November Days (1991) - full transcript

You want a photo? Come close!

You can depend on it:

it's the condemned
who live the longest.

Herr Honecker, how do you
feel this morning?

Great, waiting for such honoured guests.

I feel like a Berliner!

What will you be discussing
with Mr. Gorbachev?

Wouldn't you like to know!

No, only German.

I will just move for a little trip,
then I'll go back home.

No, I don't really speak English.



Freedom! Freedom, just once!

This is my ID card.
Can I come back?

So the man said:
"Be my guest."

Yes. We were scared...

it could have been just a rumour.
Who knows?

Next day they could have...
- They could have closed it again.

We couldn't quite believe it.

You felt insecure?

Exactly.

The VoPo could have come
chasing after you?

I even asked if they'd let us back in.

A bird can fly where wings
will take them. But not us!

So it was wonderful,
just sitting on that wall

once so heavily guarded



just hammering along. Then
this girl asked what my name was.

I told her it was Werner.

I went on hammering and
she began to shout in time:

Wer-ner, Wer-ner!

Then 30, 40, 50 people joined in,
keeping time with my hammering.

Werner, Werner!

It was a beautiful evening.
- And a beautiful night.

Exactly.

About six in the morning we left the wall

and went for a beer. I told
her what I did, where I came from

why I was hammering.

Well, she said I could
move in with her, so I did.

I lived there for three months,
now it's over.

Love's always been my game
Play it how I may

I was made that way
I can't help it

Now I'm living at a friend's house.

And sometimes I go to Potsdam,
to see my wife...

because now you can travel
back and forth.

So the wife is still over there?
- Yes, she is.

On such a night, does
liberation also means sex?

Could be, yes.
- Did you feel it?

In a way...

Love's always been my game
Play it how I may

I was made that way
I can't help it

Mario, do you like to dance?
- I love to.

Do you ever get a chance
to dance in Burg?

If I have time between shifts.

I work most Saturdays and Sundays...

and with late shifts
there's not much opportunity.

But, you know, everything's
so deserted in this place.

A bleak little town,
nothing's going on.

I found things very
different in West-Berlin.

Are you always shy,
or was it just that evening?

Usually I'm not shy.

That night it was because of the newness,
things we had never known.

Was it beautiful?
- Oh, it was, yes.

Why? The lights, the music, the girls?

Don't you have girls there?

Yes, but...
- Real attractive girls...

It's just... I was afraid
of even talking to them,

getting in contact with them...

I lost my nerve, got dizzy.

We'd never seen anything like it.

The kids from the West
just jumped right in.

We didn't know how to do that...

to dance like that, really relaxed,
show what you can do.

It was the total joy of life...

a good reason for drinking champagne.

Best wishes to the BBC!

You told the BBC: "We just
want to go back to our country."

Since then, have you had second thoughts?

Of course we had, of course!

Considering what we know now...

I mean, at that time, we still
thought conditions were acceptable.

We knew there's no ideal state, but...

we have friends all over the world...

Since childhood I've cared for
oppressed people,

especially the North American Indians.

The reason, perhaps, is that as a boy

I read many books on the topic,

romantic adventure stories
about the great Wild West.

When I grew up, I founded
"Indians Today", an association...

concerned with the study of
Indian tradition and culture.

I've worked actively for human rights.

But more in the Third World, not here.

That's where we went wrong!

We even defended the wall,
to visitors, to Indians,

defended our state.

We woke up too late.

That's why we feel guilty.

But we can live with that.

We didn't harm anyone, did we?
- But: it won't happen again!

We'll keep our eyes open.

We'll be much more critical.

It was an unbelievable experience.

This woman came right towards me...

She was crying and
she fell into my arms.

I hugged her and celebrated with her.

Would you be able to recognise her?

Well, she was about my size, dark hair...

But I think her crying
really was an expression of joy.

Which of the two politicians,
in your opinion,

judged the historical moment correctly?

Your Prime Minister, I believe.

Because...

it was no longer a time
for secret negotiations.

Your Prime Minister
even sent me a telegram

congratulating us on taking this step.

The grandparents didn't see
the boy until the wall came down?

Only pictures - we
sent them photographs.

Once, at Bernauer Street in the West,

we could climb up with binoculars.

At Bernauer Street...
- You could climb up a platform.

It was in West-Berlin and from there

you could see the tramway
and people on the other side.

You could even call over,

like when they came in their Trabi...

my husband shouted out:
"Here they come!"

A woman asked me if
they were my children.

My heart stopped,
seeing them over there.

The boy was with them
and Franziska called out:

Grandma, Grandma!

Grandpa!

But they had to keep moving,
because the police had told them...

But nicely.
- Right.

"Kindly move along."

But you weren't really allowed to wave,
that was the only thing.

What do you mean with "kindly"?

Well, he actually left us alone.

We waved and he looked aside discreetly.

Most of them marched up to you at once,

and spoke severely
and then chased you away.

If you didn't go, it finally
ended up in the police station.

If you came back two hours later,
those you wanted to greet have gone.

Herr Golle, were you ordered to
attend the demonstration that evening?

I wasn't ordered. We went willingly.

I'll tell you, honestly,

as a member of the Communist Party

I was interested to see

what would happen there that night.

The Party was on its last legs.
- Yes.

Why...

at such a demonstration...

did you stand up in front of a camera
holding up the Party card once more...

Doesn't that mean a great commitment?

Have you distanced yourself since then?

Frau Golle, did you agree with that

act of solidarity?

We were both there that night.

You have been there as well?
- I must have been standing nearby.

I don't know where the camera was placed.

But...

we didn't hold up our
cards or anything like that.

You held up the Party card.

No, nothing like that.

Well, I recall seeing it...

Who did you support? There was
a lot of clapping and jeering.

Yes, there was clapping and jeering.

In any case it wasn't for Herr Krenz.

Clapping or jeering?

We didn't applaud him!

Some say: "Luckily we were
spared events like in Romania..."

Krenz still has fans?

"...this revolution was peaceful"

Krenz still has fans?

Sure, of one sort or another.

WE AR NO FANS OF EGON KRENZ.

But not the majority, surely?

You know, I didn't count them.

I only know that in my life
and especially during those days

I tried to do what my comrades,

Schabowski and I believed
to be right at that moment.

I came home very depressed
from the demonstration.

What worried me was...

the...

in my opinion, the
helplessness of Egon Krenz

who believed he could still
solve all problems with one speech

but he forgot to mention what problems.

A palpable, painfully tangible

lack of communication between him

and the 100,000 people gathered there

who had come ready to communicate with us

to be in agreement with us.

And we, as well as they,

parted with that uneasy feeling

that in fact we had
not understood each other

especially Krenz and I.

On November 9th,

when I was ordered to the Lustgarten,

Egon Krenz and the party leaders told me:

Manfred, we want a speech from you.

Get a few ideas together!

I was a bit confused.

I didn't know what to speak about.

Dear comrades,

I am a transport foreman
in a milk factory.

My wife and I made a few notes,

but what was I supposed to say?

In the end, I hit the right note.

Herr Ludwig told me that you
helped to put his speech together.

He says his wife and you wrote
the speech he gave that night.

Whose speech?

It was rewritten three or four times.

Finally, only my name was left on it.

Why was it rewritten? What was wrong?

It wasn't how I was supposed to speak,
how working men should speak.

With other people's speeches,
I wasn't in the habit...

Of tinkering with them?

Tinkering, yes,
because I've always assumed

that a speech is
a personal thing,

expressing feelings and thoughts.

I don't deny that I
might have advised him

on how to express...

ADVISED! ADVISED!

But that I actually sat down and...
- You hadn't time for that!

That's right. It was not a time for
working on other people's speeches.

NO TIME! NO TIME!

No matter what speech,

whether it had been prepared or censored,

whether it was revised or proof-read,

we had all developed our
own language over the years.

La langue de bois.

What the French call
"the wooden language"?

No, not the wooden language, exactly,

it was...

It grew out of a political context.

WOODEN TONGUE!

Dear men and women of Berlin,

dear comrades,

dear fellow citizens of our great

German Democratic Republic!

I was for socialism, yes.

The kind they taught us
about in school books.

That's what I believed in.
- And today?

Now I just put my head in my hands
and ask myself why I was so blind?

Still, all in all, there was
some social progress, you know.

Here you can say "It wasn't for nothing,
you haven't lived in vain"

In hindsight, you feel
Krenz took advantage of you?

Yes. Now I feel... empty.

But we really did intend
to reform this country

to renew the country,
the Party, the state.

Above all, so our people
could feel satisfied.

Today, one can speak differently,

because we know we've been deceived.

Even as Party members,

as workers...

He jumped on the bandwagon all right.

What bandwagon is that?

He was highly decorated...

a communist...
- Yes...

and then came the turnaround.

If I'd known then what I know now,

I'd have been ashamed to speak publicly.

Ludwig drives a milk lorry again.
Is he well treated?

He does his work, like us.

Otherwise we don't mix.

What was he like before?
- He was just as friendly.

Incompetent!

No one really trusted anyone.

Are you happy to be a driver again,
instead of a figure in the Party?

You always had the thought:
perhaps that nice guy is from the STASI

playing the handsome one,
listening to what I say

then he turns around and squeals.

You played a role in the Party,
in the factory.

Might you find it harder than
others to find work in the future?

Yes, that could happen.

Because some will say:
he was in the Party, we won't take him.

That happens.

They'd get their revenge
by blaming on you?

Yes, I already had
phone calls, you know.

You got calls?
- Yes.

What has been said?

"Communist pig, get up, go to work..."

He could go to Paris any time

being in the League for Friendship
between Nations, French Section.

So he could go to Paris,

then came back and talked
of Paris. "Ah, Paris!"

Today, I could go to Paris.

Do you?
- No.

What other calls were there,
besides calling you a pig?

Well, demanding a written confession
about my former privileges.

There was 15,000 Marks with a "Hero
of Labour" award given by the state.

Any "Hero of Labour" medals?
- Yes, I have some at home.

What kind of "Labour Hero"
does sell his medals to you?

Anyone who got one, of course!

"Hero of Labour"...

there must have been
2,000 of them handed out.

Originally, the medals were made of
gold and silver.

After 1970, they were
just gold or silver-plated.

But they kept handing them out

to keep people happy.

What remains of your
ideals today? Anything?

No. Nothing!

Thank you for the interview.

Were you whistled at because
you're an intellectual in a state

dedicated to "the
Welfare of the Working Man"?

Not one worker or farmer
was in the first row.

Only Party regulars filled the
front rows at the Lustgarten.

From my position I could see them,

people whose world came crashing down.

For example, a man in his sixties
kept chanting

in a breaking voice,
with tears in his eyes:

"We are the fans of Egon Krenz!"

a slogan of the FDJ Youth Movement.
- We are the fans of Egon Krenz...

Why was he jeered if he
said what you say now?

At that time, we hadn't
come that far in our thinking.

If I'd thought then
what I come to believe now

I could have influenced
events more profoundly.

Only the fastest, fundamental
renewal of the Party structure

might give it a last chance

for some kind of role
in this, our country

or better still

in our homeland.

The Party and its leadership
had lost their bearings

though they tried hard to
stage the rally in the old manner.

But their attempts at
censorship were bound to fail.

We have to keep in touch
with other political movements.

Don't you feel that
perhaps Montag was right

and he should have been applauded
instead of being booed off the stage?

Well...

Surely there is no reason for
you to point that out to me.

Are you still a communist?

Another difficult question.

I believe one must consider
what this term today.

One thing should
never be denied to anyone,

neither child nor politician.

Nor General Secretary?
- The opportunity to learn!

With the events of 18th October,
we tried to change the Party leadership.

By deposing Honecker?

...in order to make changes at the top
which had been forced on us from below.

And to survive, to
continue being the leading party.

Yes. Why not? We didn't consider
ourselves a mob of gangsters.

We always intended to achieve

certain social goals
according to our vision.

How is Herr Honecker?

Not well, I believe. I've had no
contact with him since early December.

I guess he's not very fond of you!

Yes, well that's understandable.

You speak of conspiracy,

and not about revolution.

One thinks of Julius Caesar and Brutus:
"et tu Brute".

I'd accept that analogy.

There are some,

and we've discussed
this with Herr Schabowski,

who believe you are
Brutus to Julius Caesar,

conspirators who enter
the Senate with knives.

No, we didn't come with knives.

I don't feel guilty...

about bringing down Honecker.

So you're not Brutus?

No, but I do think that

Honecker should be judged
in a historical perspective.

It is unpopular at
present to speak of this,

but history must put
every man in his right place,

and a man who did not weaken
under Gestapo interrogation

and who spent ten
years in Fascist prisons,

has the right for that to count

when his character is judged.

We weren't just opportunists

who happened to become

Party members and Party leaders.

We had a definite idea of what...

But it's exactly opportunism
that you've been accused of.

You were Honecker's disciples,
promoted by him...

Everyone is someone's disciple.

But there will always be
personalities who stand out

and there will always be those

who will turn into legitimate leaders.

A time comes when
that legitimacy is lost.

Then the leader no longer fills the part,
self-appointed or not.

In Romania, the man
who won the elections

was a Gorbachev man.

He'd been installed to oust Ceaucescu.

Was that your function?

I must disagree totally:
that's crystal ball gazing.

You deny you were the failed Iliescus

of Gorbachev in Germany?

Deny it again, please.

I can't judge how
Iliescu came to power.

It isn't our subject.

I can only testify to the fact that

the change of leadership

that was carried out in the Party

was not instigated by Gorbachev

nor carried out with his agreement.

I have no regrets
about the October days

except that we in the
Party leadership acted too late.

When Gorbachev was here on the 7th,

he could not have guessed.

It was not made clear to him,

that three men in the Politburo

were willing to heed his advice.

Krenz and I gave slight hints

to two men in the Soviet team,

Krenz to Falin, and I to Gerassimov.

Gorbachev flew off.

A week later

came the Politburo meeting
which brought Honecker down.

Erich Honecker, yes.

In that week, another
trusted person joined us:

the Union Chairman Tisch.

He was going to Moscow,
and Krenz and I told him

to speak to Gorbachev.

As they drove through the city
his car veered off to the Kremlin.

After a brief meeting, Gorbachev said:

"Boys..." well, he didn't say "boys",

"I wish you all the best,

but be careful".

Beautiful.

I think that dangers await only
those who do not react to life.

"Life punishes him who comes too late".

That was interpreted as Gorbachev's
warning to the Party leadership

which was incapable of
freeing itself from its obstinacy.

As a veteran communist, Honecker felt

misunderstood by Gorbachev.

He felt let down in his efforts

to be accepted in West Germany.

The tragedy of his life is

that the ideals of his youth

ideals for which he suffered

in the anti-Fascist struggle

were not adhered to at the end.

I could tell you a little bit
about my relationship with Honecker

for I've known him a long time,

since my youth.

When I was young I was involved
in clandestine work for three years

and he was my superior.

I have many good memories of him

Hermlin told me a
story about the old days.

Honecker and he
were waiting for a bus

with a bunch of young Nazis.

The SA gave this salute,
the Young Communists this salute

then they went off together
to beat up Social Democrats.

In my eyes

he is a good, warm human being...

who in many instances
when I came to him

and pleaded for people...

for their freedom or
the freedom of books,

which happened frequently,

he always agreed.

And once he let me know,

through a third party

he couldn't tell me himself,

as he wasn't yet then
head of state,

that he hoped I knew that my
foreign calls were being tapped.

At the end of December,
or the beginning of January

I petitioned the Attorney-General
of East Germany

to release Honecker from prison.

There's a story I wanted...
or maybe didn't want to tell:

when Honecker was Second Secretary,

under Ulbricht, I went to see him.

He was responsible
for matters of security

and I had a Bulgarian girlfriend

who lived with me for some weeks.

She was then deported from East Germany

...given 24 hours notice to leave.

Honecker read the file to me,
fairly freely.

Then he dropped formalities

and the conversation
became quite different.

Then he said these moving words:
"Well, if you can't live without her..."

Although the process took a long time,

she came back to me in the end.

Paul Dessau told me that after
the meeting Honecker said to him:

"This Müller could have forty women,
why must it be THIS one?"

And that reminds me of a
Stalin anecdote, which isn't a joke.

It was dug up recently.

Gorbachev invited a very old
man with a somewhat younger wife

to a meeting of Party activists

and asked him to tell his story.

He had been one of Stalin's
secretaries, some did survive.

One of his tasks
was to present for signing

the daily list of those
condemned to death.

Stalin's desk was at the end of
about sixty yards of red carpet.

One day the secretary
saw that his wife's name

was fourth on the list

and he was rather concerned about it.

So he crawled the length of
the carpet to Stalin's desk

holding aloft the list of names.

Stalin took it,

saw the problem,
signed the list and said:

"Stand up, comrade. In our country
there's more than one woman for you."

When the man went home, a very young,
very beautiful woman opened the door.

She said: "Comrade, I'm your new wife".

Basically, this is the same
kind of thinking, in all innocence.

Cattle are counted, and a conqueror
considers the conquered as numbers.

Women, too, as you say.

Just quantity, never quality.

Along the corridors of power

famous marriages
become official, don't they?

To an extent, one is damned to
such a marriage. Care to comment?

I don't think it was
taken all that seriously, no.

In public, they appeared as man and wife,

but it wasn't all that serious.

Now their marriage is indeed serious.

They've become chained to each other.

They're together: yes, that's always
the worst when one is condemned to that.

Frau Honecker? We don't know...

I saw on television that
he is in a police hospital.

They said he's too ill to be questioned

because of high blood-pressure
and two serious operations.

Who isn't ill here?

Has he cared about the
sick these last forty years?

He didn't consider anybody.

Once people talked about princes.
They lived even better than princes!

At the people's expense.

While he was here under church protection

he was moved and disappointed

that people were so hostile,

so furious with him.

Frau Honecker once said:

"We can admit that we
did some things wrong,

but we cannot admit that
everything we did was wrong.

We cannot understand this.

Did you like him?

I didn't know Honecker before,

except from television

where he didn't seem to me
to be completely unlikable.

A kind of human relationship developed,

which surprised me, because
when we granted him asylum

I didn't know how we'd get on.

But then, in daily contact,
we were almost on friendly terms.

Pastor, if it's established

that a state acted illegally

how can one believe
that the head of state

carries no responsibility?

One would have to be
very naive to believe that

Honecker carried no responsibility.

He was responsible for
what happened in our country,

including the crimes.

But I think these questions

must be debated in a court of law.

In the evening you went down to the lake?

It's a beautiful walk down to the lake.

He enjoyed coming
with us in the moonlight.

So this is the way life goes

It happens to everyone

What you would really like

Is far out of reach

On Thursday the 22nd of March

the government informed us,

the whole collective
which includes the employees,

that the Honecker family
would be housed here,

without naming the exact date.

Why not? For security reasons?

I can't answer that,

To be precise, on Friday the 23rd

the Honecker family
arrived at approximately 6pm

They weren't alone...
- No, they weren't.

Security men were with them.

Four or five vehicles

which came with...
well, they arrived.

How long did they stay?

One can say, almost to the minute,
they stayed 24 hours.

They slept here one night.

If life granted every wish

If it came without effort

It would be like paradise

But as we get older

We must learn to be modest

Keep silent and don't complain

Where should he go now?

The others certainly
don't want him, either.

He belongs where our old folks are.

He should see them living in filth.

A toilet in an outhouse!

For once he should live
as our old folk live.

How many have to use a latrine...

or fetch water from a
standpipe in the street?

We're really at the
arsehole of the world here.

Yes, there were bodyguards.

Right.

Is that a Stasi hotel?

It was a government residence.
- Not really that.

What's the difference between a
Stasi hotel and a government residence?

That's a good question.

But those in a Stasi
residence lived well,

whereas the people were poor.

Was he taken there because it was
thought he could be protected there?

What are your plans now?

In three years will this
place be in the Michelin Guide ?

Do you hope to be the manager then?

It doesn't depend on me;

this is still government property.

But to talk of our chances,

I believe we have a good chance here

to continue, even under
free market conditions.

Look at their residences!

They should have been
used as old people's homes.

Did one man need such a mansion?

He only visited it twice!

But there are privileged
people in the West, too.

There always will be,
in America, everywhere.

The man in the street has always known
what he is working for.

We were talked into thinking

it was for the people, for our welfare.

"As long as it's not for
the capitalists" they said.

Capitalists or not, what we want is

to get something for our efforts.

We were in prison all these years.

As far as I'm concerned,
he and the old Margot can drop dead.

You lived in the famous Wandlitz,

with the "huge" swimming pools.

where the bigwigs lived -
you lived there?

That's where I lived.

There was a covered swimming pool

but, look, the concept
of luxury is very relative.

Along the lake there's a place

where we went swimming once.

Both kids broke out in a rash!

It is well-known that the
Berlin waters are polluted.

They put up signs.

Bathing was at your own risk.

"Bathing at your own risk" - Ha!

It's got worse!

I notice it most when I go fishing,

The roach have red
spots on their bellies,

I can't eat them!

You can't eat the fish any more,
they're nearly all sick.

Protecting the environment
was never a consideration.

They must have known about it.

They ignored it,

and there was no money for it.

Funds were spent on
quite different things.

What for?

Well, we only have to think of the Stasi.

They swallowed up money.

Everyone in East Germany knew that.

You couldn't say much about it,

or you'd be picked up at once.

I must say, the money spent on Wandlitz

was nothing like enough to
tackle our environmental problems.

It's not that easy!

Herr Krenz, the wealthy on Wall Street,
in Texas, also say that...

The wealthy in America,
in France, in Great Britain or wherever

would laugh if they saw...

...how Wandlitz looks!

We had to be judged on our merits.

We were a socialist elite.

That's how we saw ourselves.

So the people saw themselves
entitled to come to us and say:

"Socialists may not claim such
special rights for themselves"

Is that your opinion, too?
- I believe it is.

Don't you want to take away the house
of the Mercedes Benz boss in Tuscany?

No, why? He probably worked hard for it.

But ours didn't work hard at all.

There's a great difference if I
compare the boss of Mercedes Benz

with those who spied on
me for years and years.

It's a big difference to me.

The people don't like it if we

well, let's say the
washed-up figures of the past

bring public attention
to themselves again.

They make spiteful comments.

One has to be prepared for that.

Making a profit

out of their own fiasco...

Who is making a profit?

The bigwigs who brought about
the present situation.

They count you among the bigwigs?

Some do, and that's what grieves me

because I see myself somewhat
differently in all these events.

It's become your destiny?
- It's become my destiny.

I have a family of five.

I have almost no income.

My savings are not a bigwig's savings.

My wife was sacked immediately
from her job in television.

Now she works at a Soviet news agency,
for a mere 400 marks a month.

You know how much that is.

This building is on the site of
Hitler's Chancellery.

If one looks in this direction

one sees that world-infamous
edifice: the wall.

Are you still in the workers' party?
- No.

Were you expelled?
- Yes.

All members of the Politburo
were expelled, except for one man.

Do people hold it against
you that it came so late?

That you went along with it so long?
What about Peking?

You know, there are labels,

labels stuck on you.

I never justified the events in China.

I called on the press in an interview

to help calm things down

and not to whip up public opinion.

China is a big country
and if chaos rules in China

it has a negative effect on the world.

Events at Tiananmen Square

came as a warning.

We thought then, and I still think

that an intact security system

that has the means, the power

and lacks all scruples,

cannot be swept aside by any
demonstration, no matter how powerful.

We saw a cornered rat.

It has teeth, it's aggressive,

and the more it's cornered,
the more dangerous it is.

The placards show you with
the famous smile and the teeth.

There's a lot of hatred there.

It all ends up in a museum

Even before the turn of events,

I had to live with recriminations.

Especially from the media
in the Federal Republic,

their broadcasts.

I was the election rigger.

I welcomed the massacre
in China, as they say.

I was the sick man with diabetes.

"As they say"?
Wasn't it a massacre?

I meant: THEY say,
I welcomed the massacre in China.

I didn't hail the deaths.

But you were a communist
and they are communists.

It was your kind of country.

And if a Giscard d'Estaing says
one must go with the Chinese

it's not the same

as Egon Krenz saying it
about a brother party, is it?

Is that true?
- It is, but...

Don't oversimplify matters.

Don't say forty years of the GDR

were forty years of filth.

One of the worst
procedures of state security,

as we've known for years

was to force entry into the flats

of "dissidents" during the night,

take away the parents

and place the children
in some sort of home...

often tearing the children apart
and putting them in different homes.

As in the Third Reich?

It's a valid comparison.

Without the protection of law,

devoid of legal foundation
and with no possibility

for the people of this country
to oppose it by legal means.

Was there a time when
this was not a police state?

What was bad for the people...

Was this not a police state at any time?

It was not founded as a police state.

It attempted to be an alternative

to bourgeois society.

The attempt failed.

Also because the Stasi

became a state within a state.

The problem was really

that you could never be sure whether

your family was in genuine jeopardy.

Or whether you used it as an alibi

to hide behind your cowardice.

You mean your family's
safety could become an excuse

for doing nothing?
- In a sense.

The managing directors who
joined the Nazi Party in 1934

also said they did it to
protect the jobs of their employees.

Yes, but resistance in the former GDR

was nowhere near as dangerous
as resistance in the Third Reich.

That makes us all the more responsible
for not resisting enough.

What often happened in the Third Reich
couldn't have happened here:

three days after your arrest,
your ashes were delivered home in an urn.

We had to remove, as quickly as possible,

the humiliation caused by
general restrictions on travel.

The Kafkaesque situation in which
no one could travel at will.

We intended to make a proper travel law.

Therefore, one of the
first practical measures

was to draft a travel law.

But the draft was useless.

It hit a brick wall, so to speak.
It no longer affected the people.

Six months earlier, the people
would have been happy with it.

We had no concept, no strategy.

Could you put this more precisely?

In English, please.

Who's left here from... Günter?

There was a need to act,
and in the process mistakes were made.

Much improvisation?
- Much improvisation.

Was Schabowski's press conference
an improvisation?

You've spoken to him. What did he...?

Well, I'm asking you...

The press conference...

The mystery of the note.

No-one slipped it to me.

Immediately?

I am informed here that such a statement

has been circulated today,

it ought to be in your possession:

private travel abroad can...

The document was there and
Krenz told it to the Central Committee.

The statement you read aloud?
- Well, yes.

Really? Because...
- Wait, I'm coming to that.

Then came the question
concerning when it would be legally valid.

I hadn't read that yet.

It was not in the text which I had read.

So I glanced at it again,

which might have looked
like an improvisation.

I looked, then read
aloud the first sentence:

"with immediate effect..."

When does it come into effect?

As far as I know,
immediately.

Without delay.

That's how the matter was
made public to the whole world.

You'll ask Krenz about it?

I'm rather at odds with him about this.

Press conferences always
tend to be improvised,

because one's never
sure of the questions.

I stood by what was written

assuming it expressed our intentions.

Günter Schabowski started off
by reading to the press

what should have been
published on the 10th

And he...
- He found it among his papers?

But that isn't a problem for me.
It would have been published on the 10th,

it would have been the same.

But the border crossings
ought to have been informed.

So that the VoPos would know
which stamp to use.

But the political...
- The VoPos hadn't a clue.

But word got out, somehow.

From Krenz's critical
remarks the next day I concluded,

that he only meant to permit emigration

and then that rush to the
wall wouldn't have happened.

But that's silly, because people
weren't ready for such a decision.

Whether to leave and not come back?

It was all nonsense:

someone who wants to leave forever,
can go immediately.

But who wants to travel
can't go. That's absurd.

My first stamp... Thank you!

Don't you photocopy anymore?

We never have!

But you always held
passports under the desk,

out of sight.

Yes, every country checks like that.

Could I have a stamp on it?

We can come back like this?

Okay!

I was on the late shift and at about
5.30pm my wife phoned:

"Have you heard?

Schabowski says all the borders are open.

Everyone can travel, even with
their ordinary identity card."

You heard it from your wife,
not the department?

He got the order from his wife?

Yes, that he should let people through.

Something like that.

Not exactly like that -
he hadn't yet been notified.

That's the most original version
I've heard so far!

Then along came the
first who wanted to go over.

Did you let them through?

You'd only heard from your wife.

We told them we were making enquiries.

You pushed them back?
- No, we told them to wait.

We didn't send anyone away,
nothing like that.

Not like before?

Well, before it was "unwarranted
entry into a border zone".

And sometimes shooting?
- Not here!

I've been here seventeen
years: not once.

You haven't fired a shot?
- Not here, not once, I swear.

So this was the benevolent border?

Ah, this is a passport
It makes for good sport

And a teeny-weeny passport
Makes for teeny-weeny sport

When the wall went up
there was a big division,

a turning point in the community.

Before, the Berliner
living in the East

made great use of the West.

For example, one didn't
go to cinemas in the East.

One went over to West Berlin

to the Delphi, the Mamorhaus,

saw the big films, then came back.

I still remember,
the 13th August was a Sunday.

I was at home in the early morning,

just married, our son was born...

No, he was second,
our daughter was already born.

I was getting ready
for morning service here

and I heard on the radio
what had happened.

At first we didn't want to believe it,

it can't be possible.

For example, imagine Bernauer Street.

The houses on the one side
belonged to East Berlin,

but the pavement was
already part of West Berlin.

Family members lived on
opposite sides of the street.

A son living on one side would take coal

to his mother on the other side.

These people were in constant contact

and that contact was suddenly broken.

Nobody knew

what was going to happen in the future.

I repeat: the wall...

the wall was not a crime.

The wall was an action taken by the state

in an extreme emergency.

Don't forget the cold war.

Don't forget the post-war period.

We were pleased about the wall.

We thought, from now on

we'd be free to discuss
our own problems at last.

Then Stephan Hermlin told me

while we'd been happy about the wall,

because at last we
could engage in dialogue...

...at the same time Otto Gottsche,
Ulbricht's secretary was saying:

"we'll crush anyone who's against us
up against the wall"

We were so naive,

we never thought
anyone could think like that.

When you speak of your naivity...

sorry to say that,

aren't you navel-gazing?

What about those for whom the
wall meant imprisonment?

Yes, you're right.

We've seen nothing of the world,
not even a visit to Russia.

We had to get a permit for that,
or to visit the Poles.

We've seen nothing!

Wait. It's becoming too complicated

and I'm very tired,

so I would rather speak in German.

Just because I'm tired.

This...

This viewpoint is altogether false.

In the eyes of innumerable people

who read and who can read.

I've never been regarded
as an official writer,

in all these years.

No one could have guessed that
it would last for thirty years.

On the other hand,

it soon became clear

what a turning point it was.

Along Bernauer Street today you can see

the wooden crosses for people

who jumped from
windows on Bernauer Street.

And some met their death.

It was sometimes suicide?
- Yes.

Although of course it wasn't
stated on the death certificate.

1961, the wall...
you must have been involved,

you must have...

been involved in the decision

to put up that piece of masonry?

Yes, well,

my first reaction was
that it couldn't be done.

Then I had to convince
myself that it would work.

If someone had asked
me two weeks earlier...

I knew nothing about it.

But you must have known about it!

No, I knew nothing the day before.

Honecker took you by surprise, did he?

My service had nothing to do with it.

Of course, I don't
want to conceal the fact

that for 33 years

I was a general in the
Ministry of State Security.

When you say:

"we were only in intelligence, thank God,

and had nothing to do
with repressive measures",

I'm sorry, but it reminds me of
Klaus Barbie's defence in Lyon.

No, you don't need to apologise,
I have to accept these questions.

But...

with Barbie, it has been
shown that he was involved

in actual arrests, torture

which led to people's deaths.

And I can say, with a clear conscience

that I and the people under my command

didn't cause a single death.

How can anyone with
common sense believe that?

If he admits to being a Stasi general

he must have known about the
informers and the prisoners.

Well, I don't think

anyone with any common sense

could do a job like that
year after year.

It would be totally unbearable.

For example on August the 21st, 1968

the invasion of Czechoslovakia,

I was at my holiday house on the Baltic.

The days the troops marched in.

So what? No matter what he says,
he was responsible for everything.

Everyone at the top must stand trial.

Now many of those apparatchiks
claim it was all Honecker's doing.

He couldn't have done it alone.

They're sweeping it under the carpet

Markus Wolf, too?
- Yes.

So you weren't involved with LA BELLE,
the disco bombing?

I had nothing to do with that.

I think it was at the time I retired,

just about then...

Strange coincidences.

Those activities were not in my section.

All information about terrorism,

individuals, events,
was gathered by another section.

Markus Wolf is a secret service man
through and through.

People like this that I met

have no difficulty
in cutting ties with their past.

But a man of Markus Wolf's
stature could never manage that.

I'm often asked if I
have blood on my hands,

or if I signed certain orders.

How can you be so sure?
The so-called "desk criminals"?

Yes! That expression has also been used.

But it was never my business
to hound dissidents

which the Stasi now stands accused of.

No torture? No psychiatry
ward at Waldheim?

Kurt Waldheim is a
name familiar to us Jews,

but the Waldheim...

You didn't know about that asylum?

I knew it as the name of a prison

because older colleagues of mine

had been jailed there in Nazi times.

Many were brought here for
"Slandering the state".

In other words, someone had been
offended by what they said.

What were the abuses here?

Beatings, injections,

I participated in such mistreatments.

I must confess here and now that

I wasn't aware of a psychiatric ward there.

As a Stasi general?
- Yes.

Even today I think that

what my people did was justified.

That does not exclude regretting
possible abuse in individual cases.

What is he after, besides sheer survival?

I think he's trying to maintain

some sort of identity

which he may have lost long ago.

That's often been said to me.

Yes, of course.

I don't know, but...

Yes, why not?

May I offer you the good cop
a cigarette?

I never saw myself as an "interrogator"

That was a minor part of the job.

It'll make you laugh,
but I think of myself as basically naive.

In dealing with individuals

I'm always prepared to accept them

at face value.

Then experience leads you
to watch for contradictions.

A tension sets in.

I can be very friendly.

Power can always appear friendly.

You had the power, didn't you?
You never applied the screws?

Not in the way

state attorneys or
counter-intelligence do.

Of course, with a man I
might have suspected of

being a double agent
and playing a game with us.

I've unmasked quite a few
just using ordinary logic.

Is blackmail ever
used in secret services?

I've been accused of that.

The Romeo affairs in Bonn,

the secretaries.

Some, because of the tragic outcome

after their arrest, are to be pitied.

But thanks to our services

some real bonds were created

resulting in happy marriages.

Our method was to

establish and develop human contacts.

Through love?

Through love!

So you do assume responsibility
for the secretaries? - Of course.

I could tell you
stories about the early days.

Please do.

A young man of interest to us
came over here.

We sent along an attractive woman

and they both had a lot of fun.

They brought us compromising photos.
The ones we wanted to take!

They showed us their great time together.

In Western clichés this is a dacha.

A dacha, yes.

Your wife love cats,
but you love Hemingway.

I love Hemingway

but you're probably alluding to hunting.

I was never a passionate hunter.

It is relaxation for me,
a link to nature.

It's never been difficult for me

to spare an animal, to let it live.

It's rumoured that Markus
Wolf gave information to Moscow,

not only ordinary information
for the KGB, but valuable tips

concerning likely recruits for the KGB.

Will you return from Moscow next week?

Certainly. I've booked my
return flight for next Sunday.

Next Sunday...

You've booked it, despite

reports concerning the
West German state attorney

wanting to bring you to court?

Certainly, for I am quite determined

to live in a future united Germany.

My family is here

most of my roots are here.

I may have some roots in the USSR.

Will you turn yourself in?

These may be your
last days here in the sun.

Or my last months...

I won't drive to Karlsruhe on
the first day and say: here I am.

I'll sit here or in Berlin.

Our parents instilled in us
the feeling of being German.

Listening to you, I think:

for heaven's sake...
Marcel, how lucky you were!

Because in the 20s and 30s our
fathers shared the same views.

In the Weimar Republic, who wasn't
on the left? Who wasn't communist?

And I think: weren't you lucky that

the film director Max Ophüls
and his family

fled to the West

and not to the East.

That he chose Western exile...

There is something in that.

In my opinion one cannot be both:
a Jew and a German

or be French and a Jew.

That can be done on passports.
Not in the heart.

The core of the Jewish
problem is this double loyalty.

Just a moment, this newspaper...

Frankfurter Rundschau...

"Once again Jewish cemeteries
have been desecrated". Once again.

It will add to your movement, if
you distance yourself from it or not.

Such people shake the
German soul to the core, right?

I don't see it like that.

I oppose the desecration
of Jewish cemeteries.

The core of the Jewish question
is very simple, very factual

and has nothing to do with mere emotions.

I admit, we painted
swastikas on synagogues.

We attacked the power centre
of the living and we wanted...

That's just nebbish,
if you'll excuse the Jewish word -

the few that remain in Germany.

Nebbish, how many are they?

Even if not one Jew lived here, we'd
still be living under Jewish influence.

Your head looks like an egg!

That's one of my strongest
Weapons in the battle with women

Can Sigismund help being so handsome?

Can Sigismund help being loved?

People pretend that beauty is a crime

Instead of enjoying this beauty

Before your party was forbidden to
stand in the last local elections...

you had a portrait of the Führer
amongst blonde children?

The picture of the Führer was up there

as a Honorary Citizen of Langen.

Because in the Third Reich Hitler
was made an honorary citizen here

and we also had a swastika.

You wanted to add a word or
two about "the Jewish question"?

In this matter do you also
proclaim your support for the Führer?

Let's not talk about Auschwitz right away

but the Crystal Night, and open
anti-Semitism - do you support that?

I don't admit to racial anti-Semitism.

A man tells me he's a Jew,

I'll treat him like anyone else.

Herr Kühnen, I'm a Jew
and I'm telling you.

I thought so. You are a Jewish type.

You fit into the stereotype of a Jew.

The multilingualism, the diplomacy.

The friendliness?
- The friendliness, too.

A somewhat slimy friendliness?
- I wouldn't go that far.

For me, you're not unpleasant.

They dislike Republicans,
too "moderate"!

They criticise Hitler for
not really "following through"!

I bring the light...

To us it is crystal clear
that the reunification of Germany

is the first small step.

The second step is the
return of Eastern territories.

The third step is the return of Austria.

I believe that...

if a population is
humiliated for forty years

Fascism will arise

because memories are there.

And it is the skinheads,
the young neo-Nazis

who are strong in East Germany.

The State Security Service has
used them against the punks here.

That's very true, yes.

We have more support over there

than we have here in West Germany.

They're just children with no
idea of what actually happened

who need to feel strong,

because they've been
humiliated for so long.

A few hundred?
- Thousands

I make no secret of my firm conviction,

that my movement has only a chance

of mass approval

if dissatisfaction with
present conditions keeps growing.

Then people will look
back to the Third Reich,

when there was no unemployment,
no humiliation of Germany,

no social injustice as
an organised principle.

Then people will remember!

Herr Oppolka, what's "super"?

In the West... freedom is "super"

Freedom to travel,
freedom to speak your mind.

What else is "super"...

What are you afraid of?

At this time?
- Yes.

Not knowing where we're going.

When the market economy
gets here...

our jobs...

Above all, jobs.

Many of the obsolete factories...

will go bankrupt.

We'll feel the results.

What's your job?

I'm a welder.

Sorry?
- A welder.

From the 1st of July, I'll be unemployed.

When did you find that out?
- Yesterday.

That's a problem,

those are the fears.

You're a skilled worker?

Yes, I am...

but the firm is going bankrupt.

We must wait and see.

In a market economy you
must use your elbows to survive.

I'm not that sort.

Not the "Dallas" type?
- As my husband says:

if I go over there
it wouldn't be right.

You'll be unhappy.

But you're willing to give up low rents

run the risk of your employers
going out of business

all in exchange for a freer future?

At any cost, yes!

That's certainly untrue.

She had closer contacts?
- Yes.

There were many closer
contacts there, of course

which is only natural,
because the Berliner Ensemble,

Brecht himself,

had become a tool of
the East German government,

The privilege to travel,
while others cannot,

should it be refused until
everyone is allowed to travel?

You could have stayed away,

Staying away was never an option for me.

It's hard to explain that to you.

I needed these...

I probably needed the pressure,

the dictatorship,

because I grew up in the other one.

I know how to deal with dictatorships.

And democracy bores me.

Do you have family in the West?
- My sister lives in France

In France?

We wanted to go together
two years ago,

but we weren't allowed.

The police needed a reason for
my wife to go on holiday with me.

They said I shouldn't
even make an application.

They couldn't imagine why
we wanted to go together.

I couldn't understand.
Finally I asked the policeman

if he went on holiday
without taking his wife along?

They made us feel cheap, like dirt.

They always made us look small.

We went to my sister's in March.
- It was lovely!

Paris?
- No, Lyon.

Just being together
like that, is wonderful.

Above all, because it's shared.

And to discover what was denied.

Lyon, the South of France,
it is just beautiful.

We can go to England,
to France, anywhere we like.

But first I must work and save,
we all realise that.

We're going to Bavaria for two weeks.

We're off next Sunday and
we're very excited about it.

I'd also love to go to France, or England.

And we'd like to go to
Morocco and Tunisia, where it's hot.

But first we need

to get to know more of Germany-

it's been so long, I was last
over there when I was a soldier.

We really must see our
German homeland again.

Governing Mayor...
Berlin, the capital of Germany?

I don't think any other German
city is as suitable as Berlin

because it embodies a modern,
liberal, democratic, thriving Germany.

And it was an anti-Nazi
working-class city.

That's part of it, yes.

What about the argument of those in Bonn

who contend that it would
arouse less fear abroad,

"The little German town" of Adenauer?

I think that makes
no sense whatsoever.

Just recently I was in Israel,

and there I explained that German history

should be seen from the cities
where the Holocaust was planned.

That the business of German politics

should remember our errors,
the darkest parts of German history

so that history remains present

when we shape future policy.

Ever since the construction of the wall,
on 13th August, 1961,

we have hoped and longed for this day.

Today we are the happiest people on earth.

There is a song:

This is the happiest day of my life

For the first time I know
I'm in love

That's Joseph Schmidt.

I didn't know that one,
not consciously, at least.

And now there is the controversy

about Potsdamer Platz.

Do you think that
Mercedes is the right partner?

The Mercedes Benz people are
always talking about sending signals

but letting city planners

work with the richest,
most powerful German company...

It seems a bit surprising
for a Social Democrat

Because abroad...
Mercedes is prestigious...

One is reminded of Berchtesgaden
and the car Chamberlain arrived in.

Wertheim was there.
There was Haus Vaterland, Kempinski.

But why, if there's
going to be city planning

are Gestapo buildings

and Hitler's bunker being preserved

even though there are
no Jews left in Germany?

Surely they could build nicer cafés

German history is on
every corner of Berlin.

This is the happiest day.

In my life

For the first time I know

I'm in love

I don't want to miss this day

This is just a miracle

The area around Potsdamer Platz
is a comparatively faceless desert.

You can hardly recognise the
layout of the old Potsdamer Platz.

One hardly recognises Leipziger Platz,
where the Wertheim store once stood.

As soon as buildings stand there again,

when the area is populated,

old memories will be rekindled again.

With Mercedes Benz?
- Why not with Mercedes Benz?

Mercedes Benz has played
a role in German history

like other firms, incidentally,
such as Flick, Krupp

Rheinmetall Borsig,
Reichswerke Hermann Göring...

So it's not Marlene Dietrich's
Falling in love again

I doubt that these
managers think of it

so that girls stroll
past cafés in spring?

You think they're incapable of that?
- Yes.

Well, but why?

Because they are managers!

The Berlin police,
not far from Potsdamer Platz

are dancing on eggshells in
and out of the "Polish market"

People are being arrested,

then released -
no "repression", of course.

But why arrest them
in the first place?

One: they're not Poles.

Two: they're not arrested.
Three: it's illegal gambling.

It's predominantly Yugoslavs.

Four: one can't do more than
check the perpetrator's identity.

They can't be prevented
from repeating the offence.

You want them jailed?

No, for heaven's sake!
You can't detain them

because of the
general climate I suppose?

No, it's the law!

Hello!

We're from the BBC.

BBC?

Stop with this filth!

Calm down!

What filth?

I have a right not to be photographed.
- You have a right?

You also have duties as a citizen!
- But not towards them!

So walk out of the picture.
You have no right to push them around.

You should read this!
- Why not read it yourself?

That's exactly what
you did to this gentleman.

Go where the crimes are,
where they steal cars.

That'll keep you occupied!

What about grandmothers
selling off grandfather's watch

or selling stamps to make
their lives a little easier?

Why are they chased away?

Are they chased away?
Sure, we've seen it.

Isn't the Polish market still there?
- Yes, because they come back again.

Those are Hitler stamps.

People don't do that idly.

It's because of desperation, hunger.

No?

These people should be given a chance

because they only come
here because they're starving.

Above all the majority is interested

in the question of Deutschmarks.

It's the question of questions,
even for Party members.

Herr Hermlin, let me
interrupt you once more.

All your life you've fought
for communism, for the People.

What did you fight for,

if you don't believe
the People can be right?

Well, I admit I've seldom
thought the People were right.

Nevertheless, I believe
that a socialist system

though far from
being a paradise on earth

is still the alternative to the
old exploitation-based society.

For the first time they
can be self-appointed victims,

They're no longer the perpetrators.
They are the victims.

They can turn on those
they made into victims:

the reds, the Jews...

Accuse them?
- Yes.

At what point did you and your
Party decide to join forces with Gandhi?

I went to Leipzig
with the Deputy Ministers

of the Interior and National Defence

on Friday, 13th October.

When was the moment the
police were told not to use force?

When was it? Your decision?

Honecker stated on his hospital bed

that he was the one who made the calls

that he got Christa Wolf's daughter
out of jail.

Who did it, then?

I've no intention of arguing
with Erich Honecker in his absence.

And it's too late anyway!

The only important thing is
that an order was never given

for shooting, for police deployment.

But there has been a lot of shooting...

Earlier, at the wall and the borders.

You asked me about recent events...
- Yes, back in October!

You signed Christa Wolf's appeal?

Yes. I did believe in
this country's independence.

I did not sign it, but I could
have signed it. I wasn't even asked.

That was the only reason.
I would have signed it

Yes, I did sign it.

Do you still believe in it?

I don't, not anymore... no!

Each time people marched, they felt:
today there'll be shooting.

It wasn't just once, it intensified.

Where were you on November the 9th?
What were your feelings?

I was here at home.

It was clear to me on that day that
the fate of East Germany was sealed.

So, no joy?

Not for me, really.

The wall was anachronistic,
but it should have fallen differently

if East Germany was to have a
chance on standing on its own.

But why is it so important to
"The Mother of the Revolution"

if life changes in East Germany

or all Germany- what's the difference?

That's now becoming clear.

We've missed many chances in East Germany.

Until the 9th of November

we were fighting for more democracy.

Our demands grew out of our daily lives

freedom of travel, press, opinion,

human rights and citizen's rights.

After November 9th, after
Kohl drafted his ten-point plan

the unification of Germany
seemed to become the only issue.

And then our own separate demands

were, I believe,
somehow forgotten, dropped.

The decisions now being taken
here are all in the interest of Bonn

not in the interest
of those who live here.

You wanted a neutral Germany?

Yes, demilitarized at least.

You still want that?
- Yes.

And it will no longer be possible.

It's another lost opportunity.

But who missed all these chances?

Was it the big, bad capitalists?

Who discouraged you so badly?

Last year, it became clear
to many in the opposition

that we should get out of the church

and talk to all the others.

And we were actually surprised

that millions joined in.

That shows that we were
in fact an isolated bunch

unable to judge how heavy
the pressure on the people was.

But weren't you glad that...

Yes, it was wonderful, very beautiful.

When was the most dangerous
moment of the turnaround?

The 4th of November, the day of
the big demonstration in Berlin.

On that day one thought
something might explode.

That people might march

on the Brandenburg Gate,
but they stayed "well behaved".

They turned around just
where they were supposed to.

The army and the police were
stationed at and around the wall.

That was the moment when
it was decided somewhere

whether it would be peaceful,
or whether there would be shooting.

When Markus Wolf

and Schabowski were booed off,
were you there?

Yes.
- How did you feel about that?

That people have a good sense of justice

and I hope they won't forget.

Today is July the 1st,

your fellow citizens have now
exchanged East Marks for Deutschmarks.

How do you view this day?
Is it a capitulation?

Does it sadden you?
Do you think it's normal?

Today is just another
milestone along the way.

The way to what? Money, money, money?

The way to rapid German unification,

in which so much is given up.

Now monetary sovereignty
has been given up, too.

Some will make money and be
able to fulfil their wishes.

And very many others, no matter
what their wishes are, will be left out.

Were you able to take
something to the bank on 1st of July?

We'll have about 8,000 marks,
with the money still to come to us,

4,000 each in 40 years.

But the elderly are worse off.

They tried to get along for years,

always hoping that things
would get better.

Now what?

I'm scared, too,
that they'll be left behind.

Suddenly, money and
freedom are considered the same.

And the people of East Germany have
again ended up with insufficient freedom.

They will earn less and
they will work much more

and they'll pay for East Germany's
reconstruction - no one else will.

Somehow, a change in our
thinking will have to take place.

How do you see the whole situation?

You really want to know?

I think the Germans have the same
right of self-determination as others.

And I can't get over the
fact that the wall has gone.

That's so positive,

I can't understand the
other anxieties, including yours.

True, the wall has been pushed
back a bit, but it's not gone.

What do you mean?

State property will be privatized.

The little people will be empty-handed.

That saddens me. For 40 years
they fought hard for a better life.

The best part of it is
the feeling of being free.

You can speak your mind over a beer,
or while eating out with friends.

You don't have to worry about
the man behind you... listening!