Hold Your Fire (2021) - full transcript

[projector clicking]

[7]

[7]

[man] I had a bad
feeling about it.

My wife did. She didn't even
know what we was gonna do.

She begged me not to
leave the house that day.

Got in front of me at the
door, pullin' on me, crying.

I said, "I'll be right back."

That was my last warning.

[traffic noise]

[man 2] Wintertime. January.



A very cold Friday night.

Two guys walk
over to the counter,

ask me to pick up something
from the bottom shelf,

I don't remember what it was.

I picked it up and
when I stood up,

the guy had a...

.25 automatic pointed at me.

Right on the gun
counter there was

a picture of my daughter
receiving her communion.

I says, "Take it easy,

I want to get home to
see my family tonight."

The little guy had a handgun.

I'm lookin' at the gun
and I'm sayin' to myself

that I thought it
was a pellet gun.



Then he pulls the
trigger and, bang, into--

and into the shelf.

I swore to myself
at that point there

that if I get a chance to
kill ya, I'm gonna kill ya.

-[indistinct chatter]
-[sirens wailing]

[man on bullhorn] Come
out with your hands up!

[sirens wailing]

[gunshots]

[man on radio] Okay, hold it!

[man] Get outta here quick!

[gunshot]

[7]

[reporter] A story of violence

inside a sporting
goods store in Brooklyn.

Four terrorists had been
surprised inside the store

on Friday afternoon

when police arrived in
response to a robbery alarm.

[man] It was a store
with outdoors equipment

the usual camping stuff,

and then the guns.

The guns are what
it was really all about.

They were people
who wanted them,

and they took innocent
people inside the store

and made hostages of them.

[7]

[man] Holy crap.

Twelve hostages inside
a sporting goods store

loaded with firearms.

This was the Titanic.

The moon landing.

I'm never gonna
forget the siege.

It's permanently etched
in your-- in your heart

and in your soul.

The lessons learned of this case

were so revolutionary
for law enforcement.

Out of this tragedy, amazingly,

this is the birthplace
of hostage negotiation.

[man] It's scary.

So cops usually
wind up overreacting.

Police want to be macho.

Lob in the gas and
storm the place.

"Kill 'em all!
They're all evil."

No. I believe in talking.

Everything is
resolvable by talking.

[Jerry Riccio] The leader,
he wanted five shotguns.

They gave me a duffel bag.

12-guage ammo in
the bag, I'm filling it up,

filling it up and filling up.

And I turned around,
I said to him, I says,

"Can I ask you a question now?
Who's gonna carry this bag?"

Couldn't even drag it.

He says, "You
just keep filling it."

I filled it up, the guy
grabbed it by the handle.

Can't move it.

You're not too smart.

[7]

The only thing that stopped
them from gettin' out is

someone outside called the cops.

There was a cop
lookin' in the doorway.

When he seen the rifles,

the guys eyeballs,
I'll never forget it.

[man] "Call for backup.

"Patrol units responding.

"Call on walkie-talkie.

N-[bleep] with a gun.”

This had to be
terrifying for her

to have to go through
something like that.

For my mother to
hear the cop say that.

To fear the cops.

She probably didn't even know

guns was in that building.

She wouldn't have gone in there.

My dad needed a wallet.

John & Al is right when
you come off the train.

My mother paid for it.

Few more seconds,

my mother would have
walked out that door.

The gunmen locked the
door right in front of her face.

That's what it was.

A wallet.

So we had white police
officers, mostly, uh,

on the inner perimeter.

So that might have been
some considerations as well.

We thought we had four members
of the Black Liberation Army

inside the store.

It was a very radical group,

very violent and
dangerous group.

Many police officer
assassinations under their belt.

Emotions are running high.

[man] The BLA was
ambushing the police officers.

You had a blue uniform
on, you were a target.

I was a rookie.

I remember like
it was yesterday.

You're dealing with
lowlifes that don't care.

They hate the police.

No.

They didn't know who we were.

I don't dislike police.

They thought all this
crazy stuff about us.

They thought we were
black revolutionaries.

We were not.

I worked for the Transit,
selling tokens in the booth.

Dawud is a college
student, outstanding artist.

Salih is a TV and
radio repairman.

Mussidiq is a carpenter.

We're not unemployed,
dope fiends,

and thieves and crooks.

We're squares.

I was terrified.

I was like an
understudy to Shu'aib.

You know, he was like
my mentor at the time.

You know.

He was living on
his own, you know, I--

With his wife, you know,
I was still with my mother,

using his situation as
an example to follow.

On the way there, I was
hoping somebody would,

like, just say, okay, like...

maybe we should, like, just
scrap this and like, but, uh--

I didn't-- I couldn't come
up with any, you know,

alternative solution,

so I just, more or less,
went along with it, you know?

[7]

A lot of regrets.

I observed one police
officer in front of the store.

You don't need to take
it any further, you know,

they're-- they're
here, you know,

we-- we're through.

You know, we should have
surrendered at that time,

but, uh...

my co-defendants tried to
make an exit from the store.

That's when things went haywire.

[Shu'aib Raheem] We
made that fateful decision.

To get these guns.
To protect our families.

In retrospect, it
was a fool's idea

to think we can get
out the back door.

[door opening]

We opened the door.

[indistinct shouting]

There were cops everywhere.

[indistinct shouting]

Super hyper. Payin'
attention to everybody.

Lookin' there, lookin' there.

Who's the good guy?
Who's the bad guy?

Who do you trust?

How you gonna say,
"Drop the weapon,”

but when you go to
drop it, they tell you,

"Don't move. Freeze.
Drop the weapon.

Don't move. Freeze.
Hand me the gun.”

You know, I mean--
What do you do?

I'm ready to surrender.
You won't let me surrender.

That was how we
perceived the situation.

I'm trying to comply,

passing off my
rifle to this detective.

The other officers
interpreted it as a threat

because they told
me not to move.

That's what led to
them firing the first shot.

Does it matter who fired first?

There are some people

that need a damn beating.

You know why?
You can't talk to ‘em.

You talk til you're
blue in the face.

They want a
physical confrontation.

That's what they want.

And that's their mentality.

And a guy like that
needs his ass kicked.

New York City's always
had a hard, ugly relationship

between the police
and the people--

community of color.

All my life, police was
killing black people.

I know-- I know for a fact...

that cops aren't racist.

Yet, there was this perception

that cops are gonna
brutalize Blacks.

The police were
seen as oppressors.

Corrupt.

Brutal.

[Jack Cambria] The police
officer's stress is elevated

‘cause you're always on.

When emotional levels
are up in-- in a person,

then their rationality
level is down.

It's kinda like
that angle effect.

Emotion. Rationality.

Police officers become,
sometimes, judge, jury,

and, uh, sometimes when
the circumstances, uh,

you know, present themselves,

executioner.

There's this whiteness
on the police department,

not properly trained,

fearful of being
in neighborhoods

that they're not
accustomed to being in.

And so, in that
sporting goods store,

when they see a black
man in a doorway...

emotions take over.

[gunshots]

[Jerry Riccio] The cops' bullets
are pockmarking against the building

and I'm sayin', "Oh,
my God, oh, my God,"

like I-- I gotta get hit.

From where they were
shooting, it wasn't...

less than 15 feet.

[gunshots]

When one guy starts
shootin', they all start shootin'.

You're nuts.

Firing away like crazy.

And the little guy
pulls me back,

he steps up and fires.

You could feel the
heat against my ribs.

-[gunshot]
-[traffic noise]

[tires squealing]

[siren wailing]

I reached out and
pulled the door in.

It was a miracle I wasn't hit.

Mussidiq was just
standing there in shock.

I lifted his shirt up.

My hand was covered with blood.

Stomach wound,
there's nothin' you can do.

If he didn't get attention,
he was gonna die.

[gunshots]

[indistinct shouting]

[gunshots]

Bullets was flyin'
all over the store.

All over the store.

The police knew there
were hostages in there

and they-- and they, uh--

they elevated their fire to
above the hostages' heads.

No.

They-- That's the first thing

one of the officers
said afterwards.

"Well, we were shooting high."

I says, "You can tell
that to somebody else,

you can't tell it to me."

The cops know there's customers,

and you're shooting
into the store.

What are they, crazy?

Here's my head. Here's
where the bullet was hitting.

The police department
won't admit to

a lot of things that they did.

I was with Steve Gilroy.
He was my partner that night.

He was a great guy to be with.

He was behind the L pillar.

[gunshots]

I looked over, I saw
Steve laying on the ground.

[gunshots continue]

He was hit in the back of his
head, which opened up his skull.

I saw part of his brain
separate from his head.

[crackling]

[clock ticking]

[Al Sheppard] You grieve for the
guy that gets killed or hurt, God forbid.

And then you want to go
fuck somebody up over it.

The bad guy.

[indistinct chatter]

Anybody in the ghetto
knows, if you shoot a cop,

they're gonna get you.

[police radio chatter]

[sirens wailing]

[Shu'aib Raheem]
Salih found the radio...

and turned it on.

We were all listening to it.

And they said, "We have four
members of the Black Liberation Army

surrounded inside a store.”

Oh, S-H-I-T, that's what.

Oh, crap!

[indistinct radio transmission]

I know how they were thinkin'.

They wanted blood.

I was petrified.

But I was gonna experience
something much worse than that.

[static]

We heard it on the radio
that we had inside the store.

[radio announcer] ABC
News, Brooklyn, New York.

What happened
here was a tragedy.

One gunman was wounded,
apparently seriously.

One policeman was killed.

It was a stunned
silence at first.

Then it was...

shock.

Everything changed.

We didn't even know
a cop was even killed.

If you are responsible
for a chain of events

that culminated in the loss
of life of a human being,

there's no way
to replace that life.

I'ma have to carry this sin.

Man, I cried like a
baby in the bathroom.

After he shot him,

I think he said,
"I killed that pig.

"I-- I offed that pig.

If he sticks his head out again,
I'm gonna-- I'm gonna kill him."

And stuck his
head out, shot him.

"I got that pig,
I killed that pig.

Shot him in the head.”

[Shu'aib Raheem]
That was never said.

I was talking about
a different officer

who shot at me.

I said, "Man, there's this
guy across the street, man,

hold up, man, you know, I-- Pew!

And he took off and ran.

[exhales]

Well, that comment, "I gotta-- I'm
gonna get this guy behind the pole,"

is what they tried to say
that the comment was made

when Mr. Gilroy was killed.

I still don't know
how he got hit.

We were hunkered down.

The van blocked that
whole line of sight.

I can only imagine
it was some type of

ricochet or whatever.
Friendly fire.

I didn't have the
right angle to see him.

I could on see the
bar called the Oasis.

The cops were shooting
all over the place.

[Shu'aib Raheem] He was
shot in the side of the head.

Where'd that shot come from?

I don't know...

[sighs]

...what happened.

It don't really matter.

At the end of the day...

really, it doesn't matter.

Because none of that
would have happened

if we hadn't been there.

[7]

[Al Baker] It's
losing a brother.

It takes a piece of you.

We're always criticized
for the thin blue line,

or the "us and them,”

alienation that others
have towards cops.

You really hate to
discriminate against people

because their not cops,

but you know in
your heart of hearts,

deep down where you live,

they don't get it.

[7]

You know he's dead now.

You think of yourself,
you think of your family,

you think of his family.

Goes through so fast.

But you know it's over.

It's almost like the
end of the world to you.

[Brian Tuohy] You could
have had breakfast with him,

and all of a sudden, he's gone.

Why am I here today?

It could have been me,
but I can't think like that.

Nobody ever said,
"How-- How are you doin'?"

or anything. No.

Today, I would be in a
hospital for a week or so

being talked to.

But yeah, nothing-- nobody
even spoke to me at all

about what happened.

[7]

[Al Sheppard] The psychological
dangers are much worse than the physical.

It will kill you. Eat you up.

A lot of cops have
PTSD, alcoholism.

There's so many people I
knew that committed suicide.

[Gerald Lefcourt] The head
of the intelligence unit said

there's as much as 10
percent of the police force

that are emotionally unstable.

Which was a shocking thing

for a leader in the
police department to say.

[Jack Cambria] There's a
stigma for many police officers

to come forward because
of that strong macho image

that we are expected to portray.

It's a humiliation.

So they would
rather just keep their--

their emotional issues internal,

and we know what
happens with that.

[indistinct chatter]

[man on bullhorn]

[Shu'aib Raheem] Police were
telling us everything was all right,

no one was hurt.

Lying to us.

Trying to lull us to sleep.

They were gonna kill us
when we walked out the door.

Don't lie. Don't lie.

Crazy people
aren't always stupid.

He knows when
you're full of crap.

Now the trust is gone.

[7]

[Jerry Riccio] By that time,
you had another 500 cops.

Angry? Yeah.

If the cops were to burst in,

who are they
gonna be shootin' at?

They wouldn't know where we are.

There was no cop negotiating
comin' up close to the store,

"Look, we'll give you
this, we'll do this for you.”

We're all gonna die.

We're gonna shoot it out.

The hostages were
all sittin' in there.

Every time the guy fired a shot,

the black girl named Fonnie
would jump out of her skin.

[stammering] The-- The bang,
the bang, the bang, the bang.

And she would--

Tears were goin'. Like
everybody was cryin'.

I was young, I was 16 years old.

I went into shock from
what I just witnessed.

Gunshots, the glass breaking.

Um...

people, you know--

Yeah, the sounds of gunshots,

uh, people, um,
screaming in the store,

you know, we were-- we
were-- we were screaming and...

the gunman who was injured
was holding his abdomen,

moaning in pain.

His clothes were soaked through.

He was bleeding out.

[Jerry Riccio] The leader
comes over to me and says,

"My man that's hit is in pain.

Give me a rag."

[water running]

They go in the
bathroom, I wet the rag,

and I'm about to put
the rag on the wound,

the little guy picks up the
gun and puts it to my head,

stuck it underneath and...

I went as high as I could.

It doesn't take much for
those triggers to go off.

Your head's gone.

[7]

I'm tryin' to help ya.

And you're gonna
put a gun to my head?

What kind of a person are you?

He was very impulsive.

Scary at times.

Mussidiq.

A loose canon.

We was concerned
about him exploding.

[Jack Cambria] When you
get to the scene as a negotiator,

they're handing off the
bomb that's already--

the fuse is already lit,

so we have to kind
of try to defuse that.

We have an ever
evolving approach

because we learn from mistakes.

Prior to 1973, we'd
give the hostage taker

a set amount of
time to surrender,

and if they did not,

they would be met
with tactical force.

Guns.

[7]

The first hostage
negotiation team in the world

was formulated here in the NYPD

based on a series of events.

The first one was the Attica
Prison riots back in 1971.

[Gerald Lefcourt] Such
oppressive conditions.

There's no question,

there's terrible racism in
the criminal justice system.

Rather than trying
to resolve the crisis

or take down the tensions,

it's about winning
and knockout punches.

It's about destroying
your enemy.

That was Attica.

[man]

[men]

[7]

[Jack Cambria] The highest
authorities, all they do is tactics.

And when every
problem is a nail,

then every solution
has to be a hammer.

We're not gonna negotiate.

We're gonna go
through that door.

[whirring]

[7]

[gunfire]

-[indistinct shouting]
-[clamoring]

[Jack Cambria] It
was a bloodbath.

Forty-three
individuals were killed.

Let's learn from
those past mistakes.

Maybe we shouldn't
do that again.

It didn't work the last time.

One year later, there was

the Dog Day
Afternoon bank robbery.

[cheering]

Messy, unorganized.
Very dangerous.

It was negotiated from the cuff.

There was no theory
behind it. It was just, uh,

"Hey, come on out." "No."

"Come on out."

"No."

[no audible dialog]

Then, in September of 1972,

there was the Munich Olympics.

Palestinian guerrillas took
Israeli athletes hostage.

Eleven Israeli athletes
and coaches were killed.

Tragedy.

We have to do something.

This could very well happen
here in New York City.

[birds chirping]

[woman] Hostage negotiation
was a world problem

that had come
under the microscope

for the NYPD.

And they were
saying, "Here, go fix it."

[Al Baker] Harvey
didn't look like a cop,

he didn't act like a cop.

The least ever macho
dude, the least violent.

He was seen as fruity.

Not a back-slapper,
"let's go for a beer” guy.

Pretty socially incompetent.

Academic, quirky.

Always using a funny story.

He has the Jewish
sense of humor.

He's the consummate Jew.

He was a genius, oddball,
psychobabble kind of guy.

[Harvey Schlossberg] Distrust.

They were checking on my
advice to make sure it was okay.

Remember, this was all new.

This was all relatively
new at the time.

I was comin' up with a
whole bunch of theories.

All the pressures,

and all the anxieties
that we talk about

which affect the criminal

also affect the cop on the
scene the same exact way.

We have to reduce the anxiety

to get him out of
that panic state.

[clock ticking]

[siren wailing]

[indistinct chatter]

Nobody is certain
of what will happen

in this kind of situation.

Uh, I must say...

[Al Baker] When Police
Commissioner Murphy

got to the scene
that Friday night,

there was a dead cop
two other cops shot.

The question is, "Can we stop
them from killing the hostages?"

[Harvey Schlossberg] I was in
a different room than they were.

A half a block away.
A cleaning store.

I was in the room where
you sweat and think,

"What the heck is
gonna happen next?"

[Jack Cambria]
Harvey was a traffic cop.

but he had his
PhD in psychology.

He was called out to the scene.

Inside of a sporting goods
store there's butane, ammunition.

The chief wanted to throw
tear gas inside of the store,

but Harvey had to, you
know, convince him that

that would not be
the best approach.

You could start a fire
with all that ammunition,

blow up the entire neighborhood.

The police are really worried.

They get angrier.

"Come out with your
hands up or else."

It was the old Wild West.

If you get an open
target, just shoot them.

I told the commissioner,
"You get words going,

then you can calm 'em down."

Hostage negotiating?

Wh-- What are you talkin' about?

We don't-- We don't
negotiate with criminals.

A cop became a
cop for law and order.

Victory.

This is not the time for
a Harvey Schlossberg.

This is a time for surprise,

violence of action,

direct lethal force.

[Al Sheppard] Hear this
rumbling coming down Broadway.

It's like a dinosaur
rumbling down the street.

Bum-bum-bum-bum-bum-
bum-bum-bum-bum.

And I'm goin', "What
the fuck is that?

Is that what I think it is?"

[rumbling]

[Shu'aib Raheem] Oh, Lord.

Did anyone committing

what we thought
was a small robbery

ever anticipate

confronting a t-- [chuckles]

a tank?

[rumbling]

They were telling us
that if we didn't come out,

they was gonna drive the
tank right inside the store.

[Harvey Schlossberg]
Oh, no, no, no, no,

that's the worst
thing you can do.

An ultimatum is trying to
frighten them into surrendering,

and most people in
a situation like that

don't get frightened.

-[gunshots]
-That just angers them.

They may go off the deep end.

[gunshots]

[Al Baker] The bad guys, they're
bouncin' rounds off the tank.

Four guys who just killed a cop
and have 12 people at gunpoint

in a-- in an ammunition-filled
environment,

and you're gonna-- you're
gonna play hardball with them?

I don't think so.

[indistinct chatter]

[police radio chatter]

[man on radio] It's
2:54 in Midtown.

I'm Drew Scott, WXLO News,

with the top
stories of the hour.

A standoff continues
on the shivering streets

of the Williamsburg
section of Brooklyn

between the cops and robbers
of that sporting goods store.

[7]

[Jerry Riccio] The
leader comes over to me.

I says, "Want a cup of coffee?"

He says, "You'd make
me a cup of coffee?

I'm holding you hostage."

I says, "Well, if you
look out the door,

got about 5,000 guys
holdin' you hostage."

And he says, "I'll
have a cup of coffee.”

If he was a
customer in the store,

he would have been
a decent character.

I spoke to them straight out.

No neighborhood type
conversation like, you know, like,

"Hey, bro! You're
doin'--" None of that.

Nobody wants to hear that shit.

I talked to him like I was
talkin' to another person.

Not my bro.

He wasn't my bro.

We're all in a mess down here.

Everybody's cryin',
everybody's separated.

I says, "If you want
to keep an eye on us,

take us upstairs to the
Boy Scout department.”

We all go upstairs, no
one knows what I have.

I got a 9mm Smith & Wesson.

Gun's in the desk.

In the dark, I take my keys out.

[mimics coughing]
Cough a little bit, turn it.

[mimics coughing]

Now I got the loaded 9mm.

Who do I shoot first?

The leader.

He would have been the guy

that might have been
able to do something.

The number three guy second.

The quiet guy,
leave him to last,

because if he seen
his friends goin' down,

he would turn to mush.

[Al Baker] It's an
explosive situation.

We want to control
that perimeter.

They had the barricades up,

but people are out there
yelling and screaming.

[crowd noise]

[7]

[Brian Tuohy] "Shortly after
midnight, a melee breaks out.

"between police and
a group of 40 youths.

"At least one cop
seen clubbing youths.

Three teenagers arrested,
one bleeding profusely.”

"These are revolutionary
brothers in there, man.

Power to the people," you
know, "Yeah, man, yeah!"

♪ War... ♪

♪ Is coming ♪

J.T

♪ Can feel it in the air ♪

[Shu'aib Raheem] Every time
they heard a shot from the store,

they were cheering.

‘Cause we stood
up to the police.

[7]

♪ Preachers are preachin' ♪

[Al Baker] As a commander,
you're gonna have to factor in

the crowd reaction
if we make entry.

If suspects die,

this thing is gonna end in a
fire and brimstone manner.

It's a complete powder keg.

Now what do you do?

Do anything you can
to make a conversation.

You must get them to talk.

But they have a problem.

They ripped the phone wires out.

There's no way to talk.

[Shu'aib Raheem] They told us
to communicate by flashing lights.

Hit once for "no"
and two for "yes."

Are there people
inside the store?

Bang, bang. Yes.

Are any of your people hurt
and need medical attention?

Yes.

They asked us
to release one girl.

We asked Fonnie Buckner.

[Alice Buckner] My
mother loved to laugh.

Vibrant. Full of life.

Get out there, take her
classes, go to work every day.

I was shocked when she
started buying skirts and dresses.

I'm like, , 8 v "Mom,
what's goin' on?

She's like, "Got a promotion."

Mm-hm.

For New York Life.
She loved that job.

And they were promoting her.

Until this happened to her.

And once this happened,

it was like...

she went into a shell...

[Rosemary Catalano] We
were behind the cabinet

in the Boy Scout area.

I felt for her,

so I kind of took on the
role to try and keep her calm.

She was crying and shaking

and just could not...

uh, just could not
compose herself.

She was the most afraid.

So just tri-- tried
to get her to go.

She refused to go out.

She didn't trust the police.

She wanted to stay with us.

[7]

[man]

[Shu'aib Raheem]
That's when we sent out

one of the people in the store.

Goin' through my mind inside,

man, I've done everything I can

to try to talk to
you people, man,

come on, man.

Shit's f-ed up, you know?

Give us a chance
to surrender, man.

[clock ticking]

I'm Drew Scott, WXLO News,

with the top
stories of the hour.

The stand off continues
between the cops and robbers

at that sporting goods store.

[indistinct chatter]

[Harvey Schlossberg] A think tank
was formed at the police headquarters

Different agencies.

I was there.

Police tend to be conservative.

Nobody wanted change.

They all believed if you
gave me the right gun

with the right bullet, I
can put everybody out.

But I don't think
it works that easy.

That's a Hollywood thing.

[Jack Cambria] Must have
been the hardest thing for Harvey

to change an
ingrained belief system.

These staunch critics.

"Now we're gonna talk?

"To these individuals?

We're not social workers."

The most difficult thing in the
world to change is a culture.

[indistinct dialog]

[Al Baker] You take
your Pat Murphy.

Notorious book guy.

Liberal, progressive
police commissioner.

Are you following his
orders? Absolutely.

Do you respect him? No.

Very grateful for that.

[Al Baker] He was hated.
He was a bookworm.

Not a warrior from the ranks.

[Al Sheppard] He
was a pantywaist.

He had no balls.

All prim and proper.

He's puckering his ass

‘cause if something
goes down wrong,

he's gonna be holding the bag.

[Harvey Schlossberg] I didn't think
they would change their attitude.

I truly believe the only
reason they called me

was because they realized
someone has to be responsible.

If it goes bad,

they're gonna blame Harvey.

But I believed police could
actually influence people,

and get them to do things

without bullying and
force and threats.

I told 'em what I thought.

[Jack Cambria] The
commissioner agreed with him.

We're not a team of assassins.

Harvey succeeded.

[Al Baker] Commissioner
Murphy made that decision,

establishing hostage
negotiation as the way forward.

[man] Commissioner, can you
tell us the sequence of events?

I think Deputy Commissioner
Ward, who was closest to that,

could say a word about it.

[indistinct chatter]

All right, the
strategy at all times

was to open lines
of communication

with the people on the inside.

I was in the armored
personnel carrier.

[Toni Schlossberg] Ben
Ward heard Harvey's trainings

He would say, "If Harvey
says to do it the way,

this is what we're going to do.

Harvey would be there to coach.

He would not be
the guy on the phone.

He would guide
what was happening.

[indistinct chatter]

[police radio chatter]

[phone ringing]

I was home with a young baby.

Ben Ward called,

asked would I come
out to Brooklyn.

I was floored the
police wanted me,

their enemy, to help.

I'm a lawyer for people
who are fighting the state.

I had just finished
the Panther 21 case,

which had as a main allegation
blowing up police precincts.

It was a shock.

But then again, Ben
Ward was different.

A black man in the middle
of all of this race conflict,

and he had an
understanding of us.

the Panthers.

I always had a
fond feeling for him.

And I think it was mutual.

[indistinct shouting]

[Al Baker] Lefcourt was hated.

He was a radical lawyer.

Enemy of the police.

Why are we kowtowing
to these people?

[Al Sheppard] Friggin' outraged.

Allowing the attorney to
come in and kiss their ass,

and "I'm gonna
represent you," you know,

and-- and everything's
gonna be hunky-dory,

this'll be okay.

[Gerald Lefcourt] They
asked whether we could

get them to pick
up a walkie-talkie.

[indistinct radio chatter]

[man] Easy. Easy. Easy.

[man on bullhorn]

[gunshots]

-[man] Okay--
-[gunshots]

[gunshots continue]

Now they want to talk.

They puttin' these strange
people on the speaker.

We weren't in a speakin' mood
because they were in a tank.

I could not believe I
was being fired upon.

[Gerald Lefcourt] Nothing.

[indistinct chatter]

[7]

When I went outside
to get the walkie-talkie,

I see more cops than
I've ever seen in my life.

I see people all
on the side streets.

[indistinct chatter]

As soon as I walked
out the door I knew,

I could have waltzed
out of the store.

Escaped.

I thought about it.

I got a family.

Wife.

I thought about my daughter.

It's hard to figure.

Especially if you ran
away and people got killed.

Then you gotta live
with that afterwards.

They said, "Everybody except
for Rosemary was a minority."

I says, "No, no, no, no.

"What everybody in this
store was was a human being.

I'm not abandoning
a human being."

[Shu'aib Raheem] The
walkie-talkie was broken.

I guess them
throwing it broke it.

And we threw it back out.

[man on radio] Everybody
stand pat. Everybody stand pat.

Whatever devices we brought in,

whatever convincing we
tried to do to get them to talk,

none of it was productive.

I don't think we had any
idea who these guys were.

Why they were in there.

[7]

[Shu'aib Raheem] Growing up
here in Brownsville, in Brooklyn,

I remember eating ketchup
sandwiches and drinking sugar water.

We were struggling.

There were five kids in the
house with Mom and Dad.

You got a lot of table pimps.

We call 'em crumb snatchers,
we were all crumb snatchers.

So there was all-- We
was always hungry.

Your first love is Mom.

She was like a
mentor, a teacher.

My father was my hero.

I wanted to be just like him.

And then one day I discovered
that he was not my father.

Just...

sent my self-esteem
into a tailspin.

Began even doubting that
my mom was even my mom.

I said, "What other
lies have y'all told me?

Who am I?

Trust is a big, big thing.

I would have these
nightmares about falling.

I was searching. Oh, my
God, I was searching for

some sense in the world.

I started drinking when I
was about 11 years old.

My 16th birthday, I
drank myself into a coma.

I had...

actually contemplated
suicide before then

because my life was--
had bottomed out.

I was, uh, lost.

For somebody to take hostages,

they're in either psychological
or emotional pain.

I'm absolutely curious
about who the gunman is,

and I'm starting to look
for those kind of clues.

I'm there to listen
and empathize.

I'm his little Jiminy Cricket.

I'm his little conscience.

[Shu'aib Raheem] I
started reading the Koran.

When I took my shahada
with the Sunni community,

I cried tears of joy.

Like looking for
a long lost friend,

and finally meeting him.

Oh, God, there you are.

It made me feel relieved.

Free.

Sane.

For the first time in my life.

Life had meaning.
The world had meaning.

♪ Yeah, yeah, yeah ♪

♪ Yeah ♪

Soon, my life was in
danger because of my faith.

The Nation of Islam.

We were deadly enemies.

♪ Don't mess with people ♪

There's nothing Islamic
about The Nation.

♪ Those other folks
stand and chant... ♪

They believe that
the Black Man is from

the Lost and Found
Nation of Shabazz,

the white man is the devil.

♪ Ain't no lie ♪

This invented mythology.

♪ Yeah ♪

They believe every single word,

and some of them
would kill for it.

Any time you
question their claims,

you are met with threats.

We was having
confrontations all over the city.

Assaults,

firebombing in the
mosque up in Harlem.

One of them tried
to proselytize me.

I say, "You say the
white man is the devil?"

"That's right, Black man."

I said, "But the man
who you worship as Allah,

"his name is Wallace
Fard Mohammed.

"He's a white man.

"And if the white
man is the devil,

that means you're
a devil-worshiper."

Oh, man, he got furious.

"They'll cut out your
tongue for that, brother.”

Matter of days, he
came to my house

with about four other men.

"We just wanna
talk to you, brother."

These are the soldiers.

It became clear to me

they were gonna
really hurt me really bad.

And I applied for a gun permit.

The desk sergeant, he says,

"You know we're gonna
probably turn it down anyway.

You don't really need a gun.”

"You know, we're
Muslims and we're Sunni,

and Sunni, I--" you know,
and they was like laughing,

"What's the difference?
They all Muslims.”

Who cares?

You know, don't confuse me
with someone who gives a crap.

You know? Okay,
so you're a Sunni

and you're Jihadist,

and you got this
cause, that cause.

We weren't certain of who
these Black Muslims were

with these skull caps
and these flowing robes.

We didn't trust them.

We knew that
they didn't trust us.

[Shu'aib Raheem]
My wife hated guns.

I purchased a gun anyway.

But I said, "You have
to learn how to use this.

You never know,
you may need it."

When criticism was leveled
against The Nation of Islam,

they reacted in
some violent ways.

They broke into his
apartment some kind of way.

His wife was in
one of the rooms.

[Shu'aib Raheem] She was
in the bed, under the covers.

They lifted the window up,
stepped into the bedroom.

She jumped up and pointed
at him and just started shootin',

and he escaped out the window.

[7]

Oh, God.

She was never
the same after that.

As soon as I came
home, I called the police.

It took them two days
to come to my house.

I asked for a 24 hour guard.

For Black people? [chuckles]

The police didn't care about us.

We never discriminated
against anybody.

I mean, uh, I-- I can't
tell you how many--

how many Black
people lives I saved.

I think we over--
over-define racism

as, uh, something bad,

when in reality,

we want to be with our own kind.

Yeah, you had the slavery,

but think of how
great America is.

What did I ever do wrong?

I-- I wasn't responsible
for slavery or racism

The only way we're
gonna end the racism

is let people decide
for themselves

who they want to be with.

[Al Sheppard] Some cops
became really, like, anti-Black,

but, you know, it was
more of an occupying army

than it was of anything else.

An army of occupation
of the ghetto, you know?

And that's been
through the ages.

The Constitution was
flushed down the toilet.

Policing nowadays, some of them
never have been around Black people.

Everybody is a SWAT member,

they have no communication
with the people on the street.

They just go by in these
smoked out windows and--

More like a Gestapo.

You know, if you can't
get to know the people,

that's not effective policing.

[7]

[Walter Cronkite] Here in
Washington this evening,

six persons reported
killed in a wave of violence

including shooting at a home

owned by Kareem Abdul-Jabar,

the pro basketball star.

[reporter] Two adults
and a child shot,

four children
drowned in a bathtub.

Two other adults, both women,
shot in the head survived.

[Dawud Rahman] The
Nation of Islam actually killed

a family of Sunni Muslims.

Fear. Panic.

It's the most grotesque--

I mean, despic-- I
mean, the-- the news.

They shot a two-year-old
baby in the head.

That was the straw that
broke the camel's back.

Dawud and Salih,

we saw what
happened on the news.

I had one gun
with three bullets.

[chuckles]

.25 automatic.

I wanted a shotgun, and ammo.

To protect out families
and to stop these maniacs.

That was a terrible decision.

But...

Believe it or not, you
researched it a little bit more,

they wanted five guns.

They could have
driven to Nassau County.

The first one, the leader,

didn't have a--
a criminal record.

He could have
bought them legally.

[clock ticking]

[traffic noise]

[man on radio] Temperature
27 degrees in Midtown.

On the scene, Tom Foty reports.

[Tom Foty] The
standoff continues

in an atmosphere
of uneasy quiet.

One of the gunmen lies
wounded and in critical condition.

The man refuses all
police offers of aid,

and the consensus
is that if he dies

something, what,
nobody will speculate,

will happen.

[indistinct radio chatter]

Mussidiq was thirsty.

He kept sayin',
"Oh, give me water."

And Riccio said,
"Don't give him water.

"That's the worst thing you do

with a gunshot
wound to the stomach.”

Then when he started
spitting up green bile fluid,

that mean his bowel
had been ruptured.

And then he was in and
out of consciousness.

We gotta get him outta here.

If they really are
attached to their comrade,

then they're gonna come out
to give him a chance to live.

That was the only
bargaining chip that we had.

[7]

The real difficult
part is waiting.

[Brian Tuohy] You're
just sittin' back waiting.

Just biding time with
nothing getting done.

You feel useless.

Officers think we
have to be strong.

Supermen.

You're expected to take action.

But sometimes, the best
thing to do is nothing at all.

Let emotions wind down.

Those are Harvey's teachings.

He calls it dynamic inactivity.

Well, doing nothing is
certainly doing something,

that's for sure.

[indistinct radio chatter]

[man on radio]

[Harvey Schlossberg]
Around noon time,

another hostage was released

to trade for a doctor.

That's what I look
for in a hostage taker,

that moment of hesitation.

They're finished.

I've got them. They're mine.

Big breakthrough.

This could get
them to surrender.

This community doctor,

he was told, "You stand
a chance of being killed.

I give a lot of
credit to the nurse.

That came with him.

She was very brave.

I thought she was sent
in there to distract us

the way she was dressed.

She was distracting, no doubt.

Whoa!

"Volumptuous.”

We said, "Oh, no, you
can't come in here."

We sent her back
out to change clothes.

The doctor, we frisked him.

He didn't have any
weapons on him.

So then we took
him to see Mussidiq.

He was scared.

They held him at gunpoint.

They didn't believe that
he was truly a physician.

[Shu'aib Raheem] He
gave him a painkiller.

Hooked up a makeshift fluid rack

to hold the saline solution.

They brought the phone in.

A direct line.

We're trying to figure
out a way to end this thing.

[Al Baker] Getting a phone
in to any hostage taker

is major breakthrough.

Now you're
starting to negotiate.

[Harvey Schlossberg]
What I'm tryin' to do is

to find out what
this guy really needs.

I want you to
recognize I'm a person.

I need love. I need help.

Freud believed the solution
was inside the person.

Well, obviously,

I wanted to talk to the police.

Conflicted as I was.

Confused.

Angry.

I was looking for a way out.

[Jack Cambria] Harvey taught
me that anybody can speak.

But the real skill in being
a negotiator is listening.

You have to use
active listening.

Emotional labeling.

Being non-judgmental,
non-threatening.

And when they're yelling
and screaming and insulting,

not accepting that verbal
spear that was just thrown at you.

Deflecting it.

It'll land on the
wall behind you.

They'll be left
unarmed at this point,

and you'll be left uninjured.

It helps in every
aspect of life.

I used to get my best
negotiation practice

when my children were
in their adolescence.

It works at home as well.

[phone ringing]

[Shu'aib Raheem] When you pick it
up, someone answered right away.

His tone was very stern.

I said, "Well, listen,
we need some--"

"You'll get no assurances,
you just come out."

He just wanted me to walk
out there and get gunned down.

He was a complete...

Excuse my French but forgive me,

but there's no
other description.

Asshole.

I stopped talking and
hung the phone up.

We're gonna defend ourself...

to the end.

[7]

[Alice Buckner] It's scary.

You're crying, you know,
your mother's in there.

and the neighbors are talkin',

and people in the hallway,

and people comin'
up to check on me.

Early this evening,

a third hostage was
released by the gunmen.

[Alice Buckner] They
kept saying on the TV

they have enough ammunition
to hold these people for a week,

and I don't know what's
happening at the store.

My mother's not home.

And she's not home.

[7]

[Dawud Rahman] I was,
like, filled with dread.

I was suggesting that
we try and clear up

the-- the mess in
the store, you know,

but, uh, that was like

a naive, uh, suggestion,
you know, uh...

[Shu'aib Raheem]
Dawud was in shock.

He had never been
exposed to anything like that.

I can see the fear in his face.

I was looking at Dawud
and Salih, my friends.

Their lives had been
so tragically affected.

I was in a position to
stop it, and I didn't stop it.

pushed forward
and they followed.

Went along with it.
It's not a good feeling.

Miserable feeling.

I have basically a shy demeanor.

I even consider myself like a...

a self-diagnosed, uh,

Asperger's-- [chuckles]

You know, uh, syndrome.

[Shu'aib Raheem] He was
going to Brooklyn College.

He was a street sketcher.

He would sketch
people's photograph,

for five, ten dollars.

With pencil and charcoal.

That's how good he was.

He could look at you
and just... do it like that.

And people would
pay him for that.

But what was phenomenal
about him was his...

He could blow that horn.
Lord have mercy. Mm!

He would practice...

[call to prayer sounding]

[man chanting]

[Jerry Riccio] The quiet guy,

he put himself in harm's way.

He sat down next to me with
a weight right over his head

and I could have
easily killed him with it.

I nudged Cleve, I says,

"I'll put it right in his head."

He was my gun guy.

Cleve was a good guy.

He had a glass eye.

He was like a weird
look-- especially with that--

the glass eye, it
wasn't the best--

wasn't the best
job in the world.

I was in the service.

I had a machine gun squad.

I says, "Who do you think the
most dangerous guy in the store is?"

He says, "Them."
I said, "No. Me."

[Rosemary Catalano] I don't think that
they believed they could get out alive.

It was a total stalemate.

Botched robbery,
killed a police officer.

It wasn't gonna end there.

They weren't gonna
walk out quietly.

[Harvey Schlossberg] This is
intense hostage negotiation.

Am I gonna say the wrong thing,

and the person who
is a mild problem

all of a sudden becomes a rage.

God forbid, if
somebody gets killed,

you're gonna blame yourself.

Harvey is enormously
tuned in to emotions.

whether they be his or the
people that are around him.

He's the product of a very
sensitive mother and grandmother.

His grandmother came
from Russia to be safe.

The pogroms,

they would surround the Jewish
communities and kill people.

Jews have experienced
lots of suffering

and psychological pain.

I have a need to
make people better.

That's a crazy need.

[7]

[Jerry Riccio] How do
you get out of the store?

Twelve people aren't
running down the stairs

and out the door.

I took out my pocket knife.

Watching them, I could
keep my arm behind the wall,

and draw the
line with the knife,

down, across, up,
down, across, up.

The little white dust
would fall on the floor,

I would smooth
it out with my foot.

Took a long time.

The people that were
sitting against the wall,

terrified, tears.

I can't tell 'em what
my intentions were.

I didn't want anybody
blurting out any information

out of fear.

"Let me go and I'll tell
you what they're up to.

He's got a gun. He cut
a hole out in the wall.”

You-- You're nervous.

The gun is in your waist.

I don't know what's
gonna happen.

The leader comes over to me.

I put my hand on the gun.
I don't have to take it out,

I could shoot him
right through the coat.

I went over there and I see
some men behind the counter.

I said, "What the hell are you
doin'? Get your ass out of here."

You know, "Get your butt
back on the other side.”

Riccio was one of ‘em,
I said, "Man, I told you--"

He said, "All right,
all right, all right.

It's not that easy
to kill anybody.

And people turn around and
say to you, "He's black," this, that.

It's not easy to kill anybody.

[7]

[Shu'aib Raheem] I
was layin' down upstairs

trying to figure out
how'd I get in this mess?

Why did I do this?
Why, why, why?

Takes a lot for a
man to say "I'm afraid."

You know how we are as men.

Hard enough to even
talk about feelings.

Fear is what drove me
every minute I was in there,

that I was afraid to come out.

Scared to death of
what might happen.

Fear, fear, fear,
you know, it's-- it's--

it's crippling.

A gun don't make you a man.

At the end of the day,

doesn't make you safe.

Don't be afraid.

[sniffles]

[Jerry Riccio] The
hostages were terrified.

The black girl named
Fonnie, tears were goin',

shook her up so badly.

When I go to get one
of the walkie-talkies,

I'm asking for Kotex.

Fonnie had gotten
her period in the store.

[7]

And I really believe that that's
when she had her miscarriage

‘cause she was pregnant.

That was enough to send
it over the edge as far as...

this baby was not making it.

Oh, my God! Oh, my
God! Lord have mercy.

[muttering in Arabic]

I'm so sorry to hear that.

She had the nervous breakdown.

Never really came out of it.

Not sleeping at night.

Medication is rippin' up
your body on the inside.

You don't want to do anything.

And you still have a family
you need to feed and maintain.

I'm an only child,
just me and her.

My parents separated
right after this happened.

[Alice Buckner] I feel
like I lost both my parents.

[sniffling]

They have no idea what
they put people through.

People who are injured
and hurt and suffer,

even oppressed,

can become blinded
by their own hurt,

and destroy the lives
of so many people

who did you no harm.

That's the tragedy of it all.

When the victim becomes
that which they fear.

[7]

[traffic noise]

[clock ticking]

-[gunshot]
-[indistinct dialog]

[gunshot]

[indistinct chatter]

[gunshot]

[police radio chatter]

[gunshot]

[indistinct chatter]

[Brian Tuohy] Four
blasts of gunfire.

Maybe they killed the hostages.

-[coughing]
-Where's your plan?

What plan do you have now
that they're killing the hostages?

If I was the commanding officer,

I would have taken
action against them.

Probably with snipers.

If you don't fight fire with
fire, you're never gonna win.

[7]

[gunshot]

Just move one finger,
just move a pinkie,

just give me a
reason to kill you,

and I will do it gladly.

We go back to the coffee
table and laugh about it.

"We killed a guy. Yeah,
Yeah, it had a happy ending.

And you ended up
dead. So, ha, ha."

[reporter] The situation
here in Brooklyn

has gotten much more
tense in the last few moments.

-[gunshot]
- We heard five or six shots

ring out from the
sporting goods store.

[police radio chatter]

[7]

[man on radio] Where
are the hostages now?

The railing that
went around the store

on the second floor,

they had all the guns lined up.

They loaded them all so
that if anybody came in,

they wouldn't have
to stop to re-load.

Now the gunmen come
upstairs, they brought the hose up,

He says, "Take off your
clothes, we're gonna wash you.

We're gonna die, you
gotta go to Allah clean.”

Maybe they were gonna kill me.

Maybe the cops shooting in
the store were gonna kill me.

They don't look at the
shape over the desk.

That's a staircase going up.

If you put a knife
against a sheet rock wall,

it doesn't make any noise.

I felt the knife go through.

And then I pulled
the piece out...

and put it back in.

We have the escape plan made.

[indistinct chatter]

-[man] Whoever's gonna begin--
-All right, I'm gonna begin it,

but I cant begin it because
I'm being squeezed.

-Give me a little room.
-[man] Move back, please.

Help out a little bit, will
ya? Back up. Come on.

-Give us a little room.
-[man 2] All right.

[Benjamin Ward] This
morning, as you know,

there were several
gunshots fired,

and they informed us that they
merely wanted to let us to know

that they were still there.

We immediately spoke to them
on the phone and we told them

we knew that they were there.

[man] Have you made any
decision as to a time limit?

I-- I could just say this to
you, we have plenty of time,

and we have not made
any decisions on time.

[indistinct chatter]

[Al Baker] The Harvey
school of psychology is

you're lookin' to find that
key that opens that lock.

to that guy's head.

[indistinct bullhorn
announcement]

My mother?

[continues indistinctly]

"Son, Ib'n, salaam
alaikum, baby, come out.

It's gonna be okay,
they're not gonna hurt you."

[Gloria Robinson
continues indistinctly]

[Harvey Schlossberg]
Family. I usually tell--

I-- Don't bring them in.

If they had a healthy family,

they wouldn't be in here.

[Shu'aib Raheem] I used to have
conversations with my mother that

that was, like, deep.

She would be up
all night reading.

History, science, philosophy.

She was like a
mentor, a teacher.

She was fragile.

She was an alcoholic.

And I used to get very
defensive and angry with her

when she was criticizing me.

I thought she was naive.

They were just trying to use
her to get me to come out.

To get shot.

When I fired the shots
at the tank, she knew.

She didn't try to
talk to me anymore.

She was so-- I broke her
heart, Lord have mercy.

[7]

We started hearing
them-- [buzzing]

They comin' through
the wall in the basement

while they talking

so nice on the phone.

The radio told us that
the police was on the roof.

The place was surrounded.

We heard this big helicopter.

Hundreds of police.

They got this special
team they put together,

they gettin' ready to come
in and storm the store,

and you givin' me these
niceties over the phone?

I i 3 an

[indistinct chatter]

[man on bullhorn] They say that
they are gonna die in that building

and they want us to
come in and get them.

[7]

[Al Baker] The perps
certainly had evil intent.

Violence. Hate.

Kill the hostages.

Go out in a blaze of glory.

We didn't want to go
out in a blaze of glory.

But, hell, if you're
gonna execute me...

and I got all
these guns in here,

what do you think I'm gonna do?

I'm gonna defend myself.

[whistle]

[Jerry Riccio] All of a sudden,

I heard what appeared
to be a whistle.

[whistle]

This is it, they're
gettin' ready to come in.

This is it. We just kept
sayin', "This is it, this is it."

We went downstairs,
listened to the basement door.

[Jerry Riccio] They
all ran down the stairs,

left us alone.

Well... that's the
chance you gotta take.

I gave Cleve my gun.

I told him everybody
had to go through the hole.

[Alice Buckner] My
mom was cryin', bad.

Cleve took one
look at her and said,

"If I don't help her,
she's gonna get us killed."

Pull yourself together,
get your tissue,

stop cryin',

and let's go so we
can get out of here.

[Rosemary Catalano]
The adrenaline's pumpin'.

Just go.

There's debris on the stairs,

and Jerry says to Cleve,

"I told you to clean
the staircase.”

[laughing]

[Jerry Riccio] Everybody
had to go through the hole.

"Okay, Cleve.
Hold onto the gun.”

[Al Baker] We have people on the
roof to help contain the perimeter.

We had the Smith & Wesson
Model 76 submachine gun.

If the perps come out
blasting at the cops,

you're gonna
have to return fire.

Hatch opens up, out comes
a Black man with a gun,

and Casey and the team
point their guns at him.

[7]

Cleve's holding my handgun.

"There's a handgun comin' up.

It's mine, I got a permit
for it. Don't shoot!"

Harvey taught it's important
for the police officers

to hold back and not fire,

because once one officer fires,

it's really a domino effect.

Hormones such as
testosterone kick into play

and push men to do things.

What a disaster.

Holding your fire is
what negotiation is about.

Now, why that particular guy

popped open the hatch
with a gun in his hand...

defies my logic.

And it turns out, he was
an escaping hostage.

Police were able
to understand that.

Damn good weapons restraint.

A very remarkable escape.

[7]

[7]

We're done. We're finished.
We're not hostages anymore.

[7]

[reporter] Officers ran the
hostages to cars outside...

There I am. Oh, my gosh.

[reporter] The hostages
broke through the wall

-and raced to the roof of the store.
-Oh, my God.

The police then
got them off the roof,

and finally took them away.

Wow.

[clock ticking]

[Shu'aib Raheem] I walked
over there and it was quiet.

I walked a little further
and I seen this hole,

and I said, "Oh, sh--"

Whoo!

[Al Baker] The suspects
lost their collateral.

That must have been
when they realized,

"We're mince meat
now. We're dead.”

I guess it's all over
now, you know?

Seeing a corpse,
I feel like crying.

It really affects me.

I think a human life
is such a precious gift.

You seen where the guy was?

[Harvey Schlossberg] The
crowd, they become angry.

Don't give me all that bullshit.

[Harvey Schlossberg]
"Stay out. Don't kill them."

The crowd got out of hand.

[7]

[reporter] An ugly scene

in which police are
just trying their best

to keep them out of the area
that they have barricaded off.

In the meantime,

we have got all kinds
of missiles being thrown.

Probably even bricks
but definitely glass

as hundreds of
people are running

in every which direction.

[Al Sheppard] Molotov
cocktails, bricks,

they pushed the barricades over.

The shit's hittin' the fan.

You might have a
massacre on your hands.

America's built on violence.

And guns.

That's-- That's our nature.

John Wayne, Hopalong
Cassidy, uh, cowboys and Indians.

It's always-- You know,
we're a violent country.

And we were built on violence.

And it's unfortunate.

[indistinct chatter]

[reporter] As we look
around, police are massing,

and some kind of move
against the sporting goods store

seems to be upcoming.

[indistinct chatter]

[man on bullhorn] The gunmen
stated they are gonna die in that building

and they want us to
come in and get them.

[Shu'aib Raheem] At the
darkest moment of my life,

I had went so far out of
bounds of right and wrong

that I didn't see no
way back for me.

[Harvey Schlossberg] People
think in a train of thought.

One thought pulls the next
thought pulls the next thought.

I'm the thought interrupter.

I told the commanders,
"No. I'm not the person

that kills other people.
I want them out alive.”

Hold your fire.

It was just us in there.

And still they didn't
storm the store.

[Al Baker] Even though we
all bleed blue for poor Steve,

let's use our minds, let's
use our hearts and souls

and let's fix this problem

before it gets to
the violent stage.

It's an internal strength,

the opposite of the
external, explosive strength.

That's true manhood.

Violence is a weakness.

[Shu'aib Raheem] "Please,
reconnect the phone.”

So Salih reconnected
it, and I said,

"Well, okay. Let's talk.”

Benjamin Ward was more calm.

He was Black, he understood
our fears of the police.

Hey! Back!

Hey! Come on!

[Shu'aib Raheem] We
also got that assurance

that they wouldn't
try to beat us to death,

exact this retribution
which they were known for.

We then spent a couple of hours

in just dialog on the telephone

to peck away at their philosophy

that the way to paradise

was to die inside
of that building.

And make them see if
they had a story to tell,

if there was a message to
come out of what they did,

that they would
have to remain alive.

[indistinct radio transission]

They may want to commit suicide

and get the police
officer to do it for them.

The surrender ritual
is the most critical part.

Nobody really knows what
the next move is gonna be.

[indistinct chatter]

[7]

[Shu'aib Raheem] They
wanted me and nobody else...

to lay down my weapons

Walking out there
literally exposed.

[police radio chatter]

I had to trust them.

[man]

Benjamin Ward
actually walked down

and stood in front of the store.

Held his hands out and
showed that he was unarmed.

[man]

[Shu'aib Raheem] I
surrendered to him.

It was over.

[Gerald Lefcourt] Once the terrible
shooting of the police officers occured,

the leadership in
the police department

did all the right things.

Negotiations...

rather than force.

We realized these guys
didn't want to be there.

They got caught in a robbery,

and they were forced back,

and they were forced
into a hostage situation.

What experience
have they ever had

with the police?

It's all been
negative. You know.

All of their brethren have
either been arrested or beat up

or mistreated or abused.

Uh, you know, cops
aren't known historically

for being the most
kindest, gentlest people.

It was revolutionary to
diffuse a deadly situation.

That's now your
responsibility as a cop.

We started to
transcend street justice.

[reporter] Were you
one of the hostages?

Sir, can you tell us what
it was like inside there?

Can you say anything? Was
your life threatened at all?

[indistinct yelling]

[7]

[camera shutters clicking]

It's a Muslim name.
I can't pronounce it.

[laughter]

Shu'aib Abdul Rhaheem.

Alias, Shu'aib Abdul Al Raheem.

[indistinct dialog]

[detective] Attempted
murder, robbery.

[7]

[Shu'aib Raheem] First one
in my family to go to prison.

I hurt my family.

[7]

[Jerry Riccio] The quiet
guy didn't do anything

to make himself
look like a bad guy.

Putting him in prison
with hardcore bad guys

would have been the wrong thing.

[interviewer]
He's still in prison.

Maximum security.

Oh...

You're sure, right? Right?

Whew.

The last guy in the world
I'd think maximum security.

I'm trying to put all
of this behind me.

Because like, uh,

I regret it all.

The fact that I
participated in this incident

you know, it-- I
had to pay for it.

Forty-six years, I feel
like I've done my time.

I would like to be
able to, you know,

have, uh, some
type of life after this.

He wasn't a bad
guy. I don't think,

other than that little
guy that got shot,

I don't think any
of ‘em were bad.

[Shu'aib Raheem] In prison, you
come face to face with your demons.

People would suddenly become
very religious and spiritual.

What's driving them is their
sense of shame and guilt.

Their quest for forgiveness.

The ministers say,
"God forgive you."

It's not quite that simple.

You gotta walk back
through every bad decision,

every person you hurt.

Riccio didn't deserve me
putting a gun in his face.

My religion forbids that.

Police officers out
there doin' they job,

to even fire a weapon in
that direction was wrong.

Your sins. Face them.

It repulses you.

And until it repulses you,

you haven't really
confronted it.

I got a master's degree from
New York Theological Seminary

in Pastoral Counseling,

so I have the training being
the chaplain's aides in prisons.

For over 35 years,

we were like the mediators,
we created the peace.

It-- It's-- It's very, um, uh...

meaningful.

It's very important
that he has come to

this level of understanding.

Should he be forgiven?

By God?

Yeah. He should be.

He should be forgiven.

It's not up to me to decide
whether he gets forgiven or not.

I don't forgive him.

Killing a cop is unforgivable.

That-- I-- I firmly believe
that he should have been

tried and convicted of
Steve Gilroy's murder

and he should have
been put to death.

I made a vow and a promise
that when I come home,

I'm gonna tackle this
prison industrial complex

by trying to stem the
tide of young people

even going to prison.

The children in this area
are suffering from PTSD

because of the violence.

You don't have to become
that which was done to you.

[7]

[Jack Cambria] The police
department, in general

doesn't know who he is.

The general public
doesn't know who he is.

But, very slowly,

police culture
started to change.

The NYPD is the birthplace.

Today, almost every
police agency in the world

has a version of a
hostage negotiation team.

[man] I want to get
you the help you need...

[Jack Cambria] That's all the
foundation that Harvey put in place.

As long as it takes for
them to say, "lI had enough.”

[Shu'aib Raheem] I don't
know Mr. Harvey Schlossberg

but he saved my life.

my co-defendant's life,

and all the people in the store.

[Harvey Schlossberg]
People do change.

Human life, sacred.

It really is.

[7]

[7]

[7]

To have listeners again

that feels good.

[7]

[7]