The Way of the Dream: Marie-Louise von Franz in Conversation with Fraser Boa (2008) - full transcript

we all dream every night four or five times

our dreams fascinate and intrigue us

but most of them are forgotten

and the few we do remember
seem strange and confusing

welcome to the way of the dream

I'm sure that you have
a special interest in dreams

a special interest perhaps

in carl jung's and marie-louise 
von franz's understanding of dreams

if that is so we are setting off on a journey
that you will never forget

we are going to move into a realm

that I have known for many many years



watching these episodes I 
find myself repeatedly thinking

that's it I got it
I finally got what that dream is about

some light is shining deep

into some dark corner of my unconscious

and after 20 years I am ready to hear it

body mind and soul

that is the experience that you are going to find

as you listen where you are in your journey

will determine what is challenging you most

some people think that dreams are a pile of images

bizarre images

other people find the images numinous

divinely enshrouded

they want to put them into 
music or poetry or dance



and others spend a half an hour 
a day with their dream journal

trying to understand what the unconscious 
is telling them about consciousness

they may believe that there is 
a spiritual guide in the dreams

because the dreams are the language of the soul

the symbol is carrying a spiritual 
message in the sensual imagery

if we believe that then the 
dream becomes the water of life

which is what jung called it

without that nurturing

we are in a desert without water

we are like t s eliot's people in the wasteland

headpieces stuffed with straw

the unconscious unable to contact consciousness

and now we're ready to head for dreamland

I very much regret to say
that I hardly ever have any dreams

would you tell us a dream
I honestly don't remember any

I don't dream

never no no but I don't remember them anyway

there's no such thing

no no
I couldn't tell you much about dreams

they're a mystery to me

oh no I can't tell anybody 
are you in trouble freak out

isn't that funny because I've just been reading

about the times there

but what the load of rubbish

the funny things they say about you having dreams

I'll usually forget them
I don't go to bed every night

thinking I can have a dream tonight

good evening

well actually I'm having a good one in years

dreams have no dream guys

you dream about a broad

you're not going to get a wet dream

I don't dream yes yes

my dreams oh my god

they are important

yes I think so

why are they important

I think you know sometimes you think
about the different things during the day

and so I think it doesn't come up

so it's very good when it

when it does come out during night

for my experience sometimes

dreams can be just a result of 
having had too much for dinner

well there must be some reason for them

I don't know what they do

I have dreams every night

I dream every night but I don't know what

I can't associate any significance with them

uh sometimes remember frightening ones

when you're being chased or something like that
I used to have nightmares when I was small

but not anymore
I mean they're just sort of no visions

sometimes when I'm very ill
I get peculiarly baroque dreams

or sort of gothic horror stories

they're normally quite frightening

but after a while I got so used to them

they don't worry me anymore
I guess the ones that stand out the most

and I might know the bad dreams

no I don't have any

do you think they're important

no I don't think so no no

thank you

well I thought about them
I read a lot about them

I consider they're just arbitrary

they have absolutely no meaning

they're just caused by things 
that have occurred to you

in the past few weeks from your distant past
I guess I'm getting past dreams

they're amusing to think of

but I wouldn't place any 
great significance on them

anybody that's figured out 
what exactly they might mean

but they probably mean something

do you think they're important
I don't know it said they are

but whether they are or not I wouldn’t like to say

do you remember any
I can't say I do offhand

you guys got to be crazy

why would anybody be doing a documentary on dreams

I can't put any significance in with them

dr marie-louise von franz is 
an analytical psychologist

who worked directly with cg jung for over 30 years

here in this consulting room

people from all over the world have 
brought her dreams to be analyzed

and for the series we film 
people telling their dreams

dr von franz will interpret these dreams

in relation to the lives 
of the individual dreamers

dr von franz how long have 
you been studying dreams

well I think about now 30 years approximately
I have figured out

that I have interpreted approximately 
something like 65 000 dreams

that's a minimum

and probably you've asked yourself a question

that so often puzzled me

when I go to sleep I enter a void I don't exist

and when I dream some power takes me over

and makes me undergo some experience

that I don't initiate myself

what's the power who makes up the dreams

that is the most mysterious thing of all

who makes the dreams

there are still a naive 
prejudice among many people

that dreams are our express our own wishes

our own schemes

our plots

but the longer one looks at them

the more one sees that cannot be true

too many dreams represent what we hate hearing

I don't
I had nightmares

not dreams nightmares

one time I come out of the
I get out of bed about two feet

I landed on my butt on the floor

I had I always had this one 
recurring dream when I was little

yeah it's a dream

that I got rolled up in a window shade

and my head's sticking out one end

it's not funny my feet are out the other end

and it's falling and falling and falling

and I can't scream
I have no voice and right as I'm almost

I almost hit the floor
I wake up

the basis from which dreams originate

seem to be rather

let's call it with the vague expression

nature

nature itself

it's a natural phenomenon

we take dream like being like a tree

or a wild pig or something

we cannot say what makes a wild pig

well we if we believe in god

then we'll say god makes the wild pigs

but about that it is that unknown power

or mysterious force

which makes all existence

the best perhaps is to call it

with the vague expression

the godhead or nature

which in such a vague sense

that we don't pin it down to anything special

because we just don't know

the only thing by observing dreams for a long time

is that we see it has a 
superior intelligence in it

perhaps you have seen that in some of the dreams

the wisdom and the intelligence

and the guiding cleverness

in which with which dreams lead us

they show us where we are wrong

they show us where we are unadapted

they warn us from danger

they predict some future events in our life

they hint at the deeper meaning of our life

they convey to us illuminating insights
I remember the ones that make me most comfortable

I'm sure there's a lot that 
I have that I block out

if you want to remember a dream

you have to write it down 
immediately when you wake up

and they'll tell you a lot 
about how you really feel

I have children

and sometimes I'll dream 
about my kids getting lost

you know

and then I get real frantic in my dreams
I have a bad dream

but then when I try to tell myself

you know
figure out why I had that dream

sometimes it's because I feel guilty

for not spending enough time with them

and they're home supervising themselves

and so it's kind of making me

like my conscience is coming alive

you know make me aware

of what I was subconsciously thinking of

throughout the day

dreams are compensation and I suppose useful

if you can remember them

in finding out what kind of games 
you're playing with yourself

and then you can do something about it

and that's how I see dreams

the dreams cannot prevent us from the vicissitudes

and illness and sad events of human existence

but they seem to be able to give us a guiding line

how to cope with them

and how to find a meaning in our life

and how to fulfill our own destiny

how to follow our own star

to realize our greater potential of life within us

dr von franz how did you first become interested

in the study of dreams

when I met jung first he 
explained something about a case

he had who had a vision

and he interpreted the vision of that woman

and that gave me the shock like realization

that for him inner events like visions or dreams

were the reality

they were the reality as real as the outer

what we call the outer reality

and that was a great revelation

and a great shock to me

and then I went and read the books of jung

and there I saw the importance he gave to dreams

and I felt I could never really judge

if what he was saying was 
true or not right or not right

if I wouldn't go through an analysis myself

so I took my whole courage in my hands

and asked him if I could have an analysis with him

and he agreed to that

and then every dream 
interpretation was a revelation

I have I seem to have according to jung

especially difficult and complicated dreams

so I never understood a word of my own dreams

they were just chinese puzzling nonsense

and I always arrived with that 
chinese puzzling nonsense to jung

and he with a big effort

unfolded the whole meaning of it

sometimes he took a 
handkerchief and wiped his head

and said what would you do
if you had no jung

to get through that complicated dream

and it was always a surprising revelation

and that lasted on as long as I worked with him

later when he got old
I didn't tell him so many dreams anymore

because I saw that he tired him

dream interpretation is a real physical effort

it's not just a mental exercise

and therefore later I try to cope with it

as well as I could myself

but first to the first years of my analysis

the work mostly consisted in unraveling
those chinese messages of the night

and I always remember going there

in a tense nervous often depressed mood

and always coming back after the hour

with a feeling of ah now 
I know now I see now I see

where the whole thing is going

many of the people we talked to

were interested in their dreams

and would like to know what they mean

but very few go into psychoanalysis

do you feel that dream 
interpretation is so difficult

that it's only accessible to an elite yes
I think it's like with all sciences

it will be only an elite which 
will go into all the intricacies

and the scientific complications 
of the dream interpretation

and its question it's a profession 
and it needs professional skill

and the man in the street cannot pick it up and

and know it as well

but like all sciences too

certain rules of the thumb

certain generalities can be 
spread to the general public

and also I would say

it is already very helpful for people

who don't want to go into analysis

and who don't want to plunge

into that complicated scientific 
dream interpretation problem

to watch their dreams

because among 20 unintelligible dreams

there are always from time 
to time very simple dreams

which everybody can see at once

the unconscious is a great 
among other things a great joker

a great jester and from time to time

he tells people just right out out bang

so that while you write the dream down

you just explode with laughter

and you know what it is

just the other day I was very ill

and revolting against my illness

and I dreamt that I was in a festival

to let old soldiers home from military service

and they handed in their carpenter's tools

and I saw that they were terribly old

they were 100 years old

and somebody said into my ear

yes they have kept those people 
much too long in active service

now you don't need to pay an analyst
to understand that dream

I've at once reduced my work drastically

I was back visiting and 
visiting people in illinois

and you know I was thinking 
about a girlfriend that I had

and that night I was laying in bed
I had a dream and I was on the same beach

I was throwing these rocks in the water

and a hand grabbed me from behind and said

don't ever let go of the things you love

and I was thinking about all the things

how I'd cope with it if I didn't have it

I turned around it was gone
I opened up my hand

and there was a picture of 
my girlfriend in my hand

and that really got me to thinking

that I shouldn't give up on it so quick

and I haven't

so that was about the most influential dream I had

but many of our dreams are not obvious

I've had dreams that I was sure I understood

but after I worked on them
I was shocked to see I tricked myself

that's why one should in general 
not interpret one's own dreams

because the dream

our dreams generally point to our blind spot

and that just they never tell us what we know

they always tell us what we don't know

but people tend when they 
interpret their own dreams

to say yes I know what that means

and then

they project what they know already into the dream

oh that's so my problem sounds so soon

so I have often even patients who do that

they come in and they say I have a dream

but I know what it means

they don't want to hear what I say

they say I know what it means

and then they give a completely banal explanation

of something they know already 
long ago about themselves

and then I always said

wait wait wait wait

let's take the dream as it is 
slowly with beginning to end

and then it always comes out 
quite differently and surprisingly

so to interpret one's own 
dream is very very difficult

that's why jung advised even jungian analysts

to from time to time go to colleagues

and exchange their views of dreams

do not go un... lonely always 
interpreting their own dreams

and jung even himself he 
always complained bitterly

I have no jung to interpret my dreams he said

and so he used his own pupils and told his dreams

because even when you tell it and even 
if the other says something stupid

it might get you get another slant on it

and then you are more objective about it
I always say you can't see your own

everybody can see your back

if you show it to the other person

but you can't see your own back

that's the trouble and the 
dreams point to your own back

to what you don't see

and you have to so to speak stand on your head

to understand your own dreams

that's the great difficulty

and that causes so many errors

because people always say 
oh I know what that means

I had a schizophrenic patient

he came always with a ready-made interpretation

and it was always a complete banal outer nonsense

that's she took it out of such kitchen dream books

oh it means that I'll get some money

or it means I'll get that job

I'll know I won't get that job and so on

the dreams had nothing to do with it

but if it's so beneficial 
to look behind your own back

then why is it

that so many people resist 
taking the dream world seriously

the unconscious itself can devour the human being

the dream world that is 
why the dream world has not

we now are discovering

that the dream world

is the most beneficial thing on earth

and that attending one's dream

is the healthiest thing one can do

but why then has mankind also

always been afraid of the dream world

there is a good reason for is

the dream world can also devour us

by the way of daydreaming

of spinning neurotic fantasies

or by spinning chasing unrealistic ideas

you have only to go into a lunatic asylum

to see the victims of the dream world

one is living in the dream that he is napoleon

sitting for 20 years like that in an asylum

another when you begin to talk to him

tells you confidently that 
he is really jesus christ

but nobody seems to understand him and so on

they have been swallowed by the dream world

and that's why the devouring

when we speak of the devouring unconscious

of the devouring mother

it is that dangerous aspect of the dream world

when the when we

the dream world is only beneficent and healing

if we use

if we have a dialogue with this

but we are in actual life

we must not forget living the actual real life

and the duties of actual real living

must not be neglected

as soon as one begins to neglect outer life

one's own body

eating doing one's ordinary job

and so on

then the dream world becomes dangerous

it can suck us away from reality

and spin us into some neurotic

or even psychotic and unreality

into a fantasy world which has

which is not constructive

so the dream world is only positive

if it is in a living dialogue and in balance

with a lived actually lived life

we've talked about the positive effect of dreams

and their power to transform people's lives

have you had dreams yourself

which changed the course of your life

yes I had many dreams which changed my life

and which I experienced as a great revelation

which changed the course of my life

but I had really only one dream

which I think is the biggest dream of my life

and that dream I dreamed between having met jung

and between having asked him for analysis

when I was still 18 and in the christmas night

I had a big what jung would 
call an archetypal dream

a religious dream

and that I consider still today 
the biggest dream of my life

but it is a very long mythological 
descent in the underworld

and one could sum it up as a descent into hades

in the underworld

and in finding the mystical water of alchemy

and discovering that and coming back with it

a kind of shamanistic journey into the underworld

and into the land of death

and that I consider the biggest dream I ever had

I woke up deeply shaken
I was so shaken that i

couldn't get up for a few hours
I had to stay in bed shivering

till I had the courage to get 
up and put my clothes on again

and I told that dream jung

but he never interpreted it to me

he only said I knew you had 
something to do with alchemy

just when I met you I knew 
that was so and now we see

and so that laid the basis 
of my collaboration with jung

on the symbolism of alchemy

excuse me we're doing a documentary film on dreams

you got to be kidding

no on dreams on dreams yeah what do you 
think about food well I think about dreams

I think they're nice you think you pay 
attention to your own dreams I pay attention to

do you remember any of your dreams

oh sure

why why do I remember

yeah
I don't know why

do you remember that you go to sleep

you wake up do you ever

do can you recall them

what do you mean tell us

oh excuse me you have the usual flying dreams
I suppose for some reason the other

once in a while I find myself 
flying around in an edsel

don't ask me why

you know you makes up an edsel
I can't help it

you guys got to be crazy

why would anybody be doing a documentary on dreams

tell us about the answer

how well does the edsel fly

that's great it's great

the only thing is when you're flying

you have to be sure that you 
keep on thinking about flying

because if you don't the thing comes down

did it never crash on you

oh no just sort of floats down

you know edsels

thanks very much enjoy it gentlemen

you really are crazy

as we continue

you will come to know dr von franz more and more
I would like to introduce her

by quoting one of her pithy remarks

too many people use the tit of compassion

when they should use the sword of discretion

she does say it like it is
I remember talking to her after she did the film

I had been to the opening in boston

and we had difficulty there

because too many people guests in the hotel

the waiters and others were coming in

and just slipping through and 
were fascinated by the film

so there wasn't room for our own audience

and she laughed and laughed and she said

that makes me very happy

I like to think that this 
film will go out to people

who are not aware of their dreams

and do not understand the unconscious
I am honored to introduce this woman

to have you share her wisdom

her sense of humor and her profound humanness
I am honored to bring the way of the dream

with marie-louise von franz

I am also honored to introduce the 
director producer of the film fraser boa

for three years he labored 
to bring the dream to reality

with patience with discretion with commitment

he gradually brought the images to life
I am honored to introduce you to my brother

dreams have been called the 
royal road to the unconscious

we'll be traveling down that royal road

but first we're going to look at a map

cg jung discovered that in 
the apparent chaos of dreams

there are recurring figures and motifs

which he documented and named

these landmarks are easily recognizable

and they act as reference points

and dream interpretation once seen

then dreams begin to make some sense

but there's nothing to interpret

if you haven't got a dream

well I don't have too much experience with dreams

but I guess some people do

you ever have a dream that 
you thought was important

if I did it was forgotten right away

the main thing I remember about them is
I can't really remember them unfortunately

can't recall any that I've had lately

in the moment I can't tell you any dream
I don't remember it in a moment every night

would you tell us a dream

do you recall them do you remember your dreams

no I don't sir I quickly forgot

dr von franz why is it that 
people can't recall their dreams

I think it's because they don't pay attention

uh some people have come to me laughingly

and said you will analyze people with their dreams

don't you well you can't with me

because I never dream and I've just screamed

and said okay let's see they always dreamt

it was just that they didn't pay attention

but the next night they go to bed

and they think wonder if I 
dream or if I don't dream

and already that question 
probably tickles out a dream

and the dream appears

so in fact I have never met 
anybody who didn't dream

except you can say

that in very very heavy 
depressed state of depression

people have a what I call dream constipation

they don't dream much

sometimes they always feel better

as soon as they begin to dream

they are better and sometimes 
in very old people over 80

the dreams get fewer very few dream

and then come up again 
frequently shortly before death

then there generally there is a 
period where people dream again

well now I'll tell you I 
don't have very good memory

now I'm pretty near 90 years old and I just can't
I know I used to dream a lot

but I don't dream anymore

do you remember the dreams you used to have

well not this moment

but maybe after I get walking 
away I'll think of them

what happens when people 
don't remember their dreams

what happens to the energies

what happens to the feelings that aren't expressed

and the potentials that aren't realized

they are the sources of what we call neurosis

neurotic symptoms

the most general neurotic symptom is restlessness

that isn't yet looked at in modern times

because everybody is so restless

it isn't looked at to be a neurosis

to be restless but it is actually

primitive man or the hindu or the chinese

criticize the white race very 
much for being constantly restless

and you can see that those are those energies

which because we are not 
connected with the dream world

with the unconscious we have 
a surplus of bottled up energy

which makes us fuss around all the time

or it can take the form of a 
kind of all-pervading anxiety

a fear that somewhere something dark is lurking

and might happen any minute

and then one is anxious about nothing all the time

that is also an unawareness

that there is bottled up energy in the unconscious

which we do not happen

which we do not integrate in consciousness

irritability aggressiveness over-sexiness

or a feeling of complete meaningless emptiness

all the different symptoms

of different neurotic diseases come from that

so we can say if you are not connected properly

with your own dream life

then you are liable to develop 
some kind of neurotic behavior

in everyday speech we often say

that a person has a complex

power complex inferiority complex mother complex

would you explain the psychological 
meaning of the word complex

well a complex is simply the motor of the psyche

they are like different nuclear centers

which give the drive and the impulse

and the aliveness to the psyche

if we had no complex we would be complexes

we would be dead

you see that at once for instance

you are somewhere and you are terribly bored

and then something touches your complex

and oh you go and you get going

your interest is aroused

that is because a complex has been touched

so the complex are simply the 
energy centers of the psyche

but we generally in colloquial language

we use it only in its negative form

we say somebody has a sex complex

or a money complex or a mother complex

and then it means

that this special theme 
arouses the person negatively

we filmed the dream of a young woman

in which the complex is personified by the father

all the energies of the dream 
focus around this father figure

and she eventually finds him

sitting at the wheel of a car apparently dead
I went out and I noticed in the porch

my father's car was still there

and he was at the wheel

motionless bent forward

as if about to drive

but not moving

and I realized then that he may be dead

and I should call an ambulance

but I looked around the drive

where there was a circular driveway

the driveway was filled with balloons

hundreds and hundreds of white balloons

and the thought came to me then

the foreign ambulance could get to him

every one of those balloons have to be burst

we've said that dreams reveal the unconscious

of an individual

what do you mean by the term unconscious

all that which we know is psychically real

but is not conscious

it's a borderline concept it's not conscious

it's a negative concept

and we use that negative concept

in order to not have a prejudice

because some people call it supraconsciousness

and others would call it the divine sphere

and other would call it the 
existential ground of existence

or you can have thousand names

we prefer the word unconscious

because it says nothing

it just it says only it is not conscious

and it leaves it as a mystery

we don't know what it is

we only know that there are psychic phenomena

which manifest through dreams

or through involuntary gestures

or speech mistakes or hallucinations

or fantasies and which are not conscious

you can't for instance be 
befallen in daytime by a fantasy

and tell it to your analyst

and say it's a completely weird fantasy

it's crazy I don't know what it means

so as you don't know what it means

and you think it's crazy 
it's obviously not conscious

because if it were conscious 
you would know what it means

and you would know to what it refers to

but it has come now

it is psychic it has not happened materially

it has happened as a psychic event

and that's why we call the 
sum of all psychic events

which are not conscious the unconscious

but many people don't realize

that dreams reveal the unconscious

that every element of a dream represents

some aspect of their own personality

if for example a person dreams about wrestling

with a dark stranger

what's difficult to understand is

that the dark stranger represents 
some aspect of themselves

that they're wrestling with

let's look now at what jung called the shadow

when I was younger
I used to get dreams about

when people were chasing me

and I'd be running along

and I couldn't run fast
I was as if I was being pulled back

and you know these people were getting nearer

and it was really frightening

one typical nightmare is

that one is pursued

by some terrible or demonic or unknown power

and one runs and runs for one's life

and knowing all the time in the dream

that finally they will get one and you hide

and you can't hide and they will see you

and you look for another hiding place

and they will discover you again

and you run and run

persecution always means

something wants to come to us

the only way to meet a persecuting demon

is to turn around and to say here I am

what do you want from me

then the nightmarish pursuer 
generally changes face

it simply represents that we have turned away

from some part of our psyche

and therefore it runs after us

it wants to get at us literally and

but we don't want it

the unconscious shows us the face we show it

if we reject something within us

then it becomes destructive to us

and if we don't reject it

that's what I mean by saying

turning around and saying 
what you in a friendly manner

what do you want then you 
suddenly see that it isn't so bad

then you have a chance

that whatever pursues one has 
shows a more amenable face

and that one can make some pact 
with it or some arrangement

yes I had a particular one as a child

where I dreamed I was in a room full of people

who got up and said good night and left me alone

and then some I waited for it

some frightful specter came in through the door

and I had that dream three times running

there was a little tiny window

and in there was the wild woman

and she'd been there since 1928

and she was so wild that she 
couldn't keep still at all

her arms and legs kept moving

and her hair was everywhere

you couldn't see her face at all

somebody else went over to her to talk to her

and she put a knife to their throat
I had a bad dream about somebody

who was vicious to me or was 
going to attack me in my dream

and somebody I knew when I met him on the street

and I wanted to punch him in the mouth

the shadow we is the name we generally use

for persons of the same sex appearing in dreams

which very often have a slight inferior quality

or opposite quality to the ego of the dreamer

the shadow can be our inferior side

our best enemy so to speak

but can also have just be our other side

a beautiful couple of ego and his shadow

are for instance don quijote and sancho pansa

the one being completely crazy and unrealistic

and the other being a body man down to earth

they can't live without each other

sancho is not evil and don 
quijote is not only good

but they are a typical example

of the ego and its shadow in thousand forms

we filmed quite a humorous example

of the interplay between the shadow and the ego

in the dream

the shadow takes the form of a popular rock star

who quite literally hooks the dreamer

in this dream I'm going to a david bowie concert

and I've decided I want to 
meet this man david bowie

and I come into this large like circus tent

that's lit with many different colored lights

and I have a sense of being in 
sort of a tale of the arabian night

the show begins and he comes out

and begins to sing a song of his

which is called move on move on

and throughout this dream

there's this sort of repetitive 
theme of move on move on

and come intermission time the stage is emptied

and a crane comes out and the hook comes down

and grabs me pulls me up brings me over the stage

and drops me onto the stage

and I just feel myself falling 
and falling and falling

and I realized that I messed this thing up

and I wake in an incredible panic r

ealizing that I've I've missed an opportunity

I've missed a chance for something

let's leave the shadow now and move on

to other figures of the unconscious

the women in the dreams of men

and the men and dreams of women

jung says that psychologically speaking

every man has an inner woman

and every woman has an inner man

many people find that a 
difficult concept to understand

well we well know that we are born from genes

and that only the predominance 
of male or female genes

make the gender of a child

and they are even androgynous creatures sometimes

who where the even nature 
can't make up quite their mind

what to produce a man or a woman

and even every man has breasts 
and nipples on the breasts

and so to speak a sketched feminine side

and the woman has a clitoris 
and a sketched masculine side

and the same is true for the psyche

not only our body is predominantly male or female

but having the other element in it

our psyche too is predominantly male or female

but contains the other side

and isn't it interesting

how the feminine side of the man's personality

and his dreams takes just as many forms

as there are women in real life
I think that most of us when we dream

we think of women at that moment in time
I believe I started to stroke her

and I inserted my hand into her 
the lower part of her bikinI

and I was funneling her and stroking her

and suddenly she said I don't want your hands

she said I want your penis up my body

to make love to me
I said oh no I if I did that then

if I entered it I would be afraid

that then she would change completely

into a fully fledged vampire

bloodsucking vampire

and I would be lost

well I have dreamed about greta garbo

who I was mad about for a long time
I was standing at the top of a huge staircase

and it was a well staircase

and it sort of wound round down

you could see it descending

it was quite high up

and there were lots of people 
screaming and rushing about

an agitation because slowly up the stairs

was coming this dead 15 year old girl

men have always created an 
idealized form of a woman

marilyn monroe for example 
was worshiped like a goddess

is there an equivalent masculine figure

an idealized masculine figure

what marilyn monroe has been to men

valentino has been to women

he represents so to speak the ideal demon lover

where women are carried 
away into a romantic ecstasy

and fantasize to be like the chic in modern films

to be carried away by the demon lover

into a romantic to us to aloneness

and then I was followed by a tall blonde man

who wrapped me up in his cloak 
and took me to his gypsy caravan

I've even dreamt I was 
dancing with humphrey bogart

when he hadn't got a stitch on

how about that

generally especially if the women are such women

who are unhappy in their 
relationship to their husband

or to their lover fantasize 
therefore of being carried away

and having a secret nocturnal love affair

with animus and anima

animus and anima are therefore very ambiguous

very dangerous inner figures

which have to be approached with great wisdom

they are the great mischief 
makers between men and women

we talked about figures of 
the same sex as the dreamer

and figures of the opposite sex

let's look now at the figure

which jung described as the center of the psyche

the self

in most religious systems

you have an allusion to a kind of divine center

from which everything all

all order and all organization stems

and if we can find out where dreams come

we can say from that center 
whatever that center is

that center appears in the dreams itself sometimes

as a center as a mandala as an inner city

as a circle of a square or 
some other abstract formation

or it appears as a divine savior child

as a savior figure

as a wise old man or wise old woman figure

personified something

a psychopomp something which 
guides our psychic life

all these figures seem to point 
to that ultimately unknown

and unknowable greater center in our psyche

nowadays we speak very much of self-realization

and there's always the danger of mixing this up

with what jung meant by this

the self for jung the self 
written with the capital s

meant to be that supraordinate inner divine center

unknown divine center of the psyche

which we have to explore all our lifetime

nobody knows what the self in him is

and wants from him

we need the dreams the

we can say the dreams are the letters of the self

which the self writes us every night

telling us to do a bit more of 
that or do a bit less of that

or go ahead to the left or 
go a little head to the right

and as I say if one looks back one sees one

suddenly there is a pattern in this

as if the self with the capital 
s is having a plan with us

a kind of destiny

while what in general 
psychological literature is meant

by self-realization is more building 
up a strong ego consciousness

that is also something important

especially in the first half of life

but it's nothing to do

with the adventure of 
encountering the self within one

that is not self-realization in 
the ordinary sense of the word

it's an adventurous encounter

with a greater inner center within oneself

would you say more about the pattern of dreams

is there an overall pattern which 
unfolds over a person's lifetime

in the first half of life

it's directed more towards an outgoing adaptation

to earthly and material outer life

and in the second half of life

it generally begins to steer the 
individual more towards withdrawal

and to develop a certain wisdom

and a certain insight into the background of life

and the last dreams of dying people

are a clear preparation for death

ultimately we don't know we 
don't know where we come from

psychologically speaking

and we don't know where we go

we are part of that cosmic mystery

which is the existence of nature and all things

we don't know why there are galaxies and stars

we don't know why there is a universe

and we only begin to realize

that there are certain master patterns

and it looks as if our 
psychological inner life has

is also organized by a master pattern

it's centered somewhere there is a directing force

it's not a chaotic random thing a phenomenon

and when people get very old

they have therefore an inclination 
to go through their lives

and muse again over their big 
events in life in their dreams

and if one does that carefully

one generally sees a certain pattern in it

problems which solve themselves

which pose themselves solves themselves

go switch over into new problems

there seems to be a secret organization

and the center of that organization

is what the mystics would call 
the divine spark in the psyche

or the god image in the human psyche

the western mystics

the buddhist would call it the buddha mind in us

jung dream to the self in the form of the yogi

you remember he was walking down the road

and came to the little chapel

there were no crucifixes or statues

just the flower arrangement and

jung saw the yogi sitting in front of the altar

yogi was in a state of deep meditation

jung realized with a shock that this was the yogi

who was imagining him

and that in the trance he was 
in a kind of active imagination

imagining the life of you dreaming him

and that when the yogin would wake up

he jung would no longer exist

he the ordinary professor jung

was the dream of that greater inner figure

that reminds me the dream of zhuang zhou

he dreamt that he was a butterfly

and now he's puzzling all the time

is he a man who dreamt that he was a butterfly

or is he a butterfly who dreamt that he was a man

that is very true we cannot figure that out

the butterfly is a symbol of the soul

are we the dream of the self

or are we is the self our dream

we don't know

to interpret a dream

we have to look at the structure

each of the dreams we have 
in our lifetime is unique

some seem straightforward and others more complex

but each is spontaneous and unpredictable

it's surprising therefore to realize

that dreams do have a structure

an actual framework around 
which the dream is organized

and when we start to trace 
the outline of that structure

then the random flow of images 
and events starts to make sense

excuse me we're doing a documentary film on dreams

oh really

yes

you're interested

well I'm interested in my life

and I believe they reveal my life to me

tell us a dream
I fly often

how do you fly do you have motor

or you just fly with your arms

you have to flap your arms nice

mental mental just think about leaving and I do

do you think dreams are important

ah that they certainly be
I write them down

often
why

because they tell your future

or tell how you are feeling most definitely

can you think of an example of your own dreams

which told you something of the future

but they tell me how I feel 
if something is heavy upon me

I cannot move when things are heavy upon me

or I'd be smashed by boulders

or some type of weird objects

that are very heavy upon my head or shoulders

things you are thinking and 
worrying about during the day

they come back in the night in dreams

and you get lost a few worries

in dreams you can imagine things and do things

and dreams that you can't do in real life

do you remember your dream

I do remember and sometimes they 
tell me what is going to happen

or whatever happened during the day

gets totally changed at night in the dream state

the way I wish it would have happened

with me I find dreams that I remember

have elements of thoughts 
from my day thrown together

in a different way that they actually happened

they probably reflect something 
of reality of everyday existence

you know but what I'm not sure you know

dr von franz

how much of dream interpretation 
is scientific and how much is art

I think there's something of both in it

there's a lot of jung has really laid down

a lot of helpful rules which are 
purely technical or scientific

which you can apply according to rules of thumb

and whenever I don't understand a dream
I go back to them

I say now what is the exposition of the dream

what is the setting up what 
is the association and so on

by collecting the association

you can generally get quite far with the technique

but naturally there's additionally

especially through long practice 
is a kind of practitioners skill

which you develop which which 
you can't impart to a beginner

it's like an old carpenter

he use he cannot tell a young carpenter

he tells him how to use the 
tools and how to measure

and how to cut the wood

but there's a certain touch of the wood

which he can't convey to the beginner

the beginner has to work 20 years with wood

and then he'll have the same kind of touch

and when one has interpreted many dreams

and puzzled about many dreams

one gets a certain hang of it so to speak

professional skill which has to do with feeling

and with the mediumistic feeling

with an empathy also in into the other person

people everywhere are intrigued by their dreams

and wondering what they mean

well they give me different feelings

you know their emotional dreams are

but I can't you know I don't 
understand what they do

because they're part of you because I dream them

they're obviously part of me

but they're a part of me
I have absolutely no connection with at all

I think they're fun interesting
I mean I like analyzing them like

I'm not that I can not

that I know what they mean

but it's fun to try to find 
meaning in jungian psychology

we have a technique and that 
is we compare it to a drama

we take the exposition the beginning

the naming of the problem

the periphera that would be 
the ups and downs of the story

and the resolution or catastrophe

and if I don't understand the 
dream I use that schematic

I say now what's the introduction

I had a dream that I was 
walking down by a small lake

and I saw these three women 
who wanted to go into the lake

but I felt that I needed to caution them
I felt there was something ominous in the lake

I'm walking through very deep snow

on my right there is quite a high fence

and as I'm walking along

I'm thinking if violence is going to break out

what am I going to do

I was in a village hall 
organizing a concert or something

once I was up at the clouds

like just all these fluffy cars 
sat just in the clouds there

and had tea with somebody

on first glance dreams seem to be bizarre nonsense

do you have a general rule in 
approaching a specific dream

the first sentence of a dream 
generally gives the situation

and also the first sentences give who I am with

either I wake up at home

or I am still at my childhood 
home with my parents there

or I am at the university lecturing

I'm in my professional situation

I am with my friend bob
I am with my friends also

and then you just take the first sentence

and you ask the dreamer what it is

what was your childhood home like

how did you feel there were you happy there

how long did you stay there and so on so

then you you and with whom are you with

your friend bob how is your friend bob

oh he was a boy but we did all our 
childhood mischief together with him

and whatever the people tell you

and then you kind of insert these what 
we call associations into the text

then it would be I am in a situation
I am psychologically still in my boyhood situation

and I am with a part of myself which is mis boring

but also mischievous that would be the translation

now then you have naturally to think

that applies to the moment of the dream

so in what way is the dreamer

when one leg still in his childhood home

where is he still reacting 
like he reacted as a boy

the dream is speaking about 
that corner of his personality

you have to assume

then you come to the naming of the problem

a car comes up the driveway

and two dark men jump out or something like that

some dramatic the evolution

so that means now this a special story

is told for instance what I just 
mentioned would be an invasion

something which is breaking in

burglary

burglars very often represents something 
breaking into the ones conscious system

so it would mean in a corner

where one still has childish reaction

something from the collective 
unconscious breaks in

so then we have the second sentence of dream

and so we go through the whole dream

and the last sentence is 
always what it is driving at

to a solution or a catastrophe

what is the I generally know this 
rule of interpretation so well

that I kind of follow it half unconsciously

but I always specially attend to 
the last sentence of the dream

because some dreams peter out 
and they are not favorable

they they mean that the 
unconscious itself has no solution

but otherwise if you wake up with a cry

or something happens at the end of the dream

that's the solution

that's what what what gives you the waking shock

that has to be specially realized
I went back into the water

and came face to face with what 
I thought would be a creature

and it turned out to be an ape-like figure

with almost wrapped completely wrapped in bandages

almost like a mummy and I confronted it

and looked right at it

and still remember gorilla-like face really stern
I could sense there was an ape under the bandages

the best if you want to 
interpret your dream yourself

you write on one half of the paper the dream

and then to every word in the dream

you write down your associations

and that means you are completing 
what spontaneously comes to your mind

and once the associations have been listed

on the other side of the page

then how does a person proceed

then you try to show if you have a connection

if you are the first sentence 
said I am in my childhood home

that means where I am still childlike

burglars come in so something is breaking in

and then you sometimes you don't understand

what why does something break 
into my psychological system

now you have to also think of the day before

and what happened before inwardly and outwardly

you might for instance

have the day before had some 
disagreeable experience in

those burglars refer to that disagreeable 
experience you had the day before

there's something broke into your system

or you might have had a 
negative destructive thought

right from within that might 
also be represented by bear glass

something destructive or negative 
certainly breaking into your system

so you have to shortly try to 
remember what happened yesterday

outwardly and inwardly

main lines and then

you probably can make a meaningful connection

then you say high height refers to that

it refers to that thought I had yesterday

or that experience

and it shows me that I behaved in the right way

or in the wrong way

kind of corrects one's attitude

we filmed an amusing dream in hawaii

that made the dreamer feel a bit guilty

well I'm a very very happily married fellow

and my wife's in arizona right now

with our child visiting her folks

and I don't know why but I started dreaming

I was at a high school prom with 
one of the girls who works here

and there was nothing lustrous about the dream

but I have this little sense of guilt

about dreaming I was spending 
time with another woman somewhere

while my wife's away
I suppose that's a natural consequence

I as a in fact I even shared 
it with the girl this morning

just to alleviate any guilt I might have

we've said that every element of a dream

represents some aspect of 
the dreamer's personality

but that's not always true

there are dreams which are 
obviously about outer events

many people dream about the 
death of a close relative

and in fact they do die

when you interpret a dream

how do you know whether 
it's about an inner reality

or the outer reality

for example a man dreams about 
his wife stealing his car

is she actually stealing his car

or how do you interpret the dream

they are there one comes that

one comes to the most ticklish problem of it

because the question

he will be inclined to think there you see

there you see that's exactly what she's doing

she's always taking away 
my my ways of moving about

he's always interfering

and you are not so sure it might just as well mean

that he pro so that it is a so-called projection

namely that his own feminine 
side is stealing the car

and that he only projects that onto his wife

he thinks his wife does it 
he sees it in her so to speak

while he's really doing it 
with unconsciously to himself

so that's why if one wants to 
interpret these dreams correctly

one has to know the whole marital situation

one has to know the wife

and have an idea of her objective behavior

and then one can evaluate

no that is a projection

it's really what this man is 
doing to himself unconsciously

or it has really it refers really to the wife

and sometimes it also does 
to both that's the problem

what we call subjective or 
objective interpretation

referring to an outer object

the wife is really stealing the 
car or referring to the subject

the subject itself is stealing 
its own car with his left hand

so to speak his feminine unconscious 
side is stealing his own car

generally it's recommend

one can say that about I would 
say I have never made a statistic

but I would think that about 
85 percent of the dream motives

are subjective and that 
therefore it is recommendable

to mostly interpret dreams subjectively

to always say what is it in me which does that

instead of taking it as a 
warning against outer people

and what happens

if the dreamer has no personal 
associations to the image

there are so-called archetypal dreams

with big mythological meaning

and there generally people have no associations

if you say what do you think about jupiter

jupiter it's a star

they don't know what to associate

they have no personal things to come to them

in that case you have to take 
the association of mankind

what has mankind fantasized about jupiter

what has mankind fantasized about saturn

and put that into the text 
of the dream so to speak

a lot of people have a sense

that their dreams are really 
telling them something

and they want to understand it

but they're unable to remember any dreams

sometimes yeah wake up that you would remember

but then by the time the 
afternoon comes I forget them

yeah did you tell us one flying yes just flying

somewhere going nowhere you know

it's just like keeps going and 
going not reaching anything

and it was really scary and I came to work

and I told the girls I got a book on dreams

to find out what it meant and couldn't find it

I know analysts who've interpreted 
other people's dreams for years

and they can't interpret their own dreams

why is it that a person can't 
interpret their own dream

the dream never tells you what you know already

it always points to something you don't know

to a blind spot and how do can you see

your own back you can show 
your own back to anybody

and the doctor can see

what's the matter with your back

but you can't see it

and so your own psychological blind spots

are like your back or your arse

you sit on them and that's why sometimes

the dream tells you obvious 
things and you can't see them

you need another person to tell you

and then you think oh lord naturally that's it

but it's very difficult to 
interpret one's own dreams

if one has to one has to

but it is helpful to have another eye on it

even even somebody who doesn't know about dreams

it's good to talk to somebody about it

but while talking and while 
explaining to the other

giving association one very often gets it

jung for instance had nobody 
to interpret his dreams

so he had a man who knew nothing about dreams

he always told him in to a large extent his dreams

and that man made off the point remarks

and they got jung onto the track

and he said laughingly just the off to the point

remarks of this man made 
me feel ah no it isn't that

but I know now what it is

because in the country

we're all in a house with the lake in front of it

and the front of the top floor flips over

and all of us who are in bed upstairs 
get flipped into the front yard

and I get flipped into the yard in front

and my parents got flipped into the water

and I told my stepmother the dream

and she said oh yes very significant

because people falling into bed into the water

all very sexual and everything

but I didn't tell her was 
that when they had fallen in

she and my father were making love at the time

and I didn't quite make it into the water

I didn't quite make it into 
a sea of life or something

yeah I dreamt I was catching a fish

and every time it keeps slipping away
I mean that means pregnancy

because my girlfriend

many people use dream 
dictionaries to interpret dreams

what do you think of these books
I think they are very bad

because they get you off the track

because generally it's a static interpretation

a snake means an illness

or means the death of a relative

breaking teeth means the loss 
of the parents or whatever

you know I mean they are more primitive

in more differentiated are 
now also modern dictionaries

who are a bit more which are 
a bit more differentiated

but still it's always a fixed meaning

do you remember a dream yes I remember one dream
I just felt down into a lake it was terrible

and there were a lot of snakes

so I must say perhaps for a 
psychologist it's very bad

but I don't feel like that I always felt
I am very happy so no no the dream symbolism

in our experience is very much more individual

it is always what that symbol means to me

and what I have experienced with it which counts

and therefore these gen

one can sometimes let oneself be inspired

by looking at one of those modern dictionaries

to see what all possibilities 
what the snake can all mean

or what the peacock can all mean

but then I had to always return

to say what does it mean to me

and that is always much more specific

what value are dreams in your work as an analyst
I don't work with anything else

in our way of thought we only operate with dreams

because the dreams are

what comes out of the dream are

the great danger of all 
psychological helping profession is

that one interferes with the other person's life

that one has think for instance 
of the idea what is normal

you have an idea of normality

and you think the other should become normal

that's interference that's a power attitude

perhaps destiny or god

or whatever you want to call 
the greater powers in the world

don't want this man to be normal

how do I know that he ought to 
be or she ought to be normal

and on top of it normal

what I think is normal

my bourgeois ideas of normality 
forced upon a poor human being

who is destined to be very different

so if you think of that

you don't know when a human 
being comes to you with a problem

if you are honest you have to say
I have no idea where the problem comes from

well any idea you have about the patient

well that the patient should become normal

that he he or she should become socially adapted

are just prejudices you have i

n fact if you are honest

you have to say you have no idea

why somebody has a psychological problem

and what it is there for

and to what you do

we cannot know a human being's destiny

you have I have seen for instance the other day

dreams of a little girl of seven years old

which were the dreams of a dying person

now actually she had had a cancer operation
I didn't know it when I saw the dreams

but she's probably not living more 
than two or three years anymore

and she had the dreams of a old wise personality

so you see her

how you cannot have theories 
how a human life ought to be

or should be

and therefore dreams are the only thing

which comes out of the patient himself

and if we try to understand dreams 
with as little prejudices as possible

we kind of try to find out what does the depth

the psychological depth of 
that patient himself tell him

about him and we the psychotherapist 
is only the translator

the dream translator

so that the analysis amounts to 
saying your own psychic depth thinks

let's take the man who is 
to juvenile thinks of you

that you are a bit too juvenile and damaging

your help about being too 
juvenile that's not my opinion

it's what we have extracted from the man's dream

and that generally hits home

because the patient feels 
it's not the analyst's opinion

if you interpret the dream properly

generally what we say clicks 
it clicks with the analysis

and he says yes and then he's impressed

and that is likely to change

to give him the motivation to change his life

well even if you would say to the same man

oh you are behaving too young 
like too much like a young man

it's not good for your health he might not listen

he's heard that before

but if his own dream laughs at 
him in the way I just showed

then he at least I can only 
say in that actual situation

the man blushed and that shows it 
that the remark of the dream hit home

and then there is a better chance

that he really changes his behavior

and so we in our school

we just go along with the dreams

and tell try to find together with the patient

because we need the patient's association

and his contributions to 
find out together so to speak

in a common work what the dream means

and leave it as that because generally

that hits home and changes slow 
slowly alters the personality

and then the patient doesn't feel

he has been put into the straight jacket

of some conception of normality or adaptation

or whatever the idea is of the analyst

but he's kind of having found off 
to follow his own inner intimations

to follow what his own psyche tells him so

we are trying to educate people to

to be able to hear their inner voice

and follow it with the help of dreams

you're 2 000 meters up in here
I think on a little set of steps yeah yeah y

eah and you're coming down yeah no I
I don't walk I'm just on my on your knees

yeah you're on your knees

coming down a little set of 
steps 2000 meters in the air

yeah and you fall off the end yeah but when I fall

down
I wake up

and you've had that dream two or three times

yeah I think three times three times

and the dream doesn't say anything to you

yeah

yeah I don't believe that 
it's important for my life

what I what I'm dreaming in the night

why do we put such emphasis on the living symbol

in the extraordinary process of dream making

the sensation comes in on the flesh on the body

and it is carried through the transmitters

the neurotransmitters through the various depots

where the exchanges take place and gradually

that sensation comes through to the brain

and that astonishing computer takes that sensation

and computes it into an image an exact image

often put together from our 
past our present and our future

I say an exact image because 
we are left breathless

if we follow our dreams and 
really understand symbol

symbols are to dreams what words are to language

in sleep we speak to ourselves 
in the language of symbols

and the key to dream interpretation 
is one's knowledge of the symbol

when we're actually in a dream

whatever we experience flying 
falling killing makes perfect sense

but later when we recall a dream 
it seems meaningless or bizarre

we no longer understand the symbol

quite often I dream that I'm flying

which is a quite an exhilarating experience

and suddenly it occurs to you 
that it's faintly ridiculous

you're actually flying I just I 
start running faster and faster

I don't use my arms much I 
don't have any other support

except just just just my body 
I flap my arms a little bit

and the longer leaps I take the higher 
and the higher and the higher I go

you're talking about having 
dreams when you're sleeping

things like being caught in 
outer space on a deserted planet

I've flown it's a good it's a it's 
a high right it's an excellent high

like when you're up there you're all by yourself

and you feel that there's nobody around you

but that's again it's another 
dream I was in a grassy meadow

and it was a very warm day and I 
felt very comfortable and happy

and then gradually my feeling changed

and I became edgy and nervous 
and this grew even more

and I felt quite panicky and 
scared but I was terrified

and I knew that by my left foot 
was a snake before I'd even seen it

and I glanced down and sure enough there it was

it was a horrific looking thing with 
human eyes and enormous human teeth

and I knew it was going to do me harm

about a couple of weeks ago I had 
a real bad dream about the snakes

and I was afraid I was going to pass out you know

because I am just terrified by snakes

when I woke up I was sweating all over
I was sweating cold

and I was very relieved that it wasn't true
I tell you a dream I dream about snakes

yeah and well when you look it up

it's supposed to mean enemies
I dreamed that I fell down from the mountains

I mean I just fell down
I could hold me only with two hands

and then it was so bad
I have to wake up because

you know otherwise I failed

so it must be something which 
happened before in my life

that's right

I dreamt once that I was in 
some building of some sort

and we were just hanging around over the cliff

over the ledge
and then we just fell

we had our foot on top of a knees drop

then the knees drop broke 
and we just kept on falling

I kept on falling I don't know 
about everybody else

but I kept on falling and that's all

okay I'll tell you the dream
I moved into a house in montréal

and it had a white staircase

three nights in a row I fell down that staircase
dreaming

and it never had an end
it was terrible

I had a dream that I fell off a cliff

and I woke up I was on the floor

that's by their own dreams

tell us a good nightmare

yeah riding on a motorcycle down cobbled streets

and then just having no street left
and falling that's awful

but I never hit the ground which is good

I'm supposed to die

dr von franz we've all 
experienced falling in dreams

what's it's symbolic meaning

is it true we're dead if we hit the ground
I have experienced falling and not being dead

and being caught up or waking 
up before I hit the floor

so I don't think that's generally so

so when you hit the floor 
you're not necessarily dead

no it simply means a shock collision with reality

if you are too high up
you have dreams of falling

it always means that you are
somewhere too high up

either you have too good an opinion of yourself

you are megalomanic
or you have romantic unreal ideas

or you are living in a make-believe world

or you are living in a theory instead of

you are somewhere missing the contact with reality

and then you have a sudden fall

and sudden fall dreams generally
occur together with

outer deep disappointment

when one is suddenly faced with reality

naked reality as it is and that 
can be a deadly shock to the ego

one can be so to speak
be blotted out by it for a while

that will be the death by hitting the floor

the ego is out has nothing to say anymore

now I'd like to turn to one of the 
major symbols of our culture the star

what is it that mankind has projected
onto the star to make it symbolic

the realm of the stars was always looked at

to be the realm of the eternal divine beings

and therefore in many parts of the world

there is the folklore tradition that
when you see a shooting star shoot down

that is the moment the soul comes to earth
and the child is born

and at the same time as well in china

as in for instance in the old roman empire

when a remarkable personality died

the astrologers went
and looked at the sky for a new star

because they thought
that the dying soul would return

and become a star in the sky

or for instance in the egyptian death ritual

the prayer goes
let me become one of the non-setting stars

which circles around the north pole

that is the goal of the dead person

to become one of the never setting stars

so the star has to do with uniqueness

with the uniqueness
and the eternity of a personality

that has been projected into a star

and for instance the immortal 
spiritual part of the psyche

was represented in egypt
by the so-called ba

which was either drawn as a bird or as a star

and meant that part of the personality
which outlasts death

and then accompanies after death
the sun god over the sky

as a never setting star

this is one of the rare dreams
in which I heard an authoritative male voice

telling me unquestionably
what it wanted me to do

I could not understand it
and a voice said to me this is your lone star

will you tell us about the star of bethlehem

that fits exactly into that context

namely that when a remarkable
outstanding personality is born

a new bright star appears in the sky

and that's how the magi
the three kings interpreted it at once

when they saw the star of bethlehem

they knew now some outstanding
important personality is born on earth

and that's why they went to see the child

that fitted the general viewpoint of the time

everybody would have concluded that at that time

a new star that means somewhere somebody

an emperor a great ruler and personality

who changes the whole fate of mankind

has come to earth

I'd like you to interpret a dream now
in which the star is the central image

it's the most ancient dream
in the history of mankind

the dream of gilgamesh
king of the ancient walled city of uruk

gilgamesh was a powerful leader

and they felt his dream was
important enough to be inscribed in stone

here's the dream

in the middle of the night I walked 
proudly up and down among my people

there were stars in the sky

suddenly one of the stars
of the sky god anu fell upon me

I tried to lift it but it was too heavy for me

all uruk assembled around this star
and the people kissed its feet

can such an ancient dream 
have meaning for us today

this dream is about 4 600 years old

and still we can find modern parallels

the language of the unconscious 
has changed much less

than the language of human consciousness

and so if we interpret this dream
from a modern standpoint

we could say that up till the moment
where the star fell upon gilgamesh

he fulfilled a collective role
of the king

he was the hero and the king

and that he probably was a very ambitious man

he made a big career

he's the typical man

who follows up ambitiously
and successfully a collective pattern

nowadays he would be a great politician
or a movie star or somebody

a man who has followed certain collective alleys

and reached a goal

such a person looked at from within
is generally not individual

he's fulfilling a collective role

and fulfilling a role of power

reacting in a very collective way

the star on the contrary 
represents as we saw before

the uniqueness because every 
soul has one star in heaven

and we can say that up till now gilgamesh

with all his collective power achievements

has not yet done anything unique
on the contrary

he has only filled out a typical pattern
of the hero king

and now presumably in the middle of life

because that's when it most frequently occurs

something changes
while he's walking around the people so to speak

proud of his collective power position

from the sky falls a star on his back

and turns to a heavy load

that is the moment
where the unique destiny befalls him

literally falls upon his back

that means from now on
on one's back one carries a load

and that means he has now

just as christ had to carry his cross

he has now to carry his cross
the burden of having to become himself

to become the unique chosen individual
he was meant to be

and which he had avoided
by being an ambitious collective man up till now

and that proves not to be a glorious call

but to be a heavy burden to him

now the star means also the immortal soul of man

the eternal

for instance in egypt

that part which survives after death 
freely in the egyptian well beyond

is the ba-soul which is drawn as a star

it's the star is it the eternal 
kernel of the human psyche

and has always represented that 
the unique eternal man within us

and so he has now to follow his unique destiny

instead of fulfilling a collective role

but the people kiss the stars feet

they prostrate themselves before the stars

so that it means the real greatness 
is there is probably gilgamesh

up till the star fell upon

and also thought he was a great man he

he was a king he was a hero he 
was the fortress of his people

and now he has to see not he is not much

what the people worship is that star stone

that greater thing in him so that in that dream

there is also a little teaching for gilgamesh

don't take all the honor 
people give you for yourself

don't lap up the compliments 
they give you for yourself

it is that star upon you and 
that is your heaviest load

your necessity to become a unique individual

that's what they worship in you not you

and so from then on

gilgamesh becomes the servant 
of his unique heroic task

to the search for immortality

very few people follow their own star today

why it is easier to admire a great personality

and become a pupil or follower of a guru

or a religious prophet or an admirer 
of a big official personality

a president of the states

or give your life for a general whom you admire

that is easier than to follow your own star

because to follow your own star means isolation

not knowing where to go

having to find out a 
completely new way for yourself

instead of just going on the throttle 
path everybody else runs along

and that's why there's has 
always been a tendency in men

to rather project the uniqueness and 
the greatness of their own inner self

onto outer personalities and become the servants

devoted servants of outer personalities

admirers and servants and imitators

what is the nature of the personality 
that receives that projection

generally if somebody has some by birth

some outstanding qualities intelligence

or some other talents and in time he

he or she attracts the projection of the star

and people devote themselves to 
those gifted people and so on

and in that way then comes the great temptation to

to have to develop an inflation

and inflation means an overestimation of oneself

instead of saying my talent isn't me

and I haven't my intelligence isn't me
I have been born with a good computer

and that's all there is to it

there's no merit

people identify with their 
gifts and they get blown up

inflation means to be blown up like a balloon

and that you see on a minor scale

whenever people have a success

even if somebody elector has a success and so on

he afterwards displays arrogant mannerisms

and doesn't or condescendent mannerism

you see that he he or she has an inflation

and naturally people who have made history

like the roman emperors for instance

to take just a historical example

many of them suffered from what 
one calls the madness of caesars

inflation then is having either too 
high or too low opinion of oneself

but is it possible to get an accurate 
evaluation of one's own self-esteem

or one's self-worth

well the difficulty is

that nobody has by nature a very 
good estimation of his values

nobody knows how much or how little he or she is
I mean ask anybody now honestly

are you a great person are you a small person

how small how great are you compared to others

they would have to admit that they have no idea

it is a subjective feeling that 
either one has an inferiority feeling

and one feels the last worm on earth

or one has a superiority complex

and then one feels one is 
elected far above the average

one has to achieve something special

and most people switch between those two

in neurotic people it's extreme and 
in normal people it's less extreme

but everybody has days where he 
feels lousy and below the weather

and nobody and days where one feels 
on top of the world so to speak

that is a natural bible swing back and forth

and one could call a normal personality

where the estimation of oneself
is approximately reasonable to

compare to what one has achieved

who one is how how the 
surrounding sea to one and so on

but it's a very indefinite thing

really any lack of balance in this respect

when it goes either too far below the mark

or too far above the mark has an 
irritating effect on the surrounding

if one wants to know if one has any inflation

one has to only see if one gets on people's nerves

then one is probably a bit overestimating oneself

and or underestimating oneself 
because that's the same thing

if one feels if one has an inferiority complex

it's really ambition one 
wants to be more than one is

one wants to be a great person and knows one isn't

and therefore one feels the last worm on earth

that is a just a veiled inflation

inferiority is avoided inflation
and therefore also gets on people’s nerves

when people sometimes come in and say

oh well you know I don't know I can't do it

how do you think I can do this
I you know I'm not capable

I'm so stupid I can't think and so on

and now stop that nonsense get on with your job

they are really making a conceited dance

in form of calling themselves incapable

so it has again this irritating effect

so the only measure one can have

because nobody knows who is 
important in the last view of life

before god so to speak

who is important or is not important nobody knows

I'd like to return to something 
we talked about earlier

you said that it's easier for an individual
to follow in someone else's footsteps

than to find their own way

what happens when a person projects 
their own star out onto somebody else

when they project the self
out onto another person

let's first see the positive side

if the self is projected

one falls into a tremendous state
of admiring the person

on to whom one projects the self

a kind of fan incredible fascination 
and devotion to that person

and that can have the advantage 
of being capable of learning

if one has
if one projects the self

for instance onto somebody 
who is really wise or superior

one can learn a lot

that is even the secret of many miraculous cures

that people project the self 
onto a healer personality

and in the incredible fascination

and faith they have into that healer personality

from that faith they are cured

from all sorts of psychological 
or psychosomatic illnesses

so then it serves as a vehicle 
of promoting the individual

much more frequently however

this fascination leads to 
infantile giving up oneself

and being so to speak flat on 
one's belly before the other person

worshiping the great leader 
or the great spiritual guru

or whatever the projection is

and losing oneself in an infantile 
way and remaining infantile

such people are generally very fanatical

in the admiration of that admired person

defending that person 
against the enemies and so on

and basking in the glory of 
their master admired person

through identification and that saves these people

from making an effort themselves

the great man or the great woman out 
there is going to do it all for me

and my task is to only 
applaud and admire the thing

I have to make no effort 
to become more intelligent

or more wiser or more independent myself

so it can just annihilate the personality

and make them infantile instead of 
make them grow up and develop them

it naturally depends a bit from the person

on to whom the projection of the self falls

if that person has an inflation and 
misuses it to breed admirers and followers

it has disastrous consequences

but I know also that there 
are in the far east sometimes

masters who know about the dangers 
of the infantile dependence

and send those novices and pupils 
back to their own inner task

and don't take the projection so to speak

the psychology of one individual can 
be reflected in the entire society

what happens then to the collective

if the self is projected

well then you have you know either monarchies

or leader dictates dictatorships

the kings of all countries

down even to the chief of a primitive tribe

are carriers of the symbol of the self

and you have all the advantages and disadvantages

of a monarchical system

the advantages are

that such a tribe or population 
has a unifying symbol of the self

which holds them together

that is a projected symbol of the self

and because it's such a 
deeply rooted need in man to

to have such a simple living symbol of the self

naturally for catholics the

the pope very often represents 
the symbol of the self

as being more of a spiritual 
leadership than worldly leadership

but that's a split situation in the west

but because there is certain need you have

now when since monarchy has been mostly abolished

we have all the dictators napoleon hitler

we have always these leader figures

which show that people want to gain

or need to project the self 
onto some leader figure

and that according to jung is an infantile gesture

is because we want to remain children

we don't want to take the responsibility

democracy is a very difficult task

because it puts the responsibility on everybody

and most people don't want to 
take political responsibility

they don't want to wreck their brains

but they prefer to think the 
father state will do it all right

so one likes to project onto a leader

we have a group of leaders 
and they are father figures

and they are the self

and they do it all right

just mental and psychological laziness

laziness

laziness is jung once said that's 
the greatest passion of mankind

even greater than power and sex and anything

in our western culture

our psyches and our dna are carrying the symbolism

of the jewish and christian faiths

in the next two films we 
will be looking at the change

the shifting of the symbolism within 
the culture and in individuals

the foundations of our culture

are based on the importance of dreams

in the old testament for example

the priests and prophets the 
leaders believed in their dreams

honored them and acted on them

today we ignore the importance of dreams

we rarely listen to what they're saying

in fact we've even forgotten their language

paradoxically throughout our religious history

dreams played a central role in 
determining the fate of mankind

they were thought to be the voice of god

dr von franz let's look 
first at some biblical dreams

a dream which changed the 
history of the jewish nation

the dream of jacob's ladder

and jacob dreamed that there was a ladder

reaching from the earth up to heaven

and the angels of the lord were 
ascending and descending on it

the lord stood above the ladder and said

the land in which you lie
I will give to you and your descendants

and by your descendants shall all the 
families of the earth bless themselves

behold I am with you

and will keep you wherever you go

quite a prediction

jacob's dream has been one of the examples

which have always been cited 
by medieval and later authors

to justify the taking seriously of dream

and there are some more in the bible

which were always taken in the 
western civilization as proof

that god sends dream and 
that dreams have an important

even they speak of god-sent dreams

they are communications with god

now jacob goes to a certain place near haran

and there because the sunset

he lies down and he puts a 
stone as a pillow under his head

and that certain place is mentioned 
again at the end of the text

that jacob said this is truly the house of god

and so on this is one of the 
oldest beliefs of mankind

that in the landscapes there are certain places

where one has either communication 
with the upper deities

or with the lower deities

for instance a dark chasm or a hole in the ground

was is generally by every 
primitive tribe looked at

as to be the entrance to the underworld

where one communicates with the gods below

where the dead disappear into

or the souls of the children come up and so on

and then other places

in general especially mountain tops are places

where there is a special 
communication with the guards above

if you think of moses on sinaI for instance

and so on because on the mountaintops 
you are closer so to speak

to the upper gods

that's why zeus lives on mount olympus in greece

and all the gods live on 
high mountains or goddesses

and in a flat country where they have no mountains

uh it can also be some other special place

now jacob didn't know that 
this place was a sacred place

he concluded it from his dream

he said that must be a sacred place I have been

because it has come to me

that touch is a mystery 
which we haven't yet solved

namely we project our soul into a landscape

if there is a whole soul geography in the world

every nation and every 
civilization has a geography

they have generally a place where 
one communicates with the gods above

a place where one communicates with a god below

a place where there are good spirits

a place where there are evil 
earthly spirits and so on

it is as if in original man

he his unconscious psyche were 
spread all over the landscape

in certain places in the 
landscape you have a shutter

and you have certain experiences

the romans still knew that

they call that the genius loci

the spirit of the place

and when for instance they built a house

or they made a garden then 
they always put a little statue

or phallic symbol up to the spirit of the place

may the spirit of the place be benevolent to me

and if you with an open heart 
still go through a landscape

you will notice that there are places 
you feel good and you would like to stay

and there are other places 
you feel somehow uncanny

you don't know why but you 
don't want to stay there

you have the same in a house you see

even that your house domestic 
animals have favorite places

where they lie and others where 
they won't go for anything

even if you think they are suitable

one can rationalize it and say it 
is because there's a cold draft

or something like that

but it isn't always sometimes one 
can't find out what the reason is

they just feel psychically good in some places

and we are just the same we 
have our favorite corners

and we are angry if somebody else sits there

where we want to sit

we are exactly like dogs and

but in the landscape the 
tribes have the same thing

and so jacob hid there on a sacred place

where his now talking cycle psychologically

his soul could open to the 
divine influence through a dream

and he put a stone under his head

and that stone is onece again 
of the oldest symbols of mankind

of something sacred

in all most original tribes 
we still know exist on earth

and also from all the archaic excavation

and even the neandertal man and so on

probably worshiped stones

certain stones were felt to 
contain some sacred powers

and for instance for the australian aborigine

in certain stones the spirit 
of the ancestor god lives

and if a woman passes those 
stones she can conceive a child

the child comes into her womb from those stones

and the same was to the germans

old germans thought that they thought

that the souls of newborn children

came out of tombstones

on the graves of their ancestors the ancestors

were jumped into the women from there

so the stone is a place of 
the origin of human life

is the sacred is again the eternal

the eternal man the stone 
is something very similar

than the star it has to do

with the eternal everlasting 
substance of the human being

that was projected into the stone so

with this sacred stone

which is a primitive thing under his head

a kind of fetish

which makes him capable of 
connecting with the beyond

jacob goes asleep and the sun sets

the setting of the sun could be interpreted

as the blotting out of consciousness

he goes deep in the unconscious he goes asleep

and in that moment he sees 
a ladder going up to the sky

now this jacob famous jacob's ladder

on which angels go up and down

is the motif of a continuous 
connection with the realm of the gods

for instance in the shamans

in the medicine men of most countries

in their initiation they climb 
a tree or they climb a ladder

or they climb on a rope up 
into what they say the sky

it's naturally only a few 
meters what they do in reality

and with the idea of going up into the ghost world

and into the world of the gods

and having the connection

and for instance the medicine 
man in tibet in china of old

were called the master of the cord

because only they had that connection

they could climb up to the sky and in other places

it is a tree or a ladder some simply

one of the means to go up step by step

and have a connection with the divine world

but later in the renaissance and in 17th century

jacob's ladder was interpreted

as being the sounds and vowels ought to be

the different qualities of the world

or the different numbers of the world

they were all systems which 
projected into that ladder as being

but the basic idea is a 
continuous constant connection

with the powers of the unconscious

the divine powers of the unconscious

you could say the dream itself is such a ladder

it connects us with the depth of our psyche

with the unknown depth of our psyche

every dream is a rung on a ladder so to speak

and the angels are the messengers of god

so he can receive messages

and there the lord predicts him the future

that belongs to the historical situation

that dreams were mostly attended 
as as means to predict the future

or to know the future

and there the lord predicts jacob

that he and his descendants 
will spread over the earth

and the lord will be with them

he receives a confirmation that god is with him

and that gives him the courage to go on

and that's why when he wakes up

he calls this place the house of the lord

bethel

and puts a stone there as a mark

the stones I have always 
been marker of sacred places

that's an age-old habit of mankind

and goes on from there when you use the word god

what do you mean psychologically

psychologically I'm using the words

anything which impresses a human 
being as completely overwhelming

so that the genuine reaction one has

is to prostrate oneself to the floor

to venerate it to fear it

it's what is fascinating frightening 
or positively overwhelming

in a sort of blissful rapture

anything which you can say

what sweeps a human being completely from its feet

that has always been called god

are you using the word gods in the same way

in the same way yes

only it means that in polytheistic religions

they they they characterize 
different ways of being overwhelmed

overwhelmed by terror then it is 
for instance shiva the destroyer

or overwhelmed by bliss then you are 
overwhelmed rather by vishnu or so on

but in all polytheistic religions 
there are always assurances

that really all those many gods are one

and in when you have a monotheistic religion

with like in christianity they are secretly more f

or instance we have trinity 
and saints and the angels

there's always a secret polytheistic

so monotheism and polytheism 
always interpenetrate each other

sometimes the accent is more on the one

and sometimes the accent is 
more on the many who are one

are the gods alive and well in suburbia

the gods are nowadays everywhere 
where one doesn't expect them

and mostly in the disagree they are 
for instance in the bottle of alcohol

or in the lsd or in some other addiction

or the wotan thunder god of 
rages for instance in terrorists

a terrorist general if you analyze him

is just dedicated to the an overwhelming rage

and the rage has him he has not the rage

the rage has him so that is his god

so we have an innumerable amount of gods

but because we don't venerate them

and we don't look at them they are mostly nasty

that's why for instance if somebody 
has his god in a brandy bottle

you have to find him for him a 
relationship to a spiritual god

you have to drive out the negative 
spirit by a positive spirit

in jacob's dream angels bringing messages from god

obviously people back then believed in angels

but what aspect of the psyche do they represent

are angels still alive today or did they all die

well I can tell what happened 
to me and my friend miss hannah

we were driving into town and 
suddenly she stepped on the brakes

so that I flew into the window and I looked around

there was nothing around at that moment

a child behind the car me made itself 
loose and ran right in front of our car

but we had already stopped

and I said to miss hannah 
how on earth did you do that

the child wasn't visible when you stopped

it wasn't yet visible at all

and she said something in me told me

break at once break at once
I don't know what that was

now man historical man would 
have said an angel told me that

my protecting angel told me that

it is sometimes as if a benevolent 
presence interferes with what we are doing

miss hannah had no idea why she breaked

just felt like a voice in 
her ear saying break break

and she breaked

now people sometimes fall down from a roof

and get caught up by a tree branch

or they have a bad car accident where 
theoretically they should be dead

and they are practically unhurt

and that makes them feel that there was 
some intentional meaningful agency at work

which helped them save their lives

a presence

and that it is not just a mechanism

because it that thing does it intelligently

that's why one feels it's 
like a personality helping one

something personal something protecting

our personal we have also naturally evil angels

which can lead us down the road of destruction

but generally the idea of angels 
comes from such experiences

miraculous experiences where one feels 
that some intelligent agency beyond us

has helped us now

one feels a presence the angel has 
also sometimes to do with the idea

of a double most primitive civilization

people in primitive civilizations believe 
that we have somewhere living in the bush

are also invisibly accompanying us behind us

a greater personality an invisible double

now we would say that's the 
personification of the unconscious

of the maker of dreams and if one sees 
that double actually in reality outside

then it is generally a symptom of death

primitives say because they 
think that we are as long

as we live on earth split we have a consciousness

a restricted consciousness

which is the thing we would 
now call our ego consciousness

and we have a greater 
personality invisible personality

which lives behind us or somewhere in the bush

and which only appears at certain moments

and if a primitive is saved 
in such a miraculous way

from an accident he would think 
that his double has done it

so the double and the protecting angel

have a lot to do with each other

it's always the same experience

that something more intelligent 
and greater than your ego

is alive in you and sometimes makes you do things

or arranges your fate against your own will

and against your own planning

and that is an experience I think 
everybody has had in his life sometimes

and naturally in higher religions 
that was then transformed

into the teaching that there are angels and 
that everybody has a good angel protecting him

and sometimes also an evil angel 
trying to seduce him or her

and it is the battle of powers 

half 
personified powers in the unconscious within us

for which we are not responsible

and which are understood as messengers

with god the angels have the 
function primitive manta god has not

the possibility of looking 
after everything himself

so the angels are his delegates 
who look after his creatures

many medieval paintings often show 
angels as messengers of dreams

they show the dreamer and then the angel 
bringing the dream down from heaven

yes the dream was very often understood as being

so to speak

the angel was understood as being 
the personified essence of a dream

because you see dreams also save our lives

sometimes we have a warning dream

and if we attend to it we can 
avoid all sorts of disaster

I would for instance never take a flight 

if 
I had a disastrous dream the night before

because I think if the unconscious takes 
the trouble to give me a warning dream

I should attend to it 

our unconscious

and we cannot explain that but it is a fact

that it does know more than we know

that it is as if the unconscious 
of the human being is expanded

into outer nature and has 
informations which we cannot have

and therefore in dreams you get 
sometimes warnings or information

about things you cannot possibly know

in jacob's dream an inner authority gives 
him direction for the rest of his life

we talked earlier about how that inner authority

can be projected out onto an 
individual or a great personality

can it also be projected 
onto a cause or an ideology

yes you can either project on a personality 
of a spiritual or worldly leader

or it can be an ideology and 
ism or a religious conviction

which you also then look at to be the highest 
goal and dictating important factor of your life

that is just as possible

that's why wherever you have fanatical beliefs

be it in religion or an ideological system

you have this projected outer 
star so to speak which you follow

can you give us some examples of leaders 
on whom people have projected their star

hitler was a malefic star so to speak

to whom thousands of germans followed

and christ was a beneficent 
star whom millions followed

there are naturally false 
prophets and good leaders

bad leaders and even that history decides

and if one looks closer

even the good leaders have some 
drawbacks and it is not so clear

but you have the same when 
somebody elects a guru run

or has a too great a transference 
to his psychotherapist

and so on it's always having projected the star

the uniqueness of the personality onto the other

and being fascinated by the person out 
there instead of following it within

and how would that apply to movie stars

just in that sense for 
instance a feminine movie star

you see how all the teenagers of the 
world try to dress in the same way

and style their hair in the same way

they are it is the star it is the 
ideal the feminine personality

they would like to become or 
therefore they even try to imitate

and the same with male movie stars

that while generally movie stars also 
start a whole clothes fashion and so on

everybody imitates them it is so to speak the 
ideal man or the ideal woman they represent

and as the ideal changes every five ten years

there are always new stars with a new style

which then appeal to a new 
generation to other people

to be a model personality 
so to speak for everybody

is it a good thing or a bad thing
I think it's neither a good thing nor a bad thing

it depends on what one does with it

for instance

you can see that if the british hadn't in 
those hard times during the last world war

projected their star on churchill

and have had complete belief and 
carry which gave them courage

they would have probably 
not stood through the ordeal

so churchill being the star of the british 
nation in the dark time saved the british nation

so that in that case it had a beneficent effect

dreams have determined the destiny of individuals

but they've also altered 
the fate of entire cultures

let's look at three dreams which 
determine the destiny of our civilization

dr von franz

the first of these I'd like to 
look at is the dream of a young man

who lived in the desert almost 3000 years ago

he was his father's favorite child

and his father gave him a coat of many colors

had 11 brothers who were intensely jealous of him

and one day he told his brothers this dream

behold we were binding sheaves in the field

and lo my sheaf rose and stood upright 
and your sheaves gathered round it

and bowed down to my sheaf

and then I dreamed that the sun the moon 
and eleven stars were bowing down to me

would you show us how this 
dream reveals joseph's destiny

joseph was a bit naive to 
tell his family his dreams

because though they probably 
didn't interpret them consciously

they were hit by them and got angry

namely the first dream says that 
the sheaves of wheat bow before him

now the sheaves of wheat
have been in those times

a simile of the generations of human life

there is for instance a whole symbolism in egypt

and you have allusions to it also in the bible

that man is like wheat
he blossoms he is cut by death

and from the roots he sprouts again

so the cycle of life and death

and eternal returning to eternal life 
has been always projected into the wheat

you have that also in the greek elysian mysteries

you have it in the biblical saying

that if the corn doesn't fall onto the earth

it doesn't bear food and so on

so there is the idea 

if he dreams 
that the sheaves of wheat bow before him

it would mean that the whole 
earthly life the vegetation

and with it the human beings

the tribes of human beings would bow before him

it is a dream which shows his 
inner election to become a leader

a leading outstanding personality

and naturally some people farther removed 
might fall for that and admire him

and follow him and imitate him 
in the sense we mentioned before

but the family generally hates 
a family member to be a genius

or to be outstanding or different

sometimes you have families 
who have a genius child

and they identify with it and run the 
show with it and kind of bath in its glory

but more frequently if we read 
the histories of gifted people

outstanding people have generally 
trouble with their family members



jealousy and wanting to 
bang them down in into shape

and misunderstanding
of their outstanding fate

it has also to be said that 
outstanding personalities

generally these pay in some 
way for their outstandingness

they have generally some 
unpleasant characteristics

to compensate their greatness

and therefore they are difficult 
to swallow for their surrounding

and joseph naively tells his dream 
and the reaction becomes quite clear

and then he has even a worse dream

namely that sun and moon 
and the stars bow before him

as if he were the new sun 
the new center of the sky

so this is again a very exaggerated 
formulation of his outstandingness

of him being the elected

the man elected by the lord

from a modern standpoint

one must conclude that joseph was 
not knowing about his importance

that he was rather underestimating himself

if one has such a dream

if he needed such a dream

it shows that he probably thought himself 
consciously 
a very ordinary person

and that's why the dream hammers into him

no you are something special 

you have a special destiny

and the sheaves of wheat 
and the 
luminaries in heaven will bow before you

you are the center 
you are the important person

on you everything will depend one day

that also prepares him to later 

take responsibility for his tribe

for the jewish tribe

without such dreams 
nobody can take 
the responsibilities of a leader

but with such a dream 
one 
can take the responsibility

one knows one has to stand there 
and have 
the courage to take the responsibility

in your practice as an analyst

have you ever seen a dream like joseph's 

which revealed a person's destiny

oh yes I had for instance in my practice a painter

his training was

but also his predilection was

 
that he painted very accurately

outer things and therefore earned his living

mostly by very accurate 
old-fashioned portrait painting

not modern painting
like chagall or klee or so on

but old-fashioned photographic-like paintings

and that was his passion 

and he had a violent 
resistance 
to what he called modern art

and it's destructive and 
impossible ways he despised

and night after night 

he dreamt that he had 
to change completely 

and paint inner things

and abstract things and for 
instance he used always dark colors

he had clear dreams which said 

he had to paint in bright colors

and he had very disagreeable physical symptoms

among others he was impotent

and as soon as he began
to obey the dreams

his physical symptoms and 
his impotence disappeared

he was cured by having changed 
completely his artistic style

now that was not a vocation where 
they had to change professionally

and only within his profession

to change completely his way

but I have had people where 
they had to change profession

they had to become writers or 
they had to give up everything

and do something else instead 

that's naturally 
always a terrible moment of fear and crisis

but what we call a vocational call

to have a call to do something

that occurs very often and quite frequently

the neurosis of people comes from the fact 


that they don't have listened to their call

joseph later became quite a dream interpreter

here's the dream of the 
pharaoh which he interpreted

the pharaoh dreamed he was standing by the nile

and behold seven cows 
sleek and 
fat 

came up out of the river

and fed in the reed grass

and seven other cows gaunt and 
thin came up out of the nile

and ate up the seven fat cows

joseph's interpretation saved 
egypt from a fate of starvation

can you explain how he made that interpretation

if we want to understand joseph's interpretation

we have to a bit follow the thoughts of that time

now the cow in egypt was the mother goddess

and for instance they thought 

that a 
heavenly cow covered the whole heaven

a cow was standing over the sky

and supported by the god of air shu

and on her belly were all the 
constellations of the stars

when you looked up you really look 
at the belly of an enormous cow

the great feminine goddess isis was also 
sometimes represented with a cow’s head

and so was the goddess hertha

and so the cow had to do with 
the cosmic maternal principle

with the principle of feminine fertility

of the earth and the sky

the sky naturally giving the 
rain in those dry countries

the rain is the milk of the 
heavenly cow and guarantees all life

and the number seven according 
to the thoughts of those time

was always associated with the seven planets

and with the seven metals and so on

and what and meant a complete 
cycle after 70 with 83 begins

that has also to do with a week

we have seven days and the 
eighth days is a re-beginning

so it is associated with seven

is in the tradition of number symbolism

is associated with the symbolism 
of a complete cycle of time

so joseph thought along those lines

and thought there will be a 
complete cycle of time of fertility

where the mother goddesses will give plenty

and then a cycle where there will be poverty

and so he predicted to the pharaoh that 
there would be seven years of plenty

and then seven years of 
hunger and drought would come

which fulfilled itself completely

that was the way he interpreted the dream

you know the amazing thing about that is 


that the pharaoh acted on the interpretation

if the president of the united states suddenly 
said 

we're going to build big storage bins

and put all the grain of the west 
into them for the next seven years

we're gonna have a famine 

and he said that 
that's based on a dream I had last night

the whole economy is going to change 
because of the dream I had last night

he'd be put in a loony bin

if the pharaoh came to you with that dream 

would you give him that interpretation

yes if I knew I have an old egyptian

pharaoh before me in my practice
I would talk in that language

the third dream of destiny 
is a dream which we all know

but perhaps not realize is a dream

it's a dream of a carpenter who 
was engaged to a young woman

whom he believed was a virgin and 
when he found out she was pregnant

he had this dream

behold an angel of the lord 
appeared to joseph in a dream saying

do not fear to take mary for your wife

for that which is conceived 
in hers of the holy spirit

she will bear a son and you 
shall call his name jesus

and he will save his people from their sins

though in the time of joseph there was

that was a time people were still inclined to more

more than they are today to 
believe in supernatural facts

obviously joseph too had his very 
common and ordinary suspicions

against the pregnancy of his wife and he

he needed this dream of god to tell him

that the supernatural divine 
birth of christ had taken place

in all religions the central teaching is

contains such paradoxes

namely generally something which is right 
agreeing again human exp against human experience

it is so to speak the 
essence of a religious saying

that it is it says something impossible and this 
asserts the superiority of the spirit over matter

the in the materialistic world there 
is not such a thing as a virgin birth

but by asserting it is so

religious saying asserts the priority 
of certain inner spiritual things

above outer material things

that's the meaning and that's why 
it's wrong to want to do away with it

and you find the same thing in dreams

whenever people don't are too 
rational and materialistic

then the dreams point out 
something completely supernatural

I remember the dream of a woman who dreamt that

she saw on the floor a little and 
mechanical animal made of diamonds

but which was alive and walked around

and she consulted jung about it and he said

that is to prove to you that 
the impossible is possible

that you are still too rational

you think such a thing cannot happen

you are not open to miracles

and there are miracles

there are psycho

in the realm of the psychic 
realities miracles can happen

and that the dreams asserts generally by

by asserting the impossible

and say look there you think that's impossible

and just that does exist 
in the realm of the psyche

it doesn't exist in the realm of matter but 
it does exist in the realm of the psyche

and joseph also needed the 
angel a messenger from god

to in a dream tell him that christ 
was born in a supernatural way

conceived by the holy ghost 
which is how most heroes

mythological heroes and heroes 
in different religions are born

the virgin birth is not 
something unique for christ

but most supernatural savior 
figures are born in such a way

or conceived in such a way

and joseph according to the spirit of 
the time took that completely literally

and accepted it and stood up for the virgin mary

and accompanied her and protected the child 
and carried all the difficulties for her

without ever wavering in his faith

because naturally one can imagine

that the people in his surrounding

talked quite differently about these events

so it shows again how here

the dream unites certain 
people into a common action

and that was the dream

life is a community promoting factor

if people attend their dream 
some people always think

if one attends one stream one 
becomes a solitary lunatic

funny kind of artistic person

who follows his own dream in an asocial way

but that is not true

very often dreams order us to relate to somebody

or something which doesn't occur 
to us at all in consciousness

and so the dreams create social bonds

and social new social behavior

just as much as the server 
sometimes old social ties

but this dream is not at all any social phenomenon

and that you see here that joseph

who might have turned against his wife

and been destructive to her

through the help of a dream 
completely changes his attitude

and supports her throughout her whole life

you've written about other cultures

in which the dream plays an important social role

can you tell us about those

many so-called primitive tribes
I don't like the word primitive

but let's say people who still 
live in a natural surrounding

and have their own natural culture 
intact from white influence

those people rely very much on their dream

there's this famous tribe of the senuI

who educate their children to relate 
their dreams from early age on

and every dream of is discussed in the family

and the tribe and interpret it

and one can say that practically

their whole social life and behavior is based on

is oriented towards and based on their dreams

in their way they interpret dreams

or for instance there is 
an australian origin tribe

who have a festival kuna pipi which lasts 30 years

a whole generation every year 
part of the festival is performed

and at the end of each part of the 
festival they assemble the tribe

and they ask who had dreams about the ceremony

and then they discussed the dreams

and if there are propositions in 
the dreams to change the ritual

they change the ritual

so that the ritual always 
corresponds to their inner dream life

or that in their inner dream

life always has a say about their religious ritual

in canada the iroquois indian 
tribes took the dream seriously

in fact one of the massacres of 
the jesuits was a result of a dream

they also

some of their prophets foresaw the 
disaster of their community in dreams

and they tried to defend 
themselves as well as they could

and they also told the white missionaries

who tried to destroy their faith as superstition

they told them their dreams and to prove 
the reality of their spiritual experience

so I think the writer of this thesis says

that one should now study 
many more primitive societies

and one will probably discover that this 
is true for most primitive societies

but up till now ethnologists 
haven't asked about it

and then they didn't tell about it much

I mean one has to go for these 
themes before finding out

but it looks from all we can know now

that most primitive cultures and 
societies heavily rely on dreams

also in china they always had I 
just read a paper the other day

that still in the streets 
even now in communist china

there are specialists to whom you can go

and have your dream interpreted

they are different they are kind of medicine men

sometimes they'll be charlatans 
and sometimes very serious people

who interpret the dreams to people in the street

they go up there and they pay something 
for having their dream interpreted

and from the interpretations I have read

they are

they sound most modern those men

chinamen are very good psychologists

and they they have intuitions 
about the dreams of people

which would completely 
correspond to what we would say

what can modern psychology learn from the way

in which primitives relate to their dreams

that in general primitives are less 
technologically and rationally oriented

and therefore have a more natural outlook on life

and on death and on their own inner life

they are better related to their instinctual life

as long as they are not disturbed 
by our technological civilization

and therefore we have the urgent need 
to return to a similar way of life

they can show us by their more 
natural and more wholesome reactions

what we have lost

we have to become become 
too lopsidedly intellectual

and therefore we have

that's why we don't relate anymore to our dreams

or we think in waking up our dreams

our silly dreams or absurd dreams or nonsense

that's our first impression

while the primitive man who thinks 
who has more symbolic thinking

and generally also through his tribal traditions

he has more mythological and symbolic knowledge

he has a better relationship to his dreams

and that means he has a better better relationship

to his inner life to his instinctual life

is that part of the role of the 
psychoanalyst in modern society

to reconnect the individual with 
their instinctual inner life

that's why in jungian therapy 
the offer for the patient is

that he can establish a unique relationship

and that one offers him a unique relationship

which is not a technique of therapy

or a certain way of approaching 
or looking at the other

but a personal encounter

and that's why jung said forget 
all the psychological theories

when you meet the patient just meet 
him with your heart and your mind

as a unique human being

and then it doesn't become boring

it's in every encounter is an adventure 
and what role does the dream play in this

the dream does that the three i

among the over 60 000 dreams I've interpreted

I've never met two same dreams

the dream is always unique

and comes always uniquely at 
a certain at the right moment

at a certain moment and that's the 
message of the powers of the instinct

of the powers of the collective unconscious

the message which comes that 
night through at that moment

and is a message which is meant for you

the dream is a message which is

the alchemist would say is a message 
from the unique to the unique

namely from the divine center of the 
psyche to the unique individual one is

and to the unique situation one is in

and that's why you can never predict dreams

you can never go to bed and say I'll 
probably dream about this and that

it never comes off you

you will always dream about 
something completely different

so at the source of the dream 
there is a creative mystery

which we will which we cannot rationally explain

it's the creativity of nature

it's the same creativity which has 
created the million of species of animals

and flowers and plants on the earth

which men could never invent

and the dreams are also like flowers or plants

they are something unique you can only marvel at

do

perhaps it would be helpful at this time

to look at a model of jung's 
understanding of the psyche

remember this is only a general format

every person is individual 
in their actual dreaming

and in their actual process

but this is how he saw the general pattern

if we take this circle as the self

that includes the known the unknown everything

and if we hold this line as 
the threshold of consciousness

by threshold I mean it's that 
space when you're waking up

when you just come over into this world

or you can fall back into sleep

here is the unconscious

here is the so-called world of consciousness

between those two is this little tiny ego

tiny little thing and yet all of our world

our reality moves through that space

it's partly in the unconscious 
partly in consciousness

in the unconscious as jung understood it

there are these floating islands in this vast sea

and these are known as the complexes

they are energy centers

and they have at their core 
what he calls archetypes

and those archetypes are immense energy

divine energy that have the 
power to knock the ego right out

they also however are essential to human beings

in that it's from that archetypal world

that poetry music all the great arts come

and of course religion is from that space

now the complex comes into action

when something out here in 
the ordinary world attracts it

I'll use an addict as an example

because it's so clear with an addiction

supposing I had no loving mother
I not because she didn't love me my mother

but because through her generations behind her

she didn't know how to look at me as I was

or at me as she saw me as she wanted to be

but it wasn't my reality

so somewhere along the line
I developed a craving for sweetness

a craving for nourishment

for life
I happened to put this onto chocolate

or any other food that was sweet

and could give me that feeling of being loved

so I see the chocolate
I want the chocolate

if I have a weak ego

the ego cannot tell me

no you shouldn't have any more chocolate

so I come past the eagle

and go for the chocolate
I go right up through that unchallenged line

supposing I try to say to myself
I won't have the chocolate

it may be that the archetype will say
I will and I don't care what you think

what your ego wants to do
I want the chocolate I've always had the chocolate

I always will have it and I 
will go direct to the chocolate

the ego has been wiped out

and we are really in a complexed situation

from the jungian point of view

this is a very dangerous space to be in

because the ego has lost its power

the complex has taken over and 
the archetypal energy is at work

now in a well working psyche

the ego is strong enough to 
hold that complex in abeyance

and yes let it develop let it mature

but not to allow the archetype to take over

the archetype will be more 
powerful than the ego later on

when for example

you have an ego strong enough to write

well trained that it can play music

and the ego can be forgotten

while the archetypal energy is moving through

or in prayer for example 
the ego is out of the road

the prayer is coming through

the archetypal energy is essential to

to life at the in the dimension

that we as human beings relate relate to it

the tragedy in our culture is

that so many people do not 
believe in symbolic language

and so they try to satisfy a spiritual yearning

with a physical food or alcohol

or drugs or silk underwear 
whatever the addiction is

that cannot work

there is no satiation point for a 
spiritual longing by physical means

so long as that symbol is not alive

as a living symbol it cannot do its 
work to bring us into our totality

this series is really a short 
course in jungian psychology

we start out with an 
understanding of the shadow you

in jungian terms the shadow 
is the same gender as the ego

it is the part of us that we do not know

it's in the unconscious and we must remember

unconscious means unconscious

not knowing there's something 
that wants to come through

tell us something and we must recognize

that every dream is giving us 
something new from the unconscious

so the shadow is that part 
of us that we do not know

or it may be a part of us that was 
buried when we were very very young

for whatever reason we didn't 
have a chance to live that side

we were shamed for it

we were humiliated

we weren't in our own peer group 
and so we stepped away from it

and buried it and hoped we 
would never see it again

the other side of the shadow is the bright 
creative full of vibrant life shadow

the creature that is hidden within us

who has never dared to come out

or as a child when it dared 
to come out we were told

we don't do those kind of things here

and we knew that we had done something wrong

but if that shadow does emerge

that creative shadow everything may 
become yes I said yes I will yes

physical energy works like psychic energy

for example if we take these two little magnets

and I have the like poles

and I'm trying to bring those poles together

they absolutely refuse to melt

if I bring the negative it's instantaneous

they automatically want to clip in to each other

think of yourself at a party and you see someone

and you say of all the people at this party

that's the one I don't want to get involved with

but all the time you know where he is in the room

and he knows where you are in the room

and those two energies are coming together

that's how life brings us to our own reality

in jung's understanding

there is a natural gradient towards wholeness

not towards perfection but 
towards knowing all of ourselves

to recognize the darkest corners 
as well as the light corners

and to recognize as blake said 
without contraries is no progression

you need that grain of sand there to

to cause that continual grind you need

you need that world of contraries

to bring out the very best of your strength

and that natural gradient will go through

and try to pick that up

that is true both negatively and positively

I like to think of that natural 
gradient towards wholeness

as the two snakes in the yogic world

if you imagine the one is the masculine

the other the feminine

the one begins to move

finds the strength

the other begins to move and 
they move to a point of meeting

they kiss then they have to separate

the one may become stronger

the other is then forced into a place of strength

and they work their way through

till they come again to meeting

and again they kiss

recognize each other

and again they must separate

and so they go through that third round

and at the top they meet in the divine embrace

the process is a natural evolution

of growing together separating opening

into a further individuality

so that each is allowed to come 
to their own wholeness within

and within the relationship

and now we are going to look 
at the structure of a dream

I think it's very important to realize

that the archetypal structure in narrative

is the same in a simple dream 
as it is in a classical play

it is in us that structuring 
of the archetypal energy

take for example macbeth

very simple plot

we have the introduction the rising action

I'm sure you all learned this in grade 12.

the climax

the dénouement

and the end of the dream is the lysis

that little part on the end that 
tells us where the energy wants to go

there are five parts to a classical play

and if we could remember the entire dream

there would be five parts there

but very few of us can remember them

most of us just get the lysis

but that is very very important

as you will see in a moment

in the introduction we are given the character

characters

the plot and the setting

we see that there may be some 
kind of conflict developing

even in the introduction but it is highlighted

as it moves through the rising action

two conflicting energies begin to meet

then they come to the climax 
and something happens there

that turns the energy of the play

so you begin to see

whether the outcome is going to be 
good for the hero quotation marks

or whether he is going to be destroyed

for example macbeth everything 
seems to be going on his side

until he gets to this climax 
and macbeth makes a decision

and here is what he says
I am in blood steeped in so far

that should I wait no more

returning were as tedious as go or

strange things I have in head

which will to hand

which must be acted

ere they may be scanned

that is his decision

and the rest of the play is 
the outcome of that decision

it is a tragedy

so that tragedy begins to develop 
in what is known as the dénouement

and gradually he comes to 
the place where he loses all

his head is taken off

in the lysis of the play

we know that there's going to be a new king

we know who that's going to be

and the hero is dead

now in a dream this lysis is terribly important

let me give you an example

a man dreams that he's been 
walking through a jungle

and he's been into one ambush 
after another in that jungle

and he goes through the jungle 
cutting off one big leaf

steps through he has no idea where he's going

but he just keeps cutting off one leaf and
gradually he comes to a river

and he is so happy to be at the river

finally he's finished with the jungle

he looks across the river

and behold there's a jungle on the other side

that doesn't mean he can't go any further

and then he realizes

that somebody has been cutting 
through the jungle on the other side

coming to meet him

that divine presence has been 
coming through on the other side

and so he has the strength to go on

the lysis is will carry the energy 
into the next place of action

often we only get the lysis of the dream

but if we get even that

we know where our energy is trying to go

we are left breathless if we follow our dreams

and really understand symbol

let's go to macbeth again

when macbeth hears that his wife is dead

he says she should have died hereafter

he says this about the woman who came to meet him

at the very beginning of the play

with all her love and passion

expressed in one word

my husband

however after the servant leaves

when he's had the news he 
launches into that great soliloquy

tomorrow and tomorrow and 
tomorrow creeps in its petty pace

from day to day to the last 
syllable of recorded time

out out brief candle

now any of you who have watched a loved one die

take their last breath understand brief candle

the whole body just shrivels into ice

the warmth

the vitality the light finished

finished and you are faced with the 
enormity of the mystery of death

that tiny little phrase brief 
candle brings together the intellect

the feeling the imagination

and for one moment you are whole

that jung says that without the archetypal image

there is no healing

because the harmonic is in 
the totality of the symbol

that can bring you into a wholeness

that acts as a tuning fork for 
where you are going to go next

our unconscious is often imaged as a vast ocean

some people go fishing every night

some catch a minnow

some catch a whale

some don't go with any fishing gear

they're not interested in fish

and not interested in trying to catch one

other people are very 
interested in catching a fish

they bring up that unconscious content

in order to relate to it

in order to open up their 
vision into a very new place

the old symbols will not move us into a new vision

a new place in ourselves

where we can see life in a new way

and so we live with that symbol

that is operating as an energy source in our body

sometimes we have to remember keith's phrase

heard melodies are sweet but 
those unheard are sweeter

it takes courage and faith

to try to remember those unheard melodies
I think of a businessman for example

who is up to his ears in glass and concrete

and one night he has a dream

a compensating dream

this is one of the great things about dreams

they compensate for an over exaggerated attitude

and consciousness

so this businessman has a dream

about the pond he used to 
fish in when he was a boy

and the trilling of a bird brings 
him into a place in himself

where he can hear those songs those unheard songs

can he sing that song

dare he sing that song

in our western culture

our psyches and our dna are filled 
with christian and jewish symbolism

is really important when you're studying dreams

that you recognize your own heritage and honor it

because it will be manifesting in ways 
that you could never have imagined

it is important when you are looking at a culture

and the individuals within that culture

that you look into the foundations

for example in our culture

the foundations have been in 
dreams in the jewish world

in the old testament

kings prophets leaders listened to their dreams

in the new testament mary 
listened to the inner voice

bore a divine child

and her husband joseph was told

to take the mother and child to egypt in a dream

he obeyed and saved their lives

the great biblical figures 
wrestled with their angels

and they either surrendered

or found a new meaning for their lives

it's no small thing to be met by an angel

especially if the angel wants you to do something

that the ego does not want to do

sooner or later we realize 
that we are walking down a path

as my dear old dr bennett used to say

well mrs woodman you're going to walk that path

whether you like it or not

you can either go like a squealing pig

being dragged to the slaughter

or you can muster as much 
dignity and grace as you can

with our framework well in place

we turn now to the interpretation of modern dreams

beginning with men

we see how dreams reveal an unlived shadow side

the shadow is the same gender as the dreamer

I think it's really important 
that we recognize too

that in our society

when the feminine is mentioned

people tend to think we are talking about women

but in this process of integration

in the individuation process

it is the relationship to the feminine within

that is determining the relationship

to the feminine without

inside everyone lurks the shadow

behind the mask we wear for others

beneath the face we show ourselves

lives an unknown sight of our personality

at night when we lie helpless in our sleep

its image confronts us face to face

well it was about four years ago

and I had I was in residential work

and I had a breakdown

and my mother who had been 
dead then about 13 14 years

every night I kept dreaming of her

and somewhere up above me

she kept begging me to go to her

and I kept saying no I'm not ready to come yet

and she kept saying you've got 
to come I want you I want you

and I said well you never 
wanted me when you was alive

and I'm not leaving bob and

that's my husband

and this went on for weeks and weeks and weeks

and in the end I just in one of my dreams
I told my mother

all the things I'd felt 
about her when she was alive

and got it all off my chest

and I didn't didn't have any more

but it was awful

because I was trying to go to sleep

because I knew you know the dream would

would occur every night but

she didn't want me when she was alive

and I thought well no way 
you're going to get me now

it really was horrible

dr von franz

dreams show us our own lived life

through the figure of the shadow

psychologically what is the 
meaning of the word shadow

that is simply a name we use for the fact

that most people are not fully aware 
of all their personality traits

we like to imagine ourselves as being intelligent

or generous or good natured

or practically gifted and whatnot

and there are other qualities 
of our conscious personality

inferior qualities

which we know somewhere

I mean the surroundings 
tell us about them generally

and in quarrels it comes out

but we tend to push it into the shadow

we don't look at it

and when we think about ourselves 
we forget about these qualities

only our best friends and people we live with

our marital partners

can generally very clearly point 
out these more inferior traits

I'd like you to interpret a rather 
amusing shadow dream of a 13 year old boy

I dreamt it was a huge eagle

and I was flying over the town

and I saw my friend chris and 
mike there walking to school

so I swooped down and I shit 
right on top of chris's head

and he had to go home to wash his hair

and then I was sitting on top of his roof

and he was going back to school at lunch

and so I swooped down and I shit 
right on top of his head again

and he went crying inside

and I thought it was the 
funniest thing I'd ever done

in this dream we see again
gilgamesh and enkidu

so to speak in another variation

the two boys are friends but 
they are also as contrasts the

the friend on to whom he shits 
is more of an extrovert boy

who likes collective sports and wants to go out

and the dreamer himself prefers individual plays

and seems to be a more reflective character

and in the dream he

it begins that he flies

he's an eagle and is flying

an eagle in general is

in heraldics the eagle is always
the animal of kings and leaders

and because one thought that

like the lion is the king of the wild animals

the eagle is the king of the birds

so he has something to do with the power drive

but also with spiritual elation

with high flights in thought and fantasy

it looks as if the dreamer has much more fantasy

capacities of fantasy than his extrovert friend

now all introvert individualists 
secretly envy the extrovert

because the extrovert is 
more successful collectively

and generally introverts have a certain 
feeling of inferiority towards extroverts

extroverts have them too towards the other

but they never admit it

but the introverts generally admit

that they envy the worldly successful friend

and therefore you know the dream

the balance is restored

that our dreamer as an eagle

succeeds in shitting on his friend's head

and by that humiliating him

he has to go and get mama's help

and he has naturally an elated feeling of triumph

one could look at the dream 
a bit suspiciously and say

there's also a little warning in it

that he shouldn't elevate 
himself too much above the friend

but I think it rather means a compensation

that he feels a bit uncertain 
or inferior towards his friend

and therefore the dream shows him the possibility

look here you are the real eagle

you can shit on his head

so it's no problem

can the shadow also take a positive form

because of wanting to play a social role

most people identify more 
with their positive qualities

and therefore the shadow is 
generally more awkward inferior

sometimes a bit evil or socially unadapted

but that is not always so

there are people who prefer 
to live their worst side

and then their shadow is positive

there has been made studies among criminals

who live so to speak the worst 
side of their personality

and then they have a positive shadow

they have a well-meaning helper 
of man as a shadow figure

but

the normal average is that we identify

or prefer to identify more with our positive

and developed traits of character

and therefore push more the 
inferior side into the shadow

the most famous example is dr jekyll and mr hyde

there that is a literary representation

where we can really see

how man and his shadow live together

and act upon each other

everybody casts a shadow so to speak

by the very fact that we are

for instance if we use a 
lot of intellectual thinking

our feeling will be relatively 
inferior or undeveloped

because we don't give it enough time

or somebody who works mostly with machines

and technical things tends to neglect his fantasy

his passive fantasizing or his artistic gifts

if we repress the shadow

we are only half people

that's why there are in literature such tales

that the devil steals the shadow from people

and then they are so to speak 
in the claws of the devil

because we need a shadow

the shadow is what keeps us down to earth

which reminds us of our incompleteness

and which also provides us with complementations

we would be very poor if we 
were only what we imagined to be

could you give us some examples
of where we see the shadow in everyday life

I would say whenever we are tired or under stress

another personality breaks through

for instance people who are 
very well meaning and helpful

suddenly become ruthlessly egocentric

push everybody else aside and become very nasty

also for instance when people 
have the flu or are ill

suddenly you see their shadow side coming through

or for instance people

you have people who are always in a good mood

and cheerful and enterprising

and one day they become 
suddenly like ill-tempered bears

and you have a feeling

I've never seen that person that way

there's a sudden change of character

that's the breaking through of the shadow

it can take on a thousand forms

or for instance you have a very good friend

and just and he lends you a book

and just that book your friend loses

that's the las thing he wanted to do

but his shadow wanted to play you a trick

that happens very often
when people are jealous of each other

then they play to the person 
of whom they are jealous

they play nasty tricks

they lose their objects or they 
don't keep the appointments

and so on

and they have the best of intentions

but their shadow plays a role

and does nasty tricks behind their own back

it's well known that for instance

policemen and criminals have a 
shadow relationship to each other

criminals are very good policemen

if one makes them into one

and many policemen fight their own shadow

in the outer form of criminals

and would have a criminal inclination themselves

if they weren't policemen and

and that is only one example

which is well known in criminalistics

and we have all our our favorite enemy

our best enemy so to speak

that is generally our shadow

if somebody gets on one's nerves without reason

if somebody does some harm to you

then you can say it's natural 
that you hate him or her

but if somebody doesn't do special harm to you

and you just feel madly irritated
every time that person enters the room

you could just spit at them

then you can be sure that's the shadow

the best way then is to sit down

and write a little paper on the 
characteristic of that person

and then look at it and say that's me
I have done that once when I was 18

and I blushed so that I was 
sweating blue in the face

when I had done that

it's a real shock to see one's shadow

well about three days ago
I had a dream which involved a tiger

that suddenly appeared in my house

and the tiger
I never really actually saw his body

all I actually saw was the head

and in our house at

here at eaton we have long long passages

with doors on either side 
of our own individual rooms

I remember being in the bathroom

and this tiger was trying to grab me

around the door

it had its head right underneath the door

and his neck was thin enough
to actually get underneath the door

I remember standing there
pushing really really hard against the door

I wasn't particularly frightened it just 
appeared to me to be really against me and I

I wasn't particularly frightened of 
it I just didn't want it to come in

friends at the other end of the bathroom
weren't at all worried about it

and I was the only person 
that actually had any qualms

about this tiger trying to get in

the more the people are righteous
and therefore never live their shadow side

the more they project it

the others are always the evildoers

and that's why they live in
a constant righteous indignation

and really hunting down their own shadow
in the form of the outer person

I just can't stand it if someone's got it wrong
and I know that I've got it right

I do have a temper yeah

clergymen are very problematic natures

because the community expects them
to always be mild and friendly

and helpful and virtuous

and the poor man or woman
has a shadow too naturally

so then they can't live their shadow

and if they live it the whole 
community howls against them

and so they generally spend 
their relationship to evil

by seeing it in other people 
and preaching against it

is that too poisonous

dr von franz why are we so often chased
or threatened in our dreams

very often shadow figures pursue us burglars

all sorts of enemies pursue us

and in general one can say that
if something in the dream pursues us

it wants to come to us if only we could

it demonstrates that something which belongs to us

and wants to come towards us
but we are afraid of it

and by being afraid we lend it an evil figure

could we turn around and accept it
it would probably become more benevolent

naturally all rules about dream 
interpretation are paradoxical

we are sometimes pursued by 
powers in the unconscious

where in the dream we can only escape

it is right to escape

there are destructive tendencies in the psyche
which we have to avoid

but 80 percent of what pursues us in dreams
really wants to come towards us

I had this the damnedest dream I was 
up at the cottage out in the woods

with my then girlfriend who's now my wife

and a mutual friend of ours 
who helped build a cottage

in fact he's a really 
down-to-earth wood-sy kind of fella

really really good person

and the three of us are up there in the woods
and suddenly this hairy ape creature appears again

and it's making a pass at my girlfriend

and I didn't like that at all and
I was I was ready to lunge at it

when this friend of ours 
puts his hand on my shoulder

and says wait a minute

I'll help you
we'll take care of this together

and we'll get rid of them

and I looked around and I said
no I'll deal with them

my girlfriend right

so I went out at this hairy ape creature
and I started talking to it

telling it no you can't have her
she's mine

and it turned out to be quite reasonable
I was quite surprised

and it turned around
and walked back into the woods

the shadow is not at all 100 percent evil

I have already mentioned 
that in criminals sometimes

they have even noble personalities as a shadow

but even in the ordinary man in our civilization

the shadow is very often a kind of harmless brute

or the more natural man

the man without good manners
the nature person

but not at all an evil person

and even something likable
and very important to have with one

our ego is by our education 
forced to wear a lot of masks

and to behave in unnatural form

and therefore we repress all 
sorts of natural animal reactions

and simple human reactions out of politeness

and good manners and whatever 
the situation requires

for people to learn to know their shadow
and to live their shadow a bit more

it makes them generally more 
accessible and more natural

and more round and human all together

people without shadow who are perfect
inflict an inferiority on their surrounding

and irritate their surrounding
and that's why one is so relieved

if something nasty happens to them
and says thank god he's also only human

I've noticed that analysts try to be
very correct with their patients

but sometimes there's a slip off

and I've often noticed that when I produce
a real slip off in an analytical hour

and the patient can make me powerful reproaches
it improves our relationship

because the analysands feel
after all von franz is only human

and now I feel above her and I'll pardon her

and that's a good feeling

and then one has a more natural human being
to human being relationship

the shadow is really our best social function

it integrates us into the group

with our good qualities we are above the group

with our shadow we are man among men
and human all too human

and that is why the shadow is very often
in dreams represented as something important

or which one should love or accept or
not scorn but fully accept within oneself

I was in a large house
a mansion as it's called

and there's a exhibition
of paintings and drawings there

and in a series of large rooms
and the artist is a man called sczabo

and I remember this very clearly s c z a b o

a name that means absolutely nothing to me

and yet the paintings the drawings of animals
sort of seem familiar

and then I was in another room
large room outside the exhibition

a lot of people there my host was there

it was obvious we were getting 
ready for a cocktail party

and someone comes up to me

a man and says what costume
what coat are you gonna wear

and starts to hand me a painter's smock
and I say no that's not me

how would you account for
the man in the dream offering you a smock

well that's probably the 
costume I should be wearing

if I were going to get serious
about some of the things I should do

returning to the idea of projecting the shadow

is that what lies behind the scapegoat

it is well known from group dynamisms

that it is so terribly awkward
to live and to be aware of one's own shadow

that if somebody else within a group
or let's say in a family does something nasty

everybody is relieved because now 
you can say it's the other who did it

we have a proverb the good man pays great 
attention if the other does also evil

so they can say ah it's the other it's not me

and that plays a great role in 
the so-called scapegoat psychology

and how in certain groups 
and mainly also in a family

sometimes one child or one member of the 
family takes on the role of doing all the evil

the other would like to do and don't dare to do

and then the others push that person 
more and more into that evil role

and probably even in the criminal 
in society has a similar role

he's like a negative redeemer he redeems 
society from having to face its own shadow

because then they can say it's 
that fellow who did the murder

I only wished to do it but didn't dare to do it

and so if somebody has a 
weak personality a weak ego

he can even succumb to suggestions
and do act out shadow things which

other people really wish

our desire it's very difficult in 
the shadow side of our personality

we are very much mixed up 
with the surrounding world

and it's very difficult and therefore 
it is very important to know our shadow

and to keep it out of the group phenomenon

otherwise we weigh down our surrounding
with all our unlived nasty qualities

and that's why for instance in the antiquity

the old greeks and the old 
jews and many other populations

have the idea of a purification of 
the community by choosing some people

scape goats and sacrificing them 
or driving them out into the desert

and they take all the sins 
of the community with them

they carry the projection
they are the shadow they pay for it

and then the others feel 
so to speak all right again

and perhaps some people can also remember

that at a party these as they say 
the devil certainly got into them

and with a little bit of alcohol 
they suddenly misbehave terribly

and the next morning when they wake up

they can't understand how 
they did all these things

and said all these things they said

that is generally not only a 
breakthrough of their own shadow

but of the group shadow

the evil of they acted out not only their own evil
but the evil of all other people as well

would you talk about nazi germany in that regard

they projected mainly the shadow on to the jews
that was the scapegoat

and they accused the jews 
mainly of being greedy for money

sensuously seducing and defiling all their women

and striving for world power

the nazis clearly struggle for world power
money was their aim number one even

if a jew gave a lot of money
then he was elected to be not jew

with money they threw over all their principles

and they defiled their own women
by turning them into

cows who had to produce soldiers

no recognition of the woman
as a human being in nazism at all

so you can see all these things
which they mainly accused the jews of

were just what they were doing

or for instance at the beginning of the war
hitler said of churchill

that criminal who pulls one little 
country of europe after the other

into his powers and ruins it pablo who did that

could you tell me a dream which 
reveals the creative side of the shadow

I remember a man who had a great gift in writing

and who should have written his 
thesis for the jung institute

and he had always dreams that 
powerful animals pursued him

and I interpreted that that his 
creativity wanted to reach him

but he didn't accept it he 
always said it was sexuality

now actually he had a woman friend
and had very satisfactory and lots of sex

and therefore I didn't believe his interpretation
but he didn't want and couldn't

till he dreamt that he was pursued by a bull
and he ran and ran and the bull was after him

coming closer and closer
and in the last minute he jumped over a fence

and the bull stood still 
and went on to his hind legs

and he looked back and saw 
the erected penis of the bull

and it was a ball point

so I said now there you are

after that he wrote an excellent thesis

in working with the mother the mother archetype

it's very important to remember
that the feminine is a force of nature

an energy that can either 
give life or take it away

children attempting to function in an atmosphere

that cannot sustain life 
suffer bodily and psychically

they fear life itself

the compensating dream will be of a loving mother

now other children blessed with parents 
who are able to give them the honey of life

may have strong positive feminine images
compensating for the loss in the culture

the one is an individual loss
the other a cultural loss

the full moon is one of those radiant images
that can bring the dreamer into himself

then take him off the ground into a
universal world of stars and spheres

and he can become lost in 
the harmony of that space

it is very important with such dreams
that you recognize the compensation

essential to stay on the ground
and not be lost in the harmony of the spheres

every man has a girl of his dreams
a divine image of beauty and perfection

jung called a man's inner woman his anima
which is latin for soul

she animates life she
can inspire a man or devour him

but whether he likes it or not

it's the male's fate to 
pursue his soul through life

we're constantly searching 
for the girl of our dreams

oh last night I dreamed
that his girlfriend

showed up at the kite stand today

and we were all going to go on the boat
we were supposed to go out on his brother's

boat and I thought she showed up
and I thought it was really strange

because yesterday he told her to go fly a kite

not you know he didn't want to be with her anymore
and I thought here she is again

that's all I remember

dreams I have good ones
my dreams are usually things sexual

they usually come true yeah

usually about my girlfriends

and the normal dreams of a 
man are surely about wives

you see absolutely normally

do you have any dreams

yeah wet ones

this was a fairly nasty idea
but she came up slowly towards me

and she sat down next to me you see

and at this moment I became 
acutely aware of her presence

because I could feel

her wet leg against my wet leg
and I could feel my heart beating against

this you have a dream girl

oh yeah I got a dream girl

who's your dream girl

marlene

who

oh I forgot her last name she's going to kill me

brown sun tan blue eyes
blonde typical californian girl

that's why we're here

no I can't I have to see

her then I know what kind of girl it is

have you ever seen her in california
no

when I'd see her I'd know her

other than that I won't make any commitments

serious here no not yet

I'm still looking though

the girl in my dream I'm married to

oh she's about five foot five 130 pounds

built pretty nice benjamins is 36 24 36 healthy

I was walking along a city street
in the rain mid afternoon with a friend

I don't know who the friend was
except that it was a man

we looked up and to the left
to our left was an empty window dark

to the right was another window
in which sat a young woman in her early twenties

she had long mousy brown hair 
pulled back in a ponytail

it was greasy and almost dead

her face too was dead
there was no expression in it at all

she simply sat staring out into the street
and yet not staring at anything

there was no focus in her eyes often
I wish I knew

I've dreamt about every kind of woman imaginable

I've dreamt about marilyn monroe mcqueen

beautiful one at a well
my mother

virgins
prostitutes

fat ones
thin ones

black ones

white ones
I have even dreamt about you

how is a man supposed to make sense
out of this incredible number of

forms that his femininity takes in his dreams

the anima has many stages
and embraces a great range of psychological facts

jung once divided it in four
eve helena mary and sophia the wisdom of god

eve would be the biological woman
and when she appears as an anima

she would be the biological sex
the physical attraction motherhood

the image of the ordinary attractive female

helena is on a higher stage
she would represent the hetaira

as the greeks for instance developed
a type of their form of geishas the hertaira

cultivated women with whom one
had not only a sexual adventure

but with whom one exchanged poetry
and philosophical conversations

where the man had also a 
spiritual companion in the woman

a companionship together with romantic sex

the next stage is the anima figure
of the virgin mary in christianity

which is the highest form of spirituality

but a bit one-sidedly too high up

the virgin mary is lacking 
the dark eve side of woman

the earthy side of woman
so it is a bit too lofty an ideal

and when the church abolished the cour d’amour

they forced the knights to 
worship the virgin mary instead

and at the same time they began the witch hunting

that means the dark side the shadow side
or the more biological and wilder

the more natural side of the anima

is too much excluded from 
the ideal of the virgin mary

and therefore the fourth stage
is the wisdom of god

it is as jung smilingly quoted

a come down because wisdom is 
not most virtuous spirituality

it is closer to life

it would be when a man knows how to love women
and knows how to relate to women

but not but having wisdom
at the same time the wisdom

which protects him from their devouring side

the highest form of love
is also something with a grain of salt in it

and what do you mean by that I won't say

and where do you see the anima 
manifest in life on a primitive level

it is it appears in men generally
as an element of romantic unreal

mostly sexual fantasies

and you see for instance in puberty
when young men are very active

and then suddenly they become passive and dreamy
and they are not there

and their performance
in school goes down tremendously

and one has the feeling where is that
where has that young man disappeared

he's in the clutches up to the neck of daydreaming
sexual fantasies

in that age it is a normal transition

but if a man gets stuck
in indulging in wishful sexual fantasies

he literally falls into the hand of a vampire

he loses his capacity of 
taking his own life in hand

he loses his will power
he loses all his male efficiency

and he just daydreams all this time
about women and their curves

and would be romantic adventures and so on
he lives in an unreal life

I saw once a man who was 43
still living with his mother

who had never approached a woman

I asked him what on earth
are you doing with your sex

and he gave a secretive smile and didn't confess

he just masturbated widely every night

and then he dreamt that he was in 
daytime living an ordinary life

but in the night time he was 
living on a luscious island

where he had wild sexual adventures with women

that was a fantasy world 
into which he had disappeared

in a primitive tribe one would 
say such a man has been bewitched

he's bewitched

we would say he's locked into 
an infantile attitude to life

he's being devoured by the mother

would you tell us some of the rituals
which primitive societies had to

break that dependency on the symbolic mother

all the big transitions in life
in all societies have been accompanied

by what gennep calls rite de passage
rites of transition

to make a ritual to help people
to make the step over the threshold

now the most famous one
which has been studied mostly by ethnologists

is the ritual of initiation

where the young men are initiated 
into the secrets of the tribal law

and into the secrets of sexuality
and they have to leave mother in their home

they are secluded in the bush

they are symbolically 
devoured by a maternal monster

they are reborn they have to 
generally stand a lot of tortures

they are sometimes also homosexually 
assaulted by the older men

with the idea of injecting them masculinity

and then they are generally 
at the same time instructed

with the secret law of the tribe
and the religious traditions

and if somebody a young man
has undergone all this ritual of transition

then he is afterwards a full member of the tribe
is a man

and many tribes call the ones who are afraid
or for some other reason not initiated

they say he's not initiated
he's an animal

meaning he has remained completely unconscious

he has remained in an unconscious animal condition

he's not really made this step to being human

are there any societies where 
there is no right of passage

where men remain in that state 
of dependency on the mother

where they stay animals

well we have not many sociological matriarchies

but I read once a book about 
the south american indian tribe

where there was a actually sociological
not religious but sociological matriarchy

and there the women were happy fat whores
ordering the men about a

nd the men were lean submissive nervous creatures

who were planting the fields 
and doing the work for the women

kind of porter's figures and

positively wealth the world of the drives
sexuality earthly happiness was blossoming

and negatively there was no spirit whatsoever
a world of total stupidity so to speak

of only living
living very agreeably but not thinking

or having any ideas or 
spiritual realizations at all

and the men accordingly unhappy and submissive
and rather poor creatures

but generally these things balance back and forth
there will be another generation of men

who will in male protest again
put the things into a middle position

or try to put the things in the middle position

it the ideal is seems to be

not that either the men dominate
or the women dominate

but that there is a kind of equal relationship
and a balance of opposites

this demon woman this devouring mother
how does she come together in a man's unconscious

in the first place the devouring mother
on the personal level

would be the fact that many women
who are over caring for their children

try to keep them back from life

it begins by being anxious

don't do that it's dangerous
don't do that it's dangerous

don't go to play out with the boys
you could fall and wound

or you get hit over the head

and by trying to keep the children 
too much in their clutches

and then we speak of devouring mothers

and such mothers also have trouble
when their sons and daughters begin to date

girls or boys

they say I'm very much wishing that you married

and I'm very glad but that 
one that girl you bring home

now that no that is not the right girl for you
or that's not the right boy for you

so they keep the children in their clutches

but that is only the foreground of a woman

who has exaggerated her 
maternal protective qualities

there's also an archetypal background

when a man idealizes a woman
and projects his anima onto her

he gives her tremendous power

why is it dangerous for women 
to identify with that projection

or like marylin monroe
to become the love goddess

and live out his desires

because as we know
rom the life history of marilyn monroe

she did not live her own life
she acted all the time the anima of men

generally there are women
and that is ultimately due to the power drive

when women discover that if they are beautiful
they can exert a magic power over men

then they take to acting all the time the anima

we are even in our jargon sometimes talking
about anima women

those are women who find out
how to act the anima to men

but because this is not love
but pure power drive it is destructive

to the men and to themselves
because it's

using the guise of love for worldly power

such women want to rule the men
they want the men to be all at their feet

and then they naturally are unhappy
because they don't feel loved

I remember when I was young
sometimes when a man projected his anima onto me

and was pursuing me
and giving me presents and so on

I had the distinct feeling
but that fellow doesn't know me at all

he's chasing an image I wanted to look back

who is he chasing
it's not me as a human being

he doesn't see and so

if a woman falls into the 
trap of acting out the anima

she can exert a tremendous power over men
but at the same time inwardly she's frustrated

because those men love her image
they don't love her

so she's really very lonely underneath
and that's what caught up with poor marilyn monroe

and does this woman who's playing the anima
does she just fulfill a man's needs

anything he wants she does
or how does it work

it works as long as it is an adventure
or a love affair

then she fills out his needs
but when he has to live with her

if he marries her and has to 
live with her in everyday life

then comes the trouble

a
she will play the

anima to all the other men as well
and he'll not like that

and secondly

he'll suddenly discover that 
underneath that beautiful mask

there is no human being
there's no warmth

there's no possibility of a human relationship

so to marry an anima figure is most disappointing

that these women who play
that are called by the french femme fatal

women who ruin men

if a man has this mother complex
then how does he experience women in real life

if a man has a too close tie to his mother

then he especially a positive one 
then he tends to idealize women

he sees in every woman the beatrice of dante
so to speak or the virgin mary

and then such men cannot approach women
again with their lower parts with sexuality

and in ordinary human life they 
have a split anima situation

they admire very unapproachable 
lofty beautiful girl from afar

and satisfy their sexual desires with prostitutes

and cannot bring the two ends together

they cannot put the princess
and the bitch together so to speak in their psyche

and that is generally due to 
a too close tie to the mother

in the man he has to free himself from the mother

that's why for instance in 
one of the famous examples

of such a princess in the tower r
apunzel

she is imprisoned by a witch
it's the mother figure behind the scene

which brings forth the constellation
and then both lovers cannot meet on earth

and only when rapunzel has come down on earth
and he has erred around in the desert

in misery and pain
can they finally meet

is

hold it down some men find their 
devouring mother out in life

in corporations universities or

institutions of some kind
I think one element of the devouring

mother archetype
is what one would call inertia

all big institutions have the 
tendency towards a certain inertia

they are not flexible and therefore 
they are so to speak material blocks

situations which are just so

and as soon as far as men have a mother complex
they feel

well the universities were in 
the past called almae matres

the benevolent mothers

and we see that whenever you have an institution

people tend to be infantile and 
to suck that institution for money

to ask for loans and stipendia

and to use them as benevolent mothers
and so

the mother can easily be the devouring mother

can be easily

projected onto a plant or a big organization
or an institute or a university

they have even feminine names

and if in former times when one represented them

when one represented the alma mater as a fat woman

and america is still represented by a fat woman

at least she's holding up a light
that's making it a bit better

but is there a light on top of 
that fat old woman everywhere

I look I see the principle of 
mother relatedness is breaking down

the institutions that once contained us
the church family marriage

even the economy
no longer provides that security

where do you see the light

well I would say through the panic feeling
of the danger of a nuclear war

for instance you see that people and

through the suddenly realizing 
the problem of pollution

there has been a basic change in many
mainly the young people

but also I think already my generations
was fully aware of that

we will have to basically change 
our way of life in some way

there is still a lot of 
quarreling and discussing how

and why and in what form and so on

but I think everybody agrees

we have to find some way 
of peacefully live together

and not destroy each other by a nuclear war

we have to deal differently with nature
than we have done up till now

and we have to change our 
too rational mode of life

I would say that is going through

if you think of a book of marilyn ferguson

the aquarian conspiracy
you see that

this book only gives the 
absolute surface of things

the only superficial aspect
that you see that everywhere

there is a parallel change of attitude which
with the german word one expresses a zeitgeist

a spirit of the time in history
this is well known for instance

if you look at the art of the 13th century
as compared to the renaissance art

you see how much the spirit of the time
has changed in those few hundred years

certainly that as if 
collectively the whole mankind

has a different outlook

in the medieval art everything 
is concentrated on the divine

there's no perspective there's 
practically no landscape

there's no representation of 
animals trees and worldly things

and then in the renaissance
suddenly this switch to discovering nature

the human body the perspective of space and time
of space the different building

now we are that is only a very striking change
which everybody knows in retrospect

but such a striking change seems to me
to be constellated again today

and that's why naturally
keenly interested intellectual people

cannot avoid asking the question
what is the change of our time

what is our situation
especially under the threat of a nuclear war

which preoccupies practically everybody's mind

there is a kind of desperate look at the sky

what does it mean
how could we change what is coming

what is ahead of time

this kind of anxiety is everywhere

we are still living in an 
age or at the end of an age

where the opposite jupiter and saturn
good and evil spirit

and instinctual physical drive

are in great opposition
we are torn apart by opposites

which in political terms could 
amount to any minute having a war

you have even on one side of the iron curtain
an anti-christian principle ruling

and on the other side officially 
still a christian outlook ruling

so the iron curtain is dividing 
jupiter and saturn so to speak

that's only the worst
the earthly image of what is happening

on a much deeper level
in the human psyche of every individual

mother nature is the womb of all life

she gives endlessly without reservation
but she's also the tomb

she kills and devours all living things

in childhood a man looks
to his mother to fulfill his needs

but in entering adulthood
he puts behind those childhood expectations

the passage isn't easy and many men get stuck
they remain eternal sons

locked in a state of dependency on the mother
the passage rite is called slaying the dragon

dr von franz what are nightmares
why do we have them

well nightmares are really you could say
most substantially vital important dreams

they wake you up with a cry
they are the electroshock nature uses on us

when nature wants to wake us up

the word nightmare comes from mare

and the idea was that an evil ghost
in form of a black horse or so on

was riding you in the night
and then you woke up with a cry

and woke up completely exhausted
the waking up point of a dream means the bang

with which the unconscious says
now that is it now attend to that

and so the nightmare is really shock therapy

it wants to shock us out of 
a deep unconscious sleepiness

about some dangerous situation

when we have nightmares it means
we are in a psychological danger of some sort

and much too sleepy and unaware about it
and then we have a nightmare to wake us up

the nightmare has a characteristic 
of a certain urgency

as if the unconscious would say look here

that problem is urgent

for instance they are 
naturally the incubus succubus

that means the male partner
attacking a woman in the dream or vice versa

shows the sexual problem is urgent
has to be attended to has to be made conscious

one cannot just push it aside
and pretend it doesn't exist

we filmed a dream that presents
precisely that problem

the anima is very selective
but she's very dangerous

well this was a most unusual dream
in my way of thinking

because it brought me in contact
and also to realize that certainly within the mind

there exists most certainly a vampire or a

vampires are such but certainly 
they do exist in the mind

let's say and the dream began very strangely
when out of the rain and darkness

appears this very beautiful brazilian lady
and she had a wollen

it may have been a very dark green woolen coat
down to her ankles

very thick and heavy
and her hair was black and she was beautiful

and her and coats were wringing wet
as a result of being out in the rain

and this didn't seem to bother her
so she came towards me

towards my right
and she's standing in front of me

and that moment in time something told me
that I met this woman before

in fact something hinted to me that
maybe she really was a vampire

and not so beautiful as she appeared to 
be I was hesitant to do anything about her

and she smiles and beckons
that I come towards her

but I was resistant and

she opened the coat finally
and she had a beautiful bikinI on

and her body was very black and beautiful
and shiny in the rain

and I was very tempted
and finally I went over to her

and I put my arms around her in 
an embrace I looked at her mouth

and I noticed that the front 
two front teeth were missing

which gave me a clue that 
maybe she really was a vampire

but I wasn't absolutely positive
and she says john she said

I don't want your hand I want your penis
I want you to make love to me

that's oh and way no way because if I do that
then I'll be lost once I enter into her

she'll be becoming a real vampire
and then I'll be finished

and so I decide to withdraw
and resist the temptation

and I move backwards
towards the door of my house

she's very angry at this
and

I still now that she's so angry
I see hold of a screwdriver I wanted to go away

I don't want her around me
and I rattle her teeth with this screwdriver

and at that point in time it's then that I noticed
that the side teeth have in fact grown

and extended themselves down to about here
and they are really fangs

in fact she really is a vampire
and I wasn't mistaken

and I'm even more afraid
so I turn to my right and I run into the house

and I attempt to lock the door

and somehow or other
the door doesn't seem to lock very well

and I don't know whether I'm locking the door
or whether I'm unlocking the door

and then something tells me
that the mechanism of the door lock

is in fact faulty

then it suddenly occurs to me
that no matter even if I lock the door

this vampire has the ability 
of transforming itself

from whatever person to 
whatever person it wants to

so there's really no escape

the anima is the archetype of life
and it is when the anima is negative

it is the impulse to dream about life
and to make wishful fantasies about life

instead of living life

and that's why vampires and draculas
and the creatures alike always suck one's blood

the blood is the emotional affect
the affect psyche

and such people have no activity left
or no life activity left t

hey just sink into a passive wishful dream

the dream tries to tell him
it's a ghost which is haunting me

because actually he's haunted not by realities
haunted by a fantasy

which is draining his whole psychic energy

at the end of the dream
the man's unable to escape from the vampire

that's going to suck the blood out of him
how would you interpret that

that is really the characteristic
of most negative or split off complexes

if we reject or split off 
some complex of our psyche

then it begins to sap our energy secretly

behind our back so to speak

and then it turns slowly into

what is aptly represented 
by the image of the vampire

something which attacks us in the night
and sucks all our blood

people feel they don't know 
they come into analysis

and they say I feel listless
I just feel tired I just don't want to do anything

I wake up already in the morning depressed
nothing means anything to me anymore

we could answer to them
you are probably sucked by a vampire

you are bloodless
you have no life impulse

no pleasure in life anymore
no interest or anything

and then you generally find
that this vampire is just a split of complex

which has been split off so radically

and so powerfully that it 
can only sap energy anymore

it cannot manifest in any other way anymore

why are the movies about
death goddesses and vampires so popular

I think all movies which touch 
essential psychological facts

the movies nowadays more or less
replace the fairy tale telling

and the myth telling
it's our modern form of myth and fairy tales

and therefore movies which 
tell about the inner world

like fairy tales do are much 
more attractive to the public

because we really need myths
to have an orientation

or to have mapping out the dream world
or the unconscious

and in past time
there were the innumerable myths of vampires

which fascinated people
tales retold all over the world

in china for instance
you have a whole host of ghost stories

where a man meets a fox
and then the fox turns

he is really the ghost of a dead
and turns up as a beautifully meet-up girl

and he has a marvelous life with her

till one day he discovered 
that she is an evil demon

she is a skeleton
and then sometimes he dents a badge

she pulls him into death

or he can
with the

help of priests and magicians
free himself from the demon

and we for instance in the swiss alps

we have stories that our cowherds
high up in the mountain

who have to live there the whole summer alone
without having women

every night the dokkerli comes

that is a female ghost
comes through the door invisibly

and rides them all the night
so that they have sexual pollutions

and in the morning they wake up
completely exhausted

and can't practically move anymore
overwhelmed so to speak by sexual fantasies

and by the unlived life

if the man's feelings
are locked in to the mother complex

if his life is being sucked away by the vampire
then how can he transform those feelings

how can he get free of the mother complex

I once made the dream of a young man
who was living still with mama

he was 29 and had never had a girl in his room

and so we seriously discussed the possibility
of getting a room outside his mother's home

and he was terrified
he was a very sensitive delicate boy

and his mother was a very 
brutal strong personality

and he was just terrified of the moment

to tell mother look here I am 
going to take a room outside

and I'm not going to live with you anymore
and when he was kind of trying to make up his mind

he dreamt that he had to slay the dragon
so that in that case it means actually that

though it seems such a to us little thing
to tell mother I have to room for him

that was slaying the dragon

it was overcoming a monstrous
neurotic difficulty within himself

his whole mother complex
not only facing the scene of his actual mother

but overcoming also the inertia
and the anxiousness of his own mother complex

his mother had sowed in him an anxiousness
a fear of life

he had to overcome a terrific fear of life
to make that step

and that is an archetypal motive
all over the place

that the young man
has to do the heroic deed of killing his mother

or the mother dragon or the mother demon

which is anxious or lazy or 
afraid of living a masculine life

now I'd like to introduce you to one of my women

she was in a dream that I had
when I was studying here in zurich

and I think I might be interested
in what you have to say about her

in this dream I was walking beside a jungle area

and a rolling green sort of 
velt land beside the jungle

with a gorgeous black woman
and we had known each other for a long time

some way or other and I called her my goddess
it was my pet name for her

nd she said I got a problem
and I didn't understand what she meant

and she took her dress and buried her shoulder
and she was peeling from the sun

and under there the top skin came off
underneath the black it was white

and she said if I keep seeing you
it's going to happen all over my body

she says I've got to talk to my mother
get some advice from her and what to do

and I didn't know what to do
and we walked on

and there were some firm implements

still by this jungle
and all of a sudden

two black guys came running out of the jungle

and they were going to take her 
back to the village in the jungle

and I said to them hell I'd rather die
than have that happen

you're not going to do that
and they just came at me

and I said I mean it
I said I'm gonna I'll fight you

but you're not gonna take her back

and I had some crazy wild courage
that I wish I had for real life

and I took these two guys on
and I woke up winning

I was winning and it really felt good
when I woke up

this transformation of this beautiful black woman

on a hot summer day reminds 
one of very old tradition

if you remember the song of solomon begins I am 
black but beautiful daughters of zion and so on

there is the black shulamite

who is transformed also later 
according to medieval tradition

into a white woman

she is redeemed by christ
into becoming a white woman

by her bridegroom
and this motif has played a tremendous role

also in the legend of the queen of sheba
the ancestress of the ethiopian kings

she is a black woman
who came to meet solomon

and she was identified with the shulamite
of the song of solomon

and she was negroess
who was the beloved of a white man

and that has always fascinated western mythology
this transformation

this meeting the black woman
and transforming her into a white woman

in time you have it also in the grail legend

where in wolfram von eschenbach

feI refuse the best friend and half 
brother of possible marries bella carne

she's the daughter of a white man
and a black woman

and she's speckled black and white

and has a speckled son phi of his

the mixing of black and white
the mixing of the opposites

of the light and the dark in alchemy
in alchemical tradition

also the transformation of the shulamite
or the queen of sheba plays a tremendous role

it's one of the big recurring 
fantasies of the alchemist

that the first matter which they want to transform

into gold is black and is 
compared to a black woman

which takes off her skin or black garment
and then transforms into pure gold

and here she has a golden white skin
there is even the allusion to the gold

to this transformation

these black garments represent

a typical feature of an 
undeveloped and inner anima figure

that would mean

that his whole capacity of 
love is mostly autoerotic

when a man has not developed his anima
his feminine side is generally very narcissistic

that's what women painfully feel
that when a man in love

is meowing under her window
like a tomcat in love

he really loves his own fantasy
he loves his own being in love

but there's a long way for him
to learn to love her

and not enjoying his own being in love
and if you read in literature

a young man
when he generally discovers the experience of love

it's mostly a completely auto-erotic fantasy

out of which he has through a painful development

learn to love the woman
not as the object of his romantic fantasies

but as a human partner

what does this inner transformation mean

in terms of the man's relationship 
to an actual woman in outer life

the peeling of the black anima
and her transformation in a white golden anima

is the transformation of the 
loving capacities of a man

of a transformation of his eros

from a primitive autoerotic fantasy
into a true human capacity for love

as soon as this transformation takes place

he then is attacked by primitives 
who want to keep the woman

that she should remain black
and stay with the blacks in a black village

so there is a strong primitive tendency
to relapse again into the old attitude

but the dreamer can successfully fight it off

what happens if the man's 
feelings are not transformed

he stays locked into the 
maternal mode of relationship

with a woman fulfilling his needs and fantasies
or a corporation or an institution

or a university some other substitute

is he in fact living out the oedipal myth

the oedipal myth is a very complicated thing
in spite of what the freudians say

and one cannot really look at it
separately from the greek tradition

that when a man has to overcome the mother demon
and that was the moment

when oedipus had to answer 
the riddle of the sphinx

who is a maternal mother demon

a devouring mother figure

he did it by giving a witty intellectual answer

that is a way how certain men
escape the devouring mother

they don't do not slay the dragon
they outwit the dragon so to speak

nowadays those are the men
who study theoretical physics

and become very intelligent
and knowing all the mathematics

and therefore having a realm
a masculine realm of their own

where their mother cannot follow them

they build up a kind of mental masculine world

such an escape into the intellectual
or scientific realm has been for instance done

by the society around socrates and plato in greece
that was an escape into a pure men's society

of philosophers and scientists among themselves
and we know that they were mostly homosexual

or that socrates didn't get on 
with his wife xanthippe at all

had a very unhappy marriage

in other words the problem of the feminine
and the getting away from the mother

is only seemingly achieved
there must be another round

in the battle with the great mother
and that is what the oedipus myth mirrors

oedipus thinks he has answered 
the riddle of the sphinx

and happily goes off having outwitted her

and she even in her evil witch-like behavior
pretends to commit suicide

so to give him that illusion

now I've overcome the mother 
with the powers of the mind

and he just runs into marrying his own mother
with all the tragedy and the divine punishment

which befalls him on account of that

so this myth shows
that the masculine intellectual overcoming

of the devouring powers of the unconscious
is not enough

it has to be done by the way one lives
not by the way one thinks

just as it wouldn't help the young man
who has to take a room to for himself

to understand that he has a mother complex

and that all his neurotic 
symptoms comes from his mother tie

he has to actually take the other room
and stand the battle

if he takes the other room
does he have to understand why he's doing it

yes certainly otherwise at the next occasion
when he runs out of money

he moves back to mama again

perhaps he finds a disagreeable 
landlady in his first room

so he moves back home again

he has to understand why he does it
and that it is vitally essential for him

that it is not just a technical change in his life

the feminine side of a man's personality

is his feeling relationship 
with himself and with life

and we have many symbols in our society
which carry the projection of men's feelings

the poet shelley for example he projected

his feelings of loneliness 
and alienation onto the moon

he asked if she was pale from weariness
of climbing heaven

the moon also carries the 
projection of a rising feminine

in the stream of this university professor
I was driving in a car with a young woman

at the beginning of the dream
she seemed to be a particular person I know

in fact a student former student of mine

and the central part of the 
dream involved an episode

where I could look out through the top of the car

it was at night and see
the whole dome of the sky very vividly

and the stars seem to be extremely close

I could see them not as points of light
but as spheres as solid spheres

and I could make out all kinds of detail

such as the rings on planets 
like saturn and jupiter

which one wouldn't normally see

even in the dream itself I remember
being very struck by this very impressed by this

I remember remarking to my companion

that it would be a beautiful 
night for going for a walk

this dream begins
I'm driving by night with a female companion

it is therefore he is not at home

he is not in his professional 
situation at the university

he's not milling around in a pub with other people
he is driving at night with a female companion

and there one could then ask him
how does one feel in such a situation

that's a situation where one relaxes
where one thing where one puts aside

the ones daily worries

one is open to nature
one is open to seeing something new

or depends on the relationship 
to the feminine companion

what else one has in mind

but it suggests also a rather 
possibly a love situation

or at least a situation of positive companionship

in contrast to intellectual effort
or social amusement or so on

and it is night then we have to ask ourselves
what is it in the night

again in the night we are inclined to be more open
more romantic more reflective

because our attention is not drawn away
by telephones and outer things

it is a moment of relaxed reflection in general

where also the feeling and the repressed
other sides of the personality come up

and now he looks up to the sky

the sky is has always been
one of the most fascinating sights for mankind

and if we go into the history of mankind

the stars have always been 
divine figures gods even

the bushmen in the kalahari desert
see in every star constellation the great hunter

or the great god in each constellation

and the stars is the realm where
according to myth week our soul comes from

and where it returns after death in the stars

and if you think of the history of astrology
and astrology has been spread not only in the west

but also in india china and everywhere

in all high civilizations we have 
astrological traditions there

the stars always served to 
prognosticate the future

to find out the future not only of a person

but of mankind

in china a whole group of astrologers
had to watch the sky day and night

and report to the emperor all signs in the sky
which were interpreted as relating to the fate

of the chinese empire

and in a similar way in antiquity
everything was seen in the sky

do you feel that the destiny of individuals

and societies is related to 
the constellation in the stars

the constellations in the sky
represent the background constellations

of great historical events
as if in our deeper unconscious

we are not isolated
we are linked up with the whole of mankind

we are and mankind is dreaming a dream along

which amounts for the changes in politics
and religion and everything

if you think only how much the outlook
of mankind has changed in the last 30 years

you see how such big collective changes take place

and to look at the sky
could therefore be seen

he's looking at the deeper constellations

constellations comes from the word stella star
the togetherness of stars

the deeper constellations
of collective and of his own personal life

why does the dreamer try
to find the constellation in the stars

he needs an orientation
where am I in this time what is my task

and so he looks up to the sky and sees
especially this combination of jupiter and saturn

now saturn as he's well known he's an evil doer

scorpion serpents the donkey 
and so on belong to his realm

he is a dark destructive spirit
and jupiter is in general the star of the kings

of the king of justice of a worldly expansion

of a royal personality of magnanimity

and all the positive qualities 
of a royal personality

so what the dream tells the dreamer is that
when he looks for the constellation of time

and naturally also of his own life
there is a combination of extreme opposites

it's a moment of change

where destructive and constructive forces
are constellated simultaneously

he's only first in the first part of the dream

only impressed by the beauty 
of the nocturnal scene

and proposes to go for a walk leave

the car and go for a walk
this is a big step forward

he gives up the mechanical way
of moving through life

and when you walk
you are in much closer touch with nature

but you are also very much slowed down
so you go step by step and you feel the country

you feel the earth you feel the trees
in the air around you much better

so that is the positive change
which comes around from this vision on the sky

this idea of finding his 
orientation in the night sky

is repeated in the second part of the dream
I was standing outside my parents house

which was in dover in england

and looking up at the sky at night

and I could see a moon

I think it was a partial moon
a crescent moon of some kind

with three very bright stars
grouped underneath it

more or less following the curve of the moon

this configuration struck me as very unusual
and I wanted to see it more closely

so I looked at it through 
some kind of lens arrangement

I think I had a simple lens in my hand

when I looked through the lens
at the moon and the stars

I then saw the moon as full
and the stars were visible behind the moon

through the actual substance of the moon

there were still three stars there
visible through the full moon

then as I continued to look 
I could see the moon divided

it was like the moon appears when it's crescent
but you can see the ghost form of the full moon

continuing around the crescent

but the two parts were more completely balanced
they were both substantial

and I thought of the division 
of the moon in this way

as some kind of yin yang symbol

this is the analogy that came to mind

the moon in historical tradition

was always looked at to dominate
the transient changeable world

above the moon in antiquity one thought
were the eternal constellations

the realm of the platonic ideas so to speak

where nothing changed or only in 
very long historical processes

while the moon is an ever-changing 
feminine constellation

it rules over the menstruation of women
of birth and death on earth

over the animals the tides and so on

this again can be seen as a collective situation
namely the coming up of the feminine archetype

the whole liberation movement of women on one side

but also a strong feminine element
coming up in the psychology of men

is a typical characteristic of our time

and that is shown in this 
constellation of the moon

the moon is now dominant

and the three stars

I would think that the three stars
represent the christian trinity

which are three male divine powers
and the fourth element is the moon the feminine

which is excluded

and when the christian tradition is characterized

as being purely patriarchal 
and purely spirit oriented

it does not include the feminine
the earth the body

and all that element which is now coming up

when he looks at it closer he sees then
that the three stars are behind the moon

as if they had disappeared behind the moon
and the moon is now covering

they are still shining through
but the moon is now in the forefront so to speak

and that would be a message
that now the feminine comes in the forefront

it's not the christian trinity anymore

the christian trinity is not eclipsed
but it has to step into the background

behind the feminine principle of the moon

but how does the dream portray the balance
between the feminine and masculine principles

he associates even in the dream
the drawing of the full moon

and the dividing line to 
where the actual new moon is

as the yin yang symbol

the well-known symbol of
the play of opposites in taoistic philosophy

in that case the dark side
would be dominant

and very close to triple topple over
again to the light side

that would be so to speak 
the crucial moment of time

where the dark side is dominant in our times

and now we'll turn over to a new light

at this point in the dream I went inside the house
and as soon as I'd gone inside

I had the feeling of being a little child 
again I was being left alone in the house

and I was worried about the 
door being locked securely

but at the back of the house
there were no stars visible

in fact the sky still had
the reddish glow of sunset

in fact the whole of the sky
had that deep red glow

I noticed at the back of the house
there was some activity going on

my father in fact was there

unloading some kind of material
from a truck at the back of the house

he seemed to be bringing in sand
or coal something like that

for this type of intellectual man
the tasks of everyday life

cooking sewing looking after the children

and money and so on is a heavy burden

and sand generally carries the association
of meaninglessness

and sterile earthly things

so to him up till now the 
earth is meaningless sterile

a bother so to speak which he drags along

if he has to and would like to avoid it that 
is already has been the problem of his father

and now he had to look after that problem of his 
father and it is as if the dream says the father

is with you that problem of your father is with 
you too you too have this problem and suddenly

the scene switches but the lorry is unloaded and 
that would be more of that coal or sand is coming

the heaps and heaps of earthly things are going 
to accumulate which he will have to deal with

and that is due to the fact that the moon is now 
dominating the scene now the feminine the changing

world is important and the moon has also to do 
with the body then the feminine has to do with

the body now he has to attend his physical life 
the scene then changed again in the dream and this

time I was in some kind of jet plane or 
rocket ship very very high up the stratosphere

is the identification that came to mind the 
sky still had that deep reddish glow to it

I was stretched out full length in the rocket 
ship somehow constrained by my having my thumbs

hooked into two rings I was alone in this 
craft except I had the sense my father was also

there I knew he was there although there 
was no explicit communication between us

um at various points while we were on this flight

other similar rocket ships craft came 
very close terrifyingly close in fact

but they never hit us there was no 
danger of apparently of a collision

then I became very very frightened about 
something I couldn't quite identify what the

what the problem was there was some 
physical sensation that was affecting me

I thought maybe it was hunger or thirst and it 
didn't seem to be that and eventually I decided

it was the extreme rarefication of the air 
that it was difficult to breathe that has to do

with the fact that the dreamer is a professor 
and that he has obviously a brilliant mind

and a far-sighted mind somebody who 
doesn't bother about little things but

goes really for the essentials of the 
problem in modern literature and his field

but he himself within that spaceship is terribly 
confined especially his thumbs are tight and

he can practically not move and it feels 
suddenly terribly uncomfortable the thumb

carry if you think of the fairy tale figure of 
the thumbling carries is the dwarf of the fingers

and has mainly to do with creativity with the 
creative fantasy and up till now he has obviously

confined his own creativity he's perhaps he 
should become a writer on his own instead of

studying the writing of other people or some in 
some other way become more artistically creative

the tumbling or the thumb is also the trickster it 
is a spirit which plays tricks to the dominating

bourgeois world and enjoys its freedom all this 
side the trickster side the mischievous side

and the creative side of his personality has 
been completely confined probably through his

professional situation and should now be liberated 
and so he suddenly realizes that he's confined in

his intellectual realm and that the air is very 
thin to breathe that we can leave as it is the air

in high up university circles is very thin 
to breathe and the creativity is hampered

so the positive message he receives from the 
dream in the end the last sentence is always

the solution if there is a solution says that he 
realizes he has to come down to earth he has to

leave the spaceship and turn to earth would 
you talk about how the dream relates not just

to his own personal life but to the much larger 
problem with the feminine in our time the dream

mainly first answers questions which he must have 
had in his conscious mind namely deep questions

what is the situation of our time in what kind of 
age do we live if you are concerned with modern

literature this naturally haunts you too because 
the whole of modern literature is concerned with

the problem of our time or most of it and poets 
have also always been prophets so there's always

a secret longing to read in modern literature the 
signs of the time so to speak and it answers that

and only towards the end of both dreams it returns 
to his life situation as if the dream would make

a big excursion into the situation of our time 
is that the feminine the body the earthly the

ever-changing material world is now becoming 
important and has to be lovingly attended to

and then the dream will go on and for you that 
means you should come out of your spaceship and

return to earth this dream closely parallels the 
dream of king gilgamesh that we looked at earlier

it seems strange that the dream 
of an ancient sumerian king

could be so closely connected to the problems of 
a modern dreamer would you compare the two dreams

the dreamer of this modern dream also is in 
the situation where the first half of life

the tasks of the first half of life have been 
fulfilled and now he's looking to the sky

for orientation and the first thing he sees is 
the conjunct conjunction of jupiter and saturn

which hasn't yet directly to do with him but 
only tells him that he belongs to the age of

extreme opposites and that saturn who is more 
linked with the animal man and the drives

and the spiritual men are in opposition 
or have to are in christianity not united

and then comes the second part of his dream 
where he sees the moon the feminine principle

and after that he realizes suddenly that he 
is in a spaceship and has to go down to earth

we can say that this realization at the end of 
his dream that he has to come down to earth is

exactly what gilgamesh had to realize 
after the star star had fallen upon him

namely he had to realize and make friends with the 
earthly man who by the way in gilgamesh epic first

attacked gilgamesh enki to attack gilgamesh 
they first had a big battle before they made

friends and then went for their heroic journey 
together and so we can expect that this dreamer

too will now have to meet the earthly man 
alluded to in the figure of his father who

is carrying a sack of sand or coals that is 
the load of earthly tasks and bodily existence

that he has to realize before he can go on to 
fulfill his fate and his faith will have to do

with an integration of the feminine principle 
which is the moon that is different to this

gilgamesh epic at that time the matriarchal world 
of unconsciousness had to be overcome by the hero

and nowadays after 4 000 years later the situation 
is reversed the feminine principle has to be

integrated but in both situations the star and the 
appearance of the star has to do with the fact of

trying to read or realize the unique meaning 
of one's own importance within the cosmos

we are just a particle of dust somewhere on a 
particle living on a particle of dust somewhere

in the cosmic universe and if we look from 
scientific and collective standards at our life

it is completely transient and meaningless but 
if we look within and if we look at the stars

then we come to realize that within that 
cosmic infiniteness we have a unique

task to fulfill which we generally experience 
as what we call the meaning of our life

now we've been dealing with the shadow as the same

gender as the ego we're going to move 
now to the contrasexual in the man

this of course is going to be the feminine 
the anima as jung called it the latin word for

soul that part which jung 
calls the archetype of life

that brings creativity joy the 
value of living into his life

the anima in her developed form connects a man to 
the source of his being that is his feelings are

individual they're connected to who he really 
is they're not just reactions to outer life

in these dreams we're going to see the feminine 
component of the male psyche transforming

into a link that connects the 
dreamer to the source of life

the streamer uses music to 
help understand the streams

lady lady on the cross was it I that 
crucified you and am I up there beside you

like a robber to deride you luster mix with draws

pregnant lady on the cross will 
the man child that's within you

bursting forth all stiffenings in sinews live his 
life but not unpin you gain but at what a cost

in this act I play the pilot 
lifting the curtain for a start

author and producer there's nothing finer 
than the babe of audience and stage designer

this is one of the most striking dreams I've ever 
had in my whole life and it's lived with me ever

since I had it I dreamt of a crucifixion in the 
medieval mystery play they were rehearsing the

play in a church in modern times and two actresses 
were nailing the christ figure to the cross

the cross was lying flat in the transept of the 
church in the middle and you could hear the sound

of nailing which was terrifying and yet somehow 
they weren't really nailing the person they were

tying onto the cross and then when that was 
finished they raised the cross up in the church

and the figure on the cross was very high 
it was extremely dangerous for that person

then the scene changes and it's the 
actual performance in the church

the actor who will play the christ comes 
solemnly processing down the church

and to my amazement it's a woman and not only 
that but it's a woman who is my wife although

not my actual wife in reality she comes down the 
church she's dressed in a just a simple grey cloak

held at the neck with a brooch and she's heavily 
pregnant and the whole crucifixion scene is

repeated as in the rehearsal and she's raised up 
high it's very moving and absolutely magnificent

then the scene changes again and the it's after 
the play and we're walking home with a number of

other people whom I don't remember I look across 
to my wife who's standing walking on my left

hand side and she has fair short cropped hair 
and a slim boyish figure despite the pregnancy

and she reminded me I thought afterwards very much 
of the actress jean seberg in the film of geneva

as I look at her I'm filled 
with pride and love for her but

none of this I say to her I keep it all to myself 
and then the dream ends that's quite a dream

before we go into the dream 
we have to look at the fact

that the main figure of the dream is the wife of 
the dreamer but it's not his actual wife it is a

another figure which he literally associates with 
joan of arc and who is pregnant so if somebody

dreams of his husband or wife and they look quite 
differently they are they are different figure

it means the inner wife or the inner husband in 
other words the main animus are anima figure the

to whom they are so to speak always married 
inwardly it's the inner marriage and the inner

wife and here the dream runs that first there is a 
kind of mystery play which enacts the crucifixion

of christ and though but it's only acting it 
is a bit dangerous because the cross is high

but actually it's only acting this illustrates 
exactly the situation of our the religious

situation of our time christianity has become on 
one way a historical reminiscence for most people

a mystery player reenacts medieval 
plays plays in a medieval form so as if

we would rehearse some of our historical 
past and also it is a outer imitation

there has always been the problem that

the churches have taught us to imitate christ 
in the wrong way namely to imitate his outer

actions I would rather call that to ape 
christ and this aping of christ has not gone

under our skin we have not become christianized 
if you look at the history of the western world

and its wars and bloody fights you see that the 
christianization has not reached us at all we are

christians with our lips and outwardly but 
when it comes to psychological facts we are

complete pagan barbarians and that is 
because we only ape christ outwardly

we make pious historical remains we read the 
gospels we have the gospels repeated in church

and nobody is reached by or many people are 
not reached by it are not touched it doesn't

go under their skin at all peter how do you 
approach your own dreams to give them meaning

well I approach my own dreams by 
trying to learn as much about them

and their setting as I can to begin with that's 
to say for instance with regard to this dream

I had in fact been to a performance of a passion 
play in a church earlier in the year and so some

of the such that situation will come into what 
I feel about the dream and so forth for another

example I must work out what I feel about this 
jean seberg kind of boyish womanish figure

that seems to be important for me not only 
in this dream but in others that I've had

and so forth I try and work around what 
I know about the motifs in the dream

then I try and get to it's important for me to try 
and move the dream around to try and get bits that

I don't know because the dream is certainly 
trying to tell me something that I don't know

and so one way of doing this is to paint pictures 
of it I in fact painted a picture of this stream

but for me the most important way that I've always 
used is to write songs about my dreams to take

perhaps not the whole dream but to take a piece 
of the dream as the beginnings the origins of the

song which I write with just using the guitar and 
strum to myself and then once I've got the song

then I look at the song and 
see in what way has the song

expanded the dream and what way has it moved me on 
in what way has it got me deeper into that actual

image of the woman on the cross the pregnant 
lady on the cross was it I that crucified you

and am I too up there beside you like a 
robber to deride you luster mixed with draws

when I'm down at a loss that's 
a time that I seek to free you

but give me the strength to nail and 
be you splayed upon that suffering tree

you pregnant lady of the cross 
pregnant lady of the cross

pregnant lady of the cross

you always talk about the essence of a dream 
message right the dream's got an essence

what's the essence of the dream message for 
him this dream tells the dreamer that now

something unusual is going to happen namely 
his this mysterious wife pregnant wife of his

is going to be crucified in the 
place of christ and he trembles

in realizing the solemn performance that is 
the solemn and crucial moment where we can see

that the christian teaching or the mystery of what 
christ represents reaches his own soul this dream

told me a number of things the initial thing it 
said to me was that the feeling of being crucified

of part of me being crucified was not just a 
negative one but that it was creative there was

a pregnancy in it there was a pregnancy involved 
of which I the dreamer was proud as it says at

the end of the dream I was very proud of this 
performance that had been put on so it told me

that no matter how I felt in real life there was 
something of value in that feeling and that i

should try and look for it and search for it and 
that was at the time as you remember tremendously

important for me it was it actually made me feel 
better about my songs it made me feel able to play

my songs to other people because I felt there 
was something in value that I could create

at a later time something else came to me which 
was that one could also say she didn't belong up

there that's a dangerous place to be and she's 
gonna have a baby and if she had a baby when

she was on the cross that wouldn't be very 
nice so the dream is also saying she's got

to come off the cross she's got to be taken 
down and taken care of and looked after and

in order that the baby can be born so that 
was the second thing that came to me that i

had to give much more pay much more attention and 
value to these sides of my personality in jungian

psychology we use the word soul and usually that 
words thought about within a theological context

could you interpret this stream in such a way that 
the psychological meaning of the word soul will be

clear this inner wife of his who is crucified is 
the dreamer's soul it is his anima and the anima

in a man means also his feeling personality 
his sensitivity his awareness of inner things

if a man has a positive relationship to his 
anima he is sensitive he is aware of inner things

he is receptive to the spiritual processes in the 
depths of the psyche that is his anima and the

crucifixion which is the being extended between 
the opposites to suffer the utmost clash of

opposites the cross is this the two opposites 
clashing together that's why when christ was on

the cross he said my god my god why hast 
thou forsaken me he was absolutely torn

between the opposites he blotted out between the 
opposites this central teaching of the christian

mystery is now going to be realized by his soul it 
will happen in him and that means he will suffer

it he will go through it and he will begin 
to then feel that the christian teaching is a

psychological reality it's not some some 
gesture out there which we have to weep

or some kind of conventional behavior which 
is been taught to us by persons and priests

it is something which touches our and concerns 
our innermost psychic being the important thing

is that it's not easy because you can't just say 
ah this is my inner femininity I've found it I've

got it good it's in my pocket now I don't have 
to bother anymore you have to that's only the

beginning because if you're gonna take that you 
have to give up some of your achievement and then

you're going to feel bad about that and so all the 
time it's a it's a conscious difficult struggle

it's a pendulum that swings to and fro from one 
side to another and each time it hurts because

each time it means giving up something that is you 
christ has always been thought of as a masculine

symbol yet the dream uses christ to represent the 
dreamer's femininity it has always been taught

by certain christian mystics that we should be 
christified that the true imitation of christ is

to become christ ourselves to be transformed into 
christ ourselves inwardly or psychologically and

that is now what the dream predicts is happening 
to the dreamer now he will be a christian

after that experience he will know what it means 
to be crucified between the opposite and he will

know what it means to carry his own cross and to 
carry his own destiny to it to the ultimate christ

in a way is the model of a man who went alone 
along with his own fate and carried his own cross

and fulfilled his own task without wavering 
or giving in to any collective pressure

that's why we worship him as a man who has 
become a god as god having become man in him

he carries out that and the dreamer is now reached 
by the same the christian teaching is so to speak

reaching his soul now he associates this crucified 
woman with joan of arc which is an appropriate

association because joan of arc herself 
was such a crucified figure joan of arc

she didn't ape christ she imitated 
christ in the right way in living her

own destiny individual destiny right through the 
cross and right through in our even outer death

I'm curious to know what you'll 
have to say about this dream it's

I think the most beautiful dream I ever had

I dreamt that I was walking 
along beside this enormous river

swept current and the light was flashing back 
off the water and I looked up a hill and on top

of the hill was a castle it was surrounded by a 
moat I went across the drawbridge into the castle

and into a central courtyard in the center of 
which was a well and a woman was sitting on the

wall of this wall and she had a ladle and 
she lowered the ladle down into the well

and held it out to me I took it and drank the 
water and then she dipped again and gave it to me

a second time and the third time she repeated the 
same procedure and then I sat down on the edge of

the wall facing her chat on this gorgeous blue 
dress very very beautiful woman and I just had

this feeling of peace and I woke up we have seen 
before that the dream world and the unconscious

psyche shows its positive face only to us if we 
go with life if we don't refuse to live we go

we speak of the river often as the flow of 
life the flow of time time is a river which

ends in the ocean of eternity life is a river it 
begins with a youthful spring and finally ends

in the sea of the godhead and so on there it's a 
famous simile for the ever-moving ever-changing

facts of life which are really the 
ever-moving changing of our psychic element

substance which carries us we think a 
minute of the strange thing that our ego

consciousness is every night blotted out for 
hours and returns identical the next morning

why should you not wake up and be somebody else 
you are completely continuous yourself so there's

something which carries us through apparently 
which carries our identity through all life

our body changes its cells we have practically 
no old cells in our body left after seven years

and still we are remain ourselves there's 
something like essential psychic substance in

us which carries us through in our identity 
and that is this mysterious flow of life

that's the river and there he meets the woman 
at the well and one naturally thinks of christ's

conversation with the samaritan woman that is also 
the beautiful historical example of the meeting of

the feminine christ one of the few meetings where 
christ in a meaningful way encounters the feminine

and takes up contact with it what's the meaning 
of the dream being set in the medieval castle

the anima in her developed form is in man the 
capacity for love in contrast to the power drive

it is loving for love's sake in the highest form 
that's why this woman appears in a medieval castle

surrounded by a moat because that in medieval 
time in the so-called french cours d’amour courts

of love there was the first time in the western 
christian civilization a realization of the anima

there each night elected a woman of his choice 
which was not his wife and who represented his

beloved anima figure and he made poems for 
her and he did his heroic deeds for her and

he worshipped her like a goddess those men 
grew out of their barbarian warriors behavior

and became cultivated people men who could really 
relate to women men who cultivated their capacity

of love their sensitivity and that's why this is 
the time of the grail legends of the troubadours

of the story of tristan and isolde and 
these love traditions the church didn't like

this development because it led to all sorts 
of complications and it made people a bit too

independent from her and so it was suppressed and 
interestingly enough when those cours d’amour were

suppressed the witch hunting began the 
feminine became negative and one began

to pursue alluring interesting women as witches 
because one had suppressed a beginning development

of love life that is why when we now are 
confronted with the problem of renewing

the relationship between the sexes and finding 
new forms of relating between men and women

we have to in historically go back to the middle 
ages to that where the problem has been left over

in this castle in the moat they're there the 
problem has been deserted and left to for a

one-sided masculine rational development of the 
west and therefore we have to return to that and

for instance the whole romanticism of the hippie 
movement was such a first attempt that's why they

were imitated troubadours with music instruments 
and even revived troubadour music that was all

going back that now the anima development 
is most important for men and the animus

development from women and what about the 
ladles of water that the beautiful lady offers

the only action of the dream because that 
dream in first line speaks through its

beauty and its feeling value and not need not 
much rational explanation the only action is

that the anima figure three times give the dreamer 
some of the water of life to drink the anima has

the water of life and the water of life is well 
that is difficult to define but you can say we

most people experience sometimes they feel they 
are when they feel well they say they feel alive

even if they are they might have sufferings and 
difficulties in their life there are times where

people feel alive and then when people 
are in a neurotic fix or in some trouble

they say I'm dead I'm inwardly dead I don't 
live this shows that being alive is not a

only a physical fact it is a psychic fact being 
alive is we are alive when we feel alive and what

makes us feel alive is the contact with that flow 
of the unconscious psyche that's why dreams are so

important you can say you could even refer that 
deeper with a bit of water of life to say each

ladle full of water of life is a dream that's 
what the dream is we get every night so to speak

a bit a sip of the water of life and if we 
understand the dream then we are vivified

and then we feel alive we feel in contact with our 
psychic depth and with our own living substance

and then we subjectively feel that life is flowing 
that we are alive when I'm down and at a loss

that's a time that I seek to free you but 
give me the strength to nail and be used

upon that suffering tree you pregnant lady 
of the cross pregnant lady of the cross

pregnant lady of the cross

I think it is important to note in our 
culture when the word feminine is used

people automatically think 
we're talking about women

this was not so in ancient cultures

the indian hindus knew that they were working 
towards a balance between shiva and shakti

in divine embrace

in china the yin and the yang

were always the attempt was made to bring them 
into balance those of you who do the I chain

that is the whole understanding behind balancing 
the yin with some yang the yang with some yin

in the christian world we go to the abstract 
to balance the transcendent and the imminent

yes we do need a new vocabulary these 
two words are too tied to sexuality

masculine and feminine have become sexual 
words but the fact remains that in our dreams

masculinity is imaged in the male the 
femininity is imaged in the female

instead of putting all our energy 
into worrying about new language

we need also to look at the dreams where the 
macho man is raping the feminine in himself

in other people in the earth or 
where the woman the phallic woman

is doing the same thing raping the feminine 
in herself in her man and in mother earth

what does it look like in a man when his 
femininity begins to develop when his growing

anima begins to separate out from mother when that 
cold cat begins to develop a sweet and loving face

when he is no longer interested 
in his don juan escapades

how does his outer attitude change

when the little boy has outgrown the phallic which

and the deadening laws of patriarchy what 
happens when he begins to experience his own

values in his own being being is the feminine 
principle doing is the masculine principle

for me patriarchy has become a parody 
of masculinity it is focused on power

power over even power over one's own body

masculinity is a focused discriminating 
fiery creative energy that loves the feminine

cherishes the feminine if the 
feminine principle were present

at the board table how would 
it change our ecological laws

what would happen to modern pig 
farms chicken farms stockyards

what would happen on our whole planet 
if we could believe that god has a wife

while you are looking at our shadow 
nose it is important to remember

that the shadow is not always dark mean 
dangerous evil shadow for jung means those

parts of the same gender self that are still 
in the unconscious unknown to our conscious ego

these have can be these can be parts of ourselves 
that have been put down since we were tiny

children parts of ourselves that we were made 
fun of bewildered by kept out of a peer group

we buried these parts and hoped we would 
never see them again forgotten them

often the sad part is that 
they are in our unconscious

and like ugly little toads they come splatting out

we don't even know we've said them

but we suddenly realize that everyone 
around us is angry we don't understand why

it's very important sometimes to talk 
to each other about our little toads

now the shadow is the same gender as the ego 
we're going to move now to the contrasexual

in the man what jung calls the anima the 
latin word for soul this is the part of

him that will become the divine inner 
energy it can move in several directions

as we look at the at this anima she can move she 
well let me see here let me use this as we look at

this anima and you see how this pendulum swings 
you can see that there is a ratio on both sides

that they it does move the same on the one side 
as on the other think of a complex that way

think of a person who is projecting a 
goddess a divine goddess onto someone

and the energy becomes shifting because she is 
not a divine goddess she is human but that is a

terrible disappointment to the person

so the other side comes up and she may appear as 
an enchantress someone who will not let him go

or even an anima often a sick anima who will not 
let him go or something that will keep him asleep

the relationship to the mother will determine 
the relationship to this contrasexual and one has

to always be aware that the more intense on the 
positive side the equally intense negative energy

you'll realized that the young feminine would be 
as it were a shadow side of that mother energy

when she begins to appear in dreams often it's a 
little girl or a young girl or a little dark girl

and she comes out and of course the energy may 
be projected that's the tendency what's coming

out of the unconscious is projected onto someone 
but that's fine because then we begin to see who

that is in us what we are projecting she may say 
to you if you're a man that's not who I am at all

but from your point of view yes indeed that 
is who she is because that is your projection

we don't project intentionally it's like 
an arrow that just comes out flies directly

to the bull's eye and then two people 
involved have to deal with that

when the energy becomes that one can really see 
what's going on and you begin to pull it back

it becomes an inner muse for example a woman 
may dream that her husband is going off every

night and she's afraid he's having an affair 
she can even maybe see the woman in her dreams

very often he is going to his music studio 
or someplace where he can write where he can

actually work with his own inner bride this is 
very confusing in a relationship in fact some

of you may say well what's the point of all of 
this why bother making a relationship with this

inner feminine if it's going to upset the outer 
marriage it won't upset it if you stay with it

if you are projecting goddess onto someone 
that divinity is your hope and your goal

but it's totally an illusion no human being 
is a goddess and the dark side will come out

of that projection and turn against the person 
who is projecting so to bring that energy in

recognize it as internal is to bring out your 
own creativity you write with that energy you

go into life with that energy you create music 
art whatever the whatever it is that brings you

into your full maturity more than that in 
the marriage the expectation is taken off

you no longer expect her to be who you want 
her to be the goddess that you think she is

you begin to see her as she in fact is 
and there's great beauty in human love

the anima really is the archetype of 
life she is the principle of feeling and

love in the relationship by which I 
mean a presence that can look at the man

and love him for who he is for what he values 
it's not what she is projecting onto him

but she loves what is coming forth in him 
and can put a love around that relationship

that brings out the very strength 
of all his creative masculinity

and now we come to the shadow 
in women the same sex as the ego

we are all all all of us men and women but women 
in particular have to look at it if we're going

to look at shadow that we are the children 
grandchildren great grandchildren of women

raised in patriarchy so we are carrying 
the shadow of patriarchy in our dreams

the terror of displeasing daddy or daddy's 
surrogate undermines the ego standpoint

as dr vaughn franz says we cannot see our own 
shadow she actually calls it our own backside

and if the ego could see those unconscious 
signals that we are putting out

it would find them contemptible

this film is about the anguish of 
coming to grips with that shadow

many women today are fighting to escape the 
bondage of the patriarchy under which their

identity and feelings of self-esteem rest mainly 
on their capacity to make themselves desirable

they're realizing that the greater 
potential of life within them

is being smothered by this shadow of desire these 
dreams show that there is an on the side of the

personality which can be integrated a creative 
resource which can give a life a new meaning

well I dreamt that there a woman was 
trying to see herself in a mirror

and she said my husband has taken it 
away so he doesn't have to look at me

and her friend who was a woman said my husband's 
done the same thing and I could kill him

and the next thing was the sea and the figure 
of a woman floundering in it and a voice said

a male voice said she always used 
to like to swim naked like this

early in her career and it was marilyn monroe 
luminous and white with a yellow hair all spread

out on the waves very much like the calendar shot 
where her red yellow hair is out on the red velvet

the only problem was she didn't have any legs or 
any arms it was just this trunk luminous and white

and sad looking floundering in 
the water and as I watched her

she became aware and turned twisting her whole 
body or her old torso what there was of it towards

me and I caught the expression on her mouth which 
was all painted in red but so sad and I said

she always turns when she 
knows she's being watched

hoping to catch desire in the eyes of sailors 
first there's this strange disappearance of

the mirror twice and one would think if the 
mirror is taken away the woman cannot look

at herself again but the dream says the husband 
takes the mirror away so that he needs not to

look at her which is a complete dream absurdity so 
we have to first ask ourselves what is the mirror

in the mirror we reflect the mirror reflects our 
image and if you think of the double meaning of

the word reflection it also means to reflect 
upon oneself to think to reflect means to bend

back upon oneself to find one's own identity 
and the mirror shows one one's objective true

face therefore it's very often a 
shock to look at oneself in the mirror

and if you think of the mirror in the fairy tale 
snow white the mirror tells the truth to the old

witch and says that snow white is more beautiful 
than she is and which becomes gets furious at that

so the mirror is also what shows the truth the 
reflection which show shows the true identity now

both these women at the beginning of the dream 
accuse the their husband to have taken away

their possibility of seeing their own identity 
we you can say that is what the women's lib

people all say it's always the husbands they have 
not their own identity they are feel raped or

they feel that their own feminine 
identity has been stolen to them

and the cheapest way is to accuse the husband now 
the husband might have contributed to that because

men naturally carrying themselves all sorts 
of aesthetical and romantic ideas of how a

ideal woman should be generally this energy 
they carry within themselves is influenced

by their mother they expect their wife to be if 
they love their mother their wife should be as

similar to their mother as possible if they 
hated their mother their wife should be

as different from their mother as possible 
and that women having a natural tendency to

comply to the wishes of their surrounding 
to relate personally women very often feel

forced to play a role towards their husband 
to fulfill his expectations instead of being

themselves and then they naturally feel bitter 
as if the husband had stolen their possibility

of being themselves but in general it is 
a projection it is really that their own

ambition or their own animals that means their 
masculine drive their wish for career and ambition

has estranged them from their feminine identity 
social life in general and not the husband

and but the plain result in the dream 
is a feeling of despair of having

lost the mirror the possibility of seeing 
oneself how one really is my my association with

that immediately well there were two plays one 
speak our name desire in which blanche seeks her

identity in the kindness of strangers and I saw 
the eye of the sailor as being that kind of mirror

the same kind of mirror that the kind that the 
kindness of strangers was and the other was jean

paul sartre no exit in which three people in 
hell one woman the nymphomaniac does not exist

because there are no mirrors in hell unless one 
of the other two characters looks at her because

she's so little self-identity and it seemed that 
when I had this dream it seemed to me that it

mirrored a collective it was a collective dream 
that mirrored something very wrong with women

in our time some terrible problem of women 
who whose self lack of self-identity makes

them look for mirrors in the eyes of strangers or 
lovers instead of thinking of loving themselves

and the fact that she had no arms she was 
incapable of love and I thought of marilyn

she has been able to play to millions of 
men the ideal feminine figure and playing

that and she has trained or was trained by her 
own mother to play that role from very young on

and so she had the whole tragic fate of an 
actress who is disidentified from herself

and plays a star role and loses the feeling of who 
she is as in her private life she had an obsessive

fantasy in her youth that she was entering a 
cathedral and the whole congregation was there

looking towards the altar and when she came in the 
whole congregation turned around and stared at her

that means nothing less that now she is the 
goddess nobody looks at the altar the place of

where god appears or becomes real or incarnates 
in the human world she is the goddess and this

being identified with the goddesses is 
naturally extremely dangerous that is

what we talked about inflation before and so 
marilyn monroe in reality lost her identity

and that woman in her has died and the only good 
thing to do would to give her a decent funeral

but we can also see it from another aspect because 
marilyn monroe represented for most of the public

as her own fantasy shows a feminine goddess 
and it is because in the christian churches

the feminine goddess is lacking that certain 
women or film stars are elevated to divine rank

and admired so much greta garbo had the same 
tragic difficulties that she was too much deified

and she got frightened by it and ran 
away from it finally she had enough

so it is also a problem of our civilization 
because we have no official goddess to worship

certain actresses or beautiful 
women are worshiped like a goddess

instead and they can't carry that projection 
they don't know how to carry that projection

and so you can also say this drowned marilyn 
monroe figure in the dream is the divine woman

within the dreamer which should have developed as 
a kind of inner divine nucleus of the personality

her star so to speak her inner star which she 
has lost by making an ordinary worldly career

in that case marilyn monroe should not be buried 
but rescued and brought back to life again

both interpretations seem to contradict each other 
but they don't there are two halves of the same

coin one can see it in both ways the dream is just 
ambiguous he shows that's how it is look at it

and what she does with it and how she reacts 
toward it towards it is still open and the fact

that marylin monroe has no arms or legs the arms 
are generally the organs of actions and the legs

are the organs with which we stand in reality 
so that divine feminine image cannot act and

cannot be anchored in reality it is completely 
mutilated of course although I've realized that

I might participate in this also I didn't see it 
as specifically personal dream until a year later

I suddenly realized that for 50 years I hadn't 
used my hands therefore I cut off my arms that's

pretty much what I saw in the dream and 
I set up my studio and started to work

well that's pygmalion and that's a 
pygmalion daddy who has a very clear

idea of what he wants his little girl to 
be and he's making her in his own image

she's a little clay pot that's turning into 
a little clay cat who looks just like daddy

but she doesn't really if you look at her face she 
doesn't really want to be what he wants it to be

and he's saying be what I want you to be damn 
it so that's the she probably will grow up to be

to be thinking all the time what daddy is thinking 
about what I'm doing and be dissatisfied with

herself if she doesn't live up to his standard 
and I think that's women's great problem

this dream occurred almost three years after the 
marylin monroe dream it's a long dream in two

parts well I dreamt I came home to my dark living 
room and in the middle of the room was a strange

dark-haired foreign young woman who I'd never seen 
before in my life I said what are you doing here

and she said in broken english that 
she had come to look after my things while I

was away to see nothing was stolen and 
I said I don't believe you how dare you

intrude into my private place and I struck 
her first on one cheek and on the other

and after that I was surprised at my violence 
and she went away in tears when we look at this

dream we have to first look at the geography 
of the place there is a living room sunk

in the floor low down and then the bedrooms above 
the bedrooms have all the quality of private life

private territory where she doesn't want to have 
any intruders downstairs on the level floor or

even a bit on a lower level the brim puts it on 
a low level there is her social life now this

woman has made a great career a professional 
career and has living a lively social life and

the dream puts that down that is so to speak the 
ground floor but the important thing is higher up

there is a problem higher up so to speak which 
would have more priority the problem is the bed

in the bedroom when she comes up to the 
bedroom first she finds this dark-haired

unknown intruder who at the end of the dream is 
the mother of the violated child and she is just

furious for having somebody unknown intruding 
into her private life and slaps the intruder

we don't know who that dark-haired woman is we 
must we can therefore only conclude it is a part

of her personality whom she has no idea of another 
part of herself whom she doesn't know and whom

she feels strange and whom she wants to reject 
within herself because she's unaccustomed to it

very often during life we are suddenly assaulted 
by a new part of our personality so to speak we

have new kind of feelings or reactions which we 
never had before and very often out of sheer habit

we hate that we don't like to change what's 
that why am I suddenly feeling so differently

and then we feel it's uncanny and anything 
uncanny we try to slap down within us instead

of being open and saying what new feelings 
or reactions do I have let's look at them

but she has this rejection and then she in the 
next part discovers that this unknown woman she

has slapped is a waitress in the downstair room 
so that gives us a little clue who that woman is

that is a part of her femininity who has 
up till now only concentrated and serving

other people instead of looking after herself and 
it seemed changed to a kind of basement cafeteria

under apparently the apartment building I lived in 
and there was a lot of confusion and the manager

was instructing the waitresses how to run 
things and I noticed that the dark young

woman was one of the waitresses and I looked 
at the manager and he had on beige clothes

but I couldn't make out his face it was all out 
of focus like a test site I'd had that morning

I couldn't see the card and everything 
was blurred and it reminded me of that

even in the dream and then I overheard a 
conversation in which it became quite clear

that the manager had sent this 
young woman to my apartment

and I began to feel rather 
badly that I had dismissed her

so summarily right then I go to sleep I'm 
in my narrow bed in a room of my own very

narrow very like the room of someone who's left 
a marriage that kind of room and suddenly I wake

and sitting beside the bed in a little tiny 
chair is a little tiny boy of about two years old

with pink and white skin he looks like a little 
rose petal he soaks with it I lean down to look

at him he's got a little bag of pink and 
white candies just the same color he is

and I think he's a sweet baby he's not disturbing 
me he can stay there so I go on with whatever it

was I was doing and then I turned to look at 
him again and he's turned into an older child

a girl dark instead of blonde naked 
who's eating something with bloody hands

and I notice that her vagina seems to be split 
open and filled with blood and I think oh how

horrible she's mutilated herself or has she been 
violated and I feel just overwhelming sorrow

and then I realize that she is the child of the 
dark woman intruder then she comes again back to

the upstair bedroom and the bedroom is very bare 
and is a cramped hotel room quite in contrast to

her actual bedroom which is comfortable 
and wide with armchairs and bookshelves

so it represents her private life her intimate 
life and the dream tells her look here

there is not enough space and we know now that 
space and time are the same thing therefore I

would say there is not enough space time for 
your private life this is a woman who probably

lives much too extrovertedly her professional life 
and her social life and she doesn't take enough

room and space and time to be with herself and so 
that her psychological bedroom is a cramped hotel

room and the hotel room is also something where 
strangers live and where strangers can walk in

and out she has no real privacy she has not a 
realm of introversion where she can be herself

where she can have her personal secrets 
it's all spent away to other people be

and part of her femininity which 
should look after an inner child is

acting as a waitress to other people that is like 
marilyn monroe in the other dream being an actress

acting for other people and here this one is 
waiting for other people serving other people

instead of looking after one's own business 
this dark-haired woman should have looked after

her little daughter so that she shouldn't 
be raped instead of waiting on downstairs

and so she the woman discovers with her who 
she's and then she finds in this cramped bedroom

a beautiful little boy who 
is delicate and smiling and

absolutely charming divine little figure now 
a boy in a woman's dream generally means a new

enterprise and therefore and because boys if you 
look at them boy young boys are the epitome of

doing something all the time in an honest jung 
always said a boy that is the honest enterprise

and that honest enterprise we must therefore 
probably put together with the fact that she

has begun painting that was her first undertaking 
where she did something for her own psyche for her

own self and where there was an honest enterprise 
which was not looking for success or anything but

doing a thing for her its own sake and that's 
the little boy and there something comes into

being a new aspect of her personality comes into 
being but that painting is only instrumental

because the little boy then changes into a little 
girl and that means this painting she is now doing

is not a purpose in it has no purpose in 
its own it is instrumental to bring forth

a new part of her feminine personality of 
bringing out her femininity and that is the

little girl her true femininity that little 
daughter of the dark-haired woman would be

her true feminine identity which is still very 
young and growing is not she has a she begins

only to have a hunch of that true new identity and 
that's why it's still a little girl and there she

discovers with horror that that little girl is 
bleeding in the vagina and is probably having

been raped and violated and ill-treated who raped 
the little girl we must probably say she herself

or her animus her masculine inside her career 
mindedness by her career-mindedness behind her

own back she raped her true femininity which 
wanted to grow within her but the girl is not dead

the problem can be mended in the dream only 
in a very dramatic form wants to show her

if you go on with your social life and your 
career-mindedness you reap something within

yourself which is just born and wants 
to grow within you a new kind of woman

well obviously there is some tie-in with 
my marilyn monroe dream and the mutilation

and that morning I had had a test and was feeling 
very sorry for myself because I'd had a second

operation for detaching retinas 
and I hadn't been able to focus

and I'd given up working in the studio 
and been very morose and six days after

this dream I went in and set up my sculpture 
studio so I think that the dream was telling me

that I've been mutilating myself in my self-pity 
dr von franz is there a relationship between this

dream and her marilyn monroe dream we see in the 
first dream of marilyn monroe that something is

dying or has died within this woman and in 
the second dream something has been born

we could even make the assumption that the lit 
raped little girl is the reborn marilyn monroe in

that wrong form of acting and hunting success 
this figure has to die and in this new form

of new life of a new going personality it comes 
back again there is constantly in dreams we have

deaths and births of parts of our personality 
we die during life parts of our personality die

rightly or sometimes wrongly 
within us and others are born

this is the monster baby the little girl that 
never grew up in fact it's probably the little

pussycat she's smoking pop's pride she's a 
ventriloquist dummy the ventriloquist is daddy

and her jaw is chained to his with a little golden 
chain which is the death rattle in her hand she's

in a cage she's in her own little theater she's 
a little star she can't get out of the limelight

she stars on her shoes and stars on her hat 
which is daddy's hat of course the fedora

she wants to shine for daddy and her whole life 
is committed to it and simply spouts daddy's

opinions and lives by his rules and thinks she's 
happy she's in a prison she's a prisoner of it

she's what happens when a 
woman has no inner identity

the development of masculinity can 
be very important in a woman's life

it's her capacity to act on her own behalf and 
without it she can feel trapped and paralyzed

in these three dreams which occurred over a period 
of four years we see the struggle involved in the

development of creative masculinity this woman 
left her marriage and established herself in

a new lifestyle in the first dream there's 
no masculine figure just a mother's shadow

in this dream there's an enormous 
king-sized mattress I mean huge it

seems to be suspended there's nothing else around 
it no sheets nothing I'm on it laying this way

over to my right I feel that there's 
something there I look over it's a woman

walking along at a distance with two dobermans on 
leashes black dobermans as she comes towards me

I keep watching her she comes closer and closer

when she gets to about three feet beside me 
she looks down at me I have this feeling of

really being aware of her looking down at me with 
disgust she has a babushka around her head tied

she looks at me lets go of the leashes and 
the two black dogs just zap right at my throat

the whole problem is already told in the first 
sentence of the dream where she the dreamer says

I was lying on a mattress floating in the 
air she the dreamer is shown that she has

no relationship to the earth she has not her feet 
on the earth she has no contact with reality and

that means she has also no real contact with her 
own body and she's living in ideas in theoretical

conceptions of life in illusions and then a woman 
comes towards her with those doberman pinchers and

those would be the earthly forces the instinctual 
force the dog represents our domesticated instinct

but they are hostile they are 
associated to the nazis using them

so because she is floating in the air the instinct 
turns against her is resentful against her because

she doesn't attend her own animal instinct the 
woman has a babushka on her head which reminds her

of her mother well I'm polish and that's a very 
common polish sort of tradition babushkas are very

in it it's everybody wears a babushka 
either on the head or around the shoulders

my mother wore one now the [ __ ] woman 
represents the instinctual basis the matrix

also the whole area of the uterus if a 
woman has trouble with her mother she

has very often trouble with menstruation and 
with her own sexual functions and her maternal

feelings the mother is so to speak the earth 
from which she lives and that mother figure

lets the dobermans loose on her 
a fierce hostile negative aspect

attack of the instincts so the dream says because 
you are floating in mid-air because you have lost

touch with reality the instinctual basis of 
your femininity has become hostile to you

and is threatening you which goes very well 
with the fact that she became after a deal

because if one lives against one's own animal 
instincts then illness is in the offing

after the two dreams shortly after the two dreams 
as a matter of fact within six weeks of the second

time I had the dream I ended up in the hospital 
with a very serious infection pelvic infection the

dogs attacked the throat is there significance 
to that well I think first of all when a dog

wants to really kill he attacks the throat 
he bites the artery on the throat that is the

killing movement so it shows that the dogs are 
mean real business that they are really not

only playfully attacking but you know it makes 
the attack really dangerous we can also look at

the symbolism of the throat and the throat is for 
instance in the hinduistic teaching of the chakra

syndrome is the center of the word of the logos of 
the spoken word she believes in the world of words

she doesn't believe she doesn't listen to what 
her the instinct speaks out of one's stomach

from deeper centers but she that goes 
together with her floating in the air

she probably mirrors herself in her 
own reflections as a successful woman

and that is living in the world of ideas and 
words and that is the so-called bishouta center

in the hinduistic chakra teaching 
and that's what is attacked

is it possible to actually 
diagnose a disease from a dream

after the event one can say so but I 
wouldn't have dared to say so ahead of time

I could I would have only said you are living 
against your own instincts and that will very

likely end up in some kind of disease because it's 
obvious if you eat too much or too little or if

you sleep too much or too little if you do 
anything against your instinct you are likely to

catch a disease the next dream she dreamt 
three years later after she left her marriage

it's interesting that the shadow 
figure of the mother changes

from the extremely negative figure to a positive 
figure that brings her down to the ground

in this dream I'm in a room there's my mother 
and a male with me okay it's a very tiny room

there's hardly any furniture in it except one 
bed on one side there's not too much going on

and we're just kind of standing there then I 
get this feeling that there's a body outside

the door I walk over to it open the door and sure 
enough there's a body it's like a central hallway

with doors going in I look down on the ground 
there is a body there you can't see the body

it's wrapped in a sheet but I know that it's a 
male I shut the door and now we have to leave the

three of us have to go so we go to the back door 
open it and to get down it's an incredibly steep

staircase wooden and just an unbelievable sort 
of drop the stairs are open they're not closing

it's really dangerous my mother goes first me and 
the male go behind her she starts walking down she

takes a couple of steps and I'm being very very 
cautious and then all of a sudden she does this

beautiful leap from way up high lands flat 
on the ground both feet excellent jump I'm

just in awe it's just wow then everything 
changes I'm by myself I'm walking through a

like a village a small town it's quite barren 
there's a lot of sand as I approach the center of

the square there's a platform which is about three 
or four steps up there are stairs leading to it

it's a hanging man's platform an absolute square 
made out of wood an old weathered kind of wood

there's four pillars around the corners and then 
in the center there's the hanging man's pole

I approach it look at it and 
there's a man hanging there

I look again he's hanging but by his feet I'm 
not alarmed at it or anything I look at it

and then I walk by the animus is often spoken 
of as a nuisance in the woman he has also very

positive and important functions because 
a woman who whose animus is lamed or

is not functioning is too passive and therefore 
too exposed to the vicissitudes of life she cannot

take her own destiny into her own hands and 
therefore the animus really is a very positive

figure this dream here shows that the woman is 
with her mother and actually she was very much

wrapped up in her mother and therefore dominantly 
feminine and had not developed her own masculinity

and this own masculinity is shown in the dream 
as wrapped up in linen dead lying before the door

that is the part of her personality which has died 
and should be resuscitated she therefore has to

change leave the place where she 
is she has to change her life

situation and the path is leading downwards 
a rather dangerous step she has to come on

a deeper down level of reality become more 
realistic realizing her practical life situation

and she succeeds in doing so and then 
she comes to a village an old village

old-fashioned village which probably mirrors 
the old-fashioned way of life where women

were not allowed to have any initiative of their 
own where they had this kind of passive submissive

life of the past and there she finds that in the 
center square of the village a man is hung up

in that atmosphere of old-fashioned femininity 
all the positive masculine forces in women

are suspended literally suspended they are killed 
they they they cannot act and therefore the dream

shows what is wrong with her she probably 
being in a very difficult outer situation

would be inclined to think that all her bad 
luck lies in the outer situation and in her

negative marital situation and the dream 
shows her that the real trouble is that her

own masculinity is dead is not functioning and 
has to be rescued and revived again would you

amplify the image of the hanging man hanging 
is in general a kind of negative deification

after all the god of western civilization is a 
hangman and it means the moment of being elevated

into the spiritual realm and be recognized 
as a god but at the expense of human reality

one is so to speak hung up in the eternity 
and the human reality is dead and that's

why for instance the old germans hung up their 
prisoners in honor of bhutan and when the wind

was blowing them back and forth on the gallows or 
the trees where they hung them that was meant that

voter under god the spiritual god was taking them 
to them but it also means what the english word

says to be in a suspended state suspended means 
hanging so it means that all her masculine

intelligence and capacity of action and courage 
and all the masculine qualities are existing but

suspended in suspense and not touching the 
reality they are turned upside down where

the man should have his head up up which means 
she should have her head up herself and think her

situation over and take it in hand like a man and 
all that is suspended and condemned to inaction

through a old-fashioned attitude towards life on 
one side and through her too great identity with

her mother on the other side the next dream 
occurred after she was rejected by a lover

she had told him that she had strong feelings 
of love and affection toward him and he said

the feelings were not reciprocated that he saw 
her just as a sex object the dream begins she's

sitting in the balcony of a movie theater all of 
a sudden I have to go to the washroom I'm looking

for a washroom I get up I walk towards the back 
of the theater there's an usherette standing there

we go to the washroom together it's kind of a 
strange wooden door it's a storage area washroom

somehow we both sort of go in or she opens the 
door and kind of holds it for me and I enter it

now to go in there and pee I 
realize you can't shut the door

as I'm thinking that a man enters in a suit and 
I'm outraged because this is a ladies washroom

so I tell them to get out then I see another man 
coming towards me now this is quite short stockily

built okay he's coming towards me I'm outraged at 
the fact that these men are in the ladies washroom

he comes right towards me the 
stalky man comes right towards me

I look over at the other man and he says he's a

tae kwon do master and I look over at the stocky 
man and he has assumed the stance of you know the

martial arts sort of thing and then in a leap 
he's at my throat she has been terribly hit

before this dream by the negative answer of 
that partner now the dream changes that heat

represents that shocking heat but in a different 
form first he shows that it happened when she

wanted to take to pee in a toilet now to pee 
generally has a symbolism of expressing oneself

genuinely peeing is one of the few functions 
man cannot repress he cannot rep we can repress

sleep for a while we can repress eating for a 
while but peeing is just above us it rules us

and therefore it is an expression of here I am 
that's how I am it always means to be genuine

and the dream says look here for once you have 
tried to be genuine when you ask this man do

you love me and inferred at the same time that 
you love him that was your true feeling and you

got hit but you did not get hit really by him the 
partner who told you he is not interested in you

you got hit by somebody else you got hit by this 
karate hero by that horrible man who hits with

a karate gesture your throat now this karate man 
is within her as if the dream says you did not get

the shock from outside you got it from your own 
nature which reminds one of the fact that jung one

said there is no difficulty which we ultimately 
are not to ourselves we are our own difficulty

and her love difficulty is within herself she 
has such a karate fellow in her and she can only

therefore develop further or become herself if 
she realizes that the terrible shock she fetched

herself in the outer world is something a problem 
in her own nature and that she has to face up to

the fact that she has such a hard fighting 
man in herself who devaluates her as a woman

this figure this karate figure who attacks women 
when they become genuine with their feelings

will you talk about them in 
terms of society in general well

I would say it is the modern style in the 
western societies and beginning also now

in china and in the marxist societies is 
to organize the masses with computers and

to discourage every personal feeling in 
the west for instance it's a rule in big

business to rotate men around in different places 
just to prevent too much personal attachment

personal attachment is looked at to be forming 
a clique to a personal feeling is discouraged

you see it also in political debates nowadays 
one of the most negative things one can say

about the opponent is to say he uses only feeling 
arguments he's not logical as if logic were the

only way to argument one can also argument with 
the heart one can also protest with one's feelings

not only with economic logic but nowadays the 
fashion the absolute fashion is the to be rational

and many schools of modern psychology are also 
rational if something is wrong in the marriage

one has to rationally reorganize sex life 
have extramarital affairs or use practical

new positions kamasutra positions or fix up the 
thing rationally as if it were a broken down car

and treating men like a broken down car and 
that is this absolutely destructive to feeling

and it hits men and women equally but 
women even more because women in generally

put more emphasis on personal relationship and 
personal feelings and therefore they are hit first

and that's why women are nowadays so unhappy and 
in a general revolt against many things they feel

that they are thwarted of their life naturally 
teach men too because if women go crazy and become

disagreeable and cold it reverberates on the 
suns and on the partners and on the men as well

but a man can stand a rationally organized 
world rather a bit longer than a woman

he's not happy in it finally himself 
either but he can stand it longer

there are many movements today to get back 
into the body taI chI jogging fitness programs

this tremendous emphasis on the body nowadays 
in psychotherapy is a compensatory movement

my feeling is from my own experience that 
it is a bad that those exercises to get

back in the body taI chI and all sorts of group 
experience and so on is a bit too technical again

it's too intentional I think that going into 
nature and living with nature is a better way

of thinking back into the body a more natural way 
but not everybody can do that and those exercises

are certainly sometimes very helpful what happens 
when the individual connects the head in the body

well generally when people sink into their body 
first the bridge between the head and the body

are the emotion emotions probably connected in 
the spring with the limbic system the affects

and the emotions and generally when people try 
to through exercises get into their bodies they

first touch on certain emotions a wild resentment 
against father or mother or something like that

generally negative emotions which have been 
repressed and the first step is to let those

out to let those come up and not suppress them 
with the head and then generally there is an

outburst and tears and sweat and rare physical 
reaction and then a relaxation and then a better

connection with the body you've been describing a 
society where the head the thinking is over here

and the body instincts and the emotions are here 
the problem involved in putting the head on top

what's wrong with our society what is wrong is 
that the whole collective consciousness doesn't

valuate eros anymore and eros is personal it is 
from one being to another being in a unique and

personal way and that is not evaluated that is 
not that doesn't count for anything you cannot

say to I do that because I love zone so against I 
do that against the rules because I love so-and-so

the rules are the rules the computer has

spilled them out that way and that's the way 
it has to be the whole de-personalization and

the whole mass organization of modern society is 
destructive to feeling and that drives women mad

the father complex can raise hell 
on the unconscious of a woman

his authority is absolute and he blocks 
her from contacting her own creative spirit

here's a dream that shows the animus in a highly 
negative form chastising the dreamer and driving

her into a state of bitter isolation she tells 
the dream in two parts I'm sitting in a cabin

a remotely placed cabin and 
I'm sitting on the floor

I'm brushing the hair of a cat I can't see 
the cat but I know it's got orange fur because

I'm pulling the fur of the cat out of the 
brush a woman behind me is using the phone

and I'm sitting beside a man I don't 
recognize but I know in the dream is my father

he's very tall and strongly built with short hair

he is chief of police and we live in the 
police department of a remote settlement

the woman finishes using the phone and hangs it 
up and leaves and he walks over to where she has

been and tidies up something and turns and walks 
towards me and says they're crazy they're just

plain crazy she's been making incestuous overtures 
to whoever she's been talking to on the phone

in the beginning of the dream she's brushing 
an orange cat the cat stems in our countries

from originally from egypt and there it was a 
divine animal and there was a cat goddess basted

who was the goddess of music sexuality 
pleasure in life and all together fertility and

life embracing feminine fertility the cat 
also in contrast to dogs has never sold its

soul to man the cat has always a 
kind of egocentric reserve somewhere

the cat says to us you may stroke me and 
you may serve me but it never becomes your

slave and if you annoy it just walks out on 
you and therefore the cat stands very often

in women's dream as an image of something feminine 
being independent and sure of itself just what

modern women are so often lacking that's why 
the cat goddess comes very often up in them as

a positive model of feminine behavior 
because the cat is not brutal and

displays no masculine features it is very 
feminine and all the same it's very firm and very

identical with itself and very true to itself the 
cat is not very amiable but very true to itself

the beginning of the dream tells us that she's 
trying to approach and to look after her own

femininity and at that moment the father walks up 
and the it's not her real father but it is in the

dream called her father and it's a chief of police 
and that shows that the image of the real father

has become within her a chief of police this 
woman tyrannizes herself with rules of behavior

in actual life she has decided to become a good 
mother and she forces herself in a tyrannical

harsh authoritarian way to be a good mother her 
home her children and she and the family life

has to be the way she thinks is right but 
that's why the dream says it's the chief of

police the police is mainly engaged to look in a 
very collective undifferentiated way that things

go on orderly conventionally orderly and so the 
chief of police is that animus in woman who wants

authority order behaving like everybody else not 
doing anything shocking to everybody a bit the

opposite of the cat the chief of police and the 
cat never get on very well and that poor woman

has both in her at the same time and then the 
chief of police declares the woman to be crazy

so that would be a secret voice in her 
that whenever she follows her own feeling

something says no that's crazy don't 
do that you are crazy if you do that

many people repress things within 
themselves by calling them crazy

in the second part of the dream tremendous anger 
suddenly springs up I'm standing beside my father

he has found a note that I've written to 
a boyfriend and he is in a murderous rage

the kid is standing in front of him

I start to tremble violently and run from the 
room through a door that is usually locked by a

hook high up on the door I see that it isn't 
locked and I run through into the bathroom

there's a man sitting on the floor in 
there who doesn't pay any attention to me

I'm wearing a parka and a hat 
and I vomit into the toilet

as I'm doing this I can see that my father is 
going to tie my hands together and hang me from

the rafters in the cabin and beat me with a stick 
I wake up from the dream shouting harry harry

there again we have the image naturally 
there exist in reality fathers who

think they have to anxiously protect the 
integrity of their daughters and therefore

pursue them when they write notes to their first 
boyfriend and so on but here this is no longer the

case as this woman is married and away from home 
so she is doing that again to herself and that is

the greatest tragedy about the negative animus 
that it always flares up with its power where a

woman loves whenever a woman loves somebody a man 
or somebody the animus comes and wants to cut it

off the negative animus tries to cut off women 
from any kind of relationship by belittling the

relationship or calling it crazy or by some other 
means the negative animus mainly manifests as a

opinionated resistance against having feelings of 
love and that's why especially if a woman has a

tendency to fall in love to or to be even only 
interested in the man then her animus comes up

and makes her ruin the relationship how 
does a woman experience that inside herself

subjectively you don't know you think you are 
under a curse just when you want to meet the

man or talk to the man you love something 
makes you make him a scene a tearful scene

and then you go home and cry and you say I 
wanted to have a good relationship to him now

and then either you project and you say and he 
is so nasty to me or you are a bit more honest

and then you say and just because I want the 
relationship to him I have made him a scene

and you just don't know what 
devil's mechanism makes you do that

you if a woman hits you as a man you 
can be sure she's interested in you

and she would really want to love you but she 
doesn't know how to do it the negative animus

behaves here like a jealous lover he wants to 
keep the woman and cut her off from all men

that is the typical mechanism when she has some 
loving feelings towards any man then comes this

you should not do that animus or it's projected 
I know the classical case of a woman who once

attacked jung in the analytical hour worse 
than ever with the animus and they went into

what happened in the hour that happened before 
jung had told her whenever you have a feeling

that's when you attack she had on the way to you 
seen beautiful strawberries and her first impulse

was let's buy them and bring them to him and then 
the anima said oh he will say strawberries have

an erotic meaning and he'll mock at me so she 
didn't buy the strawberries and then she arrived

in a fierce mood and attacked jung all the hour 
just because she had suppressed the strawberries

just because if she had bought the 
strawberries everything would have

gone well but he had repressed her own feeling 
you say that the animus says this to a woman

subjectively what does she experience that 
a voice is actually talking inside her head

or what no [ __ ] the worst about it is she 
experiences is as if she thinks it herself

it thinks in her jung is going to laugh at the 
strawberries and she feels she thinks that and

therefore that is one of the long troubles of 
analytical work to make women distinguish between

what they really think themselves and what it 
thinks in them which they think is their own

thought and even when you have worked for years 
on that I have sometimes negative thoughts against

myself which I would if you ask me at the moment 
say yes that's what I think about myself and then

I have a dream of a man raping me and then I know 
no that was an evil animus in me who thought that

what's the origin of that voice does it have 
its roots in the relationship with the father

the first man a woman meets is the father 
and the father has therefore a very decisive

influence on a young girl if the relationship 
to the father constellates itself negatively

the girl reacts negatively towards the 
father the father might not be an evil

man in himself but the girl might not like 
him or the father might be a difficult person

then there's generally later also difficulty 
tease with men and difficulties to find her own

masculine side in other words the animus 
her own masculinity is a problem to her

and such a woman also tends to 
behave towards herself as her father

did to her if the father was tyrannical 
later even if the father has died the woman

tyrannizes herself with ideas and opinions which 
still come from the father image and so the

detachment from the father and the relationship 
to the father plays always a big role in the

development of a woman can the negative animus 
interfere in the woman's relationship with her

children in the same way the animus actually does 
interfere with the maternal feelings in certain

women when they have not a strong maternal 
instinct then for instance the police chief

of police tells them that they should not get 
angry let's say a child misbehaves and whines

and spills the soup over the plate and then it is 
a natural reaction to get angry and to shout a bit

if it doesn't go too far it's quite normal for a 
child to accept that but then the chief of police

says no that's not good education the child will 
have a trauma and then she swallows it and gets

angry and does something much worse to the child 
that's why in this stream the woman goes to the

toilet and vomits she obviously swallows too much 
which she can't swallow which she shouldn't should

not swallow you vomit if you have eaten something 
you shouldn't eat and which your stomach refuses

she stomachs too much so I would have the guess 
that very often her children annoy her and instead

of howling on top of your voice you are impossible 
brats go to hell she swallows everything and

children like strong reactions if they are carried 
by a loving undertone if it I have known I was

once in an italian inn where a mason's woman was 
cooking for the whole in and around her were about

12 little children and she constantly holded them 
and banged them at the head and you saw I've never

seen as blossoming children because it was all 
carried on in a warm atmosphere of maternal love

can you give us an example of a 
well-known negative animus figure

well the classical example of the 
destructive animus whom the woman has

at all costs to escape is the famous fairy tale 
of bluebeard where she gets into the hands of a

uh into a castle where the owner she discovers 
secretly cuts up his has cut up and slaughtered

all his former wives and when she discovers this 
terrible secret she can only just with the help of

her brothers escape again so that is the classical 
image of the destructive animus if a woman cannot

escape these self-destructive and 
self-annihilating thoughts she

it might even lead to a severe psychological 
disturbance or at least such women who can't

cut can't escape their bluebeard become generally 
isolated bitter women who have no men loving them

and find no partner and live in bitter isolation 
if not worse situation these women are stripped of

their capacity for human love and affection it has 
to do with the animus namely with that they allow

self-destructive opinion impulses actions 
to rape their psychological personality

they rape so to speak themselves with the animus

I have for instance often when I have indulged in 
destructive thoughts about myself or about my work

dreamt of being pursued by hostile men the 
dream saying those negative thoughts are not you

they are hostile any anima in you and you 
should run away from these kind of thoughts

they destroy you if you stay with it could you 
be more specific well for instance just take the

woman who is annoyed with her little boy spilling 
the whole soup her natural feeling would be saying

damn it now you have again spilt the soup 
and then the pedagogic animus says in her

you mustn't speak loud to your little boy 
that's pedagogically not wise then she rapes

her feeling her opinion with her opinion that she 
shouldn't speak up she reaps her natural feeling

she rapes her feminine reaction by having an 
opinion that she shouldn't have a feminine

natural reaction can a woman's 
dream of rape be positive

I would say that depends on who 
rapes her if she might dream that

a powerful healthy

or in any other way positive figure reaps her 
then I would still not like it because it's such

a passive situation but you could say then she is 
overwhelmed by something positive but all together

rip if you use the word rape I would always say 
that is a bit too she's then too passive she

hasn't said yes to it and so it isn't quite 
good it's kind of a psychological happening

instead of a accepted situation so even if the 
raping partner is positive it is not quite it

we were talking earlier about how 
men become paralyzed by women's tears

the crocodile tears when they get hurt and you 
use the image of the animus of the woman becoming

this great hulk of a man and then picking the 
girl up picking the woman up as a little girl

and holding the little girl in front of him so the 
animus then can come from behind and smash the man

but shielded by the little girl which the man hits 
if he tries to strike back at the attack coming

at him from the animus can you talk about that 
image well that is only a simile because women

like to do that double play to a man when they are 
in the animus they brutally attack the man or they

viciously with their tongue attack the man and 
when the man hits back they say they are such

a delicate frightened little child and now the 
brutal man is attacking them again though they

have attacked first and so I always call that 
the woman having a gangster animus who uses the

woman like a little girl and puts it in front and 
one can't shoot down the gangster because he puts

the touchy little girl in front of him so that 
one cannot shoot at him and that's what women

they play at the same time the touchy little 
girl who the man may not say to them because

they are so uncertain of themselves and the 
tyrannical man makes them even more uncertain and

they don't the man doesn't listen to them and so 
on and at the same time they themselves viciously

attack by making childish remarks or aggressive 
remarks to the man but say the man is moved by

the woman's tears what's he supposed to do smash 
her generally men feel very awkward when women

cry and they feel and the women try to make 
me men feel guilty and so men feel guilty they

feel they are brute who has made their they have 
made the woman cry and so they feel uncomfortable

and awkward and they generally react in some 
inappropriate way because they feel cornered

when jung describes a woman locked in the 
animus he says that she's possessed she's

animus possessed that word is usually connected 
to religion to witchcraft or to primitive tribes

there you have wonderful states of possession 
when for instance certain mediums go into

trance and then they are possessed by a certain 
godhead you have that for instance in hawaii

certain people go into trance and 
then certain godheads female or male

enter them and then they speak in a changed voice 
and the god speaks through them then they are

possessed by a god they call that they become 
the horse and the god becomes their rider and

I have a book on hawaiian states of possession 
and there is a photograph of three different

male mediums incorporating the same guard leg bay 
and they make exactly the same movement though

they are as human beings different when they are 
possessed they behave all in the same way they are

possessed we would say by an archetypal figure 
collect by a collective figure now in waking up

these mediums sometimes don't remember what 
they have said in the trance state they have

been entered by a spirit now this is an extreme 
of something which is normal in every human

being we the whole day long we are our field of 
consciousness is entered by autonomous complexes

you can notice that if you watch your own 
trend of thoughts then for instance you are

in a friendly loving mood and then you suddenly 
think of something negative and then hatred and

bitterness enters the scene and a quarter of an 
hour later you muse revenge about something which

has been done to you and then your inner scene 
changes again and you think of something else and

you get again in we constantly switch moods and 
therefore if we watch ourselves we are many people

I could give you a whole list of what kind of 
persons I can be I can be an old peasant woman

who thinks of cooking and end of the house I 
am a scholar who who thinks about deciphering

manuscripts I am a psychotherapist who thinks 
about how to interpret people's dreams I am a

mischievous little boy who enjoys the company 
of 10 years old and playing mischief to adults

and so on I could give you 20 more such characters 
and they suddenly enter you and that's a guy

and if you know it you can steer it you can 
for instance keep them out of your system or

play them and put them aside again but if you are 
possessed it means they enter you involuntarily

and you act acted out involuntarily now for 
instance the mischievous person I can I can

call up and send back to sleep again when I feel 
now there's enough I can't afford that yeah now

that's not possession and so that is one of 
the aims of psychotherapy to help people to

get on with their inner family of souls without 
getting possessed by them and key and to keep a

constant identity of themselves now the animus 
is the most frequent possession in a woman that

she's certainly entered by a 
mood of male determination cold

generalizing thinking opinions are of an impulse 
towards rash brutal determined action which is not

at all in her feminine character which changes 
her character you even see in a woman when she

gets possessed by the animals that her face 
expression changes her eyes change her mouth

expression of her mouth changes I notice that 
when I get in the animus I do this I pull up my

shoulders like somebody who prepares for attacking 
battle when I do that then I know oh stop it relax

I was once told that it didn't matter if I 
understood a dream what was important was that the

dream understood me my attitude toward the dream 
would determine its attitude toward me it's a

living dialogue when we listen to dreams we change 
and when dreams are heard they change here are

four dreams of an air stewardess that demonstrate 
what happens when dreams are listened to

okay I had this dream about flying that I could 
fly sort of like samantha and bewitch just

straight through roofs just disappear and I 
was flying through the roofs up into the clouds

it could also produce a gray mist this would 
encircle me so that nobody could see me

I could still see through it I could still 
see other people but nobody could see me

and I went up to about cloud level and 
just sort of sat there just weightless

and sat there and had tea with somebody 
else this dream is difficult to interpret

because the outer situation of the dream is flying 
so that the flying has a double connotation it

means what he actually is doing and it also has 
a symbolic meaning how how she is psychologically

behaving but naturally one can also say it is 
not by chance that she has chosen that profession

so it in a deeper sense naturally the meaning is 
one and she's flying in midair and she can even

veil herself in a gray mist which she produces 
and here I would rather take the slightly negative

connotation of the flying namely this weightless 
sipping tea on a cloud all the connotation shows

a very light and unrealistic attitude 
a delightful but unrealistic attitude

there is no earth anywhere 
there and having a cup of tea is

even an expression in english for saying 
light chatting light social contact with

people nothing substantial tea doesn't nourish 
it's a stimulating drink on the grey mist

you see a stewardess has very much to play a 
role she has to be the charming geisha waitress

of the air and nobody is interested in her private 
life in and in her as a woman and a human being

therefore there is also a temptation to constantly 
have slight flirtations but not very deep going

relationships which are also very much disturbed 
by the time program of stewards and stewardesses

it's a different very difficult life through the 
time program that's why an extreme comes where

she's in prison I was in a jailhouse one of the 
old fashioned kinds from the western movies the

just the wooden building with the one main desk 
in it and behind that you can see the just the two

three jail cells and the guards were talking about 
how they've been a lot of jailbreaks recently

there was also two prisoners one who came out 
of his cell and went to take a shower and he

escaped and the two guards were discussing 
this and they said well it was very strange

that there'd been two jailbreaks in one evening 
and then they all turned around and looked at me

and I thought it was very suspicious and then I 
woke up that prison I would take as the timetable

in which she is imprisoned it is a 
very difficult profession because

let's say the stewardess the dreamer meets a 
man she likes well she can stay with him two

hours at airports and so but she has to take 
the next airplane back evening so-and-so she's

constantly in prison and except for short 
holidays she cannot break free from that

and also suffering from the jet lag there 
is generally a big physical discomfort

in this profession an irregularity of sleep 
and physical discomfort which makes these

people even more uprooted and not connected 
with their body and with their own depth

even the dreaming business is difficult for a 
stewardess she sleeps once a day time once early

in the evening once late in the night and when has 
she time to record and think over her dreams so

it is a very difficult profession and that's why 
also in aging it's good for young people who like

the spirit of adventure which is connected with it 
but generally in aging there's a strong wish comes

up to retire from it and therefore to break free 
from that prison and have a life where you can

more give it a creative form your own life so 
to speak your own private life and give form

your own life the on live part of this dreamer's 
life becomes obvious in the next dream her friend

sue raises mischief because she's neglected and 
bored she dreamt that she lived with her friend

sue I had this dream about my friend sue and the 
two of us were sharing a two-bedroom apartment

it was a large apartment and

she was out of work though and quite often 
when I came home from work I'd find the place

disorderly and messy and it really got on 
my nerves and one time I came off the flight

got home and sue was there but she'd spilled 
some red wine all over this light gray carpet

I was really annoyed because it stains and it's 
hard to get out so we went down to simpsons and

spent a whole day looking for cleaning utensils 
it was up to one floor and down to another one

and bought a sponge and some bleach and 
finally went home to clean up this mess

finally got that cleaned up and arguing about 
it and all and my mother came up for a visit

and sue left and my mother and I were talking 
about the two-bedroom apartment was it really

worthwhile having this extra space for the hassle 
it was causing so we talked about it and I went

downstairs to see her one bedroom because she 
lived in the same apartment building to see if

maybe I shouldn't go back to living by myself in 
this one bedroom so we were talking about that and

then my mother just fades out of the dream I 
went back to work and came back from a flight and

I wanted to do my laundry and for some reason 
didn't do it in the building but I packed it

all up and took it with me and went way up to 
this girlfriend's place that lived at yonge and

willowdale and got it up there but her and her 
husband started arguing about the fact that this

was kind of silly like why was I there doing my 
laundry and I really shouldn't have been there at

all then they started having this party and there 
was people dancing and I was dancing with some

it was a woman but she was weightless 
and I had to keep holding on to her

so the laundry must have been finished because 
I left and I went back to the apartment

but as I was walking towards 
the apartment the whole

all the apartments were on this balcony sort of 
and you walked along this whole outside railing

and then you opened your own apartment or 
went right into it we were about 12 floors

up and hanging on the railing just outside 
my own apartment was my brother and he'd

been tied up and he was unconscious 
and he'd been tied up for quite a while

and it was a trick to untie 
him without letting him fall

so I went back into the apartment got scissors and 
stuff and started untying them really carefully

and while I did so I pulled him off off the 
railing and off the balcony and dragged him

into my apartment put blankets all over him 
and knew he was going to be all right cleaning

and washing is mostly a woman's connection with 
the earth with the body with the material world

it's an expression of love towards matter devotion 
to the principle of matter and all that in her

flying condition psychologically and outwardly 
she cannot do if if the dreamer could leave

the susie side of her personality 
there wouldn't be such a difficulty but

because she cannot leave the side which likes to 
be in the doing the household which quietly lives

introvertedly daydreaming while washing up washing 
up is a marvellous creative creation where one can

hang on one's own fantasies and thought or a woman 
can think over her dreams and such things and all

that she cannot do and so susie is cantankerous 
and makes mischief and all sorts of trouble and

in the end we'll see that he even hangs the 
brother of the dreamer then the dreamer goes

to do laundry but she doesn't do it in her own 
house she goes to some friends far further away

in town and just washes the dirty linen there and 
what's the significance of her doing her laundry

washing dirty linen is to sort out all the little 
shadow things one has done to dwell on them

you see generally if we do some with 
mischief against our will if we do some

harm to our friends or forgetting something 
important also we are for a moment aware of

east but we push it aside we forget about it 
as quickly as possible oh yes that's annoying

and in the afternoon already one has forgotten 
while the good things one remembers all the time

and so the that one accumulates a lot of 
dirty linen and has from time to time to do

washing actually and a psychotherapeutic treatment 
is not mostly washing dirty lean and people say

my friend said that and that gossip against me 
and I got angry and so and then you find out and

you find out that there is a shadow projection 
upon each other we both project the shadow upon

each other and it comes out in petty little 
quarrels and jealousies and so on that's

dirty linen isn't it interesting that at the very 
moment that she's doing her laundry she suddenly

starts dancing with this peculiar woman that she 
has to hold up that weightless woman is probably

her again another shadow figures of her are 
another part of her personality which has no

weight no substance we say about somebody what 
they say has no weight or they as a personality

have no weight and that is somehow they have 
no psychic solidity no substance one doesn't

one doesn't feel the other person as somebody 
substantial and that comes because she doesn't

what gives us substance strangely enough is 
our shadow our shadow is the positive thing

that girl that girl's shadow is weightless because 
she does the washing of the dirty linen outside

that means probably she enjoys a lot 
of gossipy criticizing other people

among colleagues and so on but never refer 
takes it home she never takes it home to herself

and she never asks and me what am I doing to 
the others she hasn't realized her shadow yet

and therefore her other personality 
is weightless in a negative sense

in the last part of the dream she's surprised to 
find that her friend sue has hung up her brother

her association with the brother was 
that she's supporting his education

we can take the brother jan who is hung up as 
her own possibility of studying and making a

mental career probably his her mind personality 
that is the masculine side in the womb in her mind

somebody who goes for a university career 
in herself she probably neglects that or

rather perhaps she cannot leave it in her present 
profession and therefore it is projected onto her

brother she gives all her money and devotion to 
the brother that he can make a career and kind of

vicariously then enjoys the brother studying 
while she actually should do that herself

she by that she quits developing her own career 
further obviously she is a girl who should not

stay in the hostess business but has a good 
mind and should go for a change of profession

but her shadow hangs up that brother and her 
soul shadow would be in her that mechanism which

projects onto the brother the man who makes 
a career the person who makes the career

and sees it outside instead of seeing 
inside she has therefore to take

down the brother and then he might drop 12 floors 
down the great danger is that if she would realize

that she herself has to do what she's 
paying her brother to do for her she might

drop and to drop in a dream has generally to do 
with a sudden disappointment in giving everything

up to let oneself drop into nothingness so to 
speak that would be a reaction in her to say oh

I am hopeless and nothing will ever come 
out of me I can't make it I'll I give up

and then just throw herself away into the street 
literally and not make the effort to build up her

know her own personal life and that is a dangerous 
moment of transition when she therefore takes that

brother down and brings him in to bring him into 
the flat her flat is in the 12th floor would mean

to bring home instead of saying well 
why am I paying the career of my brother

is it not my is it not me myself who needs to do 
something more than being a hostess that would be

bringing home the brother into her own inner realm 
and that is a dangerous enterprise she has to is

which is recommended at the end of the dream and 
which she seems in the dream to succeed to do so

what about that section of the dream in which 
the dreamer is discussing with her mother the

possibility of leaving sue and moving into 
a one-bedroom apartment with her mother

the mother is a down-to-earth practical person 
therefore would probably represent in her

somebody who suggests always a shortcut practical 
solution now the shortcut practical solution if

your shadow annoys you is to avoid him to 
go away and have your flat on your own to

not live with sue that would mean the most 
practical thing is to repress the shadow

you see that when you want to talk to 
people about their shadow they switch

they just switch conversation they say 
oh by the way I wanted to tell you and

they talk about something else that's 
the practical way of getting rid of sue

but it's not really practical it's practical 
at the moment but one pays for it later

why is it that dreams tend to use close friends 
to reveal the shadow side of the personality

because generally when makes 
friends with one shadow figure

tell me who your friends are and I have the 
whole panorama of yours good and bad qualities

the bad qualities have also an attraction a 
fascination for one the friend can do the things

one cannot do the friend is generally the person 
whom one envies the friend is more elegant or

dances better can move about better in outer life 
or has depth and has a better mind or something

and that is fascinating so there is always a 
kind of love hatred with the shadow and with

one's friends if when if one hasn't worked on one 
shadow one has with one's friend also generally

a love hatred relationship in the next stream 
the male figure appears in a very negative form

but the dreamer handles them very easily I 
had this dream about being in a large airport

there's a large city airport there's 
people everywhere it was very crowded

and there were also a lot of guns 
there was there's people shooting i

don't know it was a lot of confusion it 
was big and it was crowded and it was noisy

there was this one guy that kept he seemed to 
have it out for me kept following me around

and I kept hiding from him and wherever I went he 
would find me and he kept aiming this rifle at me

and I didn't like it and I was really frightened 
and so I kept hiding and he'd come back

and at one point I finally looked at him and 
I said listen I don't want to die I don't

like the stuff with you aiming your rifle 
at me and he went away he got up and left

now here we have no longer what we call the shadow 
because it is a contrasexual figure which turns up

an unknown man who points a rifle at the dreamer 
first they are just rifles everywhere and shooting

around in the scary situation now thinking of the 
dreamer as a host as we can say that she might any

minute get into such a situation with the modern 
terrorist methods and so on and it probably picks

up that situation the dream picks up that 
fantasy and brings it into reality and

there is a kind of psychological chaos in 
her when it comes to the masculine side of

her personality that has to do with the dreamer 
having had very little contact with her father

and in those cases in a woman there is no 
reformation to relate positively to a man

in later life because there is she the 
first experience of a man in her life is

practically missing and therefore you one has 
this chaotic situation she doesn't know really

how men are and how to relate to men she knows 
how to put a grey mist around her and appear as

the attractive woman to them but when it comes 
to establishing a human relationship she is in a

scary falls into a scary chaos but then one man 
singles himself out in the situation which is

progress in the dream a confrontation with the 
man but he's unknown so it would be the man

how she experiences him outside of herself 
and also her own masculinity being in a woman

knowing what she wants goal orientedness power 
strength all these qualities which he needs

well a male figure is certainly not hung up in 
this dream this man has pointing a rifle at her

rifle in general is a phallic masculine symbol 
and again points to pointedness to goal goal

orientation to accurate to be able 
to want something and to accurately

have it in mind and go for it that is in a woman 
generally a more unconscious quality and therefore

appears either projected onto 
men as an inner masculine figure

and this man points the rifle negatively at her he 
threatens her and she becomes frightened and then

she suddenly realizes that he is responsible for 
her scary situation not she in general when the

counter sexual inner figure the in a woman the 
animus is negative towards her that takes form

in having very sharp and negative judgments about 
oneself you are nobody you will never make it men

you men don't like you they only want to have sex 
with you but nobody loves you you'll never find a

husband you are not really a good woman your life 
will always go on as meaning meaninglessly as

it's now and these kind of destructive thoughts 
self-destructive thoughts which put themselves

between her and her femininity and her possibility 
of relating to an outer man in a positive sense

therefore it is a great progress in the dream 
that he wakes up suddenly and thinks it's not me

it's that man and he's responsible that's as 
if she could in that moment disentangle and

realize that those negative thoughts are something 
outside of her it's not herself as if she would

say it's not me thinking that it's only something 
in me thinking that which I need not to believe

can the animus be transformed as easily as that 
just by bringing to consciousness I remember once

I dreamt that murderous burglar came into my 
bedroom and I woke up with a cry of fear and i

went through what I had thought the evening 
before I had had a very peaceful quiet day

before which didn't amount for such a terrible 
dream and then I remember that before going to

bed I thought the book I'm writing is 
all nonsense and I must throw it away

and I thought I really I thought that then when I 
had the dream I thought no I don't think that it

thinks that in me and I needn't believe it and 
I could disentangle from the negative thought

I don't accept it and the miracle happens 
in our dream that by realizing this

what is that negative stuff in me which always 
says you are nobody and you'll never relate

properly to a man blah blah blah blah that's 
not me at that moment he gets up and walks away

it's as simple it's as difficult and as 
simple as all that the dream shows her

if only you can wake up and see that this 
isn't you you can send that devil who gives

you those negative thoughts against you away 
from you and then you can develop as a woman

born franz has emphasized that the face that 
we turn to the unconscious is the face that

is reflected back to us in other words if 
we are angry we often get an angry response

back from the unconscious if we are diffident 
the same kind of diffidence comes back to us

it's very important when we feel 
ourselves being chased by a demon

that we stop and hold instead of running some 
people run for a lifetime away from this thing

that is running after them if we can just 
stop and turn around and say what do you

want bring in all the strength you've got 
to say it or to look this thing in the face

it's amazing how you may get an answer and 
it will tell you what it wants it may say

I want to love you I want to 
know you I want you to know me

and the demonic may suddenly 
become the its opposite

the band of cowboys shoot 
pregnant women and children

an ex-husband and his friend stop 
a woman from swimming a river

christ appears as a furry dog with golden eyes a 
woman's inner man can make her life heaven or hell

in his negative form he's a seductive swindler 
who cuts a woman off from her feminine identity

but in his positive role he brings her 
spiritual strength and connects her to the self

in this sort of open stretch of river in the water 
a group of people including my nearly ex-husband

and a colleague of his so I was quite fond of and 
I found that they wouldn't let me swim I really

like moving when I swim and every time I started I 
found that they were restricting me and this made

me feel very unhappy and I woke up at that point 
many men say that the day they got married the

relationship was over put the ring in the finger 
and the woman disappeared is really truth in that

jung once said women are absolutely lovely 
and charming and chase the men till they reach

the point of being married and then they transform 
into devils and harass the man from morning

till evening and so on and that is because 
marriage is being pinned down into a specific

destiny and situation and 
something in the woman resents it

before you are married you can dream about 
what you could do would do you can dream about

marrying a film reporter and traveling all over 
the world or marrying a rich man and doing this

or marrying a farmer and having your own farm 
or whatever your desires are you are your life

is full of possibilities but as soon as you marry 
that man you love and you want to marry then you

are pinned down to him for better and for worse 
and something freedom-loving in the woman resents

it and that's why generally these kind of negative 
animals countersexual figures come up and attack

attack them and that becomes very often 
even worse during pregnancy because as

long as there is not a child on the way one 
can still toy with the idea one might divorce

but if a child is on the way then one is really 
pinned down for the next 10 15 years for sure

and therefore the wild freedom-loving side 
in a woman revolts and attacks negatively

a few weeks ago when I was entering my fifth 
month's month of pregnancy I had a very unsettling

dream I've been having quite a few and other women 
in my prenatal class have been saying they've been

having rather upsetting nightmarish type dreams 
but this one for me was particularly upsetting

I was standing out in the field and there were

fields all around me nice rolling hills to one 
side on my left side there was a farmhouse a

big old farmhouse that could hold a lot of people 
and I realized I was part of sort of a ranch farm

commune just then I looked up to my right and saw 
some cowboys riding down a hill who were also part

of the commune when they reached the bottom 
of the hill they started shooting at people

that were coming out of the house mainly women 
children pregnant women old people and I was

very upset to see this and asked what they were 
doing and they said that the only way they could

make a profit was to get rid of the surplus 
people that the commune could feed everyone

then but to make a really good profit they'd 
have to get rid of some people this is a

typical dream which many pregnant women have 
the state of pregnancy especially for a modern

active woman a very difficult state because for 
the sake of pregnancy and for the coming child the

woman should fall into a state of amusing brooding 
quietness pregnant women should be able to live

a quiet rhythm of life and naturally their own 
impulse towards action and outer activity comes

into conflict with that in this dream I was coming 
up pitchcombe hill and I was on a bicycle with a

group of friends and I was amazed by how much puff 
I had as I was coming up this hill and I felt full

of vitality I was actually able to overtake some 
of the people that I was cycling with when we got

near the top of the hill I noticed great clouds 
coming over and that we were going to have a storm

some of the men that I was with suggested that 
we stopped to wait till the storm passed so we

got off our bicycles near the top and looked 
down across the valley then we saw a huge wave

in the distance and out of this wave came some 
enormous fish which which slithered along the

ground and came towards us one of the men that 
I was with said that he thought they must have

come all the way from the south seas and then he 
said that he felt that the armageddon was coming

at this I felt slight panic but also a comfortable 
feeling because I was surrounded by friends and

I felt that it would be all right how can a 
pregnant woman deal with her negative animus

generally the poor husband has to pay for 
that he is the one who cast it he has put

her into that pregnant situation and into that 
pin down situation and modern women then see

now I'm always in the confined to this flat and 
I cannot fulfill my personality and I cannot do

what I want to do and it's his fault though 
she wanted to marry him it's now his fault

and what's the solution to that that she does as 
much as she can develop her personality that she

doesn't discuss that she's that she says now 
I have my husband and I wanted him and I have

a child and I wanted that child and that's all 
right but that doesn't prevent me from developing

what else I have and want to do you we have 
to do simply both continue to develop your

independent personality and accept the earthly 
confinement in face naturally there are

one can't have the penny and the cake I often 
say to young women look here you wanted that

husband you wanted those children now you can't 
throw it all over and go to the university and

become a prof university professor you have to 
make a compromise but you can for instance study

do some studying in spite of having children and 
prepare to later build up a more masculine career

when the children are older and go to school 
and then it there's still a second half of

life where a woman can fulfill her more masculine 
desires how to live in this dream the male figure

takes a very different form well in this dream 
I was in a very dark deep cave and swimming the

water was very dark and at the far end of the 
cave there was an enormous rock and on the rock

there was a small ginger-colored furry dog 
with gold eyes and the animal was smiling at me

and I knew that that this little dog represented 
the christ I don't know how I knew that but I knew

it now this is the idea of the inner christ in 
the depths of the soul is not out there in the sky

as christian teaching wants to have it or in some 
metaphysical spiritual realm he's in the depth of

the earth and the earth is an image for matter 
for our body for our physical existence and in

the cave is so to speak has always been a sacred 
place in former ages and long after we don't live

didn't live anymore in caves the sanctuaries were 
still in caves they were so to speak in the womb

of the goddess earth or the goddess of nature so 
the cave is the depth of the inner nature and the

dream says christ is not some model figure as you 
have been taught a spiritual something you have

to follow it is something which you find when you 
go into the depths of your own being then in the

womb of mother earth you find him but he appears 
in a strange form he appears as a dog the dog con

the zoologist konrad lorenz once said the dog was 
the greatest and best kong conquest man ever made

by taming the dog and making him his companion he 
is that represented of the animal kingdom who has

adapted most to us I mean that's why we can take 
him even into our houses and compared to the cat

he's much more domesticated he has really given up 
his whole way of life and sacrificed it to become

our companion probably the dogs were accepted by 
man because of his hunting quality they helped the

hunting gathering societies do in the hunting

and later they became the shepherd dogs who were 
protecting and keeping the herds together and the

watchdog protecting from rubbers and burglars 
and danger so the dog has become a tremendous

cherished helper of man in all his most former 
important jobs and therefore he carries the

projection of being the companion the best 
friend and companion of man the psychopomp

in modern dreams very often generally the 
dog represents also our instinctual nature

which has much more flair the dog is oriented 
by his nose dogs actually dogs are short-sighted

they don't see very far but they hear very 
well and their nose is 20 times better than

ours and so he represents the instinctual 
flair or intuition where our computerized mind

doesn't know any further way the dog sniffs it 
dogs have a strange relationship to the other

world to the land of the dead and the land of the 
ghosts in the land where the dreams come from to

that what we call the unconscious because of their 
instinctual nature for instance in practically all

religions of the world the dog is the guide of the 
dead in the other world when the people have died

they have trouble to find the beyond and the 
land of the ancestors or the paradise or the

clan or whatever the beyond of the dead is in 
every religion and there's everywhere the idea

that there is a dog who has to be used as a guide 
to bring the dead there therefore in the whole

civilizations mongolian civilization elderly older 
mongolian civilizations the dog of the master was

always buried with the master the horse and the 
dog and when a pregnant woman died one gave her

two dogs in the grave one for her and one for the 
not yet born child and to guide them in the other

world and for instance in persia in old persia 
when somebody was dying one brought the dog in

and the dying person had to give a bit of bread 
or meat to the dog as a ritual so as to order

the dog he should then come and guide him in 
the other world in many places also in africa

dogs are sacrificed for that reason on the grave 
of people so the dog has a strange relationship

to the underworld which we have still in the 
greek cerberus figure who is a three-headed dog

the most famous dog figure of the land of the 
beyond is probably the egyptian god anubis

who has a jackal head he was the god who surveyed 
embalming and embalming was transforming the dead

person into a immortal divine person a deification 
of the dead by a treatment of the corpse

and actually when while the embalming or the 
deification of the dead ritual was performed a

priest with a jackal head mask was super super 
weighing it anubis he was called the agent of

resurrection he was guiding one through the other 
world now there is absolutely one can not draw any

line between what we call the unconscious in 
the land of the dead what most mythologies

and religions describe as the land of the 
dead is what we would call the unconscious

and therefore you can see the dog is the one 
leader to the other world he to the dream world

he's the god the guiding god in the unconscious 
and that's why in our dream it is very fitting

that christ is a dog because he is a guardian of 
souls he is what watches over her soul and guides

her in the darkness of the unknown the golden 
quality which is stressed in the dream refers

to immortality because gold is the only metal the 
former people knew which is not corroded by old

age or by acids or so on you can bury gold and 
you can dig it up after 5 000 years absolutely

unaltered while silver copper iron everything 
rusts and goes away and so gold had all carried

always the projection of immortality eternity 
and highest value even to the fact that we still

have gold as the value standard of our monetary 
system though many people say that's quite useless

from a practical standpoint but it has a symbolic 
value gold is the highest value and that's why

most in most civilizations the figures of the 
divine figures are painted in gold or decorated

the statues are decorated with gold and so on 
to stress that it is eternal shining immortal

everlasting and so the woman realizes this golden 
dog is christ so to speak the way how christ

appears within her he would be an image of what 
we call the self of the inner guiding principle

is this image of the self masculine or feminine 
the dog in this stream is still more or less a

masculine figure as identified with christ and 
that is one of the problems of our civilization

that we have no divine feminine figure if a 
divine feminine figure appears it's generally

in the form of a kind of earth 
mother goddess or wise old woman

I just remember a dream of a pregnant 
woman she was very annoyed by her pregnant

she had a negative relationship to her 
own mother and women who have a negative

relationship to her their own mother generally 
have also difficulty with pregnancies vomiting

physical discomfort resentment against having 
to have a child and so on they don't enjoy

pregnancy and she was one of those women she felt 
hot and uncomfortable and was very unhappy during

her pregnancy till she dreamt that she was sitting 
in the earth in the cave looking at her pregnant

belly and suddenly she realized that above there 
was a floor above her transparent floor and above

her was a superior woman it was actually a woman 
she knew and down to whom she projected the self

she would but if we had asked her she would have 
said it it is a woman who knows more and is a

wise woman who knows about the secrets of life and 
this wise woman above her was praying to the stars

making a ritual and praying to the stars and 
through her prayer drops of water of life

where dripping down from the stars and coming 
and flowing through the transparent floor and

assembling in her womb and quickening and 
nourishing the child and she realized that this

wise woman the superior woman figure was helping 
her to carry the child and to so that the child

would come out right and she woke up very 
relieved and from then on she could accept

her pregnancy there the self appeared to her in 
order to help her to fulfill her task as a mother

in this stream the male figure appears as a 
disembodied voice this is one of those rare

dreams in which an authoritative male voice 
told me with absolute certainty what I must do

I was translating anglo-saxon and it came to an 
extremely difficult passage I was translating

the second chapter of matthew that came to 
the second verse and I couldn't understand it

and then a voice said to me this is your lone 
star and I woke up when I looked up the passage

in the bible it read where is he that is born 
king of the jews for we have seen his star in

the east and we have come to worship him and then 
I looked up the word lodestar in the dictionary

and a load star is a guiding star a star on which 
one fixes all one's hopes and one's attention

and it acts as a magnet to the soul that's 
following it and that dream I had 10 years ago

and the full meaning it I'm just beginning 
to realize she is occupied in translating

the christian revelation which comes from the 
east into her own psychological setup and language

which is a process of assimilating it of 
understanding it in her own way instead of just

believing what she's been told and there she has 
difficulty with the passage that's your lord star

the lord star means the guiding star like 
the star of bethlehem to which it afterwards

alludes quite clearly it is that passage 
which alludes to the star of bethlehem

which guided the kings towards 
the newborn little child jesus

the guiding star we had already before

in gilgamesh as being the principle 
of individuation one's innermost

divine destiny or cosmic destiny the meaning of 
one's life what guides one towards the absolute

individual meaning of one's own individual life 
and the dreamer has a difficulty first to find

that lord star but then she discovers that it 
is matthew 2 2 which is alluding to the star

of bethlehem that means a star which indicates 
a divine birth in antiquity one always thought

that if a new bright star appeared in the sky a 
future ruler or wise man or great man who would

save mankind who has appeared on earth and that 
is behind the story of the star of bethlehem

so the dream tells her that just where she has 
difficulty of understanding still difficulties

of understanding she will in her innermost being 
find the that christ is born within her own soul

the christ child represents the saving 
factor which is born within oneself

we are not divine but we are the 
stable in which something divine

is born there's a painting of holbein hans in 
which christ is portrayed carrying a lantern and

knocking on the doorway of the heart there 
you have the animus in his positive function

as the guide towards inner truth you have for 
instance very often in dreams of women male angels

or if you think of the french saint as jean-dark 
she was always guided by the archangel michael

and advised by the archangel michael in 
her political and heroic career so that

would be the positive animus whom I would call an 
innermost instinctual awareness of the inner truth

a basic inner truthfulness which becomes a 
guiding spirit for women towards individuation

towards becoming her own self that is the opposite 
to the negative animus who is a big swindler

so you don't feel that masculinity 
in a woman is necessarily negative

the masculinity is exceeding just 
as exceedingly positive as negative

it's only negative in certain aspects negative 
and mainly negative when women don't know how to

have the wisdom and don't know how to relate to it 
a woman who has no animus has no pep no enterprise

no intelligence no initiatives she's a very poor 
creature she's just a womb producing children

and a hand cooking in the kitchen that that's a 
woman without animals is nothing so the animus is

just as much an exceedingly positive thing it is 
the intelligence it's the spiritual longing it's

the whole spirituality of woman is connected with 
the animals but you can say the animus therefore

is has the range of extension 
between devil and holy ghost

do you feel a woman should 
be educated and have a career

a woman should be educated and should have a 
career but she should not be possessed by it

she should not be carried away by it otherwise 
she loses her feminine identity but if she

keeps her feminine identity then it 
adds to her personality a spiritual

dimension of activity intelligence and all 
positive qualities mix her into her personality

jung was always very much for women studying 
he said that women who don't make a career

or study or do some profession have 
generally even much worse anima state

leader seemingly feminine life at home as 
mothers and householders but the negate the

their masculinity then becomes something sour and 
negative with which they torture their husband

it's much better to occupy the 
animus then he makes less mischief

when we were first putting a title on 
this section we called it the shadow

of desire referring to tennessee 
williams streetcar named desire

blanche du bois in that play is an 
icon of a woman raised in patriarchy

she lives to please men she takes her own 
value of herself by what they think of her

she is obsessed with knowing how she can 
allure men into what amounts to her trap

for that kind of woman

the there is no way of working with the shadow 
until you recognize that it's the relationship

to the father that is driving her 
she is continually being ambushed

by that little girl's shadow just at the point 
where she seems to be standing up for herself

being the beautiful woman that she is something 
comes in from underneath and cuts her off

she has to please daddy or daddy's surrogate

it would frighten her if she had to go in 
another direction and be who she actually is

so long as she is in the power of that shadow 
she is not free she's going to look for

someone who can help her someone who can put a 
projection on her to give her life anything to

escape living her own reality which she can't 
find because the shadow is bigger than the ego

as dr von franz says

excuse me we cannot see our own backside but if 
our ego could see it it would find it contemptible

because you see we put out signs unconscious signs 
we don't even know we're putting those signs out

and we can see them in other people when 
they happen and we can think how could she

do that that's absolutely contemptible but in 
ourselves we either have to see it in projection

or recognize it in the dreams and say what is this

so to take that energy back to recognize that 
this is the relation to the father that is being

lived out is extremely important the compounding 
difficulty is that this energy aligns itself with

mother nature for the propagation of the race 
and therefore it may not show up in a marriage

until the children are 16 17 20 years old 
then the woman is able to be who she is but

so many women I remember once a woman said to me I 
squeezed the children's orange juice this morning

they just ran out the door they didn't drink 
my orange juice who am I if they don't drink

my orange juice and she meant it that's when 
you have to really deal with this shadow

and work it through to the place where the 
energy can be who you really are but you

look at the energy with the father was it sexual 
or was it spiritual now we move on to animus

the latin word for spirit it personifies 
the logos the rational thinking function

if a woman is married to him in his dark aspect 
that is she may be married to him in fact she may

also be married to him within herself probably 
both it may make her rigid and opinionated

she thinks she knows everything when 
she's alone she thinks she knows nothing

her aloneness feels like ice and glass to herself 
and to others because her ideas are not her own

she has not bitten them off chewed them 
swallowed them stomached them digested them

and evacuated the waste they are not 
part of her and so there is an emptiness

she dreams that her teeth are falling out

we know these shadow figures well

we buy a new dress

we're going to a party we look 
in the mirror hmm not sure

our partner or husband comes in and 
says oh what a beautiful dress darling

how lovely how lusciously buxom you are

and that's enough to get maggie really going 
neggy who is negI one has to have voices for

these other little creatures inside maggie is the 
negative animus and if you have a word like that

you could say that is his voice not mine and I'm 
not going to be put down by it if that voice gets

going it's the end of the party because 
when it's inner it's far more subtle

it's amazing how the inner animus finds 
the exact person outside to reflect him

the inner problem has to be 
worked out in the relationship

otherwise we just go out to the same disaster 
to work it out in another place sooner or later

if you are going to mature it has to be faced 
you have to separate the voices in yourself

if we leave empty space within ourselves or 
outside it can fill quickly with vampire energy

that figure can literally take hold of 
the neck separate the head from the body

separate the feelings that are coming from the 
musculature from the inner body from the thinking

that ends in loss of soul

the woman experiences herself as having been 
raped sexuality loathing and rage belong together

she loathes the man who would make love to a 
[ __ ] this is where the love of one woman for

another is essential for healing it is also where 
the black madonna can come into a dream with her

great beating heart take the dreamer on her lap 
hold her close and she can know that she can be

herself think how she wants to think do what she 
wants to do and be loved because that's who she is

we have to remember that vampire creates 
vampires vampire movies are still very popular

and millionaire survivors are the competitors 
who can endure the most humiliation

can anyone care about a million dollars for that

von franz has emphasized that the face that 
we turn to the unconscious is the face that

is reflected back to us in other words if 
we are angry we often get an angry response

back from the unconscious if we are diffident 
the same kind of diffidence comes back to us

it's very important when we feel 
ourselves being chased by a demon

that we stop and hold instead of running some 
people run for a lifetime away from this thing

that is running after them if we can just 
stop and turn around and say what do you

want bring in all the strength you've got 
to say it or to look this thing in the face

it's amazing how you may get an answer and 
it will tell you what it wants it may say

I want to love you I want to 
know you I want you to know me

and the demonic may suddenly become the 
its opposite remember those two energies

that are in opposition the contraries that 
make that huge energy once it starts to move

so to turn around and face that energy 
may be to turn the devil into christ

remember satan and christ were half 
brothers and lucifer does mean morning star

just to illustrate how alike and how different 
those two faces are I want to tell you a story

I had been in analysis about a year and I suddenly 
fell into a real despair no seeming reason for it

but I cannot endure inner chaos

so I decided that I would find out what was 
wrong with me and figure out how to cure it

I got all the books I needed from the 
library and I read day and night for a week

I figured out how all those complexes work how 
they bang into each other how they relate and i

knew what was wrong with me and I went back to dr 
bennett full of joy to tell him my great findings

and I talked for an hour as fast as I could talk

and I saw that he was wilting in the chair but the 
more he wilted the faster I talked and the more

I ran over the very top of him not thinking not 
realizing I was not wanting to but he was wilting

and I finally came to the end of my marvellous 
story with my great joy realizing that there was

some despair still simmering in the cellar he 
helped me on with my coat we went to the elevator

he turned to me and he said mrs woodman if 
I were you I would take my animus for a good

drink now on the surface that was a creative 
thing to do I did put my animus to work

I did the best I could to come out of 
the doldrums but in the actual situation

I rolled over him like an army tank I left no 
room to see him to relate to him in the moment

I simply was consumed with my own energy 
this is the tragedy of this kind of negative

what we call I call it the demon lover because 
it has the energy to be creative a fiery spirit

but if it is not related it is a killer spirit 
not only outside but inside this is the energy

that can move in anorexia when the what should 
be the life force the presence that is holding

the love that is holding giving 
other people a chance to open

into their own being when that is absent 
that energy can lure a woman to her death

and we have been looking at the shadow side the 
contra-sexual side and how to reconstruct those

all for the purpose of relationship that 
is where we are moving in this series

relationship is the most difficult to 
be ourselves in relationship is most

difficult and I tell you the 
longer I work at this analysis job

the more I wonder how men and women live on 
the same planet let alone share the same home

and the same bed that is god's country you 
have no idea what's going to happen there

what we are in now is a new vision of what 
relationship can be and von franz says we

have been through the liberation of sexuality we 
are now moving in to the liberation of the heart

after all said and done what every human being 
really craves is simply to love and be loved

we've created artificial hearts and put men in 
the moon but no one's ever figured out what makes

a human relationship work it should be easy we've 
got single bars computerized dating sexual freedom

but there's not a day goes by when a psychoanalyst 
doesn't see a person with a lonely heart

that can can be interpreted in two ways one 
can interpret it as relating to the fate of

women or relating it to the fate of the anima 
of a man I think first the women if a woman

has this tendency of playing the anima to her 
father father's little girl and playing the anima

she assumes a divine role because animus and anima 
are mythological or in primitive language divine

figures namely they belong to the 
dream world and not to outer reality

and therefore a daughter who is flirting 
too much with her father and getting into a

too close incestuous relationship with her 
father generally assumes has a certain secret

inflation she assumes the dignity of a queen she 
assumes that every man has to be at her feet like

father like she managed to bring forth with 
father and she develops a certain heartiness

feeling to be something special above 
the crowd and therefore she becomes

unapproachable to all to ordinary men a men who 
try to approach her feel she is a princess but

not somebody you can comfortably take into your 
bed and have an animal relationship with

you can relate to them so to speak only on a 
high level and some girls who have that

father's princess-like attitude therefore are in 
great danger not to marry or to have difficulties

in relating to men in north america many 
women are becoming involved in affairs

the basic requirement being that there's 
no feelings involved if feelings become

involved either way then it's over they seem 
to want unrelated sexuality how do you see this

I think it has two roots one the deeper root 
is that the many north american women are very

unhappy basically because of the whole 
way of the social life in north america

it is not enough rooted people move too much 
about women have very little chance to establish

roots to the earth to a garden to a house to a 
community to a surrounding where they can stay

it is this constant moving which rather pleases 
men but is very unfortunate for women and that

damages the women's instinctuality and then they 
want to replace it by sex because that is then so

to speak the last possibility to have something 
to do with their own body or to confirm their

own physical existence but it's a desperate move 
which is a surrogate for something quite different

a surrogate for having no feminine life no 
feminine rhythm of life the whole rhythm of

the north american life is too hectic for a woman 
it's not it damages women more than men it's not

good for men either but it damages women even more 
and then there is this whole world of advertising

and this whole I social idea of success and 
girls having to date boys and inquiring in

are you dating a boy already and so on and it is 
all so the whole relationship between the sexes

becomes an affair of success of social achievement 
instead of feeling and if a woman has not a strong

relationship to her own instinctual feminine 
nature then she falls for that kind of nonsense

women can run sex with the head so to speak 
completely cool without feeling as a means to

confirm their self-esteem I must have a 
man I must have an affair in order to

prove myself to be normal and because one
should have that because it is a success to

have a man in one's pocket but it has nothing to 
do with the instinctual real feelings of a woman

she overruns those with a theoretical idea of 
having to have a man and having to have sex

and then the whole thing is a cold power game 
which leads to nothing and then she runs a success

life trying to conquer men and putting
them in her pocket and boasting to

her girlfriends about it and it has nothing 
to do anymore with her real feminine feelings

would you elaborate on the fact 
that they want sex without feeling

no emotional commitment either way because when 
there is an emotional commitment there is there

is at once conflict and then one is easily hurt 
if one is emotionally and committed and committed

with one's feeling to a human being then one 
risks a lot of misunderstandings and hurts

because even the best partner will hurt you from 
time to time you are exposed you are vulnerable

you are dependent and such women don't want to go 
into that they are afraid of it they are afraid of

the complications of the heart so to speak and 
they prefer to run it like a cold businessman

just have the pleasure of it and goodbye 
nothing to do with you personally

because it is also a rejection of the 
feminine fate because it has always been

the fate of women to be personally interested 
in the man and to be therefore vulnerable and

what about losing your partner what about 
your partner going away with another woman

what about your partner traveling for years 
in foreign countries and not returning to you

that is the eternal pain of women because women 
want a lasting personal relationship and men

very often do not care about it or lead a life
where they cannot care about it too

much they have to attend their own business that 
is a tragedy between men and women and such women

who don't want personal commitment 
want to escape that tragedy

they want to escape suffering and 
they get into much worse suffering

naturally you talk about the instinct 
you're not talking about sexuality per se

the sexual instinct is one instinct but there are 
many other instincts as well there's the instinct

of self-preservation and there are social 
instincts and aggressive instincts there's a

whole host of different instincts and the animal 
represents the totality of the instinctual world

an animal never consists only of sexual desires 
a dog for instance those dobermans they have

aggression they have the need for food they have 
the need for affection they have the need for

being with other dogs and so on and on and so 
if a woman singles out the sexual instinct as the

only instinct and runs it with her head then it 
is counter instinctual because it's out of balance

it's choosing one instinct against all the others 
which nature never does and nature keeps a kind of

homeostasis or general equilibrium between the 
instincts and turns one instinct on and then

the other half and on and off again if we 
observe animal life they it's periodical there are

periods for the sexual instinct there are situations
for the aggressive instinct there are

situations of the collective herd instinct and 
so on those rhythms are regulated by totality

by the wholeness of the being so only man 
is stupid enough that he can pick out one

instinct and perform only that one instinctual 
performance and then naturally that is against

the wholeness of the instinctual world 
and then he does harm to his own body

and to his whole life but women's liberation would 
say that unrelated sexuality is an achievement

women can do now on a large scale sexually 
what men have been doing for centuries

well I think that as far as there are 
still victorian prudishness around

that is a good idea but it is the least of the 
problem because I would say that is now achieved

in our modern world a woman can live her 
sexual life as she likes and so that is no

longer the problem now comes the much bigger 
problem namely a liberation of the heart

that is the program of the next 50 years
liberation of the heart

there are two possibilities of human 
connection the one is technical

by the boss and the employee the bus conductor
and the passenger and so on and that is

organized by rules and even organized nowadays by 
psychological rules there are training programs

for managers how they manage the employees 
and so on and that is all rationalized

and the one thing which is always left out 
is the liking and the disliking and

the feeling reaction for instance what does not count
a woman would sometimes like to say

this sounds all very logical but I have a strong 
feeling against it nobody would put any

attention to that nowadays if she cannot formulate 
it as a logical deduction just to say my feeling

instinct tells me this is no good
then one just ignores it one walks over her

when men do the same thing men have feelings 
too but they ignore them they think they have

a funny feeling in their stomach and they think 
oh oh that is a jet lag or something and

they rationalize it away they don't 
listen to the reactions of the heart

and that's what so many so-called primitive 
people or so-called underdeveloped countries

people of underdeveloped countries 
reproach us quite rightly because whatever

their shortcomings are they listen more to 
those feelings they have to an australian

aborigine you could still say today I have 
a bad feeling I won't move out of the camp

or that fellow seems to make a very good offer 
to us but I somehow don't like him and therefore

I'll keep away from him that you can tell still to 
an australian aborigine but if you say that to a

white american businessman he'll just think 
oh well women on valentine's day little eros

takes out his bow and arrow and dusts it off 
and flies around and fires into our hearts

and our hearts get lonely and 
they get sore and hearts can break

have we built in our society a wall of 
rationality that his arrows can't penetrate

are we in danger of losing our 
capacity to love and be loved

I think that is the great problem 
number one of the aquarian age

that the only thing which might save us 
from falling in the east and the west into a

over rationally over organized mass society 
in which the individual is suffocated

and we have those slogans now in politics too 
much state too much organization and so on so

people are waking up to the fact of what is 
negative that the computerizing of humanity

that having too many rules
which are always impersonal they

are for everybody everybody has to keep the 
rules and so on all that massification which

comes from the fact of overpopulation it's 
not our fault the overpopulation demands

this organization but that 
suffocates the individual

while if you study primitive communities 
older agricultural communities everybody knew

everybody and everybody personally and related 
to each other personally for instance a lot of

idiots and mentally sick people didn't need to be 
internalized because the community just suffered

them they laughed and they said oh well you know 
so and so I even remember in a village I grew up in

the first day we moved in a man came and said my 
father is a kleptoman and he steals everything

so if things are stolen from you please don't 
go to the police just come to me and I'll hand

them back to you so you see the poor old 
kleptoman didn't need to go to an asylum

everybody knew his little fault and 
corrected it that is personal relationship

he belonged personally to the community 
including his faults and such a society

has less criminals and there are less 
people ready for the lunatic asylums there are

such a community can carry the individual or 
stand the individual and leave it a certain

leeway or freedom with a kind of shrug of 
shoulder oh well he is like that or she is

like that in a pardoningg shrug of the shoulders 
people are taken for what they are

and that's what we have lost and that's what 
we have to restore again in some new form

jung said that it's easier to be 
better than we are than simply

what we are in a relationship we try so 
hard to please the person that we love

and we feel so hurt when they aren't 
exactly what we want them to be

but relationships based on need fulfillment 
are rooted in power and they merely enslave

following the way of the dream leads 
to a different mode of relationship

a radically different form of love

dr von franz we said earlier that a 
man with a mother complex fantasizes

on an ideal woman who will fulfill his 
fantasies gratify all his infantile desires

he wants a girl just like the 
girl that married year old dad

how does that mother complex affect 
his personal relationships with a woman

when a man has a mother complex he has generally a 
split anima namely on one side his feminine side

he worships the feminine image too much it's a 
kind of virgin mary or feminine holy ghost figure

the pure wonderful woman so to speak and the other 
is the prostitute with whom he has sex but

whom he thoroughly despises this kind of 
split in the anima between the virgin mary and the

prostitute is typical for the mother complex 
and such men if they have to approach a

woman they don't know how to do it because the 
one here they admire too much she's too pure

you can't stretch out your hand and touch her the 
other is easily conquered but no partner really

just something to have sex with and such men have 
also in their own way trouble to relate to women

because of that split anima situation is 
promiscuity and a male connected with this split

I think the promiscuity has to do with 
something else it's simply that the

conventional christian barriers have been pulled 
down and the young generation now is experimenting

with sex all over the place and you meet 
among those men and young women who are

promiscuous all sorts of constellations 
mother complex father conflicts all sorts of

it's a more general fact of this 
experimenting nowadays because the

christian barriers against sex have been 
pulled down but then in the individual case

such a man would for instance date a girl who 
has a huge father complex and is therefore

unapproachable or who is unapproachable in a 
tower and always hesitate to go closer to her

or would even try to go to bed with her and 
not succeed and he would still be attached

to that girl and have cheap sexual affairs on the other side which do not satisfy him

that would be the situation in such 
a man he would be very unfulfilled

I'd like to talk more about your 
idea of liberation of the heart

differentiating it from sexual liberation

well feeling is my inferior function so I 
have a certain trouble to articulate that but

the feeling function is something 
which is completely neglected nowadays

now generally we identify feeling with affect 
and emotion but that is only inferior feelings

for instance in the musical happenings of young people  they liberate their feelings

but it mostly comes out in strong emotions 
and it comes out as a feeling of loving everybody

or destroying everything in a kind of all over 
the place way not individually pointed while

differentiated feeling is to love 
that unique person for its uniqueness

which presupposes that you are capable 
of seeing the uniqueness of the other

of getting rid of all schematic 
psychological judgments

it is ultimately something irrational and 
has to do with one's own development the more

one becomes a unique individual oneself the more 
one individuates in the jungian sense of the world

the more one becomes only able to also see the 
other person as a unique person and not have some

cliche judgment about them if you listen to how 
people gossip about each other you can notice that

80 percent of what they say about the other person 
is a cliche slogan and does not hit the uniqueness

of that person it doesn't define the uniqueness 
so liberation of the heart would mean to be

to become slowly capable of feeling and sensing 
the uniqueness of the other's personality

and to love that uniqueness and that doesn't 
mean this christian al-pardoning sweetie pie

strawberry sauce love of just all loving and 
pardoning everything it means on the contrary

a very great precision of feeling I 
noticed that people with differentiated feeling

if one talks to them in a not quite genuine tone 
or makes even a not quite genuine gesture of the

hand they are already shocked they feel the 
uniqueness and they want you to be yourself

I think that's the most important thing for a 
psychologist for instance to love the genuine

person of the patient and to be quite openly 
disliking all what is not genuine in the patient

then it brings out the other 
it brings out in the other what

he or she really is really meant to be by nature 
and that is real love a love which

heals or makes the other person whole which 
makes the other person more him or herself

and that has nothing to do with 
sentimentality or being just sweet or polite

exactly the opposite exactly the opposite
it's very tiring it's having constantly a

quick precise reaction to how the 
other really is or is not or should be

sometimes in the anecdotes of zen 
masters you find such things that a novice

comes with an ungenuine answer with a tricky 
intellectual question and the zen master just

hits him in the core of his real being can you 
think of one of those off the top of your head

there was once a novice came in and the master 
said look in the stove if there's still some fire

under the amber and the novci e looked and said 
there's no fire under the amber and he gave him

a hit over the head and said there is fire under 
the amber and in that moment the novice woke up

is there anything a man can do when 
he's attacked by a woman's animus

a man could just talk with her reasonably but 
a man just generally gets irritated and then he

can't talk to her reasonably anymore when she
in a childish complaintive reproachful voice

reproaches him all the time that he is guilty of 
all her misery then he having weak feeling feels

awkward and gets irritated either doesn't answer 
or slams the doors or picks up the newspaper

and doesn't answer or turns on the television 
and sulks and then she gets wilder and wilder

do you think this is more common now than in the 
past no I think it only comes more to the surface

women are great masters in keeping 
things hidden if if they want to and

in societies where women are not allowed 
to rebel they just swallow it all down and

turn sour and bitter and with us now it's 
allowed to rebel and therefore it comes out more

generally the man if the woman attacks him with 
the animus feels helpless and has a helpless vague

feeling that if he only could return her into the 
role of a woman she would be right and that's what

gives him the impulse to just grab her put her on 
the bed and say now you are a woman don't be a man

he expresses by that be a woman 
you are my wife you are not a man

and that's what gives him that impulse it helps 
sometimes the german word for convincing somebody

is überzeugen to over generate the other 
and one can sometimes convince the animus that way

I've known quite often the husband just 
grabbing his wife and say now come on

stop babbling all that nonsense and 
putting her right in the feminine position

so you believe there's a place for 
male dominance in a relationship

yes naturally there's a place for a man to 
be a man and a woman to be a woman otherwise

nature has made them that 
way it doesn't need to have

an attitude of dominance you can 
just as well say make love to her

it's just as much an expression 
of love so you can say

a man can sometimes break the animus 
possession of his wife by making love to her

it all depends how he does it if he 
has real feelings it'll reach her if he

acts that way nothing happens it only 
goes wrong that's why I never advise

him when I analyze a man to do such 
a thing because then he would do it

acting he would act it because I told 
him and then it would certainly go wrong

it only goes right if he 
really has a positive feeling

a wave of positive warm feeling towards her

yes but when the woman's crying and saying 
how can you do this to me and if you do

this I'm going to leave you is he supposed 
to he's got to sympathize an understanding

he has not to take all that bullshit because 
it'll only get worse and worse

and therefore he has to refuse all that nonsense 
and say when you talk in that whiny baby way to

me all sorts of nonsense I'm not even 
going to listen but he must at the same time make

a gesture that the woman feels if only she were 
herself he would love her for a man to deal with

an animus possessed woman is to love her
to give a hand to the woman to say I love

you I still love you and to slap the animus at the 
same time so that the woman feels when I'm myself

he still loves me when I'm not myself he gets angry 
and by that the man can help the woman out then

she begins to notice what is herself and what is 
not herself we will see it's the same

thing with the anima of a man you disagree with 
the woman's lib position you're saying that the

woman should just give way to the man let the man 
run it his way a woman just sits back and suffers

yeah but she can do also what 
she likes and men have to suffer

I feel there is mutual freedom married 
couples should give each other more mutual freedom

and more mutual understanding so there 
will be there will come moments where

I will remind the husband you know I convinced 
your wife not to put anything in your way when

you did that but now you must not put 
anything in her way when she does that

apparently we freed ourselves sexually in a 
society we're liberated from victorian prudishness

but affairs are still breaking hearts and 
causing a lot of disruption in marriages

what role does the complex play in the affair

well you think for instance of a wife and she 
learns that her husband has an affair then her

feminine feeling and her personal feelings are 
deeply hurt and if she would react in a feminine

way she would dramatically express to her husband 
that she's hurt instead of that the animus who is

the masculine side said such a thing cannot go on 
we must either divorce or he must stop this

affair so you must set him a time he must give it
up till the end of next month this affair must be

finished or not you see there this is talking like 
a lawyer this is not talking like a woman

and if she doesn't even feel that way her men 
friend and her woman friend will tell her you

must tell your husband that and then she sails 
and she goes and she tells her husband look

here this has to stop this can't go on forever 
I can't stand it you have to make up your mind

talks like a lawyer now the husband 
only vaguely feels this isn't my wife

this is a lawyer speaking to me and so he 
explodes or gets sulky or men very often

when the women come as a man they become 
women then they sneak out or they begin to lie

and that infuriates her even more and then you 
have the classical marriage battle which is all

over the world the same from china till canada 
you could make a cliche of it it's always the same

exchange of words but the woman doesn't 
notice that she doesn't express her feelings

she thinks she expresses what she thinks is 
true is her true opinion but if you look at it

the sentence generally begins with one 
cannot do that one cannot it's generally

a general impersonal cliche such a situation 
cannot be carried on one cannot behave like that

such situations always end like that
instead of having an individual feeling reaction

or what can the woman do then
there is no general rule she has to follow

her own feeling it depends on what kind of
an affair her husband has if she feels

he needs that or if she feels he's running into a 
disaster and she ought to prevent him if possible

it depends on thousands of details and that's 
why one can cannot give a general recipe

most women would say they don't have to put 
up with that stuff that's normally an animus

because it's a general opinion I have not one has 
not being a married woman one has not to put up

with that stuff that's a general opinion and that 
does not take into account the specific situation

for instance the poor husband might have not 
wanted to fall in love at all he fell into it

against his own will so why should the woman then 
be furious with him she should rather look at him

as being sick if he has the flu she nurses him 
and if he has love flu she won't put up with it

feeling if the woman stays with her feeling then 
she can see the whole personal implications and

she can see the whole situation in a very 
personal and differentiated way and then

she generally can find the wisdom to handle it 
somehow while if she falls into the animus then

she goes along with collective rules which 
make the man feel not to be understood anymore

most relationships begin by two people 
falling in love they meet their other half

their soul mate so to speak what happens when that 
projection is withdrawn is the relationship over

one cannot say that ahead generally when 
people fall in love like that in one second

it is mostly projection and many marriages are 
concluded on the basis of complete projection

and then comes therefore generally a period of 
disillusionment where both partners discover that

he or she are very different from what they 
had thought they were and then comes the great

test can they now build up a real relationship 
after the projection has gone or is nothing left

after the projection is gone there's nothing left 
there are two strangers staring at each other's

face and saying to themselves how could I that 
one can only decide on the dreams I very often

analyzed couple where after having worked
through the anima projections

one or both partners dreamed that now they could 
get married and they dreamt of a real

going to church and having a marriage ceremony 
and getting married at last as if one could

say the removing of the projection has made it 
possible to be really related this time for good

with open eyes saying yes to each other
with open eyes knowing each other

well before that was a kind of blind infatuation

in our society we make the most important 
decision of our life based on blind infatuation

well I think it's the best possible thing 
because historically otherwise

it's the families who have arranged marriages for 
many reasons and power reasons and family politic

reasons as it's still partly done in india and 
has been in good families in china and so on and

that isn't very favorable either then I would say 
rather let fate play and then it is projection

and in many cases if the people are 
instinctually healthy they do not only project

they have a healthy instinct choosing 
the right partner and if there is not a

father image or a mother 
image disturbing the situation

and then I can say even if it goes wrong then they 
have learned something and if you had prevented

them they wouldn't have learned anything they 
would have remained blind puppies so I think

projections and error and possible divorces 
sometimes are detour which cannot be avoided

it's tragic and very sad but we are now for the 
first time in history of mankind experimenting

with free love because in tribal primitive tribes 
it is all tribal arrangement or family arrangement

and has mostly a status background 
or a background of distributing the

possessions and so on marriage has nothing 
to do with love originally as an institution

and we can't do that anymore it's 
too impersonal it's too collective

so if we want to find personal relationship 
we have to experiment ourselves and I think

we will have to go through a 
lot of painful suffering and

men torturing women and women torturing men till 
we wake up to a possibility of relating better to

each other it's a unique experiment in history 
it's begun with the cour d’amour in france when

the knights could choose a woman they loved and 
serve and where they had free love relationships

in western civilization but promptly the 
catholic church has repressed it again

there were too many illegitimate children and 
family complications and inheritance problems

so the legalizing tendency of 
man has suppressed it again

I always say to my people when they are 
in difficulties I say this is pioneering

country where you are now for the first time 
in history we try out to really relate men and

women on a human basis and there is 
bound to be a lot of error and trouble first

the modern developments of psychology don't 
want to abolish marriage but they want to

make it a bit less tight less tyrannically 
tight especially when the children get older

young children need a close tightly family life 
and therefore generally the biological drives need

couples together in the early part of their 
marriage but after a certain while it is important

for and it has probably a social motivation 
if the community consists of all little happy

tightly knit families then there is no
general communal life there are little

packages not relating to each other only saying my 
children are better than your children so to speak

well therefore when the children get older there 
is generally a tendency of the unconscious to

not dissolve marriage but to loosen its tie 
to demand more freedom for both partners

so I'm for a certain freedom for the men 
but just as much for the women and fidelity

well the question is fidelity what the law decides 
namely that you may not go to bed with another

partner which might mean nothing jung said you 
can commit adultery sometimes by just looking

into somebody's eyes lovingly and that might mean 
more than having a bed affair which means nothing

so what is adultery what is fidelity fidelity is 
I think has to be something not so defined in a

purely outer way to me fidelity is a basic loyalty
to the essence of the other person

a loyalty without compromise to the 
innermost heart of the other of the partner

but that doesn't exclude that one has 
takes a certain freedom and leaves the other

to have a certain freedom on the contrary if one 
loves the other really one wants him to be free

one wants not to put him on a leash like a dog

and now we are arriving at the 
source what jung calls the self

the energies that have been coming together 
throughout this whole program and are held at

that core the divine feminine the divine masculine 
in the inner marriage this is not to say that the

energy is static indeed the images of the inner 
core keep shifting but the essence is the same

dreams tell us two things where energy is 
and where it wants to go night after night

over a hundred thousand during 
the course of a lifetime

if we look at dreams over a long period of time we 
begin to see meaningful connections between them

dr von franz in your work as an analyst have you 
observed an overall pattern in the dream life of

an individual there is still a lot of study to 
be done that hasn't been investigated enough

but I have noted my dreams now for 40 
years and I have some of my analysands who have

taken down their dreams regularly over 
years so that we have an overall

look of let's say 3 000 dreams I have here also 
left from a patient who died about three thousand

eight hundred dreams he was very conscientious 
he wrote every dream down

and there you see that it is like making 
a plaque it is one motif comes appears and

reappears there is something periodical 
about it one of my analysands for instance

picked out themes of his dreams the 
theme of fighting the theme of the father

the theme of he was a sportsman of sports 
the theme of his main problems so to speak

and then he noted that they are always coming 
up redisappearing coming up redisappearing

and one can if one follows up one strand one 
sees how the father problem or the problem

of doing sports or something slowly changes 
through it as if there's a slow gradual strange

that's why people are very often discouraged and 
say I still dreaming about father shouting at me

that's a dream I've had at the beginning 
of my analysis I haven't developed at all

but I always say wait a minute if we look at 
it very closely if we follow up all the dreams

you had about your father you will see there 
is a slight change the change is very gradual

but it is as if something in the depth of the 
person was cooking the theme and sending up

messages from time to time and you slowly 
see that there is a ripening of the problem

for instance the negative father figure becomes 
more and more amenable appears less dangerous

or something like that or you have a dangerous 
situation which occurs already in the beginning

dreams but and it occurs again in later dreams but 
in later dreams there's a solution to it there's

a little continuation which goes ends better so as 
if nature would slowly brood on those problems and

slowly develop them and that's the whole idea 
of dream interpretation by interpreting dream

by joining in with the conscious attention one can 
speed up that maturing there is a kind of natural

maturing process of a natural process of working 
out problems and analysis is nothing else than to

concentrate conscious attention on that mature 
natural maturing process so that it is speeded up

as if you would add fire to eat you would 
add attention to it and then it goes faster

our conscious life seems to go through definite 
stages of development childhood adolescence etc

do dreams show a parallel development there is 
an essential difference between the dreams of

very young people and of aging people and in the 
middle of life there is a transition stage where

it's mixed up but you can say that in general in 
very young people the dreams try to help them to

adapt to life there's an outward moving towards 
adaptation of life to fulfill the love life the

personal ambition the ego identity of the and all 
these goals of the first half of life and then in

the more people are aging after 35 40 years old 
there is an adaptation towards the inner life

finding one's own meaning of life that 
but nowadays even that becomes sometimes

urgent with young people we are so crushed 
by the mass-mindedness of our civilization

due to the problem of overpopulation everybody 
feels superfluous everybody feels if I would

be removed to the cemetery that 
would change nothing in the whole

reality mankind would just team on this 
planet and that would be just one less

who eats the food and that would be really a 
blessing so the mass-mindedness and the whole

our whole situation makes us crushes us and 
makes us feel superfluous and unimportant

in our professional life we can always be 
replaced by 20 others who want the same post

there's a bustling around about having 
the same position and that has a very

destructive effect on modern man either 
he compensates it by becoming ambitious

and megalomanic and wanting to be the 
top dog to at least achieve something

or he feels completely crushed and superfluous 
and there's a kind of sneaky depression coming

up in him and that sneaky depression you find 
for instance nowadays in many young people

they are kind of in a hidden way deeply depressed 
and discouraged they don't believe in their

own life and in the meaning of their own 
existence now all the dreams center around

pointing out to the individual the meaning 
the unique meaning of its unique life

and that is perhaps the most important 
aspect of dream life it is as if

you can say in the forest there are 2 
000 trees but if you look at it closer

and accurately every tree is a personality not two 
trees are the same they are all personalities and

nature becomes real or fulfills its 
patterns in unique individuated beings

that's why statistical thinking is so detrimental 
so harmful we think we say in this heap there are

stones of one kilo of weight but if you look 
at the stone heap itself there's not one stone

which is one kilo the one is two 
kilos and one is where a half kilo and

enormous amount of unique beings and dreams help 
us to find the unique pattern of our life that's

why one of the most frequent complaints in modern 
psychological practice is that people say my life

has no meaning and they shrug their shoulders 
they say my life has no meaning what for what

am I there for what's the use of it 
all I could just as well not exist

and there the dream are a unique help to point 
out what the unconscious wants of that person

namely what it wants that person to 
become that's often very surprising

I try sometimes to get to him to guess when some 
people come to me you see what will come out

of them is that a creative problem or will that 
girl who is so unhappily in love get her jack or

john or will and so on I never guess right it's 
always a complete surprise what comes out of it

and but after the event you see that is 
now uniquely the solution for that person

that's not a collective solution that's why we 
feel sometimes very discouraged in publishing

case material because people 
think ah that's the solution of

a depressive problem or that's the solution of 
an unhappy marriage problem or so it isn't it

is only the solution for that person the k of 
that case and in another case it's different

that's why it's even dangerous to publish case 
material in a way because people identify and

think it's their solution and it's not their 
solution it's that other person's solution

it's every time surprising and unique and that 
makes the work on dreams so exciting because

it never repeats and you can never guess 
it's always a creative answer of nature

dr von franz do you believe in predestination do 
dreams show that life is in fact predetermined

I wouldn't I think the theological idea of 
predestination is based on a feeling that there

is a pre-existing pattern and there is naturally 
a lot of a human life has a pre-existing

pattern if you only think of the fact that you are 
born as a man or a woman and that you are born as

a white man or a chinese man or that you are born 
in this place and not in another place and that

you are born in this family and not in another 
there is already a lot is predestined through that

there is a given pattern but there is also 
a certain leeway of freedom otherwise there

would be no therapy otherwise we could give up 
therapy and say people have to fulfill the pattern

of their life anyhow so what you can't change 
it and that's not true by making the pattern

by reading the pattern through the dreams and 
making them conscious we can give it a certain

turns we can for in a way not escape our fate 
but we can give it a pro a more positive turn

it makes a difference if we say yes to our fate 
and fulfill it positively as if we are resisting

it and drag to it and so we can say there is 
a certain predestination but it's not absolute

it's not like the fatalistic idea of allah has 
decided it and it will just go that way we can

and that's why therapy has a meaning we can 
by understanding the pattern of our life

givi change it a bit and avoid certain negative 
consequences of it give it a relatively more

positive aspect and is there such a thing 
as a death dream do dreams announce death

I have now just started a study on dreams last 
dreams of people before they enter the coma

and the dreams of dying people are not about this 
but generally about either a journey they have to

get ready for a journey or they have to go through 
a dark tunnel and be reborn into another world

through a disagree or they have to go through a 
disagreeable darkness or dark cloud to come out in

another space or they are going to 
finally meet their beloved partner

the that's the famous motive of the death as a 
marriage marriage with one's own other inner half

or they dream about when they are worried when 
they are strongly identified with their body

and therefore inclined to think that when 
the body is finished everything is finished

then they have dreams which try 
to detach them from the body

remember for instance dream of a man who dreamt 
just before he died he was a cavalryst that his

soldier came and said officer look at what 
I have to show you and he showed him the

decaying corp corpse of his horse jung interpreted 
that that it was saying the warm-blooded animal

which you are is going to die that's what's 
going to happen to it but it's not you

it's only the warm-blooded animal 
body which is going to decay but

not you yourself because he was looking at 
the corpse of the horse he was still there

so the dreams of dying people 
show a tremendous variety which

generally they are the same archetypal motif 
which comparative ethnology has found out about

death returns and death beliefs of life after 
death in the different human populations that

it is a rebirth that it is a long journey into 
another country that it is a transformation

that it is a partial destruction but something 
survives and so on there are very many motifs

earlier you told me a dream of a dying woman 
well that was a very simple woman and she told

the nurse in the morning after breakfast tonight 
I had a strange dream I dreamt that there was a

candle on the windowsill and it was slowly burning 
down and it began to flicker and I had a panic and

I thought my god now the great darkness is coming 
the great darkness is coming and then suddenly

there was a change and the candle was outside 
the windowsill on the outer part of the window

and was a big and burning quietly again isn't 
that a strange dream four hours after their dream

she died the dream seems to tell her yes 
the candle of your light is flickering it's

going out but it will continue in another 
medium beyond a certain threshold the

window would be an isolating threshold 
it is going on in another sphere

that very same life is going on she was very 
comforted by the dream without understanding it

and that is a typical dream of a dying person 
you have many such dreams for instance I remember

another dream which has been published by a 
medical doctor of a man who dreamt that he saw

an abyss and that the board of the abyss 
was a be growing a big tree and the tree was

slowly losing its roots and having its roots in 
mid-air and suddenly there was an earthquake and

the tree was falling down and he thought that's 
the end and at that moment the tree began to hover

in midair and to continue to exist in me there 
without having roots in the earth just going on

as if the unconscious would say your tree of life 
is not is losing only its contact with earthly

reality but it's not dying it's going on the 
life process is going on in another median medium

and that's the gist of most dreams of dying people 
that's why it is very worthwhile to continue

analysis with dying people many psychological 
schools don't bother anymore about old or dying

people because they think they have nothing to 
adapt to life anymore sex what about sex problems

when you are on your deathbed it's no longer 
something you can deal with you can see that

the voice of nature the voice of instinct which 
are the dream help the people to die in peace

and to comfort them when many people to whom 
I told such dreams objective that is wishful

thinking the dreams are wishful filaments but I 
don't believe it because as you see from the dream

of the decaying horse the nature does say the end 
is coming so quite unsentimentally and the candle

the flickering candle does go out in that old 
woman's stream but at the same time it says yes

something is coming to an end but there's 
something in another medium going on

it's very difficult to imagine how and 
what but we can only take it as as such

are there dreams that say a 
person is actually going to die

till they are actually dead you are 
never quite sure because once I had

for instance the experience of a woman who 
consulted me and she had cancer everywhere

all with the stars are all over the body and she 
had shocking death dreams she dreamt that her

watch was stopped and she brought it to the 
watchmaker and he said it can't be repaired

anymore she saw her favorite tree felt in the 
garden and it was gone and she and I didn't

even interpret the dreams to her she said to me 
sadly that clearly says the outcome of my illness

well her the doctors told her you will be better 
and it'll be all right and so on in the usual way

but she was sure she had a terrible shock from 
that and pulled up her sock and faced her problem

she had an unfair problem she hadn't faced and she 
I can only say she's still alive after 15 years

so she had these dreams to give her a death shock

and but it was like that she could 
have died and she could have not died

she choose to out of shock she choose to live 
and that's why since I have experienced that

I would say even if people have death dreams 
it might only mean that they should face death

it doesn't mean that it will actually happen 
but they it certainly means they must face it

they must come to a naked confrontation with 
the fact that their life might come to an end

but if that can give them a solid solitary 
shock to and they continue to live

or if it actually means now it is finished that 
I would never dare to say before the end has come

the days sometimes are kind of uncanny smell 
around certain dreams where one has a feeling

that forebodes death but that's more of a 
parapsychological mediumistic feeling one

has about it scientifically 
I couldn't give any reasons

why that dream means actual death and 
the other means only the problem of death

there's sometimes when one gets a 
gruesome shiva when people tell you

a death dream and then it's as if your 
nervous sympathetic system would say watch out

this really means death

based on your experience of dreams 
do you believe in life after death

I wouldn't say I believe in it that 
is a bit too strong I would say

it seems to me from the dreams that there is 
a life after this death and because I think

that dreams do not cheat and are not wish 
fulfillment there must be something going on

there must be an aspect of 
life or the psyche going on

the worrying thing about it which I would 
not the question I would not dare to answer

univocally is does it does life go on impersonally 
or does the personal ego what you feel is your

individual identity going on there are 
contradictory documents in that way

for instance if you take the dream of that tree 
you can say yes the life process of that man is

going on but not his ego he himself is no longer 
around on the contrary there are other dreams

which point to the fact that even the country's 
identity goes on so that is to me an open question

this is a question that's 
puzzled me for a long time

if dreams come from a source that is trying 
to guide our lives and are so interested in

giving us direction and why does the dream make 
you talk in chinese that has puzzled me too and

I have reproachfully asked him why does this 
goddamn unconscious talk in such a chinese and

difficult language why doesn't it tell us clear 
clearly write out what what's the matter now

jung's answer was it obviously can't it 
doesn't speak the language of the rational

mind the rational mind is one thing and the 
dreams are the voice of the instinctual animal

animal nature in man or even ultimately that's 
a very daring hypothesis but I'll venture it

the collective unconscious and an organic atomic 
matter is probably two aspects of the same thing

so the dreams are ultimately 
the voice of cosmic matter in us

and therefore just as we cannot understand 
the behaving of atoms and look at the chinese

language modern physicists have to use 
to describe the behavior of an electron

we have to use the same kind of chinese language 
to describe the deeper layers of the dream world

it leads deep into the mysteries of natures 
which is strange to our rational mind

we can you can best compare it 
simply to atom physics where

the most complicated formulas are not 
sufficient to describe what is really happening

and why that is so why nature has constructed 
our rational mind our cortical brain

functioning in a way that we cannot understand 
the whole of nature I don't know we are born

with a brain which seemingly can only 
understand certain aspects of nature

perhaps there will be later 
mutations on another planet

we arrive one night to our amazement 
at a dream such as we never had before

it just shocks us because it is full of 
new images new vision and it's saying

this was okay this far now we're moving in a whole 
new dimension and the images from that point on

radically shift such a dream you will hear in the 
last program a dream on how to interpret a dream

throughout this series we've been seeing how 
dreams act as an inner guide if we establish

a dialogue with them here's an amazing dream 
that reveals the nature of the dream itself

it actually tells how to interpret a dream I had 
this dream when I was studying to be an analyst

the night before a friend and I had sat until 
maybe three o'clock in the morning discussing

the problem of interpreting other people's dreams 
it's the first time in my life I ever attempted to

interpret another person's dream I was pretty 
worried about it that night I had this dream

at the beginning of the dream I was 
sitting in the center of a square

an old city on the ground sort of cross-legged 
a young man came into the square he had long

golden hair flying out behind he sat down it 
was new to the waist and we were sitting like

this facing each other in this square and he told 
me the dream and then I would interpret the dream

and as he told the dream a rock would fall out 
of heaven great big boulder and hit the dream

and the dream would split chunks would fly off 
the dream and it revealed an inner structure

that was made up entirely of nuts and bolts

and then another chunk would fly out of the 
sky another boulder and hit the dream and

a dream would chunks would fly off of it 
and more and more of this inner structure

was revealed it took the form of kind of a 
modern piece of sculpting or something like that

and then I went over and picked up a 
chunk that had been knocked off the dream

and it was made of bread and I 
said to him this demonstrates

how a dream must be interpreted you have 
to know what to discard it's just like life

and the dream changed and the youth and I now sat 
opposite each other but on the banks of a river

and the dream no longer took the form of the 
nuts and bolts skeleton and the bread it now

took the form of a pyramid which was made 
up the size of it made up of many colors

and each color was either a triangle or a cube 
it was as if this pyramid about five feet high

was shingled on all sides and these colors kept 
changing an incredible flux of color change and

I explained to him this was the way that a dream 
worked that it compensated as one color changed

then the other color had to change as one energy 
went there another energy had to go here and this

balancing was involved in what the dreams 
were about then again the dream changed and

the pyramid which had been so beautiful with all 
the many colors was now composed entirely of shit

and I looked at the pyramid of shit and I looked 
up and it was as if there was another pyramid

on top which I couldn't see and the bottom 
pyramid came up like that and it would form

an apex the top one being here the bottom one 
like that but this central area wasn't there

and I couldn't understand that and I looked 
down and as I looked down into the pyramid

of shit I realized the hand of god is in the 
shed those were the exact words that came to me

and then I knew why I couldn't 
see this invisible point

because that glowing white point was the face of 
god and no one looks at the face of god and lives

it was as if it were like a hole in a fence 
you can't see the hole if you haven't got

the fence that what's visible makes the invisible 
visible and then I woke up there's a great mystery

in the stream that character who's me in the dream 
is not me at all he's got a wisdom I don't have

it's as if he were present the conversation we 
had the night before regarding how to interpret a

dream and then he comes up with an answer because 
this is such a vitally important question he the

unconscious revealed him that beautiful dream as 
if the self as the center of the dream introduced

him or itself to him and say I am the maker of the 
dream look what it is and he first is in a walls

in the square of a world city in europe in old 
times since roman times walled cities were always

sketched according laid out according to a 
cross in the middle a square of a circle and

a cross in the middle in mandala form and the 
original mythological idea behind it was always

that the center represented the center of the 
world you have that in the pattern of the town

of rome and of all roman foundations and later 
in most medieval towns you have the same layout

it is really a mandala a world center so he is in 
such a square place so to speak in the center of

humans life and human civilization and there sits 
that dreamer the young man who tells the dream

and that is a blondie young man unknown young man 
who looks very vital and full of vitality we could

compare him to a son hero because the blonde hair 
generally associates to solar qualities he's the

enlightened one and also the healthy one within 
him we could even see in him already an aspect of

the self of the personality because ultimately 
the self is the dreamer the center of the dream

and the interpreter of the dream and we are 
only the clown who watches it all so to speak

isn't it amazing that we write it we direct it 
we produce it we're also the audience the next

section of the dream deals with intuition a large 
boulder falls from heaven and heats down that

probably has to be seen together with the fact 
that he asked himself how does one interpret dream

interpreting dream is not an art one can do with 
one's own rational effort one depends a bit on the

help of the unconscious when it depends on hunches 
coming from the unconscious which hit the mark

the dream interpretation is to aim in the right 
way and hit the mark to what clicks in the dreamer

and that's why it's very often 
when one discusses with people dreams

everybody brings another theory and one has a 
feeling yes yes yes yes yes it could mean that

it could mean then till somebody says something 
where and says that's it now I feel that's it

then the boulder has fallen from heaven we don't 
make that I always feel when I interpret dreams to

people if the unconscious doesn't give me the 
right hunch I'm lost I can stammer forever

but the unconscious thank god is very 
interested in the understanding of dreams

and generally helps one to hit the mark but 
it is really an act of grace from heaven

and as soon as we the interpretation 
hits the mark or hits home as we say

then it turns into bread of life whenever we 
understand a dream properly we feel nourished

the that is so to speak the super 
supernatural nourishment we need

insight from the unconscious that is very often 
represented in dreams as either the bread of life

or the water of life because it has to understand 
one's own dreams in the right way when it hits the

mark one is vivified and nourished and one has 
a kind of happy vivified satisfied feeling like

after having eaten a good meal one feels that's it 
now I know where from where to go now I can go on

something it becomes peaceful and satisfied within 
one and the boulder is hitting when those boulders

hit down some of the substance flies away the 
bread and what remains are bolts and nuts and they

slowly build up a strange pyramid-like structures 
so there is so to speak an outer form of the dream

and the dream essence and we can say yes the outer 
form of the dream is the sequence of images which

we have to understand which we have to follow up 
but then and that is the most difficult part of

dream interpretation we have to ask ourselves now 
what is the essence of the dream message what is

what does a dream tell in a few words what's the 
message and then we have to kind of penetrate

at the essence of the message divine 
message which is contained in that strange

shell of sequence of absurd picture images or 
difficult to understand images this essence

as far as I have seen always point to what I tried 
before to describe as the self they always point

to the inner center they are like hundreds 
of forms all pointing to the inner center

every dream is an attempt of nature to center out 
us to relate us again back to our innermost center

and by that thus to stabilize our personality 
will you elaborate on the nuts and bolts

what remains as structures are bolts and 
nuts they are the bolts could be looked as

a masculine symbol and the nuts as a feminine 
symbol in german the nuts are called mother

it therefore it's a union of the mask of masculine 
and feminine principle it's a union of opposites

and both with a nuts are there to connect to make 
connections how does this relate to the central

theme of dream interpretation we can say that 
every dream makes an essential connection between

our ego consciousness and our inner center 
a lasting connection everybody who has

observed and watched his own dreams over 
years will have a series of dreams in mind

of which he will inwardly say that dream 
and what it meant I will never forget

one is forever linked with it and through that 
dream one is linked with one's inner center

it's always struck me as strange the way that 
the nuts and bolts changed into the pyramid in

the dream then the pyramid itself transformed 
what's the meaning of the transformations

this pyramid which is first kind like an abstract 
sculpture or an abstract iron structure even then

changes into a softer symbol but that is the next 
part of the dream the question first is that dream

interpretation it is explained to the dreamer is 
to know what to discard and what to keep like what

like in life too that is just

really too because the dream has a surface which 
one has to discard for instance dreams dreams

being pure nature have you sometimes very absurd 
or very bad taste similes I remember for instance

a painter analysand who dreamt that he was taking 
a shit at the toilet and he produced so much and

much and much more that the toilet overflow and it 
did couldn't keep it anymore and then we found out

what happened the evening before he had started 
a painting and had taken a too small canvas

and then a lot of fantasy more fantasies came 
and he couldn't put them on the canvas anymore

and because he was a bit stingy he 
didn't want to buy a bigger canvas

and the dreams clearly 
commented but you see the dream

does not follow the rules of our good education 
and ideas of good manners it speaks a nature

language and the surface is sometimes very 
repellent or just stupid people always say

tonight I had just an absurd stupid dreams and 
that we have to discard the image so to speak and

break through to the meaning the images is not 
the important thing the meaning the message is the

important thing just as in life too as is said at 
that point the dream made a very fast transition

suddenly the settings by a fast flowing river and 
the dream was no longer the structure of nuts and

bolts and bread it was now a pyramid the pyramid 
would be maybe five feet high four-sided pyramid

and the size of the pyramid 
it was as if it was shingled

and the shingles were triangles and squares

and each shingle was illuminated with a light 
a colored light it would glow the colors kept

shifting and as the color would shift here another 
color would come on over here so it was always

balanced and I said to him this is how dreams 
compensate in the psyche that as the energy shifts

more energy here then it has to be compensated 
by less energy here and the dream changed again

the beautiful pyramid of many colors transformed 
into a pyramid of shit and it was strange because

it was as if there was another pyramid on 
top of the base pyramid it would go like this

and this central area here where the two would 
cross wasn't visible there was nothing there

it struck me as strange because it was the 
only point that would keep the thing together

and as I looked into that 
point that centered little area

it started to glow and it got more intense 
and more intense and then I looked down and

it came to me a realization that the hand of god 
is in the shed those are the exact words it is as

if the first part of the dream try to explain to 
the dreamer what the dreams are in their essence

and where they come from and the second part 
of the dream tries to explain to the dreamer

how do dreams function within the flow of life 
within the course of life the river is also an

image of time of the flow of time and that is 
naturally a question not only what does this

or that three means but what is the our the whole 
river of dream life we have every night what is it

what's the meaning of it where does that come 
from well what's the basic principle of its

aliveness and there the structure of bolts 
and nuts changes into a pyramid shingles

with thousands of quadrangles and triangles 
colored triangles and it is constantly alive

and moving now the pyramid that would be a symbol 
of what jung calls the self the innermost divine

center of the psyche it is a like an image of 
the self for men and women while women if it's

personified in men it's more a wise old man and 
if it's personified in a woman it's generally more

a wise old woman when it's not personified when 
it is what we one would call a mandala then it is

beyond the differences of sex it simply means 
the innermost center of the human psyche and it

is a pyramid which is built of four triangles 
the egyptian pyramids were built in this form

and the uppermost end the point of the pyramid was 
finished with such a fourth triangle stone which

finished the pyramid and that uppermost stone was 
we can't see that anymore because it's fallen off

but probably was covered with gold and it was 
oriented in a way so that always it was first hit

by the first ray of the rising sun why were kings 
buried inside these enormous pyramidal structures

the idea was that when the sun hits the point 
of the pyramid the this is the moment of the

resurrection of the dead the dead king who rests 
in the pyramid at that moment rises from his

grave and goes up to the bark of the sun guard 
and goes over the horizon the stone the stone

the pointed pyramid stone on top of the egyptian 
pyramids was called ben-ben and was a sacred stone

and was also connected with the word benu which 
is the word for phoenix the symbol of resurrection

so it is always associated with that part of 
the dead person because the pyramid is a grave

naturally which survives death and resurrects 
and lives an eternal life in communion with the

sun god and the when the sun rising sun hits us 
with its ray light stone this is the moment where

the dead person in it pharaoh in his grave 
is enlightened and rises from the dead and

awakes again from the underworld the pyramid was a 
living organism the changes were fluid and organic

they're unpredictable the dream 
stresses that all these many

shingles which make triangular and 
quadrangular shingles which make up the pyramid

are colored in thousand forms of colored 
nuances and that whenever on one side of

the pyramid one color nuances changes because it's 
in constant changing life then on the other parts

another color must be changed so that there is 
always a kind of fluid equilibrium preserved

throughout the whole pyramid that is one 
thing we observe is a function of what

jung calls the self the self this innermost 
regulating center of our psychological system

seems to aim at keeping the whole psychological 
system in a fluid balance that is has to do with

what we call the law of compensation what whenever 
we take on in consciousness a lopsided attitude to

rational or too spiritual or too materialistic or 
too driven by a single drive or too ambitious or

whatever you like if we exaggerate one aspect 
of our personality then the dreams compensate

by bringing up that which outweighs it to the 
other side that's why saint augustin after his

conversion to highest spirituality said thank 
god I'm not responsible for his my dreams he

must have had some who pulled him right down 
but he never tells us the law of compensation

seems to aim not as mechanically compensate if i

try to be good my dreams are bad or if I try 
to be too cheerful my dreams are melancholia

it's not a mechanical bringing in the opposite 
it is a compensation in view of a totality

as if to say you are lopsided not in itself but 
you are lopsided compared to your inner totality

that's what seems to be the essential 
wisdom of the dream to preserve a balance

of all thinkable psychic opposites and 
establish a kind of middle way or middle line

the unconscious seems to be very much in favor 
of the chinese yin yang philosophy or this idea

of the tao being a subtle balance of opposites or 
rather naturally the yin yang philosophy of the

chinese is based on revelations of the unconscious 
or on study being the function of the unconscious

it was a strange experience looking 
into the apex of that pyramid

there should have been a structure 
there there wasn't there was only light

just as in the real egyptian pyramid the uppermost 
point is the most luminous important part of

the whole structure so it is in this dream 
pyramid the upper point is empty space is

something invisible but which is at the same time 
radiating a light one is naturally reminded of

the buddhist teaching of nirvana being the 
uttermost point of emptiness of the self-being

not an empty emptiness but an emptiness full of 
life but having no specific delineable content

and being the source of inner enlightenment

I think now that zen buddhism and many other 
eastern meditation techniques have so wide

spread it is not necessary to comment much more 
on this it is that thing which the easterners

are striving for in all their meditation 
exercises and techniques they are so to

speak aiming at realizing that point of the 
pyramid it is a form of the representation

of the highest value in the psyche or the 
godhead or the inner buddha or whatever

the different school give it different 
names but it is always that same in a thing

would you interpret the final image 
when the pyramid turns to shit

now the pyramid consists of solid sheet there 
we have again an a union of extreme opposites

the divine the most sublime divine 
light and the shit and what it means

the most transient valueless thing we which we 
discard which we get rid of which we cannot digest

the thrown away stuff one is reminded 
of the fact that the alchemists always

said that the gold is found in the sheet the 
highest is found in the lowest and in certain

eastern schools of meditation it has 
been pointed out that after having

reached illumination one returns to the very 
ordinary life and the very ordinary life is also

part of one's illuminated life there's no 
contrast between having an inner illumination

and living the shitty life of every day 
even those opposites belong together

but what the light does is that it makes 
the hand of god visible in the shit

I think one can just leave that and say that 
that's it that's the essence of the dream

and if we see the hand of god in the sheet then we 
can stand the sheet otherwise we suffocate in it

that's the message of the dream pyramid

he dreamt he was a butterfly

and now he's puzzling all the time is 
he a man he dreamt he was a butterfly

or is he a butterfly who dreamt he was a man

are we the dream of the self 
or is the self our dream

it is so important in our culture that 
we recognize that our seed bed is power

and however we may try to disguise that

if we are honest we have to come back to 
that point work in our journals recognize

when we were helping somebody or when we were 
making certain plans we had another agenda

the unconscious picks up that other agenda 
and it interferes with the relationship

just to demonstrate how infiltrated we are with 
this turn on the soap operas in the afternoon

and you'll hear some whining 
beauty or some whining little girl

saying oh I love you so much darling I love you

I love you you will do what I 
want you to do won't you darling

and I just wish that some man would say no 
I won't it might wake the both of them up

because that is coming from power it's 
contemptible that two adult people can

fall for that kind of relationship but 
it is the shadow of power in both people

another way of checking that out is through 
projections you can find in your dreams

how you project onto other for example you may 
say of all the people in the world I do not

like why does she appear in my dreams over and 
over there she is and I can't stand her crucial

that you look at yourself and your behavior 
and claim that projection and say yes

that is how I can act I ask your 
friends who will tell you the truth

some friends don't tell you the truth that also 
can be power but you need to know that you are

putting energy out into other people that is 
yours and it's not only your worst it's your best

so that you pull that back and you 
recognize power or whatever it happens to be

if it is the best side you may be projecting 
your capacity to right your capacity to sing

whatever that divine contrasexual in you 
is you are projecting and you're putting

a terrible load onto the person you're projecting 
onto he isn't a god you are not a goddess

and you know I've had men say 
to me I give her beautiful gifts

and she looks at me she never says anything 
she says thank you very much but I know

I have just missed somewhere 
and I don't understand it

what he's not understanding is that she has 
projected a god unto him he's perfection

and he's not living up to that perfection that she 
is projecting nor is she taking the responsibility

of relating to that inner god and freeing up 
the relationship that two human beings can

truly love each other not through the miasma 
of the projections but as they are human beings

it's to come to the end of life and 
recognize that you were able to hold

the divinity and the relationship to the divinity 
in its both its demonic and its creative forms

and to recognize that you've had 
a wonderful human relationship

that you have remained in your own body you 
have lived your muscles and your own breath

and being a part of that reality you see 
otherwise if you get into that divinity

and it turns on you which it's bound to do 
then you start yearning for that demon lover

and that demon lover will lure you out of life 
and that will fit right in with your projection

onto daddy either he was so perfect that 
you couldn't live up to it he was god

or it went in the demonic side and you did 
everything to escape it and you ran straight

into it yes it's painful von friend says 
that we have spent years in the liberation

of sexuality and now the next 50 years are about 
the liberation of the heart that's where we are

the anguish is immense because religions 
don't want to recognize the differences

nationalities are different in their 
values to live your own truth is not easy

but that's the direction that we are going 
and we can see at the end of the line

that having walked through that 
shit we can also see the hand of god

I'd like to suggest one way 
in which the soul the self

soul and spirit combined in the divine 
marriage is the self how the self manifests

and I'd like to recite a short 
poem by a chinese philosopher

I dreamt I was a butterfly

and now I think

was i

a man dreaming I was a butterfly or 
was I a butterfly dreaming I was a man

we can't know that is the mystery

as we circle this center

and hold the mystery

an amazing thing happens

now you in your living room have been able to 
watch a couple of programs maybe four programs

in the evening or whatever but I suggest that 
sometime you immerse yourself in the material

10 hours a day and watch what happens to your body

you may find a totally new energy 
emerging we used to find that

when we showed the whole series in one weekend

people who were exhausted when they arrived 
on friday night were fully energized by sunday

because the self energy is released

you hold that place at center

if someone like born friends for example can hold 
that space let the whole outside world fall apart

everything that is superfluous 
leaves and you stay with that center

she's like a tuning fork that brings everyone 
else into that center and they can relax into that

place and feel their own soul emerging the 
eternal is quiet at the center of the transitory

as t s eliot puts it

except for the point the still point there 
would be no dance and there is only the dance

I'd like to give you a poem about 
the divine marriage broke his poem

this is the creature there has never 
been they never knew it nonetheless

they loved the way it moved its suppleness 
its neck its gaze mild and serene

not there because they loved 
it it behaved as if it were

they always left some space and in that clear

unbroken space they saved it gently reared 
its head was scarce a trace of not being there

they fed it not with corn but 
only with the possibility of being

and that was able to confer such strength 
its brow put forth a horn one horn

whiteley is store up to the maid to 
be within the silver mirror and in her

enjoy your dreams

you

you 

you