being governed
by something else.

And the etymology
of the term "demos kratia"

simply gives you that
in a nutshell,

it's "the people rule",
and the alternative is,

we are ruled by a part,

we are ruled by an aristocracy,

we are ruled by a tyrant,

we are ruled by an oligarchy,

we are ruled by technocracy,

we're ruled by something
other than ourselves.

And what we see today I think,
is a strong temptation

to just turn the whole business
of governing

over to technocrats,
not just to corporations,

not just to the wealthy,

but to, essentially,
human versions of algorithms.

Or algorithms themselves,

as opposed to the interested,

the passionate, the political,

let alone the popular.

And the idea is, you know,

there are just a few
who really know,

put them together in a room,
and let them run the world.

- Yeah.
- I find that terrifying.

I think it is terrifying

because it imagines that it has
no political interests,

but in fact it's totally shaped
by a world that is now

itself largely governed
by finance.

And so it has tremendous
political interests.

- And it's also not democratic,
because it's not self-rule,

it's the ruled by profit
and loss,

by external metrics.
- Absolutely.

It's not choosing
and deliberating

about who we want to be,

what kind of people
we want to be,

what we want to become,

how we want to conduct
ourselves,

it's simply living according
to what you've just described,

these very narrow norms
of what is to be done,

which is what enhances value,
what depreciates value.

What brand might succeed,
what brand will fail you?

It's a very narrow universe
of thought and of conduct,

and so you're absolutely right,

it doesn't have self-governance
in it,

either in the individual,
or in the collective sense.

Silvia: In the 13th Century,

in Siena and surrounding areas,

a banking system emerged.

So what this town represents

is really the beginning,

it's the first elements
of a capitalist society.

In 1287, there was a revolt
in Siena

that gave power to an oligarchy
of merchants and bankers.

This is the room
where they used to meet.

And then around 1330,

they commissioned the painting
of this room.

And what we are looking at is

the legally of good government

and bad government, you know.

Good government on
the central wall,

and on the right side

we have the affects of good
government.

And on the left side,

we have the affects
of bad governments.

This painting is supposed
to celebrate the government,

and to, you know, legitimize it

as a just government,

as a government that's
capable of guaranteeing

the prosperity of the town,

and it's a government
that takes into account

the interests of all.
- Mhmm.

- That, of course,
is the claim.

- So it's propaganda
for the oligarchs.

- Yeah. That's the image
of themselves.

The central character is
a very patriarchal figure.

He represents the common good,

and the good government
sits among virtues,

peace, we have fortitude,

we have justice.

Temperance must know the limit,
right?

So, for example, you're not
supposed to flaunt your wealth,

because you can provoke, here,
envy.

And envy generates discord.

And here's tyranny, right?

Tyranny is the concentration
of power.

Tyranny is privilege,
is abuse, is injustice.

Astra: Even in this painting
from so long ago,

can we see modern day tyranny?

Silvia: Yes, there is
a connection.

It's the greed, the, you know,

absence of an awareness,

and acceptance of limits, yeah.

It's the beginning of a long,
historical process

where the rule of money
has extended itself

to every corner of the world.

Astra: I have been trying to
distil this into one question,

and the question is, who rules?

- Who rules? Well...

if we see democracy as
the rule of the people,

certainly it's not the rule
of the people.

We have deified the market.

As if it is some entity
unto itself.

We have given up power
basically,

as societies, as citizens.

We have undermined our own
democracy by saying,

we give the power to who?

To the markets.

When I was elected in 2009,

I had to deal with a crisis

where we had a deficit of 16%,

a debt that had doubled.

So I had a choice:
either we go bankrupt,

or we decide to ask for loans
from our partners

in the European Union,
and the IMF.

We have very important
challenges ahead of us,

amongst them of course
are the decisions

we are making in Greece.

We are committed to make
the major changes.

Markets were pounding us,

and we were pressured
by our lenders

to make massive cuts.

George: Standing up to the
markets would've been great,

but in a small country
like Greece, I mean,

we don't have that power
to be able to withstand

these huge um... forces.

Zoe: The narrative has been

that Greeks have been living
beyond their means,

that they have overspended
public money,

and now it's time to pay
the bill.

This is a lie.

The creditors pretend
to lend money to Greece,

but this money never comes
to the Greek state.

Actually, 92% of the money

supposedly given to Greece

is going back to the creditors.

They even like to call this
a bailout program,

pretending that they save
the Greek society,

while they're really saving
themselves and their banks.

- Yes, mama.

Effinia: Can you hear me well?
- Yeah.

- One thing we've been wanting
to talk to people about is

how the economic crisis

is affecting you generation?

Woman: I'm 23,

so from 2009,

where the global economic
crisis started, I was 16.

For me, all the most important
stuff was the occupation

of the Squares in 2011.

RBD was a public assembly,

and it was for me
a great experiment

of an entire democracy.

People from all kinds
of different backgrounds

came and they discussed,
and they self-organized

in very impressive numbers.

Everyone thought that
it was time for change.

And Syriza was a political
result of that.

Aspasia: We thought that
the Party

had owed its loyalty
to the people,

and would be an instrument
to voice

the interests of the people,

and we thought that after
all these years of fighting,

that we achieved that,
in a way.

And oh, we were,
oh, we were so naive.

Zoe: The referendum
was a historical moment

for the Greek people.

The people were given a say
for their lives,

for their dignity,

for their future,
for their destiny.

Zoe: The people were far
more courageous

than their leadership,

and they by a 62% vote
said no

to the blackmails addressed
to them.

This was a sovereign,
democratic decision

that nobody had the right
to violate.

Zoe: And yet, eight days later,

the country's creditors
and the country's government,

reached a so-called agreement

to implement the very measures

that had been rejected
by the people.

What happened was a betrayal.

It's very important
for societies to realize

that it's time to fight against
this kind of new tyranny.

Which is attacking the people
and democracy

through economic
and banking means.

- It's been a struggle to try
to like, live here in Denmark,

and also know how many things
are going on back home,

and how much people
are suffering,

and if I would be needed there,
to help.

All of my classmates
are leaving.

No one,
almost no one is staying.

We need to like,
have a chance at this life.

It's very difficult for me
to leave Greece,

and that's, I think,

a big like ethical dilemma
for me.

That... if not us, then who
will change?

I think...

Are you crying?

Effinia: Yes, of course
I'm crying.

I hope politically
that one day

I will be able to come,
to come back,

that the political situation
will... will better,

and the European situation
will better,

so I will be able to come back
and help,

help the place that
I know so much about,

and I love so much about,
and I have pained so much for.

Silvia: These are the mens
of power in the town.

Now all these men
are men of money,

are men of property.

They are the one who inhabit
those beautiful houses

with the big towers.

You tried to build your tower
as tall as possible,

as a manifestation of your
prosperity and your power.

In a sense the tower
was really an expression--

- The phallus?
- Yeah, phallic,

a phallic symbol of power,
exactly.

This is a moment in which
power,

it's very physically
accessible.

It's still embodied
in local structures,

that are very accessible,
you know, to the citizen.

And in that sense can,

it's possible to imagine
to overthrow it.

Those exploiters,
or those men of power,

are within the reach.

They are within the wall
of the city.

You can think of overthrowing,

you can organize yourself
to overthrow them.

This is something that
has changed immensely.

Today, we don't even see money,

the physicality of money.

It's beginning to disappear.

You know, when people
had the bag of coins,

they carried the bag of coin.

But today money's running
around the globe

at the speed of light.

Those seeds of capitalism,
that we see here,

has now fully blossomed.

So it has become much more
difficult, in fact,

to think of a democratization

that starts from the local
level

because the global today
is so much in mesh

into the local.

- Yeah. I love this idea too
of power is less visible today.

If we can't identify it,
- Yes.

- we also have a harder time
resisting it.

- Exactly. Power appears
as an abstract system.

Astra: I wanna ask you
about Rousseau.

He's this pivotal philosopher.

In a way, he's the first modern
defender of democracy.

Wendy: Yes.

For Rousseau,
the meaning of democracy,

and the meaning of freedom

is self-governance,

self-legislation.

It's not what often is called
now negative freedom,

liberty, or freedom
from the state,

and freedom from each other.

It's freedom with one another

to set the terms of our
existence.

And Rousseau's a pretty
lone voice in the history

of modern democratic theory,

in pushing that point,

about freedom being collective
self-determination,

as opposed to the right
to be let alone.

And yet Rousseau understands
also,

that to culture democracy,
to nourish democracy,

you have to have a people
oriented

toward the desire to govern
themselves.

And that moderns,

especially because of what
he calls commercial society,

or commerce, what we would
call capitalism,

are much more inclined to be
kind of self-interested,

and self-involved.

So you actually have
to produce,

through education,
through culture,

through what he calls
civic religion,

the orientation toward
governing ourselves in common.

And the willingness to be
governed in common,

to submit to what the common
determines

as what we should do,

what we should--
how we should live,

what our laws should be.

So he-he runs up against
the problem

that the thing he thinks
will make us free,

which is governing ourselves
in common,

is also not something that's
just automatically there

in our natures.

It has to be cultivated,
it has to be cultured,

it has to be brought about
by the very laws,

and by the very form

that he's trying to get us
to respect and to honour,

but that won't be produced
out of human beings

who don't necessarily
incline in that direction.

So that's what we call
Rousseau's Paradox.

How do you make democracy out
of an undemocratic people?

That's our problem today.

Astra: Do you live
in a democracy?

- Yes, absolutely.

- Do you live in a democracy?

- Democracy, is that-doesn't
that mean that they tell you

what to do? Like, democ--
- No.

- Do you live in a democracy?
- Yes.

- Do you trust the government?
- No.

- Do you vote?
- No!

- No, I do not.
And I'll never vote, ever.

- If there's one issue
you think is undermining

our democracy, what is it?
It can be anything.

- Great question.

- One issue...

immigration.

- I feel like we have a very...

like for instance,

if your parents make a certain
amount of money,

you're not going to get help
from the government.

But if you're below
a certain amount,

and like,
you're a different race,

you're gonna get help.

Versus, if you're a person

that's lived here your whole
life, and you're white,

and I'm not trying to be
racist, 'cause I'm not,

you're gonna... if you are
a different nationality,

you're going to get help.

Versus somebody
who has grown up here,

who's lived here,
who has, you know,

worked since they were 16,

and your parents make above

the FASFA amount of money.

- $150,000.
- We're not gonna get money.

And I think that
that's bull crap.

Angela: Well, I haven't been
to Miami in a long time,

let me say that.
Woman: Welcome!

- The first time I came -

well, I won't talk about
the first time I came to Miami.

I was running from the FBI
the first time I came.

- We have to abolish rather
than fix the system.

The system cannot be fixed!

- I always like to go back
to W.E.B. Du Bois,

and his notion of abolition.

Because so many of the problems
we are confronting

are a direct consequence
of the fact

that slavery was never fully
abolished!

Du Bois argued that
the abolition of slavery

would not simply be the
dismantling of the institution,

but rather the creation
of new conditions,

new institutions,

a new democracy.

Because what he argued
was that the democracy

that we were all familiar with

could not be the same
if former slaves

began to participate
on a basis of equality.

It would have to be a very
different democracy,

not the democracy
of the founding white fathers.

And so, that challenge,

that was the challenge
of the end of the 19th Century.

It was the challenge
of the 20th Century.

And it remains the challenge
of the 21st Century.

Man: Come on in, come on in.

Yeah! How are you?

Oh, good to see you.
So good to see you!

- Good to see you,
how are you doing?

- Very well, very well.

Oh, anywhere you wanna sit.
Anywhere, yeah, yeah.

This is your house.

All right, all right.

Man: Is that good?
- How's it goin'?

- I believe in real democracy,

but I believe in a democracy
of the people,

not in what we call
bourgeois democracy,

or the democracy
of the ruling class,

because they definitely had
democracy amongst themselves,

even though we're not allowed
to participate in that.

We're given the illusion that
we can participate in it,

but we're not allowed
to participate in it.

And that's why
we are sometimes confused

about what democracy is,
because we're looking...

we're on the outside
looking in.

- What is democracy, yes,

but that question to me
is like...

it defeats the purpose
of asking it,

because we know what it is.

We know what they claim
for it to be.

Black people have been
the experiment of democracy.

We have been at the expense
of this so-called democracy.

So what is democracy good
for us?

It's never been good for us.

There's never been a democracy

um, you know, to me,
in my mind.

So if that's the case
it's kinda like,

fuck it, it's not even,
you know,

why are we having
this conversation?

- If we are going to struggle
to make it better world,

a more democratic world,
we all first must agree

that all lives
has equal values.

Once we all agree on that,

I think we can definitely
stretch

the concept of democracy.

To me, I just see another
period,

historical moment
that we're in,

where we can either leap
together forward,

or we can go back.

- I think it's really important
when talking about democracy,

especially in Miami, being a
global city full of immigrants,

who gets to be like,
a citizen, right?

And who gets this global
citizenship,

and who is able to be mobile,

and what's able to be mobile?

Zygmunt Bauman said that like,
mobility and late modernity

is a lot more important
than capital,

and I think we can see it
in a lot of cases, right.

My family came from Nicaragua

with the funding
of the Contra terrorists,

and the overthrowing
of the revolutionary

Sandinista government.

They came over here,
they got papers right,

which was a concession
from Ronald Reagan.

But a lot of the other
Central Americans,

El Salvador, Guatemala,
they didn't get the papers.

They get deported,
they don't get citizenship,

they don't get to participate.

And it's really important
to me like,

who gets to count,
who gets counted.

- We're living in a place
where there are people

from Central America,
from all over the Caribbean,

from South America, you know,

there's all of these different
people here.

And I don't see any difference
between a Jamaican being like,

well, what do I need to learn
about the Bahamians?

A person from Nicaragua
would be like,

what the fuck do I need to know
about black Americans,

or like, a black American
can be like,

what the fuck do I need to know
about Cubans, right?

We're closing ourselves off

to everyone else
from the get-go,

and if we don't stop doing that,

we're not gonna learn how
to pick pieces of the puzzle up

to put together something
brand new.

- There's some shards of glass,
and he went to like,

three different hospitals
until he came in here.

- Why'd he have to go to three
different hospitals?

- I don't know.

Tanya: There's a lot
of violence here in Miami.

In fact we have so much
violence that the US Army

does come here for
pre-deployment training

as their medics, prior to going
off to Iraq or Afghanistan.

Rishi: For many years now
in fact,

they see more trauma here

than they do on their
deployment in a war zone.

And that's I think
become normalized.

No one seems to blink
their eyes at what sounds

like a ridiculous fact.

- Yes. And that is abnormal.

I really believe trauma
is a political disease.

We have issues like,

why is homicide the number one
cause of death

for young African American men?

Astra: Is it?
- It is.

- The problem is the despair

that comes from poverty,

and the feeling like,
I got nothin' to lose.

- If you have no way
to support yourself,

let alone your family,

children that might be
dependent on you for survival,

if you have no way
to support yourself,

you're gonna do anything
you can.

- It's not just the poverty
here, it's the disparity.

It's the extent of extreme
richness,

right next to extreme poverty.

- I jump on my bicycle every
day on my way to work,

and I'm going across
the Venetian Causeway,

which is where you see
multi-million dollar homes,

it's beautiful, you know,
palm trees,

everything that you can
stereotypically think

about for Miami,
and South Beach, and whatnot.

Ten minutes later you're
in an area of the city

like Overtown,
which is extremely poor,

and it's that extreme
inequality,

which has been linked directly
to homicide rates,

cardiovascular disease for both
rich and poor people.

When you have vast inequality,
it's worse for everyone.

- I remember when I was
in elementary school,

the, you know, the janitor was
an adult white man, right?

But at the time,
on the salary of a janitor,

an adult white man
could have a family,

could have a vacation,
could have a car.

But now on the salary
of a janitor,

you hear so many times that
they can't afford any of that,

and they, and they're,
you know,

one inch away from
homelessness.

So something's changed
in society, because when...

you know, I remember his name,
Mr. Novak.

Mr. Novak was respected,
and could earn enough

being the janitor,
working one job,

to have a family,
and have a life.

- Yeah, that's a huge shift
in our time.

- And that's changed.
- Yes.

- Well, that shift from
the economy, I think,

is not accidental.
- No.

- I mean, I think
that's a result of

the idea of democracy,
or a democratic government

being co-opted by corporations,
and not the people,

whether they're disenfranchised
from poverty,

or lack of education,
or lack of access.

So I think it is all tied
together that these state

and federal government policies
that are pushed

by special interest groups,
or corporations,

or people who have a lot
of money,

I think it does trickle down
and affect the people's lives.

- Here's where my Commie
friends are goin' off the rail.

So, so capitalism works
to keep things functioning

until it gets out of balance.

And I will agree, right now,
it's out of balance.

The money is concentrating
too much at the very high end.

- But would you say
that's deliberate?

- It's outta control.

I don't think there is
a Dr. Evil somewhere

scheming to do it,
I'm actually very moderate.

And so to both sides
I'll say right,

so for, to Tanya I'll say well,
I understand,

you know, you drive through
this place

where is full of abject poverty,

but I don't expect that
you are gonna keep coming

to work every day,
and then, and then,

what do you do with that
at the extreme, right?

Just hand over all your money
into a pool,

and let everybody who's not
working share it?

You know,
that's not gonna work,

and at the other extreme,
we have the people who say,

deny healthcare to everybody
if they can't pay for it.

You know, I'm not supporting
this with my taxes.

Okay, fine, well, I'd like you
to take up arms,

and stand outside the hospital,
and when they come up

And they can't pay to come in,

you go ahead and just
shoot them, right?

So, and they're not
gonna do that either.

So there's these two extremes
and the proper answer's

somewhere in the middle,
and I don't know where it is.

Astra: If you could cure the
social body, what would you do?

- Spend more on education,
and less on guns and prisons.

- Education.
- Yeah, hands down.

- From the very beginning.
- Public education.

Astra: The idea of democracy
is that the people rule,

and so that's one thing I wanna
talk to you guys about is,

how do you feel?

Do you feel like you have
a say in your school?

Is that a place where you feel

like you have any say
over how things go?

- I don't think we have a say

because it's run by people
bigger than us,

and bigger than the school.
Like, it's a whole county,

so I don't think
we really have a say.

- Whatever rules they establish
we've just gotta follow,

so like, there's nothing else

we could like say to defend
ourselves,

we just gotta do whatever
they say.

Astra: Is democracy something
you talk about in school,

and that you've learned
about it in history classes,

and stuff?
- Yeah.

- It's like, about government,

like different branches,
and like that.

They don't ask us oh, so how
do you feel about our school?

How do you... like, no.

Astra: Does anybody ever think
about school being another way?

Like, could you imagine
a school where the kids,

where the students actually had
some sort of seat at the table,

and were allowed to have a vote
or voice in things?

- People inside a school
should have something to say,

but it's really not
gonna matter,

'cause like I said, it's
the other people ruling it.

Even one-like, my voice is not
really gonna change nothin'.

Astra: How about beyond
your school?

When you look at your parents,

do you feel like they have
a kind of say

in the way things are going in
the world, or in the society,

like more of a say than y'all?

- I don't think people,
like up high in power,

really wanna hear like,
a black mom

from, that's poor,
and like in a ghetto,

I don't think nobody really
wanna hear what she gotta say.

- It's like survival
of the fittest,

'cause if she speaks out
and say whatever she gotta say,

they might just find somebody
else better for the job.

That probably not gonna talk,
what they gotta say,

'cause there's plenty of people

that probably want the same job
she have, so.

It's better just to go out,
do whatever you have to do,

and get it over with.

Jacques: If you could change
something in the school,

what would it be?

- Well, we have good school
lunch,

but some days,
they just not really on it.

Like, the food don't have
no flavour,

or somethin' like that, but
if you come to the principal,

he's like, food is food,

children in Africa
don't get food,

so you should just be grateful.

- I know that one day
they're gonna get tired

at a point of us keep on asking
them can they warm up our food,

that they just gonna say,

how 'bout we just make some
better lunch, or somethin'.

Astra: What if the students
got together and said,

we're gonna all work together
to try to get better lunch,

or warm lunch, that seems
a really basic demand to me,

it should at least be warm.

- Like, the "get together" part
it's-I mean,

you have a right to do that,
but...

they take, if you try to go
against them,

they take away something
we like.

Like, we were able to use
phones and stuff,

and when during lunch time,
but when we rebel against them,

or do something that we're not
supposed to,

that got taken away,
so we're still -

we still can't use our phones

from the situation that
happened, so.

They know that if we're afraid
of something,

that we're not gonna do
one thing,

because they're going
to take away this.

- Same over here, they said
we said we wanted better lunch,

and they took away
the vending machines.

School is supposed to be like
your home away from home,

where you just gettin'
an education,

but I feel like you can keep
taking away stuff from us,

that's not right, like,
my mamma won't take away

like, my lunch and be like,
"Oh no, you can't eat."

No, she won't do that!

Like, she's gonna try to find
a way for me to like,

have a more and better
environment.

I feel like when you take away
stuff from us,

it's just like, why?
Like, why are you doin' this?

Like, what point is taking away
vending machines from children?

Some kids don't even eat
breakfast,

so by that time, 7:15 hit,
and you ain't eat breakfast,

and you say oh no,
we not servin' breakfast,

that's a whole day they're not
even thinking about school,

they're thinking about
oh, I'm hungry, I'm hungry.

Like, I'm starving, I'm not
having a better environment.

So I just feel like,
why do you take it away?

Try to make it better.

If you hearin' us say
somethin' about it,

then you should be like okay,
that's a concern,

we need to put it on our boards
for next meeting.

Don't just try to push it
under a rug and say,

"no, you not gonna do this, I'm
gonna take it away from you,

and try to like, beat us.

Like, I don't understand it.

- Teachers and the principal
don't really care

about what our opinions
and what we have to say,

because at the end of the day,

they're still gonna get
their cheque.

That's their favourite word,
or line.

- Yeah, at the end of the day,
whatever you do--

- At the end of the day
whatever you do

I'm still getting paid,
so it don't matter

if you get an F or an A.

Astra: Do they say that
to y'all?

All: Yes!
- Yeah, the people at OYC
say it!

- I don't get it, like, you say
you go this and you do that,

and we need to strive
to be like you,

but you don't like your job,

you don't like what you do
for a living.

And what you say to us
all the time is,

go to college so you can do
what you love,

but you don't even love
what you do.

- I learned to cut hair
in prison.

It was like somethin' that
I used to use to

like, get outta my cell, man.

And I would tell
the guards like

"oh, I'm goin' to the shop
to cut", and then they'd just,

I would just be cuttin'
for like,

all day and all night.

And then I just like,
I just started lovin' it,

like it was-it started out
as a hobby,

then it became just somethin'
like, talkin' to dudes,

and getting' to know people.

And I met some interesting
people inside.

I did nine years.

I was at a camp,
they had a meat plant.

I worked in the meat plant.

We'd be packaging the stuff
that they would use

in the public schools.

Astra: Like, did they pay you
for that?

Or did the force you to do it,
or how does that work?

- Well um, you get paid.

You get paid what they call
an incentive wage,

it's like 40 cents a day.

It's embarrassing,
actually, it's crazy, man.

The things that they
subjugate us to.

I was at one camp
where they put you,

when they take you to iso,
they put you in a collar.

You gotta get on your knees,

and submit to the cuffs.

The officer says,
"submit to the cuffs."

Yeah, it's ridiculous, man.

The biggest thing
when I came home

is the psychological effects

of being in the cage
for so long,

and then coming
and being able to like,

be around women, unrestricted.

That was a huge thing for me.

I was like, like,
my first girlfriend,

which we broke up, but um...

she was like, it's okay
to touch me, and stuff.

Like, I was like scared, like,

like, is it okay,

because for so long
I'd been told...

I guess, I guess
I'm not good enough,

or like not worthy enough
of human contact.

Things like this.

So that's what's missin', man,

is trying to get guys like me
to actually adjust

and acclimate to society,

not comfortably because
everybody wants to hate us.

They don't want us
to be comfortable.

Not comfortably, but like,
so that we can survive.

You know, because yes,
we messed up,

but now that we're home,

can we like get a place
to live, and a job?

Like, you're gonna do
a background check

on my place to live,
and my job,

and say I can't live, or work?
Like, what?!

Because I messed up like,
ten years ago?

Astra: And you also
can't vote, right?

- And then I can't even like do
anything to try to change it.

You're right, man.

I don't know, I feel like
it's just greed,

corruption's just taking over
the whole thing, man.

There was a story, they do
this huge investigation,

and turns out
that the head of the SEC

that's investigating the,
the Chase Bank Corporation,

they were frat buddies
with the CEO.

I'm literally reading this,
I'm like,

I can't believe how is it
that this guy was...

actually allowed to prosecute
like, his own...

like, it just...
it's amazing to me.

And wouldn't you believe it,
the guy got off.

Could you believe that,
you know?

So, I guess that's democracy,
right.

When the judge walks down
and gives you a hug,

and says "all right,
you ready to go to trial?"

I guess that's democracy.

I think that democracy
is inherently flawed

because people have to act
it out,

and like Machiavelli said,

"man is a sorry breed,

they're selfish and greedy,

and they're like parasites."

So now you're gonna have like,
ten people get in a room,

and try to decide things,
but their egos are flaring,

and now some law
has been created.

Right? No tellin' what
politician paid so-and-so

to press the green button,

because it's all about
just getting these people

to press buttons to agree

on how they're going
to control the populous.

And then I'm sitting
in the cage,

looking at it.

What're you gonna do about it,
you're gonna fight,

and that's, you got guys
that fight the system,

and they fight 'em
with their own,

fight fire with fire.

Those hunger strikes in prison,

like I was in a hunger strike,

but it was only for six months,

it wasn't one of the big
18 month ones.

And that'll be initiated
like, we'll pass notes,

and we'll get everything
together,

and then we just won't go
to chow,

they'll try to wake us up,
we won't go.

The big thing that
we were fighting for,

which is gonna seem kinda lame,

is they were tryin' to take
the library, man.

This lady came and she told us

that no one can go to school
anymore.

Yeah.

She came in
and she basically was like,

y'all don't deserve to get
an education.

So we stood up and fight.

It used to be,
I know for my heritage,

it used to be illegal
for us to read,

so I don't know if they're
tryin' to go back to this,

or what they're tryin' to do,

like reverse all of this
progress and things,

but it's just no tellin' what
type of laws

there're going to put.

It used to be illegal to read.
I can't believe this.

So like, maybe they're tryin'
to do it again.

Cornel: Every democratic
experiment we know

has been shot through with
structures of domination.

Athens was a slave based
democracy.

The United States,
slave based democracy.

The legacy of white supremacy
was first manifested

with Europeans vis a vis
Indigenous peoples,

the dispossession
of their land,

the violation of their bodies,
their rights,

their dignity,
their self-respect.

The second original sin
was slavery,

which would serve as
not just the land base,

but the economic base

for what would become
a highly limited, precious,

but highly limited
democratic experiment.

The anti-imperialists
at its beginning,

13 colonies revolting
against the British Empire,

the largest empire of its day.

And then question would be,

well, given these revolutionary
beginnings,

the anti-imperialists struggled
against the British Empire.

that's gonna set off some real
signs of freedom, struggle.

Other folk are gonna pick up
on this.

The enslaved people will,
the workers will,

the women will,
the gay brothers,

the lesbian sisters,
the transgender folk,

the bisexual folk,
all will pick up on this.

Lo and behold,
this is a human affair.

But what does it mean? It means
from the very beginning,

it's a global affair.

There's something very powerful
about that,

because it means then all
of these arbitrary boundaries,

all of these lines
of demarcation,

these walls that separate
are shattered,

and therefore our democratic
movement is one that embraces

our brothers and sisters
in Greece,

in North Carolina,
in Guatemala,

in Ethiopia, in Tel Aviv,

in Gaza, in Yemen,

in Somalia, in Newtown,
Connecticut,

and south side Chicago,

and Indigenous Peoples'
reservations.

All of those precious folk
have exactly the same value.

And that's a very different way
of looking at the world.

Silvia: We have the Christian
virtues flying in the sky,

on top of the common good.

We have faith, we have hope,

we have charity.

One of the things that
you notice

is the absence of the principle
of freedom.

Freedom and equality
are not important ideals

in the Middle Ages.

Actually the concept
of liberty and freedom

in the modern sense,
which is self-government,

is a concept that has developed

in the 16th, 17th,
and 18th Centuries

more and more in contact,
with the contact

with the European explorer,
and conquistadors,

with the population
of the Americas.

In which entire communities
had no ruler,

and they also had
no private property.

And so the notion
of freedom as it is used

by people like Rousseau,

the capacity for self
government,

which is our conception,

or at least it is the best
conception of freedom,

it's really something
that we owe

to the Indigenous population
of the Americas.

In fact, out of these tales,

out of these narratives about
the so-called new world,

you know, are beginning to form
the image of an alternative,

another possible society,

in which not only you free
yourself from tyranny,

but you also have
the possibility of self-rule.

Astra: But here in this
painting,

the oligarchs are saying
that they represent

what's best for everybody.

- Yes, exactly.
But in reality,

behind this ideal of harmony,

there is a lot of hidden
struggle,

and it's the struggle for power

between the big merchants
and bankers,

and the local producer,
the guilds,

who are actually
continuously fighting

to enter the government.

So it's very interesting
where democracy is here.

- This is the image of justice
being served, and--

- She has a head on her lap!

It's quite weird.

Here it's an image
of repression,

because we have a body
of guards

hovering over a group
of prisoners, tightly tied,

and in very wretched condition.

So we are asking,
who are these prisoners?

What kind of crimes, you know,
are they being condemned?

And condemned to death,

Because on the extreme
left side,

we also see a decapitation.

So we ask, you know,
who is this man?

Why is he being decapitated?

You know, were they condemned
for political crime?

Were they, perhaps rebels
from some attempted revolt?

- You've created a new reading
of the painting,

'cause they're giving
the image,

here's a picture of good
government,

harmony and peace flows.
- Yes.

- I feel as though suddenly
you've turned it on its head,

because what if these are not
criminals but protestors?

- The true democrats.
- Yes. Exactly, yes.

- Who are trying to force him
to be good?

But what, the whole thing
is what counts as a crime

is always political.
- It's always political.

Astra: After the revolt
of the people

lead to this new idea
of citizenship.

Athenians had to rule
themselves...

Effima: That's right.

Astra: So how did they choose
public officials?

And make sure they
weren't corrupt?

- First of all
they are elected by lot.

It's not that you vote
for them, okay.

Because that was thought to be
very aristocratic to vote.

Voting is very aristocratic,

to the minds of Ancient Greeks.

So you have to have a random
selection of the citizens

to run the business
of the city.

So you don't elected by vote,

you are selected by lot.

It's a random sample of
citizens because everybody,

but everybody has the capacity
to run the business

of the city.

This is the original meaning
of democracy.

Not the majority rule.

Astra: I think peoples fear is,

"Oh my God, if you randomly
selected people by lot,

you know, the random guy
on the subway

could be the President.

- Yes, the Prime Minister
could be somebody

who would be a worker.
So what?

The worker, perhaps,
knows better to run something

than a Prime Minister
who is always, you know,

sort of well protected of...
in the system.

- And only thinking about
wining the next election.

- Yeah. That's right.

Democracy was not
like a wildflower,

where the Athenians
would go and cut it,

and have it as their
political system.

Nor is the case that there is
the ideal form of democracy.

No, they didn't find it
somewhere else,

they invented it.

They created a new political
system

because that would ensure
their wellbeing.

Because you have to ensure the
wellbeing of the people, okay?

That's-that's...

we forget that.
We forget that.

- I was teaching English,
but most of the time,

my students were not interested
in my English,

teaching English,
they were interested...

interested telling stories,
and my stories.

Always they were coming to me,
sir, tell us the stories.

Stories. Stories about life,
stories about something.

Then I was saying that
you're coming for English,

you learn English.
No, sir, you give us a story.

I really enjoy it.

I was born in Afghanistan,

but I grew up in Pakistan.

It was so difficult
to live in Pakistan,

because we are Hazara.

They said they are Hazara,
they are from Afghanistan,

they don't have right
to live here,

let's kill them.

In front of my own eyes
I witnessed

most of the people
who were killed.

Then I was coming to my home,
I was coming home,

I was saying these stories
to my mother.

Then my mother,
I didn't want to come here,

my mother talked,
told me that you go.

If you stay here,
you will be killed.

Astra: What does democracy
mean to you?

- Democracy,
in one word to me is...

to me is justice.

Justice for everyone.

And rule for everyone, justice.

No matter I belong to rich
family, or poor family.

But we don't have justice
in our countries.

The problem is that I was born
in Afghanistan,

and all the people
who are born in poor countries,

do they have any problem?

Are they guilty?

- It was interesting you said
democracy is justice,

because people often say
democracy is freedom.

- Freedom of what?
Hurting somebody?

Freedom of killing somebody?
Freedom of what?

This is also called freedom.

I don't think. So people,
often ideas differ.

Ideas are different.

So in my opinion, I say no.

Freedom of what?

If we have justice,
for example, we have rule.

Justice means rule.

Rule, if you have rule,
this is the limit,

if you cross this limit,
you will be found guilty.

You will be sentenced,
you will go to prison,

this is called.
And yet rule,

justice, such things
are called democracy.

Democracy doesn't mean freedom
for everything, I think.

Don't mind, please.

Man: About what Greekness
do we speak?

I mean,
Greeks have been migrating,

and they have been refugees,

and have been going abroad
to study, to work,

to find a better life,
to make a better life

for themselves for decades,
not even centuries now.

So, this Greekness that
those people speak about

hasn't been lost
all those years.

I don't think that
52,000 people

are able even to change it,

but most of all, they don't
want to change it,

they don't really care
about the Greekness.

There are people fleeing war
and horrid conditions,

they want a free life,
a new life.

They don't want to change
anybody else.

Astra: Democracy makes
this big, universal claim,

that everybody's included.

But historically there have
always been people left out.

- Yeah.

- Can democracy ever live up
to its promise?

- Okay. So, this actually
brings us to a whole other

issue we haven't talked about.
- Okay.

- Which is a big controversy

in thinking about democracy
today.

There are many people
who think about democracy,

and want what they call
global democracy,

or global citizenship.

I'm sceptical.

I think to have democracy
there has to be a "we",

you have to know who
"we the people" are,

it can't just be a kind
of vague, universal thing,

and I think it has to be
bounded.

Because in order to govern
ourselves,

we have to know who the "we"
is who's doing the governing,

and we have to know who
the "ourselves" are,

and what their bounds,
or limits are.

For us to say we're gonna
engage in a democratic process,

we have to decide who's in,
and who's out of that process.

Democracy always has
exclusions.

They've almost always been
premised on terrible forms

of marking, stratifying, and...

and naming who's human,
and who's not human.

By gender, by race.

Today by the question
of documentation,

um, papers and so forth.

I'm not defending those,
but I am defending the idea

that democracy has to have
bounds.

It has to have
a constitutive "we".

- The problem with that is that
there are global structures.

That's what TPP is, right.
- Yep, yep.

- That's what these,
the WTO is.

So you have globalized capital,

and so then what counters that
but global democracy somehow.

- Right. Right. So this
is the nightmare of our time,

which is that the undemocratic
forces,

and the anti-democratic forces

are increasingly global,

increasingly supranational,

not just post-national,

and democracy must have
a grounded,

spatialized domain.

So then the question is,
is it possible?

Can we think this power
problem?

Is it possible to think
about democracy

and democratic contestation
of global forces

that does not match
the scope and the sovereignty

of those forces?

And, I think in the end

the only prospect for democracy

is that it operate at those
more local and bounded levels,

in order not just to contest,
but to dismantle.

The globalized ones.

- Ah, okay.

Man: We are here!
Crowd: We are here!

Man: We are here!
Crowd: We are here!

Man: We are human!
Crowd: We are human!

Man: We are human!
Crowd: We are human!

Man: Open the border!
Crowd: Open the border!

Man: Open the border!
Crowd: Open the border!

Man: Open the border!

Open the border!
Open the border!

Open the border!
Open the border!

Open the border!
Open the border!

Open the border!
Open the border!

Open the border!
Open the border!

Open the border!

Open the border!
Open the border!

Astra: It seems to me
that real democracy,

if it's going to work,

it demands a certain
intellectual engagement,

and wrestling with ideas,
deliberation.

- Mhmm.

- But do you think people
want to rule themselves?

- Well, it's a tough question.

Dostoyevsky raised
the question,

is it not the case that most
people fear freedom?

Is it not the case
that most people

would rather be followers
of authority,

rather than authorize
themselves?

That's the Dostoyevskian
challenge.

Uh, in that sense,
Dostoyevsky is like Plato.

Plato's challenge to democracy,

Dostoyevsky's challenge
to people who want to be free.

How many people
really wanna be free?

James Baldwin said, very few.

"The burden is too much.
Tell me what to do.

Dangle in my face the mysteries
turning into magic,

and the authorities dictating

how I ought to live my life."

That's most people,
that's "Brothers Karamazov,"

the classic of Dostoyevsky,
the last text of Dostoyevsky.

It's a very important challenge.

I think that again,

like Plato
and like Dostoyevsky,

we never provide
a theoretical response

that is persuasive,

because there's always so much
historical evidence

that they're right.

They gotta point out
the ignorance,

they gotta point out
unruly passion,

they gotta point out

people being deferential
to authority in a critical way,

they gotta point out narrow
conceptions of piety,

where people have blind
obedience to authority,

be it Church, Mosque,
Synagogue, Government,

television shows,
radio shows, or whatever,

there's tons of evidence
for that.

That's what we're up against
in human history.

That's why democracy's always
an over against practice,

an over against phenomena,

and therefore it is a sense
in which we look foolish.

Anybody who goes against
the dominant tendencies

of human history,
which are those of hatred,

and revenge, and domination,
and oppression,

and subordination,
and domination, what a fool!

And you say yes, count me in
the crowd of the holy fools.

Silvia: It's a very beautiful,
bustling town.

We see economic activity,
cultural activity,

and also the everyday life.

By the same token,

there's a whole area
of life that's missing.

We don't see inside the house,

we don't see aspects
of reproduction

that are very central,

particularly the raising
of the children.

Reproduction is still
not yet seen as a sphere

of political relations.
Astra: Yes.

- I think it's very important
to bring to this

a family's perspective.
- Yes.

- Because first of all, I think
the women have a particular

ah, insight into democracy.

Women have never been
befriended

by democratic government,
on the contrary.

They've always been excluded
from them,

and for example in Greece,
you know,

women were absolutely
excluded from public life.

And in fact, their only role

was to produce children
for the state.

And I think it was the great
political

and theoretical revolution

of the women's movement
in the '70s

to have said, you know,
the personal is political,

and more important,
the sphere of reproduction,

the sphere where everyday life
is reproduced,

is a political sphere.

This I think, it was
a theoretical revolution,

that the sphere
of the political

is much broader than government,

and passes through the home.

Passes through our kitchen
and our bedroom,

passes through the community.

The community is a centre
of social power.

- The entire social world
is political.

Even our relationships
in the bedroom are political.

- Yes. Yes! Exactly.

Democracy in the home,
democracy in the country,

in order to have full
democracy,

you have to democratize
you know,

the sphere of reproductive
relation.

You cannot simply have
changes of government.

We have to begin the process
of reclaiming control

on all the activity

that are most important
for our existence.

What are the areas
that are crucial

to ensure this capacity
and possibility of self-rule?

- So democracy,
it's worth fighting for?

- Democracy is worth
fighting for,

but we have to be sure
about how we define it.

- Yes.

- Not from above,
always from below.