An Evening with Kevin Smith (2002) - full transcript

Making that movie was fine.

But when we were getting ready
to put it out...

...it was fucking nuts.
We got death threats.

We had 300,000 pieces of hate mail
and three death threats.

Or two. Two-and-a-half death threats.

Because I think one recanted
toward the end.

"I'm gonna fucking kill you!
Well, maybe not."

There was one that I'll never forget
and will take it with me to my grave.

Not the actual missive, but what
it said. I've read it so many times...

I've read it to people so many times
that I committed it to memory:

"You Jews better take the money you
stole from us and buy flak jackets...



...because we're coming in there with
shotguns. Your brothers in Christ... "

The Jews in question were
Harvey and Bob Weinstein...

...who run Miramax and Dimension,
who were originally releasing the flick.

They got it the worst. I was Catholic,
so people would just be like...

..."You ought to know better.
But your Jew buddies will pay."

You don't want to point out
that Christ was Jewish...

...because these people tend
to forget that.

"Jewish? No, he's a Wasp."

But it was insane.

We had to stop receiving mail at the
office. They had a service open it.

We couldn't receive packages
for a year.

When we went to Cannes,
they wanted to put up metal detectors.

The Palais wouldn't let them,
so Miramax hired armed bodyguards.

It was really a kooky time.
And the whole time I'm just like:



"It's a movie with a fucking rubber
poop monster in it." You know?

"Take it easy!"

But people judge it, of course,
without seeing it.

Mostly the people who were attacking
the movie would never see it.

They never bothered.

If they had watched it,
they would've been like:

"We'd be stupid to go after it
because it's not a threat.

There is a rubber poop monster
up there on the screen.

The kid was right."
But they didn't, so you know...

We were the way for the group that
went after us, the Catholic League...

...to go after Disney and Miramax,
who were the original distributors.

They tend to go after Disney
quite a bit.

If you go after Disney,
you get a lot of press.

Particularly if you're charging Disney
with being anti-Catholic.

The weird thing is when the Weinsteins
bought the movie from Miramax...

...and resold it to Lions Gate,
the eventual distributors...

...the Catholic League went away.
They made so much noise about, like:

"We'll take this movie down.
It'll never be seen.

It's a true affront to all Catholics.
God hates it. Blah, blah, blah."

When Lions Gate picked it up,
they were like, "We won."

We were like, "How?
The movie's still coming out."

They were like, "Yeah,
but Disney's not distributing it."

I was always very curious
about the protesters and whatnot.

So when the movie came out,
I got involved.

I read in the Asbury Park Press
that there was gonna be a protest...

...at our theater in Eatontown,
the Sony multiplex.

So I said, "Holy shit. I wanna go."
I read there was gonna be 1500 people.

I said, "I'm bound to know some of them
because I went to church with them.

My mom might be one of them."

I wanna go, and I said to the wife,
"Let's go to the protest."

She was like, "You're fucking nuts."
I said, "We should go. It'll be fun."

She said, "I don't know."

I said, "We'll call Bryan. He'll go too."
My friend Bryan Johnson.

I called him and said,
"You wanna go protest the movie?"

He's like, "I've been dying
to do that for months."

So Bryan came over, and we grabbed
some construction paper.

Like, those big pieces.

We got magic markers and glue
and sparklies, and we made signs.

We're working on our signs really well
because we want to blend in.

And one of them said,
"Dogma is Dogshit."

The other one said,
"To Hell With Dogma. "

Both of us were really
taking our time.

Just, like, not going
outside the lines.

"Is this done?"
"No, a little glitter."

Really went all out.
And then drove over to the multiplex.

So we get there,
and the 1500 is about 15, period.

I see a smattering of people
at the head of the driveway...

...very far from the theater.

I'm like, "Wow, that looks weird.
They must be watching the protest."

We pull up and that is the protest.
So we got out with our signs.

Bryan and I are the youngest
people there by about 50 years.

So it's a bunch of 65-year-old people,
maybe some 50-year-olds.

They're all praying the rosary,
and they have a very large crucifix...

...with our Lord, in his usual pose.

They're all reciting the rosary,
which I know well...

...because I went to Catholic school.

Bryan didn't, so I said,
"Follow after me."

I'm like, "Our father, who art
in heaven... " Bryan's like:

"Lord...

Jesus...

Joseph..."

I'm like,
"He's not in the Our Father!"

We're holding our signs,
reciting the rosary...

...and we notice that nobody
really has any signs.

At least, none that are
nearly as nice as ours.

There's a dude whose sign looks like
it was torn out of the bottom of a box.

Like, just kind of cut out.
And it said, "Dogma is Bad."

It looked like he wrote it in his car
with a pen from his glove compartment.

No glue, no sparklies...

...not a streamer in sight.
Really, just no effort whatsoever.

He's standing next to me.
I have my sign.

He's holding his sign, it's this big.
Mine is like a sandwich board.

We're doing the Our Father.
I'm next to him. He's like:

"Our father, who art in heaven,
hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom... "

He put his sign down because he was so
embarrassed that mine was that great.

And a lady who was about three or four
people over had seen our signs...

...had looked when we were joining the
line or when we'd joined the line already.

She came over and said, "You can't
have that here." I said, "Why?"

She's like, "You can't say
that kind of thing here."

She was pointing at
"Dogma is Dogshit."

She's like, "You gotta get rid of that."
I'm like, "I wanna protest the movie."

She's like, "We don't need that kind of
help. We don't wanna say those things."

I was like,
"But it's true. The movie is."

She said, "Just take the word off.
Take that one offensive word off."

And I said, "But then it just says
'Dogma is Dog."'

She said, "Just take off the two letters."
I said, "All right."

And I bend it up. And so now it says,
"Dogma is Dogsh."

She goes back to her place.
About 15 minutes into the fourth...

We're into the fourth decate.
A news van pulls up.

I'm not lying. News van pulls up.
Channel 12 News, local in our area.

So I'm standing there,
and I'm looking at them.

I'm thinking,
"This'll be interesting."

I think about bolting. I was like, "These
people don't know, they'll never know."

A lady gets out, journalist,
well-dressed, and she has a clipboard.

All of a sudden, she kind of looks
in my general direction.

She goes back to looking around, then
comes back and looks at her clipboard.

So she comes over.
And Bryan's like, "Holy shit."

She comes over. She's looking
at her clipboard and looking at me.

And she's like, "Are you him?"

And I was like, "No, that's him."

You know, because our Lord
was there. And she goes:

"No, are you him? Are you the guy?"

I said, "No, no.
But I get that all the time."

She was like, "Would you mind if I
interviewed you?" I said, "Please."

Because I'm a press whore.
So even, you know, if I'm incognito...

...l'm happy to give an interview.
So she calls the camera guy over.

He starts shooting, and she's like,
"So, what are you doing here tonight?"

I said, "We're protesting this movie."

She said, "Okay. Have you seen it?"
And I said, "No, no."

You know, because I wanted
to be in character.

I said, "No, but they tell me
it's really bad."

She's like, "Right. Have you seen
anything else made by the filmmaker?"

I said, "No, no. Well, I saw Clerks.
That was really funny.

But I'm not gonna watch anything else.
I'm certainly not gonna watch this."

And she's like, "What's your name?"
And I was like, "Bryan Johnson."

You know, and Bryan's like,
"Oh, shit."

And she goes, "Do you have ID?"

And I said, "Yeah."
And she's like, "Can I see it?"

I was like, "It's in my wallet,
and I didn't bring my wallet."

She's like, "Why not?"
I was like, "Well, look at these people."

So she took off, and she's
shooting the rest of the line.

She's still shooting me
and whispering to the camera guy.

Johnson's like,
"We should really go now."

Finally, they took off. Then that
night, on the Channel 12 News...

...sure enough, "Bryan Johnson"...

...was talking about
how bad Dogma was.

My mother called and was like, "There's
somebody on TV looks just like you."

I'm sorry. That was a very long answer,
has nothing to do with your question.

I'm working from preprogrammed bits.

I'm Raquel Rhinestein.

My question is: Are you ever thinking
of making a science fiction film?

A science fiction movie.
I don't know.

I think I have made one already:
Chasing Amy.

Because you go ask any lesbian,
that'll never happen.

Even if, and probably especially because,
the dude is Ben fucking Affleck.

There is a sci-fi idea in me,
I'm just nowhere near doing it yet.

So I don't...
Somewhere down the road.

- Say your name.
- My name's Lela.

Lela. L-E-L-A.

- All right.
- Well, do you...? No, that's okay.

When you said the thing about Chasing
Amy and no self-respecting lesbian...

It's ironic that Adrienne Rich, an
amazing poet who wrote "The Last..."

Are you coming out?

- They all know me. I'm... Anyway...
- Are you out?

Yeah.

Calm down. Calm down. Calm down.

This is college. You all act like
you've never seen a lesbian before.

- So the Chasing Amy question was...?
- I'll rephrase it, given what's happened.

I disliked Chasing Amy, even though
I loved Clerks and your movies a lot.

I think you're done. Next!

I did feel like it made the point
that all a lesbian needs...

...is a good deep-dicking.
- Did you? It's an excellent point!

- No. No. No. No.
- Do you...?

I'm not saying that is
an excellent point.

It's an excellent point you're bringing up.
I've heard this one. Can I...?

I let you go on for, like, two hours.

It is like The Kevin Smith Show.

My feelings on that have been the same
since 1996 when I wrote it...

...all the way up to this very moment
when you said that.

I don't see how someone
can say, like:

"The film strengthens the point that
all any lesbian needs is one good man."

- Is that what you were saying?
- Sort of.

Okay, but we have the idiot character
in the movie, Banky, say that...

...hence deflating the argument.

We put those words into the guy
who's always wrong in the movie.

When the idiot says that, didn't you
get that that's what I was saying?

I got that point, but do you find it
weird that you speak to audiences...

...who feel comfortable yelling "Show us
your tits!" to a woman in the crowd...?

Very, very uncomfortable.

It wasn't maybe your fault, but I think
that movie put that out there.

Stop it. Stop it. This is political.
Very uncomfortable.

- That has nothing to do with this.
- Well, I think it does.

When I first saw the movie,
I thought it was dumb but harmless.

But when I... But I saw that the...

Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait.
Come on, come on!

This is excellent.
Excellent, candid point.

I'm pissed we didn't know you
when we were making it.

That would've been excellent
for the tag line: "Dumb but harmless.

Some bi-curious girl from college."
That would've been cool.

- Finish your point.
- 'Cause all I need is a deep-dicking?

- Pardon?
- Nothing.

I think... Obviously you can't control
the way people take the movie.

But it was frustrating to be a lesbian
at that point when that film came out.

- How old are you?
- I'm 22.

You were...
So that's going back four years?

So I was 18. Did you know you were
straight when you were 18?

No.

Ma'am, I'm still not sure.

And I've got a wife and child.
How irresponsible is that?

All I can do is make movies
the way I wanna make them...

...the way I wanna see them,
as entertaining as possible.

If I can whip a message in there,
that's more than most cats do.

And I feel good. I can sleep
with myself, and a man or a woman...

...at night because of that.
The movies we've made...

...there's always been gay content
in there, would you agree?

You think it's dumb but harmless.

Some people think it's a breakthrough
that really enabled them to come out.

Large portions of the gay community
love what we do.

A very small pocket is like,
"He's a closet fag-hater"...

...not knowing the amount of cock
that I chug myself.

But that's none
of their fucking business.

I've always thrown that in there because
I always felt, from Clerks forward...

Even before I knew we were gonna
have an audience.

When I was writing Clerks...
I have a brother. My brother's gay.

I just outed him to everyone
at Cornell. He's very out.

My brother and I had a discussion
when he first came out about movies...

...and how weird it is to go to
predominately 99.9999% hetero movies...

...and watch the guy and girl
live happily ever after...

...never see himself represented
on the screen...

...unless it's a very swishy
stereotype, i. E. The Birdcage.

Or an ice pick killer.
I thought, "That's pretty shitty.

He can't get into a flick on any level
because he doesn't feel represented."

So I said, "I'm gonna throw a little
gay content in the flicks...

...so my brother will know
it was in there for him."

Because, why the fuck not?

When I found out we had
an audience, I said:

"Fuck it. I'm throwing
lots of gay content in."

Because they're sitting there...
And yes, they are predominately young.

And I do have fans that are like,
"Great movies, man! Wanna get high?"

I also do have some fans,
nobody in this room, mind you...

...that are like,
"Love those movies, man.

But why is there so much
gay stuff in them? Gay's bad."

I always try to fuck with their heads.
Case in point was Chasing Amy.

We make Chasing Amy and have
our first test-screening.

They keep 10 people around to do a
focus group. Ever been to a focus group?

They keep 10 people
and ask them questions.

From 200, they keep 10 around
and ask them questions:

"What did or didn't you like
about the movie? Tell us why."

They give that data to the filmmaker,
and they're like, "Do it better!"

Horrible fucking process. But it's
interesting to hear what people say.

So they talked to one cat
in the audience. He's like...

I won't forget this guy.

He's like, "I like Kevin Smith's movies.
I am a Kevin Smith character.

I am Brodie.
I love the mall and comics.

And I wouldn't fuck
Shannen Doherty either."

If you saw this motherfucker,
he wouldn't have a chance.

I'm in the back, 'cause you can't reveal
yourself or that'll skew the data.

I'm sitting there, chuckling and
listening, and he's like:

"I identify with the Banky character
because it's Jason Lee again.

I dig him, I'm with him, and suddenly,
boom, the dude's gay.

What the fuck's that say about me?"

From the back, below my chair, I was
like, "It means you're fucking gay!"

And the point of the story,
that man is Elton John.

The point is that cat...
Of course, I didn't follow him.

I didn't tag him like a shark and
follow him for the rest of his life.

But the dude had to make
a decision right there.

He either continues being a fan of
our stuff or continues being like:

"Fucking gays scare me. Any dick
that's not mine terrifies me."

Chances are the dude stuck around.

Because we've sold a shitload
of merchandise at our website.

He's gotta be one of them.

I always like to think of it as, like,
I've got them sitting there...

...give them a message, a moral...

...my view of the world.
That's what good filmmakers do.

You can't change or cure the world.
You can say:

"This is it through my eyes.
Do you agree or not?"

And a lot of people seem to agree.
Not a lot, you know.

We've got fans, so they're smart. We'll
lead the world into the 21 st century.

And I'll make a profit on their backs.

You can't be responsible
for your audience to some degree.

Hopefully they get it. If they don't,
you can't hammer it at them.

That's when the movie stops being
entertaining. You're being didactic.

You're just like,
"This is this, that is that."

Dogma runs very dangerously close
to being a didactic movie.

But thankfully, every once in a while,
Mewes makes an ass-fucking joke.

People forget we're talking about
Jesus for a little while.

So it's a dangerous line,
but give me credit.

I have done flicks where they're
far more gay-friendly than most. Yeah?

Yeah.

Thanks.

Don't. Please, stop.

Lela's the smartest one here, because
now everyone knows that she's gay.

So she can easily get a date
at the end of this thing.

People are like,
"You're that gay chick. I'm gay too."

What are you doing after the show...?
Wait, never mind.

See, you can't hold me
responsible for that.

Rock on.

That's a tough balancing act.
Tough balancing act.

Don't like him, need his money.

Just kidding. All right, enough being
political, let's do some dick jokes.

Who's next? This side.

- Okay, my name is Grayden Blue.
- Again?

- Grayden Blue.
- Grayden. All right.

Thank you. I'm starting production
on my own movie very soon...

...and I was wondering if you had
any advice or money for me.

No.

Chap Stick.

Do you have any advice on how
to get money, funding for a film?

Yeah. Head works a lot.

If you don't wanna give head...

Well, I was hoping to not have to do
that if there are easier ways.

If you're very conservative
like yourself...

...credit cards work very well.
You can get a bunch of credit cards.

- I thought about that.
- Do you have any?

I've got one.
It's maxed out already.

- Which is it?
- It's a MasterCard.

- Is it yours or parents'?
- Mine.

- Is it? So you can build on that.
- Yeah.

- Do you have a job?
- Not at the moment.

Here's what you do:
Find a video store...

...like, a mom-and-pop store,
not a chain.

- You don't wanna work at a Blockbuster.
- Dear God, no.

Some of these people
do want to work there.

Make sure you work the desk
so that you answer the phone.

Get a bunch of credit card
applications. Fill them all out.

Say that you're the manager of the
store and you make $50,000 a year.

Then, when they call in to check,
say, "Yes, he works here...

...he is the manager,
and he makes $50,000 a year."

They start sending you credit cards.
That's how I got all mine.

I'd answer the phone
at RST Video and be like:

"Kevin Smith is an excellent manager.
Makes $50,000 a year.

The highest-paid manager
in the video business."

Credit cards are
the best scam on earth.

Get a bunch of credit cards.
That's my advice.

- Cool. Thank you.
- All right.

You're so polite. You're gonna applaud
for everybody that asks a question?

Just like, "It was a good question.
Terrible answer, good question."

For Clerks, you maxed out
your cards and borrowed money.

That's a big leap. What kept you
going while you were making the film?

It just seemed, like, to make sense
at the time. Like, I was a kid...

Sorry.

I was trying to give him
something from my heart...

...and you're sitting there like:

- Are you done?
- I'm done. I'm...

It just felt like it was
the time to do it. I was young.

I was 22, 23 at the time.

If you're gonna do something stupid
like charge a bunch of film stuff...

...on your credit cards,
then do it while you're kind of young.

- My name's Geek.
- What is it?

Geek. You said that sucking dick is
a great way to make money.

I wanted to know if I could
suck yours for, like, five bucks?

All right. Wait. Wait. Wait.

- Anyway...
- Wait. Wait. Wait. Whose five bucks?

Well, I wanna get paid,
because I'm broke now.

So you want me to pay you $5.00.

If you want me to pay you
to suck your dick, I might do it...

...just so I could say I sucked
Kevin Smith's dick.

- Anyway...
- Why...? Wait.

Why does everyone boo that?

- Sucking dick is a good thing.
- You guys are just jealous.

My real question is you were
supposed to make Clerks 2...

...before you made
Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back.

Whatever happened to that script?
Could it be found in...?

I'm still wrapping my head around
the notion of you sucking my dick.

- And your name's Geek?
- My name's Geek.

G, double E, K, I think.

- Do you know the term's origin?
- No. Wanna explain it?

- A geek bites the heads off chickens.
- I could do that.

I would never let you suck my dick
with a name like Geek.

Now if your name was Ron...

Anyway, so what happened
to the script?

- With which script?
- Clerks.

What happened to
the script for Clerks 2?

Clerks 2. You can't get up there and
start talking about dick-sucking...

...then segue into a question.
- You opened yourself up for it.

- Pardon?
- You said that sucking dick...

...was a great way to make money.
I wanna make money.

- I didn't open myself up for anything.
- Sit the fuck down!

They're sending you a message, Geek.

Clerks 2 became
Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back.

I got five bucks!

Another reason you'll never see my
name next to Scorsese, Woody Allen...

...and Spike Lee.
Scorsese speaks a lot at NYU...

...and I'm damn skippy nobody's ever
like, "I'll suck your dick for $5.00!"

Not during the lecture, anyway.

You. Your turn.

That's all right,
that kid stole my question.

That's good.

I was just curious...

...you've had run-ins with the Catholic
League and, most recently, GLAAD.

- I was curious...
- Isn't that weird?

I had my run-ins with GLAAD, yet
I considered letting him suck my dick.

Where's GLAAD now, you know?

I was curious, have you had...? Besides
the whole round with Michael Eisner...

...have you had any confrontational
experiences within the industry?

Paul Thomas Anderson
getting a little angry...

...at your public bash of Magnolia?
- Not at all. I ran into Paul...

...as I was getting my physical
for Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back.

- Isn't it weird that...? Why's that funny?
- I don't know.

You're like, "You and 'physical'
should never be in the same... "

When you're about to direct a movie,
they make you take a physical.

They have to insure the director...

...in case the director drops dead
of a heart attack...

...if he smokes a lot
and eats really bad food.

So I'm getting my physical. I'm sitting
there filling out the paperwork...

...wondering if I'll have
to have my balls grabbed...

...wondering if I'll have to pay for it.
- Five bucks!

Or if he'll pay me.

I hear a guy go, "Kevin, hello."
I look, and it's Paul Thomas Anderson.

I was like, "How are you?"
He was like, "Good."

I was like, "Just getting my physical."
He said, "Me too."

I said, "What you shooting?"
He said, "Movie with Adam Sandler."

He says,
"Good to see you," and he left.

And after he left I was just like,
"Oh, my God.

That was the motherfucker
I bitch-slapped on the Internet."

And he was so classy, you know?

I wasn't even looking.
The dude was behind me.

He could have come up behind me
with a fucking chair and been like:

He was like, "Hey, Kevin." And he
could have then hit me with a chair.

So I'd see it was him.
That would've been my move.

I would have been like,
"Hey, Paul."

If he said something about me.
But he was real classy. That was cool.

I felt bad for my comment.
I was like, "I shouldn't have said that."

Any run-ins with studio execs?

- Who actually did hit me with a chair?
- Yeah. No.

I guess, having to make compromises...
Are there things you held back...

...because of test audiences,
executive decisions, things like that?

You got all serious on me.
We were having fun.

When I worked on Mallrats,
there were notes I didn't like.

Since it was my second movie,
I wound up taking them.

I didn't find the diplomatic way around
avoiding the notes. I bought into it.

For example, there was a scene
in Mallrats where Jay and Silent Bob...

...and Brodie and T.S.
are in the food court...

...talking about scars they've gotten
from going down on girls.

When I handed in the script, they said,
"No audience will find this funny.

It's too racy.
This doesn't belong in a movie."

I was like, "All right." I pulled
it out. I put it in a better movie.

Then there was a sequence where Jay
and Silent Bob throughout the movie...

...were running around
the fucking mall and shit.

One of the running gags
in the first and second draft...

...was they were constantly busting in
on Gwen when she was trying on shit.

And one of the times,
they were in a booth next to her...

...and they were peeking
through a hole in the wall.

It was my homage
to that great cinema epic Porky's.

And Silent Bob starts jerking off.
And he jerks off...

...and he shoots up in the air...

...and it comes over
and lands in Gwen's hair.

She screams, and they
go tearing-ass out.

The next time you see Gwen, when
she meets up with T.S. and Brodie...

...she still has it matted
in her hair.

That was in the script.
They were like, "That's not funny."

I swear, this is a true story.

"That's not funny.
Nobody will pay to see that.

You will turn off an audience
with come-in-the-hair-type jokes."

So I took it out, and then somebody
else put it in their movie.

They didn't take my idea.
Great minds think alike.

They did it, and their movie
made 120 million bucks.

I was perturbed about that. But that
was the only time, during Mallrats.

We were so new to the process,
we believed whatever we were told.

We wanted to make it for $2 million.
They were like, "lt'll be $6 million."

Why? We don't have
to make a movie for 6 million.

It's a couple of kids running around
a mall. It doesn't cost that much.

It's not like it has
a rubber poop monster in it.

They said, "You can't make a movie for
less." I said, "We made one for $28,000."

They're like,
"That's not a real movie, is it?"

I should have known right there. I sat
there going, "I guess you're right."

Maybe it'll be a cartoon one day.

So we bought into it.
You grow older, and you're like:

"Wait, I have more power than this."
You start ignoring certain things.

Particularly bad notes
about removing come-in-hair jokes.

- Thanks.
- Thanks.

On the topic that you
brought out on comic books...

...the "true Hollywood story"
with Superman Lives...

...and whether it was you who didn't want
Tim Burton to go down with it...

...or if he just wasn't happy with what
you'd done with it... What's your take?

This is going back a few years.

In '96, '97, I was commissioned
by Warner Bros...

...to write a script
for a new Superman movie.

And how it came about, I think,
was that somebody saw Mallrats...

...somebody at Warner Bros...

...and was just like...
Watched Brodie and T.S. talk...

...about the Kryptonite condom,
and they were like:

"This guy seems to know
a lot about Superman."

So I got called in for a meeting
at Warner Bros.

They said, "There's a couple projects
that you can rewrite."

At this point, the script for
Chasing Amy had started circulating.

People were like, "He can write."
So they offered me rewrite work.

They said, "We have three projects."
I said, "What are they?"

"One is a remake of an Outer Limits
episode called 'The Architects of Fear. '

The second
is Beetlejuice Goes Hawaiian. "

I was like, "Didn't we say all we needed
to say with the first Beetlejuice?

Must we go tropical?"

And the third was a project
called Superman Reborn.

That's what interested me. I was like,
"You're gonna make another Superman?

I'd love to do that." And they said,
"Well, that's a long shot.

I can't give you that right here.
That has to go through lots of people...

...because it's a big franchise."
I said, "What do I have to do?

Whose fucking dick do I have
to suck to get this job?"

And thankfully, he didn't say his.

He said, "Why don't you take
the script home...

...read it, and tell me
what you think of it."

I read the script and was like:

"This is fucking terrible.
This is a horrible script."

It was really, really bad.

It was kind of like
the Batman TV-show version...

...of a Superman movie.
Very campy.

I went back to Warner Bros.,
sat down with the dude.

He was like, "What did you think?"
I said, "It was quite bad."

He said, "'Bad' meaning good?"
I said, "No, bad. Fucking terrible."

And I'm going on for about five
minutes how bad the script is:

"Did you pay somebody to write this?
Is the writer somebody's cousin?

Who let somebody write this script?

You paid this dude?
Can you get the money back?

Because this is horrendous."

He was looking at me, nodding and
going, "Well, thanks for coming in."

I called my friend Walter in Jersey.
He's a big comic book fan. I was like:

"I went into Warner Bros. And told
them their Superman script sucked.

Revel, revel. Jersey, represent.

Fuck Hollywood!" Walter's like, "Why
didn't you offer to write it better?"

And I was like:

Because I hadn't thought of that.
I said, "Fuck!"

But the next day my agent called:
"They want to see you at Warner Bros."

I said, "Really? All right."

So I went back. It was the same dude
I talked to originally...

...and there was another dude.
The first guy was like:

"Do me a favor, tell him what you
told me about the Superman script."

And I was like, "All right. It's bad.
Sucks. Did your cousin write it?"

Did that for about five minutes,
and they just nodded...

...and then they're like,
"Well, thanks for coming in."

I went home. The next day,
got another call from my agent:

"They wanna meet with you at
Warner Bros. Again." I said, "All right."

Because I really didn't
have much to do.

So I go back, and it's the two dudes
and now there's a third dude.

They're all in a semi-circle of chairs,
and the first two guys are like:

"Tell him what you told us
about the Superman script."

I just imagined it as a kind
of water cooler situation.

One guy's standing at the water cooler
with somebody, and he was like:

"You should hear what the Clerks dude
said about the Superman script."

The other guy's like, "What'd he say?"
He's like, "Fuck it. Just bring him in."

So I told them again, and it went on
like that for a whole week.

I'd go back, there'd be another
person. I kept saying the same shit.

Finally, I got to the guy at the top,
Lorenzo di Bonaventura.

Now there's six to eight guys
at a large table.

They're all like, "Tell Lorenzo
what you told us about Superman. "

I did my spiel, and Lorenzo said,
"What would you do differently?"

I said, "I hadn't thought about it,
but you could try this and that."

He's like, "We'll give you a shot at it."
I said, "All right. Awesome."

He goes, "It's pending
approval of the producer."

I said, "Who's the producer?"
They said, "Jon Peters. Meet with him."

Jon Peters, if you don't know,
is a producer on movies like...

He was an exec producer
on Rain Man.

He was a producer on Batman.

He was a producer on The Main Event,
the Barbra Streisand boxing movie.

He got his start in the business
as Barbra Streisand's hairdresser.

One day, he became a producer.

Because in Hollywood,
you just kind of fail upwards.

So anyway, I'm going
to meet Jon Peters.

I go to his place. And he
was a hard-core producer on Batman.

It was his baby from beginning to end.
When you get to his house, it shows...

...because it's like driving up
to Wayne Manor.

This is a big mansion,
through woods and shit.

It looks like there's
a holographic cave to one side.

So they bring you in, and he shows up
wearing short tennis shorts and shit.

He's a built dude
with a perfect head of hair...

...like well-quaffed, or coiffed.

He says, "They tell me you got
a take on Superman. " I tell it to him.

After I'm done, he's looking
at me, nodding. He goes:

"You know why you and me will do
a good job on Superman?"

I said, "Why?" He's going,
"You and me, we get Superman.

You know why?"
I said, "No."

He said, "Because you and me,
we're from the streets."

Now I grew up in suburban New Jersey.

Never saw a black man
till I was about 28.

I'm the farthest thing from the streets
there are. I grew up on a street.

But not on "the streets."

I'm thinking, "I'm from the suburbs,
you're a hairdresser.

Neither of us are from the street."
But I don't say that. I want the job.

So I said, "Who would you see
playing Superman?"

He said,
"If I had to cast it right now?"

I said, "Yeah."
And he said, "Sean Penn."

And I was like, "Spicoli?"

It was an interesting choice. He's like,
"Did you see Dead Man Walking?"

I said, "Yeah." He's going,
"Look in his eyes in that movie.

He's got the eyes of a violent,
caged animal, of a fucking killer."

And I was like,
"Dude, it's Superman."

He's like, "I got some directives
for you if you move forward...

...some things I want you to do and
don't in the script. Three things, okay?

One, I don't wanna see him
in that suit.

Two, I don't wanna see him fly.

And three, he's got to fight
a giant spider in the third act."

I'm like, "Let's go back to one. When
you say you don't want him in the suit... "

He's like, "Don't wanna see him in it.
It looks too faggy."

And I was just like,
"No fags on the street, I take it."

I don't say that because I want
the fucking job.

He said, "I don't wanna see him fly."

I said, "Well, the suit and flying
define Superman."

He said, "Don't wanna see it.

No scenes where he's flying around
carrying people. Horseshit."

I said, "All right, no flying."

I said, "But the giant spider
intrigues me.

Why that?" And he's like,
"Do you know anything about spiders?"

And I said, "No."

He said, "They're the fiercest
killers in the insect kingdom."

And I was like, "What does that have
to do with our non-flying Superman?"

He said, "There's gonna
be a scene that I want.

When I saw King Kong as a kid, there's
a scene where King Kong's revealed...

...and it's a real big moment.
I want that in this movie.

I want some doors to open up
and a big fucking spider's there."

So I was just like,
"All right. I'll give it a shot."

So I went back to Warner Bros.,
and they said:

"We heard from him. He likes you.
We're gonna hire you and move forward.

Did he bring up the spider?"

I said, "He did! He brought up
the spider. Did he tell you?"

They're like,
"Every day with the spider."

I said, "What should I do?" They're like,
"Do it, but try not to call it a spider.

Can you call it something else?"
I was like, "Thanagarian Snare Beast?"

They're like, "Go."

I was ready to go start writing, then
I was told to write an outline first.

I was like, "What? An outline?"

They said, "Give us an overview
so we can approve the story...

...so you can go write the script.
We need an outline."

I said, "Can I include dialogue?"
They said, "Yeah."

Dialogue's about the only thing
I know how to do, so I wrote 80 pages.

Just an 80-page outline
with tons of dialogue...

...and very few prose passages.

I was in L.A. all this time.
I wanted to go back to Jersey.

I turn it in and say,
"I'm going back to Jersey.

Let me know what you think.
You can reach me at home."

And they said, "Well, first off,
this is 80 pages."

I was like, "It's the outline."

They're like,
"An outline is, like, four pages max."

And I was like, "Well, I'm just
overcompensating 'cause I grew up fat."

They said, "Second off, you can't leave.
You gotta read Jon the outline."

And I said, "What do you mean...?
Read Jon the outline?"

They said, "Yeah. He likes to have
the outlines read to him by the writer."

And I said, "Do I have to fucking
tuck him in when I'm done too?"

So I go back up
to fucking Wayne Manor.

I sit down with Jon.
And Jon puts me in a chair.

He's got a couch
in this huge fucking living room.

He lays down on the couch,
and he goes:

And I said, "What's with that?"

And he's like, "I like to visualize
the movie while it's being read to me.

So I'm looking at it up here."
He was building a little screen...

...in his mind's eye.
This was a screen.

So I was just like, "All right.
Here we go." And I start reading.

Since it's Superman, you tend
to use the term "Superman" a lot.

I didn't wanna keep doing that. Being
a comic book fan, I changed it up.

Called him Kal-El when he was on
Krypton. Man of Tomorrow, Man of Steel.

So I'm reading the first few pages,
when he's a baby on Krypton.

I had to redo the origin. It's Kal-El
this, Kal-El that, blah, blah, blah.

And he's like, "Wait a second.
Wait a second. Who the fuck is Kal-EI?"

And I was like, "Kal-El is Superman."

He's going, "All right. Why?" And I
was like, "That's his Kryptonian name."

And he goes:
I'm like, "Krypton's where he's from."

He's like, "Right, right. Fucking
planet. Boom. All right, all right."

"Go."

So we go back into it and shit,
and I read it.

When I'm all done, he's like, "All
right, I think we got a movie here.

The problem:
You're missing action beats.

Every 10 pages,
something big has to happen."

I said, "What are you thinking about?"
He's like, "It's just an example:

The scene where Brainiac goes to the
Fortress of Solitude to find Superman."

Superman's dead at this point.
Hope I didn't spoil the movie.

"Brainiac's looking for him at the
Fortress. Something should happen.

There should be a big fight."
I'm like, "But Superman's dead."

He's like, "I know, but can't Brainiac
fight something else up there?"

I was like, "Well, like what?"

He's like, "What about, like,
Superman's guards? His soldiers."

And I'm like,
"Why would Superman need guards?

You know, he's Superman. And plus,
it's called the Fortress of Solitude.

Nobody's up there."

He said, "Jesus Christ.
Where is it? Is it in the Antarctic?"

I said, "Yeah."
He's like, "What about polar bears?"

I was like, "Polar bears?" He said,
"Yeah. Have him fight polar bears.

Brainiac's trying
to get in the Fortress.

Polar bears come at him, and he just
fucking kills one, and one runs away.

Because we don't want to piss off
the PETA people."

I said, "You want me to write a scene
where Brainiac is wrassling polar bears?"

He says, "Yeah.
You know anything about polar bears?"

I said, "No, I don't."

He's like, "Polar bears are the
fiercest killers in the animal kingdom."

At this point, I'm just like:

"This dude has way too much access
to the Discovery Channel."

So I get done with my first draft,
and I send it in, and they like it.

They start sending it off to people.
They send it to Nic Cage, Tim Burton.

During this time, we have
the premiere for Chasing Amy.

I invite Jon because I know he
doesn't know anything about my work.

In fact, nobody at Warner Bros.
knows my work...

...beyond having read the script
for Chasing Amy.

I was always afraid somebody
at Warner Bros. Would be like:

"We gave our multimillion-dollar
franchise to the Clerks guy?

Like, he's gonna turn in a script with
fucking Clark jumping on Lois going:

'How many fucking dicks
did you suck?"'

I figured it was fair to invite the
producer of the movie I was writing...

...to see my new movie.

I said, "We're having a premiere
for Chasing Amy. Wanna come?"

He showed up,
and I talked to him the next day.

He was going,
"Interesting. Interesting flick."

Which in Hollywood means
"I didn't like it at all."

He's going,
"You know what I liked?

The gay black guy.
I liked that a lot. I liked his voice."

I said, "Yeah, Dwight is very funny."

He said, "That's what we need
in our movie."

I was like, "You want Dwight?
He'd be happy to do it."

He said, "No. We just need
that voice, that character...

...somebody like him in our movie.
Can't Brainiac have a sidekick?"

And I was like, "Yeah, I guess."

And he's like,
"Give him a little robot sidekick...

...and give him that dude's voice."

I said, "Really? You want the robot
to sound like a gay black man?"

And he said, "That's what this movie
needs, a fucking gay R2-D2."

At this point, the Star Wars
movie was in rerelease.

It opened up that previous weekend,
made like 30 million bucks.

He'd gone to see it again. He was like,
"We need shit like that in our movie.

We need something that we can
make toys of and shit like that.

Like Chewie.
We need Chewie in this movie."

I was like, "You want me to just
fucking write Chewie into the movie?

Superman wrassling Chewie?"

He said,
"No, but something like that.

Maybe Brainiac has a little cute dog,
and we can make a toy out of it.

Because that's what it's about.
We gotta sell toys off this movie."

I said, "I don't know
if that's gonna work."

He said, "Don't tell me it's not
gonna work. I want my Chewie."

I was like, "I got
your fucking Chewie right here."

But I don't say that
because I like the job.

So Tim Burton and Nic Cage
sign on based on my draft.

And I was kind of excited.
That's kind of neat.

Fucking Tim Burton, Batman.
And Nic Cage, you know...

Fucking Nic Cage.

But when Tim Burton
got signed onto the project...

...Tim Burton signed
a pay-or-play deal...

...which means, no matter what happens,
Tim Burton gets paid his directing fee.

At that point, it was 10 million bucks.
5 to 10 million dollars.

Tim Burton, once he signs
the deal, turns around and says:

"I'm gonna bring on my guys
to write a script."

Warner Bros. Was like, "What
about the script we're developing?"

He said, "I don't wanna use that.
I wanna do my own script."

Presumably a version of Superman
where he has scissors for hands.

So they turn around and tell me,
"Kevin, we're done.

Tim wants to go another way with a new
writer." And I was like, "All right."

I wasn't really that upset.
I'd worked on it for two drafts...

...and I got to hang out with
a really fucked up, kooky dude.

A dude who I can tell stories about
for the rest of my life.

And they paid me a lot of money.
I would have done it for free.

I didn't tell them that.
And it was just fun.

I got to work on Superman. I got
incredible access into the DC archives.

People would give me
free Superman shit all the time.

Then I got shitcanned, and I
started throwing Superman stuff away.

Who needs to be reminded?

But I was really reminded the next
summer when I went to the movies...

...and saw a movie
that Jon Peters had produced.

And it was called
The Wild Wild West.

I'm sitting in the theater
watching the movie.

I'm like, "Good Lord,
this is a piece of shit."

But then, all of a sudden...

...a giant fucking spider shows up.

Here's a quick follow-up question:
Did you enjoy Batman?

Since the same people...

Did I enjoy Batman?
Yeah, I enjoyed Batman.

With all its flaws and shit.
Yeah. Absolutely.

When the movie came out,
I had no idea I wanted to be in film.

I just watched movies.
That summer was huge.

You couldn't turn around
without seeing the bat signal.

People were cutting it
into their fucking heads.

It was the summer of Batman. If you
were a comic book fan, it was hot.

I was real deep into it at that point.

I had just gotten back into comics, and
Batman was everywhere, so I was a fan.

But Tim Burton, I guess, like...

Ever since the Superman incident,
people bring me copies of the script.

They buy it at comic book conventions or
the Internet and ask me to autograph it.

I say, "All right."
And I always write, "Fuck Tim Burton."

Because I figure he'll never see it.
But I guess Tim Burton finally saw one.

Because during the summer, right
before Jay and Bob came out...

...and after Planet of the Apes
came out...

...there was a piece that ran
in the New York Post on Page Six...

...in which Burton
chewed me a new asshole.

At the end of Planet of the Apes...
Hope I'm not spoiling it for anyone.

Marky Mark goes back
to fucking present day.

It is fucking Marky Mark.

I don't care
what he calls himself now.

It was just like, "Feel it, feel it."
You know?

The underwear dude.

Marky Mark goes back to the present
day and lands at the Lincoln Memorial.

The Lincoln Memorial has
a monkey's head on it or something.

The cops get out,
and they're all monkeys. He's like:

And the audience is like, "What?"

I'm talking to this dude from the
New York Post named Lou Lumineck.

He's a friend who's been covering
our stuff from the get-go on Clerks.

He used to live
in Bergen County, in Jersey.

So he goes... We were talking
about Planet of the Apes.

I was like, "Did you see it?
What'd you think?"

"It was fucking terrible!"
"It was real bad.

Let's just try to ignore it
and pretend it never happened.

But there's one thing in that movie I
found interesting, a weird coincidence.

You got the Jay and Silent Bob
miniseries?"

I had done this comic book miniseries
called Chasing Dogma...

...that took place between the movies
Chasing Amy and Dogma.

When they leave Chasing Amy,
the comic book story happens.

At the tail end of the comic book,
in the last page, they enter Dogma.

It was a little miniseries
that bridged it, and fun to do.

We used a whole section of it for
Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back.

The whole section with the monkey
came right out of the comic book.

At one point, just like in the movie,
where Jay is imagining...

...what's gonna happen
when monkeys take over the planet...

...or if monkeys took over the planet.
We did that in the comic book.

Same montage. There was one shot
in the comic that wasn't in the movie...

...which was a bunch of apes pulling
the head off the Lincoln Memorial...

...and replacing it with a monkey head.

When I saw Planet of the Apes,
I was like:

"That's fucked up!
I put that in a comic book once."

On the phone with Lou, I was like,
"Pick up your copy of Chasing Dogma.

Go to this page." He looks and goes,
"My God! It's just like in the movie."

I say, "Isn't that fucked up?
Great minds think alike, motherfucker."

He said, "You wanna say something?
We can make a piece for the paper."

I said, "All right."
Because I'm a press whore.

I will do anything
to see my name in print.

So I was just like, "Yeah, great."
Even though it wasn't news.

He said, "What do you have to say
about it?" I said, "I'm really mad.

I feel like I've been ripped off,
and I am contemplating legal action."

We're on the phone, like:

Forty-year-old guy,
30-year-old guy:

So he's like, "You mind if I call
Tim Burton and get a comment?"

I said, "Go ahead. Let's get Tim
in on it. That'll be awesome."

So the piece runs in the paper
two days later on page six.

And it said, "Smith Furious at Burton,"
or something akin to that.

And I read the article, and my quotes
don't come off as like:

"I feel... I'm pissed off."
It says, "He's very pissed off.

He feels ripped off, and he's
currently contemplating legal action."

I'm going,
"That's not what I said at all.

I didn't say it. I was:
What? You know?

That's not in the article.
Where's the...?"

And in the piece it said, "When asked
for comment, Tim Burton said:

'Anybody that knows me knows that
I would never read a comic book."'

Which to me explains fucking Batman.

But it said...
Then the next quote was:

"And I would especially never read
anything created by Kevin Smith."

And I was just like,
"Holy shit, man!"

Like, the claws came out.
The scissor-hands came out.

Because Tim, I don't know
if you've ever seen him in interviews...

I think they did
an A&E Biography on him.

But I've seen stuff with Tim in it, and
he's always like, "I'm a goofy artist."

"I'm Goth, and I just like movie magic."
You know?

Just like a real artsy-fartsy
fucking weirdo.

And he wears the black, and he wears
big fucking Jackie O. Glasses.

And he's got the hair that goes up
and cascades.

He looks like an art-school student.
Always like this: You know?

Doesn't dress nice, like this.

Suddenly, Tim went from being like,
"I'm just a very kooky guy"...

...to "Fuck fat Smith!

Fuck him up his ass!

I'm Tim Burton!
Who the fuck does he think...?

I stole from him? Fuck you!"

You know,
the verbal equivalent in the press.

And I was flabbergasted.
Taken aback.

I'm used to saying shit
about people left and right.

Nobody ever says anything back
because people are fairly political.

But for one brief moment, Tim Burton
was just like, "The gloves are off!

Let's go."

So I called up Lou. I was like, "What
did you do to me? What's going on?"

He's going, "I told you
it would be a page six story."

I said, "I didn't know you would
run it like a serious item."

He said, "Once I got the Tim Burton
quote, I thought it was great."

I was like,
"Yeah, but did you read it?"

He said, "Yeah, it's funny as hell."
I was like, "It's funny to me and you!

Everyone else thinks... I got people
calling me. CNN, the L.A. Times...

...they wanna know when
I'm suing 20th Century Fox.

We were..."

And he said, "Look, man, just be
happy, because he had more to say."

Lou, after we got done talking,
called Tim's publicist.

Tim's publicist's name is Bumble Ward.

I'm not making it up.

Say it one more time.
Tim's publicist's name is Bumble Ward.

There is somebody on this planet...

...named Bumble.

Bumble fucking Ward.
He calls Bumble, and he's like:

"Kevin Smith said this about Planet of
the Apes. Would Tim like to comment?"

And Bumble Ward at first
was just like, "No." Click.

Lou started writing his article.
The phone rang five minutes later.

It was Bumble Ward.

And she said, "Tim does,
in fact, have a statement."

He's like, "What is it?"

She read off that statement
that he printed.

Apparently, Bumble was like, "What
is he, 10? He's got nothing to say"...

...and was talking to Tim like,
"The dude who made Clerks...

...says you stole the ending
of Planet of the Apes from him."

And Tim was like, "He said what?
Get them back on the phone!

Here's my statement: I would never
read anything created by Kevin Smith."

So Lou said, "Be happy that
I went to press as soon as I did...

...because 10 minutes later,
Bumble Ward called back...

...to say Tim has more statements
to make."

Like, apparently, Tim was just like,
"I... Fucking... And say this too!

He's ugly and his mother
dresses him funny.

And fucking Mallrats was stupid.
And fucking... His wife's got big ears!"

You know? Shit.

But he'd gone to press
so he couldn't put it in the article.

I always thought that if I ever
write a book one day...

...a novel or something like that,
and you have to put quotes on the back...

...you know, little review
blurbs and shit.

Like, "It was a great read."
"Smith knocks one out of the park!"

I'm gonna take that Tim Burton quote
and use that as the last quote.

"I would especially never read
anything created by Kevin Smith."

Hi. I'm gonna play the bad guy
in this situation.

Union Board has come up and told me
five times to cut it off. So...

I'm sorry.

Kevin! Kevin!

It's just the way that this is set up.
I'm sorry.

Nothing against you. I've enjoyed
this evening and listening to you.

- Thanks. That's cool.
- Everyone, if you want to...

He'll be out in the lobby
if you want to meet him.

The quicker he goes to the lobby, you
can meet him and chitchat all you want.