No Mercy, No Remorse (2022) - full transcript

We have an awful
fascination with the dark twins,

evil and tragedy.

It is what makes us slow
and stare at an accident scene,

prepared to be horrified
at what we see,

and yet we still look.

And it is what makes us wonder
what makes a serial killer,

that rare body
that walks among us,

hiding in plain sight.

But I couldn't sleep
a wink, because, um...

..the reality is,
you know, he'd gone again

and...and, uh, we'd missed
our opportunity and...



..it was...it was just
gut-wrenching.

Could you just hold that up?

The offender was a quiet loner
named Paul Charles Denyer.

The signs were there

that Denyer was
a potential psychopath...

That's the way you operate it.

..if anyone had bothered
to look.

It was 1993,

long before
social media dominated

the communications landscape,

and by any definition,
Melbourne was blessed

with a relatively low
crime rate.

But in the bayside suburb
of Frankston,

that changed in just six weeks,



when three women -

Elizabeth Stevens,

young mother Debbie Fream

and schoolgirl Natalie Russell -

were stalked and murdered
in the dead of winter.

The serial killer forced
a large slice of Melbourne

into virtual lockdown

and left a homicide task force
fighting the clock.

Yeah, look, I was on call
on 11 June 1993,

running a team.

And we got the call, and
no different to any other job.

We've got a body
of a young female

in a place called Lloyd Park,

which is about 3km, um,
east of Frankston.

Um, she's in a culvert.

She's, um, dressed.

And it was absolutely pouring

and so we were behind
the eight ball

before we even started.

It was just like
a satanic killing

because of the...

..the wounds to the torso
concerned us,

the very significant injuries
to the throat.

Um, that, uh...

It was, I suppose, you could say

a stage of an overkill.

And that tells you a story

that there is no way known
this woman is going to survive

because she would've been able
to identify the offender.

So you read these things
into it.

Very quickly you could tell
with the first murder

that, um, Elizabeth Stevens,

it was unusual

and certainly,
with the marks on her body,

there was something astray.

So the Homicide squad
took that on immediately.

When I saw the...
the marks on the body,

uh, they were unusual

and there is a history
of that type of behaviour

with serial killers,

so I was immediately alert to

the potential for
something worse to come.

We had that many suspects,

it was really a difficult
process to try and filter down

as to who or someone
we should look at.

And we looked at
plenty of individuals

and invested lots of time

in what ended up being
red herrings

but you don't know it
at the time

and you've got to follow
the trail.

And we had a mannequin we
dressed as the same clothing,

um, had a face depicted
on the mannequin,

and we had leaflets,
we did roadblocks

to try and put her on that bus.

This was well before CCTV
was in vogue that we have today.

We certainly knew
she was at the TAFE college.

From that point, blank.

Then came the issue with
a missing persons report

of Debbie Fream.

Um, and it wasn't until
her body was found,

um, near a farmland

just out of Frankston.

And once I went to that scene,

you could see that she'd been
fully clothed.

Uh, throat was cut savagely -
same as Elizabeth Stevens.

She had one or two branches
covering her,

and then you knew.

Detectives have been told

she was driving erratically.

She appeared to be
in a distressed state

and was flashing the headlights
of the car

to, uh...presumably
to attract attention.

The second murder,
everyone started to fear that,

"Do we have a serial murder
in the town?"

And questions in the media
started sparking that.

But the issue then was

of keeping calm
within the community,

of not going out
and declaring that.

He, uh...he struck when

there was extremely heavy...
heavy rain happening,

lightning and thunder and, um...

And as we eventually found out,
the reason he did that

was it offered him
a cloak of opportunity

to strike when no-one
would hear anything,

no-one would hear
anyone screaming

because of the rain and the...
and the extreme weather.

Debbie Fream lived
with her boyfriend, Garry Blair,

in Kananook Avenue, Seaford.

On July 8, 1993,

she drove down the road
to the local milk bar

to buy eggs, milk
and a chocolate bar.

She was out of the car
for little more than a minute.

Her son, Jake, was 12 days old.

I remember the public identified
Debbie Fream's car

that had been dumped
in Frankston,

and that was
our first breakthrough,

as far as I was concerned.

And that's when we knew
that the offender

must live within
walking distance of that car.

We had blood in the car

and it had been driven back.

There are, uh, perhaps
some similarities,

uh, in the two recent murders.

And we wanted to deal with
the crime scene

where the car was found
and the car itself.

But at that stage,

Peter took the view that, uh,

we've got real problems here
with this guy

and we need to get, um,

a really strong investigation
focus on it.

But the community
could read about it -

two women abducted

within a matter of weeks
of each other,

unassociated.

We're sick and tired
of these attacks.

The fact that you can't even
go down to your local milk bar

without being attacked is now
very serious in this area.

I'm certainly not saying that
there is a serial killer loose.

What I am saying is that
there are similarities

between the murder of...
in Frankston

and the murder at Langwarrin.

And because of that,

people shouldn't treat them
in isolation.

I would like to see as many
local residents as we can

get to the meeting

because there'll be
authorities there

that can tell us exactly what
to do for our own protection.

The mood in Frankston
at the time

was, um...

..everyone was in fear.

Um...you know, we...
we didn't really know

exactly what was going on.

Detectives revealed
their latest lead

in the hunt for
Debbie Fream's killer

in the wake of last night's
huge turnout

to a community crisis meeting
at Seaford.

Dozens of people
were turned away

when the local community Centre
reached capacity.

But on the night that
Debbie Fream disappeared,

he observed a man washing blood
from his hands and face

in the Seaford area.

And they were really quick -
relatively quick.

One after the other.

So there was a real sense,

especially after the second one,

"What's gonna happen next?"

And there are times
when things occur

that are beyond your control.

And yet you can see

a community becoming agitated.

And that's what started
to occur then.

You started to see
a community concerned.

Not turning on itself,

but concerned and worried
and wanting resolution.

I know my wife was concerned

to go, um, anywhere by herself.

Um, it was the topic of
everyone's conversation

in a coffee shop or at home.

So that fear quickly developed.

The media were...

I don't like to use
the word 'frenzied',

but there was a lot of activity
in Frankston

about, um, the potential that
this guy could strike again.

It was difficult to,
uh, take over the control

of another team's murder,

but, um, we had to work our way
through that,

and we did.

Offenders are lazy.

So we made a decision to do
a 2km square doorknock

from where that car
radiated from.

The big plan was to call in
all the resources

from the other crime squads

to come in and assist us
with a doorknock

and account for every
individual, teenager upwards.

And they tend to, um...

..gravitate to the areas
they are living in.

And so it is, um, reasonable

to think that or suspect

they may be living not too far

from where the first incident
occurred

and, um, may even be living
closer to the second incident

and so on.

The fear
in the community,

the resources that
we had to redirect

from all over the state
for Operation Reassurance

so that we were doubling
and tripling the patrols

in the streets,

we were sending out messages
to the community

about making sure young women,

that they're being careful,
they're being vigilant,

if there's no need to go out,
then don't.

Obviously, women,
um, travelling alone

or, uh...have got to
take precautions

in relation to, um,
their activities

in the Frankston area
at this present point in time.

You know, don't be left
in isolated situations.

Like, that sort of messaging,
as you would know,

it certainly puts a lot of
pressure on a community,

right up to government.

Dubbed 'Operation Reassurance',

there will be boosted patrols
around the clock.

The helicopter will make
regular sweeps,

the Mounted Branch
will tour the streets.

The Transit Patrol
will ride the trains.

They say it's not good enough

that people are hiding
in their homes in fear.

We had a chap.

We did a doorknock
on this particular house.

He opened the door.

He was covered in blood
and told us to fuck off.

Got a warrant, searched him,

ended up he was
a self-mutilator.

We identified a suspect,

who had moved out of
Debbie Fream's street,

um, the night,
uh, she was murdered,

with a horrific history.

So... And had taken off.

So we thought, uh,

he's gotta be worth a good look.

We found out he was at Corryong

and I went up to Corryong with
Charlie Bezzina and Mark Wolf,

and while we were up there,

unfortunately,
Natalie Russell was murdered.

So on the night Natalie
Russell was reported missing,

I went to the football
at the MCG

and I...I didn't get home
until about midnight.

And I was met at the front door
by my wife.

And, um...and she told me that
a young girl had gone missing

and that my people had been
trying to locate me all night.

Of course,
this predated mobile phones.

Then that evening,
a sergeant doing a search

locates the body
of Natalie Russell,

uh, through a cut wire
in the fence

off this track
in the golf course.

So I got into my car
and drove into the office.

And, um, yeah...

I started getting phone calls
from people saying,

"Is she with you?"

And I was like, "No,"

um, "I was expecting her
to call me," or something.

And, um, then I started to panic

once I sort of...

'Cause it was very unusual
for her.

She was always very careful
to, um, you know,

not let people worry about her

especially in the current
situation that was in Frankston.

The victim was identified

by Dr Darren Russell...

..Natalie's brother.

We fast-forward then

to the body being found
Friday night.

The next day, the Saturday,

we were running a major
operation in Frankston

involving 200 detectives,

where we were gonna doorknock
an area of Frankston

with a profile,

trying to flush out
who this might be.

We were going to catch up
that night.

I think that was her plan
that night.

Um, she was...
uh, for some reason,

going home earlier,
walking home.

I think the plan was
to get picked up by her mum.

But she was going home
and walked down that track

and, um...

Yeah, we were planning on
meeting up

and probably meeting with
other friends

and, yeah...

I thought we had
two weeks to resolve it

because, like, if it wasn't
school holiday time

parents would've been terrified

about sending their kids
to school.

So I thought, in my own mind,

that for the community's sake,

we really had
two weeks to resolve it.

And want of a better word,

it's the chase
that you're involved in,

is you're building the evidence
and the clues from one body

at a crime scene

to eventually making an arrest.

And, you know,
there was a lot of pressure

being brought on the
investigators to catch this guy.

You could've thrown a match
and the place would've exploded.

And there was...
there was outrage,

but more importantly,

there was this genuine,
genuine fear

and the police were doing
everything they could

to identify a suspect
and to make the arrest.

Uh, but it wasn't an easy time
for the community down there.

Isn't it about time
that the government decided

to bring back
capital punishment?

I think with the investigators,

there's pressure on them to...
to get a result

and get a result
as soon as possible.

But my job is to try and take
that pressure off them

and manage that and manage
what might happen in the future

and let them focus on
what actually happened

and what they need to deal with.

So on the Saturday morning, um,

we had a couple of known serious
sex offenders and suspects,

uh, so myself and a team,
we quickly went...

..visited a couple of houses.

We seized some clothing from
a couple of addresses.

And then we set up, at 10AM,

we set up an information caravan
in Skye Road,

right at the bottom
of the laneway

where Natalie was murdered.

And then it was
shortly after 3 o'clock,

Rod Wilson come to the caravan

and, um...

..he produced, um, some reports
that had come in,

uh, one of course
from the, uh...

..the young postal officer
that had noticed the car

and there were
the two other sightings

just prior to Natalie's murder

at the Langwarrin
Fauna and Flora Reserve.

And also there was
another sighting

at the Kananook railway station.

Of course, I wasn't to know it
at the time,

but we had him inside 24 hours.

Postie Vicky Collins
was on her delivery round

when she saw a driver
trying to hide

inside a parked yellow sedan.

It was 3:05pm and Denyer was
about to murder Natalie Russell.

She stopped at a house
to ring police.

It would be the first time

police could place Denyer
at the crime scene.

He was then
the number one suspect.

Whilst I was at
the Frankston Police Station,

I was alerted to the fact that

these young cops had checked
that vehicle yesterday.

"Hey, boss, we checked the car

"not far from there
on Skye Road,"

and that's when it all evolved.

And it happened to be
right opposite the track

where we assumed Natalie
had walked at the time

she was...she went missing.

So it was the golden nugget
of information

that we'd...we'd looked at...
we looked for

and then we then started
concentrating on

who this guy was

and it just went from there.

And there was
one of those moments.

I looked at Rod and I just knew.

I said...

.."This is him."

We decided then,

um, that myself and Mick Hughes
would go down.

Uh, just the two of us.

Although, we had reinforcements
not too far away

because if it's him, you know,

we've gotta be extremely
careful of how we approach him.

Not many people around.

I was doorknocking

and I was literally speaking to,
um, the resident,

just asking
if they'd seen anything.

And it was interesting - out of
the corner of my right eye,

I saw a car going
at a really fast rate of knots.

And I could see my crew
in there,

so the Frankston detectives,
in the car.

And they must've seen me.

I don't know how, 'cause they
were travelling too quick,

heading somewhere.

Um, and they pulled up
the brakes, backed back

and yelled out to me
to jump in the car.

Uh, we went to the door.

Um, it was just a small flat
in, uh...in Frankston

where he was living.

Um, we went inside.
He invited us in.

Uh, we just said we were
following up on the doorknock.

He said, "Come in."

He offered me a cigarette.

Um...

He was just too effusive
about us being there

and...and it was just
a little unnatural.

And then we invited him back
to the police station, um,

all under pol...
under caution, of course.

And again, I'll warn you
that you're not obliged

to say or do anything
unless you wish to,

and anything you say or do
may be given in evidence.

He was very, very comfortable
in coming back

and wanting to help.

He was so enthusiastic
about the opportunity

to play the game,
to be important again,

to come down and be the Centre
of me asking him questions

about his movements

over the last, you know,
five or six weeks.

I intend to interview you

in relation to the death

of Natalie Russell.

Um, before continuing,
I must inform you

that you're not obliged
to say or do anything,

but anything you say or do
may be given in evidence.

-Do you understand that?
-Yeah.

You know, sometimes, when you've
worked homicide for a long time

you just get a bit of a gut
feeling about, um, individuals.

I think there's
nothing better than video.

You actually can see demeanour.

You can see how people respond
to questions,

whether it's an obvious
sort of lie

or, um...

"Can you account for
your movements over...

.."since the...
the Russell murder?"

May.

Police say, from May,
you haven't worked since then.

I think that's right, yeah.

You're on the fly.
You don't know much about him.

No.

Just, uh, stopping there
for a moment.

What sort of car do you have?

Uh, 1974 Toyota Corona.
Corona Mark II.

Corona Mark II?
What colour is that?

Uh, yellowish cream.
Cream yellow.

Right.
What's the registration number?

Denyer had started on a path

of what he termed 'hunting'.

This was real.

One of the things
that I've discovered

in looking at serial killers

is that their biographies
are typically quite vague

about their childhood.

But in fact,
if you rely on the evidence

of other people,

you see this pattern
of childhood trauma

and, um, absolutely
unrelenting brutality

that they're subjected to.

And I guess,
if you think about it,

if you bought a puppy
and you got it at eight weeks

and you brutalised it every day,

you wouldn't really be
terribly surprised,

uh, if it turned out to be
a very angry dog.

I've seen the vehicle today.

It has no registration plates.

That's correct.

Why is that?

'Cause it's currently
unregistered.

But he was...
you know, he was ready

'cause he...
he knew we were coming.

He'd prepared himself
to explain his movements.

Uh, car started to overheat
on the way home,

so I pulled over into
a little car park area

next to a flora reserve.

Mm-hm.

Uh...

I checked the water.
Topped it up.

What time do you think you
would've actually broken down

in Skye Road,
opposite the golf course there?

Now, you would've turned left
into Skye Road

and you parked on the left-hand
side of the road?

-Yeah.
-Just normally parked?

Yeah, just up against the kerb.

Up against the kerb. Alright.
So what did you do then?

You got the bonnet up
at this stage?

Yeah, got the bonnet up.

I checked my toolbox
to see if I had, you know,

a proper screwdriver
to do it up with...

-To do what up with?
-The hose clamp.

I put the hose back on, but
I wanted to do the hose clamp.

-To make it a bit tighter?
-Yeah. So it wouldn't come off.

At that stage,
when you're in Skye Road,

how far from home were you?

About a 25-minute walk.

Natalie was a...

She was a really intelligent
young woman.

Um...

She...she loved writing.

She...she was interested
in journalism.

Um, she...she used to like

wearing purple
and black clothes,

you know, she...

I think people
would've called her a Goth.

You know, she had very dark hair

and, um, dark eyes and, uh...
and, um...

But...and she had a really,
uh, funny sense of humour,

a quirky sense of humour,

which everyone loved about her.

Had you become aware that a girl

was found murdered
in Frankston...

Yeah, I've heard a lot about it.

Her body was found in Frankston
yester...uh, today.

-Today being Saturday.
-Yeah.

When did you first become
aware of that?

Well, I saw some police cars
and everything

when I was driving up Skye Road
this morning at 8:30.

Sorry, you saw
SES workers and all that.

Mmm.

- In Skye Road.
- Yeah.

They had some white tape
across the walkway.

I saw you.

-I'm sorry - you saw me?
-Yeah, I saw you.

And I saw, uh...the other guy
I was talking to in there.

I saw youse...you guys
standing next to a van.

Oh, yeah? What sort of van?

White one. Like a caravan.

-Big van.
-Oh, yeah.

A lot of them are rat cunning

and they might appear not to be

the brightest person
in the world,

but they're rat cunning

when it comes to
trying to cover their tracks

or set up an alibi or whatever.

They get a lot of that
from television, of course.

Can you just detail to me

what clothing you had on
yesterday

when you were in Skye Road?

Yesterday.

Yesterday, I had,
uh, black pants.

Right.

I had black shoes.

What sort of black pants?

-Tracksuit pants.
-Right.

I had a black pair
of Aerosport runners.

Right. What size foot are you?

-10.
-Right.

Oh, 10, 11.

He was able to recount
his movements

down to the nth degree

about where he was on
a particular night,

where he'd had dinner,
what he...you know, etc, etc.

Now, I don't know about you,
John,

but I can barely remember
what I did two days ago.

If the police came along
and looked at your car...

I would have seen them, yeah.

You would have seen that,
wouldn't you?

Course.

You would've taken
particular attention

if the police had come along.

Yeah, I would've been worried

about the car
being unregistered.

Yeah.

What time do you think
you were...

..got from the park,
assuming you drove directly,

to the time that you noticed
that the...temperature rising

and pulled up your car

in, um, Skye...Road?

I think
what we found was,

the day after
he'd killed Natalie Russell,

he was out and about again.

I think he was actually
actively looking

for opportunities to kill again.

He was narrowing the time frames

or the time between,
um, each person he killed,

'cause he was
getting away with it

and he was becoming
far more brazen.

When your car was parked
in Skye Road,

um, it was checked
by the police.

-Right.
-Um...

Were you aware of that?

No.

You're not aware of that?

Well, when a friend of mine
told me

they heard my name
over a scanner yesterday.

Sorry?

Friend of mine told me...
I spoke to her this morning.

She said she heard my name
mentioned and my address

and details of my car mentioned
over a police scanner.

How did she come to hear

your name over the scanner?

She's got a scanner, has she?

-A friend of hers has.
-Who's that?

I don't know. She didn't say.

She was sitting in the car
with them

and, you know,
heard my name over a scanner.

When did your name
come over the scanner?

Yesterday.

Probably when you said,
when the police checked my car.

-Probably then, yeah.
-I see. Wow.

What struck me was...
his recall.

"Elizabeth Stevens
was found dead on this day."

"Jeez, that day
I was down there."

He put himself
in every location.

He put himself at
every murder scene.

"And you know I was in Skye Road

"because you've told me
you checked my car."

So, you know,
on we went from there.

But there was a long way to go,
long way.

It's all about proving it.

So you saw me this morning.
You saw a van set up.

You knew that 12 o'clock,

from what the other girl
had told you,

that your car had been mentioned

and your name and that read out
over the...over the, uh...

..over the scanner or something.

-Yeah.
-With the details of your car.

You saw a caravan set up,

but you didn't think
it'd be relevant to say

that you had your car
parked there,

knowing that the police
had checked it.

Well, I thought, you know,

if the police, you know, checked
my car out sitting there...

Mm.

..it'd be, you know, routine
for them to come and see me.

So you expected the police
to come and see you?

Yeah, I just thought, you know,

you guys would come around,
yeah.

One of my lads,
Darren O'Loughlin,

uh, he...he was tasked
to sit with Denyer

during the course of the...

..during the course
of the evening

while Rod and his team
were moving in and out,

making inquiries
and following up things

and looking at
what had been recovered

from his address and...

He asked
what my thoughts were

about the murders.

And I said,
"Look, I'm not involved

"in the investigation at all.

"I've got no idea
what evidence they have,

"what they're doing,"

um, along those sort of lines.

What I did say is that, um,

"Whoever's committing
these crimes

"is influenced by a demon.

"They're pure evil."

And...and that caused him
to stop and think

and say,
"I used to go to church."

And I said,
"Oh, OK. Which church?"

And he said, "Seaford."

I said, "Who's the pastor?"

He said,
"Pastor Peter Nicholls."

And I was a bit shocked

because it was just
a coincidence

or a set of unusual facts

that I had just started
a marriage course with my wife

in Pastor Peter Nicholls's home

at the same time.

And so I didn't say anything

because the last thing
you want to do

is give away
your personal, um, details.

The...the thing that stuck
in my mind,

he said,

"They," the Church,
"see me as a wolf

"in sheep's clothing."

I noticed a number of cuts
on your fingers.

Yeah.

Can you just, um,
put your hands...

..flat on the desk here

so that, um...

Just right up here.

He now saw that every headline
and every news bulletin

led with, um,

"There's a serial killer
on the loose."

It just gave him
a sense of importance

that he was the...
he was the subject

of what everybody
was talking about

and it made him feel important.

On his finger here,

he had a large chunk of skin
missing.

- You've got a cut here.
- Hmm.

- See here?
- Yep.

- And you've got a cut here.
- Yep.

When did they occur?

I'm not quite sure
when they occurred.

OK, so at the same time,

there's obviously
a live post-mortem being...

..uh, is occurring
simultaneous to the interview.

Probably just over an inch long.

It's on the middle finger
of your left hand.

If you can just show it that way
so we can see it a bit clearer.

See how it's about, um, oh,
about a quarter of an inch wide,

would you agree?

And it has an irregular
sort of edge.

You filled the radiator,
I take it?

Yeah.

How did you get that injury?

I...I got it when I was fiddling
around with some wires

down on the alternator.

-It's...
-When?

When I was at home.

I was topping up the water
when I was at home.

I didn't really feel it at first
'cause it was so quick.

But, I mean,
that's a fairly deep...

How are you saying it occurred?

Well, the fan spins this way,

so if I'm standing
at the front of the car...

Yeah.

Like here. Fan spins that way.

-The alternator sits there.
-Yeah.

And there's some wires
running down underneath.

If we just show up
your right thumb,

just round to the camera here...

..see that...that cut there?

-You have a look at it.
-Yeah.

It's a straight,
long cut.

Yeah.

And it's probably,
what, about an...

What would you say?

Two inches long?

Deep at the top?

How did you do that?

I think I did it when I was
sharpening a knife at home.

-Sharpening a knife at home?
-Yeah.

A Wiltshire.

See, you've got another...
another, um...

..another cut just to the...
just near it.

You see what I mean?

It's... See, it's...it's...

They appear to me
to be fairly recent.

Yeah,
or a couple of days, I think.

And in...in this case,

um, with Natalie,

it...it was a moment that,

uh, when we did discover
the piece of skin,

which is now well documented,

that it was almost a disbelief.

Um, it was in a position,
in a place,

where we could've
easily missed it.

- Telling the truth?
- Yeah!

Absolutely telling the truth?

Yeah, I'm telling you.
I mean...

You couldn't have cut
your thumb that way

'cause the sharp edge
is underneath.

And again, when I challenge you
on that,

I don't think you're telling
the truth about that.

Well, I am.

He sort of looked up
at you and stopped

and it was almost
the 'gotcha' moment, where...

It was a realisation,
certainly from him,

for the first time, I said...

..there was an indication
that I didn't believe him.

'Cause the rest of the time,
I was,

as I said, non-confrontational,

"tell your story,"
and no challenge.

But that was a challenge

because that was clearly

a reaction to a lie.

And he knew it and I knew it
at that moment.

It required
a high level of skill

to keep that process going

and slowly introduce doubt

into Denyer's mind.

You can get sidetracked
too easily,

so you've gotta keep
an open mind

and you've gotta make sure
those around you

keep you focused on...

.."This is
just another suspect."

Look, it was interesting
to see the mechanics.

You know, it's, um,
one of those things.

Because we were doing
the interview

at the Frankston Police Station,

and we'd all be out in the
corridor looking at the monitor.

Didn't ask for a solicitor.

Was happy to answer questions.

Um, and as it went along,

uh, he put himself
at every scene.

And, significantly,
when Rod asked him

about the injuries to his hand,
had an answer for that.

What was his car doing there?
He was looking for water.

Car overheated.

"I injured my hand
on a fan belt."

Had an answer for everything.
Went on and on.

Um, it was really one of those
times where, uh...

..that you really felt like
that we did a job

and we did an important job

and it was just
an incredible relief

to actually
have someone in custody

that they really believed
that was him.

Do you recall...

..the, um...

..another murder prior to...

Yeah, I read...

..Natalie Russell
being found today?

-Debbie Fream?
-Yeah.

Yeah, I...

That caused a lot of publicity.

Right.

That caused a lot of publicity.

I know how they died.

-How did they die?
-Two of them died.

-Well...
-Who?

Elizabeth Stevens
had her throat cut.

And the other girl,
Debbie Fream,

had multiple stab wounds, so...

..to her body and upper body
up here.

-How do you know that?
-Oh, I heard it on the telly.

And the whole process
and relationships start with...

..with families
of the deceased people

and the relationships
you build with them.

And you sit with them
in the court

two years, three years later.

Then you sit with them
in the inquest.

For them, the world changed.

It could never be,
for many of them,

the safe place that
it had previously been.

You indicated with your hand
multiple stab wounds

and you stabbed
towards your neck here.

Yeah, oh, I said the neck,
upper body.

I mean, this is your upper body
here, isn't it?

- Right.
- I mean...

Could've been just here, though.

Could've been just in the
shoulder. Might... You know.

It might've been
in the back of the neck.

-You indicated right here.
-Don't know.

Well, why did you indicate
that area?

I was just pointing
to that area, that's all.

Well, why did you point
to that area?

I don't know. Just...

Serial killers,
police and psychologists say,

travel in their own orbit.

What else do you know about it?

What motivates them
varies from case to case.

But what they share
is a lack of remorse.

How do you do that?

Um, you've seen...

..the bodies of the victims.

You've seen the extreme trauma

of the relatives.

And you have this person telling
you these things matter-of-fact

and you can't...

Do you feel any emotion or...

Um, the...the only emotion
that I feel

is that the endgame
is the only thing that matters.

Getting this guy to court,
getting him convicted,

getting him off the streets

is the only goal we have.

Just...Mr Wilson asked you

before just in relation
to the injuries

and you...you mentioned
some injuries on Debbie Fream.

-Is that correct?
-Mmm.

-That you read in the paper?
-Yeah.

What other injuries
did you read about,

apart from the multiple
stab wounds?

That was all.

If we were to blow
that investigation

because we felt frustrated

or did something that, you
know...that would jeopardise

that in any way,

then...then you couldn't
live with yourself.

Any other injuries that you were
told about or you read about?

Oh, yeah, about the...
noughts and crosses, yeah.

Or anything else
in relation to the other girl?

-The Stevens girl?
-Nah.

So, you know, you are playing
a bit of a game.

You are...
you feel sadness and...

..you know,
especially for the families.

But at the end of the day, it's
all about getting him convicted.

And if it means
being his best friend,

then that's what you do.

Do you know what day it was
when she allegedly went missing?

Thursday night, wasn't it?
Yeah, Thursday night.

Do you know what date that was?
Do you know what the...

No, I don't remember
what date it was.

If I told you
that she went missing

on a Thursday night
on 8th July...

8th, yeah.
You told me that earlier. 8th.

Do you...

Are you able to tell me

your movements on that night?

Yep.

Uh...

I was up at my brother's
place during the day.

2:30 or something,
between 2:30 and 3:30.

I was there for a while.

So you were up at your brother's
place? This is on the Thursday?

-Mm.
-Yeah?

Well, that day I was...

The only thing I remember
about that day

is I was out the front of
my place having a cigarette...

This lack of guilt
means they can plan

each crime without emotion

and conceal their double life
from plain sight.

To their few associates,
they may seem strange,

but hardly capable
of cold-blooded murder.

You know, we're talking
six weeks ago

and he remembered
that he'd got on the bus

and he remembered that he'd gone
to his mother-in-law's...

..or his girlfriend's mother's
for dinner that night.

You know, he remembered
such detail that it...

You know, it beggared belief.

If we look at the, um...

These three particular people

that have been murdered, Paul,

yesterday your car was parked
opposite the location

where the body
of Natalie Russell was found

and you were in the vicinity
around the time.

Oh, I don't know
if I was in the vicinity.

Well, OK,
and I'll withdraw that.

You were certainly in the area

of where her body
was discovered.

Yeah.

On the night that
Debbie Fream disappeared,

you walked over
to Kananook railway station,

missed the train
and walked back.

Are you saying
that is the only night

you missed the train
to pick Sharon up?

I've missed it
a couple of times before that.

Wherever you went,

people were talking about it
in conversation.

You'd be standing in a coffee
shop waiting for a coffee

and someone would be talking
about Paul Denyer or his arrest.

And on the night...

..Elizabeth Stevens disappeared,

you walked in a very close
proximity to Lloyd Park

on your way to pick up
this battery?

Mm-hm.

Do you think that's
fairly coincidental?

Yeah, it is.

-All the circumstances?
-Yeah.

Why did you pick a storm

to go for a two-hour walk
to have a look at a battery?

I don't know. I just felt like
walking up there that night.

Well, I suggest to you
that's a lie.

-What do you say to that?
-I don't reckon it's a lie.

I suggest to you
you did not

go to your parents' place
that night.

I did.

Have you ever carried a knife?

I've carried a knife
a couple of times

when I've walked down
to meet my girlfriend

at night at the station.

Why did you carry a knife?

'Cause we had a bit of trouble

with some local kids
down in Lloyd Park.

What sort of knife
were you carrying?

A Swiss... Like a Swiss Army
knife with a corkscrew on it.

Uh, red handle.

And where would you carry that?

Oh, down me sock.

-Down in your sock?
-Mm.

Why not in your pocket?

Oh, 'cause I had me keys
and me smokes in me pocket

and it's too bulgy.

-So you put it in your sock?
-Yeah.

Any other knives
you've carried on you?

No, not that I can recall.

Well, can you think about that?

His level of offending

had started
when he was quite young.

I think he had issues
in his childhood

with his younger siblings.

He'd ripped the throats
out of a number of their toys.

That had progressed
to killing...

..cutting the throats
of rabbits,

to cutting the throats of goats,

to stalking people,

to...to approaching people
in supermarkets with knives,

to his attempt
to abduct someone...

..to killing.

And they do so without
any apparent remorse

and it seems to help them

get a sense of control
over their environment,

which they seek

and, of course,
that later manifests itself

in terrible ways.

The night that you walked
to Kananook railway station,

the night that Debbie Fream
disappeared,

were you armed with
a knife that night?

-No, no.
-Why not?

Oh, just forgot to take it
with me before I left.

Or I forgot to remember to take
it or something. I don't know.

But you were going
to the railway station

on your own at night.

Mm.

But you didn't
that night?

- I didn't.
- You forgot?

I just didn't think
of taking it. That's all.

Are you responsible for the
deaths of any of these women?

No.

Interestingly enough,
when you see the interview,

we have to get permission

to do what we call
a forensic procedure,

and that permission
was asked for,

that we wanted a hair, blood
sample, medical examination,

and hadn't we got
his permission,

we'd have to then sit down,
do a 15-, 20-, 30-page affidavit

to show to a magistrate or judge

that he was
a significant suspect.

But we didn't have to
go down that path.

Alright, Paul, do you agree
the time is now 12:40am?

Yes.

Now, um...

..you realise that you are not
obliged to say or do anything

unless you wish to,
but whatever you do say...

And they were just
talking casually,

waiting, biding time

until the medical doctor arrived

to take blood samples
and other, um...

..medical examinations.

Again, you're not obliged
to give a sample of your hair

as has been explained to you

in relation to your blood
and fingerprints.

Um, will you give us
a sample of your hair?

-Yeah.
-Alright, then.

And, um, I was praying.

My prayers were in my mind,
under my breath,

for the truth to come out.

That's what the community
wanted. That's what was right.

And mid-sentence,
between the detective and, um...

..himself,

he just turned to face me.

He says, "That man there
gets in my head,"

like, harsh tone.

Demeanour had changed.

Wasn't that calm, collected,

devoid-of-emotion Paul Denyer
you see in the interview.

It was the only time that I felt

that you actually got to see

the evil that the girls
had experienced.

It took Wilson
more than 1,500 questions

to break Denyer's story.

The breakthrough came at 4am,

37 hours after his latest
and final murder.

I believe the Homicide squad
detectives left the room,

getting him a coffee.

He said, "I did it."

I said, "Did what?"

"I committed the murders.
I committed all three."

I did wear a crucifix

and, um, he must have seen that.

I said, "OK, hold that thought,"

took him back into the room

and, um, a Homicide squad
detective was nearby.

I said, "He's admitted
the offences,"

and they said,
"Stay there. Don't move.

"Shut the door,"
and they disappeared.

Then someone came back down

and said, "Darren, you're now
doing the interview,"

and I went, "OK."

You told Detective O'Loughlin

that you were responsible
for the murders

of the three women.

Is that correct?

Before we go any further,
um, Paul...

Young Darren O'Loughlin,
he walked into the muster room

and he was ashen

and he looked out the window

and I remember looking
at him and thinking,

you know, "He's really...
He's had a tough day."

It was very, very difficult

sitting through
what he just sat through

and you could see it
in his face.

He was just very quiet.

I held her hand
to make it look like...

..you know, a couple, I suppose,

so we wouldn't arouse
any suspicion.

We walked past two people
on the footpath,

a guy and a girl, and they just
didn't take any notice.

She didn't even
scream out or anything?

No.

I threw her on the ground

and stuck my foot over her neck.

Right. Why did you do that?

-Oh, to finish it off.
-Right.

As...as a policeman, you...

..are not shocked
by too many things

because, unfortunately, you see
the worst of human behaviour,

you've, unfortunately, gone
to some horrific crime scenes.

So, um...

But there were moments
in that interview

that certainly
sat me back in my seat,

and...and I felt all of us
were in that position

in the way he described some
of the ways he murdered a woman.

Um...

Just wanted to take a life

because I felt my life
had been taken many times.

By whom?

I think that there is
considerable evidence about him

that there may be, um, a pattern

that you see
in a lot of serial killers

of a traumatic background.

There wasn't a lot of evidence

and he hasn't, as I understand,
talked very much about it,

but there's enough
for me to suspect

that he had
a traumatic upbringing

and that many of the things
that happened to him

sowed the seeds
of what happened later on.

I broke into her place
and killed all of her cats.

Why'd you do that for?

I went there
to kill her,

but she wasn't home.

You went to Donna's flat
on Claude Street to kill her?

-Yeah.
-And she wasn't home?

No, she wasn't home.

So you broke in and...
What did you do?

I killed her cats.

-How many of them?
-Three.

-How did you kill her cats?
-Stabbed them.

When would you say

that you first had
a feeling, this aggression,

when you were
walking around here?

When did you first start
to feel like you had to kill?

I like to think
about it this way.

You've got genetics
and personality

which load and point the gun

and it's the environment
that fires it.

I started choking her
with my hands

and, uh, she passed out
after a while.

Everything started
falling into place.

The...the trauma, the fear
that she would've gone through,

it all hits home to you.

The blade broke off.

Where would
the blade be?

In the same spot.

Did you break
the blade off?

Well, it bent
when I was stabbing her.

The blade went, "Zoom!"

And then I broke
the rest of it off

and carried it in my pocket

till I got to there
when I dumped it.

Which side of the road were
you on when you dumped it?

There.

Can you just get that?
Thank you.

Indicate for us.

The blade's about that long.
The handle's about that long.

It's a folding blade.

-Oh, yeah, like a folding knife?
-Mm, a pocket knife.

Elizabeth Stevens
was 10 houses from home

when Denyer dragged her
down a side street

and into a park to die.

Were you angry?

Happy. Sad. Angry.

Many things.

Mixed sort of emotions
at the time? Yeah.

Did...

There was no emotion
or no remorse or no regret.

It was just... It was chilling.

I told her to shut up
or else I'd blow her head off.

Yeah.

Told her to kiss
the end of the gun.

-Did she do that?
-No.

Did you feel any sexual urge
towards her...

..at any stage?

I did when I saw her walking,

but when I grabbed her,
it cut off.

It cut off? Alright.

Just...

I grabbed her neck
and pushed it up like that.

Three or four.

Did you ever strike her
in any way?

-Punch her or anything?
-I might have.

You may have?

It was an astonishing interview.

Um...

I've never seen an offender

who's committed
such serious offences

not downplay in any way
the dreadful things that he did.

Most of your classic psychopaths

have no remorse
and they have no empathy.

What they love is attention.

So this is almost like, um,

a boastful, triumphant moment.

"Look, I'm important.

"I'm successful in what it is
that I set out to do.

"Give me some units
of recognition."

-And...
-Beg your pardon?

I hate 'em.

Those particular girls
or women in general?

It just wasn't...

Look, the murder wasn't normal.

The...the crime wasn't normal.

It was abhorrent in every sense.

But the way he described
to take a life

really sat me back in my seat.

Like, every day, it was just
going up, boiling up

till I got to that stage.

Was that the same night
as the Deborah Fream incident?

A couple of hours before,
something like that.

Right. What were you armed with
at that stage?

Knife, bit of rope.

I mean, that bit of cord, strap.

And, uh, a gun.

And what happened?

I walked up behind her,

grabbed her with me left hand
around her mouth.

Mm-hm.

Stuck the gun on her head here.

Mm-hm.

And, um...

..she started talking
Spanish or something.

And, um, I spoke back
in Spanish.

Do you speak Spanish?

-No, only a few words.
-Oh, yeah.

-Um...
-What did you say back to her?

'Pistola'. Pistol.

Right. OK.

And, um, she screamed a bit

and then bit me
on the finger here.

Oh, right.

Um...

I wrestled her. She ran out on
the road, but no-one stopped.

I grabbed her by the hair

and dragged her back
towards the park

and, um, I said,

"Shut up or I'll blow
your fuckin' head off."

Right.

And she said, "OK, OK,"

or, "Sí, sí,"
in Spanish or something.

And then...

And then she stood up

and went against her word

and ran out on the road again

and I just took off
into the park.

And Denyer was determined
that night

and had a strong urge
to kill that night

and she was a very lucky girl
to get away.

Sometime after that,
there was a second death

of a girl by the name
of Deborah Fream.

Can you relate to me
how that came about?

While she was in the milk bar
I walked to the car

and, um...and checked the
driver's door - it was unlocked.

Right.

So I opened the door,
put my hand through

and unlocked the back door.

Right.

Then I hopped in the car

and crouched down
behind the seat

and pulled out
the gun that I had.

I startled her just
as she was doing that turn

and she kept going straight
into the wall of the milk bar.

I told her to, you know, shut up

or I'd blow her head off
and all of that shit.

What did you do then?

Then I was gonna strangle her,

but I didn't want her to see
the cord go over first.

Were you behind her
at this point?

Yeah, standing behind her.

Denyer just, um...

..just made
a very frank confession

and as horrifying
as it was to hear, um,

what he told us, of course,

was supported
by all the evidence

that had been recovered
at the crime scenes.

What are
you looking for?

Oh, just looking at the tread.

Why's that?

Uh...

I melted them...melted them down

so you wouldn't be
able to trace my shoes.

I'm assuming that he would have
quite disordered thinking

and he would almost lose contact
with reality sometime.

So a lot of the things
that he thought,

a lot of the things that he did

make absolutely no sense to us.

What you have to understand

is that there are delusions
and there are hallucinations.

Delusions are odd beliefs,
fixed beliefs

which bear
no resemblance to reality.

So a lot of the things
that they do

might make sense to them,

but it makes no sense
to us at the time.

How did you feel after it?

Like the temperature gauge
was coming down.

In here.

What do you mean?

I was going up to boiling point

and then afterwards
it just came down

till it was stopped and level
and then climbed up again.

You're referring
to what type of feeling?

Hate, anger.

He was officially charged

with the murders
and the attempted abduction.

And the elation
I couldn't explain.

Um, we'd stitched it up.

As he would
later tell police,

"I've always wanted to kill
since I was 14.

"I've been stalking women
since I was 17,

"waiting for that opportunity,

"waiting for the sign."

We all decided to go to the pub
at about 7:00 in the morning.

I think we had one beer.

That's the green jacket

you were wearing
on the night of...

Yeah, Elizabeth Stevens.

Elizabeth Stevens.
The green army jacket?

Yeah.

- This one?
- That's the one.

50 days straight
without a break

'cause we knew
the pressure was on

and we had to have answers
for the community.

They were looking to us.
We can't look behind us.

It was us.
The buck stops with us.

We had to stop the killing.

The...the damage continues.

It's been my experience

that, um, marriages break up,

people grieve
in very different ways

and they...they can't

ever forget or come to terms.

The notion of closure
is really...

..is really totally irrelevant
in these areas.

The way you operate it...

And that just shoots a...

-It shoots a...
-A ball bearing or something?

Yeah, that's got a hole in it.

Was that the weapon
you used to, um...

When you first approached
Elizabeth Stevens?

Yeah, that's...that's the one.

And the same with Deborah Fream?

Yep.

Same as the woman
at Seaford railway station?

Yep.

The knife
that was used to, uh...

..you used on Debbie Fream,
you said you put into...

-In the ceiling up there.
-Into the ceiling up there?

So if you can just move over
and indicate that.

-There.
-Was it there or that one?

That one and I pushed it across
with a bit of wire.

So it's actually behind...

-It's in the middle there.
-Right.

When were you
in this jumper, sorry?

-Uh...
-The night of Debbie Fream?

Debbie Fream.
Yeah, that's the one.

OK.

Alright.

The relief
when he was apprehended

was just...was just incredible.

I don't think there's been
too many criminals

in the history of Victoria...

..that have terrified a
community like Paul Denyer did.

And Paul Denyer
would later say in the interview

that as he had finished
murdering Natalie Russell,

he was walking back to the car

and he saw the police
at the vehicle...

..and he put his bloodstained
hands into his pocket

and walked the other way.

If police hadn't
logged the car at the time,

Denyer would not have been
placed at the crime scene

and would have been free
to kill again.

Sometimes
it's the little things.

And you said something
about the knife

used to...on Natalie Russell?

Yeah, I left it in there.

Alright, I believe...
I believe the knife's

been collected out of there
and has been taken by Forensics.

-But you put it in there...
-Yeah, I left it in there.

-..at some stage on the Friday?
-Yeah.

Just located the handle
of the, um...

Just put it up here
and I'll just...

That's the one you made?

Yeah, that's kind of...
That's the thickest.

-And was that taped with tape?
-Yeah.

And you just got that
from down on the ground there?

Yeah.

-This is the Grey jumper?
-Yep.

-When did you have this one on?
-Yesterday.

Yesterday.

Did this have blood on it
at some stage?

-Yeah, it would have.
-OK.

And, sure, you can see a monster

in the way he cold-heartedly

and without pity

provided admissions
to those murders.

But as I said before,
the rage was suppressed,

the anger was suppressed.

Um, in no way, shape or form

I felt that you saw

the characteristics
of the viciousness,

the violent, abhorrent crimes

that was committed
against those women.

-You took her through this hole?
-Yeah.

Right, and, uh...

I dragged her through here.

But I was determined not
to become...defeated by it.

I'd made that decision to
overcome it and move forward,

but, you know,
in saying that, it's, uh...

..it's just as hard for me now
to talk about this

as it was 30 years ago.

You know, you sort of think that
it gets easier, but it doesn't.

You just learn to deal with it.

Um...

But, you know, it hurts still.

The scene where
he killed Natalie Russell,

he had other lairs
cut into the golf course,

into the tea-tree area,

and one of those was where he
buried Deborah Fream's purse

with her ID in it,
just like a trophy.

Eventually he found it
and he pulled the purse out

and he pulled the licence out,
"Deborah Fream!"

So that's the location
where you buried the purse?

- Yeah.
- And who's that purse belong to?

Debbie Fream. Her ID
is buried around here somewhere.

Is her ID not in the purse?

You burnt them, did you?

-Did you burn those?
-Yeah.

-Where did you burn those?
-Here.

Put them in.

That's it.

There are certain
facts about Denyer's crimes

that no matter how hard you try,
you just can't forget.

How he walked on the grass so
his footsteps would be silenced

as he stalked Elizabeth Stevens.

How he held
the terrified girl's hand

as if they were
boyfriend and girlfriend

in some obscene pantomime.

How he crept into the
back seat of Debbie Fream's car,

then sprung up so quickly

she lost control
while performing a U-turn

and clipped into the side
of a building,

and she drove head-on
at another car

to try and raise the alarm

only for Denyer to wrestle
the wheel from her.

How he made her drive through
countless streets in the dark

until he found
his preferred murder site.

How he cut two lairs on
the track between golf courses

and crouched in his car,
waiting for a woman,

any woman, to walk past.

How when he grabbed
Natalie Russell,

she must have known
it was the serial killer

and how she begged for her life.

And how Denyer
would later tell police

he found that disgusting.

Denyer, who had terrorised
Frankston for weeks,

left in a cage,
secured in handcuffs.

The killing spree was over.

Die, you scumbag!

Denyer
hunted his victims.

He showed them no mercy.

He did his crimes
beyond reasonable doubt.

You sentenced Denyer
to life, no minimum?

-Yes, I did.
-And...?

Well, the Court of Appeal
said that that was, uh...

..excessive
in the circumstances.

I remember when he was
sentencing Denyer

his voice broke

and, um, I think when...

That was unusual
for me certainly,

sitting in the Supreme Court

and seeing a judge
displaying such emotion

sentencing a criminal.

And I thought about
who the real victims were.

Of course there were
the young women who were killed

and their families
and those around their families

and those who'd been involved

in...in this hunt
for the killer.

But there were
also many thousands

of women and others out there

who had for a period of time
lived with this fear.

He...he made a comment that
has stuck with me for years

and it was along the lines of,

"You are the reason

"people quicken their step
on the way home

"and the reason a parent
looks anxiously at the clock

"because their child
is running late."

Uh,
when he was reading out

the details of what happened,

that was such a shock to me

that, um, I was
totally unprepared for it

and, yeah, I sort of...

I think I blacked out a bit
and, um, left.

Precedent dictates that
if a person pleads guilty,

they must get a discount.

I say change precedent.
Change it.

He got natural life for each one
for 30 years minimum.

Now next year
he's up for parole.

For the family and
friends of Natalie Russell,

this is the latest painful step

in a journey
that started 28 years ago.

It's just something
you don't get over. It's...

You learn to get out of bed
every morning

and put one foot
in front of the other,

but it's there in front of you
all the time.

She was a vibrant, happy,
intelligent girl

and the places
she would've gone...

She was my girlfriend.

What we are asking
the government to do...

..is to make sure that Paul
Denyer stays locked up forever.

Yeah, there's not
a woman in Frankston

that doesn't check her back
seat before she gets in the car.

The only...the only thing
that gave us any consolation

was the fact
that he was locked up

and couldn't do this
to any other family.

And guess what.

The government
now have to legislate...

And I hope that they do.

They need to legislate
to keep this animal

in jail where he belongs

because he's never
gonna be fixed,

he's programmed that way,

and we need to keep
the community safe.

While in prison,

Denyer claimed
he was transitioning

and for a period of time

wanted to be referred to
as 'Paula'.

At one point,
he suggested his crimes

were due to the fact
that he hated women

because he wanted to be one.

All of this is totally
irrelevant to what he did.

It's not an excuse.
It's not a reason.

He was fully aware
of what he was doing.

He went out to murder.

Now in prison,

he's returned to 'Paul' Denyer.

If ever I've seen a person...

..who doesn't deserve freedom,
it's Paul Denyer.

He'll never...

..he'll never not be
a risk to the community.

Never.

We have to be sure 100%

that Paul Charles Denyer
is no longer a risk to women.

No-one can give that guarantee.

The conclusion is inevitable.

Denyer must remain in prison

until he is so infirmed
he can't be a risk

or he's dead -

the very sentence Frank Vincent
gave him in the first place.