Waco: A New Revelation (2000) - full transcript

Hello. I'm Dr. Frederick Whitehurst.

I was employed by the FBI
for 16 years as an agent.

The last 12 of those years, at the
FBI Crime Laboratory in Washington DC.

After reviewing the results
of a six-year investigation

into the tragedy at Waco, Texas,
I am convinced that the American people

have never been told the
full truth about that matter.

On February 28, 1993, agents of the
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms

raided the Branch Davidian
compound near Waco, Texas.

Four ATF agents and six
Branch Davidians were killed.

The Branch Davidians were
immediately charged with murder,

thus beginning a 51-day siege.
On April, 19th, 1993,



the siege ended in a fire
which destroyed the compound

and took the lives of 79 men,
women and children.

The FBI later claimed that the
Davidians had committed suicide.

Since 1993, former FBI,
Special Forces and CIA operatives

have come forward with evidence
to suggest this claim is not true.

This is the story of that evidence.

Waco
A New Revelation

Having served with the FBI's hostage
negotiation team during this crisis,

April the 19th would mark
the end of one of my duties

and the beginning of another.

Unknown to me, my life was
about to change forever,

as I would come to
know what failure is.

Today, I saw the gates of hell.

I saw the gates of hell.



Holding a child in your hands,
that lost its life in a fire,

where the temperature's reached
in excess of 3,000 degrees,

is something that pierced my heart.

April 19th, turned the TV
on and there I saw the tanks

ramming into the front of the building,
and the fire shooting out.

And it was just...
it was horrifying.

Mommy, he says, you know,
they told us about that fire, he says,

they said my daddy and my
brother and my sisters are gone.

Things will be set straight. People
will know the truth of things.

Today, two subcommittees
undertake historic joint hearings

on executive branch
conduct during...

that led up to the events at Waco,
Texas, in 1993.

In human terms, these hearings
are about a tragic loss of life.

Four brave young law
enforcement officers

lost their lives on
February 28, 1993.

A planned raid went
badly and off-course.

These four agents, dedicated and proud,
deserve our full respect.

They did not choose to die, but, like
many others in law enforcement community,

they chose to serve.
But this is a complex event.

On April 19, 1993,
after a 51-day siege,

other decisions led to the use of
so-called CS gas and a fire broke out.

The fire rapidly consumed
the entire Davidian compound,

killing all 22 innocent children
and more than 60 adults.

The truth behind that part of
the tragedy is also important

and is the obligation of those who
have responsibility for oversight

to pursue the truth relentlessly.

The Branch Davidians were
seventh-day Adventists

or a sect of seventh-day Adventists.
They were an offshoot,

developed first in California under
the leadership of Victor Jara.

He moved to Waco in 1934-35, founded
a community called Mount Carmel.

His followers, in turn, moved to the
location we know in the early 60's.

If you once get to know these people,
they're different from you and me,

they're more religious
than you and me,

they know the Bible
better than you and me.

They lived apart
from the rest of us,

they lived in a manner
different than the rest of us,

they had different marriage customs
and different property practices

than the rest of us have.

And they had a religion that was
absolutely incomprehensible to

most Christians.

Well, there were people
from all walks of life,

various nations and...
a lot of them came from England.

There were colored people
as well as white people.

Majority of those people
in there were not criminals

in the sense of the word
that we think about them,

they were truly believing people.
I believe

99% of those people, their sole purpose
was the attainment of eternal life,

which is, after all,
what I believe all of us, you know,

at least that are Christians,
believe in.

The Branch Davidians believe,
first of all,

that is the remnants of the true faith,
they would be attacked

by a hostile army representing
an apostate government,

Babylon they called it...

and that it was their religious
duty to defend the faith.

In 1992, the Bureau of Alcohol,
Tobacco and Firearms

began an investigation
into David Koresh

for the possession
of illegal firearms.

They formed a dynamic entry
plan to secure the premises

and seize illegal weapons,
with approximately 100 federal agents

and three helicopters, which
would ultimately cost the lives

of four ATF agents and
six Branch Davidians.

On February 28, 1993,
at approximately 9:40 a.m.,

ATF agents, while attempting
to execute a warrant,

were met with heavy gunfire
by a group of individuals

occupying a compound approximately
10 miles northeast of Waco, Texas.

The group is identified
as the Branch Davidian.

A gunfight broke out that would
become the longest shootout

in American law
enforcement history.

According to the ATF, their
men pulled up to Mount Carmel,

piled out of their cattle trailers,
went running towards the door

guns pointed, shouting: police.
Search warrant, lay down.

According to them, David was
standing at the front door unarmed

and he shut the door when they
started running towards him.

And the next thing the ATF knew,
it says, it was receiving gunfire

from inside of Mount Carmel, in
particular from behind that front door.

He knew law enforcement was
coming and he was so diabolical

that he laid an ambush.

David Koresh expresses this,
he says in this tape

that he went out on his porch,
he said: stop,

there's women and children in here.
And a shot rang out

and hit the door to the right,
that door, he says, kicked.

I went running down the hall and
found Harry Jones laying in the hall

screaming that he'd been shot.
Harry Jones was in his 60's,

he was unarmed, as was David Koresh.
When they went to the front door,

both were shot in the
area of the front door.

David was shot in the wrist,
Harry Jones was shot in the stomach.

And then he says: if you don't
believe me, look at the videotape.

I know you have that tape, he says.
I saw you making it across the road.

According the agency, there
were three or four video cameras

pointed at the front
door that could tell you

everything that happened at the
front door of that building that day.

They claim they can't
find a single one of them.

Every one of those
videotapes vanished.

In addition to the
missing videotape,

the ATF's on scene activity
logs also disappeared.

I'm sorry, sir, I just...
You mentioned that notes were

- torn out of the surveillance log.
- I was just wondering, how does that happen?

I don't know, sir,
I had never heard that before.

My dad's name was Perry Jones.
He was an unarmed man and...

you guys just shot through the
door and killed him. Thanks a lot.

Ballesteros was one of the first ones
to the door, officer Ballesteros,

he's an ATF agent.
And they had a plan

that, if the dogs came up to attack
them when they came to the front door,

that they were to shoot the dogs,
to kill the dogs. And

he testified at a pre-trial hearing
that, in fact, they did fire

and shoot the dogs at that time.

It didn't take much of a
spark to get a war going.

I remember gun shooting
through the windows...

Our room was shot up completely.

I did my best at getting the kids under
the bed. All of a sudden, now there's...

I don't know how many,
50, 70, 100 people outside.

But at some point, before I
got taking Brian under the bed,

bullets came flying in my way.

We're a law enforcement agency,

we don't fire through walls
indiscriminately at people.

I greatly feared that they would
come in, they would open that door

and even though I didn't have a gun,
it wouldn't matter,

that they would shoot
me and the kids.

They'd already shot
into the window and...

I had no clue what was coming (?).

The government tried to say that
everybody... they could put a gun

in everybody's hand at the
beginning and during the raid...

That's not true,
most people were unarmed.

There were a few that had guns
and I admit that and they were

probably those that reacted
to seeing David and Perry

and others gunned down...
who responded by firing back,

but it was not a general ambush,
as they would like you to believe.

I am in sympathy with the
families of those that lost...

the families of the
four agents that died.

I know what they're going through.
We lost...

a lot of friends and a lot of
our families. I lost a daughter

inside Mount Carmel.

After about two hours,
they had a real truce.

It wasn't a pretty sight. I mean,
there were grown men crying all around,

there was a group of guys
that were down on their knees

and they were praying... Very
disturbing, you know, type of thing.

I don't think the deaths on
either side were justified,

as well as those wounded.
Judy Snider was shot

while nursing her baby
through the chest.

Get my battery, John.
Get my battery behind the bus.

Immediately following the ATF raid,
the Branch Davidians were charged

with murder and conspiracy to
commit murder of federal agents.

A year later, the jury found
all the Branch Davidians

not guilty of both charges, but some
were convicted of lesser offenses.

Since the initial February 28th raid,
a review is before federal court

to determine if the ATF
used excessive force

while serving the search warrant.

- Sir, I...
- We got people shot. Get the hell off of here.

I'll get off the property,
that's what I'm doing, sir.

(?) - Have a little respect.
- I am, sir.

You could have arrested me any day
as I jog up and down this road,

you could have arrested me going
to town or going to Walmart...

All this stuff you make, you
guys may wanna avoid and deny

and I do not appreciate it and
never would I ever appreciate

somebody coming here and
pushing people around with guns.

Hey, I'll meet you at the
doorstep any day, you know.

And somebody will get hurt if you
wanna keep playing that game...

I'm talking to you,
somebody's gonna get hurt,

cuz this ain't America anymore
when the ATF has that kind of power

to come into anybody's home and kick
doors down and things like that.

The federal agent said they
are headed back to the house,

so this thing is not over
by a long shot and the only

way that this is going to end
is for all of the people inside

to die or to surrender, Brad.

I was walking out...
There wasn't any room in the car

and when they saw me,
they just swarmed on me.

They're hitting me, trying to
take my camera away from me,

yelling at me...
and after all this went down,

the Secret Service asked me if I
wanted to prosecute the agents.

I said no, I said I understand them
and I was their first vent valve.

At this point, we were surrounded.
At this point,

we did not have a clue what the
government, Babylon, in our opinion,

was going to do in retaliation,
but we knew it wasn't gonna be fun.

On the evening of February 28th,
while Mount Carmel is under siege,

three Davidians not
present during the gunfight

try to return home to their families.
Two of the men are taken into custody,

but Michael Dean
Schroeder is killed.

They say that they stopped them
and they asked for who they were

or whatever. I don't see how any
of the ATF agents were close enough

to ask him any questions.

Michael Schroeder's body is
left in a ravine for five days

300 yards from Mount Carmel.
According to the ATF statements,

Schroeder refused demands to
surrender and raised a pistol.

11 agents fired on Schroeder.
The autopsy report indicates

that he had seven bullet injuries.

Why it takes so many
fatal bullet wounds

to knock somebody to the ground?

According to testimony, as the
ATF agents were walking away

with their prisoner, leaving Mike
lay there like a piece of meat,

an ATF agent stated that
they heard two more gunshots.

Norman was picked up...

He told the others when
he was in jail with them,

he said, I've tried surrender,
he said, they were taking me away.

He said, I heard two
more shots up the back.

Schroder's autopsy report also indicated
that there were two entry wounds

behind his right ear
only two inches apart.

The bullets passed through
this blue stocking cap.

However, the stocking cap was
not examined during the autopsy,

nor was any forensic testing
conducted before Schroeder's relatives

had his body cremated.

I said, Mike ambushed him (?),
there was 17 of them

as against him and they
were dressed up as trees...

They got a lot to answer for.

After the initial raid
happened in February 28,

we got several phone
calls in from the ATF

that said if they saw any
movement inside the building,

hands in front of the windows, if people
were standing in front of the windows

that they felt that it was a threatening
situation and that they would shoot us.

On March the 1st, the FBI begins
negotiations with the Davidians.

Heavy military equipment is
brought in and a stalemate begins

that will last 51 days.

Several adults and
children leave Mount Carmel

and are transferred to ATF custody.

The children are turned over
to Texas Social Services.

We have 21 children that have been
released to our care thus far.

The youngest of those
children is five months old

and the oldest one is a 12 year old.
The children

appear to be smart and well
educated, very sharp children.

They seem to have been
very well cared for...

In early March, Koresh promised to
come out, but at the last minute,

he believed that God had
told him to stay in, to wait.

During the siege,
David Koresh believed

that the Nahum prophecy
was being fulfilled

and which we believe,
spiritually speaking,

it's talking about
the one world order.

David Koresh believed that he was
going to be the one that initiates

the downfall of this one or new world
order, the fall of Babylon, the Great,

by sacrificing himself
in this denomination.

The description of Nineveh
in the book of Nahum,

David likened to the description
of this country being old,

stagnant in its ways and
the battle that takes place,

talks about these chariots, shields
being bloodied and what's not...

He likened that battle to what
took place on February 28.

To read Nahum Habakkuk and...

you're in it, you're experiencing it.
It all fits together,

it's all a conglomerate
of different prophecies

by different men at different times
talking about a war with Babylon,

a Great War.

These tanks are for solely defensive
purposes and they will not be armed.

We have no plans to
assault the compound.

2,000 years ago, hey, who would
believe in Christ's doctrine?

The man had to die. No one would
believe what he had to say.

So, is there a lesson to
be learned by looking back

at the history of the prophets? I came
contrary to what people looked for,

- where they ever...
- They killed Isaiah, they killed ???,

they killed Zechariah and Jesus came
to say, in Matthew 23, to the Jews:

(?) Want you to believe not
all the promises spoken?

So, you know...

today, it's altogether
just totally disregarded,

just another religious fanatic,
just another religious group...

Ever since the rise of television,

there's been a merger of
news and entertainment,

monster stories and fairy stories
are good, simple entertainment.

And here, you have media from
all over the world has flown in

and expected by their home
offices all around the world to

produce a story every day.
I mean, the government

could have just issued a
press release every day

and the media would have read
it word for word over the...

over the air, just...
I mean, that's how...

you know, desperate it was.

What the public was seeing and
hearing on TV during the siege

demonized the people
in that church.

The ones that I met knew,
the survivors,

were people that were basically
just trying to get to heaven.

The world can hate us, the world can
laugh at us and taunt us all they want.

The world's had 2,000 years to learn
this book and there's been people

all up until now who've
been interested in it.

Now people don't want
the Bible anymore,

people don't seem to want to
read the Bible or, you know,

they wanna go to church and
just be saved, you know,

and that's great if that's how
faith works, but if God has a will

and it is written in that book,
its spirit's written in the book

through all the prophets, then there's
the knowledge he wants us to know

and the knowledge is here that's being
revealed and that's all I can say.

By March 24th,
25 children under the age of 15

and approximately 54 adults
remain inside the church compound,

as Steve Schneider
negotiates with the FBI.

Let's reflect on this for a minute.

Why were they there
in the first instance?

A good question.

They were there to serve and execute
an arrest and search warrant.

They never said anything. Not by a
bullhorn, not by a knock at the door,

not by any reason, not by any reason.
Even before they got,

just about the time they got to the
porch is when David opened the door

and poked his head out.

What we want to do, and what we
will do when the time is right, is

we will process the crime scene there.
You know that, we know that.

That wouldn't be so bad... the biggest
issue that I've raised with you, Dick,

is not that you would be here even,
or that the Texas Rangers,

but I am adamant about this
part that the ATF is playing,

the ones that came to this place

and what I have heard on the press
conference, the outright lies.

And to think that that
agency would be involved

in any aspect of this from
here on out blows my mind that

that would even be
allowed in America.

Well, Steve, let's face it. There are
some things that we will deal with

- when the time is right...
- No, no, no...

- and that will be done.
- we start dealing with it now so we can come out.

I mean, that's one of the biggest
reasons I have not been able to hurdle

talking to the people,
getting them to come out yet.

Okay, Steve, why don't you
and your family come out

and you handle these issues, okay?
Why don't we do that?

How am I going to handle
them when I'll be locked...

when I'll be shackled on
hands and feet and thrown...

the key will be thrown away,
who's gonna hear me?

- Steve...
- They're after blood. Come on, Dick.

They put me in the jail
in Waco, here.

After I'd been there a short period
of time, they brought me in and

a judge came and told me
what I was being charged for.

And he says, you're being charged
for murder, conspiracy to murder.

He said it'll be 100 years,
75 or 50.

They were assuring us that we would
be cared for in a professional manner,

then you turn around and you've got
people that are flipping you the

finger over top of the tanks,
they're dropping their drawers

and bearing (?) their butts.

And these are the type of people
that you're supposed to go out to?

I said I had heard that you guys
had wrote on some of the windows

there, at Mount Carmel,
that we see you, David, etc.

And I asked the agent: was this true?
And he said, yeah, it's true.

And I said: aren't you guys
concerned about, when this is over,

that the news media
might see this and

think it a little
antagonistic on your part?

He just looked at
me and walked away.

Everything flip-flopped from
day to day. You went through a

feeling of being real hopeful
to you suck at the bottom again,

because, from day to day, you never
really knew what was gonna happen,

what the negotiations
were gonna be.

- Steve?
- Yeah?

There's been a change.

The technical people have
changed the situation,

and for security reasons,
and for safety reasons,

no one is now authorized to come
out of there for any reason.

And what they're telling
me is that if anybody does,

they're going to be dealt
with in such a fashion

that the people will have to...
retreat back to the compound.

What? I'm not... I'm missing,
I guess, what you're saying now.

Are you saying...
make it as plain as possible.

The patience of the bosses is
no longer where it was earlier.

- Okay...
- In this, in this...

I'm about... Listen to me now, Henry.
I don't really give about your bosses.

When you tell me one thing,
or you tell us that is okay,

and this Bradley comes up and says
something contrary to what you are,

you tell your bosses to get their
butts together. You hear me?

Would you respond
to the allegations

that the reason why we had a Waco
is because the FBI was in disarray?

It is obvious that from the time of
the change in the administration,

it was very clear that
there was a great discussion

about the replacement of
the director of the FBI.

In a March 11th letter
to President Clinton,

acting Attorney General, Stewart
Gerson, recommends that the president

rely on other FBI leadership to resolve
Waco and dismiss director Sessions.

Chief among those mentioned
in Gerson's letter

is assistant director Floyd Clark.
This situation created

a competitive environment for
the directorship of the FBI

in the midst of a major crisis.

I know this is a very political
thing and I agree that...

with your observation that
it could be that the FBI

was impaired in its ability. Certainly,
I was impaired in my ability.

FBI director, William Sessions, attempted
to fly to Waco during the siege

to conduct face-to-face
negotiations with David Koresh,

but he was impeded by government
officials in Washington DC.

The reason Bill Sessions never came
to Waco during the siege was that

the Justice Department refused
to let him board his plane.

Everybody knows that I had
contact directly from people

associated with Mr. Koresh about
the possibility of my going down

and negotiating with them, coming
in down there. Now, some people

played that as ridiculous and
ridiculed it, or as grandstanding,

but it's indicative of what
I felt and continued to feel.

You can't discard any possibility

that you can resolve
that kind of circumstance

when you can take and apply
that negotiating capability.

The Justice Department wouldn't
allow an FBI director to go and

negotiate directly with a
so-called terrorist who they

felt had killed a number of federal
agents more or less in cold blood

and try to defuse a serious
situation ended up in a calamity and

a great embarrassment for the FBI,

and even greater embarrassment for
law enforcement, in general, and...

and it was all politics.

And they were not about to see this
standoff in Waco negotiated again,

because it was an opportunity
for Floyd Clark and company

to show that they were the FBI
capable of handling a standoff

and coming out winning in
this kind of an incident with

military kind of tactics.
It was a paramilitary organization.

Maybe you might ask him if you
can have some ice cream too, huh?

Can I have some ice cream?

A little brown berry there. Now,
you're... right now, you're considered

a big terrorist, you know, and you
can demand some important things

like an ice cream or something, you
know. Maybe they might ??? to you.

By late March, the FBI has cut
off electricity to the compound

and is preparing a series of military
tactics to force a resolution.

A direct quote from the transcript
where it is said by a negotiator

to Mr. Koresh: "We had a very
good dialogue last night.

The electricity will not go
off tonight because we've had

a good dialogue this evening",
as a negotiator to Mr. Koresh.

"Half an hour later..." No, I'm sorry.
It's a negotiator to Mr. Steve Schneider.

"And half an hour later, the lights are
turned off and left off permanently."

The electricity is shut off. Why?

I can't answer the why, but I can
tell you that the negotiation team

was disappointed in that decision.

Since mid-March,
negotiations have begun to fail

and the FBI resorts to
psychological warfare.

- I don't appreciate their music.
- Get out!

I haven't sleep at
night from the music.

(?) I thought you've been a
teenager. You might like some

- Well, I can sleep ???. It's my little sister.
- of those Martian songs. (?)

Oh, I see.

We went through varying degrees
of hell with noise, music,

bright lights... The children were
suffering along with the adults.

We were without water. Having
had our water tanks shot up,

we were living on rainwater.
Whenever it would rain,

people would put buckets out
the window and collect rainwater

and it was rationed...

I doubt whether anybody got more
than 8 ounces a day, if that.

How long do you sit with
that many resources tied up

and in disrupting a home community

with people that are violating...
in violation of law,

that are, in fact,
in a state of anarchy.

I can remember looking out the
south side of the building...

My attention had been drawn to the
fact that the tanks were coming in

and they were pushing all the things
on the south side of the church,

south side of the
chapel into a big heap,

looked like they were
building a bonfire.

We know from the evidence that
the tactical element of the FBI

was eager to put a quick
end to the standoff.

The irony of the situation
is that the tactical people

are actually precipitating
the crisis of the 19th.

They tell me the commanders
want more and I'm telling them

they're wrecking
everything that we're doing

and it's getting ten
times worse and...

and the more they threaten these
people, the more they'll lay down

right on the floor and they
can run the tanks over them.

I mean, that becomes the attitude.

Steve Snyder, in a telephone call
during the standoff to his sister Sue,

refers to the prophecies in
the book of Nahum, chapter 2:

We're talking about the
Bible and all the prophecies.

- But I know.
- Look it. When you get off the phone,

- you look at the book of Nahum.
- Yeah...

That the chariots of flaming
torches are tanks.

That's what Nahum saw in the
final days, they've surrounded us.

It's the first time in the
history of the United States

that the government has used
tanks against its own people, Sue.

It's stupid, I know it.

Well, I had been talking to
the negotiators myself and I...

and I would tell them things
that I thought would help.

And it seemed like...
like, for instance,

when they started playing the music,
that... they would laugh,

they acted like they wanted
to do everything to antagonize

and they really didn't want to
help and it just seemed like

every prediction that David
was predicting, they knew about

and they were making these
predictions come true

and I kept saying to my family:

why are they doing this if
they want them to come out?

I am... bewildered in
the wake of Jonestown,

why more time wasn't spent and
somebody, not out in the plains of Waco,

but, maybe, in a nice
comfortable office in Washington,

didn't immerse themselves in
the religious tenets of this

- Branch Davidian group.
- If I knew about the his plans

to burn the place, I would ???
a whole another approach with him:

we know about your plan to burn
the place and destroy your people.

We would have been broadcasting it,

we would not even come close
to approaching that place.

Numerous microphones were
planted inside of Mount Carmel,

that recorded several
conversations of the Davidians

reacting to the tanks and
the FBI hostage rescue team.

I mean, if they're going to come
inside here and storm this place,

they're in the wrong.
And who is Louis and Steve

that they think they're going to
go out there and stop the Assyrian

when it's God's will that
the Assyrian's out there?

They can't destroy us unless
it's God's will they do.

Haven't you read
Joel 2 and Isaiah 13,

where it says He's going to
take us up like flames of fire?

I trust in God.

The FBI cannot get up here
and say they did not know

that David Koresh would respond
when they made that assault.

They knew that David
Koresh was gonna respond

by trying to burn the place
down and they knew that because

they had overheard undercover tapes

and because I'd had prior
negotiation tapes with him.

You know, things are only
going to get worse out there.

This whole situation is not gonna
go away. You know and I know

the only way we're going to resolve
this situation is you folks come on out.

That's the end of it right there.
And now we're gonna have to work

to a point where this is gonna happen.
And now the trick is: how?

And now, a situation like this is:
that's the answer.

I tell you what, it definitely
is an unusual situation for sure.

Oh, some time when you have
a chance to read Isaiah 33

about people living in
fire and walking through it

and coming out and surviving.
Seriously, who can,

it says who can dwell in everlasting
burning. That's the question.

There is a tradition in the
Branch Davidian history that

God would, in the end time, protect
His people through a wall of fire.

They understand the Bible prophecies
to be warnings of what could happen,

but not necessarily
what must happen.

Koresh wrote a letter to
his attorney ??? Garrett

in which he said he had good news,
God had spoken to him,

the waiting period was coming
to an end, he and all the people

could exit Mount Carmel
and go through the system.

But first, he was commanded to write
down the meaning of His message,

the meaning of the Seven Seals.
After he wrote that manuscript,

he and all the people
were commanded to leave.

They actually had no choice to remain,
God had told them to leave.

This message is communicated to the
FBI in an attempt to end the siege.

Koresh writes his first Seal
and is preparing the second

when the FBI begins implementing
its final tactical resolution.

They'd been knocking down trees

and dragging things off
from outside Mount Carmel,

little by little,
for several weeks.

On the 18th, they got rid
of everything that was left.

Just like the papacy
during the Dark Ages...

When they thought people were heretics,
they went ahead and dealt with them,

that was the way they believed...

And, you know, we have to
all follow our conscience,

that's why America is
supposed to be a great nation,

where we can follow our conscience
according to our beliefs.

There was an aura there that...

we're gonna end this thing.

Individuals inside the
Branch Davidian compound,

we are in the process of placing
tear gas in the building.

This is not an assault.
This is not an assault.

???

Gas was inserted using a Mark 5
delivery system secured to a boom.

We would not use dosages that
would harm those children.

The FBI's position on this, from
day one, was to be very deliberate,

very careful and not to do
anything that would be provocative,

that would cause some reaction.

There were no injured FBI agents

and FBI agents did not return any
fire throughout the entire day,

in spite of being fired upon numerous
times by occupants of the compound.

The plan was for this to
continue for 48 hours,

but there was a catch to the plan.
If the tanks took fire

from the Davidians, they were
then allowed to escalate the plan.

According to the official
briefing given to Attorney General

Janet Reno,
by the FBI on April the 12,

the assault plan called for
demolition of the building

and permission to shoot streams
of automatic weapons fire

into the building to support
an armored vehicle's approach.

And we told them what
was gonna happen.

This tank's gonna come up,
it's gonna insert gas,

we are not entering the compound,
we're not fulfilling this prophecy,

don't presume that.

Was the Attorney General warned
that, while we'd been very cautious

about selecting what your
experts say, our experts say

was non-lethal gas, we might still
crush sections in the building?

Did she understand that
people might be killed?

I find an inconsistency between the
efforts of the gas insertion plan

to save life and the
actions of this tank.

At Mount Carmel, you had people
that were confined to an area...

Where were they gonna go?
Who were they gonna hurt?

They ran out of gas canisters, I
think about 10 o'clock in the morning.

Everything they had planned for 48
hours was gone by the end ???,

they were flying in
more from Houston.

The CS gas used at Mount Carmel was
more potent than normal tear gas.

CS gas would induce nausea,
vomiting and disorientation.

As the FBI tanks
demolished the building,

the gas was dispersed
from high pressure bottles

mounted on the boom of the
combat engineering vehicles.

Any indication about danger
or harm to those children,

the rule was: back off.

One of the first locations gassed
by the FBI is the buried school bus,

the entryway to an
underground storm shelter.

Following the gassing,
the mothers of the children

take them to an enclosed concrete vault,
which the FBI calls the bunker.

The FBI gasses the
bunker for two hours.

Approximately half of a panel
that we had testified that

some of the infants and children,
since they didn't have gas masks,

could, in fact, have died from
inhalation or effects of CS gas.

At the very least, the Department
of Justice decision, in fact,

resulted in the babies and
children being tortured

for at least three to four hours.

I'd been told that
earlier in the morning

the filters wouldn't last long.
When it did block up,

I had taken my mask off, only to
find my face burning and stinging,

is like you had acid all over you.
Some of them were trying to

wipe it off with minimal amounts
of their drinking water on

and perhaps a rag or whatever,
only to find that it made it worse.

So, as I say, what the children
were going through, only God knows.

I saw grown men, adults crying
because of the sensation of the gas.

As I say, we were fortunate
in as much as we were not in a

enclosed environment,
like the children were,

being sprayed point-blank and
not having any ventilation.

We are now at what we believe
is the next logical juncture

of putting sufficient pressure on
them to cause them to come out.

We saw a hole that a tank had made
in the south wall of the chapel

and we were kind of standing
right... just inside of that,

there's a heap of rubble, sheetrock
and ??? that the tank had pushed in.

We were standing just a
little back from the hole,

trying to decide whether,
if we went out, we would be shot.

And as we were standing there,
others were kind of coming in behind us.

Next thing I knew, I kind of turned,
was looking out the hole again

and all this smoke came down
the outside of the building and

got sucked in the hole where we
were and the whole place turned

pitch-black. That was the first
indication that I recall of...

of any evidence of fire.

Any statement by you that
they committed suicide,

since we never got to talk to them
is all a conclusion that you've drawn

and, as you just said,
speculation on your part.

I'm trying to resolve
in my mind why someone

would sit in there for
six hours with gas and

not come out, with a full
opportunity to come out.

Who was keeping them from doing it,

or they compelling themselves or why?
I don't know, I'm just...

it has to be speculation.

I think that the point
is we don't know.

It was so black you couldn't
even see the flames.

You could just feel the heat,
oppressive heat that

pushed you down on the ground. And
I can remember looking at my hands

and the skin was just rolling off,
there's no blister, they were

just rolling off in whole layers,
you might say and

I looked back over my shoulder,
I was just horrified the fact that

I've just come through
a mass of flames.

I heard some people screaming,
kind of high-pitched screams.

It didn't sound anyone
was like a scream of fear,

it sounded like more of a scream
that someone's getting burnt.

We were hoping that the
women in that compound

would grab their children and
flee out. That did not occur.

Unfortunately, they bunkered down
the children the best we can tell

and they allowed those children
to go to up in flames with them.

David Koresh, Steve Snyder,
52 other adults, 25 children

and two trauma born infants
perished in the April 19th fire.

The Davidian survivors were taken into
custody by FBI agents on the scene.

Clive Doyle and other
injured Branch Davidians

were given emergency treatment
at the FBI command post.

The uninjured Davidians were
transferred to the custody of the ATF

and booked into the county jail.

The reason we didn't wait was the
thing I've tried to say several times.

(?) I'm not saying it but well enough is
that, from his actions on the 19th,

when he had some of those
people killed by gunfire,

others died in the fire for
not being able to leave,

which I think they were
concerned most over salvation.

That was his whole
Overland (?) is that

he would dictate
when that occurred.

Many people would
argue your actions.

How do you respond
to their families?

It's not because of our actions.

Those children are dead because
David Koresh had them killed.

There's no question about that.
He had those fires started.

He had 51 days to
release those children.

He chose those children to die.

I don't know who started
the fire or fires.

I don't know who fired bullets
into these people's bodies.

I don't know from what
origin the bullets came from.

So, if we could completely
agree that we do not have

a definitive answer of the
sourcing, then, in fact,

what we have is an open homicide.

Is there anything that we've
missed that we should go after

in the remaining two days?

Yes, sir. I think we've
missed some of the questions,

as I've mentioned early, why items
of evidence have disappeared,

why the crime scene was destroyed
before it could be evaluated...

These areas, especially
the evidence disappearing.

I mean, you have, in essence,

a crime scene that was
so seriously flawed,

through ignorance, or through
an air of an elite mentality,

or, in fact, there was a
conscious decision made

to not collect evidence for
any sort of serious examination

other than to try and
prove that the Davidians

had weaponry and firepower
enough to kill federal agents.

Some of these bodies exhibited
characteristics of perhaps being shot.

Did anyone fire from
any other location?

Sierra 1: location of BLUE sniper team

The information that
we've always been given

was that there was no federal gun
fire on the day of April 19th.

Well, in reviewing the photographs
and the 302's, the statements in them,

I would say there are some
questions that need to be answered.

The FBI named the sniper positions
Sierra 1, Sierra 2, Sierra 3.

On April 19th,
FBI Special Agent Charles Riley

stated in his after-action report
that he had heard shots fired

that morning from sniper position
number 1, the undercover house.

The position was occupied
by the Blue sniper team,

led by Special Agent Lon Horiuchi.

Horiuchi stated that
neither he nor his snipers

fired their weapons on April 19th.

The fact that agent Horiuchi
states in history O2 that

the snipers at Sierra 1, which was
the undercover house, did not fire

and there is a shell casing,
expended shell casing

there visible on the floor,
would also raise a question.

Four expended shell casings
are later found at Sierra 1,

the location of agent
Horiuchi's Blue sniper team.

What makes this particularly
interesting is Mr. Horiuchi,

coincidentally, happens to be
the FBI agent who shot and killed

Vicki Weaver at Ruby Ridge and
has been charged with manslaughter

by the state of Idaho.

In August, 1992, white
separatists Randy and Vicki Weaver

were involved in a standoff with
the FBI at their mountain home.

Agent Horiuchi shot and
killed Vicki Weaver,

who was standing in the window of the
door holding her 10 month old daughter.

She was standing there holding
a baby, our baby in her arms,

holding the door so we could
get in after they'd wounded me.

And this guy is still running free.

According to an internal federal
government investigation,

Horiuchi shot is termed
unconstitutional.

Lon Horiuchi was never tried.

Seven months later, he was the leader
of the Blue sniper team at Waco,

accompanied by most of the
FBI team from Ruby Ridge.

Our desire was to get them out,
to use non-lethal means

in a systematic manner, so that
they would come before the bar

and face justice.
We did not want this to occur.

At some point,
we had this up the ante (?).

He was continually fortifying,
he was demanding

and was seeking provocation to
get into a shootout with us,

which we were refusing to do.

According to the FBI's on-site
activity log, at 9:03 a.m.,

FBI command advised Sierra
2 that an unknown subject

could be seen traveling on foot
at the back of the building.

In this aerial photo taken
at approximately 9:00 a.m.,

a Davidian appears to
be leaving the building

and walking toward the
back of the compound.

The log indicates that Falcon 2,
an FBI helicopter,

took off to intercept the subject.

As it approaches Mount Carmel,

several flashes can be seen coming
from the side of the helicopter.

Dr. Edward Allard, a former
supervising scientist in video

and television imagery at the US
government's Night-Vision Directorate,

examined the helicopter footage and
concludes that the flashes are gunfire.

When we analyze these flashes,
as we have done,

in one sixtieth of
a second time frames,

it appears that there's three
shots coming from the helicopter,

but, in fact, each one of those
three shots can be broken down

into one sixtieth time frames,
sixtieth of a second

and we find, for instance,
in the first flash,

there's five separate shots
being fired and it's indicative

of a machine gun that's firing
at about 600 rounds per minute.

In this view of one of
the FBI's helicopters,

a pedestal mounted machine gun can
be clearly seen in the doorway.

FBI agents did not return any
fire throughout the entire day,

in spite of being fired upon numerous
times by occupants of the compound.

On the other hand,
since this is on a helicopter

and people might say that it's
reflections from the windshield,

it's impossible for these shots that
you're seeing with your own eyes

to be solar reflections because,
if it were so,

the helicopter would have to be
violently moving back and forth,

like a mirror in your hands and
this is impossible. So, it's...

In our opinion, it's clearly
machine gunfire from the helicopter.

In coming out, the conversation,
as I remember, it was, well,

if we come out, we will be shot.

According to the autopsy reports,

Phillip Henry was shot several times
in the chest, shoulder and head.

Jimmy Riddle was shot
once in the forehead.

Neither of them had soot
accumulation in their trachea

or bronchial tubes or carbon
monoxide in their blood,

indicating that they died
before the fire started.

Later, when I saw the autopsy report

and seen that he died of a
gunshot wound to the head,

it made me wonder if it was, in fact,
the snipers that were in the barn,

garage that was in the
back of the property.

The autopsy reports also indicated
extensive body mutilation

to Phillip Henry and Jimmy Riddle.

The entire right side of Riddle's
body, from the shoulder to the hip,

had been torn away.
In previous testimony,

Dr. Nizam Peerwani,
the medical examiner, observed

that this could have been the result
of the collapse of the building

or an encounter with a tank tread.

Phillip Henry's body was interred
during the year following his death.

However, a new autopsy was requested
by Jimmy Riddle's relatives

to settle the circumstances
surrounding the missing portion

of Riddle's body and the
gunshot wound to his head.

Dr. Ron Graser, the forensic pathologist
who conducted the examination,

concluded in his findings that the
damage to Riddle's skeletal remains

is consistent with a tank
having torn the body apart.

A forensic examination of the bullet
entry wound in Jimmy Riddle's skull

could not be conducted because
the evidentiary portion

of the skull was missing.

Dr. Peerwani performed
the original autopsy

and was asked to provide a certified
copy of his report for comparison.

According to Riddle's relatives,
the local Texas authorities

and US Marshals refused to allow Dr.
Peerwani to turn over the documents.

We got to Dr. Peerwani's office
trying to get the information

on my brother, Jimmy Riddle.
Dr. Peerwani told me that

he didn't know why they kept trying
to keep the information from us,

he didn't know what they
were hiding and that

he had the information, but he
was ordered by the US Marshals

and the JP's (?) not to
release any information to me.

While Americans were watching the events
unfold at the front of the building,

the FBI's infrared video shows what
took place at the rear of the structure.

What a FLIR really does is
it takes invisible radiation,

which is called infrared radiation,

and it converts it into visual
radiation, you might say,

that we can see with the eye.

What we have here is a tank
infantry type of an operation.

As the tank moves forward,

two men have dropped
out of the escape hatch,

they roll over and,
as they roll over,

they open up with
automatic gunfire.

We've measured the actual
time of the individual flashes

and they occur at a
fraction of a second,

in some cases,
a thirtieth of a second.

There is absolutely
nothing in nature

that can cause thermal flashes to
occur in a thirtieth of a second.

Somebody related or who had
prepared a film or analyzed a film,

representatives of the department
and representatives of the FBI

went over it in detail and
concluded that there was no basis

for suggesting that
shots had been fired.

As the tank crushes the
roof of the gymnasium,

gunfire can be seen streaming
into the dining room

from positions in the courtyard.

I stopped counting after
about 62 individual shots.

Interviewed on NBC's Meet the Press,
on may the 4th, 1997,

FBI director,
Louis Freeh, stated that:

"No shots were fired by any federal
agents outside of the compound."

And that:
"Allegations raised about gunfire

seem to be based on some inferences
from infra-ray flash patterns

and heat patterns.
I think the overwhelming evidence

clearly shows that
no shots were fired."

It's indicative of sunlight
reflecting off something

and registering on the FLIR,
it could be a thermal pattern.

If it were a thermal pattern, there
is nothing that persists from that.

So, therefore,
it is more likely to have been

reflected light off
of something shiny,

in which the sunlight now it gives
an apparent temperature rise.

From the basic physics, it's
safe to say that it's impossible

for the Waco FLIR to detect any
solar reflections of any kind.

On our wish list as investigators
was taking a harder look at the FLIR.

The congressional staff
was never able to find

or take advantage of
a genuine FLIR expert

to watch the FLIR video with us

and to understand exactly
what we were seeing.

By comparison, this Department
of Defense FLIR video,

taken in Somalia in October of 1993,
as troops exit a helicopter,

shows gunfire similar
to the thermal signature

on the FLIR videotape at Waco.

A former analyst from the US
intelligence community, Maurice Cox,

tested the FBI's claim applying
the principles of solar geometry.

For an aircraft flying at
an altitude of 9,000 feet,

a flash anomaly occurring on
the ground would be visible

in an area only 100 feet wide.

Frame-by-frame measurements of the
FLIR videotape showed a repetition

of 10 flashes per second, the
same rate as a machinegun firing

at 600 rounds per minute.

According to the sun
light reflections report,

in order to duplicate
these multiple flashes,

the reflective surfaces would have
to be exactly the same shape and size

and positioned in an array too
precise to occur by chance.

To record sunlight reflections
at ten flashes per second,

the FBI small aircraft would
have had to travel at Mach 1.8,

nearly twice the speed of sound.

The sun reflection report
concluded that the flash signatures

on the Waco FLIR video could
only have been caused by gunfire.

In January, 1999, Mr. Cox challenged
director Freeh and Bureau scientists

to disprove his findings.
They did not respond.

If someone comes to me
to understand that data,

I need to tell them the
uncertainty associated with it.

If the government is only telling them:
"this was not a field of fire."

Well, the government is
refusing to look at this and

anybody with their plain eyes could see,
well, something's going on there.

You know, when you think of
the fact they're shooting

automatic weapons fire into a
building with children in it,

there's something wrong.

Dr. Allard has stated that this
video shows gunfire being directed

into Mount Carmel from the outside
of Mount Carmel on April 19th.

The only people that could have come
from would have been federal agents.

Other flashes can be detected on the
FLIR tape within an hour of the fire,

such as this detonation
in the courtyard,

which has a thermal
signature that is consistent

with a hand grenade exploding.

And more gunfire can
be seen near this tank.

But if the FBI's claim is true
and the hostage rescue team

didn't fire at Branch Davidians,
then there is another possibility.

According to what we saw
written in The Book of Nahum,

we were to undergo an
military-style attack,

we were to be attacked by tanks
and people from the military.

On the use of military
personnel and heavy equipment

against U.S. citizens,
other questions linger:

how much was used and why?

There was concern expressed
that the FBI had only

one hostage rescue team
and they were tyring.

Do you recall that
conversation in that meeting?

I recall, I believe I asked
for that meeting, yes.

On April 14th,
just five days before the fire,

a meeting was held between
Attorney General Janet Reno,

the FBI Command team and
Special Forces commanders,

Brigadier General
Peter J. Schoomaker

and Colonel Gerald Boykin,
of Delta Force.

The purpose of this meeting
was to convince Reno

to authorize a final
assault at Waco.

Military is trained to find,
fix and destroy the enemy.

You don't worry about warning your
military enemy of constitutional rights.

What is generally known or
known in public as Delta Force

is in reality called
Combat Applications Group.

So, anybody who asks about Delta
will get told with a straight face

by the army that no such
organization exists.

What organization does exist
is Combat Applications Group

and their stated mission is to
perform counterterrorism operations

overseas in defense of US interest. (?)

Earlier, in an opening
I gave this morning,

with regard to the
Posse Comitatus Act...

Just to refresh my colleagues' memory,
the Posse Comitatus statute

is a criminal statute that
states that it's a crime

to use any part of the army or air
force to enforce the laws of the land,

unless authorized by
Congress or the Constitution.

There is, in my judgment,
it is absolutely clear that no law

was violated, no action
was taken that comes close

to violating Posse
Comitatus or any other law.

General Huffman, is that your...
do you agree with that?

Congressman, so far as the
Army's involvement in this,

I would say that is correct.

The question is: are we getting
any help from the military?

The question is: are we getting help
from the Delta team? And we're not.

In mid March, 1993, I attended
a senior executive staff meeting

at CIA headquarters and it
involved senior agency management,

along with the liaison
officers from the US military,

in particular, from Delta Group.

The briefing centered on Delta's
operations in Waco, Texas.

This previously classified military
document confirms the presence

of Delta Force at Mount Carmel. With
approval of the Joint Chiefs of Staff,

an observer was deployed to
the scene on March 21st, 1993,

accompanied by three other operators
also characterized as "observers".

One particular soldier was questioned
by a member of the hearing

and pressed and pressed,
he did not wanna reveal

even the existence of Delta Force

and finally had to admit
that they were present.

Originally, I was told that there
was just going to be one or two

Delta personnel there as observers,
but during the briefing,

it was mentioned that there was over
10 Delta operators at Waco, Texas

and they were not there
merely as observers,

but would be participating
in any type of

operational or tactical effort
against the Branch Davidians.

My understanding is that, in some way,
the US military Delta Force

were advising the hostage rescue
team from inside the tanks

or inside the Brady fighting vehicles
or were present at the sniper posts

to provide support or assistance.
And those types of activities,

to me, would mean for deployed,
they were not

back at a conference room or
table giving advice or saying,

you ought to think about this,
you... They were out there

a working shoulders (?)
soldier with the HRT.

Approximately,
a year after the Waco incident,

I was deployed overseas in
Europe and I had the chance to

meet some of the Delta operators that
I had been on previous assignments.

They told me on several
different occasions

during my meetings with
them in Europe that,

not only were they forwardly
deployed at Waco, Texas,

but they were actually involved in a
gunfight with the Branch Davidians.

When you see the individuals
roll out from the tank,

then come around the sides and
start shooting into the building,

what they're doing,
they're defending the vehicle.

If HRT or Command Applications Group,
whoever was pulling the triggers,

expected resistance,
expected shots to be fired,

then their moves, on April 19th,
made tactical sense.

But I did talk to some Combat
Applications Group guys

and they did confirm that yes,

portions of B squadron were
there pulling triggers.

There's no doubt in my mind
that the flashes on FLIR tape

was fire from us and the automatic,
automatic weapon fire

being returned into the building.
I mean,

it's inconsistent to
even think otherwise.

There were people there on the
ground with automatic weapons

and flashes such as that only come
from one thing and it comes from

rifle barrels that are firing
back into the building.

Their operators had penetrated
the buildings on several occasions

planting surveillance devices,
listening devices, sensors...

And on one occasion, I believe it was
April 17th, late 17th, early 18th,

Koresh was actually within six
feet of one of the operators

and they radioed back to the
Tactical Operations Center

for permission to grab him.

Within minutes, the word came
back from Justice Department:

No, we already have a plan in place.
That plan, of course,

being what happened on April 19th.

To me, that would be
an offensive gesture.

When you enter someone's home,
that's pretty offensive and

I would personally have
a problem with that,

I think that it violates
everything that I've been taught,

that you don't use the military against
civilian personnel in this country.

What about early reports that
the military Delta Force may

have been involved,
in one way or another?

Will you make an inquiry
into that as well?

We will pursue any issue
that is in question.

I will not let this
become a show trial,

with law enforcement
as the defendant.

These Waco hearings must not
degenerate into a kangaroo court.

It is unfair for us today to look
at what law enforcement did at Waco

in a vacuum. And it is
unfair to twist the facts,

making law enforcement the villain

and David Koresh,
the law breaker, the victim.

David Koresh, you may not
think he was innocent.

The mothers and the
fathers of the children,

you may not think were innocent,

but those 17 children that
died here were truly innocent.

We had heard, during the meeting,

various scenarios that they were
going to use down in Waco, Texas,

to try to bring a speedy
recovery or a speedy end to

what was taking place down there.
And, at that time,

gas was talked about...

A couple other situations, non-lethal
situations, were talked about

and the primary concern
around the table was

a lot of the people,
a lot of the Branch Davidians

that were inside the
building were willing or

did not want to end their
lives in such a fashion,

especially the 17 children
that were down there.

- Where does God sit?
- On the throne.

On the throne? ???. Point.
Where does God live?

He's gonna save you? How come?

Well, people ask why we
didn't let the children out.

If they saw all that was happening

and they were in there
with their children,

would they have sent them
out to the animals outside

that was shooting at them and
doing all those terrible things?

No.

Federal law enforcement
officers, obviously,

did make some tactical errors prior
to and during this tragic incident

and I hope this body, somebody,
holds them accountable.

Please, I'm pleading with you.
Somebody out there

in the federal government still
screwed up big-time, okay,

but they didn't start this fire.

Based upon the ATF's
arson investigation,

accelerants were used at all
points of origin of the fire.

There is no disagreement between us

that this fire was intentionally
started inside the compound

by the people in there using
flammable liquids as accelerants.

I don't know who it was,

but he was pouring this
liquid on the floor

and ??? was saying: don't pour
it inside, pour it outside.

Is there a way to
spread fuel in there?

Well, that's the fuel.
We should get more hay in here.

It was clear to us,
from listening to those tapes,

that the government was
going to be able to prove

that the Davidians, at least
some of the Davidians, had a plan

and that some of the Davidians
were aware of this plan.

I'm sure that the FBI down
there had a lot of fiber optics,

audio and visual equipment
installed in the building there.

I'm sure they knew exactly what
the Branch Davidians plans were,

what their intentions
were if there was

an attack against the building,
such as a gas attack like that.

If they believed we were gonna
try to enter the compound and

the way the overhear sounded,
like, there was one comment:

we're gonna wait until they
come in before we light this.

Why in the world would the FBI make
the assault knowing that information?

It borderlines on criminal misconduct
for the FBI to make that assault

when they knew that he was
gonna respond like that,

particularly on the most
windy day of the year.

The FBI claimed that it never
used pyrotechnic CS rounds,

munitions capable
of starting a fire.

However, in this footage
made prior to the fire,

two agents are seen firing projectiles
from an M79 grenade launcher

into the storm shelter at the
north end of the building.

Seconds later, white smoke
pours from the shelter.

According to CS expert,
Colonel Rex Applegate,

any tear gas that creates smoke
is considered pyrotechnic.

There's been some unfortunate
reporting talking about that

if tear gas were utilized, it would
deprive the children of oxygen

and it perhaps could be fatal.
What they were describing

is not the type of tear gas that
we were... that we are using.

We're using a non
pyrotechnic type of tear gas,

which does not deprive them of oxygen,
so it is not a lethal type gas.

This is the US military
Mark 651 CS projectile,

recovered in the aftermath
of the Mount Carmel fire.

It is pyrotechnic and has a
burning time of 25 to 30 seconds.

It generates a distinctive
cloud of white smoke.

I am very, very troubled by the
information I received this week,

suggesting that pyrotechnic
devices may have been used

in the early morning hours on
April the 19th, 1993, at Waco.

At this time, all available
indications are that the devices

were not directed at the
main wooden compound,

were discharged several
hours before the fire started

and were not the cause of the fire.

In the fall of 1998,

unprecedented access to the Waco
evidence lockers was granted.

The pyrotechnic projectiles
identified in the crime-scene photos

were missing from
the evidence boxes.

However, two additional 40
millimeter munitions were found.

These devices are identified by
the manufacturer's literature

as pyrotechnic rounds.

They were found in the
rubble behind the compound.

These munitions were examined
and the preliminary results

indicated these devices may have
passed through the wood structure.

I mean,
are you embarassed by this all...

I mean, you guys have had
the evidence for six years

and the Texas Rangers and a
documentary film maker comes in...

I don't know how long this guy
has been working on the film,

but... probably a few months,
maybe a year and they come in

and discover evidence that the
FBI should have discovered...

six years after a massive investigation
and massive media coverage.

I'm not embarrassed,
I'm very, very upset.

The arson report fails to
identify the specific instruments

used to ignite the fires or the
individuals that might have used

those instruments.
As a result, no arson charges

were ever filed against any
of the Branch Davidians.

What he's not covered
in the arson report

is the presence of the government's
own pyrotechnic devices

at the points of origin of the fire.
This flashbang device, for example,

was found in the rubble
of the dining room.

The flash that results as
the detonation of this charge

can cause a fire in any area where
there is a high concentration

of volatile vapors.

In the evidence locker, there are
six pyrotechnic flashbang grenades

mislabeled as
silencers or gun parts.

According to the Texas
Department of Public Safety,

they were found in the southwest
corner of the building,

the dining-room and the chapel,
all three points of origin of the fire.

Now, maybe the government, the FBI,
the ATF did some wrong things,

but they didn't light the fire,
they didn't start the fire,

that is not one of these
questions that is very debatable.

There are times when
you cannot keep your job

and put alternative explanations
for data on the table.

Any of us can think about, yeah,
we'll stay in a building burn up.

I don't think many
people would do it

and I don't understand
why they didn't come out.

At 12:10 p.m., the FLIR
videotape shows at least

two automatic weapons being fired into
the back of the burning dining room,

the only undamaged
exit from the building.

And what we have is we have then (?)
firing automatic weapons

and they're firing into
the burning building.

And like some sort
of a cowboy movie,

they're retreating down the building
and firing as they're retreating.

I cannot remember
something more sickening

that I had to do to witness this.

According to the Justice
Department report,

at least 15 people were found
shot to death at this location.

The FBI conducted ballistic tests
which the Justice Department

later termed: inconclusive
and rudimentary, at best.

Whether or not you argue that
some people committed suicide,

yes, that may be, but I would
say the majority of the people,

the bodies that I saw were
clear-cut homicide victims.

When there were shooting
going on and things like that,

it's kind of tongue-in-cheek
to then turn around and say:

why didn't you come out?

As a peace officer,
you're trained that killing people

and taking someone's life
is the absolute last thing

that you ever want to do, period.
You signed on to help people,

you didn't sign on to kill them.

If the opinion is rendered
that there was no shots fired

from any other location other
than from within the building,

i.e., meaning the Branch
Davidians shot themselves

through suicide or homicide,
then the government

is left with a position that we are
not going to do ballistics tests

on anyone's weapons,
whether they be Bureau officials

or other officials that
might have been on the scene.

The forensic evidence on the bodies
themselves is very troubling.

The bodies were preserved in
a frozen or near frozen state

inside two trailers for
the purpose of examination.

For some reason, those trailers,
who were under the control of the FBI,

were allowed to not have any
electricity running to them

and the bodies
deteriorated beyond which

any sort of forensic
evidence could be gathered.

And we were very,
very troubled by that.

The crime scene was declared
a biohazard and, since the FBI

predetermined that this
was a mass suicide,

the crime scene investigators
were instructed to sift,

wash and bleach the evidence
associated with the bodies,

destroying much of
its evidentiary value.

Grinding up all the crime scene.
And I'm saying to myself:

what the hell are they
doing that for, except for

they conveniently trying
to cover up something that

they don't want the public to know?

During the siege, some of the
women and all of the children

were sent to the bunker located
in the center of the compound.

The bunker was an old
church records vault

which had survived a fire
several years before.

It is here that the remains
of some of the women

and the young children were found.

Based upon the fact that the
majority of the women and children

protected themselves by
dousing themselves with water

and blankets, trying to
keep the smoke to a minimum,

trying to prolong themselves or life
in a nearly fireproof container,

clearly demonstrates that they
weren't embracing the flame,

that they were trying
to flee the flame.

According to their autopsy reports,

some of the children were
still alive during the fire.

But based upon the
condition of their bodies,

there was evidence of
a deadly explosion.

I read that the FBI, on foot, entered
the building, shot the Davidians

and planted an explosive device
on top of the church vault,

that he called it.
We referred to it as the bunker,

because it's a concrete cinder
block. That's another theory

that did not, could not
have possibly happened

in this this particular incident.
Referring to that explosion,

the explosion happened well after
the building was totally destroyed.

It was very unlikely that that
explosion was anything other than

a propane cylinder.

The fireball was created
by a ruptured propane tank

on the ground adjacent
to the bunker,

but a large hole in the roof
of the bunker has never had

an official acknowledgment
or explanation.

What it tells me is that you had a
demolition charge went off on the roof.

General Ben Parton, a former
military explosive expert,

testified that there
were two explosions.

This footage shows the detonation of
a high explosive device on the bunker,

which appears to ignite gas
from a ruptured propane tank.

After completion of the FBI and
Texas Rangers investigation,

the bunker was bulldozed into rubble.
Six years later, in 1999,

permission was granted to test
the residue from the blends (?).

Strangely, however,
that portion of the bunker

was not found after a
thorough search of the rubble.

- That's a child's. I mean,
that's just too sick (?).
- ??? a one-year-old.

Yeah. See this? Boom, you know.

According to the FBI
and ATF investigation,

the Branch Davidians did possess some
low-order explosives, like gunpowder,

but this would not be capable of
penetrating six to eight inches

of steel reinforced concrete, like
a high order explosives, such as TNT.

The blast hole at
the top of the roof,

you can plainly see
the rebar is bent in.

The damage to the stainless
steel refrigerator, which

appears to have been
under the blast holes,

is consistent with
a shaped charge...

and the blast being directed
downward into the room,

this enclosed concrete room,
would very likely cause some

seam rupture and create a huge
overpressure inside the room

that would pretty much
kill everybody in there.

Anybody who was under this
device when it was blown

would have been horribly mangled,
probably dismembered,

pretty much like being
thrown into a grain thresher.

Having examined still photographs
and videotapes of the bunker,

it was apparent to me that this
was caused by a shaped charge,

but what bothers me is who would have
the audacity to use such a charge.

Rather than risk your
own people going in there

and trying to shoot
it out with them,

that's a standard
tactic in city fighting,

in military operations
to build-up terrain

to use explosives in this manner to

kill people in the targeted room
that you're going to attack.

The military's advice to the FBI

was that it should
focus on the leadership

and capture or kill David Koresh.

It was to our benefit that
we were able to prevent him

from carrying out the
second part of his prophecy

and that is that he
intended to kill as many

members of law enforcement as he
could before his members were killed.

It was to our benefit and we're
most fortunate the number of our...

none of our people were injured.

What was very obvious
that the effort

that was demonstrated there assured
that there would be no survivors

in the church records vault.

Was the Attorney General pressured
by the White House to end the siege?

What were the roles of Webster
Hubbell and Vince Foster?

Who actually made the
decision to use CS gas

with 22 children inside
the Davidian compound?

After two years, why is
there still no clear answer?

Rangers had difficulties
working with the FBI.

They had a major responsibility,
we had our responsibilities

and they seemed not
to go hand-in-hand.

And as I recall, I testified
for Congress about having a name

in the White House I could
have called to solicit

the support of the federal
authorities in our objective.

And it turned out
to be Vince Foster.

Mr. Hubbell, do you recall
a meeting on or about

the 14th or 15th of April that
you attended with Vince Foster,

with Mr. Nussbaum and,
I guess, some others,

in which was really a
turning point? Did you

or others at that
meeting recommend or

was there any discussion about the
use of military force or equipment?

There was not any discussion
about use of military force.

There was discussion of having the
military evaluate the FBI's plan.

The briefings by General Schoomaker
and Colonel Boykin of Delta Force

gave Attorney General Janet
Reno the assurances she needed

to okay the FBI assault plan.

Presidential Counsel Vince Foster
was the White House's point man

for the Waco affair. 90 days
later, Foster commits suicide.

He had a lot of things
on his plate at the time,

the ??? office being one,
but nobody was killed in that one.

What I think was really
on his mind was Waco.

I, to this day, I don't understand
what he meant by: the FBI lied to me.

Mrs. Foster said that her husband
was depressed about a number of

matters and she ranked the
Waco tragedy very high,

as any of us would, who are
responsible for such an activity

that resulted in such a tragedy.

In this FBI 302 report, Mrs.
Foster indicates that her husband

was troubled by the deaths
of the children at Waco

and believed that
everything was his fault.

When you are troubled by something

and you feel responsible
for something,

you can only feel
responsible for it

if you could have done
something about it.

Perhaps, Mr. Foster felt that he
could have done something about Waco,

whether he tried to intervene,
whether he was overruled.

The extensive use of
governmental privileges

against grand jury and
criminal investigations

has, of course, been a pattern
through this administration.

Most notably, the White
House cited privilege in 1993

to prevent Justice Department
and Park Police officials

from reviewing documents
in Vincent Foster's office

in the days after his tragic death.

The day after Vince Foster died,

I got a phone call from a fella
who used to be on my squad,

who told me that they,
not explaining who they were,

but they had agreed that the
FBI was gonna come over and

do a regular crime scene search
of Vince Foster's office.

During the Whitewater
investigation,

Deborah Gorham testified
she saw a Waco file

in the security file cabinet,
next to Mr. Foster's desk.

In addition, Michael Chertoff,
Counsel for the Senate committee,

inquired about a letter by
Vince Foster involving Waco.

Neither was ever recovered during
or after the crime scene search

and their whereabouts
are still unknown.

However, White House Secret
Service agent, Harry O'Neill,

testified that Maggie Williams
was seen removing files

from Foster's office
the night of his death.

Thomas Casselton, an intern
and Mr. Foster's assistant,

testified that he had also
removed a box of files.

Just to let you know where we
are in the state of the record,

we have received evidence that,
in fact, the box was

in Mr. Foster's office. Did you
understand the box you were taking up

was a box of files that
originated in Mr. Foster's office?

- I did understand that, sir.
- You heard that from Maggie Williams?

- Yes.
- And, in fact, it was Maggie Williams,

the chief of staff
to the first lady

that you accompanied in taking this
box up to the residence, right?

That's right.

What were you told by
Maggie Williams about

why the box was being
taken up to the residence?

I was told that the contents of
the box needed to be reviewed.

- Reviewed by whom?
- By the first lady.

Maggie Williams was Mrs.
Clinton's chief of staff.

Maggie Williams took out...
you can't call anything else

but what it is, it was evidence.

One of the interesting things
that happens in an investigation

is you begin to get
anonymous phone calls

and we, in fact, received
anonymous phone calls from

Justice Department managers
and attorneys who believe that

pressure was placed on Janet Reno,
a ???

and pressure that came from the
First Lady of the United States.

Now, we believe that, because
the military was present at Waco

in some capacity, that the
president may have made a decision

to allow that to happen, following
some sort of a legal protocol,

where he says: this is of such a serious
nature, they need to be involved.

And we asked for those documents

and asked to see National
Security Council documents

and we're not provided
with any information that

enabled us to reach a conclusion.

It's a serious allegation that
the president interfered with,

changed, moved up the
decision and we can't just

bandy these things around unless
we have some real evidence.

If Combat Applications Group
was on the ground that day,

actually pulling triggers,
the origin of that operation

would have come directly
from the White House,

it would have come from
the president, because

Combat Applications Group is,
for all intents and purposes,

the president's private army.

It was discussed at the
meeting that the senior levels

of the Clinton administration had
authorized Delta to be deployed

to Waco, Texas and not just two
or three people deployed there,

but enough people there
to get the job done.

As we come to an end,
all of us are looking for anything

that happened in these hearings
after eight days and nights to

indicate not that General Reno
had something to do with this,

but now the president. Well,
after we've exhausted that bit,

the only one left that I
can think of is the butler,

maybe the butler did it.
I'm surprised

you hadn't tried to
subpoena the butler by now.

Our disappointment could
not have been greater,

as professionals and as humans,
who care about the plight of others

when the investigation was
terminated by Congress.

As I count up the deaths here,
86...

And then, if you wanna make
the leap that Oklahoma City

has some connection because it was
done on the anniversary of Waco,

that's another 160, give or take,
so you're talking 246 lives and

for this Congress to try to oversee

what in the hell happened and how
did it happen, it just seems to

be talking about the butler did it,
a little capricious,

a little frivolous and
that's just my opinion.

I yield my time to Mr. McCullum.

It was a (?) struggle we've had.
I was Attorney General

when the Freedom of
Information Act was passed

and the government hated the
Freedom of Information Act,

they hated me for pressing for it,
because they

don't wanna be questioned
about what they do,

they don't want have to
explain what they do and, yet,

if you wanna be a free society,
if you wanna have justice,

if you wanna avoid a police state,

you better know what
your government does,

you better insist upon a right to
know what your government does.

Even though you have a 20
million dollar investigation,

you don't have 20
million-dollar answers.

There's nothing about
Waco I feel good about,

but imagine seeing small
children... disarticulated

with bullets and debris and
having to pick up their body

and their head comes
off in your left hand

and their body comes apart
in your right hand...

I mean, that leaves a horrible,
absolutely indelible,

edged in your brain...
memory of a tragedy.

The prosecutors, during our trial,
tried to prove conspiracy and murder

and all 11 defendants were
found by a jury to be not guilty

of those two charges and I think that,
to me, is, for the president

and for any media or
anybody in this committee

to continue to refer to us as
murderers, I feel that's unjust.

The government cannot be proud about
what they did on February the 28th,

they cannot be proud about
what they did on April the 19th

and they certainly can't be happy about
what this jury said to them today.

We found all of the defendants not
guilty of conspiracy to commit murder

and of murder. In essence,
there was no way we could say

that they did not use firearms.

I think the jury totally
rejected the scary idea

that came out in final argument

that someone who would
study a certain religion,

by virtue of the way he thinks,
would be guilty of a conspiracy

to murder federal agents.
That, I think, is one clear message

that came out of this trial.

But we came to realize,
too late to correct,

was that we could not have found
them guilty of using firearms

without having them
found them guilty of

either conspiracy
to murder or murder.

Those two charges
were tied together.

When the judge looked at
the jury's verdict, he said:

"This finding of guilty to commission
of a federal offense is inconsistent.

I'll throw it out."

But then he changed his mind.
And when it came to sentencing,

he stood the jury's verdict on his head.
He said in his sentencing speech

that, since they were
guilty of using a weapon

and the commission
of a federal offense,

he would find that the
federal offense was murder

and conspiracy to commit murder.

He went further on to say: "You
murdered not only the ATF agents,

but your own co-religionists.

Federal sentencing
guidelines allow judge Smith

to choose the sentence of
between five and forty years.

He gave all but two defendants

the maximum sentence of 40
years in federal prison.

I knew what was gonna happen, I
knew what the agents were gonna say,

what they're gonna blame myself
and others in there for, but...

you know, just... something
I had to go through.

I'm a school teacher and it's,
you know,

a good opportunity for me
to get away from the kids

and forget about all
about them for a while and

just come and relax for a while.

Paul Fatta was not at the initial
February 28 shootout with the ATF,

but was charged with
aiding and abetting

and was also given a maximum
sentence of 15 years.

I don't like being in prison, you
know, I don't like this situation.

It's a futile experience.
I don't understand it. I don't

think it's making me a
better person or it's... But

I believe it's all for a reason.
The system had every opportunity

to be fair and honest and
truthful and treat us properly.

And they chose not to,
they chose to lie, to deceive

and to cover up, to cover their
positions or their retirement

or their whatever it may be and...

that's something they gotta deal with,
they gotta look at themselves

in the mirror every
morning and say that, hey,

I made decisions that ended up
costing a lot of people their lives.

I wanna state that Branch
Davidians are not anti-government,

we're not anti law
enforcement and I'm sorry that

there are four agents that are dead
and there are a lot that are wounded,

that we lost 85....
friends and family too

and it was unnecessary.

I hear a lot of people saying that,
you know, that they hope

this will never happen
again what happened to us.

I believe that what happened
to us was just the beginning.

Many of us had a heartfelt concern
for individuals that chose to

a particular lifestyle that was a
little bit of an off-brand lifestyle

and who were cavalierly
thought of as unimportant

and thought of as people
who simply committed suicide

or simply burned themselves up.

And that claim being so
widely held by everything

is also the type of thing
that the investigator

wants to get in under
and really find out

if there's another
side of the story.

They were my life, they meant
everything to me and they still do.

Now, I thank God for the hope,
but one day and I hope it's soon,

that I'll be able to put my arms
around them and play with them again

and take care of them, God willing.

We cannot put this
government in the seat of God

and go along with this
government and say, look,

you can take life
anytime you well please,

just like you did right
before our very eyes.

We had a play-by-play,
just like it was a football game,

but you can't do this.

You know, I think the media needs
to be the watchdog for the people.

I mean, that's why it's the
First Amendment, not the Second,

not the 16th,
it's the First Amendment.

Somebody way back when
thought it was very important

that the media be the watchdog.
I mean, in this system

of checks and balances.
And, in this instance, it was asleep.

If we choose to learn
from our mistakes,

it is from admitting our errors
that we come closer to understanding

how we might prevent tragedies like
these from happening in the future.

Those who cannot admit
their mistakes, well...

all we can do is offer our prayers.

Our government isn't a perfect one,
compromised of imperfect people,

it can only be as good
as we choose to make it.

We have come too far
to quit or to coast,

we must continue to make
it better, but we must not

allow ourselves become bitter,
only better.

Perhaps, the greatest
lesson to be learned

is often the most difficult to
remember until it's too late,

that is, life is very precious,
it happens in moments,

not seconds, not minutes,
not hours, but in moments.

And let us forgive,
but let us never forget,

as we move from ashes
to understanding.

As the result of evidence uncovered
by the making of this documentary,

both the U.S. Senate and
the House of Representatives

have opened new investigations
which are expected

to result in full
Congressional hearings.

In addition,
U.S. Attorney General, Janet Reno,

has appointed former
Senator John Danforth

to conduct a full and
independent ivestigation

to determine the facts
behind the Waco tragedy.

subtitles by:
Tio Beto from Brazil