American Radical: The Trials of Norman Finkelstein (2009) - full transcript

NORMAN FINKELSTEIN: You
know the famous joke?

A journalist goes around
and asks a Russian, a Pole,

and Israeli the same question.

He first goes to the Russian.

Excuse me, what's your
opinion of the meat shortage?

The Russian says,
what's an opinion?

The reporter then
goes to the Pole.

Excuse me, what's your
opinion of the meat shortage?

The Pole goes, what's meat?

He then goes to the Israeli.

Excuse me, what's your
opinion of the meat shortage?



The Israeli replies,
what's "excuse me."

Norman Finkelstein speaks
for no one but himself

and a handful of people who
have such hatred for America.

A famous English
aristocrat once

said that if a person walked
down the streets of London

telling the truth
to people he met,

he'd probably be killed before
he went a couple hundred

meters.

Excuse me, every single member
of my family on both sides

was exterminated.

Both of my parents in the
Warsaw Ghetto Uprising.

And it's precisely and
exactly because of the lessons

my parents taught me
and my two siblings

that I will not be silent when
Israel commits it's crimes



against the Palestinians.

Norman Finkelstein is a
professor of political science.

He's been at the center of
numerous heated academic and

political disputes.

Who has ever managed
to stifle you?

We look at you, there's a
plethora of books out there.

"The Rise and Fall
of Palestine,"

"The Holocaust
Industry," "Reflections

on the Exploitation of Jewish
Suffering," "Beyond Chutzpah."

You're living proof that
the debate hasn't been

stifled at all, aren't you?

You're not tucked away in some
dusty room unable to speak,

are you?

Today a debate and a new book
called "The Case for Israel."

It's by Alan Dershowitz
who is one of the nation's

foremost appellate lawyers,
Felix Frankfurter Professor

of Law at Harvard Law School.

And why don't we start
with you laying out

the thesis of your latest
book, "The Case for Israel."

Well, I wanted to write
a progressive liberal case

for the two state
solution, which

I think that most
Israelis favor and have

favored for a long time.

I argue in the book that
no country in history

faced with comparable threats,
both external and internal,

has ever tried so hard to
comply with the rule of law.

I compare Israel favorably
to the United States,

in this regard.

Norman Finkelstein,
your response.

I was asked to come in
and discuss his new book.

I went home purchased one copy.

In fact, I purchased two copies.

I read the book very carefully.

I did what someone
serious does with a book.

I read the text, I went
through the footnotes.

I went through it
very carefully.

And there there's
only one conclusion

one can reach having
read the book.

And this is a
scholarly judgment,

it's not an ad homonym attack.

Mr. Dershowitz has
concocted a fraud.

I grew up in Borough Park.

Right now as you're
filming we're

in Ocean Parkway
near Coney Island.

It was a simple neighborhood.

I wouldn't call it poor.

We were not poor
then, we were simple.

My father was a factory
worker, my mother

stayed home with the kids.

I don't have acute
memories of Borough Park.

We were there until
I was 8, 1961.

We moved to an upwardly
mobile, lower middle class

neighborhood.

It's called the Mill Basin.

It's also very near here.

It was all Jewish,
second generation Jews

who were middle level
professionals, accountants,

store owners, smattering
of doctors, a few lawyers.

Very ambitious and
very aggressive.

This was an elbow, an
elbow neighborhood.

Everybody was out to make it.

47 years ago,
Poland and Germany

were witness to the
Warsaw Ghetto Uprising.

And this week I had
the great privilege

of meeting and interviewing one
of the ghettos few survivors.

This is Mary Finkelstein.

MARY FINKELSTEIN: I
remember that my biggest

desire and dream was that if I
ever survive, I will stay tall

and told people the story.

I now am strictly a pacifist
and I believe that if you kill,

you don't achieve.

With the first killing
you already lost.

My parents were survivors
of Nazi concentration camp.

Sometimes I was afraid
to ask because I

thought it was going to be like
opening up the sluice gates.

Everything was going
to come out and I

wouldn't be able to handle it.

I just did not want to know.

My first involvement
publicly and politically

with the
Israel-Palestine conflict

was the Israeli invasion
of Lebanon in June 1982.

The estimates are somewhere
around 20,000 Palestinian

and Lebanese, overwhelmingly
civilians, were killed.

Immediately as the
war began I start

to demonstrate outside the
Israeli consulate right

off 42nd Street.

I was out there every
day, every night

and I had a big poster, which
read "this son of survivors

of the Warsaw Ghetto,
Auschwitz, and Majdanek will not

be silent.

Israeli Nazis, stop the
Holocaust in Lebanon."

I did manage to get all
of that on one poster.

And so I started
to read voraciously

on the Israel-Palestine
conflict.

So now I had both a
political commitment

and a scholarly commitment.

And then, obviously, I'm Jewish
so I had a personal commitment.

And the three came together.

And as I went back and forth
to the occupied territories

chairing the first
intifada, I went

to live with a couple
of Palestinian families

and developed enduring
relationships, in particular

with the fellow up there.

He came in 1988 at the
start of the first intifada.

And Norman, you know, the
very good thing about Norman,

he did not hide the
fact that he was a Jew.

Even it was very dangerous
at that time to tell people

that you are Jewish.

And he came and from the very
first minute we liked Norman,

he liked us.

And we became friends.

NORMAN FINKELSTEIN: I
would go back every summer

and live with the same
families sort of experience

the intifada from the ground up.

And it was a tacit quid pro quo.

They kept me, but
with the expectation

that I would write something.

There was no guidance,
instruction about what

to write, but I
would write something

about what's happening there.

And so each summer
when I came back

I was basically chronicling
it from year to year

and I eventually put
it together as a book.

It was summer 1989 and we
talked together, Norman and I.

And Norman asked
several questions.

He asked me if I like Jews.

And I said, no.

At that moment Norman
revealed the fact

that he was a Jew himself.

I was shocked and
afraid at the same time.

I didn't expect that he is
a Jew, this is one thing.

And I am talking to
someone that I have just

revealed that I hate.

Norman was always a
very political person.

Even in 10th grade, 11th grade,
he was always very political,

he was probably more
political than anybody

that I knew at the time
and we were, many of us,

very political.

Being against the war
in Vietnam was in vogue,

that was the thing to do.

But Norman was truly against it.

You know, I
couldn't understand

why you weren't
torn apart by what

the US was doing in Vietnam.

You had these scenes on
television of little girls

whose flash was
being incinerated.

His mother had an
extraordinary influence on him.

She took the lessons
of the Holocaust

in a different direction than
what many other people do

and that the Jews have
a special obligation

to try to ease the
suffering of humanity

because of what
was done to them.

And she couldn't bear
to see what America was

doing in Vietnam, for example.

And I think Norman was
just completely influenced

by his mother, to
an unhealthy extent.

From early on, in
every facet, my life

as a Jewish person, my
life as an American,

every facet was out of step.

I grew up in this very
peculiar household in which

values were deeply instilled.

I mean, other people gave
lip service to the values,

you know, the equality
of humankind, war

is wrong and so forth.

But in my home it
was not lip service,

it bordered on hysteria.

I mean, my mother reacted to
war not like, oh, it's wrong.

A Sunday morning sermon.

No.

She reacted in an almost
a hysterical rage.

I know we would get together
some evenings, particularly

during heavy political times.

Like during the Vietnam War
or right after the Kennedy

assassination.

And there everyone would kind
of gather around the television

and my mother would normally
be yelling at the television.

She would get very,
very irate over things

that were being said.

She and my younger brother,
Norman, were very similar.

They were both very political?

Extremely.

So very strong view.

The most important thing that
made Norman to be this exact

person, is that his mother
telling him that it was

so painful, so awful, that while
they were going through this

difficult situation, being
face-to-face with death every

moment in their life, nobody
in the whole world cared.

NORMAN FINKELSTEIN:
From my parents,

I got the moral commitment.

But what I got from
Professor Chomsky

was a way to articulate it
intellectually without losing

the passion and commitment.

It was a way to do both.

That's what I got from him.

You read him and there is a
moral force behind his words.

However, sometimes he could
seem to be saying it very dryly,

though not always.

You know, the language
of hoodlums and hooligans

and murderers and thugs.

I think I appropriate
some of it from him.

He entered my life in
an important point.

I had a very tough
time at Princeton.

And I had real doubts about
my ability and capacity.

And he restored it.

He said, you have
something to say.

Well, I met him the time
he was a graduate student.

He was a graduate
student at Princeton

in the Middle East
department working

on the history of Zionism.

And at that time
a book appeared,

a Joan Peters book
"From Time Immemorial"

which was receiving
enormous praise everywhere,

hundreds of laudatory reviews.

The greatest thing since
chocolate ice cream.

Shalom, hello again.

We've been very fortunate
lately in attracting

some major spokesmen
on the Middle East

and we have one
of those tonight.

Joan Peters wrote the book
"From Time Immemorial."

This is a textbook used in the
United States and in Israel.

It's a voluminous
copy on the origins

of the Arab-Jewish conflict.

We sat her down and asked
her her reason for writing

"From Time Immemorial."

Who are the
Palestinians that they

should commend so
much importance

that the life and death
of the world's peace

might depend on it?

It is a scam.

And it must be exposed.

The book was completely
preposterous and worthless.

The book said that there were
no Palestinians in Palestine

until the Zionists came along
and made the desert bloom

and then the Palestinians
began to arrive to Palestine.

It was the book that was
of no value whatsoever.

It's simply recycled very old
and stale Israeli propaganda.

But it was the book
that American Jews

wanted to have because it
completely whitewashed Israel.

And the book was a huge success
and received every accolade

in America until Norman
Finkelstein wrote a long review

article in which he exposed
the spurious scholarship

behind that book.

NORMAN FINKELSTEIN: And
I sent out my findings

to 25 people, typed them up.

And then one Saturday
morning I got a call

from Professor Chomsky.

He said, this is Noam Chomsky.

He said, I read your findings
and they sound right to me.

I answered him.

He told me later I was the
only person who answered him.

And his question
was does it look

as if this is a good topic,
a serious topic to study.

I said, you know, I read
it, it's very solid,

it's a very good topic to study.

But if you go into it,
do it with eyes open.

You are not only going
to undermine this book

and show that it's
a fraud, but you're

going to undermine the whole
US intellectual community.

Everything that's meant to be
controversial today, generally,

it isn't.

But there are certain
issues and certain subjects

where debate can be difficult.

This book is "The
Holocaust Industry"

and Norman Finkelstein
is the author.

Welcome to you, sir.

NORMAN FINKELSTEIN:
Thank you for having me.

Controversial.

I can't not use the word.

It's been overused and
it's [INAUDIBLE], but--

[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH]

I remain faithful to
the horrendous suffering

of my late parents.

Yet the Nazi Holocaust
has long ceased

to be a source of moral or
historical enlightenment.

It has become a straight
out extortion racket.

A handful of American
Jews have effectively

hijacked the Nazi Holocaust
to blackmail Europe.

I read Finkelstein's book,
"The Holocaust Industry,"

when it came out.

I was actually, at that
point, in the middle

of looking at the same
data and I convinced myself

that with respect to part
two of the book, which

is to say the claims
against the Swiss banks,

Finkelstein was certainly
on the right track.

That I would now say
after I have looked

into the matter even
more, that forgetting

the style in which
he was writing,

his conclusions were moderate.

Norman is a very
careful scholar.

And he feels very passionately
about the Holocaust.

His parents are both survivors
of extermination camps

and he was deeply, deeply
involved in their lives

and their tragedies and
so on and knows everything

about the Holocaust.

And when he sees somebody
using it, exploiting it,

you know, demeaning the
memory of the victims

for personal gain,
he didn't like it.

I can understand that.

These Holocaust hucksters
have become the main fomenters

of anti-Semitism in Europe,
as well as in the purveyors

of Holocaust denial.

I do slightly disagree
with the tone of his voice

when he discusses
these matters because I

do feel that remembrance,
especially organized

remembrance, is costly.

It doesn't just happen.

It isn't just done
by volunteers.

And there is no avoiding
something like an organization

that can be called an industry.

NORMAN FINKELSTEIN: This is
not about some construction

of memory, this is about
people using history

for their political purposes.

There is no new anti-Semitism.

This is pure fabrication.

There is a creation
of a new anti-Semitism

to serve the same purpose
as was used for the past 20

years, the Holocaust industry,
to divert attention from what's

being done to the Palestinians.

So everybody is talking
about the new anti-Semitism

instead of what's being
done to the Palestinians.

And, in a wonderful
inversion, to turn

Israel and its supporters
into the victims

and turn the Palestinians
and their supporters

into the victimizers.

Turning reality
totally on its head.

The very first story Norman
told us was when he arrived

in Ramallah in
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] camp.

And not very far from him.

He was close to the incident
when, you know, a boy was shot.

He was, you know,
burning a tire and they

shot and killed the boy.

And Normal collapsed.

He was crying all the time.

For me, it's a surprise
that a man crying.

So he cried, you
know, many times.

When he mentioned this
story he used to cry.

From that, I knew
how deeply Norman

was touched by the situation.

He's very human.

You know, you cannot--

the main thing is
how deep he is human.

My mother did not
like what I had because.

She was afraid.

And she was very guilty.

She felt I was
Frankenstein's monster.

And in this case,
Finkelstein's monster.

I had taken her too literally,
taken it too much to heart.

And she felt I was
destroying myself.

I don't look like that.

No no no.

[LAUGHTER]

Over here.

You remember
[INAUDIBLE] he made it.

OK.

Do you hate it?

No it's fine.

OK, fine.

I don't understand what's
the noose for, though.

It's about strangling
the Palestinians.

Nobody got it, but.

I'm a little too artsy.

No, I get because--

[INAUDIBLE] the Holocaust.

That is what made him famous.

He wrote a book called
"The Holocaust Industry."

The whole point of the book--

You can't block
the [INAUDIBLE]

--Is to trivialize--

I am not blocking it.

The whole point of the book--

That's not the point.

--Was to trivialize and
minimalize Jewish suffering

that took place
in the Holocaust.

That has nothing to do
with the conflict that's

going on in the Middle East.

The only thing
that it does it is

adds to the tension on campus.

His entire career is based on
trivializing the Holocaust.

(CHANTING) Let Norman speak.

Let Norman speak.

Let Norman speak.

Let Norman speak.

This is a strange school.

I'm serious.

You know how often I speak,
I never get demonstrations.

I think this school
is off the map.

I just--

I wanna calm--

I know.

I wanna calm the things down.

You want a successful evening.

They want to make us
jittery, disorient us,

ruin the evening so we have
to not play into their hands.

That's true.

Calm.

If they shout, let
security take care of it.

OK.

but Don't let them
ruin the evening, OK?

OK.

With all due respect,
I'm an old timer,

I know how deeply
frustrating it can

be when you're sitting
in the audience

and somebody goes on for an
hour and a half saying things

that you find utterly
loathsome, repulsive,

and also you think
factually incorrect.

And I think people should
have more than 60 seconds.

As I said, I'll leave it to
the patience of the audience.

When you feel it's
going on too long,

you know how to express
your disapproval.

Otherwise they should
be allowed to go on.

Go ahead.

Hi.

Yeah.

During your speech you made
a lot of references to Jewish

people, as well as certain
people in your audience--

not just people in general--

but certain people, especially
in your audience, to Nazis.

Now, that is extremely offensive
when certain people are German.

And they're also extremely
offensive to people

who have actually
suffered under Nazi rule.

I don't respect that anymore.

I really don't.

I don't like, and I don't
respect, the crocodile tears--

the crocodile tears--

[CLAPPING AND BOOING]

No.

And so, folks,
allow me to finish.

Allow me-- allow me to speak.

Listen, sir.

Allow me to finish.

Allow me to finish.

[INAUDIBLE]

NORMAN FINKELSTEIN: Sir, sir.

I don't like to play--

I don't like to play before an
audience the Holocaust card.

But since now I feel com--

MAN: [INAUDIBLE]
complaining [INAUDIBLE]

Now I feel compelled to.

MAN: You brought [INAUDIBLE]

NORMAN FINKELSTEIN: My late
father was in Auschwitz.

WOMAN: [INAUDIBLE]

My late mother--

please shut up.

[CHEERING AND APPLAUSE]

My late father was in Auschwitz.

My late mother was in
Majdanek concentration camp.

Every single member of my
family on my father's side--

[INTERPOSING VOICES]

On my father's side--

The Jews did not take
arms against the Germans.

My late father was in
Auschwitz concentration camp.

My late mother was in my
Majdanek concentration camp.

Every single member of my family
on both sides was exterminated.

Both of my parents were on
the Warsaw Ghetto uprising.

And it's precisely and
exactly because of the lessons

my parents taught me
and my two siblings

that I will not be silent
when Israel commits its crimes

against the Palestinians.

And I consider nothing
more despicable

than to use their suffering
and their martyrdom

to try to justify the
torture, the brutalization,

the demolition of homes
that Israel daily commits

against the Palestinians.

So I refuse any longer to
be intimidated or browbeaten

by the tears.

If you had any heart
in you, you would

be crying for the Palestinians,
not for [INAUDIBLE]

[AUDIENCE CHEERING]

Can I just [INAUDIBLE]

What?

Can I just calm the
audience [INAUDIBLE]

SPEAKER: [INAUDIBLE]

I've never been in
a crowd like this.

They're nuts.

SPEAKER: Please, this-- whoever
came to this [INAUDIBLE]

I think it's
pretty audacious when

people try to play the
Holocaust card with me.

I think that's pretty nervy.

What percent of the
audience was opposed to me?

About a quarter or a fifth?

A quarter.

DRIVER: Maybe a quarter.

The girl in the dark t-shirt
who was yelling about

the anti-Semitism
throughout the thing--

she began to yell, well,
they're probably turning over

in their graves right now.

Sorry, my parents were
alive most of my struggle,

and they totally supported me.

That one won't work.

It's not like I did
an about-face in 1995

when my parents passed away.

I've been doing this since 1982.

They heard every word.

I never heard an objection.

Believe me.

Sometimes I wonder
whether it's worth it.

As I like to say, speaking as
a devout atheist, thank God

and in His almighty
wisdom, He made us mortal.

We don't have to endure
it through eternity.

ALAN DERSHOWITZ:
Norman Finkelstein

is a classic anti-Semite.

He invokes the oldest
stereotypes against the Jews.

If he were not a Jew--

that is, I don't
think he is a Jew.

As someone once put
it, he's Jewish only

on his parents' side.

If he were not a Jewish person
or a person of Jewish heritage

with a name like Finkelstein,
nobody would have any doubt

that he was an anti-Semite.

It's only because he's Jewish.

Sometimes I feel that
he's a self-hating Jew.

He's certainly a Jew-hating Jew.

INTERVIEWER: [INAUDIBLE]
the same, right?

I suppose that's
the same thing.

He definitely-- his most
vehement and rabid criticisms

are of Jews.

It seems to be.

Why does he hate?

I don't know.

I really don't know, but his
criticisms of Jewish lawyers

are so full of hate and
so full of contempt--

the way that he has singled
out Israel for criticism.

[BIRD CHIRPING]

[CAR HONKING]

[CHATTER]

There's an old
Woody Allen routine

where he talks about
being thrown out

of a metaphysics exam because he
peeked into the soul of the guy

next to him.

I can't peek into Norman
Finkelstein's soul.

I don't know what motivates him.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

I met in my career
a lot of Jews who

have issues with aspects
of their own identity.

The point is look what he does
and the effect of what he does.

He has created a
phantom Israel--

a monster Israel.

There's no relationship to the
real country that I live in.

It's good to be
critical of Israel.

Many Israelis are critical
of Israeli policies.

Many Israelis are
anti-Zionist, even.

I had no problem with people
challenging and critiquing

Zionism, Israel,
Israeli policies.

I would never call a person who
merely did that anti-Semitic.

What Finkelstein does
goes well beyond that.

For me, the Jews from the left
who only see evil in Israel

are probably representing a
problem within themselves.

They are struggling
with their identity.

They're struggling
with their Judaism.

They're struggling
with their heritage.

OK.

For argument's sake,
let's assume it's true.

Let's say I have deep
identity conflicts.

Let's assume it's all true.

What's the relevance?

The only relevant question
is whether what I'm saying

is true or false.

Let's say Einstein had
deep identity conflicts.

How does that influence one's
judgment about his physics?

[MUSIC PLAYING]

WOMAN 1: Is he
[INAUDIBLE] anybody?

WOMAN 2: Do a lot of spice.

He's actually really good.

[CHATTER]

[APPLAUSE]

The Israel question, whatever
you feel about the justice

or injustice of
the establishment

of the state of Israel--

whatever you think about that,
that's a historical question.

There is now a current
political question.

Are the Palestinians entitled
to their self-determination?

There are two people
living in that land.

One people have the
full rights of statehood

in 80% of the land.

And the people who occupied that
land for several thousand years

consecutively are being
denied their right

to self-determination in
20% of their homeland.

Thank you.

[APPLAUSE]

I don't entirely agree
with the previous speaker.

[LAUGHTER]

This isn't is
Israel-Palestinian conflict.

It's the
Israel-Palestinian front

of the Arab-Israel conflict.

A Wall Street Journal
journalist called

Daniel Pearl goes
to Pakistan to do

a story on Islamic extremists,
and he gets kidnapped.

Now they kidnapped him because
he was an American journalist,

and therefore, obviously,
like all American journalists,

he must be a CIA agent.

But once they kidnapped
him, they discovered--

double word score--
he was a Jew, and as

a matter of fact, technically
speaking, an Israeli.

They got so excited
about it that they

made him confess on the camera,
speaking into a video camera

perhaps not unlike this one.

Forced him to
confess on camera, I

am a Jew, the son of a Jewess.

And then they slit his throat.

The people who did that
have not been spotted

at an Israeli checkpoint.

People who did that probably
never saw an Israeli.

No matter what the roots
of this conflict are,

we've evolved into a
situation today in which

in large segments of the
world, at a time when,

in the western
world, anti-Semitism

was almost vanished in
this classical sense.

Large sections of the
world are infected

with do with something
that is almost

indistinguishable
from anti-Semitism.

The entire world community,
save between one and six states

depending on the vote--

the entire world community
believes that the Palestinians

should have their right
to self-determination

in 20% of their homeland.

Israel and the United States
are denying them that right.

It's as simple as that.

And you can drag in the
anti-Semitism, the Holocaust,

Daniel Pearl, and
everything else,

but it can't change
the fundamental facts.

The fundamental
facts are these--

the entire world community
supports a two-state settlement

along the June 1967 borders.

Israel and the United States,
the chief rejectionists

in the world, are opposed to it.

[AUDIENCE CHEERING]

LEN RUDNER: I have many
issues with Mr. Finkelstein's

position, but the
chief among them

is his notion that, really,
this situation which

has persisted in the
Middle East for decades

really comes down to
something very simple.

It's all the fault
of the Israelis.

But I think there are
a number of reasons

that could explain Mr.
Finkelstein's popularity

with those individuals who
support the Palestinian side

of the Middle East question.

First, he is, without doubt,
a well-read and articulate

spokesperson of their cause.

Second of all-- and I have to
really be quite candid here--

the fact of the matter is that
Norman Finkelstein is a member

of the Jewish community.

And to have a member
of the Jewish community

speak out against
the state of Israel

gives his words a certain
cachet that a non-Jew

or a Palestinian spokesperson
simply would not have.

Your name?

Mohammad.

M-O--

H-A--

M-M-E-D?

A-D.

OK.

A fellow writes,
"Two hours have now

passed since leaving the
debate at the U of Toronto,

and my blood pressure and
pulse rate are finally back

within normal limits.

I have one question for you.

Do you, an educated
articulate scholar, really

believe even 1/10 of 1% of
the nonsense you vomit out

on your audience?

Or is it just a
cleverly calculated con

to get attention?"

So I wrote him back saying
it's worse than you think.

I believe 100% of what
I said last night.

And we got into an extensive
email correspondence,

at the end of which
he recommended

that I join the
Flat Earth Society,

and that's where matters ended.

He was funny.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

MARY FINKELSTEIN: When there
are cruel things in front of me,

I simply pull down the
eyes and try not to see it.

The war made my
reason, and my beliefs,

and everything turn
around 180 degree.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

MAN: You shouldn't-- you're
supposed to go in the back.

NORMAN FINKELSTEIN:
I don't care.

MAN: Actually, you
should go in the back.

Go in the back.

You don't know what's
going to happen.

Nothing's going to happen.

Well, you don't know that.

This is a little
different crowd.

We don't have to go
through the [INAUDIBLE].

I can walk in through the front.

Nobody's going to
assassinate me.

Just-- because look
at the crowd here.

Somebody will throw an
egg at you or whatever.

NORMAN FINKELSTEIN:
I don't [INAUDIBLE]

You don't put
yourself in there.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

AUDIENCE MEMBER: Woo!

[APPLAUSE]

[CHEERING]

NORMAN FINKELSTEIN
(VOICEOVER): So

I didn't say a good
word about Israel.

Let's be clear about one thing.

In my view, Israelis have
the right to be there.

They have their right to
exercise self-determination

in what's historic Palestine.

I have no question in
my mind about that.

And I have many friends
who live there--

many people who
I deeply respect.

I have no interest
whatsoever in playing

this game of bashing Israel.

That's not my thing.

But-- but-- allow me the
"but" for those of you

who are snickering.

But just as it
would be shameful--

shameful for any German
during World War II

to give a lecture singing
the praises of Germany.

And just as during
the US war in Vietnam,

for me to sing the praises
of the US amid the horror

and amid the suffering,
I'm not going

to sing the praises of Israel.

When the war is over, when
Palestinians have equal rights,

when there's justice there,
I'll be very happy to join along

with everybody in singing
Israel's accomplishments

and criticizing its faults,
but not while and when

it's torturing the Palestinians.

[APPLAUSE]

OK, this is the
final question.

MAN: Thank you [INAUDIBLE] and
Dr. Finkelstein for your visit.

And my question to you
is why have you left out

the other side of the equation?

Why have you completely not
mentioned Palestinian heroism?

We do have the problem
that every time an effort

is made on the Palestinian
or on the European side

to negotiate an end
to the violent attacks

against Israel--

which I have no fear at all
calling terrorist so long as

you have no fear
calling the leader

of the state of Israel
one of the main terrorists

in the world today.

[AUDIENCE CHEERING AND APPLAUSE]

DRIVER: How did that
one feel Norman?

I would not say I was
in absolutely top form.

DRIVER: You did great, but the
media now has an opportunity

to grab on a couple things.

Like what?

DRIVER: Well, the last question
about Palestinian terrorism.

Well, but I answered it.

DRIVER: Oh, you
did, but the point

is it will be in
the media tomorrow,

so the focus will be on
Palestinian terrorism instead

of Israeli terrorism.

I think it's a
question of priorities.

I spoke for two hours
and people showed

an enormous amount of
tolerance in letting

me speak for two hours.

And therefore, I
have an obligation

to let people have their say.

No, I'm saying things
which deeply upset

many people in the audience.

If they control
themselves for two hours

and showed me their
respect, then I

have an obligation
to let them let out

their feelings and thoughts.

DRIVER: Can't complain
about using the media

to get the debate--

I don't want to-- you see,
I don't want to use the media.

I don't like
expressions like that.

I don't want a success which
is based on ruthlessness--

a success that's based on the
victory of scoundrels-- no.

DRIVER: Did you get a copy of
"The Finkelstein Industry"?

NORMAN FINKELSTEIN: No, mm-mm.

DRIVER: It said
Norman Finkelstein

is profiting from
the Holocaust just

like the industry
that he criticizes,

and using the memory
of his parents

to profit off of the Holocaust.

That's basically what it said.

What do you think
of that, Norman?

Well, it's a
strange way to profit.

To lose your job and be thrown
into exile in a place where

you don't want to be after 50
years of living in New York,

it's an odd sort of
profiteering where

I end up living in
Chicago and losing my job.

There are many anomalies.

I mean, I'd have to be an awful,
awful, irrational, profiteer

to go about things
the way I've done it.

I mean, I'm not complaining.

I'm not saying
that I've suffered

a martyrous life, but the
claim that I made out better

by taking the political
positions that I've taken,

and had I not
taken them, I think

that's a little bit absurd.

I didn't make out so well.

I'm heading towards my
50th birthday this year.

I still don't have
a tenure track job.

I just, for the first
time after a half century,

I got on a tenure track job.

With no certainty that I'll
get the tenure track job,

that doesn't seem
like profiteering.

And it'd be hard
for me to believe

that I couldn't
have made out better

if I didn't act
on my principles--

not complaining, but just
looking at the factual record.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

[CHATTER]

AIRPORT ANNOUNCER:
[INAUDIBLE] reports

the airlines were about
15 miles [INAUDIBLE]

MAN: Everything [INAUDIBLE]

[MUSIC PLAYING]

[ENGINE REVVING]

[SEAGULL CRYING]

I can't say ours
was a happy household.

My father never said a word--

never a word.

My mother, she always
tries to derive lessons

from what she experienced.

She was always
analyzing what happened.

She thought that
in the camps, you

saw the secret of human nature.

So she always was processing
it and reprocessing it

in her mind.

And she said-- even 40
years later, she says,

now I understand
what happened there.

Like suddenly some
link clicked that made

sense of an experience.

So there was no topic
that we would discuss.

Anything would come back to
her experiences in the camp.

Where you could be
talking about a petunia,

it goes right back to the war.

Everything went right
back to the war.

There was another disco
song, which you all

know, "I Will Survive."

And "I Will Survive" is
about a woman whose boyfriend

dumps her or leaves her, and
she said, I'll survive this.

My mother loved this song.

She didn't know the lyrics;
she just knew the refrain.

And the refrain for
her was the war.

So, uh-- [SIGHS]

AIRPORT ANNOUNCER: --service
customers with 100,000-mile

flyers at doorway C14.

We do ask that you
remain clear of the door

until your seating
area is called on.

[CAR HONKING]

DORON COHEN: Last night,
I spent several hours--

several unpleasant hours
reading and rereading

the paper presented
by Dr. Finkelstein,

and I found it disturbing in a
way which is not easy for me.

The paper is suffused
with personal hatred,

and I strongly hope that
when the proceedings

of this conference are printed
that such parts of this paper

will not be included in them.

WOMAN: Now may I invite
Dr. Finkelstein to speak?

NORMAN FINKELSTEIN: We have
an expression in English--

the truth is often a
bitter pill to swallow.

We are supposed to be
seriously examining history,

but you mention a few words
about Jewish collaborators,

and people get so upset.

This is-- I'm sorry to say--

it's a form of
emotional blackmail.

If I'm being invited as the Jew
who's going to denounce Jews,

no, I don't like it at all.

If I'm being invited because
they think my point of view

is important and
it's being repressed,

yeah, that's a
good enough reason.

[APPLAUSE]

TIM SEBASTIAN: Ladies and
gentlemen, good evening to you,

and welcome to a very special
session of the Doha Debates.

And we're here in Britain as
guests of the Oxford Union,

the most famous debating
chamber in the world,

and the inspiration
for the Doha Debates.

NORMAN FINKELSTEIN:
He says Hamas is not

recognized by the EU
and the United States

because Hamas won't
recognize Israel.

The logical question
is, can you name

a single Israeli
government official--

political party-- which has ever
recognized a Palestinian state

within its internationally
legal borders?

Namely--

[APPLAUSE]

I keep writing back
to people, please

don't put me on the
pedestal because you'll

end up being disappointed.

I'm wrong?

MAN: I don't care if you--

NORMAN FINKELSTEIN: I'm wrong?

MAN: Completely wrong.

NORMAN FINKELSTEIN: OK.

How about international law--

the World Court?

Do you agree with that?

If they said occupy
Palestinian territories,

the whole of the
West Bank in Gaza,

do you agree with the Court?

PANEL SPEAKER: That's-- no.

The point-- yes,
I agree with that,

but this also has advisory
opinion, as you know very well.

This was not a binding
decision with the binding force

of the necessity to implement.

Do you agree
with their opinion?

Do you agree with their opinion?

[SIGH] I do travel
a lot to lecture.

However, every
minute that I'm gone,

I'm in agony,
waiting to come home.

I am a very sedentary person.

I like my books, my computer,
my work, and my neighborhood.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

It was very wrenching for me
to have to leave New York,

and I'm currently
teaching in Chicago.

I am not happy
with what happened.

I didn't ask for a lot.

I was earning $18,000
a year at Hunter--

nothing.

And they kicked me out in
the street after nine years.

In my view, there is
one kind of argument

which I think has a certain
amount of credibility.

And it's that kind
of argument that I'm

going to look at this evening.

So the argument goes
something like this--

Palestine has a special
meaning for Jews

that from a biblical
point of view--

from the point of view of the
history of the Jewish people,

Palestine has a
special resonance

for the Jewish people.

I'm not easy to get along with.

I know that.

But I like young people.

I like to be in the classroom.

And I like the play of ideas.

I think ideas are
exciting, and I like

to convey that to my students.

To imagine a Jewish
state in Argentina,

in Uganda, or elsewhere
simply from the point of view

of the Jewish people
makes no sense.

Imagining a Jewish
state in Palestine

make sense for
the Jewish people.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

AMY GOODMAN: We're talking
to Professor Alan Dershowitz.

He's the author of a new book.

It's called "The
Case for Israel."

In debate with Norman
Finkelstein among his books,

"The Holocaust
Industry" and "Image

and Reality of the
Israel-Palestine Conflict."

Now in 1984, when Joan Peters
published the book called

"From Time Immemorial," the
book was universally recognized

by serious scholars
to be a fraud.

Without wanting to
toot my own horn,

I'm widely recognized as the
person who exposed the fraud.

I know that book inside out.

I read it at least
four times, and I went

through all 1,854 footnotes.

I started to read your
book, Mr. Dershowitz.

I then came to chapter 1,
footnote 10, footnote 11,

footnote 12, footnote 13,
footnote 14, footnote 15,

footnote 16--

all of the quotes
are from Joan Peters.

They are so from Joan Peters
that you have a long quote here

from Mark Twain
on pages 23 to 24.

I turned to John
Peters' page 159 to 60.

The identical quote
from Twain with--

with the ellipses in
the-- the ellipses--

Is the Twain quote--
is the Twain quote wrong?

With the ellipses--

Is the Twain quote wrong?

Let me finish, sir.

No, no, no, but the key is--

With the ellipses
in the same places.

The identical quote from
Twain with the ellipses

in the same places.

It's been widely
recorded, as you know.

Yeah?

Really?

Mr. Dershowitz, I then--

What's your point?

Is it a correct quote?

Let me finish, Mr. Dershowitz.

We then have a--

I want to ask you a question.

Is it a direct--

is it an accurate
quote of Twain?

Let's be very clear.

It is not plagiarism to
quote Mark Twain correctly.

Yeah, except--

That's not plagiarism.

--that you cite Mark
Twain and not Joan Peters.

I'm a professor, sir.

I know what plagiarism is.

We have this Yiddish
expression, schmatta.

Schmatta-- it means it's a rag.

Like you use a schmatta
to do the dusting.

If Dershowitz's book
were made of cloth,

I wouldn't even use
it as a schmatta.

[LAUGHS] I'm serious.

I wouldn't even use
it as a schmatta.

I guess you have to know
Yiddish to appreciate that.

His book is such garbage.

I don't know.

And these people are shameless.

But he got his yesterday.

He knows he's in trouble now.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

[INAUDIBLE] comes
before [INAUDIBLE] Israel.

And Jimmy Carter's
war drone mission.

ALAN DERSHOWITZ: In
the radio debate,

he didn't challenge
my positions;

he accused me of plagiarism.

His charge was that
because I used quotations

from Mark Twain, for example,
which he says I originally

found in a woman
named Peters' book,

I had to cite the Mark Twain
quotation not to Mark Twain

himself--

which is of course, what
you're supposed to do,

according to the Chicago
Manual and all other standard

manuals-- but I was obliged
to cite it to the Peters book.

I, in fact, cited
Peter's eight times.

In fact, I didn't find the Mark
Twain quote in the Peters book.

I found it years
earlier when I was

on a show called "The Advocates"
in 1970 And was doing research.

I came upon the Mark Twain
quote for the first time

12 or so years before
Peters wrote her book,

so certainly I was not obliged
to cite Peters for Mark Twain.

As soon as he accused
me of plagiarism,

I went to Harvard
University and I said,

there's been this accusation.

I insist that you
investigate it.

Please put an
investigator on it.

They put Derek Bok, the
former president of Harvard,

with whom I had not had
particularly good relations

over the years.

Derek Bok came to the conclusion
that there was absolutely

no basis for any plagiarism.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

You're listening to
"Worldview" from Chicago Public

Radio, and we'd
been talking today

with Norman Finkelstein,
Assistant Professor

of Political Science at DePaul.

Finkelstein's always had
a controversial edge,

but the controversy never
ends in his conflict

with Harvard's Alan Dershowitz.

It began in the "Democracy Now!"
radio program several years ago

when he alleged that
Dershowitz's book, "The Case

for Israel," was plagiarized.

More recently,
Dershowitz has mounted

a long campaign against
Finkelstein's tenure bid

at DePaul.

The president of
DePaul University

has until about the
middle of this month

to decide on the matter.

SEAN HANNITY: That
was Dr. Finkelstein.

He's a professor at
DePaul University who

might get his tenure on Tuesday
if the university allows it,

but how can people
like this be teaching

our children in the classroom?

ANCHORMAN: Professor,
thanks for joining us.

I'm going to start
us by asking where

things stand on your tenure
battle at DePaul University.

Have you become too hot for
American academia to handle?

ANCHORWOMAN (VOICEOVER):
The American Association

of University
Professors has been

watching Finkelstein's case.

MAN (VOICEOVER) It
would suggest the demise

of the American system of higher
education-- its administrations

could simply act unilaterally
to get rid of faculty members it

chooses not to have around.

PROTESTERS: We won't back down.

PROTESTER: Stop the witch hunt!

PROTESTER: Tenure now.

PROTESTER: We will resist.

[POLICE SIRENS]

PROTESTER: Won't back down.

PROTESTERS: Stop the
witch hunt in your house.

PROTESTER: --teach.

People teach.

PROTESTERS: Let him teach.

PROTESTERS: Tenure now.

We won't back down.

Tenure now.

A few moments ago, DePaul
University and myself

reached a settlement.

This is DePaul
University's statement.

Today we have reached a
resolution of our dispute

with Professor Finkelstein.

As a part of that resolution, he
has agreed to resign effective

immediately.

Professor Finkelstein
is a prolific scholar

and an outstanding teacher.

The university thanks him--

[APPLAUSE]

MAN: Too good for DePaul.

Not true.

The University thanks
him for his contributions

and his service.

JOHN MEARSHEIMER: I know a
great deal about the Finkelstein

tenure case because
DePaul asked me

to write a letter on
Finkelstein, which I did,

and then I followed
the case very closely

from start to finish.

And I think this is
an open and shut case.

I think that Finkelstein
should have gotten tenure.

He's not a teacher.

He's a propagandist.

He's not a scholar.

He simply writes screeds.

The scandal was that DePaul
University ever appointed him

in the first place.

They appointed him because
hard left professors who

didn't care at all about
his lack of scholarship

just liked his
ideological radicalism

and lowered the
standards to appoint him.

So it was a good decision
for DePaul University,

and it was a good decision for
academic standards in general.

What did he expect
Dershowitz was going to do?

He accuses Dershowitz of
being a liar and a plagiarist.

What is he going to expect?

For Dershowitz to keep quiet?

Didn't he know the
kind of connections

that Dershowitz has
in the United States?

So why did he do it?

Why couldn't keep
his mouth shut?

Any normal sane person
wouldn't have done anything.

He writes a whole book.

What did he expect?

I'm remember talking
to him over the summer,

and he didn't think
he would go that far.

I mean, I don't know
Norman being at that naive,

so there has to be some
element of self-destruction.

My own feeling was
that he should downplay

the issue of plagiarism.

I didn't think
that-- first of all,

I didn't think it was
an important issue.

OK, so Dershowitz
is a plagiarist.

Who cares?

It's not significant.

What's significant
is the material

about the historical fact.

And I thought he would
put it a separate article

or just drop it.

I've learned
that certain things

you can change certain
things you can't change, OK?

You go swimming in the ocean.

There's certain waves you
can kind of swim through,

and there are certain
waves that are just

going to overpower you.

And I think as you
go through life,

you learn which waves you can
challenge and maybe overcome,

and which ones are
just too much force.

What one can say about
Norman's work is that,

although his insights
are often brilliant,

he expresses them
sometimes in language

that's overly provocative.

And I would argue that if you're
making controversial arguments,

it's in your best interest
to tone down your language

and to get as much of the
hot rhetoric out as possible.

And I think Norman
does not do that.

[BIRDS CHIRPING]

[CAR ACCELERATING]

[APPLAUSE]

In my view, most of
this talk about civility

is a red herring.

When you consider that
our best universities

eagerly recruit
indubitable war criminals--

whether it was Columbia
that sought out Kissinger,

whether it was Georgetown
which employed Kirkpatrick,

or Stanford which
now has Rumsfeld--

when you consider that
professors in our best

universities advocate torture
and the automatic destruction

of villages after a
terrorist attack--

When you consider
all this, it becomes

clear that the
question of civility--

whether one treats
his or her critics

according to Emily Post's
rules of etiquette.

However real the question
is, is by comparison,

a meaningless sideshow or
just a transparent pretext

for denying a person
the right to teach

on account of his or her
unpopular political beliefs.

Thank you.

[APPLAUSE]

[BIRDS CRYING]

NORMAN FINKELSTEIN: My
last time at DePaul,

the seniors recognized me
for my outstanding dedication

to the graduating class.

And I would be
remiss if I didn't

mention Paul Robeson, who was
my hero when I was growing up.

I discovered him in 1970.

I listen to it now more-- the
spirituals that he's saying.

The other day, I was just
vacuuming my apartment

and I listened to the
spiritual that goes--

PAUL ROBESON:
(SINGING) Some come--

(SINGING ALONG) --crippled
and some come lame.

Bear the burden in
the heat of the day.

Some come walking
in Jesus' name.

Bear the burden in
the heat of the day.

And it suddenly clicked
to me what it meant.

Some people are born crippled
and some people are born lame,

and they have to bear that
burden their whole lives.

So for me, it reminded me, don't
start wallowing in self-pity.

Some come crippled
and some come lame.

We all bear our burdens
in the heat of the day.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

[SHOTS FIRING]

MAN (VOICEOVER): To the
outside world, the conflict

in Lebanon seemed as
sudden as a summer storm.

When the fighting
stopped a month later,

1,200 people had been killed,
most of them civilians.

And the map of where power
lies in the Middle East

had been redrawn in ways
that no one expected.

Many of those involved
here Jerusalem and Lebanon,

and indeed, in the
capitals of the West,

have since admitted that
mistakes and misjudgments were

made.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

WOMAN (VOICEOVER):
After the Holocaust,

I started to think
that maybe I am wrong.

I thought that if we would
have, during the second war,

a country like Israel,
we would be safe.

Well, I started to
think about Zionism.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

[CHATTER]

MAN: [NON-ENGLISH]

NORMAN FINKELSTEIN:
You have a challenge.

INTERPRETER:
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH]

The challenge is to be both
principled and reasonable

at the same time.

INTERPRETER:
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH]

NORMAN FINKELSTEIN: If
you sound reasonable,

you're going to lose the
international community.

INTERPRETER:
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH]

NORMAN FINKELSTEIN: And I
don't think that's the way

to win this struggle.

INTERPRETER:
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH]

CHILDREN: [NON-ENGLISH SPEECH]

It is very important
that we have Americans here

who want to show that not
all the American people are

against the Palestinian rights.

We know when the people
knows the reality,

they are on the reality's side.

[SINGING IN DISTANCE]

NORMAN FINKELSTEIN: [INAUDIBLE]

What's this?

Yeah, yeah.

[LAUGHS]

NORMAN FINKELSTEIN:
What else could I say?

I could have given
a rah, rah talk--

long live armed struggle,
and smash the Zionist entity,

and crap like that.

But A, I don't believe in it,
and B, I think it's pointless.

I did what I can, which
is to talk reasonably

intelligently
about possibilities

for change in the US.

But it's been tough.

There was one woman--

sort of like how a
profound thing comes out

from a simple person.

She was lying in bed, and she's
72 years old, and I asked her,

how old are you?

And she lives in
a little hovel--

rat infested, open sewage.

I said, how old are you?

She said, I'm 12 years old.

I said, 12 years old?

She says, yeah, 12,
because I left Palestine

when I was 12 years old,
and after that, there's

been no life.

So I'm 12 years old.

It was a good line.

You remember things like that.

[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH]

[MOTORCYCLE REVVING]

[MUSIC PLAYING]

After the horror
and after the shame--

INTERPRETER:
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH]

--and after the anger--

INTERPRETER:
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH]

--there still
remains the hope.

INTERPRETER:
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH]

And I know that I can
get in a lot of trouble

for what I'm about to say.

INTERPRETER:
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH]

But I think that the
Hezbollah represents the hope.

INTERPRETER:
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH]

Sometimes I think--

INTERPRETER:
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH]

--it's a very good thing--

INTERPRETER:
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH]

--that Hezbollah inflicted--

INTERPRETER:
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH]

--a huge defeat on Israel.

INTERPRETER:
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH]

You have to keep knocking
them into the head--

INTERPRETER:
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH]

--until they
reach their senses.

INTERPRETER:
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH]

[MUSIC PLAYING]

There is a
fundamental principle.

People have the right
to defend their country

from foreign occupiers
and people have the right

to defend their country
from invaders who

are destroying their country.

And that, to me, is a
very basic, elementary,

and uncomplicated question.

[WATER SPLASHING]

You're going to hit
me hard on [INAUDIBLE]

I'm not scared.

It's always second thoughts.

Should I have said it?

Shouldn't I have said it?

You know, and it--

it's what I feel.

All right.

I know.

My friend [INAUDIBLE]
says, you've

achieved a certain level
of credibility, and one

wrong move, and they're going
to totally discredit you,

you know?

And so you have to wonder
where you should say you think,

but maybe you shouldn't
say it because it

could be used to
discredit you, and I just

don't know the answer to that.

I know it's accurate.

That's what I think, but
then they run with it

and wherever I go,
I start getting

haunted with,
supporter of Hezbollah,

supporter of Hezbollah.

Of course, those
are my convictions,

but do I then provide
them with ammunition

to attack me and make
me an easier target?

I don't know the answer.

I really don't.

Just going to go back to it
in two days, and what happens

happens.

Look, all right?

He's not in the same
class as Hezbollah.

He's not in the position to
lob missiles on northern Israel

and make a third of the
country uninhabitable.

He's not a clear and
present danger in the way

that Hamas is, but what
he and people like him

are are enablers of terrorism.

The people who are creating
a climate incrementally

in which Israel's legitimacy
is no longer considered

axiomatic--

in which violence
against civilians

is no longer
axiomatically ruled out.

I can think of no greater
punishment for him

than him to have to stand
in line to wait for a bus--

for him to have to worry
about the price of food

in the local grocery.

I would think the
best possible solution

for Norman Finkelstein is
to put him down in Israel

and let him see what' it's
like to live as a Jew.

God would laugh.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

INTERVIEWER: You often
call yourself a radical.

NORMAN FINKELSTEIN: Mhm.

INTERVIEWER: What is a radical?

To me it's more than--

qualitatively more than
the usual discontent

a person feels with the world.

I see it as radically
unfair, and therefore it

has to be radically changed.

Other people who
think it's wrong

but the inequities are
not radically wrong.

It's the world.

Who you choose
through whose eyes--

through whose eyes you
choose to see the world?

This is a radically
unfair place.

And it requires
a radical change.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

I think that in
one's life, one

should you try to come to
some sort of settlement--

some sort of point of
acceptance and peace.

But everyone, I think,
finds it a different way,

so sometimes you have to
create a lot of controversy

in order to understand better
and then to reach a settlement.

Some people never
get to that point.

NORMAN FINKELSTEIN: I have
very warm memories of my--

I felt I grew up
in very good times.

You know that song,
(SINGING) those--

you won't know it.

(SINGING) Those were
the days, my friend,

we thought they'd never end.

We'd sing and dance
forever and a day.

We'd fight-- We'd live
the life we choose.

We'd fight and never
lose, for we were

young and sure to have our way.

And that's how I felt. We were
young and sure to have our way.

I had great hopes about
what was going to happen.

The hopes weren't
realized and I think

there were many disappointments
with people along the way.

And now, I'm strong
enough to say there were

great disappointments with me.

I was disappointed in myself.

Many things.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

[MUSIC - MARY HOPKIN, "THOSE
WERE THE DAYS"]

Those were the days, my friend.

We thought they'd never end.

We'd sing and dance
forever and a day.

We'd live the life we choose.

We'd fight and never
lose, for we were

young and sure to have our way.

La, la, la, la, la, la.

La, la, la, la, la, la.

La, la, la, la, la,
la, la, la, la, la, la.

Then the busy years
went rushing by us.

We lost our starry
notions on the way.

If by chance I'd see
you in the tavern,

we'd smile at one
another and we'd say--

Those were the days, my friend.

We thought they'd never end.

We'd sing and dance
forever and a day.

We'd live the life we choose.

We'd fight and never lose.

Those were the days.

Oh, yes, those were the days.

La, la, la, la, la, la.

La, la, la, la, la, la.

La, la, la, la, la,
la, la, la, la, la.

Just tonight, I stood
before the tavern.

Nothing seemed the
way it used to be.

In the glass, I saw
a strange reflection.

Was that lonely woman really me?

Those were the days, my friend.

We thought they'd never end.

We'd sing and dance
forever and a day.

We'd live the life we choose.

We'd fight and never lose.

Those were the days.

Oh, yes, those were the days.