Meeting the Man: James Baldwin in Paris (1970) - full transcript

James Baldwin

agreed to make a film

about his life as a writer,

rather than

as a political figure.

Paris seemed

an obvious location,

as it was here that his career

as a successful writer began.

Several of his books

are set in Paris,

and he still spends

a lot of his time here.

Filming began normally enough.

Baldwin reminisced

about his original decision

to leave New York.

When and why

I was going to Paris.

When was November 11th, 1948.

It was a matter

of life or death.

You can't turn your back

in America long enough

to write a book...

or to find out who you are.

I had to be in

a desperate situation

to come so far, with $40.

I don't know how I lived.

I sold my clothes,

I remember that.

I sold my typewriter,

I remember that.

And some people got

very nasty with me because

I didn't have any money.

I hit the streets, of course.

I can't describe... Anyone who's

been there knows what I did.

And anyone who hasn't been,

I cannot tell, you know.

I don't know what I did.

I got through one day

to the next, for four years.

How I did it, I don't know.

No-one I knew had any money.

The great trial

was not to let my family know.

Because what could they do?

Except, you know,

just be scared shitless

that Jimmy was in trouble,

miles and miles away. They

couldn't do anything about it.

After shooting

began, Baldwin's attitude

started to change,

and he became less cooperative.

He did, however, agree to be

filmed in the Algerian quarter,

the Harlem of Paris.

I must say, the Algerians

were very nice to me

because they understood the city

and I did not.

I didn't know these streets.

And they protected me

in the streets.

And no-one else could.

The Algerian in France

is the nigger in America.

By now, Baldwin was saying

that he was no longer interested

in his work as a writer,

or his time in Paris.

He suddenly refused

to film sequences depicting

his present life here.

I'm not really back in Paris.

I'm not gonna stay here,

that I know.

Where do you think

we're sitting, in Paris,

next door to Washington?

My country runs the world,

owns the world.

As Mr Heath probably

will be glad to tell you.

I'm in a position in which

everyone in the world...

can claim me

and has the right to claim me.

I'm one of the very

few dark people in the

world...who have a voice.

That means something

which no white writer can mean

at this point

in the world's history,

and I can't really escape that.

I don't think I should even try.

By this time,

Baldwin was quite hostile to us

and had attracted a group

of Black American students

whom he wanted to accompany him

whenever he was filming.

One of them was particularly

dominant, and insisted,

with Baldwin's agreement,

that we filmed

at the Place de la Bastille,

symbol of the French Revolution.

Can you tell us

why we're here in this place?

Yes. People came out of those

streets, not very long ago,

to tear down this prison.

And my point is the prison

is still really here.

We build it all the time.

I'm speaking more about

my own country than

I'm speaking about France.

I represent, at this

moment, many political

prisoners in America.

That's why I wanted

to come here today.

Is that also why you...

I mean, you veered this film

off your literary work...

- What?

- You veered the film

off your literary work

and on to...

what you feel,

rather than what you write.

It isn't so much

what I feel, Terry,

it's what I know.

If my work is any good,

it will last.

I haven't got

to talk about that.

There's nothing

to be said about it.

But I do know

what is happening...now.

You know. I'm not so much

a writer as I'm a citizen.

And I've got to bear witness

to something which I know.

So, why won't you allow us

to project you through your work

instead of you as you...are?

I'm perfectly willing to, but I

don't see how you can do it.

You know?

Well, we had

a system, we had a scheme.

Yes.

And you obviously

weren't sympathetic to it.

That has nothing whatever to do

with something else,

which I represent

whether or not I like it.

I could be Bobby Seale.

I could be Angela Davis.

- But you couldn't.

- I could be Medgar Evers.

You couldn't,

because you...are a writer.

And that... What's the problem.

What are we doing wrong?

- Don't put any camera on me.

- What are we doing wrong?

You're telling me I'm doing...

Tell me.

- In the first place, you're not honest.

- - In what way?

All right.

I explained to you that we

wanted to do certain things

a certain way. Right?

- No, you didn't.

- Right.

We just talked about that

a few minutes ago...

- Explain it to me again.

- Right?

I told you that we were

gonna ask the brother

a question, right?

- Yeah.

Which we are.

- All right.

- And you agreed.

You didn't ask him.

- Yes, I did.

- Don't tell me your memory is that short.

- - I asked him.

Well, what was

the first question

you asked him?

You know

perfectly well,

I'm not getting into this.

- What was the first question

you asked?

- I asked him why he was here,

which is the question

we agreed to ask,

what the Bastille meant to him.

That wasn't the question

we agreed to ask him.

Yes, it was. All right,

tell me what it was and

I'll put it to him right now.

So, I told you to ask him, how

would he account for the fact

that the Bastille today

is still the most popular

monument in France?

- Right.

- Period.

That's not the same thing.

The question we've been

told to ask is why do you think

the Bastille is the most popular

monument in France today?

Well, it's not the most popular.

Then why I was told

to ask that question?

I mean, there is a significance

to this monument,

which I've asked you about.

Now, I've been challenged,

I've been criticised

and I've been told that I didn't

ask the question the right way.

So, how should I have asked it?

It's an honest question.

Terry,

I know what is happening here.

Well, what?

Tell us what's happening.

What is happening is that

he has something in his mind

and I have something

in my mind too...

which you don't quite see.

And now you're doing

something, you know,

rather against your will,

without quite

knowing what it is.

Look, I am not interested in

Jimmy Baldwin's Paris, right?

I'm not the least interested

in my 22 years in this city.

It's of no importance

at all, right?

What is important is I'm

a survivor of something

and a witness to something.

- That is what matters.

- Right.

And that is all that matters.

I'm not speaking for me.

I'm much too... I'm much

too proud, for one thing,

to speak for my own work.

My work will speak for itself,

or it won't.

But I am a Black man

in the middle of this century.

And I speak for that.

To all of you. The English, the

French, the Irish, all of you.

Because none of you know yet

who this dark stranger is.

None of you know it.

And that is what this quarrel

is really about.

I'm not at all

what you think I am.

I'm very different than that.

I have something else to do?

What exactly

do you think we think you are?

I think you think

that I'm an exotic survivor.

I don't know what Carl

was trying to say,

but I'm telling you this,

because he looks the way he

looks and for no other reason,

for no other reason,

he could be dead in the morning.

That isn't true of you,

any of you. It's true of him.

That is what

your civilization means

and that's what

you don't want to find out.

I've known boys like that all

my life. Half of them are dead.

Because they're Black.

So, now, you say that...

You say that and we could argue

that we do know that,

that we do know that

- and that's why we're here.

- Do you? Do you?

So, now how do you know

we don't know that?

Because of the way...

I know you don't know

because of the way

you talk to him.

I'm trying

to solicit something from him.

I'm trying to get him to

communicate with me in a

genuine way, which he isn't.

He's communicating with me

behind a barrier,

- which I don't...

- He has a life to lose,

you don't.

Yeah! And your books have

awakened us to that fact,

to the extent that we

wanted to come here

and make a film about it,

because that's our means

of communication.

All right, now we...

Okay. All right.

Now, we can start.

We had to get to this point,

before we get any further.

Well,

where do we go from here, then?

I would tell you, if I could,

I really would.

I know you would.

We would tell you if we could.

And you keep saying to me,

"You are making the movie,"

and I keep saying to you, "No,

we need you to make the movie."

That's what I'm trying

to tell you, is...

When they tore this prison down,

that was a great event

in European history.

And Europe understands that.

I am trying

to tear a prison down too.

That event doesn't yet occur,

in European imagination.

I am still, for Europe,

a savage.

When a white man

tears down a prison,

he is trying

to liberate himself.

When I tear down a prison,

I'm assumed to be turning

into another savage.

Because you don't understand...

that you, for me, my prison.

You are my warden.

I am battling you.

Not you, Terry.

But you, the English,

you, the French.

A whole way of life,

a whole system of thought...

which has kept me in prison

until this hour.

But why are we here?

You are trying to find out

and I'm telling you

what you don't know.

Do you want us to find out?

Yes! You'd better.

- You'd better.

- We have, as you say,

this complete lack

of communication

because we're, I'm attempting

to do something which you...

You seem like you already

know the answer.

And I'm trying to find

the answer and I'm trying

to show the answer.

I know. But I got to be able

to talk to somebody.

If you're gonna

get this movie done...

You've got

to talk to people, all right?

Is the mic on?

The talking,

with the students and others,

took place in the studio

of Beauford Delaney,

an old painter friend

of Baldwin's.

As the conversation progressed,

Baldwin's background as a

young Baptist preacher in Harlem

became very apparent.

All right, now,

Fay here's already told me

she hasn't read

any of James' books, right,

and I know that she's

only met him the other day.

So, I'm gonna ask her,

what does she think of him?

Being Black, I respected

him as a Black man,

especially as a Black writer,

and you're older than I am,

so I respected you, sort of

like I respect my parents.

And you've achieved

in the world.

Um...

You've gotten up... You've

made your name made to the...

You've made your name

known to the world.

Because I'm young.

I'm only 20 years old.

And you're so, like,

inspiration to young

Black people in America.

The first time I had

the opportunity of

reading your book,

Another Country, I believe,

this was quite some time ago,

but that was the first book

I ever read from cover to cover

and I haven't read another since

and, uh...

Really, and I still remember

the characters and everything.

And this is really

did a lot for me.

I know that, from my own point

of view, you know, it was...

it was, in a sense,

all for you. You know?

I mean, I know that I love you.

But...

you haven't necessarily

got to know that.

You know?

I suppose I never thought

that I would, um...

live...

to hear you say

that you love me.

That sounds very corny, but...

But you know what I mean.

In his essays,

if you've read them,

Jimmy does talk

about coming to Paris.

Is it possible for you to

talk to him about why you

individually left the States

and compare it

with why he left the States?

It ain't nobody else's business.

- Well, I'll tell you why.

- All right.

Because it's not relevant

to anyone but us.

It doesn't help anyone

or it doesn't hurt anyone.

We can talk about it,

but, like, we don't want

to talk to you about it.

I can

tell you something about it.

- Yes?

- Right.

The 20 years,

22 years from 1948 and 1971.

And speaking, you know,

speaking now as Jimmy, you know,

and speaking as a Black American

who was, you know,

who was once as young

as these children are now,

and why I left my country,

I left it because I knew

I was gonna be murdered there.

And I when I say that,

I'm not, you know, exaggerating,

that's not

a melodramatic statement.

I mean, that means that...

I mean that I could

not have hoped to live

if I had stayed there.

I come from a country

which is very proud

of calling itself a democracy

and is very proud

of what it calls progress.

And I'm pointing out to you...

that, 22 years later...

boys and girls

just like I was then...

in spite of all that democracy

and all that progress,

had to leave the country,

our country, for the same

reason that I left it.

1948, it was Truman

in the White House, right?

He'd just dropped

the bomb on Hiroshima.

And, in 1971,

there's who in the White House?

Dick Nixon.

Richard Milhous.

What do they expect from us?

- The darker brother?

- Right on, right on, right on.

I've had a hard life. You know?

Right on.

But, my dear...

No, really, I know it sounds

a terrible thing to say...

I would not be

a white American...

for all the tea in China.

All the oil in Texas.

I really wouldn't like

to have to live...

with all those lies.

Yeah.

This is what is irreducible

and awful.

You, the English, you,

the French, you, the West,

you, the Christians.

You can't help but feel

that there is something

that you can do for me.

That you can save me.

And you don't yet know...

that I have endured

your salvations so long,

I cannot afford it any more.

Not another moment

of your salvation.

But I'm not saying it's...

And that I...

I... I...

I can save you.

I know something about you.

Right on.

Tell him. Give it to him!

I know something about you.

You don't know

anything about me.

- Amen.

- Right on.

And that is where it really is.

You could find out like this.

It's a matter almost of a

division of - how can I put it?

- Division of labor.

- Division of labor, thank you.

He can do some things

that you can't do.

You can do some things

that he can't do.

I can do some things

that neither of you can do.

You know, I know I can't drive

a truck. And I can't run a bank.

- And I can't count.

- Right on.

You know. And I can't...

I can't lead a movement.

But I can fuck up your mind.

He can straighten up

your mind too.

What's gonna happen,

sooner or later, all the

wretched of the earth...

in one way or another...

next Tuesday

or next Wednesday...

will destroy the cobblestones

on which London

and Rome and Paris are built.

The world will change,

because it has to change.

And the Pope will die...

because the church

is a criminal church.

The party is over.

That is what is going to happen.

- Right on.

- Right on.

It was only

after this group witness

that Baldwin finally agreed

to talk personally

about his difficult position

as a political figure

and a creative writer.

After all, no-one asked me

to be a writer.

You know, I asked for it.

So, you know, I can't,

I can't really complain.

You know,

it comes with the territory.

I was born a certain time,

in a certain skin,

in a certain place.

And you pay for it.

Everybody pays for...that.

Do you think

you could describe yourself

as a revolutionary writer?

I don't know what I am.

I'm a writer in a

revolutionary situation.

I never thought of becoming

a revolutionary, after all.

You express your ideas

in terms of mental

transformation on the

part of white people.

How much do you think

your fictional work

is therefore stronger

than your essays?

In that they are

more subversive.

It's a leading question, and

it's impossible for anybody...

You know, I can't answer that.

I write the essays,

I write the books,

and what you make of them is...

What people make of those things

isn't up to me.

I know that, in principle...

um...

a play or a novel, if it works,

is much more dangerous,

for the writer and the reader.

It's much easier

to dismiss The Fire Next Time

as an argument with

which one can agree or

disagree, like a debate,

Whereas, in another country,

you're faced with some

very real human situations

with which no-one can not

identify in some way or another.

It depends on many things.

Many people can fail to

identify with the people

in another country.

In fact, they do.

You know, I mean,

in life, I mean, I'm not

talking about my book.

But, I mean,

everybody's been in love...

Has everyone been in love?

Everyone's had a love

which has been threatened,

don't you think that so?

Not on the basis

of the evidence.

If they have,

they've forgotten it.

You can't prove it by me,

that everyone's been in love.

If everyone had been

in love, they'd treat

their children differently.

They'd treat

each other differently.

Yes, well, perhaps

that is one of the points

in Another Country,

which, it seems to me,

is as much about love

as about anything else.

- It is about love.

- It's more...

It's about

the price of love, too.

Which is the price of life.

Yes. People don't

seem to realize that.

In a literal sense,

you're writing for white people.

Are you aware of that?

I'm writing for people, baby.

I don't believe in white people.

I don't believe in Black people

either, for that matter.

But I know the difference

between being Black

and white at this time.

It means that I cannot fool

myself about some things

that I could fool myself about,

if I were white.

But more white

people read your novels,

I believe, than Black people.

Well, Black people may not

read them, but they steal them.

They sell them,

they're hot, in bars.

You do spend a long time between novels.

Why is that?

Well, I'm that kind of writer.

There's no answer to that.

You know, some people write...

I wish I was Georges Simenon,

he can write them in two weeks,

but I can't.

And, you know, everybody works

the way he can work.

I must point out, though, too,

that I have been working,

the last few years,

between assassinations.

And that doesn't make it

any easier either.

I mean,

they're killing my friends.

It's as simple as that.

And have been all the years

I've been alive.

For no reasons which, you know,

which have any validity.

Why didn't you

just want to get away somewhere

and sit down and write

your books? Why don't

you want to do that?

Because I'm better than that.

But you don't

have to be better than that.

Oh, I do.

So, you don't agree, then,

I mean, when people say,

"Oh, it's okay for him.

"He's escaped"?

What have I escaped?

Where, anyway,

would I go to escape?

To your country?

Would I get a

political asylum here?

Where would

a fleeing Black man go...

if he wanted to escape?

There may not be, you know,

as much humanity in the world

as one would like to see,

but there is some.

There's more

than one would think.

In any case, if you...

if you break faith

with what you know...

that's a betrayal of many,

many, many, many people.

I may know six people,

but that's enough.

Love has never been

a popular movement

and no-one's ever wanted

really to be free.

The world is held together,

really it is, held together,

by the love and the passion

of a very few people.

Otherwise,

of course you can despair.

Walk down the street of

any city, any afternoon,

and look around you.

What you've got to

remember is what you're

looking at is also you.

Everyone you're

looking at is also you.

You could be that person.

You could be that monster,

you could be that cop.

And you have to decide,

in yourself, not to be.

The logic of despair isn't

for me. Cut your throat, right?

But there's something wrong,

you know,

with someone who says he's

in despair who keeps on writing.

Because a despairing

man doesn't write.

Anyway, it's too easy,

it's too fashionable.

I'm aware, you know,

that I and the people I love

may perish in the morning.

I know that. But there's

light on our faces now.

If you live under the

shadow of death, it gives

you a certain freedom.

I'm perfectly happy, odd as

it sounds, and relatively free.