The Memory of Justice (1976) - full transcript

(speaking German)

Nein!

Geoffrey Lawrence:
That will be entered
as a plea of not guilty.

You see, I proceed
from the assumption

that every human
being is guilty.

I--

By degree, by association,
by being human,

if they did it here,

it is not that it could
not happen in America.

It is not that it
could not happen elsewhere.

Male News Reporter:
What happened here was
an accident of war.



Somebody made a mistake.

(baby whimpering)

(speaking foreign language)

Arthur Lord, NBC News,
on Highway 1.

(speaking French)

There were many men
who went to Vietnam
'cause they believed in it,

like I believed in it,
and went over there.

And there were many
men who went to Canada

because they believed
that it was immoral.

I think that I like

those men who went to Vietnam
'cause they believed,

and those men who went
to Canada because they believed.

(speaking French)

(man speaks French)



I knew I was, I was right
in what I was doing.

I think all the deserters did.

That might not have been

in the forefront of our mind,
exactly what it was--

principles like Nuremberg.

But after hearing
about the war

or, in my case,
after seeing it,

I knew what I was doing
was correct.

Most of these things
are not done by monsters.

They're done by
very ordinary people,

people very much
like you and me.

These things are results
of pressures and circumstances

to which human
frailty succumbs,

and a large part of it
isn't really due

to any intrinsic sadism
or desire to inflict pain.

It's... It's the degeneration
of standards under pressures--

boredom, fear,
other influences of this kind.

Well, I guess that
I did think before that, uh,

that Americans
in their history had been

somewhat more immune
to these pressures

and that the historical record
was a better one

and the moral standards
we tried to attain

in peace and war were higher.

I guess I still think we try
to attain the higher values.

But, uh, yes--
Ophuls:
And succeeded sometimes.

And succeed sometimes.
Succeed less often, I guess,
than I thought before.

I didn't want to see
the museum at Dachau.

Ophuls:
Why not?

I had, uh...

I guess some of it's
from my father.

He never talked about, uh,
about World War II very much,

and I didn't have
the personal desire to see

where, uh...

a number of thousands of Jews
were destroyed.

Uh, no, I didn't want
to see pictures of it.

I had no, no desire to see that.

(speaking German)

(Ophuls
speaking German)

(Ophuls speaking)

(Ophuls speaks German)

(piano playing simple melody)

♪ ♪

(woman speaking French)

(speaking French)

(piano playing simple melody)

(Vaillant-Couturier
speaking French)

Menuhin:
One of the, uh, clearest
recollections I have

is of a little gypsy child,

uh, whom I wish now
I had, I had, uh...

I had taken and adopted.

I don't know what
ever happened to...

little boy, I think,
of five or so, but--

Ophuls:
What struck you
about him in particular?

Oh, simply because
he was a gypsy child,

and I knew he'd probably play
the violin if he were given
half a chance.

(instruments tuning)
(muscians chattering loudly)

(tuning continuing)
(loud chattering continuing)

(conductor claps hands)

(instruments stop)

(silence)

(men speaking German)

(speaking German)

The privilege of opening
the first trial in history

for crimes against
the peace of the world

imposes a grave responsibility.

The wrongs which we seek
to condemn and punish

have been so calculated,
so malignant and so devastating

that civilization cannot
tolerate their being ignored

because it cannot survive
their being repeated.

(laughter, chatter)

(speaking in German)

Ophuls:
No, I...
I think it's fine.

It's really--
It's a little narrow here.

And too wide.
And a little large here.

But... But it's roomy.

(Ophuls speaks German)

(woman speaking German)

(speaking German)

(chatting in German)

Ophuls:
Reginchen, how do you feel
about my making this film?

I think I was dragging around
that skeleton in the closet

for all our...
all the time
of our marriage.

And I think--
I hope we will get over it.

(Regine speaking German)

(Ophuls speaking German)

(speaking German)

(Ophuls speaking German)

(sighs)

(in German)
Because...

(Ophuls speaks German)

(Regine speaking German)

♪ ♪

(man narrating in German)

(speaking German)

Man:
They needed a psychologist

who had been
in military intelligence

and, uh, I was assigned.

Ophuls: You were a captain
in the American Army
and you're a Jew.

I mean, were there any problems
in establishing authority?

Gilbert (clears throat):
Of course, as you know,

the Germans are
very rank-conscious.
Ophuls: Yes.

And, uh, that,
as a matter of fact,
proved handy

because I was able
to administer IQ tests
simply by telling them,

"I have orders.
You will now take an IQ test,"

and they sat down very
meekly and took IQ tests.

If I simply said that,
"I'm a psychologist,

and I'd like to know
how intelligent
you war criminals are,"

I obviously wouldn't
have gotten anywhere.

When the trial started,
if you recall
the grim picture

of the Nazi war criminals
in the prisoners' dock,

and they were leaning
into each other and
and mumbling something.

What they were
talking about was,

"What did you get on
that professor's IQ test?"

Uh, "How many digits
did you remember?"

"I got eight forward
and six backwards."

And this is what they were
arguing about at the beginning
of the war crimes trial.

(Kempner speaking German)

(Ophuls speaks German)

Marshal:
Attention!
The Tribunal will now enter.

There is laid upon
everybody who takes
any part in this trial,

a solemn responsibility
to discharge their duties
with justice.

The indictment
shall now be read.

This is rather
a unique document.

The original indictment
of the Nuremberg trial.
Ophuls: Hmm.

With the...

...handwritten reactions
of each of the defendants
That's interesting.

to this document
after they received it.

Sidney Alderman:
Hermann Wilhelm Goering,

Rudolf Hess...

Goering, who as you might
expect, was quite cynical
about it, wrote...

(speaking German)

Uh, Rudolf Hess, as you recall,
had this problem of amnesia.

And all he wrote was,
"I can't remember."

He wrote that in English.

Alderman:
Joachim von Ribbentrop...

Gilbert:
Ribbentrop wrote that,

"The indictment is directed
against the wrong people."

And what he meant by that
was that Hitler should have
been indicted,

but he didn't dare
put that down in writing,

because heaven knows
where Hitler was,

and he was still afraid of him.

You had Doenitz, who was,
uh, Hitler's final successor

as fuhrer for the last
few days of the Nazi Reich,
uh, wrote...

(Gilbert reading
out loud German)

"Typical American humor.
Karl Doenitz."

(speaking German)

Gilbert:
Uh, Albert Speer had
a rather different reaction.

He said...
(speaking German)

That is,
"The trial is necessary."

(speaking German)

(Ophuls
speaking German)

(speaking German)

(Ophuls speaks)

(Ophuls speaks)

The kind of thing
that Speer spoke of
really established

a realm of responsibility
for everyone in that system,

uh, potentially,
from top to bottom.

And that had to do
with the element
of guilty knowledge,

or the potential
for gaining knowledge.

(Ophuls speaking German)

"That the shooting
of uniformed prisoners

"must be carried out
even after

"they have
surrendered voluntarily,

and asked for pardon."

The next pa--
Do you see that?

(Doenitz
speaking German)

Maxwell-Fyfe:
Do you agree
that that is a reason

for giving top secrecy
to this document?

Maxwell-Fyfe:
You were commander-in-chief
of the German navy.

Do you say that you're not
able to answer this question?

Now, you have this final
opportunity of answering
that question.

Will you answer it
or won't you?

(speaking German)

(Ophuls speaking German)

Ophuls:
Ja.

(Ophuls speaks)

(Ophuls speaks)

(men singing in German)

(speaking in German)

(Speer speaking in German)

Taylor:
"...even if they are,
to all appearances,

"soldiers in uniform,
whether armed or unarmed,

are to be slaughtered
to the last man."

This order was issued
by OKW in 12 copies.

And the distribution,

shown on the second page,

included the three
supreme commands:

army, sea and air, and
the principal field commands.

(speaking German)

(mutters)

(Ophuls speaking German)

(Ophuls speaks)

(speaking German)

(Ophuls speaks)

(speaking German)

E.R. Kellogg:
These are the locations
of the largest concentration

and prison camps
maintained throughout Germany

and occupied Europe
under the Nazi regime.

Male Narrator:
As soon as our troops arrived,
arrangements were made

to remove these people
from the miserable
surroundings.

Nazis who formerly
maltreated them

are forced to help
look after the patients.

The staff of German nurses
is also forced
to attend the victims.

The women are able to smile
for the first time in years.

Ophuls:
Dr. Gilbert,
after the showing

of the concentration camp
film in the Tribunal,

you went to their cells
the same evening.
Yes.

It was surprising in that
the reactions went from
one end of the spectrum,

from apparent indifference,
to the most violent kind of,

uh, guilt-laden
self-recrimination.

Doenitz was
extremely indignant.

He, he thought it was a crime

to expose him
to witnessing the film, even,

because he as a naval officer
had nothing to do
with atrocities.

(Ophuls speaking German)

(speaking German)

(Ophuls speaking German)

(Ophuls speaks German)

(speaking German)

(Ophuls speaking German)

(Ophuls speaking German)

(speaking German)

(cheering)

(Speer speaking German)

(speaking German)

(speaking German)

(speaking German)

Well, to begin with,
Doenitz was about the least
unpolitical of the bunch,

and that probably is why Hitler
named him as his successor
when Hitler committed suicide.

Uh, but no, this, uh,
this is really,
uh, utter rubbish.

Frank Wallis:
The Nazi conspirators
adopted and publicized

a program of ruthless
persecution of Jews.

We have no accurate estimate
of how many persons died
in these concentration camps,

and perhaps
none can ever be made.

The Nazi conspirators
were generally meticulous
record keepers,

but the records which they kept
about concentration camps

appear to have been
quite incomplete.

Perhaps the character
of the records resulted

from the indifference,

uh, which the Nazis felt
for the lives of their victims.

But occasionally,
we find a death book
or a set of index cards.

For the most part,

the victims faded
into an unrecorded death.

Ophuls: Regine,
have the children
seen the film?

How old do you have
to be to see the film,
the concentration camp?

Forty-five.

Ophuls:
So don't you think
Catherine can see the film?

I don't think she should.
I, uh-- Well, she could,
and, and, uh...

Of course she could.

(Regine speaking German)

Ophuls:
Hmm.

(Catherine speaking German)

(Regine speaking German)

Ophuls:
Regine, what kind of picture
would you like me to make

for my 47th birthday?

(Regine chuckles)

A Lubitsch film,
or something like that.

Ophuls:
Something
the children can see?

Or, uh, My Fair Lady
all over again.

(record playing)
(train whistle blows)

♪ ♪

India Adams:
♪ I see a new sun ♪

♪ Up in a new sky ♪

♪ And my whole horizon
has reached a new high ♪

♪ Yesterday, my heart
sang a blue song ♪

♪ But today, hear it hum
a cheery new song ♪

I dreamed a new dream,
I saw a new face ♪

♪ And I'm spreading sunshine
all over the place ♪

♪ With a new point of view,
here's what greets my eye ♪

♪ New love ♪
♪ New love ♪

♪ New luck ♪
♪ New luck ♪

♪ New sun ♪
♪ And there's a new sun ♪

♪ In the sky ♪

♪ ♪

♪ ♪

Jack Buchanan, Fred Astaire:
♪ I guess I'll have
to change my plan ♪

♪ I should've realized
there'd be another man ♪

♪ I overlooked that
point completely ♪

♪ Until the big affair began ♪

♪ Before I knew
where I was at ♪

♪ I found myself up
on the shelf,
and that was that ♪

♪ I tried to reach the moon,
but when I got there ♪

♪ All that I could get
was the air ♪

♪ My feet are back
upon the ground ♪

♪ I've lost the one girl
I found ♪

♪ ♪

Ophuls:
This is really very beautiful
country, Schleswig-Holstein.

It's funny about Nazis
in Germany,

they always seem
to choose the loveliest
spots to live in.

We're coming
into Stocksee now,
which is the village

where the concentration camp
doctor Oberheuser lived.

She practiced here for years
after she got out of prison.

♪ ♪

(greetings in German)

(Ophuls speaking)

(Ophul speaks German)

Ophuls: Uh-huh.
(speaking German)

Ophuls:
Ja.

(Ophuls speaking)

(speaking German)

(Ophuls speaks)

Nein.
Nein.

Danke schoen.

Danke.

Ophuls:
Nuremberg,
November 21, 1946.

Military Tribunal Number One.

United States of America
v. Karl Brandt, and others,

better known as
the "Medical Case."

...and answer the questions
which I shall propound to him.

Walter Beals: Is your name
Hertha Oberheuser?

Ja wohl.

Beals:
Have you received
and have you had an opportunity

to read the indictment
filed against you?

Ja wohl.

Beals: Have you entered
your plea of "not guilty"
to this indictment,

and do you now plead
"not guilty" to this indictment?

(speaking German)

Beals:
You may be seated.

Ophuls:
Dr. Hertha Oberheuser was

a young and attractive
woman in 1946.

She was accused
of having tortured

dozens of
concentration camp inmates,

of having artificially
infected wounds,

of having administered
lethal injection.

(Ophuls speaking German)

(speaking German)

(Ophuls speaks)
Ja.

Ja.
Ja?

Uh-huh.

(Ophuls speaking German)

Uh-huh, uh-huh.

Ja.

(Ophuls speaks)

Ja.

Ja.

Ja.

Danke sehr.
Auf Wiedersehen.
Bitte.

(speaking German)

Alexander Hardy:
And in your affidavit,

you admit that you gave
five or six lethal injections.

Is that correct?

Nein.

Hardy:
Well, you gave injections,

and after such injections
the persons died, did they not?

(speaking German)

Hardy:
And this medical aid
resulted in death, did it not?

Did you hear that?

(translator speaking in German)

Nein.

I said, "And this medical aid
resulted in death, did it not?"

Hardy:
Miss Oberheuser, were you ever
given any awards or medals?

Hardy:
And for what reason
did you receive that medal?

(Oberheuser speaks German)
Translator:
I don't know.

Hardy:
Was it for
your participation

in the sulfanilamide
experiments?

Hardy:
I have no further
questions, Your Honor.

Ophuls:
The really interesting
reaction, it seems to me,

comes from her patients
after the war.

They did not abandon her,
and the medical authorities
of Schleswig-Holstein

apparently saw nothing wrong.

(Eugen Kogon speaking German)

(man speaking German)
(engine rumbling)

(Ophuls
speaking German)

(man speaks)

Ja.

(Ophuls speaks)

(speaking German)

(speaking German)

Ach so!

(Ophuls speaks German)

Ja?
(speaks German)

Ja?

Ja.

(Ophuls speaks)

Ja, ja.

(Ophuls speaks)

(Lilian Harvey
singing in German)

(Ophuls speaking)

Ja.

(Ophuls speaking)

Ja.

Ja.

(Bauer speaking German)

(speaking German)

(Ophuls speaking)

Ja, ja.

(Ophuls speaking)

Nein.
(laughs)

Beals:
Hertha Oberheuser,

Military Tribunal One has found
and adjudged you guilty

of war crimes
and crimes against humanity.

For your said crimes,
Military Tribunal One

sentences you,
Herta Oberheuser,

to imprisonment
for a term of 20 years.

The officer of the guard
will remove the defendant,
Herta Oberheuser.

(Ophuls speaking German)

Oberheuser: Nein.
Ophuls: Nein?

(Oberheuser speaking German)

(Ophuls speaking)

(Oberheuser speaking)

(Gophuls and Oberheuser
speaking in German)

(door closes)

(speaking German)

(speaking German)

(Ophuls speaking
German)

(Alexander speaking)

(Ophuls speaking)

(speaking German)

(speaking German)

(Alexander Mitscherlich
speaking German)

(woman speaks German
through intercom)
(speaking German)

(woman speaks)
Ophuls:
Ja.

Taylor:
In the important,
but sinister typhus researches,

the eminent Dr. Rose
appeared for the Luftwaffe.

Rose became a distinguished
specialist in the fields

of public health
and tropical diseases.

(coughs)

(Ophuls
speaking German)

(speaking German)

Ophuls:
Ja.

Taylor:
At Buchenwald,
numerous healthy inmates

were deliberately infected
with spotted fever virus

in order to keep
the virus alive.

Over 90 percent of the victims
died as a result.

It is our deep obligation
to all peoples of the world

to show why and how
these things happened.

(speaking German)

(Ophuls speaking German)

Ophuls:
Mm-hmm.

(speaking German)

(speaking German)

(speaking German)

Ophuls:
Ja.

(Ophuls speaks German)

(continues in German)

(speaking French)

(speaking German)

(Ophuls speaking)

(speaking French)

So, my initial connection
with Nuremberg really began

because I was ordered to become
part of the prosecution team.

I was in the Army.
I was given orders
to report to it.

And my initial connection
with it was not really governed

by any principled approach
to this at all.

Far wider are the duties
which we must fulfill here.

These larger obligations
run to the peoples and races

on whom the scourge
of these crimes was laid.

For them,
it is far more important

that these incredible events
be established

by clear and public proof,

so that no one can ever doubt

that they were fact
and not fable.

After all, I was not in
a high position at that time.

The ones who were responsible
for thinking it out and...

uh, providing the motivation
for Nuremberg, yes,

I think they were governed

by this desire to,
to articulate these principles,

to put them into application,
and to do it on a basis

that they would be willing
to see applied
to ourselves as well.

Although my initial connection
with Nuremberg was, uh,

was as I say... a matter
of response to orders,

I then did become
interested in it.

I invested nearly four years,
uh, of my life after the war...

in continuing
to conduct the trials

and was responsible
for the trials that came
after the first one.

I had signed indictments
against individuals

accusing them of, uh, crimes
under the laws of war.

Uh, men had been hanged
and imprisoned as a result
of charges that I had brought.

(speaking German)

(Ophuls speaking German)

(speaking German)

(speaking German)

(speaking German)

Beals:
Karl Brandt,

Military Tribunal One has found
and adjudged you guilty

of war crimes,
crimes against humanity

as charged under the indictment
heretofore filed against you.

Military Tribunal One
sentences you,

Karl Brandt,
to death by hanging.

And may God have mercy
upon your soul.

The officer of the guard
will remove
the defendant Brandt.

Ophuls:
How do you feel
about capital punishment?

Taylor: If you're asking
about capital punishment
in the United States,

I'm among its opponents,
because it has come
to be applied

in a... in a irrational way.

I don't believe that I am
completely opposed
to capital punishment,

however,
if one assumes that it is

in a measured
and rational application.
(trapdoor clatters)

How could I be?

Uh, if I had been opposed
to capital punishment,

I, uh, I would not have, uh,

been involved with Nuremberg.
Ophuls: Well, you
could've changed.

I mean, you could've been
in favor then and...
"I could have changed."

...in opposition now.
I don't believe so.

I don't think I've changed
in that respect.

(Rose speaking German)

(speaking German)

Ja.

The ability to, to live
with quite contradictory notions
in one's mind,

such as that we are working
to preserve democracy
and freedom,

uh, with our ally in,
uh, South Vietnam,

knowing quite consciously,
on the other hand,

that we have a corrupt dictator,
that we have installed,

and who is imprisoning and
torturing thousands of people.

The ability to hold
those two thoughts in your mind,

uh, not to question
either of them,

not to confront them
and not to draw any
logical implications,

especially from the latter,

the facts of what
we're actually doing,

uh, that's an ability which
is essential in an official.

And we all had it. I had it.
My bosses had it.

Rose (speaking English):
Nixon and the American
people have made

enormous sacrifices
for the interests
of their allies.

And I am conscious
of the fact

that the existence
of my state Germany,

and myself and my family,

depends on the United States,

which maintains
peace and order

among minor nations
who are guilty of misdemeanor.

Ophuls:
Isn't it a little paradoxical
that you should take that stand?

Because, after all,
you were prosecuted
by this American power.

Well, uh, that only

could prove that, uh,

I am a man who is not,

uh, determined
by prejudices.

Beals:
Military Tribunal One
sentences you, Gerhard Rose,

to imprisonment
for the full term
and period of your natural life,

to be served
at such prison or prisons

or other appropriate
place of confinement

as shall be determined
by competent authorities.

(speaking German)

(door opens)

(Serge speaking French)

(Beate
speaking German)

(speaking French)

(Beate speaking German)

(Ophuls speaks German)

(Ophuls
speaking German)

(Ophuls speaks)
(man speaks)

(woman laughing)

(Ophuls speaks)
(man speaks)

Ophuls: Nein.
Man: Nein.

(Ophuls speaking)

(speaking German)

(woman speaks German, laughs)
(Ophuls speaking German)

(Ophuls speaking)

Many people of that age
were involved.

And therefore,
the whole idea of...

of imposing
a guilt feeling on this
is very repugnant to them.

I think one of the reasons
why the Anne Frank movie
was so popular

was because you never
see any Germans in it.

You hear them
come up the stairs,
you never see anybody.

And so the German people
could get a feeling of,
"Ah, yes, it was all terrible,"

but nothing is ever
brought home to them,
as an individual about it.

Oh.

(indistinct chattering)

(indistinct chattering)

(speaking German)

(woman speaking German)

(man speaking German)

(Ophuls speaks)

Ophuls:
Ja.

(Ophuls speaks in German)

Taylor:
When we made
Judgment at Nuremberg,

one part of that
television show

consisted of clips
of the concentration camps,

and, uh, where gas had been used
as a means of extermination.

Um, just before the show
was put on television,

the producer
and the director were asked

to eliminate all
reference to gas.

Well, they refused,
quite rightly,

but when the show
was put on television,

the control, uh, switch
was pulled every time
gas was mentioned,

so the word "gas"
is never heard.

Ophuls:
Blipped out.
Uh, blipped out, yes.

The reason was that, uh,
one of the sponsors of the show
was Pacific Gas and Electric,

uh, which didn't like the idea
of having gas mentioned
in this unfriendly way.

(mechanical whirring)

(Willi Forst singing
"Du Hast Gluck Bei
Den Frau'n, Bel Ami!")

(no audible dialogue)

♪ ♪

(no audible dialogue)

♪ ♪

(speaking German)

(Ophuls speaks)

(man speaking German)

(man 2 speaks German)

(Willi Forst singing
"Du Hast Gluck Bei
Den Frau'n, Bel Ami!")

♪ ♪

♪ ♪

(speaking German)

(shouting in German)

Seig Heil!

(soldiers chanting
" Seig Heil ")
(triumphant music playing)

(chorus singing
"Es Zittern Die
Morschen Knochen" in German)

(Nixdorf speaking German)

(Ophuls speaking German)

(speaking German)

(Ophuls speaks German)

(speaking German)

(laughter)

(speaking German)

(Ophuls speaking German)

(Ophuls speaking)

(speaking German)

(speaking German)

(speaking German)

(speaking German)

Ophuls:
Ja.

Ophuls:
Uh-huh.

(speaking French)

(speaking German)

(Ophuls speaks)

(Ophuls speaks)

Ja.

(speaking French)

Ophuls:
Oui.

(speaking French)

(speaking German)

(Ophuls speaks German)

(speaking French)

(Beate speaking French)

(speaking French)

Ophuls:
Oui.

Ophuls:
Oui.

Oui.

(speaking German)

(Beate speaking German)

Ophuls:
Ja, ja.

(Ophuls speaks)

(speaking German)

(Serge speaking French)

(Kuenzel speaking German)

Ophuls:
Ja.

(Ophuls speaks)

(speaking German)

(speaking German)

Ja.

"The people who
had got off the trucks,

men, women
and children of all ages,

had to undress
upon the orders of an SS man

who carried a riding
or dog whip."

(speaking German)

Shawcross:
"I walked around the mound,
and found myself confronted

"by 30 naked people
lying near the pit,

"about 30 to 50
meters away from it.

"Some of them
were still alive.

"They looked straight
in front of them
with a fixed stare,

"and seemed to notice
neither the chilliness
of the morning

"nor the workers
of my firm who stood around.

"They had to put down
their clothes in fixed places,

"sorted according to shoes,
top clothing, and underclothing.

"Without screaming or weeping,
these people undressed,

"stood around in family groups,

"kissed each other,
said farewells,

"and waited for a sign
from another SS man

who stood near the pit
with a whip in his hand."

(Speer speaking German)

Shawcross:
"An old woman
with snow-white hair

"was holding a one-year-old
child in her arms and singing
to it and tickling it.

"The child was
cooing with delight.

"The couple were looking on
with tears in their eyes.

"The father was holding the hand
of a boy, about ten years old,
and speaking to him softly.

"The boy was fighting
his tears.

"At that moment, the SS man
at the pit shouted something
to his comrade.

"I well remember a girl,
slim and with black hair,

"who, as she passed
close to me,

pointed to herself and said,
'Twenty-three.'"

(Speer speaking German)

Shawcross:
"People were closely
wedged together,

"and lying on top
of each other,

"so that only their heads
were visible.

"Nearly all had blood
running over their shoulders
from their heads.

"Some of the people shot
were still moving.

Some were lifting their arms
and turning their heads to show
that they were still alive."

Women and children
have died thus,
murdered in cold blood!

It's understandable,
I suppose, that, um,

some Germans should resent
the Nuremberg process,

and understandable,
also, that the British

and the Allied powers
should, um, defend it.

What is that old maxim?

"My country, right or wrong,
but still my country."

Now, I'm not trying
to justify that ethically,
but it is a fact of life

that people tend
to think in that way.

I don't think that the Germans,
um, ever realized or...

or considered whether these
things were moral or not.

Ophuls:
Yes, but not only
were these acts

not discouraged
under the previous system,

they were
openly encouraged.

I mean, there was a whole
ideology that, um,

that made what was considered
by others immoral

into patriotic acts.

It's awfully
difficult to think

that those who took part,
for instance, in the, uh,

in the establishment
and conduct
of the concentration camps,

and the annihilation
of the Jews

can ever really
have thought,

if they thought
about it at all,

that it was a, a good
and a patriotic thing to do.

Millions upon
millions more today

mourn their fathers
and their mothers,

their husbands,
their wives,
and their children.

What right has any man to mercy
who has played a part,

however indirectly,
in such a crime?

(speaking German)

(speaking German)

(Ophuls speaks German)

(Ophuls speaks)

(Ophuls speaks)

(speaking German)

(Joan Baez singing "Where Have
All the Flowers Gone" in German)

♪ ♪

(continues singing)

♪ ♪

♪ ♪

(no audible dialogue)

(continues singing)

♪ ♪

♪ ♪

(continues singing)

♪ ♪

(applause)

(patriotic music playing)

(man narrating in German)

♪ ♪

(applause)

♪ ♪

Man:
They, they really seem
pretty enthusiastic

about the books
and things.

Did, did they know what
the books were, were like?

The new books, uh...

I guess I liked them very much
because they were prettier.

(man narrating in German)

Uh, what kind of, uh, effect
did the Nazi books
have on you?

So, do you
remember? Mm.
Oh, oh.

Well, I-I guess
I remember pretty well,

because there wasn't
any sentence in... in a book,

uh, that wasn't, wasn't really
referring to a propaganda.

I think you can't imagine
what, what it is, um,

being, being brainwashed
all day long.

Man:
So, your friends,
or were they

relations involved
in the Hitler Youth movement?

I was.
You were?

I w-- I was. Uh...
I see.

How did you get
involved in that?

Was it, um... I know it's
something that sort of spread
like a wildfire over--

No. No, it was just...

It was almost
compulsory.
It was--

Being a Jewish child,

surrounded by kids
that you played with,

and that became Nazis, I mean,
became Hitler Youth and so on...

you felt very much
you wanted to join, too,

and wanted to have
their jackets
and things like this.

Man: Of course,
you weren't allowed to.
Hardly.

All that you did hear was,
uh, you know, "Jew die."

Female Interviewee:
From the very beginning,

the trucks drove around

through Berlin yelling,
"Jews die."

(chanting in German)

Do you have any memories
of the destruction of temples

or children not showing up
at school? That's, uh--

Well, uh, the first, first,
uh, thing I have mem--

uh, I have memories
of was the burning
of the synagogue

around the corner
of our, of our house then,

and, uh, I just remember
the smoke coming out
of the building.

Next day, I went by and, uh,

I saw people jumping
on a piano in the rubble,

and that was something
that stayed with me

as an image of, uh,
of the whole thing.

Parents didn't
talk to children,

because the children
might denounce them.
Denounce them.

And I remember my-my sister,
my younger sister,

five years younger than I am,

um, she admitted,
uh, that, at one time,

she was thinking about
denouncing my mother,

and she's, she's a real nice,
nice, uh... woman.

She was also a real nice kid,
but she was thinking
about denouncing my mother,

because she was talking over
a garden fence to a neighbor

who, uh, was...
Ophuls:
Considered politically--

...considered politically
unsafe, and...

(drum roll, fanfare playing)

Male Narrator:
The March of Time!

♪ ♪

♪ ♪

Narrator:
Today, almost two years

after the last great
battles of World War II,

American troops
are still heading overseas

as occupation forces
for conquered Germany.

♪ ♪

But of America's
aims in Germany,

aims which may profoundly
affect the future of the world,

few of these
soldier ambassadors
of the United States

have any very clear idea.

You know how much money
we're spending on Germany?

I read the other day
it costs us $200 million a year.

Don't worry.
We'll get it all back.

They say with a few cartons
of cigarettes to start with,

you can get rich
over there in no time.

Yeah, and with just
a few packs of cigarettes,

you can up pick any
Fraulein in Germany.

Okay, okay.

But how do you like us
spending all that dough
on a lot of Krauts?

Narrator:
Today, Hitler's erstwhile
master race is living abjectly,

without initiative,
without dignity.

Its grandiose aspirations
reduced to an endless struggle
for mere existence:

for enough fuel
to keep from freezing,

for enough food
to keep from starving.

♪ ♪

We used to, for instance,
stole chocolates

out of the Jeeps
of the American GIs.

Narrator:
Opportunities to enjoy
life are plentiful

for any German girl
who is willing to fraternize
with American soldiers.

♪ ♪

Despite public resentment
of such fraternization,

thousands of Frauleins
have been quick to make
the most of their chances

to better their lot
by consorting with GIs

who can pay for
their company with both
entertainment and food.

(jazz music playing)

I worked to...
to bring home
something to eat

at an American Red Cross club.

I was working there
as a painter,

and we did sketches
for the GIs.

They stand in front of us
on a-- on a table,
turned the profile like that,

and we made cartoons of them,
and they like it very much,
and we were--

Our sign outside our
study was, um, uh,

"In five and a half seconds,
your picture taken."

Ophuls: What about the
anti-fraternization laws?

Weren't you a Fraulein?
I mean, were they 18?

Mm-hmm.
You were a Fraulein.

Mm-hmm. I guess-
I guess so.
(laughter)

♪ ♪

Narrator:
For all the lip service
Germans pay to democracy,

for all their servile
friendliness of manner,

the US military government
faces no obstacle more subtle

than the inherent arrogance
of an egotistical people.

♪ ♪

But at least America
is resolved to continue
the occupation

until the Germans give
conclusive evidence
of regeneration.

If necessary, for 40 years.

For of adult Germans
deeply affected by Nazism,
little can be expected.

Any hope that Germany
will ever become a responsible,
peace-loving nation

centers on the very young,

who have not been corrupted
by Hitler's doctrines
of treachery and aggression.

Who may still
be taught that Germany
can find greatness

only through freedom
and democracy,

in peaceful cooperation
with the rest of mankind.

♪ ♪

Time... marches on!

♪ ♪

I guess my feelings
about Americans
and the American history

have changed more than feelings
about the Germans.

Uh, the fact of the matter is
that, uh, when, when I began
with the Nuremberg trials,

I didn't have strong
anti-German feelings.

This is perhaps the result
of World War I.

You may have noticed
that I've got some old posters
from World War I,

uh, around here and there.

I was just old enough
at the time

to be aware of a great deal
of anti-German sentiment,

and I discovered also that
a good many of the accusations

about atrocities in Belgium
were more myth than reality,

and therefore, I went
into Germany with the feeling

that the Germans are not
very different from us.

(speaking German)

To most of us, it all seemed
to be of a piece,

that, uh, the United Nations
was going to be a better version
of the League of Nations.

It would tend to keep
the peace in the future.

(speaking German)

(speaking German)

Lawrence:
Will you state
your full name, please?

(Speer continues
in German)
Albert Speer.

(Nixdorf speaks German)

(speaking German)

All law is, um, created
by the victors
for the vanquished.

All law!

It is the majority
who will lay down--
Ophuls: Or the society in power.

Or the people in power.
Society in power
who lay down the laws.

And I have no doubt
that the first person

who, in the very early
history of our common law,

was prosecuted
and hanged for murder, said,

"You can't do that to me.
It's never been a crime before."

(speaking German)

What they've got to do,
I think, is to look
at the principles.

Not ask themselves,
"Who laid these down?"

But "What are the principles?"

And then ask themselves,
"Are these principles
right or wrong?"

And if they're right,
it doesn't matter a curse
who laid them down.

(speaking German)

(Ophuls
speaking German)

(speaking German)

The murderers
are the vanquished.

The law makes murder a crime.

Society makes it a crime.
Ophuls: Of course,
a Marxist would also add that

the laws on property
are the laws of those in power

against those who are
out of power, who may
be the majority, but that's--

Well, I'm not a Marxist,
I'm afraid.
(Ophuls laughs)

You won't induce me
to enter into an argument
about Marxism.

Shawcross:
There was quite a big
school of thought in Britain,

and, um, even more so
in the Soviet Union,

when they came into the war,
in favor of what was called
"executive action."

Which was that these men
should be, um, caught,

there should be a very
short drumhead court-martial,

and they would be executed, um,
out of hand in the morning.

The Americans were
very much opposed to this.

Americans, in those days,
at any rate, um,

had a great belief
in the rule of law
and injustice.

That four great nations,

flushed with victory
and stung with injury,

stay the hand of vengeance,

and voluntarily submit
their captive enemies

to the judgment of the law

is one of the most
significant tributes

that power has ever paid
to reason.

I think the British,
in the earlier days,

felt that the thing
would not have
the appearance of justice,

that it might be said
that this was a tribunal
composed of the victors,

that the defendants would not
be given a proper opportunity
of, um, defending themselves,

and that the trial would look
rather a bogus affair.

I think it was at the,
um, Yalta Conference,

Stalin said that
the proper course

would be to arrest
50,000 members
of the German general staff,

and execute them out of hand.

Uh, Roosevelt thought
this was a joke,

and he said,
"Well, perhaps 49,000."

But, uh, Winston Churchill
took it very seriously, indeed,

and he said that he would sooner
be taken out into the garden

and shot at once, himself,

than be a party to such
an act of barbarity.

May it please the Tribunal.

On an occasion to which, um,
reference has and will be made,

Hitler, the leader
of the Nazi conspirators,

who are now
on trial before you,

is reported as having said,
"In starting and making a war,

not the right is what matters,
but victory."

Hitherto...

everybody had been
inclined to feel

that if the thing was done
in the name of the state,

then they who represented
the state or who settled
the policy

would be able to remain
in a position of, um, anonymity

and escape any
individual retribution.

These crimes with which
we deal are unprecedented,

first because of the shocking
number of victims.

They are even more
shocking and unprecedented

because of the large
number of people

who united their efforts
to perpetrate them.

A thousand little
fuhrers dictated.

A thousand imitation
Goerings strutted.

A thousand Streichers
stirred up hate.

A thousand Kaltenbrunners
tortured and killed.

A thousand Speers
administered.

(Ophuls
speaking German)

(speaking German)

(Ophuls
speaking German)

(Spiess speaking German)

(Edgar Faure speaking French)

Ophuls:
Did you ever think, uh,
"Perhaps, in that situation,

I might have acted
in that particular way,
that particular instance,"

and then have gone on
with the prosecution?

I often wondered
how I and my friends,

and, uh, others
whom I knew back home,

would have reacted
under these pressures.
That's certainly true.

Uh, I suppose that,
having wondered,

I didn't pursue
the question further.

There's no way
I could answer it.

I mean, I wasn't tested
in that way and I don't know.

Uh, and, of course, if everybody
gave up the attempt
to impose principles on conduct

because they themselves
might yield under pressure,

uh, that would not
be a very sensible solution
to the situation, practically.

No, all I could do is wonder.
Wonder, doubt...

We cannot make
history over again here,

but we can see
that it is written true.

Taylor:
That must, uh, plague
anybody who has been,

uh, seriously involved
in situations that test people
very deeply.

♪ ♪

Male Narrator:
Nuremberg,
the city of Durer

and of National
Socialist rallies.

♪ ♪

The Luitpold Arena.

The remains
of Julius Streicher's house.

Gestapo headquarters.

(Faure speaking French)

I drove by car through
the Ruhr to Nuremberg,

and, um, it was shocking to see
the damage that had been done
to so many towns.

Although, of course,
in London and Liverpool,

where I'd had to work
during the war, there was
also very great, um, damage.

(speaking French)

(speaking French)

(Ophuls speaking French)

(speaking German)

(speaking French)

(Faure speaking French)

(Kranzbuehler speaking German)

Geoffrey Lawrence:
"Is glad."

"Is glad." No?

No? "The Tribunal is glad...

that, uh,
defendant's counsel..."

(mutters) Oh, he can't hear.

Uh, "The Tribunal
is glad that," uh--

(Kranzbuehler speaking German)

Lawrence:
Uh... Give him the microphone.

Give him the microphone,
will you?

Can you hear me now?

Can you hear me now?
Ja wohl.

Lawrence:
Tribunal will consider
the best method

of providing
defendant's counsel

with as many
translations as possible.

(Kranzbuehler speaking German)

(Faure speaking French)

Lawrence:
And all those details
are really unnecessary.

Smith Brookhart:
Very well, sir.

Your Honor, please...

this witness does furnish
a complete story

from the head office
to the Final Solution. Uh...

Lawrence:
Well, what is he going to prove
about these 50,000 Jews?

Brookhart:
Their ultimate disposition,
sir, as far as he knows.

Lawrence:
What is he going to prove?

Brookhart:
Their ultimate disposition at
Auschwitz, as far as he knows.

Lawrence:
Well, you can go on to--

to what ultimately
happened to them, then.
Brookhart: Yes, sir.

(speaking French)

(speaking French)

(Kranzbuehler speaks German)

(speaking French)

Jackson:
After you came to power,
you regarded as necessary,

in order to maintain power,
that you suppress
all opposition parties.

(Goering interrupts in German)
That is correct--

Shawcross:
Jackson was quite
unused to cross-examination,

and he used the occasion,
as he had hoped,

in order to establish
a number of principles.

Well, you don't do that
by cross-examining, um,
a hostile witness,

and the result was that
the cross-examination, um,

became extremely
ineffective and woolly.

(speaks French)

Jackson: The difficulty is that
the Tribunal loses control
of these proceedings

if the defendant,
in a case of this kind,

where we all know, uh,
propaganda is one of the
purposes of the defendants,

is permitted to put
his propaganda in,

and then we have
to meet it afterwards.

Lawrence:
Surely-- Surely, it's making
too much of a, a sentence,

which the witness has said,

about whether
the United States
makes its, uh,

mobilization orders
public or not.

Surely, that's not a matter
of any very great importance.

The defendant
ought not to have,

uh, referred
to the United States,

but it is a, a matter
which I think
you might well ignore.

Jackson:
Let me say that
I agree with Your Honor

that, as far as
the United States is concerned,

we're not worried
about anything this witness
can say about us.

(speaks French)

The position was picked up

by a more experienced
cross-examiner the next day,

by my deputy,
David Maxwell Fyfe,

who subjected, um,
Goering to a very damaging
cross-examination,

which had been carefully
prepared overnight

in the light of Jackson's own,
uh, lack of success.

Would you look
at document D-5-6-9?

First at the top
left-hand corner,

which shows that it is
a document

published by the
Oberkommando der Wehrmacht.

(Goering speaking German)

Uh, I'm so-- I'm sorry.

They've given you
the, the wrong one.

Bring back the document.
Let me have it.

It's a document dated
22nd of November, 1941.
(Goering speaks German)

Have you got it?
Goering:
Ja wohl.

He only asked questions
to which he knew the answers

and knew that Goering
would have to give
those answers,

and that is the secret
of all cross-examination.

Never ask a question
unless you know
what the answer is.

Gilbert:
He, uh, wanted me,
pleaded with me,

to come to his cell every day,
so that he could discuss things.

He wanted to know,
"How did I do?"

"Did anybody say if I
put on a good performance?"

I said, "Oh, I suppose
some said you did."

And then he said, "You know,
one thing I couldn't control,"

and he said this
with real annoyance,

"I couldn't control
the shaking of my hand,
uh, while I was on the stage,

but look, it's
perfectly steady now."

(speaking French)

(speaking German)

(gong sounds)

("Ich Bin Die Marie Von Der
Haller-Revue" playing)

(speaking German)

("Ich Bin Die Marie Von Der
Haller-Revue" continuing)

♪ ♪

(motorcycle engine revving)

(Ophuls
speaking German)

(speaking German)

(speaking German)
Ja.

Ja.

(woman speaks German)

(continues in German)

(woman speaking German)

Ja.

(man speaking German)

(woman speaking German)

(" Herr Ober Zwei Mokka"
playing)

(woman speaking German)

Ophuls: Ja, ja.
(woman continuing)

Ja.

Ja.

♪ ♪

(Ophuls
speaking German)

Ja.
(chuckles)

(Ophuls
speaking German)

Ja.

(surveyor
calling out in German)

("Sag Beim Abschied
Leise Servus" playing)

♪ ♪

♪ ♪

We arrived in Berlin
on July the 6th, 1945,

which, uh, except
for billeting officers,

I think was as early
as anybody got there.

One colleague of mine,
also having been
in Berlin before,

couldn't stand just going
to bed at that point,

and we wanted to drive
into the center of the city,

and it was a absolutely
ghostly experience.

(speaking German)

(laughing)

Ja.
Ja, ja, ja.

(woman laughing)

(singing in German)

♪ ♪

Ophuls:
To the German, even today,

the denazification officer
is a hatchet man.

Uh, yes,
I, I can't blame them,

and I would imagine
that there may be some

who recall me in that stance.

At the time that I became
involved in denazification,

I was at the age
of, uh, 27, I guess,

and as a second lieutenant,

the only film, theater
and music control officer
in Berlin.

(calls out in German)
(people singing in German)

♪ ♪

Alter:
The Russians wanted to have
something cultural going on.

From the very beginning,
that is, from before the time
that we got to Berlin,

artists who were appearing
in shows or singing
or anything,

had higher ration cards
than the ordinary citizen.

They even got
transportation to places,

so that they
could appear there.

The Russians at that time
were very concerned
with the suicide rate,

which had been going up.

They were quite willing
to provide some circuses,
where they could,

in hopes that it would,
you know, stem a tide

of where too many people
would simply quit
and kill themselves.

(jazz music playing)

♪ ♪

We came in there,

and I think almost everybody
came into Germany...

(coughs)
Excuse me.

...with the notion that
for a decent German

who had connections
in other countries

to have stayed during
the Hitler years,

alone was a sort of crime,

and I don't think that this
was ever put into any law,

but it was an attitude.
Ophuls:
An assumption.

An assumption that went
through the entire process

of vetting people
and licensing people
and letting them be active.

Prior to leaving Austria,
it was in 1939,

I had been a student
at the state academy in Vienna,
primarily in directing,

and was back in 1945
with the responsibility

to make some judgments
in, in this area,

frequently on people
whom I had known personally.

(applauding)

(soft piano music plays)

(boys singing)

(boys continue singing)

♪ ♪

The artists who, after all,
we are talking about,
for the most part,

when the war started
going from bad to worse,

were expected to work
in defense industry.

Whenever they were not filming,
uh, and I think even on the--

the theater artists,
even on nights where they might
be appearing later on the stage,

were still expected to work
in defense work during the day.

Now, there were four reasons,

uh, or four ways
in which artists, uh,
reacted to this order,

and I would ask you how, uh,
given these four motivations,

you would then
discover justice.

There were Nazis among them,
who got themselves excused,

because they were influential
and knew other Nazis

and didn't like to get up
early in the morning
and get their hands dirty.

There were anti-Nazis
among them,

who worked desperately
to be excused from defense work,

because they wanted
in no way to support
the German war effort.

There were violent Nazis,
who insisted on
showing up on the job

as a demonstration of their
loyalty and their sacrifice,

and, finally, there were
anti-Nazis, who insisted
on showing up and working

just so that nobody could say
they were taking favors
from the government.

So, the question then becomes,
what do you know about that
immediately afterwards,

and how do you deal with it?

(man narrating in German)

(chorus singing in German)

(singing in German)

♪ ♪

(singing in German)

(singing in German)

♪ ♪

(audience applauding)

Artists are not habitually
political fanatics.

So that you could,
for example, have an act--

an actor who might see
a chance to play King Lear.

This easily, in his terms,
could be more important

than the German army
taking Paris the same week.

♪ ♪

(man narrating in German)

♪ ♪

Alter:
We have today,
in West Germany, a country,

which is one of the more
humane in the world.

(narrator speaking German)

Alter:
In that sense, we can be quite
well-satisfied with ourselves.

Anybody in a uniform
could be counted on,

uh, on, on being...
authoritarian with the public.

I think you'll find
that less today

than in any country
I can think of, except Britain.

♪ ♪

(man narrating in German)

♪ ♪

Halt.
(music stops)

(both speaking in German)

Krause.
Krause.

(speaking indistinctly
in German)

Danke schoen.
Bitte schoen.

(narrator continues in German)

♪ ♪
(children laughing)

(Johanna Kortner
speaking German)

(Ophuls
speaking German)

(speaks German)

(man narrating in German)

(Johanna speaking in German)

(Ophuls
speaking in German)

(Ophuls speaking)
Ja, ja, ja.

(Ophuls speaks)

(ship horn toots)

(Ophuls speaks)

(Ophuls speaks)

(speaking German)
Nein.

(Ophuls speaks)

(Johanna speaking)

(cheering)

("Kom, Spiel Mit Mir
Blinde Kuh" playing)

♪ ♪

(Johanna speaking in German)

(Johanna laughs)

(speaking German)

(audience cheering)

(man narrating in German)

(audience applauding)

(applauding loudly)

(speaking German)

(man speaking in German)

Man: Heil! Heil!
(crowd)
Heil! Heil!

(stage manager
speaking in German)

(laughter)

(speaking in German)

(speaking German)

(speaking German)

(Ophuls speaking German)

Ophuls:
Ja.

(speaking German)

(laughs, speaks German)

(speaking German)

(Ophuls
speaking German)

Ja.

(actor speaking German)

(speaking German)

Ophuls: Frank.
Frank.

(Ophuls speaking)

(speaking German)

(speaking German)

(Ophuls
speaking German)

(man narrating in German)

(speaking German)

(narrator speaking German)

(muffled)
Oderbruch.

(speaking German)

(speaking German)

(Roland Freisler
speaking German)

Freisler (shouts): Mord?

(Freisler shouting in German)

(Lueben speaking in German)

(Ophuls
speaking German)

(speaking German)

(Lueben continues in German)

(Ophuls speaks)

(Lueben speaks)

(Ophuls speaks)

(speaking French)

(Ophuls speaks)

Ophuls:
Ja.

(Ophuls speaks)

(Ophuls, Lueben chuckling)

(Lueben speaking)

Ophuls:
Ja.

(Lueben speaking)

(Claus speaks German)

(Ophuls speaks)

(Claus speaking)

(Ophuls speaks)

Man:
Now, gentlemen, if you'll
raise your right hands

and take the oath with me.

♪ ♪

I swear by Almighty God...

(men repeating oath in German)

Man:
...that I will
at all times...

(men repeating oath in German)

...establish equal justice
under the law for all persons.

(repeating in German)

...so help me God.

(repeating in German)

♪ ♪

Ophuls:
Have you ever felt that
prosecuting people for crime

is somehow persecuting them?

No, I can't say that I have.

I have felt that prosecuting
anybody for crime, in a sense,
is self-righteous.

And setting oneself
up as competent

to invoke a process
of punishment against them...

there is something
distasteful about it.

I suppose
I'd feel the same way
if I were a judge.

The judge must think
of his judging as being
in the name of principles,

and not that
he is peculiarly equipped,

but that he is the instrument
through which the voice
of principle speaks.

The same thing applies
to the prosecutor
as to the judge.

Of course,
if other feelings
come into it,

if one does, uh, have
a feeling of vengeance...

and many people have,
I think wrongfully, uh,

accused the Nuremberg
prosecutors of being
motivated by vengeance...

uh, then, of course,
he does become a persecutor.

(speaking German)

The whole fabric of guilt
and responsibility is a very
intricate and interwoven one,

and I'm not talking now
just about legal guilt,

which you can be convicted
of a crime on, but, uh,

the degree of your
association, knowledge,

the way that you yourself
may feel responsible.

(speaking German)

♪ ♪

(man narrating in German)

(Warlimont speaking in German)

(narrator speaking in German)

(Warlimont speaking in German)

(Ophuls speaking German)

Ellsberg: B. H. Liddell Hart
had interviewed German generals
after the war.

When he asked them why
they had not resisted Hitler
in the earlier days,

he was very struck
by the importance
in their minds,

that they had teenage sons

who had to be supported
through college.

They were men without
independent means,

who could not afford to lose
their jobs lest they, uh,

lose this ticket to the elite,
to status, for their children.

(man speaking German)

(speaking German)

Keitel was the stereotype
of a German general.

He was a big, handsome man
who looked well in uniform,

uh, very arrogant,
direct bearing, and all that.

He was so rigidly observant
of the military code

that he recognized
my rank as captain

as superior to his because
he didn't have any rank,

and he always stood up
at attention to greet me
when I came into the cell.

(speaking German)

And I was, myself, both
surprised and moved
when I heard him say that.

Gilbert:
And I went
to the cells to see

whether there was any danger
of any suicide attempt
or anything like that.

And Keitel said...

just gray with horror,

"I have been sentenced
to death by hanging.

The hanging, at least,
I didn't deserve."

And he showed me that
he was sending an appeal
to the Tribunal

to let him have death
by a firing squad.

And then,
turning to me, he said,

"Captain, I know that it
must be humiliating for you

to be standing in the same cell
as a man who has been condemned
to death by hanging."

Vengeance is not our goal,

nor do we seek merely
a just retribution.

We ask this court to affirm

man's right to live
in peace and dignity,

regardless of his race or creed.

I was required to enter
the concentration camps

as they were being liberated,

for the purpose of capturing
the alleged war criminals.
Ophuls: Yes.

Ferencz:
We had a long list
of war crime suspects.

I had never seen human beings
in that condition,

where you couldn't tell
if the people were dead
or alive.

So I don't think the term
"vengeance" is correct,

but surely, I was not immune
from an emotional response
to what I had seen.

(man narrating)
Local townspeople
visit the Ohrdruf camp,

including prominent
Nazi Party members.

They'll be taken on a forced
tour of the campsite
by Colonel Hayden Sears.

Colonel Sears stands by
as the Nazis are informed

that they must see
all the horrors at the camp.

Ophuls:
What was the rationale
behind that?

Ferencz:
Well, it was really
so horrible,

uh, that it was a form
of punishment to even
be an observer of it,

and, uh... since many
of the Germans professed,

you know, ignorance
of what had happened,

this was a means
of showing them
what had happened,

uh, so they would see it,
and perhaps be shocked by it.

But was this a method
of punishment

as an act of vengeance
or was it more rational?

Uh, you know, uh,
there wasn't very much reason,
uh, in those days.

When you come into a camp, uh,
you don't react very rationally.

You can rationalize it later.

Narrator:
The day before these
Nazis visited the camp,

the Burgermeister of Ohrdruf
was forced to view the horrors.

He and his wife were later
found dead in their home,
apparently suicides.

Alter:
Under the initial tension
of simply having wound up
the war,

I think I probably
was all for doing this.

Subsequently, I am sure,
as happened in other areas,

I would have probably said
that many of the people

who will be forced
to look at this footage

don't really deserve to,

and the people who did bear
responsibility for it, uh,

probably were able
to look at it

without getting the shock
that the rest of us got.

Goering, of course,
as you might expect,

had the most cynical
reaction of all,

that the atrocity films
had disturbed a great
morning's performance,

where there was a lot
of levity and some wisecracks,
and then he said,

"No, then that
damn film came along,
and spoiled everything."

Robert Jackson:
You did prohibit
all court review

of the causes
for taking people

into what you call
"protective custody."
That is right, isn't it?

(speaking German)

Jackson:
Yes. Uh...

When it was state necessity
to kill somebody,

you had to have somebody
to do it, didn't you?

(Goering speaks German)

Shawcross:
Goering was
a dominating figure.

He'd lost a lot of weight.

His, um, uniform
fitted very loosely.

He was off drugs.

He sat at the end of the dock,
and one realized at once

that he was a very
strong personality.

And one also realized, I think,

that although he'd done
terrible and evil things,

he had a sense of humor.

(Faure speaking French)

(Goering speaking German)

(Speer speaking German)

(speaking French)

(Ophuls
speaking French)

Goering was very
proud of having,

uh, attained the highest IQ up
to the time that I tested him,

and he said that,
uh, this was a proof

that they were very brilliant,
uh, instruments of measurement.

Then later, when he heard that
Hjalmar Schacht got several
points higher IQ than he,

he said, "Oh, these American
tests are a bunch of baloney.

That doesn't mean anything.
Nobody has to tell me
how smart I am."

(speaking German)

He threatened Speer
with murder by

a kangaroo court for daring
to depart from the party line.

(speaking German)

Lawrence:
You may sit down.

There's no translation
coming through...

Gilbert:
Speer was going to testify

to the actual guilt
of the Nazi regime,

and Goering's reaction was,
"Damn that fool!

He's deliberately selling out
to save his lousy neck."

And, uh, the next day
at lunch, he, uh, he said,

"The best defense is to tell
the enemy that it's none
of their goddamn business

and I will confine my defense
to just three simple words,

'Lick my ass.'"

(speaking German)

(man speaking in German)

Ophuls:
Ja, ja.

(museum guard speaking)

♪ ♪

(Ophuls speaks German)
(speaking German)

(Ophuls speaks German)

(Ophuls speaks)

(Ophuls speaks)

(Ophuls speaks)

(speaking German)

(Ophuls speaks)

♪ ♪

Menuhin:
We came to Germany
with a great respect

for, uh, the people
that had, uh,

given birth to so rich
a civilization in the arts
and in music.

I always came in autumn,

and there was something
wonderful about walking
in the woods in Heidelberg,

um, or in, uh, the smell
of the sea in, in Hamburg.

I was quite fond of my tours
in Germany as a boy,

but when, uh, Hitler
came into power in Germany,

I severed all contact
with Germany and didn't return
until after the war.

(speaking German)

Uh, Berlin was quite
a fascinating place to be in
in those days.

Ophuls:
That was in what year?

In 1929.
Ophuls: Mm-hmm.

It was the--
Perhaps the musical capital
of the world at the time.

Ophuls:
How old were you
when you first came to Germany?

Menuhin:
Thirteen.

We always traveled as a group,
my parents and sisters.

I remember coming
to know Bruno Walter,

meeting Einstein,

and of course, the excitement
of my first concert
at the Philharmonic

and the success it had.

(speaking German)

Menuhin:
The old Steinplatz Pension,
where we lived,

where I was amazed
at the relics
of the previous war,

as they were borne
on the silverware,

which was already stamped,
as if in anticipation
of another disaster...

gestohlen from
Pension Steinplatz.

(Vaillant-Couturier
speaking in French)

♪ ♪

(Ophuls speaking French)

(Vaillant-Couturier
speaking)

(speaking German)

(man singing in German)

♪ ♪

(Kehrl speaking in German)

(Ophuls speaking in German)
(Kehrl speaking in German)

(Ophuls speaks)

(Kehrl speaks)

(Ophuls speaks German)
Ja.

(Lueben speaking German)

(Hitler shouting in German)

(indistinct yelling in German)

(Ophuls speaking in German)

(speaking German)

(Ophuls speaks German)

(Paul Koerner speaks German)

Jackson:
Such as fining them
a billion Reichsmarks?

Is that what you mean?
Right after these outrages?

You know that he
did that, don't you?

(Koerner speaks German)

Jackson:
Uh. You know that the fuhrer
is dead, don't you?

(speaking German)

(Speer speaking in German)

Jackson:
On the 12th of November, 1938,
you published a decree

imposing a fine
of a billion marks
for atonement on all Jews.

(Goering speaking German)

The last thing I remember
him telling me was,

"Wait, you will see.

I will still have my picture
in the German history books."

(speaking French)

(speaking German)

(speaking French)

(Goering speaking in German)

Nuremberg was an illustration
on an international level

of whether there is such a thing
as international morality,

and of course, Goering had
plenty of nose-thumbing to do
at me over that.

He said, "Oh, of course,
the people don't want war,

but what the hell have they
got to say about it?"

I said, "Now, wait a minute.
In a democracy, uh, the--

only the people through
their representatives
can declare war.

There's no dictator who can,
uh, uh, just declare,
for his own, uh, ambition

that the, uh, the nation
will be plunged into war."

Of course, at that time,
I didn't know about Vietnam.

But anyway, uh, I did ask
that question, and I, uh,
got the following answer.

"Well, it makes no difference
whether it's a democracy
or a dictatorship or anything.

"All you have to do
is tell the people
they're being attacked,

"and you throw the pacifists
into jail for threatening
the security of the nation,

and then, they'll
all clamor for war.
It's as easy as that."

Now to give the devil his due,
the cynic was partly right.

(Goering speaking German)

(gavel pounds)

Lawrence:
I informed the court

that defendants
were not entitled
to make a statement.

You must plead guilty
or not guilty.

(speaking German)

Man:
Um, they were trying
the Germans.

Ophuls:
And where was it?
Students: Nuremberg.

And from what I've read
about 'em, a lot of it
was not done... properly.

Ophuls:
Is that what you've
read, too, Phil?

Sure, sure, that's
the general conception, sure.

With, with the victors
really just totally outraged

by everything that
had happened and,

and sort of morally
blinded by it, maybe,
or something like that.

So...
Woman:
What happened?

Um, well, we were talking
about alleged war crimes,
and things like that.

And unfairly, because it was,
uh, a unilateral trial.

It wasn't a trial
of the Americans, who had
also committed war crimes.

I guess I was aware

that this was restricted to the
prosecution of Axis criminals.

That, uh, it didn't therefore
cause us to scrutinize
our own conduct,

the way we would have had to
if it had been a two-way street
instead of a one-way street.

In the Einsatzgruppen trial,

in which, uh, the defendants
were SS men who, uh,
went to the Eastern Front,

and picked up all the Jews
and commissars and, uh,
and slaughtered them...

uh, in that trial,
defense counsel brought up

the bombing of Hiroshima
and said,

"If that is not criminal,
what is worse,
after all, about, uh,

about what we did
in the Soviet Union?"

So at that stage, one,
one had to start thinking
about it, if you hadn't already.

What is to be said, even against
the World War II, and was said

by Jews like Milton Mayer,
who were, who were, uh,
anti-war at that time, was,

"This war, whatever
can be said for it,

will cause us to become
monstrous like the monster
we are fighting."

I very clearly remember
a very, very uneasy reaction

to Truman's tone in announcing
the atom bombs on Japan.

It seemed to me that his,
his exuberance at employing

"the power of the sun,"
as he put it, on human beings
was, um, not right.

(booming)

Robert Jay Lifton:
From that one second in time
comes a lifetime experience,

a lifelong encounter
with death.

With the survivors
I interviewed,

a lifelong sense of being
a tainted people,

a tainted group
of atomic bomb survivors,
something like outcasts.

Ophuls:
Do the victims feel guilty?

The victims do feel guilty.

They always do
with any holocaust.

Ophuls:
Why?

Prob--
There are several reasons,

but I think the most
overwhelming

and the central reason
is the classical question
of the survivor.

"Why did I live, while he,
she, or they died?"

And in Hiroshima, that was
a staggering kind of question.

They also had
a sense of shame,

because if you had been
a victim of the A-bomb,

you had, a lot of times,
diseases that were very
mysterious,

and that, therefore,
you wanted to keep it a secret
that you had been a victim.

Tied in with feeling--

the feelings of shame
that Betty mentioned,

one is ashamed that one
has had to be so brutalized
and humiliated by this event.

Ophuls:
Can you imagine a situation

where the United States
might conceivably be wrong?

Personally, I can't.
(chuckles)

Uh, not from
looking at history,

from the past in
the United States,
forward to today.

♪ ♪
But in the Marine Corps hymn,

I believe it's
the third stanza,

the words are to the effect
that the streets of heaven

are guarded
by the United States Marines,

and it goes on, if the Army
and the Navy ever get
to heaven's shores,

they'll find the streets
are guarded
by the United States Marines.

♪ ♪

Ophuls:
Your husband was killed
in Vietnam?

It was in May of 1968.

He had gone over in
August the year before.

My husband felt that,
I suppose,
it was entirely possible

that he would lose his life
in the service of his country,

and he really believed
that he would continue
in the Marine Corps

when he was in heaven. Uh...

Ophuls:
Well, does this sort
of assume also,

that God is on the side
of the Marines?

I certainly hope he is.
(chuckles)

Uh, Louise and I have maintained
that we could never
feel any resentment

against whoever it was
that set the mine that
killed our son.

(stammers)

The Americans deserve just what
they got in that area.

The-the...

The commander of that
division is a criminal,
in my book.

He had been responsible
for a lot of what went on
in the My Lai area.

I think our government
can be proud

that it has consistently looked
into anything of this sort.

I think that's the way
it's got to be.

I don't think that we're
raising, here in America,

young men who are cruel
and inhumane.
Just the opposite.

I don't think it's simple
to deal with Calley,

and I think it's interesting
that we haven't been able
to deal with him.

We're looking for some scapegoat
when we do get caught with our,

um, crimes, exposed--
Ophuls:
Exposed.

Photographs, evidence.
Louise:
Yeah.

And we go right down
and look for the little guy,
Louise: Yeah.

who is the least responsible.

Yes, who can try
General Koster?

You know? They-- If--

If we were in another position,
as with the Germans, of course,

we could try
the German generals,

but who is to try Koster?

Ophuls:
Would you want to?

(sighs)
Robert:
No, no, I wouldn't.

I don't know.
I don't, I don't know.

Ophuls:
Do you think that trials
in such cases solve anything?

(deep sigh)
Oh, boy.

At the time of World War II,
after the war was over,

the Nuremberg Trials, uh,

were really actually
the victor trying, uh,
the officers,

and the political side
of the losers.
Ophuls: Yes, yes.

And, uh, if you were to bring
that to the Vietnam War,

it would have to be that
the United States had lost
the war in Vietnam,

and we have not lost
the war in Vietnam.

And, uh, had we lost
the Vietnam War,
completely outright,

then you would have to have
the North Vietnamese
trying our political leaders,

and that just seems
totally out of the question.

Robert:
Well, I was so infuriated
by Hitler,

that I tried to volunteer
into various branches
of the service

while I was still in college,
back in '39,

but their physical standards
were terribly high
in those days,

and I did wear glasses, so
I had to wait to be drafted.

Louise:
As a matter of fact,
I was just thinking

it was a remarkable
time to be alive,

because, first of all,
we were newly married.

We deeply believed in
what we were doing.

The people that we
were associated
with on Army posts

were the cream
of American life.

Marvelous and able
and brilliant young men.

All-- We were--
A, we had enough money.

B, we really believed we
were doing what we
should be doing,

and, uh, I think that we
really cared a great deal.

Ophuls:
You wanted to fight?

Oh, gung ho.

I think I can imagine
circumstances in which even I,
at these advanced years,

would, would, would,
would come out again.

Uh, it seems to me that, uh,
we haven't accomplished anything
by that war to end all wars.

And even though,
at the time of being
involved in it,

there wasn't any question
of believing that
we had no alternative...

uh, now, I have very serious
questions as to what
all that loss of life,

and all that destruction
really accomplished
in the world.

Ophuls: What was
the alternative, Mrs. Ransom?
Well, I don't know.

Having Hitler take over?
No, no.

We were unquestioning,

and, uh, the, the people
that did question were few
and far between.

By the time that
the atom bomb came into play,

I was sitting in northern Assam,
up above Burma,

waiting again
to jump into North China,

and, uh, I saw a telegram
on the bulletin board,

and, uh, it reported that
the United States had dropped,
uh, an atom bomb on Hiroshima,

and who knew what that was.

Nobody had any concept
that this was a war-ender.

And if it was a good,
big bomb, bully,

we were all for it,

because we probably
then wouldn't have to jump
into the north of China.

From the day that we got back
and started to think about it,

I think everybody's
had second thoughts,

but at the moment,
I can't pretend to be
in that prestigious group

who, who saw immediately, well,

what the dire consequences were
of the start of the nuclear age.

Taylor:
I knew a great deal more about
Dresden at the time it happened

than about Nagasaki
and Hiroshima, uh,
because, uh,

this was thought about
and talked about

in Air Force circles in
advance of the doing, of course.

And, uh, I was closely
acquainted with a number
of British officers

who thought that
there was no reason
for the bombing of Dresden,

and advised strongly against it.

We had a direct line to all
commanders in the field,

and, uh, I rang up the American
commanding general,
General Spaatz,

and I said,
"I hear you are going
to bomb Dresden. Why?"

And he said, "Because these
panzer divisions are going
through Dresden."

And I said, "Well, our source
shows quite differently.

They're going down
west of Prague."

And he said,
"Well, I accept that.

If you can show me
that they are going
nowhere near Dresden,

I will not bomb Dresden
if the British agree
not to bomb Dresden."

Then I rang up,
tried to speak
to Air Marshal Harris,

and got his number two,
Air Marshal Saundby.

I spoke to him and said, uh,
"There's nothing there in
Dresden to bomb."

And he said,
"Well, um, that does not
make any difference.

We are going to bomb Dresden."

They had no accommodations
for burial,

and we would stack these
people like cord wood,

cover them with lime,
and then German squads
would come around and burn them,

and then, uh, they would say,
"Do you see what you've done,
uh, to this beautiful city?"

Dresden was one
of the most beautiful cities
I ever saw in my life.

Really beautiful.

When we were captured,
myself and Vonnegut,

we were very happy
to have been sent to Dresden,

because we were told
by everyone,
including the English,

who were at the Stalag
Four-B at the time,

that it was, uh,
an unwritten rule

that, uh, Paris wouldn't
be touched and neither
would Dresden.

Ophuls:
That's right.
That's right.

Because they were monuments
of civilization.

That's correct.

And what a monument
of civilization it became.

Ophuls:
But what about Dresden?

I don't think it's ever been
a maxim of, um, law
in any civilized society,

that you mustn't punish A,

because B has also committed
crimes, and you can't get at B.

Ophuls:
What about when B is, uh,
is sitting in judgment?

Well, that is, perhaps,
unfortunate,

but B's crimes were
not then an issue.

No, as a matter of fact,
I'm, in a way, rather in favor

of civilians
being involved in war.

I think the more you
involve civilians in war,

the less likely
you are to have wars.

Dresden, Hamburg...

these were no doubt,
um, terrible incidents,

but they were the inevitable
consequence of, um,

Rotterdam, and London,
and Coventry, and Birmingham,
and Liverpool, and...

In this part of the world,

where I lived at that time,

not a day passed without,
um, German aircraft
flying over here,

and in this very garden,
um, one of our barns,

and a large area
with farm buildings,
was completely destroyed.

(playful chatter,
laughing, screaming)

(carnival music playing)

O'Hare:
Before the bombing
had taken place,

I worked in a maltzfabrik,
and they made an extract

which supposedly was full
of vitamins or something

for sick people
and pregnant women.

There was a woman that worked
in this maltzfabrik by the name
of Mertz, Frau Mertz.

She used to slip
me a sandwich,

not a very good sandwich,
but a sandwich, nonetheless,
and it was very good.

It tasted good to me,
uh, about every other day,

and she was always
" sags nichts ," you know,
when they--

when she would slip it to me.
Ophuls:
What would she say?

"Sags nichts."
Ah!

Yeah, "Don't say
anything," you know,

and it was very secretive,
the way she would slip this,

and I'm sure it was
at great expense to herself

because, as I say,
they didn't have
much food, either.

After the bombing of Dresden,

I saw her about three
weeks afterwards.

Uh, she called me schwein.

I said to her,
"How are you, Frau Mertz?"

She said, " Schwein ,"
and just walked away.

And by the way, her mother
was killed in this raid.

Uh, she didn't know--

She wasn't in London
when it was being bombed.

Shawcross:
Those who wage
aggressive war

must contemplate
the possibility

that they may be beaten,

and that they will be beaten
by the very methods

that they have chosen
to use themselves.

Ophuls:
When you're using
"they" and "those..."

I am addressing a former
prosecutor of Nuremberg...

Shawcross:
For Great Britain
and Northern Ireland.

Ophuls:
And didn't Nuremberg proceed
on the assumption

of individual rather
than collective responsibility?

Shawcross:
The individuals who
are the leaders of the state

have a personal
and individual responsibility.

The great mass of the citizens
must, I'm afraid,

accept a collective
responsibility for that

which governments do
in the name of the state
to which they belong.

♪ ♪

Narrator:
RAF heavy bombers assist

Marshal Konev's drive
into the Reich.

The target is Dresden.

It was being used
to pump German troops

into counterattacks
against the Russian army,

not many miles to the east.

This strike
put a stop to that.

Static electrical discharge
caused by intense cold

mars these magnificent
bombing shots.

(explosions)

Narrator:
The day after the RAF
strike at Dresden,

B-17 bombers of the Eighth
United States Air Force

gave the city
a repeat performance.

♪ ♪

Narrator:
After these attacks,

the German Overseas
News agency said,

"This city, hitherto almost
untouched, is a heap of ruins.

It has been
smashed to atoms."

Ophuls:
Suppose the London Charter
had not specifically excluded

Allied war crimes from the
deliberations in Nuremberg,

and suppose that,
as a consequence of this,

Air Marshal Harris had
been in the defendant's dock.

Would you have accepted
to come to Nuremberg

and testify
about what you knew?

Oh, yes, certainly.
But I must qualify this.

I would have gone to Nuremberg,
and I would have had to listen
to what the defense said,

because there might have been
reasons of a military nature

about which I knew nothing.

But, as far as I knew,
it was a crime.

Ophuls:
And you have no-- And you
haven't found anything since,

in the 28 years since,
which have made you
revise that assessment?

No.

It would have seemed
very cynical

to punish the Germans
for bombing Rotterdam
and Belgrade

when we were all
walking around loose,

having bombed
Hiroshima and Dresden.

Jackson:
Even the most warlike
of peoples have recognized,

in the name of humanity,

some limitations
on the savagery of warfare.

Ophuls:
That not even at the time,

the restrictions
of the London Charter

contradict this high idealism
that Jackson expressed.

I mean, the fact that
Allied war crimes
were specifically excluded,

could not be referred
to by defense counsel.
Mm-hmm.

Sure, (clears throat)
these were, uh--

These were very,
uh, uh, unfortunate, uh,
lapses in the Charter.

Ophuls:
What about sharing the
prosecution with the people,

as history seems
to have established,

who were responsible
for the Katyn massacre?

It would have seemed
to me self-righteous to, uh,

refuse to participate
in the prosecution
with the Russians

simply because I knew
or suspected or thought

that other Russians
might, at other times,

have been involved
in the Katyn massacre.

This would not have seemed
to me to make sense.

With the knowledge
we have, um,

there's very little doubt
that these murders

were in fact committed
by the Russians.

(clears throat)
Uh, Justice Jackson
strongly urged the Russians

to leave it out of the in--
leave the Katyn accusation
out of the indictment,

because he well knew that
this was, uh, a, a very
dubious matter.

Jackson:
...you bring the subject
matter up at that point,

Taylor:
The Russians insisted
on keeping it in.

(indistinct chatter)

Taylor:
The Russians
then did introduce evidence

to establish that
the Germans did it.

The German defense counsel
introduced evidence,

and were allowed to introduce
evidence to show that
the Russians did it.

If that was the true view,

the Russians ought
to have been in the dock
as well as the Germans.

(Vaillant-Couturier
speaking French)

There, um, is no doubt now

that they were guilty
of these crimes.

Ophuls:
Of course, there's no
doubt now that they were guilty

of a great many other
crimes at that time, too.

No, you see, at that time,

I don't think we appreciated,
um, sufficiently that
that was the case.

(speaking German)

(Alexander speaks German)

(speaking German)

(Ophuls speaks German)

(speaking in German)

Ophuls:
And has your discovery
about the country you love

changed you as an individual?

It certainly has helped
to do that.

And since I read
Bury My Heart
at Wounded Knee,

I guess it was borne
in upon me

that these things
had happened before.

The feeling that I'd had
for a long time, that, uh,

these things didn't go on in
the American armed forces, uh...

Alas, it isn't so.
They sometimes do.

(speaking German)

(speaking German)

(speaking German)

Ophuls:
Ja.

(Ophuls speaks German)

(Speer speaks German)

Ophuls:
Ah, ja.

(Ophuls speaks German)

(Speer speaks German)

(Ophuls speaks German)
(Speer speaks German)

(Speer speaks German)

(speaking German)

(Ophuls speaks German)

(Ophuls speaks German)

(Ophuls speaks German)

Ja.

(Ophuls speaks German)

Ja, mm-hmm.

(speaking French)

(speaking German)

(Speer speaks German)

Ophuls:
Ah, ja?

(both speaking German)

(Ophuls speaks German)

(Speer speaks German)

(Ophuls speaks German)

Speer:
Ja.

(both speaking German)

(Speer speaks German)

(Ophuls speaks German)

(Speer speaks German)

(both speaking in German)

(Ophuls speaks German)

(Speer speaks German)

(speaking German)

(Ophuls speaks German)

Ja.

(Speer speaks German)

Ophuls:
Ja, ja.

(Ophuls speaks German)

(speaking German)

(Ophuls speaks German)

(Speer speaks German)

Ophuls:
Ja.

(Ophuls speaking in German)

(Speer speaks German)

Ophuls:
Ja.

Ophuls:
Ja.

(speaking German)

(speaking German)

(Ophuls speaks German)

Taylor:
The evidence will show
that the defendants knew well

the manner in which
this labor was being recruited.

For these defendants were eager,

aggressive, and successful

in their efforts to obtain
workers from all sources

involved in this
criminal program.

(speaking French)

(speaking German)

(Kranzbuehler
speaking in German)

(Serge speaking in French)

(speaking German)

Taylor:
You've mentioned
that Dr.Kranzbuehler

was doing pretty
well out of all this.

Oh, well, I can't say that
it gives me great pleasure

to learn that, uh,
that someone who's, uh, uh,

been involved, like Flick
or someone like that, is, uh,

still, uh, very wealthy
and living in great luxury,

but, uh, I don't think
that means that
the lesson is totally lost.

I agree it does dull
the edges a good deal.

(speaking German)

(Ophuls speaks German)

(Ophuls speaks)

(Kehrl speaks)

(Ophuls speaks)

(Kempner speaking German)

(Ophuls speaks)

Ja.

Ja.

(Ophuls speaks)

Ja.

(Ophuls speaks)

(Ophuls speaks German)

(Ophuls speaks)

(Speer speaking in German)

(Ophuls speaks German)

(Ophuls speaks German)
(Speer speaks German)

(Speer speaks German)

(Ophuls speaks)
Speer:
Ja.

(Ophuls speaks)

(Speer speaks)

Ophuls:
Ja.

(Ophuls speaks)

(chuckling)

(Speer speaking German)

(Ophuls speaks)

Lawrence:
Defendant Friedrich Flick...

Ferencz:
Mr. Flick had been one
of the largest contributors

to the personal fund
of Heinrich Himmler.

Himmler had escorted Flick
through the concentration camps.

Flick had seen the
conditions under which

the inmates were required
to slave in various
Flick factories.

Those who were
the slave laborers,

the concentration camp
inmates who worked for Flick,

uh, most of them
are very poor people today,

and he who played
a leading part in, uh,

responsibility for their
misery, uh, died,

not only the richest man,
but completely unrepentant.

Lawrence:
Defendant Friedrich Flick.

How do you plead
to this indictment?

Guilty or not guilty?

(speaking German)

Uh, he didn't get a very
severe sentence.

He got a five-year sentence,
and I can't remember exactly
how much of it he had served

when Mr. McCloy let him out.

As is often the case, uh,
those who persecute others

consider themselves the victim,

and he considered
himself a victim.

(Kehrl speaking in German)

Ophuls:
Um...

(Ophuls speaks German)

Perhaps, perhaps he knew
more than he has yet told us.

He said,
"I could have known."
Ophuls: Yes.

And he is uncompromising
in saying

that that creates
as much responsibility
Ophuls: "I should have known."

as if I had known.

Now, that is a, a thought
that can only be frightening
to a McNamara.

Uh, to, uh, to anyone
who continues to excuse himself

on the basis of what
he did not, in fact, know,

because, really, not to know
some of these things required
a good deal of effort.

It required
turning aside questions.

Uh, it required, um, what
Orwell describes very,
very analytically in 1984.

Uh, "doublethink," he calls it.

The ability to stop short
of a logical inference
from premises that you do hold.

The ability not to see
the logical, uh, implications
of something.

To be-- to be stupid.
Controlled stupidity.

Uh, something
that is trained into us, I--

As in Orwell's 1984,
but we-- we didn't wait
that long for it.

Holly Near:
♪ No more genocide ♪

♪ No, no, no, no ♪

♪ Now, that's just a lie ♪

♪ It's one of the many,
and we've had plenty ♪

♪ I don't want more ♪

♪ Understand ♪

♪ No more genocide in our name ♪

It is so discrediting
to an American audience

to raise the possibility that
American behavior in the world

can be like that
of Nazi Germany.

That to say it is practically
to show that you are a fanatic,

extremist,
radical anti-American...

uh, someone who hates America,
and is not to be listened to
or learned from.

Ellsberg:
First things first,
there's a lost child here.

Uh, Roberta... Reiling?
Rebecca Reiling.

I was up till three o'clock
last night here,

reading a bestseller that
I got hold of in Washington.

Instant history.

(crowd applauds)

If you look at the taped
conversations of the president
relating to Watergate,

on every other page, we find
individuals quite consciously
evading knowledge.

Guilty knowledge.

This is, in fact, of course,
political pornography.

It is the pornography of power.

The fantasy life of men who
are stoned out of their minds

on secrets and power,
outlaw power.

One of my points in bringing
out the Pentagon Papers,

one of my desires, was that,
at last, the evidence
would be available

to give life to the concept
of high-level,

official crimes of planning
aggressive war,

war in violation
of international agreements
or against commitments,

and, uh, to reopen the issue.

Now, not of the Calley-type
crime, the crimes of sergeants
and lieutenants,

but the crimes of generals
and presidents.

The crimes of--
against the peace.

Assuming that it is so,
that this was the reason
he decided to publish them,

uh, that makes sense to me.
That makes sense to me.

I don't know Taylor at all well.

He is a general and sees
himself as such, apparently.

I don't think that, uh,
his defense here is,

is really based on anything
decided at Nuremberg.

It's based on a feeling
that Nuremberg has, uh,

has, uh, portrayed to everyone
the importance of, of, of
following one's conscience

to the best of one's ability
and standing up against
repressive measures.

I'm sure that he sees
himself as an American

having gone, uh, beyond
certain earlier barriers

and being willing to imagine
that American soldiers,
like a Calley,

might be like German soldiers
and subject to the same
kinds of laws,

and perhaps that even,
and this is very far,
that a German--

that an American general
like Westmoreland
could be held accountable,

like a Jodl or someone else.

He has not gotten to the point

where an American civilian
official or president--

that he is willing, I'm sure,
in his own mind, to imagine

could be guilty
in the same way that
German officials were guilty.

There were individuals in high
places in the government

who saw this as an opportunity
for a military conquest,

and who were aware
of the treaty problems
and, nonetheless, went ahead.

Uh, but, uh, if you are asking
me to say that "X" or "Y"

or a "Smith" or a "Jones"
is a war criminal--
Ophuls: Or Westmoreland
or McNamara.

Or anybody you should name.
I won't do it.

Uh, you can do it, but you
wouldn't get an answer.

Right.
That's what trials are for.

That's what trials are for.
It's to examine evidence
and weigh it.

Shawcross:
Telford Taylor...

Uh, I don't agree
with the views that I've heard
expressed by him,

and I don't think, myself,
that there is any parallel

between the American
intervention in Vietnam,

um, at the request
of the then government,

whatever one may think
about the system of democracy
that operated then,

and German aggression
against the rest of Europe.

Ophuls:
How about the methods
of waging war?

Oh, the methods
of waging war?

Well, the methods, of course,
were much the same.
Ophuls: Napalm...

It's absolute nonsense
to suppose

that one can conduct
a major war with, um,

rules that you might enforce
in a game of football.

Wars are fought to be won.

One criticism I might make
of the Americans in Vietnam

is that they never
fought that war to win it.

They didn't really go all out,

and use the whole
of the weapons
at their disposal.

Ophuls:
You mean, like, for instance,
the atomic bomb?

They could have used
the atomic bomb,
they didn't do that,

but I don't think that
we can contemplate another war
on a world scale

in which the atomic
bomb is not used.

But it would
certainly be ironic

if an American official
goes to jail for illegal entry
into a doctor's office

and is beyond accountability
and punishment for illegal entry
into three nations,

and illegal entry
into this air space
of those three nations

by B-52's dropping
four and a half million
tons of bombs.

(whistles, cheers)

You can raise the moral issues,
provided they're abstract.

The problem with the
war crimes issue is

that it relates
abstract assertions
to concrete individuals,

and you can't avoid
the inference

that if you are saying
war crimes have been committed

and individuals who act
on behalf of the government
should be held accountable--

Ophuls: Then who the hell
committed them?
Right.

In Vietnam,
my, my, my reactions
to going in there were

overwhelmingly practical,
rather than moral, I'm afraid.

Ophuls:
Why do you say "I'm afraid"?

Well, I suppose that I would
have a certain enlarged
sense of righteousness

if I could say that I had
a great moral position against,
uh, becoming involved,

and ever-involved in war,
ever-involved in shooting,
ever-involved in killing,

and if I'd made the argument
in those terms--

I must say, if one made
those arg-- the argument
in those terms,

one would have gotten nowhere,

because that would have
indicated that you were not
in tune with the times.

In the Pentagon Papers,
you will never find anyone
saying, "This is immoral."

Or even, "This is illegal."

You were only listened to,

to the extent that you could
develop a valid argument

on grounds of national interest
or even on military grounds.

In weighing pros and cons, to
eliminate such considerations,

uh, uh, may mean that a,
that a totally criminal
and immoral consideration,

uh, gets very far in
the planning process,
precisely because,

there are no sufficiently
practical objections
to be made against it.

Ophuls:
Uh-huh.
It's merely murderous.

I remember wondering,
"Should I resign?

Uh, or "Should I stay?"
The oldest question.

Uh, I didn't resign then.
Uh, I was very glad I didn't.

I didn't want to have to resign.

So, I don't want to-- (sighs)

You know, I do-- I, I don't want
to, uh, take any credit
for myself and blame the others.

I am uneasy about, uh, uh,
passing judgment on people
with whom I was associated,

in your phrase,
"in the same power structure."

Ophuls:
Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
I think you understand why.

Uh, the fact is, of course, that
no one higher than a lieutenant

was tried even for My Lai,

and of course, uh,
My Lai was comparable

to any field-level
incident in World War II.

Uh, they were not able even
to get company commanders
and, uh, battalion commanders.

Ophuls:
Over My Lai, General Koster,
Colonel Henderson.

They were flying over--
They were all up--
they were all up there,

in helicopters,
at various levels.

Right.
But all in radio
communication.

Every family over there,
just about, in those fields,

lost a brother, a son, a sister,

some way-- to Americans,
in some brutal way,

and I can understand
what I would have become
if some army came in here

and did this to my family.

I, too, would
have become a VC.

So we created the VC.

My, uh, father was a coal miner,

and he had
a third-grade education,

but a very intelligent man,
he wa-- you know,
he was very swift.

We-- There wasn't, uh,
the money to buy things,

but I think the people who
have money to buy things today

miss many of the very
finest things we had.

The radio together,
the, uh, walking together,

the hills together,
uh, being a family.

It was a very close family.

I had my first, uh,
shotgun when I was six.

I was good,
but I wasn't the best around.

I have never seen my father
miss with a shot in his life.

Ophuls:
I see.
We took people from the city.

Uh-huh.
We, we used to guide people.

and the rule was that,
uh, we never fired
until they had fired.

If they had missed,
then I could shoot...
(gunshot)

and kill the rabbit,
and they got it.

We gave it to them, the game.

I come from a town
of immigrants, really.

These people were, were,
were very fond of this country,

and to prove that
they were Americans,

the ultimate stamp of approval
was you were in the military,

you were wearing the uniform
of the United States.

I don't ever
remember a, a word--

an adverse word ever spoken
about the military in
my hometown, ever.

When I had started out
with what was wrong in the army,

it was at the very
lowest levels,

and I really could not
bring myself to believe

that the generals were
complicit in it or that corrupt.

I felt that it was being done
at the colonel level,
and at one general,

and when the higher-ups knew,
that they would correct this,

and it may be naive,
but this is what happened.

When I get to Saigon,
I find out now
General Abrams is in on it.

General Bowers
and many other generals,

and then I became--
It came to me,
"This is only in Vietnam.

When I get back
to the United States,
they will correct this."

Then when I get back
to the United States,

I find out it goes up
to Westmoreland,
the corruptness.

Because, I mean, I--
Ophuls:
You mean the cover-up.

The knowledge of what
had been going on?

And the threats, too, you know,
the, the actual threats to me,
"Shut up or else..."

Ophuls:
The very specific
area of your controversy

with the army concerns, uh,
Mm-hmm.

what has become known
as the Valentine's Day Massacre.

Okay, uh, on February the 14th,

I got a call on the radio
from Colonel Franklin,
the Brigade Deputy Commander,

and he told me that
there was a Vietnamese
National Police unit coming in,

and I would turn
prisoners over.

They had an American officer
with them, a lieutenant.

Then the helicopters
started landing,

and their shooting started,
and as I came south
into a clearing--

Let's say I come in
at, at, at six o'clock.

At seven o'clock is standing
the lieutenant.

They've got these people
lined up, and there are four
dead laying there bleeding,

and they're already dead.

They've got the other people
lined up right there,

except that up at one o'clock,
right across,

across the circle from me,
is a Vietnamese,
and he's got this woman--

This is--
It's hard to say the way it is,

because he had her pulling her
hair back with his left hand,

and he had the right hand with
the knife all the way around,

but not, not across her throat,
but all the way around and dug
in over here on her neck,

and there was one child
that was holding
onto her clothing,

and then they had
a second child, was--

Behind him, there was
another Vietnamese,

had this child's face
buried in the sand,

and was tramping on the back
of his head with his foot.

and the guy who had the knife
looked me right in the eye

and cut her throat,
and let her sink to the sand.

She just sinks--
She just dropped, you know.

I went back and I
reported to Franklin.

There was an American officer
in charge, and I wanted
something done about it.

Franklin then told me, "Okay,"
that he would take care of it,

but he didn't want me
talking about it because--

Well, I-I can't remember
the exact words,
but what it was is that

he didn't want me to interfere
with the investigation,
that he would handle it.

Which, which he never did.
Until the day, I--

Very few days before I was out,
now, I had to sit in the office

of the Under Secretary
of the Army,
Kenneth BeLieu,

who I had known
for 20 years,

and have him tell me,
"Yes, it's a cover-up,

"but it's for the good
of the country,

"and don't give ammunition
to the peaceniks.

"Forget about what
happened in Vietnam.

Go on with your own career."
And everything else.

I still couldn't believe it.
Ev-even when--
Even when it was occurring.

I went in, and I had
to resign from the Army,

and, uh, as, as things
never seem to go right
in the Army anymore,

a fellow handed me this pen,
and when I went to write,
the pen broke.

I arrived at the decision that I
was not going back to Vietnam.

I would, uh,
I would not go,

and the only recourse for me
at that point was desertion.

I deserted, uh, I spent
a very brief time in Canada,

crossed the border,
uh, at Detroit

with the help of my family,

and, uh, went underground
here in the United States.

My father was a disabled
World War II veteran.

He was, uh, unemployed mostly,
due to the fact that, uh,
of his disability.

He just couldn't get a job
and would end up working
mostly menial jobs.

I always, uh, liked
the neighborhood
that I grew up in.

It was mostly people
like ourselves,

working poor,
and unemployed poor people.

So our school was fully
integrated, uh, we had...

Ophuls:
By force of circumstance.

Right, by force of,
uh, economics.

f all the thousands who,
who left the United States,

um, probably only a certain
percentage will attempt
to come back,

and I think they should know
that punishment awaits them.

Um, I would be very much
opposed to a general amnesty.

I'm opposed as, as one who
has lost her husband there.

I think I can speak for those
who still have someone missing.

Naturally, they feel
they've given something

and, uh, they're certainly
not going to feel any
too pleasant towards someone

who ran out on his duty,
so to speak.

Here, I'd, I'd gone their route.
It was evident.

I, I, I did believe in that war.
I did have medals.

I was a model soldier
for four and a half years.

The criminals in the Nuremberg
situation were saying, uh,

"We were only following
orders in what we did."

And they were tried and
convicted, and now
these men are saying,

"We refuse to carry
out those orders."

And they're being
tried and convicted.

This whole argument that
Nuremberg made it a war crime

to join in, in the army
in Vietnam is, uh,
is based on nothing.

There's nothing about Nuremberg
that says that.

My court-martial was, I think,

the first law case where
Nuremberg was invoked,

but the peculiar thing about it
was that the defense
didn't invoke it.

Uh, the military invoked it.

Uh, the military
essentially said,

"Look, we don't care
whether what Dr. Levy did
was medically ethical.

"and we don't care whether
he had, uh, freedom of speech.

"The only defense that
we will accept is, in fact,

"if you can show that the order
to train Special Forces men,

"uh, was countermanded by
considerations of Nuremberg."

We brought three witnesses,
um, who, between them,

had had experience in over half
of the Special Forces camps,

uh, in Vietnam and just
unequivocally, I think, showed
that Nuremberg was, in f--

the code of Nuremberg
was, in fact, being violated

with great consistency
by the Special Forces.

Uh, there was no way that
we could win with that panel
of career Army officers,

and, sure enough, we lost.
Uh, we lost on every count,

and, uh, was ultimately
sentenced to, uh, three years,
supposedly, at hard labor

and a, uh, the equivalent
of a dishonorable discharge.

Ophuls:
Did you serve them?
Yeah, I served them.

There is evidence in that case
that he was being called upon

to give, uh, to give instruction
in the use of medicine for
political and military purposes,

which, uh, is quite contrary
to the laws of war, and that
if that were established,

that would be a violation
of the laws of war and he would
be justified in refusing.

I can, uh, certainly well
envision fighting in some wars.

Uh, I just simply could not
envision fighting in this war.

We were one of about two dozen,
uh, major hospitals in Vietnam.

One time a,
a VC was brought in.

He'd lost a great
deal of blood.

So we had blood expanders
going in him, uh, plasma,

and a medic,
this is a medic that did that,

came by and shut
the valve off and, uh--

Which would have assured,
assured the man's death.

I turned it back on,
told him to leave the,
leave the thing alone.

He shut it off again,
and I turned it back on,

and then he just reached for it,
and I hit him,

and ended up beating
the shit out of him.

As, uh, I saw more
and more similar instances

I, uh, I had to stop
and think, you know?
I mean, "What is this?

"What, what is making, uh,
guys that I knew on the block,

"uh, just average guys, mistreat
the Vietnamese so badly?

Hate them s--
with so much passion?"

As a judge, I would
be more lenient

on someone who was repentant.

Someone, um, who thought over
the lives that were possibly
lost in his place.

Now, those who, uh, say they
have no sympathy for my boy

or sympathy for my wife,
I respect their feeling.

Look, every man is entitled
to his own feeling.
I can't force 'em.

Right now, Louis, uh,
Louis Simon is in a stockade
at Fort Dix.

The military-- He did the
very same thing that I did.

He publicly surrendered
to the military.

Came all the way back
from Sweden to do so.

When he deserted,
I had no idea at all.

He did it on his own.
Possibly, he felt there would
be great opposition on my part.

Therefore, I had no opportunity
to argue with him at all.

Ophuls:
Uh, thinking back on it,

would there have been
great opposition on your part,
do you think?

In 1968?
Mm.

There would have been
quite a bit of it. Yes.

My feelings, uh, they waiver.
They're ambivalent.

It's like loving
and hating somebody.

I was proud of him
being in the army.

Uh, I had been in
the Second World War.

I thought it was the proper
thing to do at that time,

but the point is, uh,
should one do what your
country asks you to do,

whether it's right or l-- wrong?
Shouldn't one stop
for a moment and analyze?

"What am I doing?
What has happened?"

I would far more respect
my son if he--

I would feel I've raised
him right if, if he would go

when his country needs him
to go, uh, without question.

His wife is a Swedish citizen.

She's pregnant now.
She had to return,

'cause she was with us
for a while,

but she had to go back
to Stockholm to finish
her course.

She's graduating this June,
and she is worried.

She calls constantly,
and we're waiting.

Ophuls:
How about your wife?

Simon:
She's quite affected by it.

This is our first boy, and,
uh, she was quite devoted
with him, to him.

She was left with him alone
when I went overseas.

He was born, uh,
while I was away,

and I didn't see him until
I came back two years later.

Robert Ransom:
Louise was about six months
pregnant when I went to Europe.

Uh, you left in August, and,
uh, Mike was born in October.
October.

Louise:
I had this terrible feeling,
and I couldn't reach Bob

to tell him that he had a son,

and we really
treasure the fact

that he finally got a cable,
signed by Eisenhower,

announcing that
Robert Crawford Ransom, Junior,
had been born and all was well.

Simon:
This boy was born
while I was away,

and here we may
have the same thing,

that his child may be born
without him being present.

Quite ironic.
Ophuls:
For opposite reasons.

Isn't it something?

Ophuls:
But you did see your son.
I did see my son.

They became very
well-acquainted.

I might say that our second son
was born nine months later.

Robert:
That was a very happy month.

Ophuls:
Very happy month.

I remember somebody
saying to us,

"Well, you can feel
so comforted because
he died for his country."

And we realized...

that his death had done
his country no good,

and, uh, we realized...
it was a s--

It was a developing process,
but I think that we realized

that his country
had wasted him.

Uh, I guess I had been
an influence on him

that he ought to,
if he was going to serve,

to serve in the highest capacity
available to him,
where he could do the most good.

So the draft board held off
long enough for him to enlist,

so that he could go to OCS.

Louise:
Officer Candidate School.

And then, of course,
when he knew that he had
his orders to Vietnam,

we had a lot
of discussion,

and, uh, of course,
at that point,

not to go would have meant
a six-year jail sentence
for him.

You know, he really
liked people,

and he cared about them and,
um, I think he had to wrestle
a whole lot with himself.

Plus, he was on--
you know, 22 years old,

and he didn't want to go
to jail for six years. So--

Robert:
But when he left the house,
after his terminal leave,

to take his plane to Vietnam,

he told us very frankly
that he couldn't tell us
at that point

whether he was gonna
get on that plane or not,

and I, I, I've always
kicked myself ever since

for the fact that I didn't
lean on him harder then

to live up to his conscience,
which I could read, uh,

and not get aboard.

All I did was tell him
that we'd understood

and supported him completely
if he didn't wish to,

and that we'd get him
the best trial lawyer
in the United States

and fight it as hard
as we could,

and, uh, yeah, in that frame
of reference, he left, and uh--

But I-- Bob has always blamed
himself for not saying more,

and I think that he's wrong
to do that, because Mike
was his own man, you know.

He, he could make up
his own mind,
and it was his decision to go.

He was only there two months

and, uh, but
he did write a lot,

and he said everybody
in the countryside hated him.

Robert:
He was assigned to the
Eleventh Light Infantry Brigade

and, and the Eleventh
was the one that committed
the My Lai massacre, and...

Louise:
He wrote clearly,
"I just don't understand.

This smiling farmer by day
is my enemy at night."

From the day he got that
assignment to the day he died,

um, the platoon, so far as we
know, and from what he told us,

never fired a shot
in anger, uh,

and they just kept being
twiddled away by, by mines.

He said, "I'd machine-gun
every man, woman and child
in that village,"

for having laughed at them
after he'd lost a man.

And the thing that-- as, again,
we understand much more,

in this My Lai episode,
which we didn't understand
when we first read his letters,

was that he was experiencing
the outright naked hatred

of the people that he thought
he was fighting for.
You know, he--

And, of course,
the United States government
didn't bother to tell Mike

didn't bother to tell Mike
that My Lai had occurred
the week before and that--

If they had, he might
have expected a little
resentment on their part.

Uh, well, we got a telegram
that he had been very
seriously wounded,

and, uh, so we instantly,
uh, got on the phone.

Bob wanted to follow up
on the report,

and, uh, he did,
uh, hit a mine

and, uh, he died,
uh, eight days later.

Robert: And they said, well,
"Somebody's on the way
to see you, Mr. Ransom."

And we knew perfectly
well what that meant,

and then we went through
that gruesome situation,

where they have a couple
of officers come
and call on you,

and they have a little book
that says what to do
when a soldier dies,

and they--

I won't, uh, go through
all those horrible details.

Keating:
Purple Heart.
The National Defense Medal.

Medals that he received
from the Vietnamese government.

The children are too small
to recall their father,

and I wanted them
especially to be proud
that he served his country.

Especially in a war when
it would have been easy
to do otherwise.

Every s-- American soldier
who was killed in Vietnam

was posthumously awarded
with two Vietnamese medals

that are just
revolting, and the--

You get a little message
from the president, too,

about cooperating with the,
with his forces in stopping
the "Red Menace."

Uh, that wasn't what
the war was all about,
as far as, as I'm concerned.

Nobody can charge
Lyndon Johnson
with anything anymore.

Uh, Robert McNamara,
George Bundy,
the best and the brightest,

are certainly not going
to be paying any penalties.

It's in the light of that,
that the cause of amnesty
becomes even more important.

We must let those people
come back to America.
This is their country.

Who knows which of those men
in Canada has the key

to the preservation
of the ecology?

Who knows which man
has the key to peace?

How many men who
really love this country
more than men

who went and fought
are among them?

So they all come home.

Those men who,
who want revenge,
forgive them,

and they, in turn, must forgive
Nixon, Westmoreland, Calley,

and we must all sit down
and say to ourselves, not,

"I was right
and you were wrong,"
but, "What went wrong?"

There were many, uh, drafted
young men who lost their lives
because someone ran away,

and I, I just don't think
you can let them off scot-free.

Herbert:
Revenge takes more
from the man who gets it

than the man that
it is gotten from.

Both people lose
something in the exchange.

I think we should let them
come home. Yeah. Yeah.

Ophuls:
There is a book, uh,
that you may have read,

called, uh,
Military Justice Is to Justice
as Military Music Is to Music.

Right. Uh, have you read the
book? Do you agree with it?

I looked through a good
deal of it. Yes, uh, well--

The title seems
very amusing.

The title is amusing,
and I'm afraid it, uh,
pinked me in a tender spot,

because, uh, one of,
of my hobbies is, is, doing
a little composing,

and most of it has come
out as military music,
as a matter of fact.

Yeah, I do have, uh,
have one here, if you would
like to hear a bit of it.

Ophuls:
Yes.

(marching band music plays)

Taylor:
Those marches are being
played by a band in Central Park

that I was conducting.

♪ ♪

Ophuls:
Your book, Nuremberg and
Vietnam: An American Tragedy,

has a-- what is it
called in English?
A dedi, dedicace?

Taylor: Dedication?
Ophuls: Dedication, yes.

What is the dedication?

To the flag.

To the flag
and the liberty and justice
for which it stands.

Ophuls:
On that trip to Hanoi, you went
with people who don't, perhaps,

share these opinions
about the American flag.

Taylor:
One of them was
an outright pacifist.

One of them was much
more left than I am.

We saw things
quite differently,
and on coming out,

we didn't wish to give
an impression of disunity,

and, uh, there was a press
conference in Hong Kong

where the media had asked
about the bombing
of the Bach Mai Hospital.

We had all four seen
the hospital a few hours
after the bombing.

We all four knew
that it'd been bombed.

There was no question
about that.

The Pentagon building had denied
that the hospital had been hit,

or said it was only
very slightly hit.

We all four knew perfectly well
it had been totally destroyed.

So we said that.

Reporter 1:
Can you clarify that, sir?

If the particular hospital
is the Bach Mai Hospital,

it's blown to smithereens.
Completely destroyed.

But the next question was, uh,
did, did we think it was done
on purpose?

Reporter #2: Do you think
that this is intentional bombing
of civilian areas?

That's a matter that we can't
go into now. Not me, anyhow.

To that question, we would
have given different answers,

and so I did not answer
that question
until two days later.

I wouldn't know.
I just saw what I saw,
and that's it.

Reporter 1:
I'm sorry, uh,
Mr. Taylor--

I'd like to say, uh, I just
don't think there's any such
thing as an accidental bombing.

I think we're all full
of a great many impressions

that we have not had time
to digest fully and,
and put in place,

and, uh, a lot of these
questions, uh, require
more considered answers

after we've had
time to reflect.

Reporter 2:
Is this a Hitler,
Hitler-like crime,

as the North Vietnamese
have been describing?

That's another question
of the same kind, I'm afraid.

No, I wouldn't want
to answer that now.

My answer, two days later, uh,
was that I did not think that it
had been done on purpose.

Uh, later on, uh, I obtained
what seemed to me perfectly
good substantiation of this.

The hospital, which I did
not know at the time,

was only about a quarter of
a mile from a military airport.

So, it seemed highly probable,
if not certain,

that the bombing of
the hospital was the result
of a miss on the airfield.

This did not mean that
the episode, uh, uh,
seemed to me,

because unintentional,
to be an admirable one.

To bomb that close
to Hanoi, and in the vicinity
of a hospital,

which they knew
they were there--
was there,

was altogether too likely
to result in hitting the
hospital, which it did.

I think I've answered enough
questions for this interview.

I'm not gonna
speak anymore.
I have too.

Herbert:
It was in Madrid.

I had a few days off
at Christmas, so I bought,
uh, five Joan Baez records

and I took a room
at the, uh, officers' BOQ,

and I was playing
them in the BOQ,

and a fellow knocked
on the door in civilian clothes

and he asked me,
"Aren't those Joan Baez
records?"

(singing "Parachutiste"
in French)
(crowd applauds)

And I said, "Yeah."
He said, "Are you a fan?"

I said, "I don't know.
How many records do you
have to have to be a fan?"

He said, "Three."
I said, "I'm a fan.
You know, I have five.

I mean, I meet
the requirements."

And he said, "Well, we don't,
uh, we don't permit those
records to be played in here."

And I said, "That's ridiculous.
I mean, you now, why not?"

And he said,
"She's a communist, you know."

I said, "No, I didn't know,
you know?"

"But she's a good singer,
and I've already paid
for the records.

"I mean, I'm gonna play them."

And he said, "Well, if you play
those records, you're gonna
have to leave here."

(Joan Baez continues
singing in French)

♪ ♪

Herbert:
They were very willing
to give me a slip.

"Non-availability.
We don't have a room
for this guy."

So I went down to live
at the Madrid Hilton.

The Army paid for it
and it was very, very nice.

I liked it (chuckling)
very much, you know,

but, uh, I can thank
Joan Baez for that.

♪ ♪

(continues singing
"Parachutiste" in French)

(speaking French)

(Joan Baez continues singing)

(Favrelière speaking in French)

(Ophuls speaks French)

(speaks French)

(speaks French)

(Joan Baez continues singing)

(Alleg continues in French)

I had read Henri Alleg's
"La Question,"

uh, when it came out
and had, um, in English,

and, uh, I'd been very happy
at that time that I was not

the citizen of a country that
had to read exposés like that.

That I was-- I felt sorry
for the Frenchmen
who had to read that book.

(speaking in French)

(speaking French)

(speaks French)

(speaks French)

(speaks French)

(Favrelière continues in French)

Ophuls:
Oui.
(speaks French)

(Ophuls speaks French)

(both speaking French)

(Ophuls speaks French)

(speaks French)

(Ophuls speaks French)

(speaks French)

(Ophuls speaks French)

(speaks French)

(Ophuls speaks French)

(interrupts in French)

(speaks French)

(speaks French)

(Casalis continues in French)

(speaking German)

(speaks French)

(Speer speaks German)

(Ophuls speaks German)

(speaking German)

(Speer speaks German)

(Ophuls speaks German)

(speaking German)

Taylor:
If the Tribunal had applied
the same standards to Speer

as they applied to Streicher,

he would have
met the same fate.

Actually, the evidence
of connection with
serious war crimes

on a large scale was far
stronger against Speer
than against Streicher.

Speer was an attractive man.
He was intelligent,

and I'm sure that this
played a part in the reaction
of the judges.

He was much the most appealing
of any defendant in the dock
in that trial.

(speaking German)

(chuckles)

(speaks French)

(Vaillant-Couturier
speaks French)

(Vaillant-Couturier
speaking in French)

(Charles Dubost speaks French)

(speaks French)

Lawrence:
One moment...

(Charles Dubost speaks French)

Lawrence:
When you said
only 49 came back,

did you mean that only 49,
uh, arrived at Auschwitz--

(in English):
No, only 49 came
back to France!

Lawrence:
Oh, God. Go on.

Yes?

(speaks French)

(speaks French)

(speaks French)

Lawrence:
Uh, you're going too fast.
Vaillant-Couturier: Sorry.

(Vaillant-Couturier
continues in French)

(speaks French)

Lawrence:
Uh, does any other
of the, uh, German, uh--

of the defendant's counsel
wish to ask any questions
of the witness?

(Vaillant-Couturier
speaking in French)

♪ ♪

(crowd applauds)

Menuhin:
The people who came to concerts
at the end, after the war,

uh, had very little to eat
and very little shelter,
but music ma--

meant more to them
than perhaps it had
ever meant before.

(speaking German)

It was easier for me
than for other Jews.

My family had not
suffered as others had.

If my wife or my children
had been--

had been destroyed,

I probably couldn't
have done it.

Those who came to my concerts,
came as people in need.

There may well have been
a few Nazis among them, too,

but judgment is
a retroactive affair,
and very important it is, too.

Menuhin:
I think that so long as people
are guilty of crimes

and perpetrating them,
judgment is essential.

Today, torture has become as
international as anything else.

I mean, the means, the know-how,

is supplied
by the United States
and Russia,

and is practiced
in Brazil and in Chile,

and, and we must
combat universal evil,

which is no longer confined
to borders or to systems.

When I speak
with the Germans,

I feel that my role
is, is not to judge.

I feel there must be judges.

There must be law.

Law must be enforced,
and law should be universal,

but I am not the judge.

I think it's always embarrassing
if the judge is someone

who himself doesn't
suffer from the action

or is someone who
has just won the battle.

I think judgment should ideally
come from within the person
who has committed the crime.

(soft violin music)

♪ ♪

(violin continues)

(music ends)